Knicks Morning News (2017.10.23)

  • [NY Newsday] Kristaps Porzingis says Willy Hernangomez deserves to play more
    (Sunday, October 22, 2017 7:29:04 PM)

    GREENBURGH, N.Y. — A little more than a month ago, Willy Hernangomez appeared to be one of the Knicks’ most promising young stars.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis believes ‘frustrated’ Hernangomez ‘deserves’ more playing time
    (Sunday, October 22, 2017 7:56:23 PM)

    Knicks forward Kristaps Porzingis said he believes teammate Willy Hernangomez “deserves” more playing time after the center was limited to just four minutes in Thursday’s season-opener and a healthy scratch in Saturday’s loss to the Detroit Pistons.

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis hatches new health plan after secret Spain tests
    (Sunday, October 22, 2017 12:56:44 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis believes he’s found a new formula to stay healthy this season and not hit the wall – as he did late in his first two seasons. Porzingis, who is averaging 32 points per game through the first two contests, revealed he underwent a battery of tests by doctors in Spain over the summer…

  • [NYPost] Porzingis: I think Hernangomez ‘deserves’ to play
    (Sunday, October 22, 2017 10:37:59 AM)

    Although he didn’t take issue with Jeff Hornacek, Kristaps Porzingis said Willy Hernangomez “deserves’’ to be on the floor. Now he’s trying lift his spirits, acknowledging his friend is “frustrated.” Hernangomez, the Knicks young center who has been called a building block by management, has moved out of the rotation, earning a DNP in the…

  • [NYDN] Kristaps Porzingis encouraging frustrated Willy Hernangomez
    (Sunday, October 22, 2017 12:13:50 PM)

    Nobody is closer to Willy Hernangomez on the Knicks than Kristaps Porzingis, and he’s trying to encourage his friend through frustration.

  • [NYDN] Kristaps Porzingis avoiding ‘overtraining’ to remain healthy
    (Sunday, October 22, 2017 10:54:01 AM)

    Kristaps Porzingis started off strong his first two seasons, but he faded late, largely because of fatigue or physical ailments.

  • 156 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.10.23)”

    Wierd that the Pels cut Jordan Crawford. He’s been playing pretty well, at least on offense. I’d rather have him than Beas.

    For those that understand exercise science, KP’s revelation about previously overtraining explains an awful lot about his health challenges as well as the statistical dropoff after crushing last season’s first 20 games. It also explains why the year-to-year stats didn’t really improve.

    For those that doubt the deleterious effects of overtraining, go ahead and Goggle it. It’s gets serious before long.

    That he is (hopefully) not in that state lends me some degree of hope.

    So this “Willy Hernangomez deserves to play more” headlines from KP is Perry’s first crisis management test. Competent GM would get KP to explain in no uncertain terms that he knows the coach is responsible for minute allocation, and he fully trusts Horney’s judgement.
    I’m curious to see if he (Perry) can get it done.

    The actual quotes in the “Willy needs to play” article aren’t bad. The crisis isn’t even there.

    Yeah, the headline is misleading. KP basically said Willy is good enough to be playing for this team but we have a logjam at his position and my advice to him was to play so well that coach can’t take you out of the game. Really nothing.

    KP was also asked about it and gave an answer. It’s not like he went miles out of his way to make a statement that Hernangomez should be starting or something, or went full Bledsoe or anything. Everybody knows they’re friends and KP thinks highly of him. Just New York media.

    We need to trade O’Quinn fast – he could cost us a couple of draft spots. I can’t believe there isn’t a contender (hello OKC, hello Hou) that wouldn’t love to him for 15 mins a game at his salary.

    Re: Bledsoe, as a pro-tanker, I say hell no.
    But….., if I wanted wins, he’s so much better than what we have that he’d make us one more decent deal away (from a team construction standpoint) from 35 win territory, and a possible playoff berth. ER’s thought of Kanter for Bledsoe makes sense if Phoenix is just looking to dump him, as Kanter helps their tank, plus Kanter might be able to show Alex Len a couple of moves.

    we should aim to get decent players… like bledsoe… after this season… the top of the draft is pretty stacked and getting one of those guys will go a long way towards our rebuild….

    as it stands.. getting a top 4-5 pick should be a top priority…

    Also, does Bledsoe want out because the team is tanking and he wants to join a competitive team, or just because the Suns are completely dysfunctional? Because well, if it’s the first one, I doubt he’d be so much more motivated to play well in NY (maybe in the second case as well).

