(Sunday, January 28, 2018 6:43:58 PM)
The NBA trade deadline arrives one week from Thursday, so there remains roughly a week and a half for rumor mongers to enjoy the most wonderful time of their year. So for a week and a half, teams must decide to either buy, sell or stand pat in what could be an active trade session….
(Sunday, January 28, 2018 2:08:12 PM)
According to Knicks rookie shooting guard Damyean Dotson, the G-League exists to help confidence — not hurt. While the Knicks are so far reluctant to give rookie point guard Frank Ntilikina a game in Westchester — perhaps not to bruise his ego — Dotson just came off a two-week stint. The Knicks’ 2017 second-round pick…
(Sunday, January 28, 2018 11:14:32 AM)
Trey Burke isn’t the only one who has changed since his days with the Jazz. So has his father, Benji Burke, a Division II scholarship player at Northwest Missouri State who coached his son throughout AAU and moonlighted briefly as his agent. During Burke’s Jazz stint, Benji was active on Twitter — too active, he…
(Sunday, January 28, 2018 7:49:26 PM)
When the Knicks finally return to the Garden on Tuesday to face the Nets for their first home game since Jan. 14, fans may see a lot more of Trey Burke and a lot less of Frank Ntilikina.
(Sunday, January 28, 2018 6:10:28 PM)
The NBA trade deadline is Feb. 8. With that in mind, these players could be involved in deals:
(Sunday, January 28, 2018 7:01:52 AM)
On a small scale Saturday night, Josh Longstaff showed the Knicks why, yet again, they may have tossed away the wrong assistant coach.
(Sunday, January 28, 2018 11:35:30 PM)
Knicks forward Kristaps Porzingis, who is eligible to sign a max contract extension this summer, still has a desire to remain in New York, his agent and brother, Janis, told Newsday’s Al Iannazzone.
(Sunday, January 28, 2018 5:00:38 PM)
Kristaps Porzingis will get to live his dream on Feb. 18 when he suits up for his first All-Star Game of his career.
(Sunday, January 28, 2018 11:44:14 AM)
Knicks SG Courtney Lee has garnered trade rumors, and despite the trade deadline a few days away, he is still focused on playing in New York.
148 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.01.29)”
Kevin Knox came up in yesterday’s thread and feels a bit like destiny, so for the record I see almost nothing to get excited about. Seriously I do not see a single standout skill. The Tatum comparison is inevitable, but even Tatum (who is vastly exceeding expectations in his own right) was a way better rebounder (8.8 vs 7.0 per 40) and shot blocker (1.4 vs 0.4 per 40) in college.
Knox has some scoring polish, but it’s never really clear how that will translate to the NBA and nothing else is there. Him and Sexton look like the absolute landmines of the lottery. That’s not to say the other players in that range don’t have flaws, and probability/history tells us some of them will be busts too, but there’s at least something to get excited about with most of them.
If we stay at 12 Robert Williams is my favorite choice barring someone else falling unexpectedly (Mikal Bridges, JJJ, and Wendell Carter would all be great).
Kevin Knox’s ability to shoot threes and beat his man off the dribble are plus skills when you consider he will play power forward at the next level. He’s an inch taller than Tatum and a superior athlete on top of that. I don’t think Knox will have Tatum’s immediate success as an NBA player, but I do think Knox has a good shot to be successful at the next level. He’s been more efficient as a collegiate scorer than Tatum was, and Knox plays for an inferior program with an inferior coach that does nothing for him to put him in advantageous scoring positions. In conference play, Knox is posting a .592/.526 TS/eFG split. Knox is also 18 years old and might be the youngest player in the draft. Knox at 12 feels like Booker and Mitchell at 13. I like his potential as a combo forward and think he’d fill an important role on this team next to KP.
I just can’t possibly see drafting another center type who’s unable to stretch the floor. We know that KP’s best position in the future is going to be at center, and if you just keep putting dudes next to him who need to play near the basket, you’ll just be committing KP to the 4 on offense forever — which is not terrible if you’re going to run a D’Antoni offense where KP stands in the corner as a stretch 4, but that seems less than ideal. Defensively he definitely looks super bouncy and between him and KP you’d have some serious block parties.
If we’re not going to be in the top 6-7, I’d much rather draft a 6’8″ wing in the Tatum/Jaylen Brown mold, although who knows what will be available by then. Mikal Bridges would be perfect.
That said – we should definitely be in BPA mode. Who knows – we could trade Willy, and KOQ could leave in FA, leaving us just with Kanter for 1 year and Noah.
Interesting tidbit from the Berman article about Trey Burke’s dad — I forgot that Scott Perry was an assistant coach at Michigan during the Fab Five era. Prob knew Hardaway and Burke from that connection.
Has anyone heard anything of interest about our 2-way guys?
