The Dallas Mavericks have agreed to a trade with the New York Knicks for All-Star forward Kristaps Porzingis, league sources told ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski on Thursday.
The trade also includes the Knicks sending Courtney Lee and Tim Hardaway Jr. to the Mavericks in return for Wesley Matthews, Dennis Smith Jr. and DeAndre Jordan, league sources told Wojnarowski. The deal may also include draft assets, sources said.
The Mavs are working to acquire a first-round pick to include in the deal, sources told ESPN’s Tim MacMahon. They owe their own protected first-rounder to the Atlanta Hawks as part of the draft-night trade to acquire Luka Doncic.
Jordan and Matthews both have expiring contracts.
Somehow, the Knicks will continue their insane streak of not resigning any rookie that they have drafted since Charlie Ward. We all know that Frank will be next in that little streak, right?
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
EDITED TO ADD: While I am not a fan of the trade, the Knicks did also get two future first round picks from the Mavericks in the deal. It appears that it will be an unprotected 2021 pick and a 1-10 protected 2023 pick.
320 replies on “ESPN.com: Dallas Mavericks agree to trade with New York Knicks for Kristaps Porzingis”
I love you guys, but enough.
Why would you even want the cap space though? Without KP the team is so bad even signing KD wouldn’t make us a contender. Why not just keep Lee and THJ, trading KP for as many picks as you can get?
It either better be a lottery pick we’re getting, or there’s already a verbal agreement with two max FAs.
Who is ready for the Boogie/Kemba era?
Shams saying KP will tell Dallas he’s going to sign the QO. Does that scupper the deal?!
Why would it Dallas isn’t giving up anything
KP wanting the QO is fascinating. I really don’t know where he is going with that.
Fuck the New York Dolans. Let’s all choose another team and stay together.
We should win this trade by default since KP is clearly the dumbest player in the league.
Well, they now have the room to re-sign Vonleh and Mudiay.
They don’t need Mudiay now, they have Dennis.
@5 – excellent point.
I hate you DRed, I forgot about Boogie. It’s the most logical conclusion.
Out Melo, in Small Melo (THJ).
Out Small Melo, in Big Melo.
Can’t wait to see the DSJ / French Prince backcourt! It’s about to get LIT.
DSJ fits so badly with this team. Try to imagine a DSJ-Trier backcourt and not to vomit.
Frank/DSJr will lead us to the promised land.
I said a long time ago here that KP was not going to stay with the knicks. The chorus said I was nuts – he’s going for the max deal.
We’re probably going to trade frank to get the 1m guarantee on lance’s contract off our books…
You really do have to give Steve Mills credit for his blame game. Leaking KP being disgruntled right before they trade him is kind of genius. If Mills has one true great skill, it’s covering his own ass.
You kid, but Phil once traded a second rounder (which would be this year’s second rounder, which is currently set to be the first pick of the second round) to clear $3 million that was expiring!
Fiz is pissed off for spending all that money to go to Lithuania
At least we finally have a player in the Slam Dunk Competition! Has there been anyone since Nate Rob?
That’s too good, make it Butler/D’Angelo Russell
Mavs want to pair KP with Doncic
Knicks want to pair Knox with DSJr
at least THJr is off the books
@20 – why do you think I’m joking? An hour ago I posted that this was going to go badly and within an hour it was worse than I could have imagined. Literally nothing would surprise me now.
i need a hug.
WTF kind of deal is this? We’re using KP to dump salary?!?! This is fucking insane!!!
What the fuck??
Even if you want to trade KP, how can you not take more time to get other offers. Trade deadline is a week away.
1. We all want to get rid of THJ’s and Lee’s contracts
2. We spend months explaining why KP is not worth the max and that maybe we’re better trading him sooner than later
3. Many people wanted DSJ instead of Frank
Beware your wishes KBloggers… 🙂
I imagine that the moment the other 29 teams find out the Knicks are about to wheel and deal is like when a radio show has a really good prize for a call-in contest. Every team is sprinting to their phones hoping that they’re the ones who get through.
I’m still waiting on the pick details before reacting, but I’m pretty surprised at how overwhelmingly negative it is here.
So many of us have said that trading KP before the extension was preferable to giving him 5/$156M after 3 mediocre years and one injured year. I have to admit it’s painful because it looked like KP had a chance at being our best player since Ewing, but his development stalled and then he tore his ACL. If you take the win curve seriously, this could very well wind up being the correct move.
It’s been, what, three hours since the meeting?? I went to the dentist a few hours ago and didn’t even know this was brewing. They panic traded before I even got home.
We don’t have to read the tea leaves any more. We officially know that the Mills/Perry era is on par w layden, Isaiah, Phil
my nose literally started bleeding from the knicks trade lmao
Trading KP is fine. Trading KP as a sweetener to dump Lee and THJ is not so fine.
It’s not about the decision to deal him, which is definitely defensible. It’s about the fact that they used the deal to clear space rather than get assets. That means you’re 100% all-in on the idea that you’re getting something fantastic with that space this summer, otherwise you effectively gave away a huge chunk of his value. If they sign Durant and Kawhi this summer we’ll all be eating our words, but for now this is a tremendous risk. Because if you just use that space in a mediocre fashion you’re adding on to what is currently like a 15-win level core.
to be fair, it’s more like an 18-win core
I agree. I think this board should consider rebranding itself as a non-team-affiliated statistically-leaning basketball/music/Deadwood forum for erstwhile Knicks fans.
I can’t wait for next year’s Kyrie, Frank, KD, Zion, MitchRob starting lineup.
Aren’t they getting DSJ and possibly 2 first round picks out of it?
It is kind of funny that they finally kind of figure out win curve just when the lottery odds flatten out.
This can’t possibly be what actually happened right? I mean we joke but they aren’t seriously stupid enough to just trade him to whoever gets them on the phone first following the meeting, right?
The more logical explanation (which, Dolan’s razor, obviously does not imply is what happened here) is they were seriously considering trading him and had already solicited offers all over the place, called a meeting to see if things could be patched up/take the temperature, and when they decided to trade him after the meeting they leaked that he “implied that he wanted to be traded” to make him seem like the bad guy and went with the offer they’d already settled on. The other possibility is just too absurd even for the Knicks.
James White sad a few years ago.
Oh yeah, they totally had this planned for a while and just leaked the news to put the blame on KP. Mills is good at at least one thing, blaming others.
Wait so after all that and Enes is still on the team?
If they used KP mostly as sweetener, that’s fucking moronic. That’s why I’m waiting on the pick details.
There’s zero chance a deal this huge came together in the 25 minutes between the initial Woj tweet and the trade news breaking. They’ve clearly been shopping him for a while and concluded this was the best return. I guess they could’ve waited some more but it’s impossible to say what the value of that would’ve been.
you figure if they were shopping him, there’d be rumors. so it’s obvious they did not do their due diligence which is disturbing.
alternatively, in a scenario where the trade is drawn out, i think there’s a chance that KP would try to manipulate the process, being that he and his management team are such self-styled super-smart wheeler-dealers. blindsiding him to avoid that is perhaps a cogent argument for acting quickly.
IF he told the Knicks he’s taking the QO, that changes things in a meaningful way. there hasn’t been this situation before so you can’t really say what fair value would be. they had a deal that allows them to get out from under a couple contracts, including KP’s potential deal, in exchange for one season of unknown quantity KP.
we should have a better idea in 48 hours but for now, i’m just a little uneasy. certainly this can get much worse.
Wut da fuck? Did we just trade KP for cap space? Couldn’t we get a Lonzo Ball or some asset in return? You’ve got to be kidding me.
The current reports are that they’ve been working on this for a few days.
I am really sad about this.
KP never had a full season of greatness, but he had flashes.
About 2 years ago, I lost a very good friend very young to cancer. He and I went to a lot of Knicks games, starting in the mid-1980s. When he was fighting his disease, I could make him smile by talking about the bad old days of watching and listening to Hubie Brown cuss out the team in a half-empty MSG. I could also make him smile by talking about “Porzinigis” as our hope for the future. I would paint a picture of my friend beating cancer and the two of us watching Porzingis lead the Knicks back to the promised land.
Well, it was not to be. My friend passed. In the last two years, whenever I thought about Porzingis, I thought about my friend. I thought about the possibility that Porzingis really would lead the team back to the promised land, and how I would toast my friend on that day.
Now, I’m just sad all over again.
Seems strange that we haven’t heard what the draft pick coming from Dallas is…?
Re the leak to Woj today- could have been the Knicks but also could’ve been KP’s camp leaking it to look like he was the guy driving it. As opposed to the guy who was sent packing because the team wasn’t sold on a max contract for him.
Man a Luka/KP combo is potentially sooooo tasty to build around too. Why is it never us who gets to have nice things?
We’ve been hoping for KP to get some tips from Dirk for awhile, so that came true, at least!
Did we manage to get any picks?
This reminds me of when Washington traded Chris Webber for Mitch Richmond.
Also, this might very well pay off and Zion, KD and Kyrie are all Knicks next season and that’d be great. However, it is important to note that whether that happens or not, this clearly wasn’t the “patient” play. In other words, Mills is as full of shit as always.
@50 Thanks for sharing Ephus. Even though we sometimes take a calculated view around here, it’s easy to sometimes lose sight of what teams and players mean to fans. Sure sometimes sports might not seem important in the grand scheme, but for many of us it’s an escape from heavier things in life.