    He doesn’t get to choose, I know, but seems like a waste to trade for a dude that wants to play in the playoffs when the Knicks would barely contend to be there with him anyway.

    Kyle and Kuz for Frye and Cleveland’s 1st. Get er done.
    Or maybe the Bucks would do a swap for Jabari?

    Houston picking up Briante Weber pisses me off. He’s a terror defensively – basically Patrick Beverly without the 3 pt shot, and he’s free. This is the kind of guy (like Seth Curry cough cough cough, or Kay Felder) that we should be giving a chance to.

    re: KP and Willy we have this quote

    “He deserves it,” Porzingis told the New York Post’s Marc Berman. “But we have a lot of big guys on the floor and I understand everybody’s fighting for those minutes. And not everybody is going to get what they deserve.”

    It’s as understanding of the situation as it could get.

    Some “too early” reactions to the season so far, basically coming down to Danny Ainge looking pretty smart. Fultz is really struggling in Philly, Josh Jackson seems to have already checked out, Jayson Tatum looks pretty damn polished, and the Nets are better than people thought, making that 2018 pick that Cleveland has less juicy.

    Re: KP – I love the dude but he’s a little bit of a humblebragger. But hey, he can humblebrag all he wants if he has a TS of 60 and usage of 35 the rest of the year.

    Just imagine if we had a point guard that could actually get him easier shots.

    Just imagine if we had a point guard that could actually get him easier shots.

    Like Rubio? Thanks Phil!

    Anyone else adding Kevin Knox to the top prospects list? He looks like a slighty shorter version of Giannis.

    knox is interesting… him going to kentucky was a good move… but he might be more of a 4 …

    rui hachimura is one i’d keep an eye on.. altho nbadraft.net has him pretty high… pretty raw but had the most impressive rate stats of the returning prospects… microscopic minutes load but his u19 numbers were identical… he has the highest chance of breaking into the top 5…

    Fultz is playing through a shoulder injury, which Brett Brown flatly said in preseason was affecting his shot and which Fultz himself virtually admitted to Kevin O’Connor as well. He shouldn’t even be on the floor until he’s physically right, which you’d think the Sixers would be cool with given their experiences with Noel, Embiid and Simmons.

    I’d love to see more of the Baker/TH2/McD/O’Quinn/KP lineup. I just hate Kanter’s game.

    I blame this whole Hernangomez “playing time” fiasco on Phil. If Phil wouldn’t have drafted him, we wouldn’t have this problem. #nevermind

    People seem to be overvaluing the Knicks assets. Phoenix would want more and/or younger and better players than KOQ and Lee for Bledsoe. They should just stick to the major tank this year, and with that atrocious back court it should be easier. Top 3 -4 pick is what they should be shooting for.

    Watched the end of the Pels Lakers game and couldn’t believe they weren’t getting the ball to AD down the stretch. He was posting up and it’s like they were freezing him out or something. Very weird. Also Lonzo Ball better start making some shots if he wants to effective. He got a few good looks and missed them all.

    Phoenix should be trying like mad to dump Booker while people still think he’s good. I guess maybe you see if the new coaching can change anything but look to move him at the deadline if he stays the same.

    anyone see melo pouting on the scorers table after wiggings hit the game winner, what a cry baby

    yeah hard to believe that Fultz is on the floor with his shoulder thing, if there is indeed a shoulder thing.

    also hard to believe that Phil probably was willing to trade KP for Booker + Josh Jackson

    @2

    As someone who overtrained throughout his 20s, I can also say that KPs explanation makes lots of sense. Your entire body begins to feel a mental and physical crash that is very difficult to explain. Testosterone decreases and everything slows down. Sometimes its hard to recognize that doing less, and giving the body time to heal itself more, is going to make you stronger. KPs calorie/weight problem probably only exacerbated that problem since he doesn’t have many fat reserves.

    @24

    They won’t trade Booker. He’s the headline guy in this extremely shitty rebuild they’ve been executing under McDonough. How that guy got a fucking extension this summer given his shitty performance since fluking a 48 win season when he was trying to tank that year is beyond me.

    also hard to believe that Phil probably was willing to trade KP for Booker + Josh Jackson

    Given the reliability of the media I wouldn’t trust anything like that. I still think discussions about KP never got past a phone call to Phil, Phil asking for something ridiculous, and then a click on the other side.

