(Thursday, January 31, 2019 6:04:34 PM)
The Knicks have traded Kristaps Porzingis, Courtney Lee, Trey Burke and Tim Hardaway Jr. to the Mavericks forÂ Dennis Smith Jr.,Â DeAndre Jordan, Wesley Matthews and two first-round picks, both teams announced in press releases Thursday. Dallas also acquired a $12.9MM trade exception in the agreement, according to ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski (Twitter link). News of this deal […]
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:00:19 PM)
After meeting with Knicks management to express his concern about the team’s direction, Kristaps Porzingis left the franchise with the impression that he prefers to be traded, according to Adrian Wojnarowski and Ramona Shelburne of ESPN.com (Twitter link). The Knicks are expected to begin discussions about possible Porzingis trades ahead of next week’s deadline, the […]
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:29:45 PM)
1:29pm: Within their full story on the Porzingis situation, Wojnarowski, Shelburne, Lowe, and Ian Begley suggest that it’s not out of the realm of possibility that the Knicks could explore a trade involving Porzingis if tensions between the two sides continue to increase. Teams around the league have been keeping an eye on the situation […]
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 9:38:39 PM)
This image from Kristaps Porzingis’s last game with the Knicks might bring a tear to some eyes.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 7:35:19 PM)
The Knicks’ choice to ship Kristaps Porzingis to Dallas shocked the NBA world, but everyone should withhold judgment until we see what happens in free agency this summer.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 5:15:24 PM)
The Knicks decided to trade Kristaps Porzingis to the Mavericks, cashing in on cap space but losing out on a potential star. On the flip side, Dallas might have a player to pair with Luka Doncic for the next decade.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 4:56:33 PM)
The Knicks traded Kristaps Porzingis to the Mavericks on Thursday in a deal that could possibly clear space for Kevin Durant and another superstar during the 2019 NBA free agency period. But will their big gamble pay off? There are no guarantees.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 4:36:51 PM)
New York could reportedly have $74.6 million in cap space entering July’s free agency.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 4:12:01 PM)
Luka Doncic and Kristaps Porzingis are going to play together and NBA Twitter is excited.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:49:49 PM)
The Mavericks acquired Kristaps Porzingis after he expressed frustration with the Knicks
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:49:15 PM)
Here’s a look at who the Knicks have left on their roster after a blockbuster trade.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:06:36 PM)
Porzingis met with Knicks management on Thursday to discuss his role and the team’s direction.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 9:50:00 PM)
The greatest byproduct of trading Kristaps Porzingis is cap space. Lots of cap space. What they do with it will determine whether the deal was worthwhile or a total disaster.
Barring some other moves, they’ll have roughly $71 million to work with in the summer. That’s good enough for two max free…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 8:55:00 PM)
The infamous crying Knicks fan isn’t shedding any tears over Kristaps Porzingis moving on.
Jordan gained internet fame when he was caught on camera letting the waterworks flow after the Latvian’s name was called at the Barclays Center in 2015. He had eventually come around on Porzingis after meeting…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 7:55:00 PM)
The Knicks eventually ruin the experience and smear them all once they’re out the door. It happened to Patrick Ewing. Charles Oakley. Carmelo Anthony. Now, it’s the Unicorn.
From the time they drafted Porzingis fourth overall in 2015 until they traded him Thursday, the Knicks propped him up as…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 6:50:00 PM)
Kristaps Porzingis is already over his breakup with the Knicks.
Only a few hours after being suddenly traded to the Mavericks Thursday afternoon, the Latvian star tweeted a GIF of him greeting Dallas rookie Luka Doncic. Just another heart-breaker for Knicks fans.
The pair of European studs will…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:30:00 PM)
The Knicks have traded away their Unicorn and hope it will turn into Kevin Durant AND Kyrie Irving.
And ‘Hope’ is the key word. Because failure would be nothing short of an epic Knicks disaster.
Kristaps Porzingis is on his way to the Mavericks to form a potential super European tandem with Luka…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 12:15:00 PM)
It was only a matter of time before the disgruntled star and the dysfunctional organization came to an impasse.
Kristaps Porzingis and his agent met with the Knicks on Thursday to discuss the perpetually wayward direction of the franchise and left the impression he wants to be traded, a source…
(Friday, February 01, 2019 12:58:41 AM)
Knicks president Steve Mills thinks it was the right thing to do, letting Kristaps Porzingis go in a blockbuster trade with the Mavs.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 9:22:13 PM)
After a rollercoaster day for Knicks fans, media and seemingly staff, the organization’s best prospect since Patrick Ewing is now a Dallas Maverick, they have roughly $74 million in cap space to throw around this summer, and this city has gone *erases, scribbles* 0 days since the last melodrama.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 7:00:58 PM)
Most NBA rookies, even the great ones, hit a wall at some point. Kevin Knox got that out of the way early.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 11:11:03 PM)
After the Knicks made the trade of Kristaps Porzingis to the Mavericks official, the 7-foot-3 Latvian first reacted by posting a GIF with his new teammate. Hours later, he thanked his Knicks fans.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 6:15:58 PM)
Porzingis and his brother, Janis, met with team management on Thursday and “expressed concern” with the losing, the overall direction of the franchise, and more.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 4:56:41 PM)
The NBA world has been turned on its head with the Knicks and Mavs striking a blockbuster deal to send Kristaps Porzingis to Dallas. And, as one would expect, the Twitterverse exploded in shock to the surprising news.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:42:27 PM)
Pelicans star Anthony Davis has requested a trade, informing the team he has no interest in re-signing. With news of Davis wanting out came reports that the Knicks have strong interest in trading for him. Here are the latest rumors…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:11:09 PM)
NEW YORK, NY (January 31, 2019) – The New York Knicks announced today that the team has acquired center DeAndre
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 11:03:31 PM)
It appears Kristaps Porzingis can’t get to Dallas fast enough for Mark Cuban. Cuban apparently can’t wait to see Porzingis play with his fellow European star Luka Doncic as the Mavericks owner retweeted a gif Porzingis posted of the two players sharing a laugh at halftime when the Knicks lost to the Mavericks at the…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 6:52:49 PM)
It seemed all day Thursday there was more to the Knicks’ trade of Kristaps Porzingis to the Mavericks than meets the eye. Now, the ex-Knicks lottery pick has all but confirmed it. Porzingis posted a goodbye message to New York and the Knicks fans on Twitter and Instagram – hours after the trade had gone…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 6:16:36 PM)
It took long enough. Kristaps Porzingis, who was traded to the Mavericks on Thursday afternoon, finally tweeted out a message to New York and Knicks fans, but he first found time to send a celebratory tweet about playing with his new Mavericks teammate and friend Luka Doncic. “New York will always have a special place…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 4:50:37 PM)
The Knicks traded away nearly a third of their roster, and Enes Kanter seems to be wondering where he and the organization now stand. The team shipped Kristaps Porzingis, Tim Hardaway Jr., Courtney Lee and Trey Burke to the Mavericks in a stunning blockbuster trade Thursday for Dennis Smith Jr., two future first-round picks and…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 4:37:29 PM)
Kristaps Porzingis was traded to the Mavericks on Thursday. Here’s a look back at the key moments of his Knicks career: June 25, 2015: Porzingis is selected by the Knicks with the fourth overall pick in the NBA draft, leading fans inside Barclays Center to boo the largely unknown 19-year-old from Latvia. Nov. 21, 2015:…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 4:02:47 PM)
It seems Kristaps Porzingis did not like what he was seeing. According to Knicks president Steve Mills, the Latvian star wasn’t seeing eye to eye with management. That led to a blockbuster deal that quickly took shape, sending Porzingis to the Dallas Mavericks along with Tim Hardaway Jr., Courtney Lee and Trey Burke on Thursday…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 1:57:03 PM)
The Mavericks’ European star combo just got new life. While Dallas may lose Dirk Nowitzki to retirement at the end of this season, his replacement may have just landed in the form of Kristaps Porzingis, who could pair with Luka Doncic as a tantalizing duo for years to come. Porzingis, 23, is already planning to…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 1:42:22 PM)
While the Knicks’ blockbuster Kristaps Porzingis trade Thursday technically landed them Dennis Smith Jr., DeAndre Jordan, Wesley Matthews and two first-round draft picks, they are banking on the real prize coming a few months down the road. By unloading the contracts of Tim Hardaway Jr. and Courtney Lee in the trade, the Knicks will have…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 1:23:32 PM)
There is one way, and only one, where the surreal events of Thursday afternoon make even a little bit of sense at Penn Plaza. Monday, July 7 figures to be one of the lightest news days of the summer. It’s the first day of baseball’s All-Star break, so the Mets and the Yankees will be…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 12:11:14 PM)
The Knicks made plenty of news Thursday afternoon, with a meeting with star Kristaps Porzingis evolving into a multiplayer trade with the Mavericks in the span of a few hours. The reported trade involves Porzingis, Tim Hardaway Jr., Courtney Lee and Trey Burke going to Dallas for Dennis Smith Jr., DeAndre Jordan and Wes Matthews,…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 11:39:53 AM)
Dennis Smith Jr.’s timing was impeccable Wednesday, dropping a triple-double in the Garden — 14 points, 15 assists and 10 rebounds — in the Mavericks’ 114-90 win. It turned out his showing came on the eve of the Knicks finally acquiring Smith, 19 months after they passed over him in the draft for another point…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 10:50:43 AM)
In an eyeblink, New York’s 7-foot-3 Latvian Unicorn is moving to Texas. The Kristaps Porzingis era is over in a stunner. The Knicks moved Porzingis, their disgruntled bedrock piece, Tim Hardaway Jr., Courtney Lee and Trey Burke to Dallas on Thursday for Dennis Smith Jr., two distant first-round picks and the expiring contracts of DeAndre…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 10:07:58 AM)
Kristaps Porzingis may have played his last game with the Knicks. ESPN.com reports he met with Knicks management on Thursday and left them with the impression that he would like to be traded. And that’s the course of action GM Scott Perry and team president Steve Mills plan to take before next Thursday’s trade deadline….
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 9:47:15 AM)
When Thursday started, ESPN reported the Celtics were worried the Knicks could swoop in on the Anthony Davis talks and, if successful, use the star big man to lure Kyrie Irving out of Boston. Things have changed a lot since then. The Knicks traded Kristaps Porzingis, Trey Burke, Tim Hardaway Jr. and Courtney Lee to…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 8:54:07 AM)
The Knicks’ problems just got a whole lot worse. In the midst of a 10-40 season, the Knicks held hope for better days when Kristaps Porzingis returned from his ACL tear, but now the Latvian star has worries about the franchise before he even gets back on the court. Porzingis met with Knicks management Thursday…
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 6:42:56 AM)
Enes Kanter doesn’t know how many days he has left in a Knicks jersey, but he claims to know which big free agent they will land this summer. He just can’t tell you whom. “I actually do have an idea [of who will sign], but I cannot really tell,” Kanter told Sports Illustrated. “It’s a…
(Friday, February 01, 2019 4:39:57 AM)
In a stunning deal with Dallas, the Knicks opened up a ton of salary cap room to pursue free agents in July. They could sign Kevin Durant. And perhaps a second star, too.