Hopefully we land Zion and you can start to feel better about the promised land.
Thankfully, that was a lot dumber than this. That’s…something?
Shams says it’s two future 1sts. That isn’t bad depending on the protections.
Two first round picks is very good. Now can we flip Deandre for something?
Two firsts, but they’ll be from a team that has Porzingis and Doncic. (And Timmy, who may be able to finally achieve his proper destiny as a sixth man.)
Two firsts is better than one first! That’s something!
I am not so convinced this means as much in the WC to be honest.
Well, well, well. Want to know what the protection is on those 2 firsts, but it certainly looks like we at least got a lot of total value here. I still don’t like taking part of that value in the form of the dumping of contracts (probably worth at least another full first rounder) but DSJ, two firsts, and moving off all that money is a lot to get for KP in a vacuum.
We’ve got to be able to get something for Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, no?
Look on the bright side…MR has a new ft shooting coach..
I’m actually happy
2021 and 2023?
We still need many more details but it’s looking like you can’t coherently want the Knicks to abide by the win curve and also be against this trade.
Dallas sure is gambling a lot on KP coming and being ready to stay healthy under what will most probably be a very lucrative contract.
I’d like to think so, but I believe the worry there is that every team will know that the Knicks will buy them out soon, so why give up anything for them when they’ll be free agents in a week?
I’m totally down with this. There was NO WAY KP was going to up the requisite stats to justify a 4 or 5 year max. And if they wind up with 1 or more firsts on top of that…NICE! Especially if they’re in the lottery.
There’s the possibility of moving DJ or WM for assets, like cap space for next season.
My least favorite part is getting DSJ. But I’ll give him a chance to win me over.
Now lets just use Dennis Smith to parlay a 3 way deal with the Lakers and Pelicans for Lonzo Ball. I am down.
This trade is all about trying to sign two max free agents this offseason. That might work, but I don’t think it says anything about the win curve.
In the end we’re not gonna give a max contract to a guy who tore his knee after his groundbreaking .099 WS/48 season and we got back an okay point guard prospect to go along with two max salary slots this summer AND two future first round draft picks.
My heart hates it, but this is almost the kind of move Sam Hinkie would have made.
in a wait-for-buyout scenario, don’t those teams have to bank on being the only team interested in either?
So the Lakers, Rockets or Raptors don’t get them?
One of the firsts better be this year if it lands in the top 5.
The only teams who would be interested in adding guys like Matthews and Jordan will be the same teams that think they’ll be able to sign them as free agents.
~11% chance Dallas has a pick to trade this year (based on current standings…).
Imagine if after all this they tank hard and land Zion with an 8% chance and we didn’t acquire the rights to that pick.p
It’s tricky with the Stepien rule, though, right? Because they’ll owe the Hawks their first rounder next year also top five protected if it doesn’t convey this year.
I agree with you that this is probably what it came down to for this group, but when you evaluate the trade purely on its own merits it’s a trade you would think, say, Sam Hinkie would make.
Yes, they will probably do some incredibly stupid shit with the money but it’s not fair to take that into account…yet.
I disagree because the trade specifically built dumping Lee and THJ’s contract into it. Hinkie would take on contracts like THJ and Lee to get assets, not treat the dumping of their salary as the asset, like here.
There’s real potential to parlay all of this trade capital into some picks on top of the two first rounders we just added. Even if we don’t sign anyone major in FA, you can’t deny this sets the team up for a proper rebuild.
You can get swap rights. It increases our chances of Zion. That should have been our number one priority.
Yeah, that’s fair. That definitely should be built into the trade. Good call.
If Dallas can acquire another pick this year – which apparently they were at least trying to do – they can give us their pick 1-5 this year and keep the other one. That would suddenly add a fair chunk of value with the flattened odds.
If that is built in, I will at least be mildly impressed. I would give up a lot for an extra 5% chance at Zion.
This is true, but who’s to say the Mavs were willing to give up more assets if not for the salary dump? Two firsts is pretty hefty as is, especially for a team with one good (well, amazing) young player right now. It’s quite possible that three firsts was a no, but two and the salary dumps was fine.
I guess we could’ve potentially taken on Barnes for extra assets, but again, it’s impossible to say. They may (stupidly) view him as part of their core going forward. Also, if the Knicks really do have good reason to believe they could get two elite players this summer it would be silly to completely disregard that out of hand.
We’ll have to wait-and-see.
Ja Morant + Zion would be pretty nice. But from the sound of it all of these are post 2019 picks.
The Charlie Ward streak of Knick rookie extensions lives on for another year!
Oh, it could totally work out by getting the two max guys. Just saying that this isn’t a rebuilding trade. This is a “we are going to sign two max free agents this offseason” deal.
I can’t believe they did this to you on your name day.
if nothing else, the news about the picks breaks the long-lasting Knick tradition that all additional trade information after the initial report is increasingly catastrophic
I am going to miss KP, I own his jersey. I’ve been concerned about his skirmishes with management throughout his tenure. I certainly don’t believe he earned a max contract yet, and am pretty sure he would have held out for the max. Rumors swirled that KP was disappointed the Knicks were maneuvering to sign free agents with their cap money before extending him. For KP not to understand they get more with that tactic signals he is not a team player. I’m disappointed they gave up on him, but I understand the logic. Can’t wait for the stories of Dennis Smith terrorizing Frank during practice.
But my point is even if that doesn’t happen, the trade still seems defensible from a rebuilding perspective. Without the two firsts I would be apoplectic, but it’s a unique trade in that it actually serves both purposes well.
I was just thinking that. That is a nice change of pace.
Idk, if we can flip DeAndre for a 1st, that means it’s 3 firsts and DSJ, I think alone that’s a decent haul for a broken KP, not even accounting for the expirings…
wes and deandre make a shit ton. dealing htem will be rough. lucky to get a 2nd, is my guess.
I’m still trying to figure out WTF to think about all this…
But you don’t do this trade to not spend that money this offseason, right? So that money’s getting spent no matter if it is on KD and Kyrie or Kemba and, like, Cousins. Otherwise, don’t get me wrong, I totally see your point and I’m totally fine with the idea of following the win curve by trading KP now for future assets. I just don’t think that this is that.
not that i care, but……..what is dallas doing? they have no $$. they traded their pick. they basically have KP, Doncic and Harrison barnes next year. I believe even if KP takes the qualifying, thanks to timmy and lee, they have no $$.
This is a good take.
FWIW I have no qualms with trading him. What makes me furious is that they chose cap space over assets, as if Kevin Durant and Kawhi Leonard are suddenly going to sign here bc we have enough space.
And also this trade implies that they like Dennis smith Jr. That upsets me a lot, too.
You’re telling Brooklyn wouldn’t have done KP for Allen and two picks? I would have taken that all day and been happy, even with MitchGod.
Come on, guys. You all know that the most likely outcome of this trade is that they miss out on the stars next summer, offer max contracts to non-stars, then end up using their newly-acquired picks (or players drafted with those picks) to dump the overpaid non-stars.
A first for Jordan might be a stretch given he is an expiring. Really only worth that to a contender, so it would be a very late 1st. I would be content on moving Matthews and Jordan for a handful of 2nd’s tbh.
The deal looks way better with the 2 firsts. To me the deal feels like something in the middle of clearing cap space and rebuilding. The picks (pending further details) somewhat keep the rebuild on track taking into account we are keeping our own picks for the near future.
I hear what you’re saying re:picks over cap space (which is an asset, too), but you can’t trade KP to Brooklyn. James Dolan wouldn’t sign off on that.
Hmmm….a gaggle of #1 picks…what is the NO area code????
I sincerely doubt Deandre is moveable at all. In part because the days where every contender thought “we need a little more big man depth for the playoffs” are well and truly over. Now every playoff team thinks they need one more versatile wing who can shoot. I think contenders with that much moveable expiring money on their books will have a lot more interesting options. Matthews I think we should be able to get something for, although I doubt a first.
Normally I’d agree, but like I said to BC the asset package seems pretty hefty as is. It’s a little hard to believe they could’ve gotten more, whether they dumped the contracts or not.
DSJ is a total flyer in this trade. I’m on the record as thinking there’s some intrigue in there but it really doesn’t matter at all. Getting anything from him would be a bonus as far as I’m concerned. The picks are what matter.
I do not think that Sean Marks would do that.
I do like that DSJ being here has to make Mudiay super expendable, right?
Trade is officially official. Even the official press release doesn’t have the details on first rounders. I’d really like to know the nitty gritty there.
Really, the final chapter in this trade won’t be written until the offseason. If we sign KD or Kawhi, plus either Kyrie, Butler, or Klay, then it will have been worth it. If it’s 2010 all over again and we max out Kemba and Tobias, it will not have been worth it.
If the Knicks were smart and committed to a rebuild they could use DeAndre or Wes to take on a bad contract for pick(s), but you know
I get the cap room but…wow…
You don’t make that move unless stars have committed to your team behind closed doors. You don’t do that and “hope” stars come to play for NY. This could go horribly wrong at the bounce of a ping pong ball
FWIW, Stephen A is all worked up
As far as I’m concerned, I’d swap this year’s 3 major expirings (DJ, WN, Enes) for those expiring next year plus assets. This was never an optimal summer for free agency anyway. Focus on the kids, picks and 2020 summer free agency.
