Knicks Morning News (2019.02.05)

It’s amazing to me that this post-trade period is the most optimistic KB has been in years. Not wrong, necessarily, but we shifted very quickly from disbelief and anger over the trade to “Do we really want all three of Durant, Kyrie and Davis?”

Would love to watch AD play for the Knicks, but not if it costs all of our surplus draft capital and young players. As a fan, I prefer to watch and grow with the young players. We liquidated an entertaining team in 2011 to get Melo, and ultimately crippled the franchise on so many levels. (They did hold out and keep Landry Fields). We all want something great to happen, but if we give NO all our kids and draft picks, I fear it will be ground hog day all over again.

Patience. Stay the course, draft and develop the talent, and dangle cash at the big free agents. And don’t settle for second tier talent just to spend the money.

Guys, I think most of KB is focusing on the future wrt what we do with our picks, cap space and trades. No use in debating whether we should have traded KP. in fact, the trade HAS provided the NYKs with more options than prior to it. Just hope KP doesn’t blow up in Dallas with Luka. Most important, don’t fall for Mills’ and Dolan’s spin-gaganda re KP.

Ingmarrr, i agree and understand-however, that of course is the worst case, so Dolan’s Razor. Props by the way to whoever on this board originated the Razor. but the most fun duo ever? that would make it very hard to conclude that this was a good deal for the NYKs.

I actually find this post-KP-trade parsing very entertaining.
Ian Begley (whose reporting I find to be far-less click-baity/narrative-driven than Isola/Bondy) had tweeted out several times since the Phil firing that firing Phil was not the panacea for NYK/KP relationship that maybe a lot of people thought it was. Scott Perry by all accounts is a great guy that everyone loves, who takes relationships very seriously. Fizdale went out of his way to go to Latvia and spend time with KP+family, which seemed to go over very well in KP-land.

So who is left that he’d be upset with? Really it comes down to Dolan and Steve Mills, who are the only people in power that have been there throughout. It seems at least from the outside that Dolan really has stayed out of the fray, and so that leaves Mills as maybe the guy who had a toxic relationship with KP (not placing blame, just describing).

Re: blame, I’m sure there is plenty to go around. No doubt that KP is/has been a diva, that Janis has been Lavar Ball-ing behind the scenes, but that also the Knicks have been a total dumpster fire throughout KP’s tenure here. Tim Hardaway’s quotes from the presser yesterday are pretty revealing though — basically saying he bought fully into what Fizdale+co are building… which pretty much puts the blame squarely in KP’s lap.

The press conference yesterday was also really remarkable in that KP was super non-commital about signing long-term in Dallas to the point where Cuban had to answer the question for him twice. That plus the Janis ass-kissing makes it clear to me that KP is not Duncan/Nowitzki etc, and that while there may be some post-hoc narrative-driving by the Knicks, that he and his handlers are pains in the rear end.

I love how anything negative coming out about KP is considered “spin”. A guy who lets his brother be his agent is not someone who makes good decisions.

Argh, i just wrote a whole long post about how Steve Mills is the worst, and it disappeared somewhere into the etherwebs.

Anyway, my point was that in his post-trade comments, Fizdale basically absolved himself and Perry for the KP relationship issues: “”That’s not a fair assessment to (Knicks GM) Scott Perry, that’s not a fair assessment for me. We just got here.” Noticeably not absolved was Steve Mills.

Then I went on and on about Steve Mills and what does he actually bring to the table? As a GM he was a nonentity in preventing Phil from signing bad contracts and executing bad trades (as opposed to Perry who has gotten reasonable or even good value in pretty much all his trades and contracts, certainly not overtly bad value). As combo GM/POBO he has the highest terrible contract-to-days as GM/POBO ratio possibly in league history with the THJ and Baker contracts. He has always been sold as the relationship guy, but Perry is already that guy. So what does Mills represent other than a superfluous incompetent character who (with Dolan) connects this team to the dumpster fire it has been for the last 20 years?

Who cares if KP is an asshole? Was Jordan? Was Barkley? Was Oscar? Was Kobe? Was Magic? Was Riley? The list goes on. If KP becomes a superstar, which is still possible by the way, the trade was a failure. And the NYKs to date HAVE been a disaster. KP does not want to be KG, toiling for a bad organization. I’m sure he’ll be a highly sought after FA when the time comes.

I actually find this post-KP-trade parsing very entertaining.
Ian Begley (whose reporting I find to be far-less click-baity/narrative-driven than Isola/Bondy) had tweeted out several times since the Phil firing that firing Phil was not the panacea for NYK/KP relationship that maybe a lot of people thought it was. Scott Perry by all accounts is a great guy that everyone loves, who takes relationships very seriously. Fizdale went out of his way to go to Latvia and spend time with KP+family, which seemed to go over very well in KP-land.

So who is left that he’d be upset with?

Maybe he is just a diva with an over-inflated notion of his worth and position in life. We should have packed a case of Midol with this athletic gear.

Tim Hardaway’s quotes from the presser yesterday are pretty revealing though — basically saying he bought fully into what Fizdale+co are building

If only Timmy could shoot 40% from 3 and make $12 million less, I might have liked him.

Who cares if KP is an asshole?

Nobody cares KP was an asshole. Reggie Jackson , Roger Clemens and A Roid where huge assholes but they produced.

