Game Thread: Memphis Grizzlies at New York Knicks
Start Time: 02/03/2019 13:00:00
Knicks, Grizzlies to meet amid struggles, changes
Mike Conley and Marc Gasol might be starting their final weeks as members of the Memphis Grizzlies, and the New York Knicks could unveil their new acquisition Dennis Smith Jr. Sunday afternoon when the Grizzlies visit the Knicks in a matchup of struggling teams.
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Pre Game Links:
[cbssports.com] Knicks vs. Grizzlies odds, line: NBA picks, predictions, best bets from model on 29-14 run
[sports.yahoo.com] Knicks, Grizzlies to meet amid struggles, changes
[nypost.com] David Fizdale already has a plan for Knicks’ new point guard
[bleacherreport.com] Kyrie Irving, Celtics Beat Knicks Amid Anthony Davis Trade Rumors, Drama
[theshadowleague.com] With Porzingis Gone, Knicks All-Black Leadership Group Is Free To Make Money Moves
[thespread.com] Grizzlies vs. Knicks Prediction
[sports.yahoo.com] NBA roundup: Irving shines as Celtics top Knicks
[washingtonpost.com] Kyrie Irving scores 23, leads Celtics past Knicks 113-99
[cbssports.com] Grizzlies’ Jaren Jackson: Probable Sunday
80 replies on “Game Thread: Memphis Grizzlies at New York Knicks”
imagine it’s all happening and the knicks somehow end up with AD, Durant and Kyrie, but all on expiring or 1/1 deals with no indication either way what happens next. everyone from the current roster is gone, but they do a great job adding min salary ring chasers and using the room, so depth is surprisingly decent. question. do you enjoy that championship run as much as you would a team with more continuity?
Not sure Kyrie would be as much of a plus to a KD-led Knicks team as Ricky Rubio, who’s also a UFA.
For me, the answer is very clear “NO”.
I never had warm feelings for Melo (even when he was playing well for a year or two) because that deal blew up a team of young players I liked a lot. I get emotionally attached to players. It takes more than a Knicks uniform or MSG for me to fall in love. Early in that period, I felt more of an attachment to the Nuggets than the Knicks and actually rooted for the Nuggets head to head. I was at MSG on a night when Gallo had an amazing game and beat NY in OT. I left MSG as happy as a pig in shit.
I’m fine with trades, free agency, etc… But for me to really get on board I want deals that ADD to the core we are building and not deals that blow up what I love just to bring in someone who is better, but that I have no attachment to.
When I was a kid, the Knicks made trades and brought in players to help Reed and Frazier win titles. They even brought in a nemesis in Earl Monroe. But they didn’t trade Clyde for Monroe, draft picks, and another good player. That would have destroyed the magic for me as a kid.
I may learn to love DSJ, but he’s got a long way to go to catch Frank in my heart.
@2 This management team would never bring in Rubio. He’s not an elite athlete, can’t score in bunches, and generally does not want to create shots for himself off the dribble. His value is in his basketball IQ, defense, play making, and team first attitude. That’s pretty much everything they don’t seem to value highly here.
I would prefer we start with Zion and build slowly and steadily towards a championship.
But make no mistake: I would enjoy the fuck out of watching Kyrie, Durant, and AD slay as Knicks.
Even thought I’d rather do it the long way, I doubt my joy would be considerably greater.
@1 no.
The long answe is that I enjoy competent management, which is what you imagine here. So yes. But If we’re into idle dreams I have better ones to indulge in.
Kyrie is one of the 3-4 best point guards in the NBA. Ricky Rubio is a defense first guard who is slowing down athletically. Rubio would be a fine rotation piece for a lot of teams at a good price. Kyrie is a difference maker..
Yeah, that’s why the KD/Kyrie combo is such an important aspect of this deal working out. Here’s to hoping!
And as the first question, I rooted like crazy for the 2012-13 Knicks, who also had no future. So I’d sure as heck root like crazy for that KD/AD/KI team. So if it was a choice between that team or a worse team with more continuity, I choose that team.
