Knicks Morning News (2018.08.02)

If Rodman played today instead of in the 90s, people today would be saying “this Dennis Rodman guy is the future of the NBA”.

Ok, Roberson is a good example showing that someone could give rodman major minutes today.
However, using g state is kind of cheating; you could give Lance Thomas 30 minutes a night and they’d still win a title.

Hmmm, that’s an interesting question. If the 2018-19 Warriors had to give Lance Thomas 30 mpg every game in the playoffs, would they still be title favorites? That’s a lot of minutes. Iggy only averaged 27 mpg last playoffs.

The Rodman argument is kind of settled, the next question is would peak Melo be considered top 10 in today’s NBA.
I say no.

Like, would anyone anywhere consider him top 10? Probably.

I never considered him top 10, or top 20. He really was never that good.

Peak Melo would have a great shot to be top 10 in the league today for a few reasons:

1) He would undoubtedly be a power forward who shot 3s and took guys off the dribble.

2) In today’s NBA, the guy who gets the rebound can bring it up the floor. For that reason alone Melo would be a double digit rebounder.

3) Less wear and tear on his body considering he wouldn’t have to face David West and Kevin Garnett in the playoffs.

4) He would have the ball in pick and roll sets, and would be involved in more pick and pops.

It’s different when you’re raised in the AI-Kobe era of NBA ball instead of the Durant/LeBron era. I think a prime Melo in 2018’s NBA would be a healthy Jabari Parker/Tobias Harris hybrid of a player. It always came down to how Melo saw the game, and this era is less about “give me the ball and get out the way” and more about “give me the ball, set a screen, and make yourself useful.”

2) In today’s NBA, the guy who gets the rebound can bring it up the floor. For that reason alone Melo would be a double digit rebounder.

dude

The Rodman argument is kind of settled, the next question is would peak Melo be considered top 10 in today’s NBA.
I say no.

The answer is clearly yes. Look at Melo’s 12-13 year, his only top 5 MVP finish. Now look at DeRozan’s 17-18 year and where he finished in MVP voting. Some things have changed but general perception, including media perception, has barely changed.

hehe:

“In a recent interview with The Undefeated, Anthony said he knows “how to play this game of basketball” and when he’s “ready to take that role, then I’ll take that role.”

“Only I know when it’s best for me to take that role,” Anthony added. “I’m not going to do that in a situation where I still know my capabilities and what I can do.””

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/8/2/17642536/carmelo-anthony-houston-rockets-james-harden-mike-dantoni

What was peak Melo is an interesting question. He had a pretty weird career, with a peak when he was like 21-22 and then another when he got good at shooting 3s with the Knicks when he was like 29 and a long stretch in the middle where he was pointz Melo.

I think at Melo’s best year, which production wise is probably 2013-14, he was a top 20 player, an all-star level player. He rebounded better that year and all his major advanced stats pretty much were career highs while playing 38 mpg with super high usage.

It’s a shame we lost useless players like Novak and Kidd who couldn’t create their own shots and surprisingly sucked that year, but it’s still probably his best season ever and the closest he’s been to that conversation.

He still played crap defense.

Watching the demise of Melo is true schadenfreude.

3) Less wear and tear on his body considering he wouldn’t have to face David West and Kevin Garnett in the playoffs.

Haha, yeah, those 200 minutes he played against a strong guy that one time are why Carmelo Anthony was a chucking black-hole that didn’t play defense. Got it.

(Good to know Ruruland lives on here in 2018)

There’s a reason Melo never listened to coaches or learned to maximize the skills he developed by working so hard on his game. He could have been a much better player.

r/Rockets has this to say about Carmelo:

-he wasn’t that bad last year (wrong)
-if he was bad, it was because Russ is an inaccurate passer (probably irrelevant)
-if it wasn’t from Russ, it was because Donovan had no idea what he was doing (sure, but Carmelo ain’t gonna change for nobody)
-Chris Paul can make Carmelo change because he’s Chris Paul (because he’s a much better leader than the then-reigning MVP, who plays as hard as anyone I’ve ever seen)
-he’s only a minimum slot (i.e. he’s the best player available on the market at that price, lol)
-D’antoni/Melo feud is water under the bridge (maybe, but we’ll see how that pans out)
-they can cut him if he’s bad (true, but will they? and how long will they pass the buck before admitting that he’s washed up?)

“Only I know when it’s best for me to take that role,” Anthony added. “I’m not going to do that in a situation where I still know my capabilities and what I can do.”

I’d love to see ruruland’s response to this. Melo is garbage and will stop chucking only when he decides to.

What a fucking cancer.

My Melo hater chops are well established, but I do think it would be interesting to see what kind of player he would’ve become if he came up in the 2015-2020 drafts. It’s quite possible that he was simply too stubborn to ever play a highly productive brand of basketball.

As someone mentioned earlier, though, the whole idea of a player “who can get you 30 every night” or whatever just isn’t viewed the same way as it was in the 2000s. Even the financial incentives are slowly turning in the direction of efficiency.

It wouldn’t shock me if Melo could be a consistent 58%+ TS guy, even on high volume, if he understood the concept of efficiency and incorporated it into his game. Where ruru and er and co. got it wrong was assuming he was ever willing to do anything close to that, as his play with the reigning MVP and Paul George demonstrated.

r/Rockets has this to say about Carmelo:

I give it until January. By then we’ll hear rumblings from fans about how the Rockets are better with player “x” on the court instead of Melo. Player “x” will of course be some young kid or other player that picked up just to have some depth.