(Friday, February 01, 2019 12:12:35 AM)
Team president Steve Mills said the Knicks feel like they did the right thing by trading former first-rounder Kristaps Porzingis. “You don’t want to commit a max [contract] to a player who clearly says to you he doesn’t want to be here,” Mills said.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 4:05:50 PM)
There weren’t enough emojis for NBA players to express their shock when they found out New York was sending The Unicorn to Dallas.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:52:27 PM)
The Knicks have traded Kristaps Porzingis, Trey Burke, Courtney Lee and Tim Hardaway Jr. to the Mavs in return for Wesley Matthews, Dennis Smith Jr., DeAndre Jordan and two future first-round picks.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:52:14 PM)
What’s next for the Knicks’ star chase? Will Kristaps Porzingis be a surefire superstar in Dallas? We grade the trade.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 10:49:02 AM)
Pelicans GM Dell Demps might be sending a message to the Lakers by taking his time to return messages concerning superstar Anthony Davis, sources told ESPN.
(Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:15:53 PM)
Kristaps Porzingis, concerned about the future of the New York Knicks, has left team officials with the impression that he wants to be traded, sources told ESPN.
215 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2019.02.01)”
I’ll repeat from last thread 😀
@312 In the East that’s easily a playoff team, my over/under will be 47,5.
Once the details are finally defined,
Pelton gave us a B and Dallas a C-, Duncan and Laroux think the FO did a nice job even if Laroux call us “right now from a basketball prospective an empty canvass”, while the guys at 538 had only partial info at the time of their roundtable (and some of them suffer from PTSD being former Knick’s beat or fans, just like us).
Duncan & Laroux released (Patreon subscribers only) the updated cap situation,
using 1st pick value for projected draft expenses (Zion will get 9.65 Mil in the first year), including roster charges for empty roster spots and the dead money for Noah and LT (1 Mil guaranteed).
I’m a bit surprised, it’s less then I thought:
69,5 Mil even declining Trier option and with only 6 players signed (Knox, MitchRob, Frank, Dot, DSJ, 1st, we could resign Kornet and Vonleh later in different ways).
Max contracts for KD and Kyrie sums up around 71 Mil so there’s still work to do but I’m sure they’re counting pennies and dimes to try it…
Or they could take slightly less then the max to join forces… they just need to renounce 1 Mil each 🙂
I think english_knick’s numbers are pretty much spot on:
So all they would need to do is either get KD and Irving to take a slight hair cut or not pick #1. And if they do pick one, you’d have to like the chances of them taking that slight shave, right? $36.3 million vs. $37 million? I mean, really? Is that seriously a problem if you’re joining forces in New York with freakin Zion?! And the more likely scenario is that they don’t pick #1, in which case they get the cap room there.
But yeah, I’m now really irked at the whole “The Knicks have over $70 million in cap room” reports from reporters. How can they be that off?
english_knick’s numbers are very right, Duncan & Laroux’s 69,5 M extimates include renouncing Trier (3,55 M) , so he’s spot on.
I’m surprised by Marks missing by 5M, good work from ESPN’s cap expert… 😀
BTW if they try Kyrie + Kawhi they need “just” around 65,5M…
If we start the offseason under the cap, then use all our cap space on free agents, what exceptions will we have access to? We have six guys who’ll be under contract next year, plus the two FAs, plus two draft picks. Would the rest of the team have to be minimum salary guys?
Just the room, since they used the bi-annual on Trier. The room is $4,449,000 (plus a standard increase for year two. It can only be a two-year contract).
The rest would have to be minimum guys (including vet minimum guys).
A horrible, horrible trade. They shipped out potential *amazing* for a player nobody here likes, cap space and two mid lottery (at best) picks in 2710 and 2874.
Even in the best case scenario with KD and Kawhi this is not a championship team, and KD would be in decline soon so the window is one or two years tops. Add Zion and you get some excitement back, but still no rings. And this is the best case scenario, with multiple ifs attached.
I wish KP the best, it was fun to watch him play during his time here. No, he wasn’t top 10, and maybe he’ll never get there, but he did things on the court that I’ve never seen before and that left me excited and happy like a 10 year old.
Oh, and please, don’t give me that “he didn’t want to be with us” tears the New York Dolan’s management is crying now. You guys are incompetent fools, of course he didn’t.
I do agree that “he didn’t want to be here” is nonsense and just general PR spin from a guy who is one of the best in the league at spin. Beyond that, though, I dunno. I don’t like the trade, but I don’t hate it, either. I guess I’m at a C for it, if we assume that C is “average.” Some people think a C is a bad grade, so in that case, I guess B- then? Whatever the grade you give for a “shrugs” sort of trade. I wouldn’t have done it, but I get the logic enough to not hate it. Unless they have an under the table agreement with KD in which he said he would only sign here if the Knicks signed another max guy, in which case I’d bump it up to an A.
The main thing I’d give it, though, is what I said in my post yesterday – it’s very much a familiar approach, as opposed to what Mills and Perry said that they would do. The difference here is that they might actually land their White Whales while Phil Jackson and Donnie Walsh failed miserably in their shots at it (this trade really reminded me a lot of Phil’s early trades, where so much was based on what he would do with the money he was squirreling away. The answer was “awful things,” but we couldn’t know that at the time).
The number I get when everyone is renounced, Thomas is waived, and I factor the #1 overall pick’s cap hold is $68.7M. If we truly require two “not a penny less” slots, two of DSJ/Frank/Knox could probably be moved fairly easily. That would get us there.
Needless to say that would be a drag, but in this scenario we have the #1 overall pick and two agreements from max players so we’d survive.
So do they try to unload Frank and/or Smith to create more room?
It’s a real possibility, yes.
We literally got their first available first round pick.
Really? For one or two years of top Durant and either Kawhi or Kyrie? All of them missed years to injuries before so the risk is there. How is that better than 23 year old KP and one other max player?
Who’s the other max player? It wasn’t going to be Kawhi or Kyrie. Durant will be 31 next year. Jordan was playing baseball when he was 31, so there most likely is a lot of life left in KD’s body.
We’re speculating, right? We don’t know that KD and Kyrie are coming. We’re just hoping that maybe. So I think we could speculate that it would have been KP and Kyrie.
Right, and potentially it’s only available in 3874.
You were responding to my “If they have a deal with KD where he would only sign here if they got another max spot, then I would give it an A” comment. So “KD and Kyrie coming” is built into that comment.
OK, yeah, I understand. It would still be a C- in my book, but I understand your logic.
Logically, I understand the trade. Emotionally, I am pissed. That’s alright, isn’t it? I just unfollowed KP on Twitter.
When Porzingis is injured half the season and showing no signs of being even the player he was, much less a legendary, mythical basketball creature, I hope we can all use our deep emotional capacity to remember, as noted several times by smarter people than me, that Dallas just took on $156M of risk.
And they actually have a future MVP candidate. If ever there is a time to not fuck up, it’s now.
I thought this was a parody post.
It is going to be funny when Lebron opts out in 2 more years and signs with the Mavs to have KP and Luka drag him across the finish line 🙂
Look who’s talking.
Lots to unpack on this deal. I was really angry at first, and a lot less angry as the night went on (irrationally I got less angry about the deal with KP’s classless GIF of him and Luka). So here goes:
1) I fully buy that KP did not want to be on this team. What do I know, but my guess is the Woj/Shelbourne/Lowe leak was from KP’s side. As to why he didn’t want to be on the team – that’s another story. Did he not like what he was seeing from the team in terms of results? Well, that’s just dumb because of course they were going to be terrible this year. My honest guess is that they’d already had contract discussions and the Knicks were either not going to offer him a max or would only give him a max with a lot of injury guarantees. There is no question KP is at least a little bit diva-ish, has a very high opinion of himself, and probably thinks that he is due a full max in return for not (publicly) making a big deal out of not getting an extension last summer.
2) Maybe this is backwards thinking, but I am at least a little bit impressed that Perry (? Mills too?) is not allowing himself to be tied to previous mistakes. So while the process in whole is not good (give players bad contracts, then use assets to get rid of said contracts), those mistakes happened prior to Perry’s arrival. He held his nose and did what needed to be done.
3) While I am/was a huge KP fan, I have in general agreed that giving him a max contract was a necessary evil, not an obvious move. He’s injury prone for sure, is a good (potentially great) but imperfect player on both ends of the court, and I am also not at all a fan of his diva attitude. Many on this board have said that giving a non-max player a long-term max deal is basically the worst thing you can do, and it is possible AND reasonable that Perry just doesn’t think he’s a max player.
4) Now in terms of the trade itself:
– Timing – I don’t believe at all that this was a panic move by the Knicks. Nothing Perry has done since coming here suggests that he makes sudden impulse moves. I DO believe that they had several offers on the table as they quietly assessed the market. I also don’t have a problem with it being done a week before the trade deadline, and in fact my guess is that it happened a little earlier than they wanted as a result of the KP leak — it was already done by the time KP’s side started to intimate that they might not extend. You could easily have forecasted that KP’s side would kill the Knicks leverage by saying he would sign the QO unless he went to the Lakers or whatever, and in fact they did that right away, but the die was already cast. Doing it a week ahead of time also lets them be at least active in the trade deadline market with some clarity in what they have to offer. It gives them time to see who might want DAJ or Wes (DAJ to the Clips for Gortat + Teodosic? Wes Matthews for Muscala and Wilson Chandler? Waiving Enes to make the roster spot?). Because you KNOW that DAJ will go to the Lakers or Houston, and so anyone who wants him might just pony up a 2nd round pick, or even a late first potentially.
– Value – this one is tricky and has just a huge range of outcomes. That unprotected 2021 pick is just so huge – not because KP is necessarily an injury risk (he is), but what happens if (God forbid) Luka gets hurt? That Dallas roster stinks outside of Luka and KP, and they will have no cap space until 2020. We’ve already seen what a roster that stinks outside of KP can do. And with the flattened lottery odds, that really could be a useful pick, if we use it to pick a player.
Unprotected picks, like JK47 said yesterday, are super-rare and valuable nowadays. We now have a war chest of pretty nice assets between the young guys, and extra 1sts (and 2nds from Willy’s deal).
They really should sign Anthony Bennett to a deal now, right? At least for 10-day contract. See if his G-League improvement is for real.
The Dolan’s are about to take a similar risk on a 31 year old who wants to be the man on yet another win now foray into oblivion. I don’t see how is this better.
I think an AD trade is coming, I really do. I’ll be sad if Mitch goes, but he might have to. Frank, Knox, Kanter, our 2019 pick and the Dallas 2021 pick would be the trade, maybe with Mitch too.
Then you get Kyrie in the summer. You still have DSJ to trade for a good vet, and you can sign a few more minimum deals, and maybe DeAndre nets you at least a late first/early 2nd.
Perry has the ability to do this, and he might.