For me, the answer is very clear “NO”.
pretty sure this is my answer, to0. it’s hard to articulate where 0n the continuum the tribal illusion would fully break down, but it would matter on the margin. i think i’m an outlier though. i even watched “the decision” not entirely sure which way i was rooting. sounds crazy, i know. but i also could be wrong about myself. i was never a huge melo fan but i had no problem living and dying with every possession in the pacers series.
in this case i’m having a particularly hard time with the whole screw-this-petulant-overhyped-kid angle that more than a few posters here seem to be onboarding. i mean, kp probably is petulant and does have a high maintenance to production ratio. but how do you write that morality play given who was on the side of the little table here? does everyone forget that we know a thing or two about these motherfuckers?
Picking up on the debate from the last thread…
I think it’s pretty clear this was an all-in for this summer move from the Knicks. If they hit on two premier FAs it looks like a good deal. If they miss it’s much more challenging. In that light, the failure to explore other deals with less salary dumped and a better player/pick return will look worse.
That said, I do think we shouldn’t completely ignore the alternative value of the space created. 538 reckons the ‘cost’ to acquire a 1Rp is to take on around 18-20m of bad salary. In this deal, the knicks shaved 43m off their cap for next year. If we strike out on premier FAs and actually do pivot to rentals, we’ve got the capacity to use our space to secure a couple of additional 1rps and/or road-test some ‘prove it’ deals like Randle and Boogie signed this year, and roll forward the rebuild with maybe 8-9 1Rps over the following 5 years having already added whoever we pick this year.
Basically, this deal has an obvious plan A and a very palatable plan B. The real problem is that if we do strike out on plan A, the ‘other’ plan B of still spending the money but on lesser players is the most knicksy route, and until they actually don’t do it, many of us will have our doubts. On the face of it though, missing on the big name FAs definitely doesn’t rule this deal out from being made to work in our favour. In a vacuum, if we traded KP for more like DSj and 3-4 future firsts we’d probably all be ok with it, right?
Normally I’d like to see a team draft players, then grow into an identity with those players. That’s a fun thing to watch. Thing is, I’m not really attached to any of the young players the Knicks have except MitchRob, because in my heart I know most of the young guys on this roster are not very good. And that included Porzingis when he was here. He’s certainly an intriguing player and the potential for greatness is there, but he’s a low-IQ player in a lot of ways, is injury prone and was still more about projection than production heading into his max contract year.
I’d rather have seen NYK trade Porzingis for a pure asset haul than to dump bad contracts, but if next year’s team has Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving on it I will be fine with that. If the team has Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and Zion Williamson on it, well that’s even better. Just for the love of all that is decent please don’t give me a Kemba Walker/DeMarcus Cousins turd and tell me it’s a hot fudge sundae. Just please, please, Steve Perry and the other guy, if you’re reading this, please don’t do that. That’s all I ask.
You can believe that this deal was a coup AND that they did it with the sole purpose of being players in this year’s free agent market. The two are definitely not mutually exclusive.
I doubt that the Knicks could have both unloaded TH2 and Lee AND got multiple firsts AND a reasonably good young prospect from any other team in a KP deal without giving up at least one young piece, e.g. Ntilikina (who I personally would have given up over Burke, but whatever).
I think they could have gotten better players, or possibly better picks, had they waited. But given the news of KP wanting out, waiting around to get max value was perilous when this deal was on the table. They did due diligence on Davis, but were rebuffed, so they moved on to plan B: cap space. Keep in mind that any team taking on KP would have had to have been OK with taking on two overpaid, unmovable pieces and to have had the expirings to make it work and the young piece and have been willing to part with two first, including an unprotected. That’s a very good haul, and the result is incredible flexibility going forward.
The problem is that we have very little faith that management won’t get impatient and squander the flexibility, or that we won’t get typically unlucky. Those are very reasonable concerns.
Yeah, it isn’t an insult that the deal was done with the intent of them getting two max guys this offseason.
I’d much prefer to win with home grown guys as opposed to free agents, but I’ve been a fan of this team for almost 50 years, so I will cheer for whoever they throw out there. However, trading KP was the last straw for my Dad.
I mean, I said all along I’d trade Porzingis for assets if I was GM. And the opportunity is definitely there to convert the cap space into assets in the very near future if NYK can’t get the top tier free agents to come here. That cap space might not land Durant, but it might very well be valuable to a contender who is looking to add Durant but can’t afford to do it because of a bad contract or two.
For now, at this moment in time, this is not a bad deal for NYK in terms of opportunity cost. They actually GAINED opportunities for once. Usually they squander opportunities when they get them, but let’s hope Lucy lets Charlie Brown kick the football this time.
