2017-18 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Bulls

I know that this is the gambler’s fallacy. I know it.

But come on, they just can’t lose to this Bulls team AGAIN, right? Right?

Say right.

Let’s go, Knicks!

148 replies on “2017-18 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Bulls”

From the GothamSN article Strat linked to:

New York won’t trade both Lee and Thomas at this year’s deadline because of leadership. The Knicks won’t and shouldn’t trade their two co-captains at the same time.

Can you imagine where the Knicks would be without the leadership of Courtney Lee and Lance Thomas? They have leadershipped the hell out of this team. It’s the most leader-tastic team I’ve ever seen.

That’s what I always think about when I look at this season and last season – “Wow, Courtney Lee and Lance Thomas have been clearly leading their asses off with this team.”

I’ve said many times that I don’t trust Perry / Mills… this shows a bit why.

I’m so glad we have amazing veteran leadership on our 30 win team!

3PT Shooting at the first timeout:

Bulls 3-6
Knicks 0-0

And 4 turnovers…

Maddening, absolutely maddening…

Can somebody please hook Frank up with Steph Curry’s ballhandling coach in North Carolina. Or at least tie his right hand to his body so he can learn how to drive with his left? I love the kid but he needs to work on that yesterday.

We’ve gotta be able to get a first for Beasley

Well, if this sorry excuse for a franchise really wants to win now, we might as well just start Beasley and bring KP off the bench instead of trading him.

It’s only my impression or is KP regressing every game?
His energy level seems really low.

Super Beas is officially our first offensive option, even with Porzingis on the field…
… and that’s not a good thing for our appointed “Superstar”.

Beasley is clearly our best scoring option and imo has been our best player for awhile now. If it wasn’t for Porzingis’s defense he would be almost Bargnani bad.

Beasley really has been formidable. Good for him. It’s always fun to watch guys legitimately turn their careers around, even if it only lasts a season. He’s just a flat out good offensive player right now.

Phil was clearly not out of his mind when he was considering trading KP and replacing him with Markkanen. This kid can play, is better than KP was as a rookie, and even seems to get the best of KP now.

If the Knicks offer KP for Markkanen straight up, I don’t think Chicago accepts it.

Markannen hasn’t been better than rookie KP. He’s just brought it every Knicks game and that’s all of what most of us see. The kid can shoot but is an AWFUL defender. He’s new era Ryan Anderson (which isn’t meant to be negative)

The knock on LM was he couldn’t rebound. He rebounds better than KP.

I don’t want to blow this game out of proportion but he seems like he’s already superior to KP on offense.

Markannen hasn’t been better than rookie KP. He’s just brought it every Knicks game and that’s all of what most of us see.

Markannen is better than KP as a rookie. KP is longer and has a much bigger impact defensively (which counts a lot), but Markannen is stronger, mentally and physically tougher, a better rebounder, and his shot selection is better.

Actually the real knock on LM was that he’d be a terrible defender, which so far he has, both all season and tonight. But he’s been much better on offense as a rookie than most people expected. still, both sides count.

Check the WS48 and BPM:


Kristaps was and is better. There’s a hard ceiling on Markannens productivity if he continues to average .5 blocks a game and play no defense. KP has been horrid tonight but let’s not get ahead of ourselves just because Lauri is a Knick killer

He’s actually not a better rebounder than KP was as a rookie (and they both played with mr. box out Rolo!). You’re just typing things.

Chicago is in a pretty good place. They have some good young pieces, they will get something for Mirotic, and LaVine isn’t even back yet. Plus they have some vets on reasonable contracts and can move them if something good comes up.

Kristaps should take a look at Lauris shot chart though, I hate KPs offensive game so far

I’m just talking offensively. And it’s not just this game. LM has a better TS%. He also shoots 2 more 3PA/36. If he had KP’s absurdly high USG he’d blow him away.

Someone referenced Bargs. A few days ago I watched a Bargnani highlight video from whateve team he was on in Europe for the 16-17 season. Dont know about competition and to b fair to KP it was only like 3 minutes long…. but …offensively, They were basically carbon copies and dare I say bargnani looked quicker, even at an advanced age. Just eye testing. I have no idea what made me research bargs highlights… I give KP the benefit of the doubt EXCEPT when he takes the horrific shots he’s been taking. When he takes a bad shot , what’s even worse is how NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE they ever are. He cannot take any contact… and he doesn’t love passing out of shitty situations. Sort of a shame

KP tonight has moved from being a little too shot happy and slipping too many (every) screen to actually sulking a bit when he doesn’t get the ball. Not ideal.