Can we trade Jordan/Matthews right away? Is Jordan for the rest of the season worth a future 1st round pick to a contender who needs a big man – Celtics maybe? Then we’d have three “extra” future first rounders we could package for a third stud to go with KD and Kyrie.
If AD is coming than sure, this was a brilliant move. We have a week to see if that’s happening.
Moving THJ,Lee, and Burke means your guards are Frank, DSJ, Trier, Dotson, Allen. I’m okay with the developing kids major minutes now.
Another unexpected bonus is that the Knicks again have an open roster spot. Don’t be surprised if that turns into a buy-low young player another team releases after the trade deadline.
I’m having a really hard time with this trade. Not because it’s a bad trade (it could wind up being anything from a colossal franchise-crippling blunder to a key to a championship run) but because it once again deprives us of any short-term hope of building a contender around a beloved homegrown player for the first time since Ewing. The next best hope for that is the 14% chance of landing Zion, and in my book it there is a substantially greater than 14% chance that KP develops into a top-20 player. The other thing is that my 19yo son, who is going through a hard time right now, has a signed KP jersey hanging in his room and once again has had his heart ripped out by the starstruck fandom he inherited from me: Knicks, Mets, Jets. I drove him to work this morning and tried to explain the nuances of the cap to him and why it may be for the best that he was traded. But it still really hurts.
There are several scenarios that could ease the pain over time:
-KP never develops into a max-level player or struggles mightily with injury over the next few years
-Dennis Smith Jr figures it out and becomes a star
-We hit the lottery and draft Zion
-Somehow we wind up with 2 of Durant, Irving, Leonard or Davis and start a string of 50+ win seasons
-Mitch, Trier and Knox all develop into very good players
-we use the Dallas picks to land a 3rd star
But somehow it feels that none of these things will happen and we will continue to churn in the 20-40 win range for the foreseeable future, while Dallas is the next team to build a contender on our mistakes.
Yeah, Durant’s decline phase doesn’t really make me optimistic either, especially with a cast of lottery-bust scrubs and Mitch behind him. But again, dodging the $156M risk bullet is such a relief.
Unless, of course, you think Porzingis is going to come back from the injury and immediately be the guy we all saw when we squinted to ignore entire months of his play.
No offense, man. I just thought you were kidding. I can’t believe your entire revulsion to this trade is that they got rid of player who “did things on the court that I’ve never seen before and that left me excited and happy like a 10 year old.” Its like a kid who is mad for eating his broccoli because he doesn’t like the taste.
Yes, they can trade them right away. No, Jordan isn’t worth a first round pick to a contender. 😉
Hmmmmm….. let me see…. Durant’s 36 year old season will likely better than KP’s best….. which player would I rather bank on for the next 5 years…. the one who has never played more than 30 good games in a season or the MVP type now 30?
Now what could we do with all those picks and assets?
Like others have written, they could theoretically be used in an Anthony Davis trade although I think that’s unlikely.
But we’ve seen now that seemingly almost every year, stars get disgruntled and want out. Kyrie. Cousins if you consider him a star. Anthony Davis. Jimmy Butler. Kawhi Leonard. Who are the potentials that might want out going forward? Giannis for sure — what if they flame out this offseason, Middleton decides to go elsewhere, and Giannis decides he’d like a bigger market? Karl Anthony Towns if Minny continues to stink?
Truth is, we ARE a blank canvas now, but not in the blank canvas way that we were when we were chasing Lebron, mostly because while we had some young promising players in 2010, we had given away all our picks to clear that space. Right now we have massive financial flexibility, some pretty good young players (not great certainly, but pretty good), and over the next 5 years we have 7 first round picks and 5 second round picks that can be used in trade.
I would actually wager that after this offseason when Boston’s chest of picks starts to run dry, we might have one of the biggest asset pools out there on the trade market (I’m not counting teams that are obviously not trading their great players as assets).
What we absolutely CANNOT do is blow the cap space on dudes that aren’t deserving. Too early to know whether Perry would do such a thing if he feels the pressure to do something.
From Dallas’s perspective I think it’s a big risk, but assuming KP comes back even close to his former self, they’ll be really good. Tim Hardaway as a 3rd option is probably going to be really good. Courtney Lee is a solid 3/D 3rd or 4th guard.
Z-Man, I feel your son’s pain. Mine is only 8, and mostly has shown no interest in sports. At first, I felt like I had to push him so we’d have something to bond over, but we have other things, and why would I want to condemn him to root for this team, or to deal with the various moral quandaries that come from being a fan of almost any team in 2019?
I’ve quickly zipped through the Five Stages of Grief with this trade. I’m still prepared for a catastrophic free agent summer, but until then we can have fun speculating, I guess. Sigh…
So – final analysis-
I’m super sad that KP is gone because like others have said, he was a homegrown star that now was shipped away.
But honestly -if he doesn’t want to be here, fuck him. Yes, we could’ve called his bluff on the QO, but you have to know that Brooklyn would’ve signed him to a poison pill offer sheet, like a 1+1 with trade kicker and other garbage, and then 3 months later KP would be agitating to get traded, at which point we would’ve probably gotten less. This obviates all the drama that would’ve come with that.
So now if you decide to trade him, then you want some combination of young cost-controlled players, picks, and salary relief. We got all 3 in this deal, even if DSJ is not my favorite. And we got 2 1st round picks and a MASSIVE amount of salary relief. I’m not sure we could’ve done much better, and I’m sort of surprised that Zach Lowe thinks we sold really low on KP, a guy who really has been more potential than production, is due for a huge payday, and is coming off an ACL tear.
It literally cannot be the former, though it certainly can be for the Mavericks. We didn’t take back a single risk-prone asset. Even if KP turns into a generational talent, that’ll sting like hell but it won’t have any direct negative implications on the Knicks.
If we spend the cap space poorly that’s an entirely separate issue.
Who gives a crap about homegrown? Did you care that Dave D and pearl weren’t home grown? The idea is to amass assets capable of winning bigly. If NO would have taken KP for AD would you be waxing rhapsodical for this guy who hasn’t been able to string together 10 weeks of good play?
There is an old Chinese proverb that says, “Love is like an hourglass…. when the heart fills….. the brain empties!”
Keep your eyes on the prize……
Atlanta Timmy was about average in usage and posted his best TS, WS/48, etc.
It’s only when he takes all those dumb shots that he really sucks on offense.
I am just so glad the FO cleared itself of the last remnants of the Melo era. Methinks KP picked up some bad habits from his buddy that weren’t just confined to shooting long-range two point jumpers on the court. I love the kid’s potential and always have. But I have a hard time with him sending ultimatums and overplaying his hand despite never having finished a season as the #1 option on our team. Wreaks of entitlement from someone who hasn’t earned it yet. Imagine what a monster he’ll become to deal with down the road if he’s even perennial middling All-Star type. We spent around 7 years dealing with one who didn’t have the same shaky injury history. I can’t blame the FO for not wanting any part of this even if the haul is less than I may have liked.
by the way super hilarious that the Super Bowl is literally in 2 days and the top trending topics on Twitter yesterday were basically all NBA.
Good point by Bryan Gibberman (has been posted by multiple people here prior to the trade):
Career TS by month for Porzingis:
Oct – 56.5
Nov – 57
Dec – 50.6
Feb – 52.0
April – 1 game played in 2 seasons
This trade has made me schizophrenic. There are things I like and things I hate. But one thing I’m sure of, no matter how this works out, is we do not have good mgmt.
1. Joakim Noah. This goes all the way back to the decision to stretch him instead of wait. That is now officially a massive blunder bc he probably could have been part of this deal.
2. I really believe this happened in 48 hours. The league is in shock. Most executives didn’t know he was on the block and are miffed that they couldn’t make an offer. Cuban came to NY and did a smash and grab on these guys. Carlisle showcased Dennis Smith and the knicks fell for it.
3. We could have had a core of Frank-Mikal-Porzingis-Robinson that at least would have been an incredible defensive foundation. They opted for Knox, Smith Jr, and dreams. That says a lot about them.
4. I would have been them protection on their 2021 pick for their extra percentage points in the lottery this year (I.e. swap rights). Not doing that was a missed opportunity.
There’s nothing wrong with the trade. The problem is that no one trusts management to capitalize on the opportunity they bought.
bob, that team had Willis, Clyde and Bradley. Not one, not two but 3 homegrown stars.
The ’86 Mets had Darryl, Doc and others.
Also, remember that as good as AD is, he’s still going to command a $46M AAV contract. Unlikely that he’s a huge overpay, but $46M demands a ton of production out of one player. Every missed game due to injury (to him or his star teammates) makes it that much more important that he keep the 9.0 BPM where it is.
And as NO showed, he can’t carry a bad team to the playoffs on his own. He’s the guy you get when you already have LeBron or Kawhi or Kyrie, not the guy you get to start your team around. He is far past that point, salary-wise.
Davis is clearly a high All-NBA player and an MVP candidate. But this trade should not be defined by whether it yields any individual player. They reduced the chance to whiff on an onerous KP Max contract to zero. That is a very good thing.
I like the risk they took here, i think they established something in the way of committing to going to the next level. Without this move we are stuck in between, striking out in fa was a real possibility. Now not so muchbevaise they opened up two clear spots, and I get the feeling they have some commitment or interest from the big k’s. Besides who the hell wants to join a team committed to timmy for another two years, I think Cuban really overlooked that one and got fleeced.
Perry/mills are playing the game, love it or hate it they didn’t let a middling overrated 23 yr old being advised by his older brother detour their goal to achieve a winner. Hats off to them!
Exactly. If a front office with a history of making competent moves did this, we would all be a lot happier.
It’s just so uncertain, it might yield good picks, it might bring top free agents, it might signify a change in approach to a more patient rebuild where they go methodically building assets and working with them, it might mean Zion…
It might also mean we’ll get non-Lottery’s Mavs picks, pick 5th on a 3 man draft, waste the cap on Tobias Harris and Khris Middleton and we’re set for 5 more years of pain…
The ball is on Mills and Perry’s hands now, and for the first time in so many years there’s actually a real blank slate for them to work with, all the previous mistakes have been mostly erased.
It’s just a strange feeling for Knicks fans as were immediately used to not trust the management of this team, with very good reasons. I have hope, but also a sinking feeling that they’ll blow up this chance as usual. They’ve banked it all on the next offseason and the draft.
I think Z-Man @29 nailed it. It’s not exactly what he said, but there’s a higher than %14 chance KP becomes top 20, and %14 is where the delight of a home grown championship level star is at right now. And even that has multiple ifs attached.
Z-Man good luck to your son.
If we traded two first rounders and one of our better young players for a player named Pristaps Korzingis who had the track record, contract status, and injury history of Kristaps Porzingis this board would be rightfully apoplectic.
Best wishes to your son, Z-man. Always important to remember, especially in the face of actual real-life struggles, that basketball is a game. A beautiful game, but still a diversion, a stage production like any other.
I think the thread could end here (but let’s get another three hundred comments anyway)
This could also lead to the Cussins and Kemba and Raddish show. Quite likely actually.
With a max contract. That’s the problem. And not every top 2o player is worth a max contract.