Superficially looking at their numbers, they seem pretty good —
Kornet is shooting 46% from 3 on huge volume (6+ 3’s per 36)
Hicks is shooting 58% from the floor and averaging 19/10 and 3 blocks per 36 – and even more promising is that he’s shooting 46% on mid-range shots, when in college he basically never took a shot away from the rim — maybe he is actually developing there.
And their production is actually translating to wins FWIW – Westchester has the best record in the G-league this year at 22-12.
I haven’t had the chance to go see a game in White Plains yet this year, but I wonder whether either of these guys is looking good enough that we’ll get to see them in MSG this year.
I watched a pair of games on Twitch,
it’s difficult to evaluate players in the G-League,
the play is so sloppy, but you could see twinkles as in Burke’s case.
On offense Kornet shows a good touch on threes, Hicks seems very active and it’s true he’s shooting midrange and more and more going away from the rim.
I think the Knicks’ll use all the 45 NBA days available for them as soon as we go “extended spring training”, probably around the 25-26 of february if I count correctly.
Edit: Westchester’s playoff run could change that. Westchester’s last RS game is march 23.
The other day I was speculating on OKC being in “win now” mode and being a buyer to replace Roberson. My fist instinct was Lee because he’s a veteran that would help space the floor and defend well enough (even if he’s not a Roberson level defender). The problem was figuring out a deal. But maybe I had the wrong Knick in mind. What about Thomas? He’s more of a SF, but we have used him to defend SGs and he offers more than Roberson on offense given that he can hit corner 3s. I d take back Abrines.
If you look at the stats, Abrines is similar to Thomas, so it’s sort of like trading Thomas the forward for Thomas the guard. I’m not sure why we would do that.
Abrines is younger (24 vs. 29) and I think a little more skilled offensively (more efficient at least).
Yeah maybe Melo will push a Thomas trade through! That’s his bruh. I would take literally anything that’s cap relief back in return.
Its weird, the differences are small but Thomas has higher two point and three point percentages and shoots more free throws, but Abrines has a higher EF% and TS%. I don’t understand how that can be. I do agree about the age, but actually we need a small forward more than we need a guard
Stats link: https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Alex+Abrines&player_id1_select=Alex+Abrines&player_id1=abrinal01&y1=2018&player_id2_hint=Lance+Thomas&player_id2_select=Lance+Thomas&y2=2018&player_id2=thomala01&idx=players
It’s the shot distribution. They are both better off shooting 3s, but Abrines shoots a lot more of them.
knox is a bit overrated…. getting rebounds.. stls and blocks are athleticism markers and he scores pretty low on all those fronts… and when you watch him play he’s basically just a jump shooter… i feel like he’s the sf version of booker…. which might turn out ok like booker has but it’s important for a sf to have lots of different skills than a sg….
hayward… george… porter… ariza… covington… leonard… all had outstanding numbers in those categories in college… and in the past.. you had durant.. melo… hill… pippen… even someone like richard jefferson or iguodala…. sf is sort of like the utility slot… they’re asked to do a lot of different things as well as match up against lots of different kinds of players and they’re usually the best athletes on the floor….
knox is intriguing but ultimately i think he’s a bit limited…. the best you could hope for is for him to be like glen rice but he’s probably like a worse version of andrew wiggins… which isn’t as nice as that might sound…
Strat, thanks. I wonder if the shot distribution difference is player decision driven or coach decision driven.
I keep praying for Phil to tweet a photo of his feet overlooking that serene Montana vista next to two other giant feet with #13 stitched on the heels.
Remember Lance played for OKC too so there’s some organizational familiarity there.
So Noah wasn’t at practice and won’t play tomorrow vs. Brooklyn.
Is this now officially the worst contract ever given out by the Knicks? $18MM to not play basketball, and it’s got 2 more years left on it.
Serious question; isn’t “not showing up to work” pretty much the only thing for which a player can get their contract voided? And isn’t that exactly what Noah is doing?
I don’t begrudge him at all for taking every penny, but the Knicks only agreed to pay him, not play him. His end of that deal is showing up.
Realistically, I guess we can hope for a buyout?
trouble with buyout is that all it gets us is a roster spot. cap consequences of that fateful Phil mistake are pretty much unchangeable short of a career ending injury.
Obviously, a buyout would be useless unless it lowered his cap hit. He’d give up some money in return for being waived, basically. IIRC the Nets did something like this with Deron Williams?
I don’t watch Gleague games, but I have been paying attention to Hicks this year in the old box scores and he certainly seems worth a look if we can dump some vets at the trade deadline. We could use a defense first big, especially if we lose O’Quinn.
If Noah does somehow end up with a buyout, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him useful to someone in 2018
Unfortunately – from CBAfaq:
Also you can’t renegotiate guaranteed salary down – only up and only under specific circumstances.