    I also think it’s way too early judge KP or Jackson based on what they’ve done this season.

    KP had a TS% approaching 60% and a 3P% around 40% for about a month or so last year before the wheels fell off. His usage and PPG are up now because Melo and Rose are gone, but he looked great for awhile last year too. Let’s pray it lasts this time. The rest of the team looks so bad I’d like to think we have at least 1 solid starting piece (and of course perhaps a centerpiece).

    Well this’ll be interesting — Eric Bledsoe was just sent home Marbury/Josh Smith-style.

    I don’t think the Knicks will be in the market for Bledsoe only because I imagine it’ll be too expensive, but one could imagine the Suns might want some good vets in there to turn around that locker room. Tyson has already shown he’s not a leader when things are going badly, but Ryan McDonough, can we interest you in Courtney Lee? Joakim Noah?

    Why are we still talking about Melo? I was hoping we were done with him.

    Why not?

    We still talk (and bitch) about Chandler, Grant and Derrick Rose, right?

    @32

    I don’t particularly want to talk about ANY of them. In fact, I hope to forget about their existence.

    I kinda sorta can imagine the Knicks being one of the teams poking around Bledsoe given how young Ntilikina is and Hornacek’s experience with Bledsoe. Wonder whether Jeff liked him or not.

    Even if it doesn’t work out here, Bledsoe is probably still an asset on that contract and could be tradeable again at the deadline or in the offseason.

    I don’t particularly want to talk about ANY of them. In fact, I hope to forget about their existence.

    Melo was a very polarizing player for seven years and is now on a situation where many said he would thrive.

    I don’t want to talk about him too, but I think is fair to say that this topic won’t die until the next few years.

    @34 I forgot that Horny coached Bledsoe. They were a good team that last year also.

    I’m kind of torn on Bledsoe, I know we’re supposed to want to lose every game, but it would be so damn refreshing to watch this team led by a competent PG.

    Of course, I wouldn’t give up anything more than Kanter for him.

    Frank out tomorrow. “Might” play Friday. FFS, I was indestructible when I was 19. I just don’t get this.

    @IanBegley
    The Knicks are among the teams who have reached out to Phoenix recently about trading for guard Eric Bledsoe, per league sources.

    This Bledsoe situation terrifies me. I hope Willy is still on the team in a week.

    As much as we’re all for a tankathon, getting a competent player like Bledsoe to convince KP to stick around/stay positive might not be a terrible idea. But I doubt we have anything they want that we’d give up. We aren’t even allowed to trade Ron or TH2 yet.

    @IanBegley
    The Knicks are among the teams who have reached out to Phoenix recently about trading for guard Eric Bledsoe, per league sources.

    Just no. Please no.

    @39 yeah that would be terrible, and I would push for that if I was Phoenix. “Hey, you’re not even playing him!”

    Bledsoe would be good in NY. He’s the type of player I would try to add to the roster. He’ll make the team better. He’s just 27 and a buy-low candidate.

    On the flip side, he could ruin the tank.

    Dolan: Yeah do it! I seen that guy on the highlights!
    Mills: OK Boss.
    Perry: Um, he’s not really that good according to these metrics, is very injury prone, and they’d probably want a pick plus……
    Dolan: Now hold on there. Those consultants I hired said to never trade picks doe?
    Mills: True dat. But we could send them Willy, Frank and Dotson – they’re no longer picks, just wuz picked? Plus we got all them centers and guards anyway. And we get the best player in the deal which is what matters most.
    Perry: Um, all solid points sir, however…
    Dolan: Do it do it do it!!!!
    Mills: Reaches for cell…
    Perry: Sigh

    Guys, let’s not make this another Rubio situation in which we get dozens of posts talking about how the Suns definitely want to take our garbage for Bledsoe. No trade is happening without at least one of Frank/Willy/a first rounder, and therefore no trade should be made.

    When considering Bledsoe’s value it’s important to remember how deep the PG position is in the NBA. Despite being a “star”, Bledsoe is probably like the 12th – 15th best PG in the league, which is to say he’s basically an average NBA starter. And that doesn’t include any of the 5 PGs selected in the top 10 of this years draft. Most teams are pretty much set at PG.