D’Antoni will understand that Melo should be benched.

Morey will understand that Melo should be benched.

Melo will start complaining about how they are using him, arguing to get back in the game every time the Rockets go on a big run with player “x” in the game so it’s not so obvious he’s the problem, he’ll start feigning injuries, complaining about calls, sulking, etc… We’ll see all the standard Melo stuff we’ve been seeing for years because it’s never his fault.

The real question is will anyone finally just pull the plug and tell him he sucks and bench him.

@23/24

For somebody who hates Melo you look like a skyscraper sized dick for having a username of the guy who traded the farm for him and essentially ruined this decade of Knicks basketball.

And you probably forgot but Kevin Garnett tore Melo’s labrum in Game 5 of that series in 2013. The big reason Melo was resistant to playing the 4 was because he didn’t want to get hammered by guys like Gasol, Ibaka, Aldridge, Griffin, Randolph, Garnett, Boozer, Bosh, Nowitzki, David Lee, Kevin Love, and Paul Millsap. I’m sorry I didn’t spell it out for you initially but I figured brain power would lead you to the point I was trying to make.

Also yes, a version of Jabari Parker that never tore an ACL (he had ACL surgery twice as a pro) and shoots like Tobias Harris would be a franchise piece in today’s NBA.

Before you click the link, try to figure out who this is about, Melo or Parker:

[He] is on another level from his peers, skill wise … Very strong, bulky forward with elite level face up game for his age … An underrated athlete; plays a smooth, if not overpowering brand of ball, and is more likely to muscle through opponents than blow by them … Possesses very good hands … Shows the ability to grasp nuances of the game … Has a passion for basketball, and this comes out in his play … A la Paul Pierce, is especially good at step back jumper, and can do it in both directions … Creates a ton of separation with his step back … Can go to work in the post, especially against smaller and weaker defenders … Will likely be developed as a small forward in the NBA, where he will immediately become one of the largest and strongest at this position … Work ethic is phenomenal … Really wants to be a leader; wants to be great … Even in high school, practiced with the focus of a pro … Has been a winner every step of the way of his career; won four straight titles in high school … Can create for teammates thanks to his high basketball IQ and overall play making ability … Commands so much attention from opposing defenses that teammates will find themselves with more opportunities to receive the ball in a position to score with him on the floor … Can finish with both hands around the hoop … Solid, but not great ability to knock down the NBA 3-ball … Had some impressive dunks in his freshman season, which proved that he does possess the hops and explosiveness that he often does not get credit for … Also showed surprising body control and ball handling, weaving through defenders for finishes at the rim in the open floor …

Link

@39 I see one guy playing a role in 50 games and one guy dominating a playoff team’s offense in 81 games. We continue to diverge in the evaluation of high usage players, that will probably never change. I noticed that your favorite stats du jour BPM and VORP (not to mention WS48 and PER) significantly favor Melo in that year. But I did specifically say prime Melo. We’ll never know what Parker could have been if his knees held up, maybe he develops, maybe he doesn’t. Given his recent idiotic quote about defense, he’s got that part down! And 3-pt shooting is more in vogue now, so Parker has the edge there, but that year was Melo’s worst from 3 and he only had a .097 3-pt rate. There’s a huge gap in FTr, Melo was light years better in getting to the line.

Melo’s problem was never the era of basketball he played in. His offensive skills are versatile enough that he’d be able to accommodate just about any style of play in his physical prime years. Melo’s problem is that he has a conception of himself that is inflated in comparison to his actual value as a player. It’s a classic case of illusory superiority run amok.

I occasionally look at the subreddits related to basketball and this was pretty much OKC reaction to Melo. They took about half a season to realize he was a net negative and wasn’t going to get better. I think Houston fans are probably more delusional but will still eventually figure it out.

I see one guy playing a role in 50 games and one guy dominating a playoff team’s offense in 81 games.

So the difference between a role player and a dominant offensive player is 17 FGA/36 to 19.2. Are you serious?

We continue to diverge in the evaluation of high usage players, that will probably never change.

You obviously struggle with the definition of “high usage player” if you think that Jabari Parker’s 26.5 USG% isn’t high. Removing players <1000 MP that season, he ranked 31st in FGA/100, just after role player LeBron and before role player Kevin Durant. He also shot more FGA per possession than famed role players Kristaps Porzingis, Jimmy Butler, Giannis Antetokoumpo and Blake Griffin.

I noticed that your favorite stats du jour BPM and VORP (not to mention WS48 and PER) significantly favor Melo in that year.

They slightly favor Melo (VORP is not rate-adjusted and PER is a total joke), but their ORtgs are the same. Most of this value is from the league average shooting efficiency between lower in 2006 than 2017 (.536 vs. .552). Not a huge jump, but the combination of better-than-average TS% and slightly higher usage means Carmelo was a more valuable offensive player, on the whole. This is not LeBron vs. Joe Johnson, here.

But I did specifically say prime Melo.

Which is why I posted the best comparison we have, as there’s nothing fair about putting Carmelo’s age-28 (or whatever) season against a 21-year-old’s. Their games are remarkably similar, adjusting for age.