@25 dude he’s a better rebounder than KP in year 3. Per game, per 36, DRB%, TRB%… LM is better in every category. He’s not great, but he’s better

O’Quinn does some ridiculously stupid things.

Frank is pretty terrible on O. I wouldn’t mind if he could just make some wide open jumpers but I really hope he works on his shooting this summer.

Gonna lose to these clowns again. We just play, to simply play, too much. I dunno if we lose focus are we just aren’t bringing it. Like we lack purpose from time to time. It’s like the purpose is to try and get stops and to try and score points. But it’s not necessarily to win the game. If that makes sense. I dunno

We could win this game in the end but this is still ridicolous.
At home, a decent team with a real “star” must beat this team by 15.
KP moves are really weak, I don’t know if it’s effort or real lack of stenght…

I’m extremely low on the Knicks future. Our “star” is a league average chucker while the other star bigs of his age are posting top 10-20 player numbers. Frank is raw but promising but isn’t gonna be the guy, and our best rookie since Gallinari is actually just languishing on the bench, racking up dnp cds. That’s our youth movement and it sucks.

He’s actually not a better rebounder than KP was as a rookie (and they both played with mr. box out Rolo!). You’re just typing things.

I wasn’t clear.

1. He’s a better rookie in several ways.
2. He’s a better rounder in general.

No one cares about blocks when the other team gets the ball right back and out hustles ur ass. Your weak side blocks are bull shit buddy. Yea I’m talking to you KP. Guards get weak side blocks

Nwaba has a career in the NBA as a poor man’s Tony Allen.

Another stupid tech…

Markkanen flies right around KP. I think it’s official though .. past few weeks confirming KP is a freak of a role player. But that’s about it. Clyde is disgusted

If Burke does eventually sign I wouldn’t be surprised if he takes minutes away from Frank instead of Jack.

What are you guys worrying about? Perhaps Jack, Lee, and Beasley will lead the Knicks to a win down the stretch. Think about that.


Bargnani’s weaknesses were rebounding, he wasn’t a particularly efficient scorer, he was often injured, and he wasn’t really strong/tough mentally or physically. KP is better on D and a better rebounder, but they are similar in some ways. Of course, Bargnani’s failures accelerated as he aged. KP is only 22 and may get stronger and a lot better. But on his bad nights when I am very frustrated with his play (which is practically every night now) he’s a rich man’s Bargnani.

This is the game that has led me to acknowledge they must tank

This is the game that made me realize it’s not up to them anymore. They’re just going to lose a lot of games whether they want to or not.

Need this L to make up for some of those surprise early Ws

You’re just ignoring the rolo factor; he is a unique guy who boxes out and doesn’t steal gimmes from teammates. just like rookie KP it helps Lauri. He gets only 6.6 reb/36 when he plays without rolo.

We may win on the backs of Beasley and Jack. This is not a good time to be a Knicks fan.

So happy that we might win this game off the backs of future longtime Knicks pieces Jarrett Jack and Michael Beasley

If you told 2008 me that Beasley would be a Knick and be the best player of our team in 2018 I guess I would be excited.

KP is a VERY low IQ player.

He is certainly a rich mans bargs on bad nights. Thats just too much similarity for me. And now KP just drops it out of bounds because KP can’t take ANY CONTACT!

Do we have any plays on offense? It’s literally like Melo never left the team. Maybe he wasn’t hijacking the offense and that was what he was being demanded to do all along. lol

Here’s the thing about the tank IMO. The Knicks are so awful at player development that it doesn’t matter. They get players with potential like KP, Frank, whomever. It doesn’t matter.

I can get behind the Beasley redemption season were having. If we’re gonna win , it’s a silver lining.

Elite defense from KP tho.

Dunn actually wanted the switch, and then when he got it you could see he was like “what the fuck am I gonna do now?”

And that game saving block was sweet.

We’ll need to get the ball to KP on offense in iso so he can clutch this much needed L.

“Sorry, but any kind of political entreaty from a person who holds Alan Dershowitz’s pocket comes with an extra grain of salt.

Lavar Ball is spouting armchair commentary about not seeing enough high-fives on the court, and Kerr and Popovich are talking about the President of the United States’ blatant disregard for the Constitution and increasingly-apparent collusion with a hostile foreign government. Care to figure out the difference in cultural importance, or should I wear my Dersh mask so you unplug from Fox News long enough to think with your fucking brain?”