So even buying Noah out would at best give us an extra roster spot, but otherwise just save Dolan $. Cap ramifications remain unchanged.
I hope Noah lands with another team so we can see what his actual market level is. Vet’s minimum? I need another reminder of how comfortably incompetent this franchise is.
if we stretch him he would still count about 7mm a year for the next 5 years…. seeing as how we’re not really doing anything with the cap room this year i would try to hang onto him until at least next year … his expiring will at least have some value….
Stretching Noah would be dumb. It probably makes most sense to keep him and tell him to stay home, but I can see the logic behind cutting him outright and eating the dead money if he’s being that disruptive.
@24 you’re misunderstanding. the CBA allows you to mutually reduce your cap obligation in a buyout once the player clears waivers. The language means only that the post buyout guaranteed number is then the new cap hit. It’s just a question of whether Noah would take a real hit.
We need to stretch waive Noah so we can have cap room to sign more terrible free agents
It’s dumb for Noah to pull this now right before the deadline. We could’ve a. traded him (not that likely) or b. traded another big and freed up minutes for him. Now the only way he’ll play is if he’s picked up if we were to waive him, which we won’t. I doubt he wants to retire. I hope it works out for both sides bc Noah seems like a good guy.
Unsurprisingly Begley already reporting that Noah isn’t interested in giving back money
How’s it goink?
isn’t this the exact situation the lakers have with luol deng?
i know there are plenty of bad nba contracts out there – but – is there anything else like this wherein the player isn’t even on the active roster other than deng and noah?
The Noah deal was terrible from day 1, but we are making the situation much worse than it should have been and you can be sure other players are noticing.
1. Noah is not going to score like Kanter, but he’s not a revolving door on defense like Kanter either and he’s easily the best passer and screener on the team. He may even still the best C on this team if he could stay healthy long enough to get fit and show it. He would definitely be the correct backup to O’Quinn if we moved Kyle. I don’t think anyone wants to watch Kanter/Hernangomez take turns getting their asses kicked against certain matchups, but that’s what we should expect for the next 2 years if we move O’Quinn and release Noah. (which is one reason we should be moving Kanter instead of O’Quinn – along with salary)
2. If we were in “get into the playoffs” mode (and right or wrong we were), we should have used him. He probably would have gotten hurt again, but big deal. He might have played well in 15 minutes a night against appropriate matchups and then maybe we could have moved him next year or at worst going into the final year of the contract. All this did was bring it all to a head now. If we buy him out or stretch him it’s a 100% certainty this is a debacle.
3. The whole thing seems more personal than anything else. IMO, pulling him in garbage time was disgraceful. I don’t care how bad some people thought he was last year or that he had that “positive”, he’s a former elite star player that worked his ass off to get back in shape to redeem himself. You don’t pull him out in garbage time when O’Quinn is out anyway. Hornacek is lucky he didn’t get belted. You just don’t treat people like that.
hmmm i guess you’re right? that would be amazing.
so i wonder whether they are intentionally torturing Noah to see if he’ll eventually bow out.
If we waive Noah who is gonna make all those passes out of the pinch post? That’s like the number one thing you need from a center in the modern NBA.
I was in favor of stretching him (or at least considering it) but now I think we just eat that cap space for the next two years instead of stretching and having to pay 7 million for 5. In two years if we did nothing Noah, Lee and Lance would all be off the books, which is A LOT of cap space to use to upgrade/retool the roster right around the time KP will be hitting his young peak period, Frank hitting his stride and our next draft pick will have two seasons under his belt (and our 2019 draft pick will be in his second year). Plus Hardaway will still be under contract and only 28 at that point. That is when we should be “competing.”
As much as it sucks, patience with Noah is the key. Two years will pass and if we want to buy him out that is fine by me too. I’d rather wait for all that cap space to open up at once in 2 years.
I just feel like we’re keeping Kanter. I love Kyle, but he’s one of our better shots at getting a second 1st rounder, so he will likely be moved to a contender. Hernangomez could easily be moved as well, hopefully for another 1st.
I’m all for trying to get 3 firsts and letting the Kanter/Noah deals sunset a little more. Then move them as expirings.
Yeah – no way I would entertain stretch-waiving him unless those dollars were really the difference between signing an actual impact free agent.
After next season he is a gigantic expiring contract, and that will have some trade value.
We should just sit tight and take our medicine — yet another thing we shouldn’t take a shortcut to.
I love Kanter. I wish we could resign him and I know I’m in the minority but I do not see him getting 18 million or more a year on his next contract. If we could bring him back for say 12 million a year I would be very much on board for that. He is still very young and could fit our timeline to compete.
I think we gotta stop thinking one or two seasons ahead and think 3 seasons ahead. Resigning Kanter (or KQ for that matter) only seems dumb now because of Noah. But in 2 years when Noah is gone if we had Kanter and/or KQ here under good team friendly contracts we would be happy.