It seems like KP is serious about at least considering the QO this summer. That would be insanely stupid and I hope for his own sake he doesn’t wind up taking it, but the fact that he’s even thinking about it should be a factor in evaluating this trade.
That’s super weird.
man, folks are clowning us hard – which is nothing new…again – i don’t think we did that terrible…
let’s all guess at dallas’ win total next year – maybe 42???
What I love about this place is that 9 times out of 10, the room is more pessimistic about the team than I am, and today when I’m filled with despair, there are some plausible arguments being made for this trade not being the total tire fire I thought it was. 🙂
It had not occurred to me that DSJ surely meant the end of Mudiay’s tenure here after this season, if not sooner. (As it is, I’m so glad to never have to watch Trey Burke put on a Knicks uniform.) A Smith/Frank backcourt is kind of intriguing, once Frank is healthy. And there’s now a non-zero chance of keeping Vonleh even if we do sign some free agents.
Of course, I’m assuming those free agents will be the kind “stars” we usually bring in here, and not one or more of KD, Kawhi or Kyrie.
Here’s my thoughts as I posted on my FB:
As we speak, my fiancee the Lakers’ fan is trolling me hard.
Shams then had KP saying he would consider all of his options. So I imagine he’ll end up taking the max extension from Dallas when all is said and done. But yes, that he is even considering the QO instead of just taking the max is insane.
That escalated quickly….
If we are getting two firsts, I feel better about it. Although I don’t really know how I feel about it.
I just can’t believe we traded for Smith Jr
True story, I was literally contemplating texting my Bulls fan friends to argue the Bulls were more dysfunctional than the Knicks. Too bad I didn’t, it would have been a great laugh!
Why not take all those picks and some youth and take a swing for AD now and lock up the first star?
There are A LOT of 2020 expiring contracts to trade our 2019 expiring contracts for additional assets.
Great trade already by Scott Perry, but if he’s able to do this, he’d be 3D Chessing half the league. As well as the lolknicks sukkas.
Two firsts in, what, 2021 and 2023?
I saw that. He thinks cap space = Durant and Kyrie, but Brian Cronin’s right. Kemba and Cousins is much more likely.
How in the fuck is the trade official and yet we don’t know what the picks are?
i have a feeling that dallas and their fans feel like they really came up on this deal – but, i don’t think so…
my favorite comment of the day 🙂
I think it’s all posturing. He’s trying to ensure he gets a max offer. Real question: is KP a big asset on a max contract? Because if not, this may be a good move?
Depends on the details of the picks, but them and DSJ for a guy who is (maybe) about to no longer be an asset could be good. Especially if Deandre and Mathews can be flipped for something else, and especially especially if the cap space can be rented out for more picks and/or used on good free agents.
2023 protected 1-10
2021 unprotected! 2023 is 1-10. We somehow still need to find out what happens if it doesn’t convey.
According to a writer for The Athletic:
“The two first-round picks the New York Knicks will receive from the Dallas Mavericks in the Kristaps Porzingis trade will be in 2021 and 2023, The Athletic has learned. Both picks are protected.”
but there has to be some clause that pushes the picks if Dallas gets 1-5 because then they can’t trade 2021
Because we’re Knicks fans…. Why could we even get a trade thing right. Lol
With the two 1st round picks, I feel less terrible about the trade, but it probably sets the Knicks rebuild BACK a couple of years UNLESS they can use the cap space to land one or two stars.
The idea in any rebuild is to get three stars.
We had one, were looking to add one in free agency, and hoping to draft one this year.
Now we have zero, but we have cap space for two max contracts, an extra two 1st round picks for trades, and can still hope to add one in the draft.
The risk is they don’t land one, let alone two, stars in free agency. That’s a major risk considering we are so horrible without KP. I think it’s going to be two stars or bust. If we bust, we are set back for years trying to replace KP. The cap space loses a lot of value because Lee would have been an expiring and come off after next year anyway. The two picks could have some trade value, but given that Dallas in now 2/3rds the way through their rebuild (Doncic/KP combo), they are likely to be pretty darn good by the time those picks come up (even when the age limit changes) .
The Knicks are basically “all in” on this free agency. If they don’t get two stars, they have set the rebuild back years. By the time we find a replacement for KP and develop him to go along with whoever we draft this year, it will be years.
It’s free agency or bust.
We’ve been here before a few times. Let’s hope the result is different this time.
Protected picks kinda suck.
Dang, they seriously fined Davis $50,000 for the trade demand? For serious?
Why is detailed info on this so difficult to communicate? It has to be finalized if the league has signed off, right?
I feel much better about the trade now. Nice haul..great haul considering your dumping unsavory contracts in the process. But MAN! That Doncic/KP 2 man game is gonna be nutso!
Yeah, I have no idea. It’s bizarre how difficult it is to find these details.
2021 is speculated to be when the one-and-done rule goes away too right? If so, that draft will be loaded, as it will have the high school graduating classes of 2020 and 2021 in it.
I suppose it’s a defensible trade in a vacuum, but the whole process that brought us to this point is just so knicksy
There is no superstar in this league with a -0.5 OBPM. And he hasn’t played basketball in a year. With no timetable for return. Porzingis. Is. Not. Yet. A. Superstar. Period.
I don’t love the haul unless it yields a top-5 pick at some point (or the elusive double FA max superstar signing), but if it means not giving $156M to Porzingis, I’m cool with it.
Shams on NBA TV just said that they worked on trading KP in the last 2-3 days,
they offered him to NO as the headliner for AD but the Pels were scared he would go QO and said no.
Really this trade could be judged only at the end of july, after the dust from draft and free agency settles.
Right now we traded our “star” for DSJ (I hope this make Mudiay “less resignable”), around 44 Mil in cap space this summer (Lee and THJ contracts plus KP 17 MIl cap hold minus DSJ 4,5 Mil) and 2 first rounders.
Marks at ESPN estimate our cap space this summer to be over 74 Mil, if used properly this could end up being one of the greatest Knicks trade ever (and many “professional pundits” are saying that there are “under the table” guarantees from 2 top free agents, but I’m not buying it for now) or could be a disaster, or could be a “total rebuild” one. We’ll see.
I would be thrilled if they are giving the Knicks this year’s contingent 1-5. I doubt that’s the case but it would warm the cockles on this cold January afternoon.
Hm maybe Perry really is trying a long-term rebuild through the draft. Too bad his 1st round draft pick this year looks like hot garbage.
I think that the key for Dallas is that this trade means that they are going to tank the rest of this season so that they improve their chances of getting a top five pick and fucking Atlanta over. So they really needed to keep that chance alive.
Of course all this happens while I’m driving fucking home from rural PA so I can’t do much. Getting two future 1RP, depending on the protections, moves this trade from disaster to potentially good. But it really feels like the main purpose of this trade is to go all-in this Summer on 2 max players. Also, there’s no way we’re flipping DJ or Wes to another team for additional assets; we’d almost certainly have to take salary back that eats into our cap space next year and we’re obviously not going to do that.
In my head Adam Silver is looming over a podium in a dingy press room with a tiny gavel in his hand, frantically smiling as he auctions off tidbits of trade info. “Two backscratches, do I hear three? Three going once, three going twice, SOLD to the powerful hands of Woj for two backscratches. Next up, protections or not on the second pick! Let’s start at one foot rub. Do I hear one foot rub?”
Looks like Trey Burke is going to Dallas also.
I wouldn’t want to flip DSJ. He’s on a rookie contract. Why not see if he can develop into a good player?
Wes and Deandre might not be able to get us anything but maybe they can. If not and if we can’t get anything for Kanter either…I would cut Wes and Kanter and let Deandre mentor Mitchell for the rest of the season. Deandre alone ain’t fucking up our tank.
Plus, Frank played horrible with Burke and now he’s gone. Burke and Hardaway gone means more minutes for Frank at both the one and the two spot.
Just trying to be a silver linings guy!
I’d hold on to Jordan, too, just as a fuck you to the teams who refuse to give the Knicks anything for him because they assume that the Knicks will cut him.
Yeah they’re only 3 wins away from having a 37% chance at a top 4 pick and a 9% chance at Zion. And now they’re going to tank hard. We needed *that* pick, and that’s yet another part of this trade that makes me angry.
The only thing I’m happy about today is that we have a O% chance of maxing Porzingis, and Mudiay is less likely to be back.
Porzingis, btw, is officially the first player in NBA history to pull off leveraging the “I’ll sign the QO and bolt” bluff to force a trade to his preferred team. Helps to play for a sucker.
i kind of sort of like the trade… of course it really all depends on what happens in FA but it’s a very good year to have cap space… .
still…. i was never a big fan of putting all your marbles in FA…. if we can get 2 out the following four…. kyrie, kd, ad or kawhi…. then this starts looking like a really good deal…. however… there’s really not much of a team outside of whoever signs which means it’s gonna be hard to convince a pair to come here… outside of mrob/smith it’s pretty bare… and no knox does not count….
smith is gonna be a player…. i’m convinced he’ll be a solid rotation piece with a chance to be better…. i was hoping for a straight frank for smith trade but it’s nice to get him in the deal… most won’t agree but give it a year… he’s in the middle of figuring things out and has a chance to pay huge dividends…
i have been totally onboard to trade kp… big men his size with lower body injuries are bad news…. and his perceived value was always bigger than his actual value…. i would’ve been actively shopping him if he was planning to take the QO also although i think there was a better return out there… no way to know tho…
the picks are nice… and that put me on board with the trade… i have zero confidence this knicks FO will do much with it… but they will need as many picks as they can get…
Pelton is with me.