    As much as I would love to see KP playing with a competent PG ponying up one of our few young guys with potential in exchange for a not particularly young average player (with bonus health concerns) would be incredibly dumb. Doubly so because we’re not actually in any rush to be better at the moment. Nothing wrong with calling and low-balling (there can’t really be very many potential suitors given what I was saying about the number of teams that are set at PG) but he just makes too much more sense in other places for us to ever be the high bidder I think. Hoping the Knicks understand that.

    @MikeAScotto
    Suns and Nuggets have discussed a trade of Eric Bledsoe for Emmanuel Mudiay and other pieces, league sources told

    I would give two 2nd round picks, including the Bulls pick, which has some value and O’Quinn and Thomas.

    That’s probably not enough but it’s as much as Indiana got for George and as much as we got for Melo.

    Denver is by far the front runner but if they balk, we’re probably the next best thing.

    I would do any combo of Kanter, Lee, OQ, Kuz + the 2nd rounder we just got in the OKC trade. No?

    Also Dotson?

    How about KOQ, filler, and the Chicago 2nd round pick. That pick is likely to be a very early second rounder and does have some value.

    The Denver trade might make sense if Phoenix thinks Mudiay is any good.
    If not, then I’m not sure what Faried does for them — they already have 2 PFs that need to play in Chriss and Bender.

    Crazy that PHX went from having Isaiah Thomas, Goran Dragic, and Eric Bledsoe in 2014 (and Seth Curry!) and might end up with Brandon Knight and Emanual Mudiay to show for it. That is some serious bad GM’ing.

    So far Mudiay has been terrible. Unless the Suns know something the rest of us don’t know, I can’t see why anyone would want to bet on Mudiay being their PG of the future. Denver is going to have to do a lot better than that or we can beat that deal and not give away much.

    One issue I see is that if we trade for Bledsoe, that puts Frank’s development on the back burner for awhile unless we play him with Bledsoe. Personally, I like the combination of Bledsoe and Frank a lot (nice defensive back court). But then we are stuck with that goofball Hardaway contract coming off the bench or playing him at SF.

    “As much as we’re all for a tankathon, getting a competent player like Bledsoe to convince KP to stick around/stay positive might not be a terrible idea. ”

    I’ve been thinking the same thing. It is a balancing act between sucking enough to get that top 3 pick while showing some promise going forward so KP, Frank, etc.. have something positive to look forward to and want to stay and play.

    Please, no Bledsoe. I’m rooting very hard for Bledsoe to Denver.

    No Knicks trade, please, unless it is a three way where the Knicks take Bledsoe without giving up a 1st, Frank, or Willy and then flip him to another team right away. Let’s be Lucky Pierre this time. Keep the tank going.

    This guy just quit on his team a few games into the season, and you want him here?

    Crazy that PHX went from having Isaiah Thomas, Goran Dragic, and Eric Bledsoe in 2014 (and Seth Curry!) and might end up with Brandon Knight and Emanual Mudiay to show for it. That is some serious bad GM’ing.

    As shitty as it comes.

    Plus, they could have had KYRIE IRVING for Bledsoe (+ Jackson) this summer, and now, 3 months later, they are trading Bledose for shit. This should be a fireable offense in basketball. The front has to know how engaged the players are. They should have known EB wanted out.

    #49 is right. If your trade doesn’t include willy or frank, the suns say gtfo. they would rather believe they are at least drawing live with a mudiay or Jabari or a first than add a modestly productive vet with a known ceiling. they have no use for koq.

    I don’t think Bledsoe gets in the way of franks development at all. Frank is probably at least two years away from being a legit NBA starter. In the mean time he can get minutes as a back up.

    Even without Bledsoe we shouldn’t be looking to start frank anytime soon. Two years is about the perfect window to learn in without pressure.

    This guy just quit on his team a few games into the season, and you want him here?

    It’s not the best sign, but I think he’s been unhappy with the situation there for awhile. He may not want to be part of a rebuilding team. If that’s the case then NY would not be a good place. I think Perry would be smart enough to talk to his agent and see if he’s OK with NY before making any trade.

    Bledsoe’s a good player, not a great player by any means. Most I would give up for him would be Courtney Lee and filler (not Willy) + Chicago’s 2nd round pick. Ultimately that’s probably not a great move for the long term tank but man, it’d be fun to watch a team that had some potential to do something. Bledsoe is a good offensive player, and when dialed in, a really good defensive player. Bledsoe / Frank / Hardaway actually isn’t bad.