That’s why I think bringing this to a head now was a mistake.
If we buy him out it’s 100% we have dead cap space for 2+ years. If we stretch him (I don’t even want to think about that unless we absolutely need cap space to sign someone this offseason) it’s worse.
He came to camp in shape. He can still rebound, play defense, and has other skills. He’s not what he was. His contract sucks. But he’s not Eddy Curry. How hard would have been to use him here or there when Kanter was getting his clock cleaned on defense or in garbage time just to appease him?
If you could assure me that Kanter would be happy with 10m as the backup C, I’d be fine with keeping him. He’s not a starting C on a good team in this league. That’s why I’d prefer keeping O’Quinn. O’Quinn is happy in NY as a backup. To me, he’s the better all around player anyway. We would get him cheaper.
The only thing Knicksier than Joakim Noah receiving $72M to play 1,055 minutes is Joakim Noah being suspended for PEDs, being unable to actually play basketball, and then looking to “part ways” with the team after he has a shouting match with the inept head coach.
You really couldn’t have written a more Knicksy story than that.
George Hill trade reportedly stalled because he thinks LeBron James might leave in free agency. #Cavs #Kings
The last time Noah was a passable NBA player was 2013-2014. He has been crud ever since then. He was coming off two shitty seasons when Phil gave him that ridiculous contract and now he’s just two years older and shittier. He’s a zero on offense and he can’t move laterally anymore so he’s not even that great on defense.
He’s a sunk cost, but he should not be stretch waived. Just live with your mistake and tell him he can either sit on the bench and collect his $44M or he can do it from the comfort of his home. But for the love of all that is decent do not waive the guy and extend this horrific mistake into the 2022 season. Just eat the shit sundae for the next two years and be done.
@44 – George Hill has a no trade clause now?
I think Noah needs some humble pie, which is hard to eat when you were DPOY not that long ago.
Defensively he’s probably still ok.
Still can pass the ball.
But he’s an absolute zero on offense because he’s completely lost confidence in his shot – he used to be able to hit a baby jumper from 15 feet with some regularity – was in the 40% range from long 2 even. So he just stands out there without threatening the defense. Is afraid to drive because he’s forgotten how to shoot free throws.
he needs to completely remake that unbelievably ugly shot of his even if it takes a thousand hours in the gym this season when he’s not playing anyway. If need be he needs to go the granny rick barry free throw route. That’ll make him at least passable on offense.
Noah was 90% a certainty to play next season after O’Quinn got traded and Kanter opted opt and signed a deal in Brooklyn. It’s either the Knicks (and Jeff Hornacek) are totally out of touch with how to deal with players or Joakim Noah has an ego the size of the East River.
Frank, you’re smarter than this.
Even if this is a deliberate strategy by management to alienate Noah so he is willing to negotiate a buyout, it’s a dumb strategy. If they were trying to win, he should have played, because his limited skill set nonetheless addresses some of the team’s deficiencies. If they didn’t care about winning and just wanted to set the team up for success in a couple years, they should have communicated the situation to him and treated him with respect so he’d be a willing mentor and practice player.
Maybe they tried the latter and it didn’t work, but it doesn’t feel that way. Which leads us to this situation, where the team once again looks poorly managed. Sigh.
The best path would be to ignore him. Let him stay home. Eat the contract. Don’t stretch him, and in two years we’re clean.
Meanwhile, unless Kanter accepts something like 5 years for $12m per, tell him he’s not going to get playing time next year so he should opt out. Then sign KOQ for Lance Thomas money, because he is good and undervalued and a perfect backup big. And we’re then set at center as KP committing to mature for a total of not much more than what Noah is getting now himself.
How many minutes would Noah be able to even play before inevitably getting hurt again? He doesn’t just stink, he’s also brittle AF.
“after he has a shouting match with the inept head coach.”
I know you’re just trolling, Jowles, but at least be consistent: you have more than once argued that, by and large, coaches have no impact on W/L. So are you saying Horns is so inept that he somehow does? Seems unlikely. As several have noted, we’re at or ahead of W/L predictions for the season.
If we trade KOQ or just let him walk in the offseason, and trade Willy (which we should), then Noah will get minutes next year. Just tell him to sit tight.
2018-19 center minutes:
Whenever Kanter or Zing is hurt, he’ll get 20+ minutes.
Would New Orleans say yes to this?
Pelicans get: Kanter and Willy
Knicks get: Asik, Ajinca, 2019 unprotected pick
So because Kanter played like an All-NBA player for the first twenty games, Hornacek deserves credit?