This bullshit can’t stand.
1) Dershowitz is a true blue civil libertarian, regardless of the principals involved. It seems like many only care about the boot of the state being on your neck when that boot is on the neck of someone you agree with politically.
2) It is beyond hilarious to hear progressives pretend to care about the Constitution. Progressives would abolish the 1st and 2nd amendments, just to name 2, in a heartbeat if they could.
3. No matter what appears in your fevored dreams, the idea that Trump colluded with the Russians to have them hack the DNC emails, which showed that the DNC colluded with hillary to deny any chance Bernie had, and that is why Trump won, is pure derangement.
4. “Fox news”. There is one network that parrots the Republican talking points, while every other network, major newspaper, Hollywood and the Education industry parrots the Democrat party line, and progressives just hate that fox news exists!
Signed, a libertarian who will never get who he wants elected because most people want free shit

To add insult to injury, LP/nba.com stream has been shitty for 10 minutes now. Lots of pauses to buffer, etc.

Kp slowly solidifying himself as a game loser. His first instinct is to rush a long two and or draw contact … get smart dude.

Phil Jackson’s trade for Rose and subsequent signing of Noah has set this franchise back years.

Does Hornacek know you can run plays for him before the end of games too?

Despite the triple double Jack is still awful, although he’s Magic Johnson compared to Frank.

I’m so glad the play of vets Jack, Lee, Beasley, and Oquinn, who played the last three hours of the game, and will be a huge part of this team in 5 yrs, contributed so much to this win/loss.

I’m very much off the KP train till he learns when its the time and place to shoot and pass.

I think no other team ever find so many woeful, pathetic, wretched, miserable ways to lose games that our beloved Knicks… And I’m not talking about only this year.

No matter if we tank (we don’t need to) no matter if we ever get good pick, for some reason we’re screwed forever.

If we didn’t have those vets, we’d have someone like Doncic this offseason. Fucking team.

Eh Markennen looked good. The fucking Knicks and KP did not. Why no subs in OT?

Horny lost me man


We are operating in an environment where some people are so consumed with hate they are no longer biased because of what agenda based news they read & watch, what their ideal model of the world might be due to education or life experience etc… They are suffering from a level cognitive bias that borders on delusion. In fact, adding the word “bordering” may be too kind. To me, Dershowitz is a rational voice in a sea of utter lunacy. You can find others on both sides, but they are few and far between. Any attack on him because he happens to intellectually disagree with many of the left (despite being a life long democrat and laying out a well reasoned case) is the perfect example of the kind of hate induced bias I am talking about.

I listen to expert views on economics, domestic, and foreign policy from people all over the political map. It’s important to me for monetary reasons. But quite frankly, imo Kerr is a blowhard that knows less about some of the issues he comments on than I do. He wants his views aired just like everyone else. He’s passionate about them. But it’s comical for him to be so upset about some nitwit like Ball criticizing Walton given that he has no expertise on coaching, but not recognize that he has no expertise on many of things ESPN gives him a soapbox for. You can’t have it both ways. Some fans enjoy Ball. That’s why ESPN covers him. Most of the NBA and its fans lean left. So when Kerr and Popovich are spouting their often misinformed nonsense it’s popular also.

IMHO, we’d all be netter off if people stuck to their areas of expertise and the media only covered expert commentary.

Yep, take Lee, Beasley and Kanter off this team, and we’re probably a bottom three team. There’s still a chance, too. Despite all the hype about tanking teams, it looks like there won’t be any teams in the teens in wins this year. 538 projects the worst record to belong to the Kings at 25-57. If the team decided to move guys with no future on the team, we would probably win around 27 or 28 games and end up at worse picking around 7th, which gives you about 5x better odds of moving up in the draft than if you finish around 12th, which is where we seem to be headed.

Trade KP, trade whoever. This whole roster is ass and this team is a bore. KP ain’t no max player, and a smart organization would cash him in.

I’m not excited about a single player on the team. The ship be sinkin’.

If the team decided to move guys with no future on the team, we would probably win around 27 or 28 games

Got to keep at least one of Lee and Lance, though, to keep the great leadership of this team intact. Can’t mess with success.

I have absolutely no doubt that I will be cursing these early wins very very often come april.

But hey, at least we’re building a winning culture full of veteran leadership! I guess that makes up for not getting Doncic or Trae Young.

I still think KP could be max worthy even if he’s never a top 5 player. He’s just not a go-to scorer. He should play the role of finisher either from 3 or at the rim while contributing great help defense.

If we didn’t have those vets, we’d have someone like Doncic this offseason. Fucking team.

Beasley’s definitely added a couple of wins but the other vets are probably helping the tank.

The signing that really cost us a top 5 pick is Hardaway.

Got to keep at least one of Lee and Lance, though, to keep the great leadership of this team intact. Can’t mess with success.