    I don’t think Bledsoe gets in the way of franks development at all. Frank is probably at least two years away from being a legit NBA starter. In the mean time he can get minutes as a back up.

    Our current PGs are so horrible, I think he’s going to be playing significant minutes by the all star break assuming he remains healthy. If he can’t crack this rotation, we may have a different problem. Any other team, I agree with you, but I think Bledsoe winds up reducing his minutes.

    @67 – probably true but I also think Frank would end up taking some of Lee’s minutes, assuming that’s who would be traded for Bledsoe in some combination. Hornacek always liked playing 2 PGs anyway.

    suns asked for both frank and willy. if we were any other team we could chuckle, but since we are us we just have to pray they don’t throw in KP and Clyde.

    It does reduce his minutes but that’s probably a good thing. Our PG situation is so bad that Frank is going to be forced into a bigger role than he’s ready for, struggle, and then get destroyed by the NY media.

    If we have someone like Bledsoe then Frank isn’t the savior and has time to learn the position and get used to the speed and physicality of the NBA. It removes all the pressure and immediate need.

    lmao

    Michael Scotto?Verified account
    @MikeAScotto
    Following Following @MikeAScotto
    Phoenix Suns asked New York Knicks for Frank Ntlikina and Willy Hernangomez in exchange for Eric Bledsoe, league sources told @BBallInsiders

    holy #@$^%^ Phoenix really DID as for Willy and Frank!

    I’d hang up that phone before they could even finish that sentence.

    I wouldn’t hang up on that. I’d just counter with Lee, Sessions, and a 2nd round pick, and let them hang up!
    🙂

    Of course they would ask for that.

    And we asked for two #1’s and a front-line starter for Melo. Obviously that can’t be it because of the salary constraints. $14.5M vs $5M in salary. It would only work if we threw in someone like Noah and they added Josh Jackson.

    Offer back Lee and O’Quinn. That trade works straight up.

    Im sorta laughing but I’m also nervous, the life of a Knicks fan.

    You guys remember the last time a disgruntled Point Guard for the Suns was a trade target…

    yeah it’s a no-brainer “hang up” for me, but I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t be refreshing Twitter every 5 seconds until this is over.

    Thankfully Perry and Mills are at the beginning of their term. If it was year 3 and the team was struggling, there’s no doubt they make a win-now trade.

    Eyes on the prize(s):
    Doncic, Porter, Bagley, Ayton, Bamba

    There is no need to chase meaningless marginal wins. Bledsoe is 27, and he has this year and next year on his deal, then he’s a FA. That doesn’t align with our window. Will still be paying off the shitty Noah and Lee deals after Bledsoe is gone.

    Hell 2 da naw on this idea.

    I would think a little bit about Willy + Lee for Bledsoe, if only because we know KP’s best long-term position is C and we have a bunch of bigs already. Trading away Lee gets us off his 2019-20 dollars too. I love Willy but at best in the modern NBA he’s a 25 min/night player unless we really think he’s going to turn into Marc Gasol on defense.

    No doubt it would make KP mad to trade away his BFF, but not giving him a competent PG to play with might make him madder.

    Maybe they’d take Lee and McDermott? Or Lee +filler + the Chicago #2.

    Thankfully Perry and Mills are at the beginning of their term. If it was year 3 and the team was struggling, there’s no doubt they make a win-now trade.

    This and the fact that Bledsoe isn’t a big enough name for Dolan to really get hard for gives me faith that we’ll do the right thing here.

    If we send Lee, Thomas, Noah, O’Quinn or one of the other vets, I’m OK with a trade for Bledsoe. A hard “no” as far as KP, Ntilikina and Hernangomez.

    There is no need to chase meaningless marginal wins. Bledsoe is 27, and he has this year and next year on his deal, then he’s a FA. That doesn’t align with our window.

    I know I’m in the minority on this with just about everyone here and in the basketball media, but I think the idea of “window” and “tanking” are a bit overblown.

    There is no guarantee that a tank gets you the pick you want and no guarantee the player will pan out even if you do. Window is a consideration, but IMO, the “main goal” is to accumulate attractive contracts and assets that can either become part of the long term solution or be traded/rolled up into needs over time. I don’t really care if a guy fits KP’s timeline right now if he’s on an attractive deal I can do something with later. It’s the trash contacts either on the same timeline or not that I don’t want.