There are different levels of impact, from the granular (e.g. time-out plays) to the macro (e.g. developing talent over time). Most importantly, coaches need to be able to identify the best players on the team and give them minutes. In today’s NBA, coaches also need to pay attention to paradigm shifts in play style — a team like the Rockets games the system by taking an inordinate number of 3PA and shots at the rim. Hornacek is either (1) unwilling to enforce changes in the offense to increase the Knicks’ position at #30 in 3PA/game, or he’s (2) unable to enforce those changes.
Either way, he’s utterly incompetent. Giving him credit for Kanter’s stellar offensive play is downright absurd, since Kanter’s dominance in the paint and on the offensive glass has nothing to with system. If anything, it’s obvious that the Knicks would play their highest-paid player since he’s healthy.
He played poorly last year because he was out of shape to start the season (injuries) and then battling hamstring, shoulder, and knee issues. However, there was a period in between various injuries that he was playing well. Admittedly, the probability is quite high that he would have gotten hurt again this year if given 15 minutes here or there, but we don’t know that.
The point being there’s a huge difference between saying it was a terrible contract to begin with (true), Jackson was foolish for giving him 4 years (true), he would have gotten hurt if we played him anyway (probably true), he stinks (not true) and thinking it’s smart:
1. to alienate him by not playing him at all and pulling him during garbage time (bad idea).
2. to buy him out (bad idea)
3. to stretch him (bad idea)
4. to allow other NBA players to see we are still dysfunctional nitwits that don’t treat players correctly (bad idea).
no respect at all for Noah at this point. I say send him to the G league, where at least we will sell another $500 in tickets a night for people to see his corpse up close. that’s all we will recover from his deal.
its not his fault the deal was offered to him. but you’ve got almost $40M of our $$ now (I know, less because he got himself suspended). Either shut your mouth and count your $$, or negotiate your way out.
Having said that, I’m literally shocked we couldn’t find him 7 minutes a night of regular playing time, especially when our starting C has among the worst +/- in the league
Kanter only played like an all-NBA player for the first 20 games because you are looking at boxscore models that aren’t valuing his contributions on offense correctly and ignoring his deficiencies on defense almost entirely.
It’s not an accident that when he got into that twitter spat with Jared Dudley, JD shut him up by telling him the entire NBA knows he’s among the worst P&R defenders in the entire league. Everyone targets him. They go small or run P&Rs at him and he’s utterly useless.
I think we should offer Noah+Thomas+Baker/McDermott for Batum+MKG.
Saves Charlotte a lot of money and gives us two legit rotation players, albeit grossly overpaid ones. I don’t care much about cap space and it fixes a lot of problems on our roster.
Reports KP wants to add veteran talent at the deadline to make a playoff push.
Don’t do it Perry (and don’t listen to Mills) !!
They should be offloading veterans at the deadline.
If you look at the actual quotes and not the headlines, they’re way less innocuous.
“Playoff experience for myself, individually, would be huge at this point in my career — the sooner, the better,” Porzingis said Monday, when asked his opinion about the Knicks’ approach at the Feb. 8 trade deadline. “And for most of the [Knicks] — most of the guys haven’t felt that playoff experience that everybody talks about — that the guys talk about that have been there. For myself, selfishly I would want to play in the playoffs but we’ll see what happens and how we can end the season.”
“I think they know I want to be in the playoffs and that’s the only thing on my mind. I’m not going to go in there and be like no, we’re tanking. There’s no reason to play,” Porzingis said with a laugh. “[Making the playoffs is] only thing I’m focused on. What I need to do on the court to play better, make my team win.”
Like, what’s he supposed to say? Dude is the face of the franchise. He got roasted in the media for saying he was tired after playing a b2b, but now when he says he wants playoff experience we’re gonna roast him again for not saying “Playoffs? Nah, I’m good. Gonna ride out this tank and hopefully lose as much as possible.”
100% agree and I personally have no issue with what KP said. I know we have had the discussion ad nauseam, but we can’t expect players and coaches to just tank games. It’s up to management to put the team in the position to lose (i.e. trade veterans for youth, give the directive to coaches to play youngsters) if the goal is to tank.
Players should always want to win. GMs should mostly want to win but selectively want to lose.
Right now, Scott Perry should want to lose.
Well, Noah had no issues signing his contract, the Knicks should have no issues enforcing it. Who cares if he wants out when he obviously has negative trade value (meaning the Knicks would have to pay for someone to get him)?
Leave him on the team and if he refuses to do what he’s asked of Marbury him until his deal is closer to expiration. Paying to move Noah at this point would be ridiculous.
What about a straight up Noah for Deng trade? At least Deng would be glued to the bench at a position of need.
Question: Is there any precedent for a guy with the amount of money Noah has left working out some kind of buy-out? I remember lots of guys with a year or less remaining, but nobody with anywhere near the kind of money we’re talking about here.
We lead the league in unnecessary chaos.
Deng has played 1 game, said he’s not interested in a buyout, case closed.
Same with Asik in NO, Leonard in POR and in a sense Mozgov in BRK (at least they get Russel for the pain?).