I started as a Knick fan in the ’60s and had to suffer through mediocrity for 8 years, which made the Red Holzman era teams that much more enjoyable- a combo of homegrown ( Willis, Clyde, Bradley) and a galvanizing trade ( DeBusschere). Part of the enjoyment was observing the team climb in playoff effectiveness.
Now after 20 some odd years of profound ineptitude, I’ll take a chip run anyway I can. Clyde deserves it more than I do. Beggars can’t be choosers.
As an aside, it seems to me that Mills/Perry are putting their futures on the line with the KP trade. If this trade does not bear fruit, and KP becomes a consistent All-Star, someone is going to have to take the fall for this. Probably Perry. I often wonder if Mills has something on Dolan, having survived a rash of otherwise fireable offenses.
I don’t know if this is directed at me but I think I’ve made it pretty clear that I have no problem whatsoever with what KP did. Players should squeeze out every last bit of leverage they have.
Him not wanting to be here was a factor for me only insofar as it made it much more likely that he’d take concrete actions to worsen the state of the New York Knicks . That could be the QO, but it could also be signing a 2 + 1 offer sheet at 12:01, or even signing the max and then not working as hard as he otherwise would have. Again, if we were dealing with KAT I’d want the front office to pull out every god damn stop to keep him in a Knicks uniform. Since we’re not (and you have to give the front office some credit for recognizing that), I have no problem with trading him before things got to that point.
I saw the chatter that teams weren’t even aware that KP was on the block, which seems reasonable if the Knicks knew that he was about to go public with a trade demand specifically and only to Dallas. But still, he let his new team give up a lot of assets to have him six months ahead of time. Seems like the long contested 2PA isn’t the only thing he learned from Melo.
Bookmark this thread so that those on my side of the trade analysis can be mocked when KP starts playing like a max player. I just don’t see it happening, and I especially don’t see the Knicks coming out as losers from the trade alone. (I share the skepticism that they’ll do anything productive with the cap space, but that’s just conditioning after twenty years of suck.)
debating on whether to go ahead and subscribe to NBA league pass again…
I kind of want to see dennis smith jr and DJ play…
good chance we beat the grizz today…
I wonder how lit noah’s gonna be…
It’s going to be pretty hilarious when DSJ wins the Slam Dunk Contest as a Knick.
I think the trade was a great job by the front office. I think it is safe to say that while acknowledging the front office has a lot of work to be seen as a competent overall. That the performance of the front office as a whole means evaluating previous bad deals this good deal helped clean up or that a lot of pieces have to come together in the offseason for their tenure to be seen as a net positive doesn’t take away from this being a good deal.
We have picks, cap space and 4-5 rotation players depending on how much you think Frank and Knox improve. Perhaps 1-2 starters depending on what Mitch and DSJ develop into? There are a lot of possibilities for the offseason. I won’t say the front office is bad if they don’t get some combo of Kyrie / KD/ AD / Kawhi here, because they could still be smart and use their cap space to help other teams sign those guys and take more assets. If the summer becomes 5th overall pick + Kemba + 4 /50 for Vonleh or something, it doesn’t make this deal bad, it just means the one smart deal wasn’t evidence the front office turned a corner.
Yeah once Porzingis indicated he didn’t want to be here, he became a rapidly depreciating asset and they were wise to move him quickly.
I panned this trade when the details first came out, but warmed up to it when I heard about the two 1RPs. And now that I’ve processed it more, I actually like it.
There’s no question that Kyrie is way better than Rubio, but if there was some mystery player “x” that was just as good as Kyrie in terms of value (Jason Kidd-like), I’d be willing to bet this management team would be way less interested.
Posted this on the last thread:
I really don’t think under the table deals between players and organizations are done. It’s more of a desire communicated between players.
A lot of this stuff involves more “winging it” than we’d want to believe.
That’s why you do the trade for AD or whoever IN SEASON if you can because a “bird in the hand” really helps logistically.
If we get AD, don’t you think that other stars would literally fight over that 2nd max slot in the biggest media market? But if we don’t trade for him, you still have a shot at 2 of Kyrie, KD, Kawhi, and possibly one or two other guys.