We can land non-Zion franchise players too.
KP currently needs to 1) stay healthy, 2) significantly improve his offensive efficiency, and 3) rebound the ball.
Right now KP’s entire worth is on defense. I could see his efficiency improve, not his rebounding. Rebounding alone keeps him out the top players category.
I don’t agree at all.
KP wanted to be in “NY”, but he wanted to WIN in NY. He didn’t want to be the next Anthony Davis or Kevin Garnett playing for a team that was still struggling to land stars and get into serious contention years from now.
He was giving these guys every chance to turn things around.
What he saw was a management team that alienated and then traded his best friend, screwed up the cap situation again with Hardaway, traded or allowed productive role players to leave, brought in NBA cast offs that are bad players on both sides of the ball, and most importantly a team that’s worse now than it was when they took over.
All of that may be fine and dandy on a forum that thinks chronic tanking is the “way, light, and truth”. But players want to see progress. Too many top players wasted half or more of their careers being loyal to dimwit organizations. This organization is being run by guys that do not value players well in terms of productivity or money. I know it. KP knows it. The rest of the NBA knows it. It was a smart career move for him to make it apparent to them that he was not happy and wanted out. Now he’s with an organization with a better track record of success and has a young budding superstar that he likes personally to build with going forward.
The Knicks have cap space (they will probably screw up) and have most likely set the rebuild back several years because they lost their best most seasoned young player.
Even the fact that Dallas’ protected pick converts to one second instead of two seconds if it isn’t conveyed is a worrying sign from Mills & Perry.
Value-wise I really think Perry did fine (not taking into account the mistakes that led us to this point, which all occurred prior to his tenure).
in terms of comparable situations:
Demarcus Cousins trade: Buddy Hield, the 10th pick in the draft, no salary relief. we clearly got more value than this, even though Cousins was NOT coming off a major injury.
Kyrie Irving trade: Broken Isiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Zizic, Nets 1st-round unprotected pick. This one is close, but also the Cavs did not get any salary relief, Isiah came injured.
Kawhi Leonard trade, bearing in mind Kawhi is 5x the player KP is: Derozan (nice player on a bad contract), Poeltl (likely to max out as a 5th best player on a good team), top 20 protected 1st, and the Spurs also had to give up Danny Green. No salary relief. No question the Knicks got better value than this for KP.
I have to say, I’ve been very impressed with Scott Perry. This is a decisive swing for the fences move that has downside (ie. KP blows up in Dallas and no one signs with the Knicks), but not THAT much downside – all assuming he doesn’t do dumb stuff this summer. If he doesn’t blow cap space on undeserving players, the worst that can happen is that we really start with a true rebuild with tons of financial flexibility and draft assets.
Actually we did this once before, trading for Antonio McDyess and sending out Mark Jackson, Marcus Camby, and the #7 pick.
That’s what hangs over this trade, JK47.
If Mills and Perry were just doing a hard reset on all the team’s past mistakes and starting fresh, I would be ok with this deal. We’re basically over all past mistakes right now except Noah. There’s value in that.
But I fear they are just setting themselves up to make new mistakes. Imagine if Durant goes to Brooklyn. You think they’re going to stay the course? They’re going to go all in on Kemba and Boogie, and they’re going to trade the first round picks for the Andrea Bargnani.
This deal was done behind closed doors prior to the Dallas game.
A video circulating of kp and luka all smiley and giddy says it all.
Cuban sees a tandem that makes Dallas a destination of the foreseeable future and he’s right …barring injury.
Great, let Cuban pay kp and those fans can grit their teeth every time kp lands hard. We have the gray Mitch lob licked up fir those high flying antics on a cost controlled contract. (A great move by our fo being overlooked here).
One can never predict what Durant is going to do, but really there are a lot of tea leaves pointing towards the Knicks. Durant’s manager/friend Rich Kleiman is a lifelong Knicks fan and native New Yorker. Durant’s best friend in the world is Royal Ivey, a Knicks assistant coach. And Durant wants/needs a new narrative after being portrayed as a carpetbagger latching onto the Warriors’ bandwagon. I just can’t imagine Durant passing up the Knicks to go to Brooklyn, even though the Nets’ are really pretty good. But maybe that’s just my Knicks-centric self talking.
So under GM Stratomatic, Doug McDermott, Justin Holliday, and Kyle O’Quinn are all still Knicks. I presume these are your “productive role players.” To what contracts have you signed them?
We got Dennis Smith Jr (a low basketball IQ player that doesn’t defend and that Dallas was trying to unload for weeks to no takers) and 2 future 1st round picks (that will probably be late 1st rounders by the time we get to use them) for a player that half dozen of the smartest organizations in the league were interested in – knowing full well they’d have to give him the max (because they value players correctly).
Lee was meaningless. This team is so far away from doing anything, we could have rode that contract out or moved him as an expiring at the end of the year for little or nothing. As horrible as Hardaway’s contract was, unless you KNOW you have a great use for that space, you do not pay to get rid of him at this stage of our development. You hold your nose and ride that out too.
They bet the ranch on filling that cap space with 2 stars this year otherwise they paid to open the space now for no good reason. That’s a huge gamble when the rest of your team sucks and your previous star just held up a bright neon sign saying this management team and organization suck so badly I want out.
And we got to this point for all the reasons I highlighted in my previous post.
The rebuild is still intact, but most likely it’s set back by 2-3 years as we try to replace our best young player with upside. You need 2 superstars or a superstar and 2 solid all stars. We have none of the above now.
I am under-the-radar actually pretty intrigued to see DSJ play with Mitchell Robinson.
Do the Nets have space for two max FAs this summer? I kind of like that for them, but I’m not a huge fan of the Knicks going all in with so little base to build on.
This was a surprisingly good haul all things considered. Frank, tnfh, and Jowles have got this one right.
This hurt to read, Brian.
I’m disappointed New Orleans wasn’t willing to call that bluff, but I can’t blame them for not wanting to take that risk.
It’s ridiculous that Mills and Perry took it seriously.
On the flip side (and there’s a strong flip side to everything with this trade, which is why I’m so schizo), I can actually see how Mills and Perry could have gotten so tired of KP, his camp, his bluffs, and his attitude that they just thought he isn’t worth the trouble and wanted to be done with him.
This was one of my first thoughts, too. It should be fun if nothing else.
The last time a full-time Knicks’ point guard (or any player) matched Smith’s 29.5 AST% from last year was…well you can probably guess. It was beautiful, but fleeting.
Yeah you mentioned this point yesterday re: the Clippers, Heat, Spurs etc.
Clippers have been run well since jerry West came on board.
I truly believe the Heat and Spurs have been rescued from horrible GM’ing by their absolutely superlative coaches. I mean look at some of the contracts on their books.
The mavericks have basically been a model of terrible management in the last 8 years or so until they managed the Luka trade. They’ve been living off the original Dirk trade (and his generosity by taking way less than he could get on the market).
In fairness to DSJ, he’s the best defensive point guard on our team according to real DPM.
Also I think the Knicks’ (and teams in general) leverage over KP is/was overstated. Players will just sign their contract then agitate to get moved if they really don’t want to be on the team. He would’ve found someone to sign him to a 2+1, gotten his guaranteed $, then asked for a trade in 2020.
anyone know if DSJ/Wes/DAJ will be in uniform tonight?
I’d add in Hernangomez, but yes. Any combination of those would have been better than paying for Mudiay, signing Hezonja, or eve taking a flier on Burke (which was no so bad) and other no skill players they come up with.
The idea is to take fliers on players with some skill or add productive players, not trash. But you have to be able to value players correctly. I give them all due credit for Vonleh, but more than likely a blind man could have come up with Vonleh given the pressing need for a PF that could defend and rebound on the team of trash they assembled.
Really smart article here from SI:
The smartest part = the question of where would we have been if we whiffed on FA’s this summer with Kristaps? we either whiff on FAs or we don’t. It seems more likely that KD will come if he gets to personally pick his running mate, than if he was shoehorned into a situation with less flexibility.
I already said that I’ll give my final grade on this trade in july, I don’t want to wait until the picks 🙂
And I get that we as a group have PTSD from past FO decisions.
But a day after the trade… I don’t get all the harsh criticism.
We spent months talking about why KP is not a max player, is not a superstar, how we’re worried about his return from injury.
We spent years talking about getting rid of Lee’s and THJ’s contracts and clear cap space.
Someone spent months crying about drafting Frank instead of DSJ.
All three things are resolved but that’s not good.
We get “assets” (2 1st, one unprotected!), but in some strange way that’s a very good thing when Ainge, Morey and Hinkie did it but a colossal error when Mills and Perry do it.
I think this is a ballsy move, a move that no one ever think our FO will do (and I don’t believe it was a 24hr decision, there are many reports from credible sources that they’re gauging KP’s trade value for weeks, because of his perennial passive-aggressive stance), again if other GMs did this they’re genius, but we’re a super coherent bunch so this is a shitty move.
The worst outcome is maybe Cousins and a washed up Kemba. That’ll be baaaad.
The middle outcome could be 4 years of Middleton (28-31 seasons) 4 years of Harris (27-30 seasons), 4 years of 44-48 wins and some playoff games. That, compared with the last 5 years, could be fun.
The best outcome is beyond everything we ever dreamed.
And anyway the “rebuild” is not over, with Mitch, Knox, DSJ, Frank, this year 1st (and maybe Trier and Dotson) even in the middle outcome we’re still working on a young base.
Perry and Mills could do a lot of things to screw this up, but right now I just don’t get the hate.
I’m a mild fan of that stat, but it occasionally comes up with a head scratcher. I don’t know what’s under the hood. I’m going to guess that sample size and other factors are an occasional problem.
I will only say that imo any stat that says DSJ is a better defender than Frank is not capturing some aspect of their play correctly. I’m not buying it. If it had them closer than my personal observation, I’d buy that I am a little wrong. But I’m not buying that DSJ is better.
So you would have signed McDermott’s 3/$21M deal? You would have signed Holliday’s 2/$9M deal? You would’ve increased the KOQ offer to make it clearly superior to Indiana’s, which he chose over our equal offer (I don’t think we had the cap space to do this but I also don’t remember)?
It’s very hard for me to see how any of those things except maybe the KOQ one would benefit the Knicks. On the contrary, they would make us very marginally better for a short period of time at the cost of a lot of flexibility and draft positioning. So they’d be pretty typical Knicks signings, actually.
Even with KOQ, the mistake was not moving him at the deadline. Once we had Robinson, Knox, and KP his potential place on the team became pretty unclear.
What it says to me is that he just escaped a 10-40 team to play with a player who, if the league were redrafting all 400+ players tomorrow, would be picked #1 by probably 28 of 30 teams.
I work for my industry’s best-in-class company. If it became clear that we had become the worst company, I would be pretty damn happy if a better opportunity came along. I’d be especially happy if I hadn’t made a sale in a year but were being offered mountains of cash based almost entirely on upside and potential.