I’m gonna troll the mav’s message board to get their opinion on the deal, then i’m gonna drop some hai koooooo on those texans.
I’m going in as…….RenaldoZIPCODE
So just to be clear, we now want Dallas to win as many games as possible right?
Seems to both directly help us (as if the ATL pick doesn’t convey I imagine our first rounders would get bumped to 2022 and 2024?) and slightly indirectly help us (as Dallas getting a worse pick means on average their future teams will be slightly worse, making our picks from them better).
You are obviously very bright, but I am going to suggest something.
PLEASE, get past looking at models that do not measure individual defense or allow for young players to develop.
Built into every single draft and trade is the probability of that player getting better or worse and by how much (which is the correct thing to do).
Built into any evaluation of KP is that he’s a plus defender that stretches the floor (neither of which are captured by models that quite frankly often suck ass at measuring player value). Beyond that, it’s obvious he has not been used properly and was considered a project coming in because he’s so darn weak. No one thought he’d be good for years. Admittedly, offsetting that is the injury risk which is a HUGE factor. It’s one that Phil considered a couple of years ago.
But let’s get past that. If you think I’m idiot that doesn’t understand what he’s talking about so be it. I don’t really care. Let me take another tact to convince you.
There is a reason when the rumor first came out the teams said to be interested were Toronto, San Antonio, Miami, the Clippers, and the Mavericks. You know what they have in common? They have elite talent and value measuring managements. In other words, they don’t look at WS, BPM and other catch all models that are incomplete and fail badly in many cases. They know what they are doing. They know KP is a lot better than those models say and still has upside.
We’ve obviously been obsessing over the Knicks side of this here, but wow did the Mavs make a big bet on KP. We’ve been arguing back and forth here about whether it was a good idea to give him the max when push came to shove and the Mavs just gave us two first rounders, DSJ and took all our bad money for the right to give him that deal (and they have very little leverage not to just give him whatever he wants at this point). They’re obviously picturing him and Luka as the 1-2 punch for a decade plus but man they better be right about him given that cost. I like his chances of starting to realize the offensive potential under Carlisle but man the injury risk alone is terrifying at that price.
Yes, they fined AD, they applied the CBA that explicitly forbid to ask publicly for a trade.
This league is running at full speed to a lockout when the CBA expires.
I’m usually very pro players (and pro unions) but this wave of trade request is becoming a problem (if only because it lower team’s leverage in trades).
Small and medium markets teams are increasingly tired by this thing and If nothing changes will act accordingly.
BTW I don’t want to buyout DJ and Matthews, fuck the other teams! Do they want them? Give me something and pay them yourself!
Didn’t Lebron say he was a DSJ fan? I’d be on the phone with Magic for a trade with LA.
We need to make the big trade RIGHT NOW:
James Dolan + $10M in cash in exchange for a large bag of Vomit.
Someone will take that trade, right? Pretty please?
My first reaction to all this was sadness. KP was an exciting pick, seemed like a good guy, and brought some hope. However, skipping on the exit interview now turns out to have been the first sign of a serious “diva” here, with perhaps his brother whispering in his ear.
If Mudiay and DSJ play together, who eats the vaseline (I’m ripping off myself for this comment made awhile back)? Hey, we have both DSJ and Frank.
If nothing else major happens before the deadline, I hope we see DSJ and Frank play together a lot. Mudiay should be dealt, now, one would think. Trier off the bench.
Was out to a business lunch with a client when this story blew and kept watching the monitor tuned to ESPN in the background behind my client. Didn’t listen to a fucking word he said and just focused in disbelief at the monitor. WTF??!? Mavs might be my new favorite team with Doncic and KP, that should be very entertaining.
Cap space, the mythical road to signing max free agents. I’m sure those all stars are lining up to play with Knox, Frank, Mitch, and Kornet. Yee haa this team, the ownership, and it’s front office are such a clusterfuck. I am a moron for being a fan for 40+ years.
Glad to see Knickerblogger is blowing up and didn’t disappoint – carry on Knick fans – this journey continues
Ok….my findings from the mavs message board.
First of all, RenaldoZIPCODE was taken. I went in as NomeansnoZIPCODE.
to sum it up, mavs fans are pretty pumped. One dude is psyched about Burke. One guy thinks THJ will be solid with Luka feeding him. Another dude thinks we are going to sign Kyrie and then Dennis smith is right back where he is now. they all want out of Barnes. they seem to suggest KP is a very good basketball player.
Any chance if the team cannot sign KD that they will rent out all this cap space and get massive picks back? Please god do not sign Boogie. Please.
Man, Dallas should get killed in tonight’s game. Traded guys gone, and Luka out…
Yo echo a previous comment, this trade *does* get better as more news comes out.
For instance, New Orleans flatly rejected Porzingis for AD. Maybe they want picks. Smith and a top 5 pick this year and multiple future picks is a nice haul.
The unprotected 2021 pick is nice. It’s not like the Mavs built a super team. Luka is great but they’re going to have $60mm committed to Hardaway and Porzingis in 2020-21, how good can they be?
I can at least give myself until this summer to see what happens. My initial reaction assumes us wasting money on Kemba and Cousins.
Well, I would hope that OBPM does not measure individual defense.
Oh yeah, I am not thrilled with the trade on their end, either.
I would imagine that this deal also involves the Mavericks removing some protections on the Hawks pick. Right now, the latest it can convey is 2023 (The pick is protected for selections 1-5 in 2019, 1-5 in 2020, 1-3 in 2021, 1-3 in 2022 and unprotected in 2023). They have to move that up to 2021, right? To make sure both Knick picks convey by 2025 (which is the limit for how far in advance you can trade picks).
If KP does not come back as the same player or does not develop much then we fleeced ’em.
Well, that sucks if true. That can’t be true, though, right? Not even LOLKnicks would be that dumb, right?
Something tells me those trade talks with Dallas regarding Ntilikina pivoted to KP once the latter’s sitdown with Knicks brass went to shit.
Speculation here is that this trade was all about KD.
the unprotected pick be not in lottery. dallas could be good in those year. hope they get the top 5 for this year
My guess is these guys have been iffy on KP for awhile. Mills was GM when KP skipped out on the exit interview. There was the passive-aggressive posting of the picture of KP running. Rumors of partying with Noah. Etc. Mills has been around for all of this.
Some of the press is running with the KP asked to be traded story.
I did a quick check of every team’s roster and found only three that would have both the interest and the expirings to make a legal trade for DeAndre: Clips, Lakers, Kings. Perry should work those teams hard to make something happen. We don’t need another center here, especially one that’s good enough to win us a couple games.
Matthews should be easier to move. Every team could use 2-way wings.
If I were the FO and was just exploring options, I probably wouldn’t be talking to any teams that I knew had a leaky front office. Just in case it all worked out with KP.
Seems odd Kanter is quoted making outrageous and cryptic comments about FA already agreeing to come to ny and then bam! KP is moved as quick as you can pronounce his name.
A lot is happening behind closed doors we don’t know about.
I have to admit respecting this move by the front office from the one aspect that they weren’t going to allow themselves being dictated to by a middling “superstar” type who will hold their franchise hostage with the leverage of a max contract he wasn’t worth. Maybe these guys did learn their lesson with Melo and didn’t want to repeat that same circus with a 7’3 player coming off major reconstructive knee surgery.
I mean I think it likely is true to at least some extent because if he was seriously being shopped widely around the league I have to think it would have leaked at least a little bit. I just don’t think you can make a guy really widely available in this day and age without anybody saying anything and even the most plugged in guys didn’t seem to catch wind of anything until the deal was practically done. So I do think it’s fair to say that the group of teams they were shopping him to must have been at least somewhat limited. Now that’s not necessarily a problem because not every team has what you’re looking for but I really, really hope they did their due diligence here.
“Well, that sucks if true. That can’t be true, though, right? Not even LOLKnicks would be that dumb, right?”
Dude I think Mark Cuban got to NY a day ahead of the game and this is all started then.
that’s both funny and sad at the same time – man, do the new york knicks got a serious hold on all of our lives 🙂
today is a very good day…i’m soooooo happy not to see timmy running out there anymore…
we set ourselves up for a big free agency period this summer…we have any excellent chance at a top 5 pick at this year’s draft…we have a decent prospect at point guard (not named mud or frank)…
and, most importantly – we don’t have to bet on a 7’3″ ball player who tore his acl and hasn’t played in a year…hmmmm, how long before the other knee goes out…
i hope he stays healthy – no, not really – cuz, another injury and those future firsts are gonna be SWEET!!!
Any chance of using a future 1st to trade up for Zion if we inevitably draft later?
The important thing to remember is that Strat turned out to be right about the Knicks getting a first rounder back for Courtney Lee. 😉
Is this true? I can’t believe it is.
Here’s a possible scenario that played out behind closed doors btw KP and Knicks Management
KP: I want to play this year
KM: No, you’ll ruin our odds of picking Zion
KP: Not Happy
He doesn’t even have to develop! They just have to use him better
Wait a second.