Yep, a rebuilding team should always be dedicating at least half its cap space to players with no room to grow. Between Lance, Noah and Lee, we’re about $5m short. How many picks do you think the Lakers would want for Luol Deng?

I still think KP could be max worthy even if he’s never a top 5 player. He’s just not a go-to scorer. He should play the role of finisher either from 3 or at the rim while contributing great help defense.

I’m still down with KP. He’s not as good as we’d like, but he is still a good player. His defense has been very good.

Adding insult to injury, we’ve lost 3 games to the Bulls and we have their second round pick from the Melo trade. Season previews gave us the 31st pick, as of now it’s the 38th…

Incredibly, reverse those three games (we missed the last shot in all three!) and we’re over .500, 7th in the East…

It doesn’t really matter much other than Porzingis has been disappointing.

If we were winning these games and in a great position to get into the playoffs, that would mean our young players were playing well and about to get valuable experience that would help their development.

As it is, KP is disappointing, Frank has stalled the last few games, Hardaway has been hurt, and Willy has been buried behind Kanter. So now we’ll probably get a slightly better pick, but it won’t move the statistical needle much because we aren’t a bottom 5 team. (We’ll also pay a little more for that “theoretically” better player that could turn out to be worse).

Personally, I’d WAY prefer that KP was playing at an all-star level, Frank was breaking out, Willy won the starting job and was defending better, THJ was earning his contract, we earned a trip to the playoffs and got a slightly worse pick, than coming to grips with the fact that our kids (especially KP) are not as good as hoped.

I’m glad most are coming around to my way of thinking re: “tanking”.
Waiting until February to “see what we have” before going into tank mode when anyone with any sense could see how dysfunctional a team with no pgs is, was just plain shortsighted. All of those wins O’QUINN, Lee and the Bease gave us cost us the chance to land a real difference maker. Short term thinking is what has gotten us to this point. Long term thinking is for closers, and we don’t have any closers running this joke of a team.

It would help the young players if the Knicks actually had a decent coaching staff that was good at player development but alas they have an awful coaching staff to go along with an awful front office and even more awful ownership. As Joe Girardi loves to say, “It’s not what you want.”


Well, anyone would prefer that scenario to be happening. Its just about how likely that scenario was to actually happen (not very likely).

I would love nothing more than to see a young Knicks team grinding its way to the playoffs, but now we have a not young roster that sucks and a worst position in terms of at least having more hope of finding talent in the near future.

To see so called liberals turning on Dershowitz is the final straw. Between that, their lack of regard for the first amendment, and support for Antifa, their masks have completely fallen away and their true authoritarian natures have been exposed.


Kurt Rambis just needs another 2 or 3 months with KP and Co. He’s Michelangelo and this team is his Sistine Chapel. Just wait.

The funny thing about KP is that the ability to dominate games is clearly there. He just lacks the strength to consistently impact games on the offensive end. He needs to figure out a way to increase his strength and keep on the weight because he’s our only hope. Maybe he really does need a TH2 level guy on the wings to balance the attack.

I wasn’t sold on Markennen, but he looks better than KP offensively and on the boards, and that makes me sad.


I thought it was quite likely KP was going to break out this season and become a legit all star. I think his poor play after the 10th game or so was the lower probability outcome. Maybe I should have considered the fact that Phil said he was not ready to be the #1 option.

People can say all they want about Phil. I don’t care how crazy a pot smoking hippie he is or how poorly he related to the players and media. He’s already forgotten more about basketball than the cumulative knowledge of everyone on this forum. He never really discussed the reasons he thought that, but most likely he knew he wasn’t ready physically because he’s not strong enough to do a lot of the things he needs to do to be a top player (on top of the poor decision making). You can visually see that Markkanen is more physically ready despite being 20 years old. Live and learn.


As libertarians we can see the flaws of establishment republicans and democrats better than they can see them. What we have to do better (at least I do) is get better as seeing through the flaws of libertarians. I think I’m getting better. I sometimes even disagree with Ron Paul. 🙂

Let’s chill on KP. So he’s not Wilt Chamberlain. He was still our best starter tonight. He needs to shoot more threes. LM took 22 shots and 15 were threes! If KP could just do that, cut down on the turnovers, and keep up his defense, that’s a very good and unique starter. But he’ll never be an offensive focus like Lebron, Wade, Jimmy Butler, or James Harden. And he won’t be a traditional big like prime Dwight or Drummond. Aside from just learning the game better, his value will depend on his three-point shooting.

Lost in all this is that KP was 0-4 from the FT Line or we never get to double OT.