KP isn’t a “has been” …. he is a “never was” with his average production and inability to stay on the floor. With his praying mantis physique and his over inflated sense of entitlement not paying him 153M strictly “on the come” and swapping him for a reasonable package was excellent management. I know for us Knick fans with Stockholm Syndrome it is a little hard to believe but…..

What would make this a terrible trade is if we start next season with Kemba Walker and Tobias Harris (both fine players, just not players you trade KP for) as the big acquisitions, thereby cementing in a 48 win 2nd round ceiling for this team for the duration of their contracts.

The funny thing is that recently all the talk here has been about Durant and Kyrie, and suddenly people believe in it. Maybe the people who think we’ll just end up maxing Kemba and Harris are being quiet, but I’d suggest that the uptick in people being open to a positive outcome suggests a turning point in our belief in the current regime? I could be grasping at straws, but this seems like the most optimistic moment on KB since Tyson Chandler was putting up 20-20’s.

Of course, that uptick in belief is also what happened to Charlie Brown right before he fell on his back. This time I’m going to kick that ball all the way to the moon!

Nah, I think most of us fully expect the Knicks to go out an sign Kemba and Harris on the first day of free agency. We just pretend like we were the GM’s because how else would we stay Knicks fans? Just accept that we’re perpetually forked?

I somewhat trust Perry not to chase mediocrity with Kemba and Tobias. If Mills were in charge then that would be another story.

i’m not sure what you expected out of Perry.
He’s had a grand total of 1 draft to work with — and drafted Knox, Robinson, and picked up Trier as an UDFA.

He had no cap space to sign anyone significant.

He had no significant assets to trade other than this KP trade, which most objective observers have said was a good trade value-wise for the Knicks.

what more do you want?

I don’t think people are optimistic. Obviously, we are going to be workshopping everything to the tune of 300 comments a day till July. But I think the majority are scared witless about what we might do with our cap space. Meanwhile, a solid minority foresees problems even if we get KD and Kyrie (too old and too crazy respectively.) You don’t break the habit of expecting the worst easily.

Is there any chance KP might play for Dallas this year? Heard it was a possibility.

I was pretty pessimistic about the Perry hiring. His record before coming here was almost laughably bad and it felt like Mills was just hiring a buddy.

Having said that, the only move I’ve really hated since he’s come on board is drafting Knox (though I REALLY hated that and still do. Like, it might be my least favorite move of the last few years).

It’s easy to think that the worst contract Phil signed was Noah’s, and maybe it was, but when you take into account the NTC and the extra money it’s quite possible it was actually Melo’s. Perry was able to trade that disaster for the pick that turned into Mitchell Robinson, and it turned out Melo didn’t have anything more to offer from a basketball perspective than Noah (hell, even Noah found a job).

Whether or not KP turns into a superstar is pretty immaterial to how that trade will impact us. I’m not rooting against that outcome (except during the 2021 season) because it has zero impact on the New York Knicks. I’ll repeat that if KP was genuinely committed to leaving (again, I don’t blame him) he had tons of options even in restricted free agency that would’ve made our situation very difficult. Under those circumstances trading him made perfect sense, and I standby my opinion that the return was pretty stellar for a guy coming off an ACL tear, a few months away from being a $30M+ AAV guy, and who has a career WS48 of .100. Nothing about what KP does from here on out will change that.

Cuban said KP isn’t playing this season. I don’t recall anyone missing that much time with an acl tear.

@33 I totally agree, but I do think Perry might just be a great cap manager, and Fiz kind of has a rep as a “star whisperer”. They are definitely a tandem that favors a max signing rebuild rather than a slow, draft-based one.

It’s too bad, because I’m starting to get interested in this draft the deeper I dive into it. Keldon Johnson is looking really good right now.

He’s had a grand total of 1 draft to work with — and drafted Knox

To be fair, I think we can hold that against him.

He does have a whiff of competence about him, though. We’ll see.

BTW. my favorite underrated player from the draft went 4-6 from 3 last night. Omari Spellman.

Also, Marvin Bagley had a pretty sick 180 alley oop while totally destroying the Spurs last night. He had a huge game. They should have taken Doncic but Bagley is looking like a solid consolation prize.

It’s too bad this is a one player draft.

Solid Ringer piece on l’affaire KP. Seems like the 12th article they have written on it.

Also, it has a line that makes you think the author might lurk here.

Those Knicks fans whose response to the trade skewed toward downing a pint glass of bleach, the argument goes, were missing the forest for the trees.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/2/5/18211164/new-york-knicks-kristaps-porzingis-star-player

It seems Ainge is pretty set on getting AD no matter what his dad says. Perry should just troll the shit out of Ainge since Boston can’t trade for AD now because of Kyrie:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yarlqc5s plus all 4 of boston’s #1 picks this year

Solid Ringer piece on l’affaire KP. Seems like the 12th article they have written on it.

Also, it has a line that makes you think the author might lurk here.

Those Knicks fans whose response to the trade skewed toward downing a pint glass of bleach, the argument goes, were missing the forest for the trees.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/2/5/18211164/new-york-knicks-kristaps-porzingis-star-player

When the Ringer piece led off with juxtaposing Ewing and KP in a photo I thought the next thing was going to be Bernard Mc Guirk asking “Which doesn’t belong and why?”

That Ringer piece kind if sums up my sadness about the trade, though I totally understand the logic of it and think that the assets acquired are very good.