All year many of us have thought giving Porzingis a max would be a terrible mistake.
Dallas just gave up Dennis Smith and two first round picks…. and took on Courtney Lee’s unmovable contract… AND took on what we all thought was the biggest albatross in the league…. all for the opportunity to give Porzingis a terrible contract.
Isn’t that… knicksy?
If we had done that, we’d be apoplectic. And if what Dallas did is so horribly stupid, does that make what we did… smart?
By default i assumed this was terrible. But reading the comments… thenoblefacedhumper called it early and I think he’s right… this might be a smart move.
I had such a hard time looking past Dennis Smith Jr and the fear of what we might do with the cap space. But I’m coming around.
1 game, 28 games, same difference, right?
But yeah, weird thing to tweet since it is off by 27 games.
It is fair to say, though, that even in his mostly full seasons, Porzingis has missed a lot of time at the end of the season.
A deal can not work for both ends.
Wow, this transpired quickly.
Does this mean no Anthony Davis? Poo.
Are you making RuRu’s Bargnani argument?
(You are, but it makes much more sense with Porzingis.)
Funny how it just takes a few hours for people to digest big news like this to go from “HOLY SHIT WE’RE SO DUMB” to “wow, the Knicks might have really done something smart today.”
I REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHAT JOWLES THINKS.
You’re right. But if one team did something overwhelmingly stupid, the odds are in our favor.
i think this is a B to B+ move…. considering kp could’ve submarined a lot of deals by threatening the qo… the only thing i might’ve done was call up the clips or portland to pry sga or collins for a similar haul but i think the knicks did well…
what’s the minimum FA haul that would make this work? does it have to be two of the top guys?
LOL Dallas is beating Detroit going into the half 49-45. I guess they’ll wait until the fourth to tank the game.
I like the idea of trading Porzingis + salary baggage for a diverse portfolio of future assets. But this did happen rather quickly, and it does appear to quash the AD possibilities, which was somewhat exciting there for a moment (those moments have been few and very far between).
i think he’s saying after the month of March, so one game in April and beyond. In that case, it is true (4/2/2017 being the one), but it’s also a kinda pointless stat
Hasn’t AD signaled that he’s going to end up with LAL one way or the other as a way of discouraging other teams from trading for him?
No, ruru’s argument for Bargs was that he was an elite pick and pop big man and yadda yadda interaction effects he was going to be good. But pick and pop mid range jump shots aren’t very valuable. Bargs had no actual valuable skills. Kristaps is probably a really good 3 point shooter, he’s good enough at the rim, and he’s an elite rim protector. He already has demonstrated that he’s good at doing valuable things- he just really sucks ass shooting off the dribble. He doesn’t have to develop some new skills (although obviously it would be great if he did), he just has to stop taking mid range jump shots out of isos, because he sucks at that. I don’t know if just that one simple trick will make Kristaps an all-star level player, but it would make him a productive NBA player.
But here’s why I (and Kevin Pelton) think the Knicks came out on top; the Mavs are taking on all of the risk. There is nothing coming back to the Knicks that could be a toxic asset. Yes, they could use the cap space poorly, but the cap space itself is obviously not a toxic asset.
The Mavs on the other hand all but signed Porzingis to a max contract today (or acquired a player who will sign a QO, it’s tough to say which would be worse). Everyone here agreed that no matter how much they liked Porzingis, that was an enormously risky move.
The worst case scenario for the Knicks is that Porzingis becomes a great player for whom they have two first round picks and DSJ to show. The worst case scenario for the Mavs is…a whoooole lot worse than that.
Check this out.
Per Woj, we’re getting unprotected 2021 1st and top 10 protected 2023:
Sorry, I only know what I read here at KB. It’s my only source of news these days. (And I only read it sporadically in these dog days).
Don’t sleep on Dennis Smith Jr.! He is definitely playing better in his 2nd season, unlike Frank, and if he were able to get his turnovers under control would be a fine player already. Having 2 more seasons on his rookie contract to see if he’ll keep getting better is a pretty good deal.
Ugh, super pointless.
It’s tough bc he clearly scared teams like New Orleans and Phoenix away with his bluff about the QO.
I would have preferred a package of Ball and Hart but the lakers aren’t trading anything for porzingis is he can’t play this year and AD is available.
I would have preferred a package of Nets assets and I don’t care about sending him to Brooklyn but maybe that was unpalatable for Dolan.
I doubt Boston or philly were giving up more for him.
If you start from the idea that maxing him was unwise, I think trading him now and getting this haul is as good as it gets.
We dumped two guys we thought we’d never dump and we got two first round picks and we got a questionable prospect and we avoided a contract I didn’t want. That’s not bad. It all depends on what happens with the cap space.
Yeah. My first reaction, a gut reaction, was WTF! Now, after read the details of the trade, it’s making more sense. What tilts it for me are the 1st round picks. Look, they may not be high picks unless KP blows out his knee again, but we all put it at 20% when he was drafted and now we all probably think it’s a higher percent after the injury.
So instead of KP+Zion/etal+TopFA it’s Zion/etal+2 TopFA.
So Jordan and Matthews. Hmmmm, do they get to hang out with Kanter on the bench?
Correct- He’s only played one game in April (there’s a period after March so he means April- not March 1st. And given how bad the team was late in each season there was no reason for him to be playing with minor injuries.
As for the trade, given that both Lee and Hardaway would have each taken at least 2 second rounders to move (and in Hardaway’s case probably a first) I can’t imagine the Knicks could have done any better given KP’s injury and contract status. DSJ, two firsts and a boatload of cap space (plus potentially a second or two if they can move either WMJ or Jordan) is a very good return. You also make the team into an almost indestructible tank- seriously as long as Jordan, WMJ, and Kanter get waived by the trade deadline this team has zero chance of hitting 20 wins and might be lucky to get to 15.
Well, the Knicks can still make offers for AD. They can offer unprotected first rounders in 2019 and 2021. In fact, they can now offer two unprotected firsts in 2021. They can add to that some combo of DSJ, Knox, Ntilikina, MitchRob, etc. They have a couple of big expirings to make it all work.
If NO wants to tear down and rebuild, the Knicks are still in the AD sweepstakes. I’m not saying they should do so, but they still might.
Zion + KP + Doncic is now the most likely scenario (#dolansrazor).
I like it.
I’m sad KP didn’t work out, but a) he was going to seek a max and we shouldn’t give it and b) he was unhappy with the Knicks.
So, he probably needed to go.
If I remember correctly there were a lot of folks that wanted Smith on this board.
Most wanted to lose terrible contracts. Done and done, lee and THJ gone.
Last, a question:
Can the Knicks now turn around and use the first rounders to built an attractive offer for AD?
If not, this is a huge play for winning the Zion lottery, and signing KD and KI.
I’d take a Z, KD or AD, and KI for a KP, any day.
That unprotected 2021 pick could be a huge asset in the flattened lottery era. If Porzingis leaves or is hurt, that team could easily miss the playoffs. If they win 35 games and have the ninth worst record in the league, that’s a 20% chance at a Top 4 pick.
kp’s already productive…. dallas should use him well… and it’s really just like how they use dirk… but dirk really owned the elbows and was pretty aggressive going to the rim…. kp’s not that.. at least yet… but he can do all the pick and pop things dirk did as well as finish on rim runs….
still… it’s hard to envision him reaching elite levels…. his 2p fg% is very mediocre and it’s not all because of his shot selection…. he’s relegated to poor quality midrange shots because he has difficulties getting opportunities close to the rim himself…. that’s his biggest challenge…
of course having better playmakers around him will help… but i never viewed kp as a foundational piece…. a big man needs to be a presence on the boards, score efficiently inside with good volume as well as protect the paint…. kp only did one of those things so it’s a tall order for anyone to expect him to be more than a third banana… that’s why a max would’ve been not so great…
Now go flip Vonleh/Mud/Matthews/Jordan/Kanter for as many picks as you can get.
and another feature of the deal is that we keep alive our streak of not signing our picks beyond their rookie deal…
the charlie ward curse remains alive….
Ok, so it’s unprotected first 2021 and top 10 2023? That changes things a bit. It becomes a much more palatable deal.
I still don’t like DSJ and I don’t like that we had to use Porzingis to dump bad contracts like Hardaway and Lee, but at least both of those mistakes are gone and the picks have a good chance to be decent.
If KP was already planning to take the QO anyway if he stayed, it was actually a decent deal. If Smith Jr doesn’t work out he’s gone anyway after next season with not much cost, and the picks remain. It hurts a bit because we could have gotten a lot more for Porzingis in a different situation.
Now all they have to do really is to not fuck up free agency next summer, which means only give maxes to actual max guys like Durant Kyrie or Kawhi, and pass on everybody else unless a very favorable deal comes up, and keep on the road to Zion… and please trade or cut Kanter.
Hypothetically, if we sign two max FAs, how much cap space would we have left this offseason? I know it varies depending on how many years they’ve played (KD’s max is more than some others will be), but ballpark? Again, I’m assuming we screw this up, because we’re the Knicks, but if we’d have the cap space to keep Vonleh, I’d like to try.
The thing that annoys me most is we missed an opportunity to increase our chances for Zion. We should have made swap rights on their pick a higher priority. We could have realistically increased our chances from 14% to somewhere between 17 and 23%.