The problem is that teams know KP is a serious threat from 3 if left alone. So they try to take it away or contest his shots. They don’t give him as many good looks as he used to get. Maybe they can do a better job of creating good looks for him, but they also have to do a better job of getting him easy baskets inside until he gets stronger. He shoots massively too many mid range shots and even among those they are often low quality mid range shots. If I wasn’t a Knicks fan I’d be laughing.

I’m amazed by how fast people here turned on KP. Of course his shot-selection is very bad right now, but aren’t those saying he’s Bargnani the same who recognize the Knicks have the worst backcourt in the league?

I’ll wait until I see Porzingis play with a good point guard, who can get him the ball in better position to score, or maybe one who can penetrate and spread the floor for him. Before that I won’t say a word about trading him for Markkanen.

Plus: please #FireRambis and people responsible for player development.

Libertarians disagree all the time. Immigration and abortion are just 2 areas of major contention.
But the basis principles of the NAP and ownership of your body and property are what binds us.

Let’s not pretend that Phil tried to trade Zing because he had a brilliant insight into Zing’s future. He did it because Porzingis “disrespected” him by skipping the exit meeting. That’s it.

Phil was not playing 4-dimensional chess. He did not have a master plan. He was an arrogant jerkoff who had no idea how to build a team.


I’m sorry, I just can’t give him the no Point Guard pass anymore. Does having the worst guard rotation in the league only affect him on the entire team?

Kanter, O’Quinn, McDermott and Lee all are having career high ts% numbers for the season, and they also play with Jack, Ntilikina and Baker. Beasley has his second best ts% season so far, only worse than last year (when he played with PG virtuosos Dellavedova and Brogdon).

So not having a good Point Guard affects only Porzingis out of an entire roster of people incapable of creating their own shots?


I agree. Having a better PG and getting THJ back in the lineup will take some pressure off him and help, but I doubt it’s the difference between what he’s doing now and being a top notch player.

I’m down on KP, but I think he’s a good player and likely to get better.

I have all the patience in the world with skills and physical development. I haven’t said a bad word about Frank yet even though he was terrible tonight. I don’t have patience with stupid shot selection. We suffered for years watching Melo hold the ball, go into isolation mode, and take long 2s and other bad shots. We finally moved on from Melo and KP is playing just like him.

Let’s not pretend that Phil tried to trade Zing because he had a brilliant insight into Zing’s future. He did it because Porzingis “disrespected” him by skipping the exit meeting. That’s it.

That was almost certainly a factor, but there were other reasons.

If you look at everything Jackson and Rosen said about KP, you’d get the impression they thought he was going to be a perennial all star caliber player, but they were not entirely sold on him because of his body, size, core, and tendency to get injured.

He’s already forgotten more about basketball than the cumulative knowledge of everyone on this forum.

That’s reub’s line. It’s not a particularly persuasive line.

It doesn’t really matter how much Phil has forgotten about basketball. He proved to be a catastrophic failure when it came to putting a team together. He thought it was a good idea to trade for Derrick Rose. He also thought it was a good idea to sign Joakim Noah to a long-term contract. Most of the people here who know what they are talking about knew that both of those ideas were horrible ideas, and howled in pain the moment those moves were announced.

It really doesn’t matter how much the guy knows. He made shitty moves anyway, because he is an egomaniac who thought he could turn Carmelo Anthony, Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah into some sort of title-contending “Big 3” by teaching those guys the oh-so-magical ways of his preferred system of playing the game. He may know a lot about the game, but he doesn’t know shit about his own limitations. Phil Jackson as GM was the epitome of the Peter Principle. He got promoted to a job he was unqualified for. Great coach, terrible GM.

Our boy Jokic may have had the worst game ever for a center. 4 of 21 Holy shit

I remember a game in the 1993-94 against the Sonics where Ewing shot 6 for almost 30 in a game.

You’d be surprised at some of the crazy one-game totals you can see with some of the all-time greats!

I’m still down with KP. He’s not as good as we’d like, but he is still a good player. His defense has been very good.

KP’s big problem is conditioning. You don’t figure that out mid-season. They still might sort it out, there’s clearly not an easy answer. If not he’ll probably be ass. But if they do..


I’m not going to argue this again. Phil had his flaws and made mistakes (Noah for sure).

I think most people are not accounting for the complexities of running a basketball team with financial considerations and underrate the fact that cap space is an asset. If cap space is managed well it buys you time and flexibility in adding players and subtracting players while you are looking for long term solutions. They are also conveniently ignoring where we would be now if we had those 2 first round picks and how it might have changed strategy and willingness of good free agents to play here.

Most people are playing fantasy sports.

I’m not going to argue this again.

You say….as you continuously argue it again.

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