But yes, putting KP beside Ewing like that is rather silly, although I guess that the idea is that KP is the guy people were hoping might be the next Ewing in our hearts. He was a long way from that, but he did represent hope of a “home grown” star. That’s not gonna happen anytime soon unless the Knicks land Zion.

At least with the Jets we now have Darnold, if not much else.

The ringer article is meant to pull at our heart strings. Totally sentimental nonsense.
That we traded Ewing who was the cirberestone for a bag of balls is not nearly equatable to this scenario. Fuck kp

He is going to screw the mavs with salary and injuries. He wants to get paid before another major injury has him out of the league.

kp should be extremely thankful the front office moved him to dallas…dallas is probably the best possible situation he could have found himself in…

Remember that game last year when Matthews (a guard) manhandled KP into submission? That’s all I needed to know about KP’s game. “Soft and sweet”:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XayQEuktMUc

If I were the Knicks I’d rain first round picks on Atlanta to try to shake John Collins loose

He’s not sexy like Durant and Irving, but why are people so worried about blowing the cap space on Tobias Harris?

because he’s inevitably going to get overpaid and his low variance cuts both ways. he’s not going to wake up as paul george for his 27-30 run. what would you pay for him?

IMO, the KP trade is at least 50% Perry’s fault

Great, so Perry gets half the credit for making the best trade in recent franchise history. Awesome!

if we get Zion we should probably keep him so Why offer for ad?

offering three firsts one of which has a 14% shot at Zion and a frank and Knox, plus Dennis or Mitch package is a better offer than the lakers or what?

Dude so reminds me of Matt Havey circa 2015.

You keep saying this, but Matt Harvey was legitimately one of the best pitchers in baseball for 2 seasons and he also had a huge cocaine problem. Kristaps has never been as good as Matt Harvey and if he likes to party he’s also not showing up to work because he’s binging like Harvey did.

only so many teams have $$. There are 4 max guys (durant, kyrie, butler and Leonard). If we whiff, and they go to the lakers, philly, clips, nets, that means 4 less teams have $$. less competition for harris / middleton / kemba. we should not have to pay those guys the max.

Come on, Zipcode. You’re forgetting that Middleton and Kemba have current teams that you’ll have to outbid. You’re not getting them at a discount.

I know we are shell shocked, but……only so many teams have $$. There are 4 max guys (durant, kyrie, butler and Leonard). If we whiff, and they go to the lakers, philly, clips, nets, that means 4 less teams have $$. less competition for harris / middleton / kemba. we should not have to pay those guys the max. in the case, having kemba / harris / a top 2 or 3 pick / 5 picks in the next 3 years / and a little $$ left to give someone….isn’t bad.

Won’t the Hornets offer Kemba the max? Or at least near it.

Kyrie could also sign with the Celtics, especially if they completed an AD trade. Durant could possibly resign with the Warriors (though I’m feeling Knicks on this one based on the reports). Then you have Lakers/Philly/Clips/Nets/Knicks and other sub-prime destinations (from a free agent perspective) vying for Kawhi and Butler. Whoever of those 5-6 teams doesn’t get them will have a lot to throw at the Middletons and Harris’ of the world.

The plan for this offseason should be relatively simple. Get two worthy max players, or use the cap space to get surplus assets. Those are the only two ways we can make it more likely we win a championship in the next 5-10 years this summer. Any other approach would be a failure.

The only potentially tough decision is whether or not we consider Jimmy Butler a worthy max player. Most people instinctively say no, but I’m not so sure. I know his attitude is grating as hell but his body of work really is impressive, and if we brought him in with KD I still think we’d have a really good team. With him and Kyrie much less so, and there’s where the decision could get tough.

I’m pretty sure our median is ~4.5

Regardless, Barrett has the profile that seems to appeal to Mills and Perry. Knox, Barrett, Mudiay, Smith… these guys belong together.

EDIT: holy shit I just realized those 4 plus Mitch will be our starting lineup next year if we strike out on Zion and free agents.

You’re assuming we end up with the worst record, but there’s only maybe a 50/50 chance at that. I think our median draft pick as of today is at best 5.0 but maybe 5.5 or close to 6.0.

I think Barrett’s going to go #2, or maybe #3. So I don’t see how you think it’s likely we get him, unless you think we orchestrate a trade up for him. If he’s available, sure, I see how he fits the FO’s prototype; but we likely won’t be that lucky in the lottery.

I really like what Perry has done so far. The Melo trade was pretty amazing when you consider the NTC, how big his salary was and how washed Melo was last year. Getting Mitch Rob out of it was HUGE.

The KP trade…compare it to other high profile trades of the last decade and I think its more than a decent haul. No one is really talking about the fact that Wes and Deandre are actually decent players as far as expiring contracts go. If we can flip either of them or both for second rounders, that makes it an even better trade.

Then you have his drafting this year. While people can not like the Knox pick, the Mitchell pick and picking up Trier un-drafted are both pretty awesome moves. And Knox, you know, he’s just a rookie. He could turn out all right.

Then you have the Willy trade which people hate but 2 second rounders for a former second rounder…what would he get today if he was traded?

Mudiay. OK, so people hate that. I get it. We can say that was bad.

Then you have his FA signings. Vonleh and Mario. Mario has been bad but Vonleh’s been good. 50 percent hit rate on low money free agent signings/reclamation projects. That’s not bad to me.