    Kanter and Hardaway are more unattractive to me than Lee even though they are on the same timeline and Lee is not (though I would have no issue with moving Lee). Noah is the worst because the deal is unattractive and he’s not on the same timeline.

    Bledsoe at 14.5m and 15m is a pretty good contract. He fits a short term need, could be a longer term solution for 4-5 more years before even beginning to decline, and had a couple of high caliber teams teams interested in him in the off season. If we could give up less than we get, I’m all for it. We can worry about what we are going to do with him and when later.

    Fultz is playing through a shoulder injury, which Brett Brown flatly said in preseason was affecting his shot and which Fultz himself virtually admitted to Kevin O’Connor as well. He shouldn’t even be on the floor until he’s physically right, which you’d think the Sixers would be cool with given their experiences with Noel, Embiid and Simmons.

    It’s so confusing what they’re doing there.

    I just came back here to say that. They ARE funny. But I kinda remember a Derek Fisher/Matt Barnes scrum. This wouldn’t surprise me.

    It started off funny, then it got way too alt-right-y for me. “Hahaha – they’re gay!” “Oh man, OBAMA’s gay, too!” Ugh.

    @83

    See, I agree with you for the most part that the idea is to accumulate good contracts and good assets. I just dont see how the best possible asset + contract combination in this case is not a top 5 pick.

    Yes, the player may flame out, or the pick might not be high enough to reach the real top prospects, but that’s not the point: the point is, is Bledsoe’s production at 2 years 30 million more valuable than a top 5 pick on a team favourable 4 year contract with 2 team options, plus whatever asset the Knicks would have to offer to entice Phoenix into taking Kanter / Lee?

    I would say definitely not. It is uncertain that the high end pick will work out, but it is also hella uncertain that Bledsoe is even gonna stay healthy, let alone have a clear positive impact for years to come.

    Unless you’re talking about superstars, high draft picks in strong drafts are still the number one asset in the NBA. If you tell me we can either have a top 4 pick in 2018 and the same team, or the 9th pick plus Bledsoe – Hernangomez and Lee, I’ll take the first option every time. Uncertainty for uncertainty, I’ll have a try at a young superstar instead of the just barely good veteran PG.

    When considering Bledsoe’s value it’s important to remember how deep the PG position is in the NBA.

    Good point. It’s easy to forget there are so many good point guards in the league when you’ve never had one.

    “There is no guarantee that a tank gets you the pick you want and no guarantee the player will pan out even if you do.”

    Said by nobody, ever, so why use this as part of an anti tank argument?

    The pro tank argument is obviously more nuanced than that.

    A few reporters on Twitter are saying the Knicks have hung up the phone on dealing Frank and Willy *phew*

    Bledsoe is an interesting fit. He falls outside that 25 and under bracket the FO is looking at, but likely would still be in prime-ish years when the team is ready to compete. Regardless of what is being offered, I am personally not too keen given his injury history. If we can get him on a good deal that we aren’t giving up any young core members or 1st rounders, then that isn’t too bad. I say let the Nuggets and Bucks fight over him.

    I think Jowles was so battle-scared by his battles with ruruland, his PTSD makes him appear in his dreams at night, and gratuitously brings him up in conversation when everyone else is scratching their heads.

    I can’t wait to see Willy putting up a steady 15/12 in 30mpg somewhere else.

    Very small sample size, but I think the team has the makings of a potent offense. If Ntilikina can stay healthy, and TH2 shoots even just a little better- NYK will score very well. Also, KOQ is so valuable to this team. He has perfected his role and has earned a permanent spot in the rotation. This is why Perry should sell high now. 12 games will have passed before you know it, and we will have a really good trio at the 5 when Noah returns if KOQ gets traded. I hope Willy’s ego isn’t bruised by the depth at center. It sounds like he’s willing to keep pluggin away, but I don’t see him taking minutes away from KOQ until he becomes a better rim protector.

    I don’t think Hornacek should continue to start TH2 & Lee at the wings. Lee should be the 2nd string SG, and McBuckets should probably start. KP looks fine as the top option, but he spends so much energy on offense that he’s not playing as hard on defense. But man! If KP can maintain this type of efficiency on offense, then we have a star on our hands

    I said it from the instant Timmy was signed – he can’t play at the same time as Lee. Neither can run plays, rebound or guard a real 3.
    If you’re actually trying to win, Lee should start at the 2 and Timmy should be your alleged scorer off the bench. Lee and Timmy could conceivably both play should Frank ever make an appearance, since Frank allegedly has pg skills and may be able to guard a 3 because of his alleged defensive prowess.