The takeaway from the SI article really resonates with me-
there are a bunch of nice players that don’t move the needle, and then there are the superstars that really do create a contender out of thin air, especially when paired up. There are 2.5 of those on the market this summer in Durant, Kawhi, and Kyrie (I give Kyrie a 0.5), and Anthony Davis is somewhere out there too.
All this talk about McDermott, KOQ, etc etc — those are all rearranging deck chairs, that if rearranged just right leads you to 44 wins.
This is a huge swing by Perry to get access to the REAL difference-makers.
I would give a solid A for this trade.
What they gonna do with all that money available is a whole different story.
Bringing two 1st round picks makes the deal more reasonable. However I liked Porzingis for his elite defensive presence and versatility on offence (even though not very efficient) which makes him very easy to pair with other players.
I really didnt see Porzingis taking the QO as long as we equaled the max contract rival teams can offer (so, not the full 156 million we could theoretically have offered), although the ACL scared me a bit. I think he will shine in Dallas if healthy.
I get why they would go for Kyrie + Durant, but isn’t Kawhi + Durant a much better get? Is Kawhi just not going to play in the East Coast?
Obviously, key to this deal is what we do with our cap space this summer… if they dont bring Durant and Irving, I hope they rent their cap space for extra assets.
Thanks Jowles and Ingmarrr, truly appreciated. Yes, Knicks basketball is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things, and never smaller than when loved ones are suffering. But damn, I do love it so!
I just never thought that it would end like this. This hurts waaaaay more than when we didn’t match Lin, even though I stand by my guns that not matching that poison pill was logical (in that all smart GMs would not have matched, and that those who cried foul were mostly upset that Dolan, who routinely pissed tens of millions away on garbage, wouldn’t stupidly swallow the luxury tax only because he felt affronted by Lin.) This trade is even more logical, if you totally drain it of emotion. It’s not a no-brainer, but certainly less risky than maxing KP at this point.
How much do you think DSJ’s triple double at the Garden influence the outcome of the trade? Sample of one.
Ironically, I said literally the same thing three hundred comments ago:
But Brian’s retort was correct:
I do not claim to know a lot about stats or probabilities but I’ve been thinking a lot about this since yesterday.
This site is a stats based site yet a lot of people still make emotional hot takes (me included). But this franchise is not cursed. Dolan’s razor is not a thing. We do not have bad karma because of the Ewing trade.
The team has been bad over the last 19 years because for the large part we have made bad decisions. We’ve made win now trades for over the hill veterans. We traded first round picks to clear cap space in the hopes of landing superstars that weren’t interested in coming here. When they didn’t, we overpaid for pseudo stars and those signings killed our flexibility.
Bad decisions lower the probability of things going right. Every year I would talk myself into how our team could be good and the thing is, if it worked out the way I saw it working out in my head, the teams could have been good. But probability wise, the chances of that happening were slim. And since bad decisions lower your odds of things working out right, your forced to make more bad decisions.
But now, for the first time in my adult life, The Knicks have a completely clean slate and a cupboard full of picks and young, cheap players. We can sign free agents with our cap space. We can draft more young players. We can use our picks and players to make a trade for a star player and not have it completely wipe us clean.
Is it possible we waste the cap space on players who don’t deserve it, the mavs picks don’t come to us until 8 years from now and none of our picks or young players turn out good? Sure. But the probability of all of that happening is very slim. Even if we strike out in free agency or sign the wrong guy, we still have picks to build with. We have insurance now. The odds are in our favor and Perry and Mills have options to work with now. We are in control of our own destiny.
But Z-Man, I feel for your son. I really do. I was so excited about Porzingis when he first got here. My friend just bought a Porzingis baby jersey for his friend’s who just had a kid. We can make fun of people for being emotionally attached to players but basketball is entertainment at the end of the day and for many of us this is like rooting for the good guy in your favorite movie. Sports gives us emotion and narratives and storylines…that is why we watch it. That and it was sure fun watching him block fools and get those putback dunks.
I remember one sequence in the Christmas game 2 years ago against Boston where Zinger blocked the shit out of some celtics fool, ran the floor and got a putback dunk, then we got a steal and he nailed a 3…all in the span of about 30 seconds. I really do hope he does well (but not too well…I want those picks to be in the lottery!)
Sometimes we have to stand humbly before the facts.
OK. I’ve read mostly all these posts and I’m good with this deal. I’ve been a fan of KP. I like him as a player and as a person, but I’m tired of looking for upside. I’m tired of the “if he develops” conversations. “If KP becomes a better rebounder…”, “If KP becomes a more efficient scorer…”, “If TH2 becomes a 50/40/90 guy…”, “If Bargnani can attack those closeouts…”
We, for YEARS, have been getting basketball players that have to become different/ better/ players that they presently not are/ to be good. It’s one thing to take a flier on a couple of guys like that. It’s another thing to have a team full of them. It’s another thing to sign someone like that to a max deal.
Now, as to having the guts to make a deal, this took that. Z-Man’s son is crushed. Sorry Z. Honestly. I was crushed when the Mets traded Seaver. Think of what many BOS fans must have thought initially when Ainge moved Garnett and Pierce. When he moved IT. We legit fall in love with these people. They become part of our hopes and dreams. That’s part of sports. That’s my beef with folks like Jowles sometimes. I want to like this guy. I want to believe. That belief will keep me going even in the face of cold evidence sometimes.
So, this hurts, but it is the proper move. KP is not a max player. Will he hit a nice turn around J or two in his return to MSG next year? I wouldn’t bet against it. Will he ever be the lead player on a great team? I doubt it.
We now have the opportunity to sign two players demonstrably better than him, draft seven in the first round that could be as good or be part of the mix in a coherent team building strategy, and continue to work with young players and develop their upside (but not rely on it.)
I get that we’re Knick fans and can’t have nice things but we have the opportunity to reverse that. Perry / Mills now need to make shrewd decisions going forward.
Word was that the Knicks along the Clippers were two of the franchises that Kawhi was willing to accept a trade to back when he was in San Antonio busting to get off the Spurs.
Yeah I think this is right. The Knicks position right now is very good! Not as good as it would be if we had used our last two lottery picks well instead of poorly, but still pretty good. We have some young talent (not as much as we should have but…alas), all our own picks going forward (including one this year that will be somewhere between very good and ultra premium), some extra picks in the bank, and very nearly a completely clean slate in terms of negative assets (just Noah’s dead money). I think we all suspect they’re going to blow it by criminally misusing their salary cap space this summer after they miss out on the big guns, but today on 2/1/19 they’re very well positioned and the trade is a big part of that.
Good posts, swift. For what it’s worth, I think professional sports is at its best when there is some irrational attachment. For example, the Sixers could probably move to the front of the AD line if they made Embiid available, and they’d be a better team if they swapped the two. They’re not going to do that though because they want to win with Embiid. I’m okay with that–the more professional sports teams deviate from what is essentially a corporate model, the better. I’m sure the Yankees could’ve sold high on Jeter’s somewhat inflated reputation at some point, but I’m very happy they didn’t.
That’s why I’m still bummed about the trade despite thinking it’s a good move from a basketball perspective. I want, like, one god damn player to be associated with the Knicks in a positive way in my lifetime.
However, for perfectly valid reasons KP did not want to be that guy. When taking that into account, I think the move was correct no matter how you look at it.
I was reading this thread in reverse and knew exactly who said this before I got to the original post.
Yes, stratomatic: any stat that summarizes a player’s 3,000 minutes has got to be less accurate than the maybe 200 minutes you’ve watched of Mavs games since last year. I’m sure your copious notes and game-film breakdown are worthy of dismissing any statistic, really.
It’s shocking how much faith you have in your completely subjective assessment of literally every player in the NBA.
Really hope trading for Dennis Smith doesn’t mean we’re averse to drafting Morant if we’re not #1 in the lottery. I still prefer him over Barrett, who I think is solidly #3 at this point in time.
something something horse racing
Agreed, but I also think Dennis Smith is being overlooked as part of this trade. I’ll again go with the “shoe on the other foot” example–if we had a player who was wildly productive in the ACC, had a rough rookie year but showed flashes, and then made major growth in year 2 at age 21, there’s not a single poster here who would think that player was definitely a bust.
I like his chances at being a rotation level player and I think his ceiling is higher than that, but what worries me is the possibility of him playing superficially well and then us overpaying to keep him. It’s the same dilemma people are having with the trade itself. We can only hope Scott Perry isn’t a moron and it’s pretty anxiety-inducing!
This comment hits exactly the sentimental cause of my meltdown when first hearing the news, but I actually like the trade now.
Z-man makes a similar point about Willis, Clyde, and Bradley being homegrown.
I’ve just got to remind myself that KP is hardly Jeter, Willis, Clyde, or Bradley, and continue to hope some of our younger players bloom into real stars.
I’m fairly bullish on Smith–I think he stands a good chance to be a solid rotation player, though I’m in doubt of his star power. I’m just much more bullish on Morant, who looks to be in his best case the second coming of Westbrook.
No offense to any of the guys here, but my most highly esteemed Knicks blog writer over the years, mostly dormant these days, just authored a masterpiece about this cataclysm.
Look, it sucks that we have to get rid of our most valuable asset in order to dump two stupid contracts (and of course, don’t forget the Noah contract plays into this as well) But we were all agonizing about maxing out KP and watching him be Mr. November again and get hurt every year.
And I know we all have Knicks fan PTSD and always expect the worst, but do you really think Perry is going to give a big chunk of cap space to Boogie Fuckin’ Cousins?
I’m fine with this deal. And I have a feeling that there were a lot of clandestine communications between Knicks management and Durant’s agent that made Perry feel like he could pull the trigger on this deal.
No player in the history of rookie deals has been able to pull off the bluff that Porzingis just pulled off. I’ll be interested to see if this is a sign of what’s to come or a one-off situation taking advantage of a dumb team. My money is on the latter.
The more I read, the more I get flashbacks to the time they traded Randolph and Crawford to clear space. If these big FAs come woohoo! If not, we kicked the can down the road to add to our collection of failed Lottery pick PGs.
Yup. Morant is being oddly overlooked for a guy putting up historic numbers (and as a freshman he was just as good as Fultz/Ball/Fox). I would honestly sign up for him right now even though that would take Zion out of the picture. That would be a waaaaaay above median outcome for this particular draft.
“This was not the ultimate Knicks trade, but it was the ultimate Knicks feeling. A review of all Knicks feelings. A kaleidoscopic, palimpsestic soot of 20 years’ scorched bullshit.”
Seth out of blogtirement. One of the all time greats. Trust him to get it perfectly.
Well, now that we have traded KP, should we trade Knox and Smith too? Giddyup.
DBPM isn’t a fact. It’s a defensive stat that overlooks the impact of not being able to stay in front of your man if you can come up with an extra steal or two every other week.
Yeah, me too. There’s a lot of great fathers on this board. I remember mine having to console me when the Bulls ran up the score on the Knicks in Game 7 of the 92 EC QF. I’m still not over Smiling Cliff Levingston rubbing it in.