So overall, I give Perry a solid B so far. We have 7 first round picks over the next 5 years and close to 70 million in cap space this summer.

But this summer is where the real test will come. If he can sign two max worthy players (KD, Kawhi or Kyrie) or somehow sign one and get AD without giving up too many assets, then I would say he’s fixed the Knicks, to quote our dumb owner. If he strikes out and maxes two non worthy max players, then he’s fucked up. I would be cool, though, with maybe signing one dude like Tobias Harris and using the rest of the cap to facilitate trades/take on a bad contract and pick up more assets.

Harvey was a legit star pitcher and then he broke. He didn’t put up two seasons with a 2 and 3 FIP completely by accident.

Porzingis has never sniffed 10 WAR across a two year span in the NBA.

Edit: why the heck am I even responding. Well trolled!

The funny thing is that recently all the talk here has been about Durant and Kyrie, and suddenly people believe in it. Maybe the people who think we’ll just end up maxing Kemba and Harris are being quiet, but I’d suggest that the uptick in people being open to a positive outcome suggests a turning point in our belief in the current regime? I could be grasping at straws, but this seems like the most optimistic moment on KB since Tyson Chandler was putting up 20-20’s.

Of course, that uptick in belief is also what happened to Charlie Brown right before he fell on his back. This time I’m going to kick that ball all the way to the moon!

The only reason I’m believing it is because the KP trade sure seems to suggest that they are confident that KD is coming here, probably with another max guy in tow. Before the KP trade, that didn’t seem to be the case.

Yeah, the more apt comparison would be if Porzingis had put up a .250 WS48 in 60 games and then a .200 WS48 in 80 games before getting his second major injury. Or if Harvey had put up a few seasons with a 100 ERA+. Harvey was at least elite when he was on the field for a short while.

Anyway, it may not be a perfect comparison, but there are definite similarities. Porzingis isn’t a rail-huffing douche like Harvey but he’s still a pain in the ass kind of guy who thinks too highly of himself. I don’t miss Harvey and I doubt I’ll miss KP all that much.

I would be cool, though, with maybe signing one dude like Tobias Harris and using the rest of the cap to facilitate trades/take on a bad contract and pick up more assets.

I think you really have to get two of the top guys or punt on the season. Tobias Harris is not a bad player, but if he’s your only big addition, then the team is not likely to be a contender any time soon and then you’ll just be paying Harris $32 million a year to maybe make the team just good enough to not get a top draft pick the following season. You’re not building a contending team out of Tobias Harris’ late 20s while he makes $35 million a year, ya know?

It would be ideal to get either two “value” max players, or at least one plus one “non-value” max player The trick will be, at the very least, to avoid any “faux” max players, or just signing one or two “non-value” max players.

So, in other words, you think that they shouldn’t max out anyone but KD, Irving, Kawhi and Butler (plus theoretically acquiring AD via trade)? I agree with that, but just checking to see if that’s what you’re saying.

@86

Yes, but the comparison is between Harvey and KP’s careers before their first major/year off injury. The comparison you’re making for the end of 2015 doesn’t match after that because KP hasn’t come back. KP is now where Harvey was in 2014 -early 2015 quarreling with management about his injury status and contradicting their claim that he should sit out the entire season rather than return early.

Brian, sort of…more specifically I’m saying don’t sign either Kyrie or Butler unless you have signed either KD, Kawhi or AD, and that the ideal 2-max combo would be two of KD, Kawhi or AD. I’m also saying don’t sign either both Kyrie and Butler; or one of KD, AD or Kawhi if the second guy is a “faux” max player.

Well, we wont be trading for John Wall now. Just ruptured his Achilles:

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1092846136845627393?s=20

For me, the definition of a true “value” max player is someone who either:
-is unstoppable (in an efficient way at a high usage) on offense (Harden, Curry)
-makes everyone on his team significantly better (prime CP3, Jokic)
-is a dominant two-way player (Giannis, Kawhi, AD)
All-time greats like LeBron, Bird, Magic, Jordan are all three.

Somehow you left KD off this list. I think he fits into both the “unstoppable” and “dominant two-way player” categories

Brian, sort of…more specifically I’m saying don’t sign either Kyrie or Butler unless you have signed either KD, Kawhi or AD, and that the ideal 2-max combo would be two of KD, Kawhi or AD. I’m also saying don’t sign either both Kyrie and Butler; or one of KD, AD or Kawhi if the second guy is a “faux” max player.

Oh yeah, sorry, as I wrote it, I realized, “Wait, he can’t possibly think it makes sense to max out just Butler and Kyrie, right?”

Anyhow, yeah, I agree with the idea that the key has to be KD or Kawhi (or AD somehow). I would agree that if none of those three come, then signing just Irving or just Butler (or even the pair of them) would be foolish.

Come on, Perry, tell me you have an under-the-table deal with KD!