The plan just has to be AD and KD. Seems highly unlikely and very risky, but would be amazing if they can pull it off.
If that doesn’t work out, rent cap space for the next two years in a total rebuild. Hopefully add a couple more picks in the next 2-3 years.
The horror show would be Boogie and Kemba.
It’s not a curse if it’s totally controllable, right?
The New York Knicks had a player whose value around the league was higher than all available metrics said it should be. It’s tough to say exactly why, but it likely had to do with his propensity for highlight reel plays and pointzzz per game. The player was a few months away from an absolutely massive extension despite having a pretty disturbing medical history so naturally the New York Knicks…traded the player for two first round picks and a lottery pick from a season and a half ago? Huh.
And they also dumped a huge amount of unwanted salary and players allowing us to sign TWO Max players this offseason. I think we are taking a huge gamble but I think Dallas is taking the bigger gamble.
What kills me is I can’t beleivs Dallas wouldn’t have agreed to swap rights this year and to the 2nd pick being unprotected.
“On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.” -Begley
We can’t possibly plan on playing DAJ and Wes which makes this team much better…
It really all depends on what they do with the cap space.
Wes is really not that great, he’s a mediocre player playing for his next contract, he won’t help wins anymore than THJ did. I’ve watched a lot of the Mavs this season and DeAndre has been very overrated too, he gets rebounds and dunks but he’s slacking of a lot on defense, he barely tries. He has become a rim running version of Kanter, and with our guards it’s safe to assume he won’t be getting many good lobs or finishes inside anyway.
Assuming we get Kyrie + KD, that accounts for 30+35 which would leave about 9 million in cap of the 74 available. Good enough for another decent contract.
Or he’s saying what needs to be said in order to maintain leverage when he tries to trade both.
(Jesus, in the five hours since Brian started this discussion, I’ve gone from turning my back on the team to suggesting Perry knows what he’s doing. What the bleep is wrong with me/us?)
Yeah I really think this happened in 48 hours.
I think Andrea Bargnani sucked hard. And also I think that
and that is a pretty damn good return on an inescapable $154M max contract for a player who hasn’t played in a year and was pretty damn unproductive on three consecutive 30-win team before his catastrophic knee injury, which, again, he has not yet returned from.
Given that I don’t know whether there were better deals out there than a young, underachieving PG signed for two full seasons after this one AND two future firsts, I’d say that I’m pretty happy today.
The Porzingis contract will not be with the Knicks, and I will be the first one to eat crow when he comes back next year and wins DPOY while putting up 25 PPG on .590 TS%. But I also don’t see myself tasting that foul bird anytime soon.
i understand why people like this deal but i’m bummed. i mean, if you didn’t want to pay kp 25pct you have to fucking love this deal. my guess is kp will generate value even at the 25 pct level and that you will all hate dsj sooner than later. but the value is in the picks and they’re not chop liver. dallas will have a chance to add talent to Luka/KP by 2021, even more if they stretch timmy’s last year. that would kill the picks, but you never know, shit happens.
i really, really hate the mills/perry “you’re either with us or against us” comments as it spanks of a dolan loyalty pledge. i would have assigned a zero percent chance to kp taking the QO either here or in dallas no matter what he says, so i really wouldn’t GAF what janis says in the room. i also find it impossible to believe that you get your best offer for kp by quietly testing the waters and then only when kp frowny faces you, quickly pulling the trigger. but in the end it’s the deal you got that matters and i acknowledge they got something legit, including getting off one terrible deal and one bad deal.
i was really hoping to see kp and mitch defend together.
It’s very Knicksy to be celebrating the Knicks ‘getting’ a bunch of cap space they only didn’t have because of the extremely stupid contracts they gave to Lee and Hardaway. This deal is only good outside of the context of all the other stupid shit the Knicks have done and the real chance that they’re going to do something stupid with that cap space in the future.
I don’t know what the deal with that PIPM stat is, but Smith is about as productive as Mudiay or Burke, but his value, such as it is, comes on defense. Who knows-maybe he’ll get better away from that martinet Carlisle somehow.
After a nap and some reflection, I think tnfh has got hold of the right end of the stick. We traded an overrated player who’s still injured for a solid haul. I would have liked a better player back and pics from a worse team but the total package is pretty big. I hope we don’t fuck up free agency but that’s seperate from the trade. I grade it a B. It’s probably better than that in a vacuum but the return will never live up to the unicorn hype and the negative fan reaction has to count against it some.
Agreed. And I’d be much more upset about it if it were a year ago today, when Porzingis was still healthy.
I get why people are bummed. I don’t want the Charlie Ward Curse to continue, and I don’t want to celebrate the Lee/Hardaway dump any more than I celebrate someone for declaring bankruptcy to get out from a predatory auto loan on a flashy lemon that they never needed in the first place. That is very Knicksy. I just think it’s quite possible that in 2023, it’s MaverickBlogger.net, not us, talking about what they have to package to offload the Porzingis contract so their MVP candidate can finally make the 2nd round of the playoffs.
KD is pointless now.
The only plan should be Zion or AD and Kyrie. They’d make $59mm, you’d have room to add supporting players, and they’re 25 & 26 so they can grow with our young guys.
Even KD and Kawhi would be a waste. They would take up $71mm (all our space) and KD would be in decline by the time our young players could contribute. I’d rather use the cap space to acquire more assets and dig in for the long haul.
At this point, if we won the lottery I would pass on trading Zion for AD. We’d be in great shape for the zion era.
Saying ‘yeah we’re going to buy these guys out don’t try to trade for them’ would be malpractice. Matthews is kinda cooked but I guess Jordan could fuck things up for the tank by rebounding if we play him.
FWIW Zach Lowe is reporting that we have the first unprotected Dallas pick. That means we can jump Atlanta and get the pick in 2020 if Dallas is in the top 5 this year.
The second Mavs pick moves to second round if not conveyed by 2025. Seems unlikely that it wouldn’t convey by then, though.
Based on that language, though, doesn’t it suggest that the Knicks would get this year’s pick if the Mavericks keep it? That can’t be right, but that’s what that language sounds like.
Especially on the KP amd Mitch defensive front. With Frank up front too. It really would have been something.
I think history should reflect that we didn’t know about the first rounders at first.
In multiple ways the process is knicksy and clearly sucks.
But the end result, it doesn’t seem that bad.
It can’t be that this trade affects the outcome of an already existing trade. So maybe we get this year’s if it’s 1-5, then the 2021 pick if it isn’t.
FWIW Zach Lowe is reporting that we have the first unprotected Dallas pick. That means we can jump Atlanta and get the pick in 2020 if Dallas is in the top 5 this year.
no that’s not it. we get first available, after accounting for the hawks rights, which obviously do not change. so if the mavs get 1-5 but don’t next year, the hawks get 2020 and we get 2022 and 2024.
How knicksy is this?
We’re trading Porzingis bc he doesn’t think he can win here with our culture of losing but thinks he can with Doncic. But we could have had Doncic here except we spent last year playing veterans and trying to win to show Porzingis we can build a winning culture.
Ain’t that the rub.
Yeah, I think Lowe is describing it poorly. I think he means whenever it conveys to Atlanta, the Knicks get the pick the next possible year. The interesting thing is this, it is theoretically possible for the Hawks pick to not convey until 2023, in which case the Knicks would only get the Mavericks’ first and second rounder in 2025.
I’m wrong. It means if the Mavs’ pick goes to ATL this year we get the 2021 unprotected and the 2023 top ten. If it conveys to ATL in 2020 (cause it’s top five this year) we get the 2022 unprotected and the 2024 protected. If that gets pushed a year we get the 23 and 25, and if that gets pushed we get the 24 and 25 2nd rounder.
EDIT: as ptmilo says.
Wording strange, but it implies we get the first pick that Dallas can trade and that our right to that pick is unprotected, not that we get the first Dallas pick that doesn’t already have protections on it. Thus we get their pick if it is top 5 this year.
mills/Perry have my head going a mile a minute and I like it. Can’t remember ever seeing competence displayed in the f.o.. this move is what I would call a calculated risk. Ladies and gentleman we have ourself a competent front office.
He’s just misusing the term “next available.” It’s just a common thing NBA teams use in scenarios like this, where you have to wait for the first pick to convey for the next one to convey, so you say “next available” instead of a specific year.
Gotcha. I was looking at this from Knicks film school:
The next unprotected means it is not the atlanta pick even if it falls down to 1-5?
We’ve got a long fucking way to go before we can claim our front office is competent. We just traded our best player asset to, in part, dump a salary that this front office stupidly gave out a year and a half ago.
The knicks film school description makes no sense to me.
Yes, Atlanta gets their pick the we get the ons two years later.
Next unprotected means it is the first available pick after the Atlanta pick conveys. They can’t leap ahead of Atlanta’s rights.
It is incorrect.
I would imagine that the pick owed to Atlanta takes precedence just because that trade was made first.
The “next available” aspect of the picks in the Knicks/Mavericks trade are confusing, but essentially, it just means that the Knicks get an unprotected first round pick two years after the Mavs convey the pick they owe Atlanta. The only way that that can hurt the Knicks is that if the Hawks don’t get that pick until 2022 or 2023 (due to the various protections on that pick), then the Knicks only get one first round pick (the other pick becomes a second rounder in 2025).