    I’m of the mind that everyone needs to chillax when it comes to getting so upset about willy not playing yet this season.

    Fact is we are deep with bigs. Also KAnter is better than Willy now. Yes, Willy is hopefully a part of our future going forward but its not unreasonable for Kanter, an experience veteran who is better than Willy, to play now. Kanter is only 25 and if he can be resigned for a more reasonable per year salary, he might be a good piece to have going forward. A big rotation of KP, Willie, Kanter and one more big who is more of a rebounding/defensive bruiser type (i.e. a cheaper, healthier Noah)…would be a solid big rotation to build around. Heck, maybe KQ is that guy.

    Yes, Willie started last year at the end of the year and played well. He’s also a second year player who only started the last third of the season and just handing him the starting position if he doesn’t deserve it is not necessarily good for his development. Practicing against Kanter and the other bigs and being hungry for minutes could be good for his development too. I imagine he will get his burn in due time. Really good chance that KQ is gone mid season and if not his contract is up this year. Noah is the one we want to eventually shed ourselves of. And Kanter could be gone at the end of the year too. Plus if we do want to trade KQ or Kanter, we gotta showcase them!

    This works under the trade machine.

    Knicks get: Jamal Murray, Ken Faried
    Suns get: Noah, Ntilikina
    Nuggets get: Bledsoe

    Noah and Frank for Bledsoe works under the cap too. I don’t think I do that, because it hurts the tank, but dumping Noah’s un-dumpable contract is mighty appealing.

    I swear it’s like people never, ever learn. All these trade proposals where we get rid of our lottery pick after eight minutes of floor time so we can add two years of Eric fucking Bledsoe to our 25-win team.

    See, I agree with you for the most part that the idea is to accumulate good contracts and good assets. I just dont see how the best possible asset + contract combination in this case is not a top 5 pick.

    Yes, the player may flame out, or the pick might not be high enough to reach the real top prospects, but that’s not the point: the point is, is Bledsoe’s production at 2 years 30 million more valuable than a top 5 pick on a team favourable 4 year contract with 2 team options, plus whatever asset the Knicks would have to offer to entice Phoenix into taking Kanter / Lee?

    1. You are assuming a top 5 pick when the Vegas consensus is for around 30 wins. That would probably net us something similar to last year (6-8).

    2. If we trade for Bledsoe, we won’t magically lose our #1 pick for this year. Bledsoe would probably net us an extra 3-5 wins or so and we’d simply pick a few spots lower.

    So IMO, if we win the trade in terms of players, we aren’t giving up much more other than perhaps drafting 2-3 slots lower. We’d have to win the trade by that much. If not, I’d pass. I’m not in the camp that thinks tanking and KP’s window should be driving our thinking. It’s part of it. We need to win trades too.

    If you can get Bledsoe for a bunch of our dreck, then fine. Whatever. Giving up Ntilikina for him after a whopping eight minutes of floor time is too Knicksy to even contemplate.

    Young players, controllable years. This is not rocket science.

    I swear it’s like people never, ever learn. All these trade proposals where we get rid of our lottery pick after eight minutes of floor time so we can add two years of Eric fucking Bledsoe to our 25-win team.

    It’s not about adding Bledsoe. It’s about dumping Noah.

    If we could do the 3-teamer I proposed (where we get Murray and Faried for Noah and Ntilikina, with Bledsoe going to Denver), that is a clear upgrade. Murray is a better prospect than Frank; Faried is a better contract than Noah. Denver probably says no to that, and maybe Phoenix too, but that is a good deal for the Knicks.

    Said by nobody, ever, so why use this as part of an anti tank argument?

    The pro tank argument is obviously more nuanced than that.

    I’ll clarify.

    IMO, tanking is way overrated as an effective strategy for building a contender. The 76ers did the most extreme and effective job of tanking in the history of basketball. The NBA changed the rules partially because of what the 76ers did. They are now in phase 2 of that rebuild after all these years and they still suck. They are still a few years away.

    Sometimes an accidental or purposeful tank works out well (mostly through luck), but it fails badly sometimes too.