@93, exactly. Frankly, I think KD is in the top-10 of all time conversation, and just about everyone in that discussion was either all three or at the very least two of three (Wilt, Michael, LeBron, Russ, Bird, Magic, Oscar, Kareem, West, KD make a nice top-10, especially if KD gets another title or 2). I could see putting any 2 of Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem and Duncan in the top 10 over West or KD, but whatever.)

here’s a quick link to upcoming free agents: https://hoopshype.com/2018/11/27/nba-free-agency-2019-the-top-players/

this year tobias harris is making 14.8 million…the question becomes – what kind of annual average salary raise should he receive: 20 to 30 percent maybe…i’m not sure…

still in all – guys like middleton, harris, bledsoe, rubio, russell, rozier will probably all be earning somewhere between 12 to 18 million next year…

harris at 18 million a year is much different than timmy at 18 million…

this year tobias harris is making 14.8 million…the question becomes – what kind of annual average salary raise should he receive: 20 to 30 percent maybe…i’m not sure…

still in all – guys like middleton, harris, bledsoe, rubio, russell, rozier will probably all be earning somewhere between 12 to 18 million next year…

harris at 18 million a year is much different than timmy at 18 million…

Harris already turned down $20 million a year before the season and then went out and had an even better season than last year. He’s going to be getting $30 million a year. So will Kemba Walker and likely so will Kris Middleton. That’s just what happens when the supply of max-level free agents are much smaller than the demand for them and the cap space allotted for them.

Wow, that John Wall injury makes a brutal contract situation even more brutal for Washington. Don’t they have to try to trade Beal and/or Porter now and begin the process of starting over?

Holy crap, so Wall actually fell and ruptured his already injured Achilles tendon? That’s insane. Talk about terrible luck!

One would hope that the front office has at least learned the lesson from 2010. If you strike out on the top FAs, keep on a holding pattern and accumulate assets. I’m not hopeful that this will be the case. I’m not too worried about Harris, but Kemba Walker would be reminiscent of signing Amar’e after losing the Lebron sweepstakes.

That’s going to be the rub. Hopefully we don’t have to see what they’ll do because they’ll have gotten KD and Irving already.

Does walls contract have any injury protections?

Of not the ownership
Should file for chapter 7

@98 exactly

i wish we could insert images (oh would things get interesting)…here’s the tankathon link again: http://www.tankathon.com/pick_odds

i thought as long as we were no lower than third we’d be in pretty good shape to get a pick between one and three – not so much unfortunately…

as of today we are rocking a winning percentage of around 19%…if we were to keep up that stunning achievement we’ll net a whopping 16 wins this year…largest single season turnaround in wins belongs to the 2007/2008 celtics where they improved by 42…

not impossible to turn around this franchise in one off season – just, very improbable…

all of which is to say: Shoot Low, Boys – They’re Ridin’ Shetland Ponies…

it might be best to temper expectations…there are some good deals to be had on available players this off-season…we just have to hope our front office can identify those players and negotiate good value on any deals…

hmmmmm, maybe i need to go back to wishing for the number 1 pick 🙂

If Milwaukee flames out in the first or second round, when does Giannis start getting itchy to move to greener pastures?

It’s worth keeping in mind that we’re 12 months away from Giannis getting to the same point in his contract that AD currently is.

Is the John Wall contract now the worst in NBA history?

Harris already turned down $20 million a year before the season and then went out and had an even better season than last year. He’s going to be getting $30 million a year.

That’s fucking insane. Whatever team does that is fucked.

When I said I’d be happy with Tobias Harris on a reasonable deal, I was thinking like 4 years, $48mm!

If we strike out in free agency, I know of one team that has a 42m AAV size hole in their cap sheet that they’d be willing to part with for the right price of 8 million 1RPs from the Wizards…….

Here is Bagley…

https://deadspin.com/marvin-bagley-whirls-into-insane-alley-oop-1832357221

What happens if Wall can’t play again. Can the Wiz get relief?

When I said I’d be happy with Tobias Harris on a reasonable deal, I was thinking like 4 years, $48mm!

wow, he turned down 20mm a year…

i was thinking like 3 @ 60mm…tobias doesn’t seem like the kind of guy that gets a 4 year deal..we’ll see…add a competent point guard (rubio, bledsoe, teague) for around 3 @ 54mm, and, maybe with one of the max guys on board you have a winning squad…

basically, i don’t think the sign two max guys approach will work…i don’t think we have enough talent already on our roster for that…

@122 – assuming we don’t luck into Zion, I would be perfectly happy if we ended up with Culver or Deandre Hunter. Hunter is that big wing that you can (try to) put on the 3/4 hybrids that no one can match up with (ie. Lebron, Durant, Giannis, etc). 6’8″ with 7’2″ wingspan, quick feet, strong base — perfect for the new NBA. Especially if the Knicks have some intel on KD+Kyrie, they’ll need dudes who can defend and hit the open 3 while not being ball-dominant.

I mean, holy shit, look at the fucking cap room out there this summer! Harris is going to get paid.

Brian, how do we embed images again?

now that is an excellent use of a visual aid 🙂

if the clips strike out on kawhi…i’d imagine harris would stay there (and, you’re right – they’ll most likely overpay him)…

The Nets and the Los Angeles Clippers were among those teams, but Dallas was not on the list. The Knicks, meanwhile, were told Porzingis was prepared to leave the team and continue his knee rehabilitation in Spain if he was not moved by this week’s league trade deadline.

https://static.nytimes.com/email-content/MSB_10011.html

I came here to link to that Stein story Frank just linked to. Very reassuring, especially since, as Frank notes, Stein is historically much more plugged into the Mavs’ front office than ours

It’s funny, my first reaction was that Cuban came to NY and did a smash and grab. Reading that Stein article, it’s almost the opposite. We took advantage of his aggression and appetite for risk before any news could come out and threaten the deal. The front office, at the very least, appears to have discreetly done their homework and acted very decisively.