So assuming Dallas stays roughly where they are in the lottery (they have a 2.8% chance of going 1-4, but 77.6% at pick 11 atm), the 2019 pick goes to Atlanta, and 2021 comes to us unprotected given Dallas will be impacted by the Stepien Rule. That is of course Dallas don’t bomb completely for the rest of the season.
Also I recommend checking Michael Rapaport’s twitter. He seems to be taking it well.
Hmm… that makes sense. So we get 2 years after ATL and 4 years after ATL top 10 protected, unless it runs past 2025, then we get a 2nd rounder.
Here’s ATL pick conditions:
Dallas’ 1st round pick to Atlanta protected for selections 1-5 in 2019, 1-5 in 2020, 1-3 in 2021 and 1-3 in 2022 and unprotected in 2023 [Atlanta-Dallas, 6/21/2018]
So technically we could not see the first pick till 2025.
Just saw BC’s post at 268 so disregard 269
Correct. The odds are that the picks convey in 2021 and 2023.
Agreeing to swap would nullify the advantage they gain from Dolan’s Razor. The Mavs ain’t dumb.
whoa. draft pick two years from now. hope dallas will suck and we get a high pick.
I dont understand the SWAP thing? what is that? is it part of the deal?
No. Some folks were hoping that they would get it, but there are no swap rights in the deal.
Yeah, but Dallas has great incentive to tank the rest of the year… Let’s hope THJ gets super hot!
the protections are interesting because with or without KP, there’s a decent chance the Mavs could be great in 4 years just from Doncic alone.
Or if Dallas lands a top 10 pick several years in a row.
Also, Dallas isn’t that far from falling into a 30% chance of a top pick. Not crazy after losing Deandre Jordan.
Tankathon has Dallas with a 9.4% chance of picking top 4 and since they just traded two of their better players for THJr, Burke, and an injured KP I would imagine they’ll be falling in the standings soon. They’re currently 11th but there’s only 1 game back of Washington in 8th. I’m guessing that they’ll end the season somewhere in the middle of the lotto rankings which would give them around a 30% chance of moving up.
As far as the timing is concerned, I too hope the Knicks did some shopping around. Keep in mind though that Perry is publicly saying that Porzingis essentially asked out. If that had leaked (and it would have) our leverage would’ve went kaput. So I can see how there might have been a sense of urgency.
Obviously we could’ve told him to shove it due to our RFA rights, but Porzingis still had the ability to make our lives very difficult if he was truly committed to spending as little time as possible on the New York Knicks. Aside from taking the QO which I agree was unlikely, he could’ve signed a 2 + 1 offer sheet early in the offseason. We would’ve either lost him for nothing, or matched and been eliminated from doing anything remotely interesting this offseason. In the latter scenario, we’re also in pre-agency hell almost immediately.
Even if you think there’s no way he would’ve passed up the 5/$156M when push came to shove, that seemed like a big enough risk before we knew KP wanted nothing to do with us. It’s very hard to imagine it ending well if he was constantly angling for his next move.
At the end of the day I’m bummed too. If I was playing a video game this would’ve been a no-brainer but I really, really want to see the Charlie Ward streak come to an end. Porzingis, warts and all, certainly has a chance to be a great player and his rookie season was probably the most elated I’ve ever been as a Knicks fan (yes, I’m on the younger side here).
But when I look at all the factors I just can’t help but come to the conclusion that this move is consistent with the principles we’ve been begging the Knicks to operate under for years. What’s funny is I’m pretty sure the move would be better received here if it was exactly the same but without the bad contract dumps (which is understandable given our history).
True, that could be a problem with the second pick.
I definitely would not have been happy with a Porzingis for DSjr and a 2021 first rounder and a 2023 first rounder protected #1-10 trade. That’s my issue in a nutshell. The only way this pays off in my book is if they have an under the table deal for two of the major guys to come over this year. And it could pay off that way. But that’s not a “patient” approach.
And Zach Lowe agrees with me on that (so long as we’re citing ESPN writers who agree with us. 😉 ).
Here’s a problem:
Dallas will have something between $60-$75mm in cap space (depending on if they stretch Hardaway or not) to surround Porzingis and Doncic in the summer before the 2021 season. It’s hard to imagine them not being good the year we have that unprotected pick.
This trade reeks of haste. Mavs just played the NYKs, so Mills/Perry cut the deal before they left town ;-). This may turn out OK, but we may have to wait years to cash in those 1RPs. NYKs should have held a weeks-long auction, as, IMO, KP still has great value, as right now there’s not a lot of salary to match up if you deal for him by himself. You mean to tell me you couldn’t have gotten more by offering KP to Lakers, who would have given 1 (or more) #1s, Ball and maybe Kuzma? Or to Houston: D’Antoni would have told his FO to offer Capela and FOUR #1s for KP. Bundling this trade with the dumping of Lee & THJ is the wrong way to move a player with such trade value, so MP took the quick and easy way out by combining both goals. Also, remember they have no loyalty to Phil’s picks, including Nilla, who’s next out the door.
Usually when the Knicks make a major move, my reaction is usually instant horror. Most major Knick transactions come with a familiar feeling, the feeling that there is just about a zero percent chance of the move working out, and an almost certainty of complete failure. I’ve felt this feeling many times over the years. In recent years alone there was Bargs, the MegaMaxMelo contract, Joakim Noah, Derrick Rose, THJ. You know, the kind of moves that are gobsmackingly stupid right on their face to anybody with even a passing knowledge of basketball.
At first I thought this was one of those transactions. But this seems like this might be a different kind of bad Knick transaction, more of a slow motion bad transaction. It could still turn out pretty good! Maybe one or more of the marquee free agents comes here! And if not, maybe the FO is smart enough to rent out the cap space, take on a bad contract or two for a year, pick up assets in the process then try again in 2020! Maybe the unprotected pick from the Mavs turns out to be a lottery pick! And maybe the two picks get conveyed on schedule in 2021 and 2023! There are actually some scenarios where this works out!
But then again this is Knick basketball and Dolan’s Razor is very real. So maybe the cap space turns into long term contracts for Boogie Cousins and Tobias Harris, maybe the first Mavs pick doesn’t convey until 2025 and the other one turns into a second rounder. If those things happen then this was a terrible trade.
What if it was the best trade offer on the table, with the alternative being signing a disgruntled KP for $30M+ AAV for 5 years? Or matching a 2 + 1 early in the offseason?
How can you say this when the main thing we’ve been wanting the Knicks to do for years is rent out cap space for assets? We could strike out on everyone and then immediately revert to a Process of sorts. This option would flatly not be available to us if we had a 5/$156M contract on our books.
Our position vis-a-vis KP’s contract was always gonna be shitty because instead of acquiring surplus assets while KP was still on his rookie deal, Phil Jackson sat on his ass while retreads told him how smart he was and how well they’d fit in the triangle if he would only give them $72 million dollars. As a result of that, KP was up for a max contract when said contract would’ve only solidified a core that might be worth 35 wins fully healthy. I think we went with the best of a bunch of mediocre-to-bad options.
I guess the upside is we have gone from knowing outright from the get go that a trade we made was bad, to suggesting a trade we made is bad but only if x happens. Baby steps.
Because I don’t think that could possibly be the best offer on the table.
Do you seriously think that they plan on renting out cap space when they made a point to clear out $74 million in cap space this offseason?
theres some risk on both sides of this deal… but the mavs took on a lot more of it imo…
this deal only really works out for them if kp is a borderline allstar and they resign him…. i dont really think he could be that good or even stay healthy….
its a lot to give up if hes only like a little better than he is now….
And if it comes out that there was a superior one out there, you can rely on me to change my opinion. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there wasn’t, honestly. Teams are sooooo stingy with first rounders, especially unprotected ones, these days. As the initial Shams report about KP taking the QO makes clear, there’s tons of uncertainty around KP for any team. The contract situation is bad. The injury situation is bad. His production has yet to match the hype (though as I’ve mentioned, I’m bullish on this changing).
I don’t think it’s their Plan A, no. But if KD/Kawhi/Kyrie/AD/Butler et al. all land elsewhere, I see no reason why they can’t pivot. If you get two of these guys, suddenly you have a potential top-4 playoff team with surplus draft picks. If you don’t, you can begin the first rebuild in the history of the New York Knicks.
Of course, this could all go to hell if they choose to spend the cap space like morons. On that front, we can only wait-and-see.
I agree with you on mostly everything, my issue is only that I do think the FO will get antsy and just hand max contracts to whoever is available, Kemba, Middleton, Harris, whoever, if they strike out on Durant, Kyrie or Kawhi. That is actually a terrible scenario, a capped out team with little talent and the Mavs picks become the only hope.
If they stay patient with the rebuild and only pull the trigger on the true max worthy guys, this trade will end up being a success most likely, barring any sort of major improvement from Porzingis on the Mavs. I still doubt they’ll be patient with the process.