Noah’s glued to the bench (after being suspended 20 games) and it becomes a World’s Crisis.
I dont know why people are saying that Noah isn’t living up to his contract. From all accounts, the Knicks agreed Noah could leave the team temporarily. That’s legit. And for all we know, Noah went home so he could work on his foul shot form eight hours a day instead of being in planes and on benches. That might actually be useful.
Just tell Noah to stay home. Who cares.
Agreed. This seems like a simple solution. They weren’t playing him anyways, so what’s the difference? At least this way they could theoretically include him in a salary dump trade next year. If they cut him, they can’t even do that. And there’s always the chance that he could come back if they let him stay home for now.
Regarding Noah, what about the strategy of playing him 48 MPG in the hope that he gets injured constantly and takes a medical retirement?
I actively like Blake Griffin and I don’t get that deal for Detroit.
Proving once again that Marcus Smart is not smart:
They’re giving up one year of Tobias Harris for a player they think is better, I guess?
@74 Is SVG losing is mind?
@76 We have found our next FA signing… 🙂
Edit: Blake is signed for a ton in the next 4 years
Making Noah stay home indefinitely gives us a dead roster spot. So the question becomes which is more likely:
1. Noah is useful in a trade we make when he’s an expiring contract?
2. A G league callup or waiver wire pickup we gamble on with that 15th roster spot proves to be another case of the FO catching lightning in a bottle?
I wonder how pissed Blake is. Making $40M+ a year in LA or Detroit… which would you prefer?
The Clippers win this deal and it’s not even close. That Blake contract is a train wreck.
You could buy like half of Detroit for 40 mil
Wow, Blake and Drummond? Ehh
Blake’s locked in for what another 4-5 years? Ouch. Bradley must have really rubbed them the wrong way.
I hope the Pistons realize they need a transcendent Pick and Roll guard to even begin to replicate what Blake and DeAndre did with the Clippers. And Reggie Jackson is not the one for that type of offense.
Kind of a rough stint for SVG as GM. 3 1/2 years and all he has to show for it = Drummond, who was already there, a max contract Blake and two liabilities in no 18 pick and an overpriced Reggie Jackson. I sort of understand why Detroit did it because they were trapped in mediocrity without flexibility. I guess if or when Blake gets hurt it will be a good excuse to deal Drummond and blow it up and in the meantime hope to squeak into the bottom of the east.
I guess Jordan is probably gone too?
The Clippers are bottoming out, so unless we make some serious moves they’ll leap frog us in the lottery.
Queue up Dzanan Musa highlights.
I guess the Pistons are seeing a super weak conference and thinking that pushing in some chips right now isn’t the worst idea. I get that logic (and think it may spur a decent amount of buying in the Eastern Conference) but I don’t think Bradley+Harris out and Blake in really makes them that much better immediately. They’re also not quite good enough right now to be the team pushing in those chips I don’t think (Wizards and Bucks are two teams that make more sense to me to be making win now moves). And the back end of that Blake contract is likely to be very ugly unless the Piston’s medical staff is prepared to work some serious miracles.
Apparently the Blake to Detroit deal is done?
I guess Knicks fans should be happy we didn’t give up 2 first round picks and Frank and Willy and filler to get Blake.
(Would have made Dolan happy though.)
That’s a really good trade for the Clippers. Wow.
For the Clippers this is pretty nifty. They get an extra 1st rounder, they’re going to tank their asses off the rest of this year, they should be able to get an extra asset for Lou Williams. If Lebron wants to go to LA as bad as people say they could add him (and another big free agent if they can dump Gallo) and then resign DeAndre and Bradley and have a contender again next year. If not, they’ve started their rebuild. Getting off Blake’s money and getting an asset for him just puts them in such a better, more flexible spot.
With Detroit sort of going for it and rumored to be wanting to move Stanley Johnson, could the Knicks take a shot at him? He’s been a bust so far, but is just 21, can defend, but boy is his scoring awful. He might be worth a shot.
He’s making $3.1m at present. McD would be a $ match if SVG covets some shooting. OQ would be close in $.
Johnson would be a nice buy low option and we do have the shooters for them.
How nice is it to not be the dumbest franchise in the NBA anymore?
Johnson has one more year at $3.9m, whereas McD’s QO is like 4.5m. McD seems to have fallen a bit out of favor with Hornacek.
If they want a big, OQ for Johnson and a cheap expiring (they’ve got a couple, I think).
Could Isiah be secretly back with the Pistons?
The Kings always gave them a run for their money.
Stan Van Gundy has no idea what he’s doing. He may have gotten the best player in the deal, but what are the chances Blake plays a full season, let alone plays at a high level for that entire contract. I’m not even sure I like the fit. It’s a desperate attempt to make the playoffs this year with a team that’s going nowhere now while certainly damaging its future a bit and possibly damaging it a great deal for quite awhile. This is what true incompetence looks like.