It still seems like everyone who thinks we made a good deal thinks that because we have inside info on Durant’s willingness to come here. So if he doesn’t come here, the people applauding us might change their tune. And more depends on if you view Smith as an asset or filler.

Pretty much confirms what I suspected. The Porzingis camp was ready to go somewhat nuclear, which would’ve destroyed any and all leverage we had. The reason it came together quickly is because it had to.

I still don’t hold anything against KP. Players should use every last bit of leverage they have in a league where the owners have essentially written the rules.

But man, KP better start producing soon or he’s going to find that teams would prefer to avoid the headache. There are already rumors that Butler might’ve cost himself a max with his whole shtick and that dude is three times better than KP.

Wow, so you mean most executives who talked shit about us not letting them know our interest in a trade for KP actually liked the deal for our side?

Or maybe Beck and Stein talked to different executives.

I did like the blurb where Janis calls a meeting, sets an ultimatum of 4 destinations KP can be traded to like he’s a shotcaller, and Perry basically says “Fuck You” then trades him to Dallas.

I actually find it super interesting that Dallas wasn’t on the list to begin with — they’ve got Luka, and they have the long history with Dirk, who was supposedly one of KP’s idols. Why in the world wasn’t Dallas on the list?

I dunno, I like the Mavericks, I think Carlisle’s great, I think Cuban is a breath of fresh air (for better or for worse), and I’m a member of Club Luka — but there are just so many red flags here. No surprise that the teams on the list are from big markets. I’ve always been Team Optimism, and so maybe now I’m just seeing this all through rose-colored glasses, but I am now pretty happy we sent him away.

It’s fascinating watching the Pelicans and the Lakers each try to control the spin on this. “The Lakers’ offer was laughable.” “The Pelicans’ demands are outrageous.”

I wouldn’t be shocked if they still get a deal done. The last offer the Lakers apparently made (Ball, Kuzma, Hart, Caldwell-Pope, Zubac and two first round picks while taking Solomon Hill’s money back) really is as good as any team could seriously ask of the Lakers. You might think you can beat that with another team, but you can’t seriously expect the Lakers to give up more than that.

Why in the world wasn’t Dallas on the list?

Did you notice that list had teams from LA and NY – two of the largest media markets and tons of cap space going into the offseason? They’re thinking big. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Lakers or Boston were the other teams.

Am I the only one not seeing geo’s posts?

yes you are. geo is posting selfies but you have to really know him to see them.

posterity edit: this joke is like natasha lyonne, its humor only survived in other timelines

Lavar Ball is torching every bit of LA’s trade leverage with his big mouth. Everytime he opens that trap any front office interested in trading for son shrivels from making a deal knowing he won’t STFU in proceeding to hoist his entire brood upon their roster. It’s a real shame because Lonzo is young with lots of potential to grow. But his dad is going to bring him more trouble than he needs as a promising 21 year old PG with working through some major holes in his game.

The Entourage aspect to this with Janis is kind of hilarious.

Willy was their Turtle. But he was sent packing. Sad.

other than the angle that we had to trade KP to get rid of two contracts we foisted on ourselves, there really is no objective criticism for our return on this deal.

Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

You can see/feel Team KP’s shock/flailing to control the narrative when they said to Shams that they were still going to sign the QO before walking that back later.

This is like someone in the park who swears they’re a Grandmaster level chess player getting checkmated in the first 10 moves.

alright gentlemen – i wanna see someone else post an image, and, then tell me how simple it was…i dare you…i double dare you…

i know you’re being funny here but you know those are sunk costs. The only thing worse than signing THJ and Lee to those contracts would be not making a better move because you didn’t want to be embarrassed by having to dump those same contracts.

They are sunk costs. Choosing to use KP to clear said sunk costs is a whole other scenario.

If clearing those sunk costs through KP gets them KD and Kyrie Irving, then that’s awesome.

Please tell me that the reason we prize Lonzo Trier and DSJ type guards isn’t because we’re going to run an offense like a freewheeling backyard game of 3 on 3.

Suddenly the Knox pick makes a lot more sense.

Hopefully Fizdale thinks he’s getting a whole new team, more or less, next season, so he isn’t bothering teaching these guys anything now. I could actually maybe kind of believe that.

You know, I could buy this. Though it doesn’t explain their fascination with DSJ.

okay then…so we have our link, and on either side of our link we have some basic code to include…

it would seem we need to have everything pretty much in the exact right order in order to make it all work…

so from what i understand the code starts off:

ugh, it keeps erasing any symbols that can be interpreted as code…

okay, substituting brackets for the greater than/lesser than symbols it should look like:

{img src=”https://i.imgur.com/KUUnT9j.png” alt=””/}

okay then…so we have our link, and on either side of our link we have some basic code to include…

it would seem we need to have everything pretty much in the exact right order in order to make it all work…

so from what i understand the code starts off:

ugh, it keeps erasing any symbols that can be interpreted as code…

okay, substituting brackets for the greater than/lesser than symbols it should look like:

{img src=”https://i.imgur.com/KUUnT9j.png” alt=””/}

Yes, that’s it exactly, geo.

That’s why I shared the code as an image, as otherwise, the post will treat the code as, well, you know, code.