I think we should all be pretty excited about those possibilities. And if we can’t sign or trade for literally 2 of the top 7 players in the NBA, then we still have a lot of great assets: DSJ (who I think actually has the potential to make the jump that Fox did in Sacto), Mitch, our other young guys who can still be traded for vets or picks, our own picks in 2020 and onward (which will be good if we strike out in free agency), and the Mavs picks, which let’s be honest, how good will the Mavs be? Even after the trade, do the look better than Sacto even? They are still going to be bottom dwellers in a stacked West, even with Doncic improving. Those picks will be good assets.
Really the only thing we BY ALL MEANS DON’T want to do is spent that max slot money on guys that aren’t max players. If we don’t get 2 top 7 guys this summer, we MUST save that cap space and we MUST be terrible again.
Collateral impact
Be interesting to see what if any impact the addition of DJ, DSJ and WM ( if we keep the latter 2) and the subtraction of THJ will have on the tank.
Clyde’s outfit is a remarkable pastiche….
And PTMilo, I have pondering that question a lot. Always been in the championship or bust camp. If we get Zion, slow rebuild seems the obviously best course of action. When we don’t, I can’t really fault anyone for being happy about bringing in some true superstars. Having a player like KD in the Garden, that hasn’t really ever happened. It would be fun and I would deal with passing on our version of the “process”.
One thing is for sure, we’re going to be seeing lots of highlight reel dunks! (especially if DJ plays!) Here’s some eye candy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSvGgenGLL8
I understand thinking we could’ve gotten more if we didn’t dump the salaries. It’s pretty simple logic–they were negative assets, so if you didn’t include them you’d have gotten more positive assets. The problem is there’s not a perfectly linear value in-value out relationship in NBA trades.
It’s quite possible the Mavs valued Porzingis significantly higher than other teams (and there’s some reporting suggesting this though we’ll probably never know for sure). I mean, we almost literally could not have gotten more from the Mavs. Maybe without the salary dump the 2023 1RP would be unprotected, but that amount of value can easily be recouped using the cap space if we don’t get worthy max players (more on this in a second). The Mavs couldn’t have traded more 1RPs given the Stepien Rule and we got their only non-Luka non-pick asset. I really don’t think a 2019 swap was ever in play–no team is decreasing their Zion chances.
So in order to think the Knicks could have gotten more you almost have to think it was from another team. When I look around the league, I’m just not seeing where more than 2 1RPS + a DSJ level asset was going to come from, salary dump or no salary dump.
For me, the trade will come down to a topic most of the media probably considers pretty boring; what will the Knicks do with the cap space if/when they can’t reel in the best free agents? If they pivot to a rebuild, they’ll almost definitely recoup any potential lost value from the salary dumps. They can probably find two 1RPs with that amount of space, at which point they’d likely wind up with more than they would have if they traded KP with no salary dumps. If they go the route of the New York Knicks I’ve been familiar with my whole life and sign Kemba/Boogie, we’re fucked.
I don’t know if this is directed at me
why would it be? it’s in reference to the myriad posters who have actually said exactly that, i’m not inferring here.
Auspicious debut bucket for DSJ
Am I the only one worried that this starting lineup is decent enough to mess up the tank a bit??
Here’s the trade broken down a different way.
Upside
1. I’d WAY rather have cap space than Hardaway
2. I’d rather have an expiring contract than Lee
3. I’d rather have DSJ than Burke
Downside
1. I’d rather have Porzingis than cap space and 2 mid/late 1st rounders.
Here are the potential upsides/risk going forward.
IMO, you need either 2 superstar caliber players or 1 superstar caliber player and 2 all-star caliber players to become a serious contender. The far and away toughest asset to get your hands on is a young all-star or super star caliber player. Getting those players is the #1 goal!
We had 1 all-star caliber player (with unknown upside and injury risk), a draft pick that could net us another, and were trying to open cap space for another to get there.
Now we have no all-star caliber players, but we have cap space for 2 potential all stars and the pick.
1. If we fill the 2 cap space slots with all star caliber players or better (especially if the players are superior to KP), we come out of this in a way better position.
2. If we strike out on all-star caliber players and fill the cap space good role players, we are in a way worse position because we lost KP.
3. If we strike out on all star caliber players and try to save face by overpaying players like Kemba Walker, we are in worse shape.
4. If we strike out on all star caliber players but rent the cap space out for picks etc.. we are still in good very long term shape, but the rebuild has been set back by years as we search for a young all star caliber player to replace KP.
It’s all on management to finally make a score in free agency and not do anything dumb!!!
Also, we’re going to win this one 🙁
Question: do we have any rights on DJ? Can we sign 2 FAs and go over the cap to sign him?