This is really funny (and obviously a bit unfair)
Can the Lakers trade for AD and then sign Kyrie in the offseason? Because this would make sense of Kyrie’s sudden apology to LeBron a couple of weeks ago, and it’s a sure fire championship core.
I had to look up palimpsest and I still don’t understand
I wasn’t referencing DBPM. I was referencing DRPM.
Nate Duncan absolutely loves this trade for the Knicks. Not sure if anyone has brought up his podcast yet, but to heard a smart analytics guy gush over the trade from our side was pretty encouraging.
They certainly can, they’ll have enough cap space for Kyrie easily. Unless it’s a crazy ass trade where they only send expirings to New Orleans, which is really impossible to believe.
@115 Hmm. So let’s see. If I’m AD and I’m best friends with Kyrie, where would I rather go, to LA to play with LeBron for Magic Johnson, or to NY to play for Dolan? Tough call isn’t it.
@112 it sent me to the dictionary too
imagine a white board that’s been vandalized for years. tons of dicks drawn all over it. you wipe it off, and it’s as clear as you can make it, but you can still kinda see the dicks.
now people are still trying to write equations on the whiteboard and have its content taken seriously, but the ghost images of the dicks are on there and they’ll always be there.
I was about to weigh in but that is too perfect.
The idea that the Knicks had to trade their best asset, a young 7 foot 3 guy with some pretty unique upside, just to dump the crappy contracts the front office got themselves into makes it pretty underwhelming. Add to that the long odds of signing two max worthy free agents in July – ask yourself, when was the last time that actually happened? I can only think of once, Miami in 2010 with LeBron making it happen. I would be elated but quite surprised if they ended up with KD at all much less him and another max worthy free agent.
We’ll have to wait and see, but this whole “ freeing up cap space to sign max free agents” plan very rarely works. More likely they end up overpaying for some 2nd tier all stars.
@117 as a middle-school educator, this really made me lol!
@90, 92, 109 thanks guys. One irony is that at draft time he really wanted us to draft Mudiay over KP. I guess he got his wish! 🙂
AD has to be traded to the Lakers for their pile of young players in order for them to pull this off. Remember, the same group of young players that lost to the Knicks at home without Lebron is the only group of players that has lost to the Knicks in the last SIX WEEKS.
The trouble from the Lakers perspective is that their young players just aren’t that good. Lonzo’s fine, Brandon Ingram kinda looks like he sucks, Kuzma is as one-way a guy as there is. But none of these guys really moves the needle. And their draft picks are all going to be terrible.
Honestly, is there a young player on the Lakers you would trade Mitchell Robinson or Dallas’s unprotected 2021 pick for? it’s a no for me. Not sure, but I think possibly even THCJ would agree with me on this.
now people are still trying to write equations on the whiteboard and have its content taken seriously, but the ghost images of the dicks are on there and they’ll always be there.
excellent. in fact, this is how i actually picture the exit meeting when janis told steve mills they wanted out (nsfw):
Following Following @ShamsCharania
Anthony Davis is focused on the Lakers as his top preferred destination, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA @WatchStadium. The Knicks are also as a preferred landing spot, and made push to New Orleans with offer around Kristaps Porzingis before the Dallas deal.
1:18 PM – 1 Feb 2019
This will likely amount to nothing, but it’s good to see that the KP situation didn’t tarnish our reputation around the league.
That’s a little better. But correct me if I’m wrong: doesn’t that require a baseline of what the team did without you on the court? It seems like something that can generate an unreliable indication of your defense if JJ Barea is your backup.
I haven’t really seen enough of Smith to know if that stat is noise. I suspect he’s inferior to Frank but will “stand humbly before the facts” if that suspicion proves wrong here.
I think I’d move the pick for Lonzo, but your point is well taken.
Holy sht this is perfect:
Nate Duncan podcast on the KP trade is here.
He’s pretty bullish on the trade for us.
Also, I’m on board with everyone who’s said “what’s the point of KD and Kyrie now anyway?” I just don’t see that being very appealing with this current roster.
My preferred outcomes to this trade are:
1. We win the lottery and go forward slowly with the Zion era, without any max free agents, using the cap space to acquire asset after asset in a long, steady build to a dominant team around Zion.
2. If we don’t win the lottery, we make use the extra ammo to swap. Let’s say Phoenix wins the lottery. Offer them something like our top 5 pick, next year’s pick (top 5 protected), Dennis Smith, and Dallas’ unprotected pick to move up.
3. Try to make the best offer to New Orleans for AD and then sign Kyrie.
4. Be patient.
Yeah, thanks for posting Seth’s blog. I stopped going to P&T as much since he left but that was fantastic. I do think there’s an emotional side of this that that he captured perfectly. Along with everyone else my faith in KP definitely wavered over time and while I would have bit the bullet and maxed him if it was my call I wasn’t gung-ho about it. Still going to smart seeing him in another jersey, and if he becomes what we all at one point believed he might it’s going to be just devastating.
If this team could just be NORMAL and stop making OBVIOUS GLARING MISTAKES it would be nice. I’m glad to have gotten two 1RPs for Porzingis (well, probably they’ll both end up being 1RPs) but once again we had to give up something of value to paper over past mistakes. That’s a recipe for treading water.
The way to stop treading the water is to not give out max contracts to guys who cannot outperform them, not to burn this cap space on the usual sack of magic beans, but Lucy has pulled the football away from me too many times at this point. I’m just going to assume this team is going to give out more huge mistake contracts until they prove to me that they won’t.
Still a bit numb. Not angry at all, but sad like Z has said. It sure would be nice to build around a “home grown” talent like KP. If the FO hangs onto the 2019 pick, I guess we have a 14% chance of that happening anytime soon.
However, yeah, his injury, contract situation, diva-ishness, and iso-tendencies etc. make the trade make sense. The Knicks picked up some very useful assets: lots of cap space, two potentially good picks (but they could run anywhere from great to so-so). I’m not at all a DSJ fan…I hope they flip him for something, though if they keep him he should definitely start at the one with Frank at the two.
I go with Brian on a C grade right now, but really it is an Incomplete. So much depends on what the Knicks do with those assets. If they go “big game hunting” and come up with nothing but squirrel roadkill, this will really suck. I’d love them renting the space for more picks and continue a patient rebuild (this being just the first year of 3-4 years), but that’s not what the FO is aiming for.
Hubert, if you’re going to fantasize, how can you not be fantasizing about Kyrie, KD, and Zion all playing on the Knicks in 2019-20?
I was shocked to discover the Mavs pick that Atlanta got was 1-5 protected but that was nothing compared to discovering that wasn’t Renee Zellwegger.
Also, since it’s now on to talking about offseason FA targets. I don’t really want Flat Earth that much. And my buddy who is friends with one of the GS owners says there is no way Durant is coming here. And honestly, why the hell would he?
DRPM is not the end all be all defensive metric. It just looks at the score of a game for when a player in on the court as the primary variable while controlling for the impact of different lineups, courts, opponents, etc. But its the best we currently have and it has DJS as our best defensive point guard. Trier is considered the worst in the league BTW.
quite possible this was their thought process – that while KP might be great, the combination of his weaknesses (lack of overall athleticism, poor rebounding, diva attitude) and injury risk made him likely to underperform a max contract.
If we won the Zion sweepstakes I would really rather take it slow.
I’d acquire as many draft picks as possible taking on salary dumps with our cap space. I’d draft at the top of the lottery again in 2020. I’d probably draft there again in 2021 and have an extra pick from Dallas. Then I’d start making my moves when Zion is in his third year.
The Knicks right now are like a 29 year old kid who just paid off all his student loans and a decade of credit card debt acquired through overspending. Other than Joakim Noah’s $6mm and the 2nd round pick we’re giving to Brooklyn this year,there are no mistakes hanging over this team for the first time since… the Patrick Ewing trade! How fucking great does that feel?
Are we going to go straight back into debt or do it right this time? Granted, Kyrie and KD are hardly terrible mistakes. But Kyrie’s got injury issues and KD is 31. Why do we have to win a chip in Zion’s first year? Let him get his feet wet and by the end of his second year will have Zion Williamson and a Hinkie-level number of trade chips and cap space. That’s my fantasy.
I truly believe this is the wrong thing to do. If KD and Kyrie want to come play for your team, you pretty much have to make it happen. The 2020 draft is supposed to be bad. You could fall to the 5th pick even if you are the worst team in the league. And if the team is bad, maybe Zion does exactly what KP just did, which is agitate (and injure himself) out of town.
Yeah I’m about as cautious as anyone but KD and Kyrie pretty much gives you a 50 win floor assuming you can put your pants on correctly. From there you’d still need to be smart about signings, draft picks, etc. but that’s pretty much the team you want to put together when you build through the draft anyway.
I wonder how that kid who cried when they drafted KP is taking this.
I will certainly not be angry if next year’s Knicks feature Zion, Durant, and Kyrie.
I’m just saying if I won the Zion sweepstakes I’d be patient. What if it turns out that he works best as a ball dominant center, for instance? I’d rather give him the ball and build around him than shoehorn him in as the third guy behind Durant and Kyrie.
So for 2019 and beyond, the Knicks have the following players under contract:
Overall that is a very crummy group of players. That’s Mitch Robinson, three recent draft picks that have played like busts and two one-dimensional guards. I don’t know how you put a quality team around two max players with a pitiful supporting cast like that. The guy who is far and away the best player out of that group doesn’t really know how to play basketball yet and averages 6.5 fouls per 36 minutes. And yes, there will be one more lottery pick in the picture, but if that lottery pick isn’t Zion Willamson, you’re probably looking at adding yet another guard to the mix.
I don’t really know about this whole “two max contracts” plan. This shit looks mad shaky to me.
so it does relate to NYK 😉
Can someone please tell me what it means to “rent cap space”
Beck’s BR article:
If you get past the clickbait headline, some interesting quotes and takes.
Trade for another team’s bad contract in exchange for a sweetener, usually first round pick(s) or very interesting young player(s) on cheap deal.
This can especially be interesting during FA time when teams are looking to clear some cap space to sign an expensive free agent.
@142 Pat Riley gutted his roster in 2010 to form the Heatles, and the remaining players were all marginal at best. Granted, you’re talking about LeBron who wins with every roster, but I’ll take my chances with Kevin Durant, who IMO is the 2nd best player of our generation after LBJ.
In his podcast on the trade Simmons claims he knows for a fact that Wade and Lebron wanted to come to the Knicks and then Dolan and Donnie Walsh fucked up their meeting with Lebron so badly they started looking for a plan B
If KD and Kyrie actually do come, it probably means that Knox and Frank will be traded for veterans. Could imagine something like Knox + Frank + a protected pick for cost-controlled role player like Robert Covington for instance, especially if Minnesota continues to stink.
IIRC, I read at the time that Walsh came in a wheelchair (looking weak…I think he had just had surgery or something) and Dolan was slimy and bossy. The take was that it was an inept recruiting attempt.