Lavar Ball is torching every bit of LA’s trade leverage with his big mouth. Everytime he opens that trap any front office interested in trading for son shrivels from making a deal knowing he won’t STFU in proceeding to hoist his entire brood upon their roster. It’s a real shame because Lonzo is young with lots of potential to grow. But his dad is going to bring him more trouble than he needs as a promising 21 year old PG with working through some major holes in his game.

Lonzo and LaVar are definitely pulling a Kristaps and Janis if Ball is traded to New Orleans.

Not working here either.

To add to what I wrote above, one caveat is that if we sign a true max player, If we don’t have to give up assets for him, like with AD, then it would be less painful for the second max player to be a bit overpaid. This is because you would still have their draft picks and young players to trade and fill in around those guys.

“Hopefully Fizdale thinks he’s getting a whole new team, more or less, next season, so he isn’t bothering teaching these guys anything now. I could actually maybe kind of believe that.”

Glass half full explanation. We have hope that’s correct.

After initially being down about the KP trade, I feel better about it now that more info has come out about Team Porzingis and their mindset. He may turn out to be great, but at these crossroads I think the Knick front office actually did the right thing (as weird as that sounds) and got a decent return that might turn out even better than it looks right now. I know it’s not a popular idea, but there is hope that DSJr will turn into a productive player. Would actually like to see a Frank & Dennis Smith back court get some time together to see how it works. Their games would seem to compliment each other – in theory.

AD will end up a Laker sooner or later

I tried using the basic HTML that Brian suggested, and it did not work. It may just be that his fancy admin privileges allow him to do things that us mere mortals cannot. 🙁

It’s possible! I was able to post geo’s bit, as well, so maybe? I dunno. I’ve never had problems using html code on other sites (like RLYW.net), but it’s possible!

To add to what I wrote above, one caveat is that if we sign a true max player, If we don’t have to give up assets for him, like with AD, then it would be less painful for the second max player to be a bit overpaid. This is because you would still have their draft picks and young players to trade and fill in around those guys.

Yeah, it all turns on getting one of those three true max guys first, like KD, Kawhi or AD. If they can’t get any of them, then they should just punt on next season, as well.

i was under the impression that new orleans was looking to replace AD with at least 2 starters (plus everything else they can get)…

2 or 3 first rounders, accepting a bad contract, and a prospect too boot…

I understand that DSJ stylistically resembles some players we’ve all grown to loathe and naturally that’s going to turn people off to him, but a lot of the commentary here about him is inconsistent with the empirical spirit of the site.

He was very productive as a freshman in the ACC, with comparable numbers to Fultz/Ball/Fox. He struggled badly as a rookie in the NBA, as did all three of the aforementioned guys, but has taken large strides in year 2 largely by increasing his share of shots at the rim and from 3 (and consequently decreasing all forms of midrange garbage).

To be sure, he’s got a loooooooong way to go. His median outcome might be below rotation-level. However it’s pretty odd to see some people who are all in on Frank fucking Ntilikina write off Smith Jr. There really is no coherent explanation for that besides just kinda liking Frank better.

I really don’t understand their motivation for getting out of Hill’s last year. They weren’t a playoff team with Anthony Davis. Leave him out of the deal, get more assets, and let Hill expire next year. You’re not jumping back into the playoffs if you max out Khris Middleton.

It’s super bizarre. I really don’t get it, either.

To be sure, he’s got a loooooooong way to go. His median outcome might be below rotation-level. However it’s pretty odd to see some people who are all in on Frank fucking Ntilikina write off Smith Jr. There really is no coherent explanation for that besides just kinda liking Frank better.

I’m assuming they see Frank as trade chattel, as well.

I really don’t understand their motivation for getting out of Hill’s last year. They weren’t a playoff team with Anthony Davis. Leave him out of the deal, get more assets, and let Hill expire next year. You’re not jumping back into the playoffs if you max out Khris Middleton.

Maybe they just want to screw over the Lakers, since acquiring Hill after giving up so many other assets to get AD will make it very hard for them to get far enough under the cap to also sign Kyrie?

His median outcome might be below rotation-level. However it’s pretty odd to see some people who are all in on Frank fucking Ntilikina write off Smith Jr.

DSJ just lauded the fact that we practically have no NBA level offensive system in place.

They are sunk costs. Choosing to use KP to clear said sunk costs is a whole other scenario.

If clearing those sunk costs through KP gets them KD and Kyrie Irving, then that’s awesome.

Once you realize KP isn’t somebody you’re going to max you just kinda have to look for the best possible deals, right? Is there an asset rich team that was going to give us picks and young players for a dude who’d torn his ACL and hadn’t set foot on the hardwood since? A guy who isn’t really giving you any certainty about what he’s gonna do on his next contract which you’ll have to give to him this summer without ever having seen him play? A guy with his brother as his agent who seems like a total weasel in over his head?

I really don’t think that deal was out there. A team like Boston isn’t going to give you the warchest when they’re potential Finals contenders this season and are very thirsty for AD. Atlanta, I guess might, but what do you think you’d be able to pry from them of high value? Wouldn’t it likely be comparable to the deal we got with Dallas except without dumping two onerous contracts?

The Stein newsletter indicates we at least kicked the tires on some unrealistic targets like Mitchell and Fox, before thinking about ways to unload unwanted money. I’d say that realistically Perry probably found the one team willing to help him unload mistakes created before his arrival, added a talented, albeit flawed, PG prospect with 2 more years left on his rookie scale deal and two first round picks. That’s a good haul considering the circumstances surrounding the asset they were peddling.