I’m giddy as a little school girl…
to be honest – I wasn’t looking forward to another 2 or 3 years of not reaching .500 ball in a season…
our only chance at that happening was clearing enough space to sign some legit NBA talent…
I was pretty skeptical we could move timmy and lee without giving up frank, knox, and some picks…not that either frank or knox are playing too great…
we got rid of timmy, lee and burke, and, pretty much guaranteed ourselves we won’t have to watch mudiay play next year…
just about every running dunk porzingis had I would cringe when his leg would turn sideways when he landed…the mav fans can sweat his health now…
if we would not have been able to improve our team significantly next year – kp would have made things really difficult to keep hold of him…as in signing a qualifying offer and pulling a kawhi and just not playing…
who knows how our draft position plays out, or, if we’re able to actually sign 2 or 3 good players…
at least for today – we are in much better shape than yesterday…
That is the scary part of the deal. If we strike out on the marque FA’s so be it, we take our lumps from the LOLKnicks crowd and pivot back to our rebuild. However if we go into a Donnie Walsh panic and sign Amare 2.0, then the trade grade probably goes down unless DSJ turns into a transcendent PG…..which is a stretch.
They just cut bait on their franchise player. I suspect if they can’t sign their main targets in free agency they’ll have the balls to not blow their wad on the also-rans.
Hope so anyway.
@293 I agree with every word.
I think we’re in a better position than we were before the trade, but with the New York Knicks that can change veeeeeery quickly.
OK, so hypothetically, the Knicks whiff on KD, Kawhi and Kyrie. Do they:
A. Just sign whatever guy is still available that has the highest PPG to a megamax, or
B. Rent the cap space, take on a bad contract, pick up assets, blah blah blah
I mean, it’s like a 99.999999999% chance of option A, correct?
Sure, that’s fair. If they pivot, then I’d be impressed with them being willing to pivot (I’d still think they would be able to get more if they had just traded Porzingis on his own, but it would impress me).
man, at least wait til perry really screws the pooch before you start pooping your pants from imagining ghosts of season’s past…
seriously, it’s gonna be okay – until it’s not okay…and then, they’ll be plenty of time for worry and sorrow…
The biggest thing the Knicks acquired in this trade is an opportunity. They gave themselves an opportunity to become an instant pseudo-contender in the 2019 offseason. If they sign two of the Big 5, that’s a home run. If they max out Tobias Harris and Middleton, that’ll fuck us over for years (a.k.a. the old usual).
Either way, the opportunity to make or break this franchise in the summer was bought today.
This morning I thought there was no chance we didn’t max KP.
well there’s some interesting guys this year in FA…. and 2020 seems bare… and then 2021 is when it starts getting interesting again but probably not where you wanna spend money either… if i had cap space this would be the year to spend it imo….
yes guys like boogie or kemba and middleton are probably a waste of cap space…. but there are some situations where you might think about shelling out some money for… and ppl are gonna call me crazy… d’angelo russell…. and some of the other guys in the restricted market from the 2015 draft…
that strategy kind of hinges on getting zion tho… and maybe even one of the other top picks might make sense to jumpstart a young core…. but you also have guys like noel that might be interesting to sign long term(but yeah not max)….
you also have to realize that other teams have a lot of space too… so renting out space isn’t worth all that much…. so it’s probably better to work with it than to let it sit and do nothing…
that’s not to say to go crazy with it…. but there’s reasonable gambles to make with some of the young guys that’s available this year beyond the headline names…
I absolutely agree that this free agency period is going to be a lot better than next year. They definitely do have that in their favor.
There was a bit that said that 36 of the last 38 NBA Finals have involved one of the following seven players:
Interesting stuff. If only someone from the 1990 Pistons or Blazers played for the 1994 Knicks or Rockets, then we could have had 8 players for all 38 seasons! 🙂
300+ posts, KB blowing up
Finding out there are scenarios where the 2 first round picks don’t convey until 2024 or 2025 and one of them might turn into a second rounder adds significant risk to the Knicks. The truth is we won’t know how this is going to turn out for several years. One issue is the mysterious lack of energy exhibited by Porzingis every year by January. If he truly is anemic and can’t get that under control then he’ll never be an impact player and good riddance. On the other hand he certainly is talented and has the potential for a unique skill set. Playing with Doncic he could be dynamic, if he can stay on the court.
Mills and Perry have to use that cap space very wisely or we are seriously fucked.
Getting Zion and even one of KD, Kylie, Kawhi, or AD would be terrific. I’m not counting on the stars aligning like that due to Dolan’s Razor.
I’ve read all the posts here, and it’s nice some here don’t hate the trade. They haven’t convinced me. I let it sink in and i still hate it. Porzingis is only 22. He is the same age and the same size as Jabbar was when he entered the league. He has the potential to be unstoppable on offense and he’s good on defense. Of course there’s a chance he could get injured again, but Dallas wouldn’t have made the trade without reading the medical reports. Someone here compared it to Hinkie and I really hope it turns out Hinkie or Ainge like; but it is much more likely to be Donnie Walsh like. Here is my haiku.
Dreams shout in your heart
The bell tolls, you are awake
Silence is empty
That’s good haiku.
The papers are signed.
So much possibility
walking out the door.
“We made you,” the fans
cry out. “My life, my choices,”
he smirks. “My Luka.”
@308 you nailed it.
What a horrible, horrible trade.
as the wise and wild curly bill once said:
By the way, KP’s qualifying offer lowered to just $4.5 million due to time missed. Therefore, is that serious leverage? “I’ll take $4.5 million and hope for $150 million the following instead of just taking the $150 million now!” Seems like BS.
Let’s say that the Knicks get Irving and Durant. That’d be amazing, of course. That would still leave them with, like, $5 million, I believe. You could probably re-sign Vonleh and then use the room exception to get someone else decent (or reverse that and sign someone else and use the room on Vonleh).
Let’s say they get, I dunno, Barrett (I figure he’s a nice medium result between great and terrible lottery luck).
So your starting five is:
Robinson (maybe you start Vonleh to keep Robinson out of foul trouble early?)
with Barrett, Frank, Dotson, DSJ, Vonleh, room exception guy A, re-signed Kornet (he’d be restricted and they can use up to the mid-level on him to bring him back, so he’ll be back) and a couple of vet minimum guys/undrafted picks.
How many wins do you think that team gets next year? That’s not a rhetorical question, I’m curious as to what people think.
Unfortunately Brian, I actually don’t think we do have that much space. If we waive Lance we’ve got 28m committed to 6 guys – Dot, Mitch, Knox, Frank, DSj and trier (and including Noah’s dead money).
Add a cap hold for our 1Rp – if no 1 that’s close to 10m.
Five empty roster charges – another 4m. So 42m and a cap of 108. About 66m in room. A ten year max and a 6-9 year max come to about 69m, though you can net two roster charges off that (67.6). Basically, to fully max KD and Kyrie they’d have to take slightly under the max or we’d have to release trier or resign him under the room exception, although it will be easier if we pick lower.
Thanks for the info. I didn’t even look into it myself, I just assumed the dudes reporting it knew what they were talking about. My mistake there. Seems like they can get pretty much there, though, by simply not drafting #1, right? I mean, of course, we want them to draft #1, but I mean if they draft even #2, that opens up the extra $1.4 million they’d need to get to $69, right?
But yeah, that would mean only having the room and so it’d be Vonleh or another guy instead of Vonleh and another guy.
Still, in such a scenario, obviously we know that there are decent guys willing to take the vet minimum to play with KD and Irving, so I don’t think it changes the math too much on what we can expect from next year’s team (by the way, if they did get the #1 pick, then I bet it’d be even more likely that KD and Irving would be willing to shave $700,000 each off of their deals to play with Zion, ya know?)
As an aside, what the fuck is up with the shitty Pistons? Barely beating the Mavs with such a short roster (and no Luka). With the win, they’re still just 22-28! Dang! And yet they’re just two games out of the playoffs. Double dang!
In the East that’s easily a playoff team, my over/under will be 47,5.
Once the details are finally defined,
Pelton gave us a B and Dallas a C-, Duncan and Laroux think the FO did a nice job even if Laroux call us “right now from a basketball prospective an empty canvass”, while the guys at 538 had only partial info at the time of their roundtable (and some of them suffer from PTSD being former Knick’s beat or fans, just like us).
Duncan & Laroux released (Patreon subscribers only) the updated cap situation,
using 1st pick value for projected draft expenses (Zion will get 9.65 Mil in the first year), including roster charges for empty roster spots and the dead money for Noah and LT (1 Mil guaranteed).
I’m a bit surprised, it’s less then I thought:
69,5 Mil even declining Trier option and with only 6 players signed (Knox, MitchRob, Frank, Dot, DSJ, 1st, we could resign Kornet and Vonleh later in different ways).
Max contracts for KD and Kyrie sums up around 71 Mil so there’s still work to do but I’m sure they’re counting pennies and dimes to try it…
Or they could take slightly less then the max to join forces… they just need to renounce 1 Mil each 🙂
Grocer, your Haiku is good too
I still can remember sitting in the blues above the playoff series between the Bullets and the Knicks in 1970. I was hooked and in heaven (literally and figuratively). For an increasingly smaller number of NY fans, the Knicks were what made basketball so alluring. Every year of this team’s existence since has been a steadily eroding sense of joy and, by extension, loyalty. From Bernard King’s evaporating knee, to Charles Smith’s failed put-back, to Ewing’s missed finger roll and to the s**tstorm that’s ensued, I’m convinced these are the last words I’ll ever utter here. So, fare thee well, my fellow masochists!
@319-Holzmansghost-perfect expression of the last 50 years of Knick history.