If they can get KD, they have to do it. But, he is on the wrong side of 30.
oh my gosh…still making my way through today’s thread…lot’s of good stuff – this piece by frank (#22) really stuck out though:
kp was about to be an issue for us (that’s the new york knickerbockers front office and us) – and, seemed ready to try to gain leverage on not only possibly leaving, but, trying to pick his landing spot…
I don’t think there’s any way in hell that New Orleans or the league lets AD go to the Lakers except as an unrestricted free agent, and I don’t blame them.
I think the Knicks have a pretty competitive package for AD – better than the Lakers package – and if I’m the Pels, I want this done sooner, not later, to get the rebuild started. Then, once we have AD, we pick between Kyrie and KD. I’m not worried about filling in the blanks around the pair of stars.
I don’t mean to get into a name drop competition but I have a friend at Andreessen Horowitz (a VC firm in SF that works with Durant) and he’s been convinced Durant is going to NY all year. This is the same season ticket holder I quoted here recently talking about how Durant isolates himself on the bench during games.
My personal guess is that Durant did want to come here, but given everything that’s played out this season, he probably sees Brooklyn as a much more attractive way to play in New York. They have everything he wants in a basketball situation and he gets to be in a big market without any of the pressure. It seems perfect. But that’s just me projecting logic on a blank canvas.
Yeah, but they had three max players. We’d have two.
I’m not really sure Durant + Irving + a bunch of dreck is really the best plan, but whatevs.
Any combination of AD, Kyrie, KD, Kawhi + Zion would be magical. Of course with AD we aren’t going to have the pick for this year. I want Kawhi and KD + Zion personally. That would be one hell of a frontcourt.
My link is to a really thoughtful article about the trade from Tom Scholes of Franchise Sports
And here’s a good place to say that I’ve always felt that KP was overrated because of his Unicorn like nature. Here are some numbers to illustrate: KP is compared to Deandre Jordan, the guy we’re getting
Career PPG: Jordan 9.5, KP 17.8,
Career RB: Jordan 10.8, KP 7.1
Career Assists: Jordan .8, KP 1.3
Career FG%: Jordan 67.1, KP 43.7
Career BLK: Jordan 1.7, KP 2
Some more general comments. KP is the better scorer but he has a much worse shooting percentage. The reason is that Jordan doesn’t fling up those long 2 pointers. Jordan never leaves the paint. In passing, KP has a lead of .5 more assists per game. KP should be an elite shot blocker but Jordan’s not far behind. They use different techniques. KP can (and does) block shots by jumping straight, using his height. Jordan blocks more like Kyle O’Quinn. He’s stronger than KP so he can stay up on his man and block the shot through timing. Jordan has, throughout his career (the Clippers until this season with the Mavs) been considered an elite defender and that’s why the Mavs traded for him but now the word out of Dallas is that he’s not playing good defense but it “disinterested”. I doubt he’s deteriorated in one year and put these comments down to team chemistry but it does suggest that the Mavs don’t value him so highly as when they acquired him. KP’s best attribute as a defender overall is protecting the rim because of his height but Jordan plays more and Oakley style of defense which KP cannot do. When KP is not playing around the basket, say he is guarding a forward, his lack of footspeed works against him. And last point, Jordan has never played fewer that 70 games since his rookie year. KP, in his 3 seasons has played 48, 66, and 72 games.
Ha. Aren’t there like a billion part owners of the Warriors. I am sure none of them know anything. If I were Durant I would stay. It would cost him a lot of money to leave right? But his legacy is at stake I guess. It’s dumb but that’s the way it is. Durant doesn’t control his own narrative.
Also +1 on the slow build if we get Zion. It would be insane to pass on using the cap space. It will never ever happen. But having waited 25 years for something like Zion to happen I would want the full experience of going from the bottom to the top.
I really don’t think that’s happening. These guys want the narrative. There’s no narrative with the Nets. His best buddy is an assistant coach on the knicks. his close business partner and friend has been a Knicks fan forever. I mean what do I know but if I’m Durant and want to put my name up there (and even beyond, honestly) with Lebron, Jordan, etc., you sort of have to bring a title to the Knicks. No one’s going to care much if Brooklyn wins.
If it was completely up to me there’s a very good chance I’d go with the long rebuild. But I think we’d have a decent shot at getting some production out of MitchRob/Trier/DSJ/2019 pick, putting aside Frank and Knox. Then you’d have to hit the ring-chaser market.
After the emotional reaction that Z-man’s son went through (sorry, Z-M!) and ptmilo described, I’ve been able to be more rational and appreciate the POV first espoused by tnfh and detailed by Frank. In a vacuum, this actually is a good trade, for all the reasons others have discussed. But it’s not a total vacuum, as we’ve seen the kinds of players Perry has signed, and DSjr is a trigger on that as well. It is very easy to imagine that they don’t fully appreciate the opportunity they just created, and they blow it on a series of bad moves.
They don’t have to. They could get it right. Imagine this:
We don’t get the first pick, but we get the second. We take Ja.
KD and Kawhi both sign.
We resign Vonleh and/or pick up a couple useful vets.
Would anyone hate a team featuring:
with DSjr, Trier, Dotson, Kornet, Vonleh off the bench? Alternatively, we package DSjr and/or Frank plus a pick for a decent SG, because for the first time in forever, we have a lot of assets and young players.
To me that’s an ECF team. And that’s if we DON’T get our wish and draft Zion. Still better than anything we’ve had for decades.
Edit: I forgot Knox! So we trade him too, and get an even better SG.
Some pretty wild quotes from Kyrie today:
“come and do my job every single day and see what happens” sounds a little scary for Celtic fans IMHO.
Oops, in my prior post (#159), I overlooked KP’s poor rebounding (10.8, Jordan, 7.1, KP). That’s quite a deficit for KP and a major dent in the Unicorn narrative.
Oh yeah? Well Karl Anthony Towns’ mom lives three houses down the street from me and my nephew, who didn’t know who he was when they met, is convinced he’s not coming here. So there.
Yeah, I think I injured my eye rolling at that one. Gimme a break. The Heat had room for three maxes and Wade was already there, but he and Lebron were going to pass that up to go to the Knicks but then Donnie Walsh was in a wheelchair so they changed their minds? No effin’ way.
That said, I do think Donnie Walsh being in a wheelchair made a bad impression and I believe Lebron thought that their presentation was bad. I can easily buy that. I just don’t buy that he and Wade hadn’t already made up their minds to go to Miami to play with the third max guy, Bosh.
In all seriousness, I’d trade him today based on that shit. Get whatever you can get, even if it’s, like, a protected first round pick – or maybe some team has an expiring player who the Celtics could use? I dunno. Then make your godfather offer for Anthony Davis (Tatum plus all the picks) and sign Kemba Walker in the offseason.
probably gets you as far as they were going to get with Irving and then you can add Walker in the offseason to that lineup.
Yesterday, from thenamestsam:
A very reasonable assumption. But today, from Howard Beck:
Teams always say this type of sour grape bullshit when a deal like this happens. Same type of talk occurred after Toronto pulled the trigger for Leonard.
If teams didn’t know that Kawhi Leonard was available, then that’d be pretty sad on their part.
Which is why my rose-colored glasses view is just that. Do I really expect all those good things to happen for us? No. I expect the equivalent of trading Willy for two seconds, signing Mudiay, signing Hezonja, trading KP quickly without doing due diligence, etc.
But this is a total tear-down that leaves the slate almost clean, with a bunch of assets (of modest quality) in the cupboard. So good things COULD happen…
They just probably won’t. But swift, I loved your post, and let’s all hope that for once the optimists are right.
Kyrie is gone in a heartbeat if he finds a situation he likes better. The idea that he was going to be loyal to the Celtics in the first place was absurd. He should have never made the original comments guaranteeing he’d sign there.
I haven’t yet said it, and I think a few people have alluded to it, but the way the KP thing played out definitely owes something to the influence of Melo. The Melo trade was truly terrible, but the terribleness was magnified in ways that are hard to measure…such as the impact he had as a mentor on players like KP. The signs have been there since skipping the exit meeting – an immature and graceless move.
The part about making a better offer. The talk at the time was Spurs didn’t net nearly as much as was assumed they could have for a player like Leonard. That they didn’t do enough enough haggling with the Lakers or Celtics to get better than DeMar DeRozan, Jakob Poeltl and a protected 2019 first-round pick from Toronto.
Oh sure, but they’re saying here that the Knicks didn’t even let teams know he was available. That seems much odder, no? I’m not saying that it isn’t bullshit, as I could easily belive it is just bullshit, but it’s still an unusual thing to hear at all, even from a team lying about it.
If we’re fantasizing about two max guys, I find the less spoken about combo of KD and Kawhi much more appealing. It also dovetails nicely with the low cost talent we have, if you believe Dennis Smith and Frank Ntilikina can eventually stop sucking.
You could run out:
With Knox, Trier, Dotson, and whoever we draft coming off the bench.
It’s still stars and kids and all the kids not named Mitch are suspect, but at least those 5 could D from day 1.
Kyrie is gone in a heartbeat if he finds a situation he likes better.
one pair of faulty airpods and kyrie is in line at starbucks overhearing two paragraphs of someone’s audible.com copy of eat pray love and he’s off for two years of rumspringa in search of the real ricky williams. no sane human could trust a kyrie wink and neither should kyrie. odds shark has him at +800 to join lebron in LA next year and +850 to be running patrick byrne’s mythical crypto empire.
Meanwhile, who plays tonight? Who starts? Should Jordan and Matthews even be suited up (vs. sit them out to avoid injury in the hopes that they can yield 2nd round picks)?
If they do suit up and start with DSJ, should the team be temporarily named the New York Mavericks for a few games?
BTW, Mudiay has to know that he’s a goner, right? How much angrier will Kanter get if Jordan starts and plays a lot?
Here’s my problem with this particular take which has been circulating here a bit. I definitely get the feeling that we can fuck this royally up. But if you agree that the trade is an indication of intelligent thinking and thoughtful planning, then why shouldn’t we assume that there is more intelligent and thoughtful planning from the front office regarding what they intend to do with the picks and newfound cap space?
I also get that people are going to shit on the process behind the trade to justify the typical pessimism against a deal which looks good from an analytical perspective. But can we at least entertain the possibility that we didn’t talk to several teams because we were never interested in trading KP to those franchises in the first place? For example, there was no way on God’s green Earth that we were trading KP to any of our Atlantic rivals in Boston, Philadelphia or Brooklyn despite each of these teams definitely showing interest in him at one point or another. And who can blame Mills or Perry on that account? Remember when Popovich refused to trade Kawhi to the Lakers?
That would be fun, if highly unlikely to happen. Man, Frank and Kawhi guarding the wings? That would be fun to watch, even though I don’t like DSJ as a player, and less as a pouting-sitting out games-poor man’s-DRose. But, maybe the trade will be a wake-up call for him?
If they do get Kyrie, then DSJ has to be a goner. Imagine how he’d sulk.
This dovetails well with my previous post. I am not convinced we should’ve expected the FO to tell everyone about their interest in trading KP. I am sure the Celtics and Nets, even Philly, are salty as Hell for not being notified by Mills/Perry about KP’s trade status. But they can kick rocks.