I would vote Yes.
I would also say it’s clear that Doc Rivers doesn’t have the power in LA anymore. This is a great deal for LA. Couldn’t have been Doc.
Oh yeah, there’s no way that this was a Rivers deal. Frank’s the GM now, right? Good job by Frank then.
The actual deal seems to be slightly different from what we are discussing. From Realgm:
The Clippers don’t get a first round pick, instead they get a different one, and the Pistons also get a back up center (although, from his stats he’s not that good a back up center).
I still agree it’s a good deal for the Clippers, just not as good as was being discussed.
Was it ever reported that they were losing a first rounder?
I like what the Clippers are doing. They still have some quality pieces they can keep or that can be moved for what they want/need and they also picked up some extra picks. They can rebuild over the next couple of years without totally blowing it up and doing it will all 19 year olds.
I don’t know how that spacing works now with Blake, Drummond, and Jackson- but holy shit! If SVG can find a way…Detroit suddenly is scary. I wonder if moving Drummond or Jackson is an option now. Drummond I can see getting back a fair package for, but Jackson? Not so much- unless a team like the Spurs or Nets think they can find a suitable role for him and fit him on the roster
@93 I like McD for Johnson. Wouldn’t do O’Quinn, though. That’s too much to give up for johnson. But McD is expiring, and he fits a need for them.
SVG is not a good GM, that much is very clear, but I’ll also add that there is the extra dimension which is that he may be running out of slack there in Detroit. Mortgaging the future to try to just make the playoffs can be incredibly dumb for the organization but pretty rational for a GM who sees that he’s about to be out of a job unless he makes a splash of some sort.
Yep, that’s always the worst part of these things. That there are a lot of incentives out there for GMs to do dumb long-term moves to help themselves in the short term.
Isiah on NBATV analyzing the trade. The world is flat.
Brian, I corrected my post. It was reported the Clippers were getting a first round pick in a post above. I was saying that’s not true, they are just swapping first round picks.
You’re reading it wrong. The only 1st rounder being moved is Detroit’s to the Clippers. It’s not a swap.
It’s protected 1-4
Oh man, how hilarious would it be if that actually ended up mattering?
Talent wise it’s not that big of a deal-Avery Bradley has probably been Detroit’s worst player, and Tobias Harris (who is a fine player) is nothing special. But on the other hand, giving up a pick to let LA get out from Blake’s terrible contract is a, dare I say, Knicksian move.
Is there any chance Brice Johnson is good?
I absolutely agree with this. There are short term financial considerations also (attendance, sales, playoffs etc.. ) and it extends beyond just the GM. If Van Gundy goes, a lot of other people will be shown the door with him. It’s not easy sometimes, but this deal I don’t like at all.
I doubt that Brice amounts to much, kind of an injury prone old-school PF.
Stam, I quoted RealGM word for word. It says the Clippers get Detroits first round pick, but it also says Detroit sends them a first and a second. Here’s the quote again. Do you have another source?
Nothing about any picks going back to Detroit.
Would be funny if the Clips starting winning more with Tobias and Boban starting.
…assuming they will soon trade DeAndre.
@117 you’re reading that wrong. It doesn’t say anything about Detroit getting a pick. It says the clippers will receive a pick, and then it states that the pick they will get is in 2018
You’re quoting it correctly but reading it wrong. The last sentence is just highlighting that the first rounder going from Detroit to LA is this year’s pick (unless it’s top 4). There’s no mention anywhere in what you quoted of a pick going from LA to Detroit.
You guys are right. I read it wrong. It’s a much better deal for the Clippers than I thought.
the bad news is that there isn’t that much ammo left for them if they want to do a lee deal and i imagine they will be out of the market for a guard…..
and all the oxygen is going to be sucked up for awhile with deandre jordan potential deals….. i hope we can squeeze a deal in…. .
Holy shit, that is a terrible trade.
I just looked at Blake’s numbers — he has about as many dunks over the last four seasons as he did his rookie year. Yikes.
Didn’t take long for Jerry West to make his bones with the other L.A. team.
Dude’s a fucking octogenarian and he still has more of his marbles than the collective braintrust that’s currently occupying the executive suite at One Penn Plaza.
The angriest person in the NBA today is probably Dan Gilbert. “SO YOU MEAN WE COULDN’T TRADE KEVIN AND THE NETS PICK FOR BLAKE?”
Zeke from Cabin Creek still got it. Don’t fuck with The Logo.
Would that even improve the Cavs that much? Griffin is not much of a defender, is he?
Why couldnt dolan get jerry west instead of phil jackson….
West wouldn’t go within 100 feet of that dirtbag.