Hell of an observation.
good camera work on the deandre free throw routine
Yes.
We clearly have a much better team in this snapshot in time than we had before the trade unless they move these expiring contracts quickly. But it sounds like they are going to keep Jordan for the duration of the season at a minimum to work with Robinson.
To sign 2 max FAs we’d have to renounce DAJ’s cap hold, so not really.
Wow Bruno Caboclo is an actual person
Steve Mills out there like Baghdad Bob
We gotta max kornet
Mills describes DSJr. as a scoring guard. Looking to play Kyrie and DSJr. in the backcourt together?
I like Kadeem
Maybe its cognitive bias, but the Knicks look excited for once.
I could see the Knicks hanging onto DeAndre and Wes if they can’t sign any max players (AKA the new Joakim Noah and Courtney Lee). I don’t advocate for it, but I could definitely see it.
Where is Mitch lob?
Mitch is out sick.
I love the boos for Noah.
Haha, Noah is garbage
Jordan is much more engaged than I thought he would be.
I think Mitch is injured…
I really hope starting DJ is a nod to proving we won’t cut him and invite trade offers. He’s way too competent a player – as is Wes – for the tank. For the trade plan to work out we really don’t now want the cap filler in the deal to cost us draft position!!
Ps kanter must be PISSED!
This quarter and half is enough of an example on why purely on a basketball standpoint Jordan is a much better player than Kanter.
That getting up like he was going to check in tactic by Kanter is such BS on his part. I can’t wait to cut or dump the guy.
I’ve never seen a more boring game
Dsjr is quick
I don’t know if DSJ is good but I know he’s better than Frank Ntilikina
Smith’s J needs work.
That drive and kick out for the Knox 3 by DSJ was pretty sweet.
At the very least, easier on the eyes.
Holy crap, an actual nice play out of a timeout by the Knicks.
Luke is awesome, nails a three off the curl then congratulates all the new guys before exciting for the court for halftime.
Kornet’s cap hold is small so we can max him after we sign two fellow max players
Yeah, I was schizophrenic in the immediate aftermath but have settled on feeling largely ok. My only remaining gripe is that I think they overvalued Dennis Smith.
kevin knox is still gonna have rookie of the month on his linkedin in 2027
The tank continues. 29 games to go.
why exactly do these people want Kanter?
You guys realize the expiring filler, aka the 30 year old center with the really really good TS% and WS and whatnot, and the 32 year old SG who shoots 38% from 3…. uhh those guys are playing minutes here and are kinda not tanktabulous.
Someone should tell Knox while he’s still young to shoot threes, dunk, and get out in transition. That’s it. Do those things well and you’ll have a long, lucrative NBA career. If he keeps up all the other stuff he might be CBA bound.
@69 I’m really hoping all the talk of keeping them is just posturing to make teams think we won’t buy them out. I doubt it’ll work but hey you have to try.
DeAndre showing Kanter what a real man’s double double looks like.
If we’re losing comfortably to Memphis at the garden then the tank is in good shape
I decided to take a nap. Seems it was a good decision.
Dennis Smith looks good so long as he’s not shooting jumpers — ever.
Why do the Blazers think sending assets for Hood is a good thing?
The same deal with Wes would have been great for us both, but I guess Matthews is too much.
12 points on 4 FGA lmao. DeAndre Jordan is still ridiculous.
Jordan is going to make some team very happy if the Knicks waive him. I just don’t see a contender with enough expiring deals for a possible trade. I think Matthews gets bought out but I won’t be surprised if Jordan sticks around and plays 20 minutes a night for the rest of the year.
Just got in. Looks like Matthews slid in nicely to the THJ chucker role, at least for one game. Looks like Garbage Time Hezonja was in fine form?
Thoughts on this trade after a few days. Hitting the trifecta and getting Zion / KD /Kyrie or Kawhi is highly unlikely. I would say any single one of those things happening is unlikely.
If those things happening are the only things that make this trade a success then this trade is unlikely to be one. All three of those NBA players are in really good situations presently and can choose Lebron or stay put.
So it’ll be interesting to see if they can navigate this with patience and intelligence.
I don’t know what that path is and I join others in hoping they don’t treat non max players as max players.
I do think signing KP to a max would have been that level of mistake. I am also thrilled to be rid to Tim Hardaway. Another miscast player.