Ok. But literally no one said “they traded him before anyone knew he was available”. Kawhi’s soap opera lasted one year. Everyone had an opportunity.
Scott Perry might suck at evaluating basketball players, but he’s been around the league for so long that I highly doubt he badly dropped the ball on letting teams know KP was available. He says they were having conversations with multiple teams and went with the best offer. We know at a bare minimum that they checked in with New Orleans. The market for an injured guy about to get $156 million dollars was likely not as robust as people think.
Like I said yesterday, it’s quite possible there was a legitimate sense of urgency because once KP went nuclear our leverage was donezo. I’m a little surprised we were even able to get this deal through the finish line when it leaked that KP might take the QO.
Shouldn’t we be salty as hell if Perry didn’t bother to check in with three of the most asset-rich teams in the league?
Because of what I referenced earlier in the post – the earlier bad moves the FO has made, including trading for Mudiay (trading for Mudiay!), selling Willy at lowest value (also, by the way, a friend of KP’s, which probably also impacted his feelings on things…not that that should matter overmuch), signing Hez (why?), etc. The Melo trade was good – just to get rid of Melo was an achievement – and the Vonleh and Trier signings were good. But they have shown they overvalue a certain kind of player, and the implications of that are bad.
Is my earlier post at 159 saying the same thing invisible or something? Sheesh.
Of course. Any max free agent is highly unlikely to happen.
I’m just saying if Durant wants to come here and he wants a max sidekick… why is the speculation about Kyrie? He and Kawhi are perfect for each other and they fit well with the young players already here.
All three of those teams are in our division and we play them 4 times a year each. Do we really want to help out a team in our own division that is all ready better than us by giving them a possible all-star franchise center? A guy who probably would then be super motivated to light us up every time we play them?
This is why I am skeptical about these reports. The idea that “most teams” needed to know KP was available isn’t necessarily a given. What if Perry/Mills just decided to identify a few key teams that were in the right conference, had the right assets, and could provide the relief they were looking for in the eventuality of a trade? We know they at least looked at New Orleans and Dallas. w
Kawhi is an odd dude and does not seem to be a natural fit for the NYC spotlight.
I love how we can complain about everything here. People complain about trade rumors getting leaked and potentially hurting the chances of the trade going through but then complain because it happened so quickly (in the public’s eye) that it must mean they rushed the trade. Maybe Perry is just really good at making sure this stuff doesn’t get leaked out early.
You expected Mills/Perry to even entertain the idea of trading KP to Brooklyn, Boston or Philadelphia? Can anyone even point to one instance where a franchise was willing to trade their cornerstone to a divisional rival in the history of the NBA? Maybe when the Bullets traded Earl Monroe to the Knicks? I don’t even know. Was never going to happen.
You’re making fair points about the unreliable nature of unidentified sources. It could very well all be coming from Sean Marks, bitter that his grand plan blew up.
FWIW, I would always take the best deal on the table from anyone, even if it was someone in my division.
Hell, I think I’m more impressed that the front office actually didn’t let most of the NBA know about their trade interest. It shows a.) they had a plan for potential suitors who were a match for what they wanted (like Dallas and New Orleans), b.) and are disciplined enough to control information about a very difficult situation. I’d be more unsettled if the front office didn’t show focus and dangled KP like bait hoping someone would bite. They were able get a legitimate haul while making this whole once unthinkable ordeal as painless as possible.
Before I waste too much time playing on the Trade Machine, what teams could A)actually use either of DeAndre or Matthews, and B)have expiring salaries to match? Houston, for instance, just needs bodies at this point, but they’d have to give us somebody like Knight, whose salary goes into next season.
If we have to buy them out, so be it. Don’t let them fuck up the tank. But it’d be nice to at least stockpile a couple of additional 2nd rounders.
I was thinking along the same lines. My first Knicks heartbreak was waiting 2 years for Bernard King to comeback, and they simply turned their backs on him and ushered in the Ewing era with Pitino. I would love a homegrown hero.
The list of assets the Knicks now possess, would anyone argue that this is a good situation for a known competent front office? Are we worried simply because we view the Knicks FO through the lens of the past performance?
If they do all the right things, They franchise could be set up for a decade of success. Suppose:
1. Secure 2 of KD/Kyrie/Kawhi
2. Draft Zion
3. 2-3 of current kiddie corps develop into NBA rotation players (mitch, dot, trier, dsj, knox,)
4. Draft well in 2020 (think 86 pistons hitting on salley and rodman who made their bench lethal)
5. Conference finals in 2020
6. Finals 2021
7. Max guys age out Knicks get a lottery and late 1st rounder in 2021 to restock, while Zion takes next step into stratosphere
8. Youngsters are no longer young and fuel 8 year run
9. Extra first from Dallas in 2023 just to keep the momentum…
DARE TO DREAM
looks like farfa picked a bad week to stop sniffing that knick glue…
I was thinking Houston as well. They seem like a great fit for Jordan. Rotating him Capella would do wonders for their interior defense.
Before I waste too much time playing on the Trade Machine, what teams could A)actually use either of DeAndre or Matthews, and B)have expiring salaries to match? Houston, for instance, just needs bodies at this point, but they’d have to give us somebody like Knight, whose salary goes into next season.
a good fit might be the kings for koufos and randolph expirings plus the minny and orlando 2nds. they have no incentive to tank and he might help them a bit.
they almost definitely did not maximize his trade value but can we say the Knicks sold Willy at his lowest? would Charlotte now get equivalent value back for him when accounting for the fewer years of control?
if you want to look for players to mix and match without going team by team on the trade machine, this is a good link: https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/players.html
Yep, you can’t win big if you don’t dream big. I am fine with the Knicks not being a franchise of half-assed measures anymore. For years we’ve complained about how they managed their franchise just to win a low seed/early round playoff exit. Now we have a front office that is going for broke – rather intelligently for once – in both the draft and free agency. They’re finally trying in a way that doesn’t put all of their eggs in one basket on the free agent market or draft. But unlike many in Knicks fandom, I’m thrilled about it. Even if it doesn’t play out the way we hope, at least there’s a smart process here.
I think there was also a lot of extracurricular stuff going on in that situation regarding the Noah, KP, Willy triumvirate that the front office wanted to break up. Probably one of many issues that didn’t endear the front office to Kris or vice-versa.
At this point the people who are still down on this trade have basically two arguments:
1) We didn’t hear about it till it happened so therefore the Knicks must have missed out on a better deal (for a player on the final year of his contract coming off an ACL injury).
2) The Knicks might screw up free agency this summer.
Yep, and the screwing up free agency thing was already possible. If you don’t like the deal, you essentially would rather have KP on a max than DSJ, the two 1sts, plus the $25-30M opportunity cost back from not signing KP. Given we were also able to unload THJ, I think we’re in a better position today.
@ 200 – The Knicks are literally in the best position they have ever been in during my entire adult life to build an actual, sustainable good team. If you are not hopeful right now you really should stop rooting for this team. Being mad that they created an opportunity to fuck it up is the most absurd argument I have ever heard (and I made an argument justifying the bargnani trade).
But if we had just held onto to Willy we could have kept KP!
LET THIS SHIT GO.
This. It’s like being mad about dating Rihanna because you’re eventually going to breakup.
I was doing some research on what players in the draft after Zion would be good if we wanted shooters (you know, if god forbid we actually got two max free agents). There is literally no one projected in the top 10 who can shoot. Morant, Little, Barrett, Reddish, Langford, Culver, Porter… none of these guys can shoot.
I found one guy I like. He’s currently rated 14th:
Dude is shooting 42% from 3 on 4.6 attempts per 40 with a .626 TS%. I haven’t watched any Kentucky games. His stats are great. Why isn’t he getting draft love?
@ 201, hopefully it was clear that I agree with you. While I was initially terrified at the lack of picks and then thought they would end up being minimal, given how good they are I think it’s a good deal. If we have even decent lottery lock (I’m talking just getting Morant or Barrett or something) and get one quality star in free agency, hard not to feel great about how much we’ve improved our position in a year. 6 first round picks in four years, a bunch of cost controlled players, and tons of cap room.
In that case I think we should draft BPA instead of drafting for need.
You can’t seriously chide a Knicks fan for being terrified of what we may do with cap space. The last time we had cap space we signed Tim Hardaway and Ron Baker to terrible contracts. The time before that we signed Courtney Lee, Lance Thomas, and Joakim Noah to terrible contracts.
Do I have to keep going? I only have 1,497 characters left. Not sure that will get me through 2008.
Always BPA. But RJ Barrett and Cam Reddish are not going to be BPA at 4, they’re just projected to go there. Most of these lottery picks have screaming red flags.
A guy with a .626 TS% looks more like the BPA than all those guards who can’t shoot. I was curious if anyone watched him could shed some light as to why he’s not getting more love.
I mean, you can’t put that Perry though. I think its a very good sign our front office cleared just about all of those bad contracts which were signed before he came along.
Keldon is ranked all over the place. It’s not a science, some sites have Morant ahead of mt Zion . I wouldn’t pick him first but what do I know
The Knicks should be trying to get back their 2nd round pick from Philly for DeAndre Jordan, and I’d probably keep Wes Matthews as he’s a mostly harmless player in terms of the tank, but would be a nice high volume 3 point shooter to put next to some high volume scorers.
I don’t want the Knicks to go get two max players. I’d much rather, if we’re going to sign KD, that we go after a bunch of low cost assets like Bojan Bogdanovic and Nerlens Noel. I’d feel better about the team’s future if instead of Irving and Durant, we did something like Durant, Noel, Bojan Bogdanovic, and Ricky Rubio while retaining Vonleh and Wes Matthews. I don’t think we’d get one max guy without another signing, but I just don’t agree with the plan of surrounding two All-NBA players with the depth of the 2014 Miami Heat.
BK has our second round pick.
And I don’t think Jordan has any more trade value than Kanter. He’s probably going to be great for the tank.
of the teams within 2 games of the playoffs, here who has enough in expiring contracts they might trade for Matthews ($18.6) or DAJ ($22.9):
Sacramento: Koufos ($8.7), Randolph ($11.6), McLemore ($5.5)
Lakers: Caldwell-Pope ($12), Rondo ($9), Stephenson ($4.4), Beasley ($3.5)
Clips: Gortat ($13.5), Boban ($7), Teodosic ($6.3), Beverley ($5), Scott ($4.3), Mbah a Moute ($4.3)
Jazz: Rubio ($15), Sefolosha ($5.3), Udoh ($3.4)
Nets: Crabbe ($18.5), Carroll ($15.4), Dudley ($9.5), Davis ($4.4)
Pacers: Evans ($12.4), Joseph ($7.9), KOQ ($4.4)
Sixers: Chandler ($12.8), Muscala ($5), Patton ($2.7), Korkmaz ($1.7)
Glass half full – Now we get to have Frank AND Dennis Smith Jr.
At the time it was reportedly hard to make their minds up between the two, now it doesn’t matter!
NBA Draft Net has Keldon Johnson as the #5 pick. Never heard of him either.