Actually my recollection is that Dolan tried to hire West to replace Jackson, but didn’t get him. From the Sporting News: “Knicks owner James Dolan was originally interested in hiring Jerry West to replace Phil Jackson as Knicks president, reports Sporting News, citing sources. Dolan asked Irving Azoff to talk with West, who ultimately decided it was not the right time to join the Knicks, according to the report. West went on to accept an advisory position with the Clippers.”
I dont doubt that…. im just so jealous that whatever west touches turns to gold as opposed to dolan….
Like what is stopping the clips from packaging jordan and tobias for the bk pick and possibly even another first…. and all of a sudden they might have 3 lotto picks in a not so bad draft….
And the cavs still might not beat the warriors but thats a pretty good team….
@133 that would be insane GMing but can Tobias Harris be traded in package with another team if the Clippers are over the cap? Harris, Bradley, and DJ would seemingly fix the Cavs defensive issues overnight.
You can tell the Logo is definitely in charge for LAC with this trade. There’s a new sheriff in town. Agree, it’s a good drsl for the Clippers and between the injuries and not enough other pieces in Detroit, the Pistons will eventually regret it.
Better deal for the Clips indeed. Rivers now has a more versatile team, but still not enough out West. I’m still wondering if this deal makes Drummond expendable though
So basically the Clippers converted an oft injured, non-allstar with an awful contract and two throw-ins for 3 rotation players and 2 picks. Got it. Detroit got fleeced.
Sorry, why am I seeing posts about Drummond/Griffin spacing questions and whether Drummond is now expendable?
Griffin takes 40% of his shots from 16+ feet. He’s not an interior player anymore. He’s basically Carmelo with a better vertical leap. He’s a mediocre scorer but puts up a lot of points. He and Drummond will be fine together.
Doc Rivers is on his way out in Los Angeles, and I hope he takes his son with him. I’ve never been a fan of Doc Rivers.
I don’t know if “fine” is the word I would use. Griffin/Drummond is a worse version of Boogie and The Brow, but Xs and Os wise there shouldn’t be any schematic issues.
To me, Blake Griffin is the exact kind of player, nevermind stats, that you can’t build a championship team around. He’s a high usage scorer but doesn’t provide a reliable enough 3 point shot and isn’t a center, so he compromises spacing. On top of that, he’s best with the ball in his hand so he minimizes value of your ball handling point guard. He was the third best player on the Clippers and they were always pretenders. He’s supposed to lead the Pistons to what exactly; 46 win seasons?
The more I think about this trade, the less sense it makes for me. Who is even the starting lineup for the Pistons now?
Ish Smith (Reggie Jackson when he gets healthy)
Luke Kennard? Or Langston Galloway?
Stanley Johnson? (Or Tolliver playing out of position?)
Then their bench is either Johnson or Tolliver, Kennard or Galloway, Ish Smith once Jackson is healthy, Reggie Bullock and Dwight Buycks.
It’s not just me, right? That team is not very good, right?
I kind of almost prefer the Knicks’ roster to this one, and Drummond and Griffin are better than any current Knick (although hopefully KP ends up better).
Drummond is All-NBA and Griffin isn’t. Davis is All-NBA and Cousins isn’t. Pretty similar.
Yes, they had trouble at the guard positions, but they just swapped their forwards (and throw Bradley, Marjanovic and a 1st for good measure). Bradley was terrible for them, and they relied on him starting the season, and that compounded the problem at PG.
I like Griffin, and he can distribute the ball, but I dont see that solving Detroits problems.
Jowles, IMO Blake & Drummond make a bad combo on defense. And as far as spacing is concerned- I wasn’t just thinking of those 2. In fact, I specifically mentioned Jackson. If Jackson were a better shooter, I wouldn’t wonder about it. Offensively, Blake and Drummond are good passers at their positions so I think they will be fine on that end. SVG finally has some firepower. Maybe Kennard finally wrestles the starting 2 away and helps once Jackson gets back. Logically, Jackson is the most expendable- but you get a better return by moving Drummond. Detroit now has a building block on offense in Blake, so I would think they would want to cash in on Drummond since they won’t get a good return on Jackson. It’s not like they’re going far in the postseason this year with or without Blake.
The one thing that you have to give SVG is that at least he nabbed a star player. It wasn’t really good for the team on the court, but it probably does help them off the court (and thus, keeps him more likely to keep his job). Plus, with the East the way it is, Griffin likely will have a good chance at making the All Star team going forward.
It’s just a case of seeing from the outside what the Knicks have done for more than a decade. This is an all-in on a pocket pair of fours because SVG’s pot is getting thinner by the minute.
And West, boy, that guy is the real sh*t. He turned Paul (who wanted to leave) and Griffin (who was signed into an awful contract) into a bunch of very serviceable pieces and picks. Kudos.
I wonder if the Clips would be interested in any of our flotsam and jetsam.