I pretty much just lurk on these boards and read posts as I can’t really compete on knowledge with most here but I had a question that’s been bugging me.

I’m with what seems to be the consensus here that the KP trade was overall good, and becomes great if they use the cap space well. I’ve also seen the two first round picks listed as an obvious plus.

However I’ve found that many of the major news outlets view this as a salary dump only and really pan it. Reading these they seem to not really mention or at least give credit to the fact the Knicks got those picks in the deal. The narrative seems to be “Dumped a star to get rid of bad salary!” Was what folks here thought of that. Is it a legit gripe or are they really just trying to fit their preset narrative?

Thanks. Great site that I really enjoy even if I don’t contribute.

@199 Sure. It’s a system issue. Right.

But AD plus Kemba means that they still have a lot of money to spend on other guys, though, right?

Sure, they have some, but they would have more holes to fill and fewer assets to fill it with and virtually no protection should either of the two guys get injured. I don’t see a sustained contender being built out of that mix. In the KD plus Kemba scenario, you would definitely have this year’s #1, all the other picks and/or young pieces that went into the AD deal, and the same amount of cap room. It would be a significantly better scenario except for KD’s age, which is somewhat mitigated by AD’s injury concerns. I personally would rather pass on the whole win now scenario via AD blockbuster trade if the second star is Kemba.

DSJ just lauded the fact that we practically have no NBA level offensive system in place.

I don’t give a shit what generic ass thing DSJ said when pressed for comment on his brand new team, just like I didn’t give a shit when he said he liked watching Derrick Rose, which as you may recall, was your reason he was worse than Frank Ntilikina in the draft.

Is there a reason NO would’t call PHL and ask for Embiid heads up? Makes philly better…. solves NO problem and has Embiid locked for 5 years with injury protection….. assuming AD would re-sign with PHL…..

I don’t give a shit what generic ass thing DSJ said when pressed for comment on his brand new team, just like I didn’t give a shit when he said he liked watching Derrick Rose, which as you may recall, was your reason he was worse than Frank Ntilikina in the draft.

It wasn’t the only reason I liked Frank better, but that’s besides the point. Rick Carlisle was ready to give up on this kid in just one season because he couldn’t play in an NBA style offense where he wasn’t dominating the ball handling duties. So excuse me when I double take upon seeing him laud the fact that Fizdale is going to let him freewheel the starting point guard duties. Anyone who thinks this is a positive sign, or is indifferent to it like you, are just ignoring confirmation of the same concern regarding his game raised from his college days: can he play a mature PG within an actual NBA system? It’s a legitimate concern whether you want to admit it or not.

To be sure, he’s got a loooooooong way to go. His median outcome might be below rotation-level. However it’s pretty odd to see some people who are all in on Frank fucking Ntilikina write off Smith Jr. There really is no coherent explanation for that besides just kinda liking Frank better.

let me take on the decoherence police who think what you see when you measure is all there is. i think it’s highly likely that both frank and DSJ become fringe or worse players but if I had to pick who becomes useful to a good team in more universes i probably take frank.

dsj has made strides in both directions this year. he is still a terrible risk taker. his risk adj tovs started out badly and dropped toward the abyss. it’s admittedly awesome for a pg to get to the rim 40pct of the time but he pays a high price to get there and is just okay when he does. i know, copenhagen, turnovers empirically tend to decline. but often that’s for players just figuring out what they can do efficiently. i’m not sure that sort of retreat will help DSJ because i think he maybe needs to go full bore through both slits interference-be-damned to do what he’s “good” at. it’s hard for me to imagine him retreating into an efficient player, as many young players learn to do.

it’s also hard to watch him on defense, because sometimes he’s actually good at it. maybe some people see that as potential but for me it’s the other way. i’ve seen a few guys get smarter on D to make up for their physical deficiencies (kurt thomas), but i’ve hardly ever seen any grow a motor or an instinct. if you’re not a plus defender shooter or passer your good case is usually a worthless but highly regarded bench scorer.

frank has been worse by a mile but the path to useful still seems less heroic for me, if unlikely. i feel like DSJ has to either become baron davis or he won’t be worth a lick, although his chances of sticking in the league are much, much higher.

his risk adj tovs started out badly and dropped toward the abyss

What is this stat? I’ve never heard of risk adjusted turnovers.

milo digging deep into his secret statistical stash once again…

i don’t know – if we plan on going from 16 wins this season to 40 plus next season – we’re not doing it with dennis smith jr at the point…

if we strike out on the private reserve free agents and don’t decide to add 2 or 3 mid shelf free agents, it would seem like smith jr would make an excellent choice for point guard next year as we once again play with a roster full of shake level younger players…

ptmilo is Sam Hinkie confirmed

I pretty much just lurk on these boards and read posts as I can’t really compete on knowledge with most here but I had a question that’s been bugging me.

There is no shame in contributing whatever you’ve got, so long as your response to empirical arguments isn’t, “Well I seen otherwise, and my eyes have never been wrong.” We tend to be a pragmatic bunch, doing the best we can with the limited information we have, and betting based on risk aversion rather than blind optimism. Well, at least some of us.

Welcome.

What do ptmilo and a team that doesn’t score after a turnover have in common?

They both fail to capitalize

Ba dum bum..

Congrats Ntilakilla, good stuff!