    IMHO, a more effective strategy includes trades for good players on fair contracts, using cap space etc… The Nets were a bottom dwelling mess with no picks. Good trades have put them on a par with us, if not better already. If they had a pick this year and kept trading effectively, they’d be good in no time.

    I swear it’s like people never, ever learn. All these trade proposals where we get rid of our lottery pick after eight minutes of floor time so we can add two years of Eric fucking Bledsoe to our 25-win team.

    This. Its crap like this which is the reason Knicks fans get a rep about being too impatient and petulant to actually support a rebuild. We’re just two games into our rebuild and people are already entertaining the idea of trading our youngest player. Jesus Christ.

    I guess early tomorrow morning most of us will get an alert on our phone saying Sam Presti just traded Ferguson, a 2022 1st, and Roberson for Bledsoe. Lol.

    As far as our bigs go, I think we all would love to hang on to KOQ, but he’s too valuable and too good in his role. With young bigs like Kanter and Willy, Mills HAS to move him before his value drops- like before Noah returns. Once Noah returns, KOQ’s value will drop unless he’s starting. It won’t be his fault though..we just have too many tall guys..the East is BIG, man..hahahaha.

    Seriously though, KOQ’s value will probably never be higher than it is now. Honestly, I like his fit on the roster more than Willy’s, but Willy offers upside that KOQ doesn’t. KOQ is probably alot closer to his ceiling than Willy, and our Knicks have a bad habit of giving up on potential too soon (ie: Strickland, Mark Jackson, Nene, Gallinari- though getting Melo at his expense is a good tradeoff- just losing the other pieces sucked). So Willy stays unless a team blows us away with a trade proposal. I really like KOQ, so this sucks- but he has to be traded. Maybe we can use him to dump Lance or Lee.

    I would not give up Nitti or Willy for Bledsoe (unless of course the team’s private view of Nitti is less optimistic than the public view). I’d entertain giving up the Chicago 2nd round pick, KOQ (even though he’s on a great contract) and filler. That probably doesn’t get it done, but I don’t see anyone offering anything special. Mudiay stinks so far.

    The Suns won’t trade Bledsoe for our shit veterans, it makes zero sense for them. Giving Ntilikina or Hernangomez away is literally unacceptable in any sense.

    If he only makes the Knicks 3 wins better max, like stratomatic said, why the hell do we want him anyway? I’d still rather draft 7th than 9th every day and lose those games. The only reason to even attempt this trade is if the Suns decide to do what makes 0 sense for them to do, which is dump Bledsoe for crap veterans.

    Just no.

    I am more concerned that Phoenix is our main competitor in The Tank For Doncic. They are really really bad with no bright spots in sight.

    I’m continuing to root for Denver (or anyone else) to trade for Bledsoe.

    Even if the guy came here, behaved, and played well, what’s the difference? +5 wins? So, win 33 instead of 28? All that does is screw up your lottery slot.

    Again, stay out of it unless part of a 3 way where the Knicks get a pick or interesting asset. The priority here is to move OQ, Lee, and LT if possible. They almost have to move OQ or Kanter when Noah comes back. TANK!

    Phx: koq, lance and Mudiay

    Nyk: faried

    Denver: Bledsoe

    I’ve always been a Faried fan, but I don’t see what we are going to do with him.

    I personally hope we don’t end up with one of the 5 worst records. I want KP to be so good we win too many games. This mindset of tanking and constantly chasing the next high lotto pick is destructive. There will always be an exciting young player coming down the pipe. When does it end? We have our franchise in KP. We don’t need to sacrifice his development to chase another lottery gamble. Losing is hard to shake and takes time to escape from. KP is in his third year, we need to really try to be a solid playoff team by next year and winning 20 games this year will make that turnaround almost impossible even with a top 3 draft pick.

    If we play our young guys and end up with a top 5 pick, great, but not making productive moves in order to ensure not winning is toxic. Don’t trade KP, Willy, or Frank (unless the front office is convinced he’s a bust), and don’t trade a 1st round pick but other than that anything should be on the table for Bledsoe.

    @115 +1 100%

    I swear it’s like people never, ever learn. All these trade proposals where we get rid of our lottery pick after eight minutes of floor time so we can add two years of Eric fucking Bledsoe to our 25-win team.

    JK47 continuing to bring the heat….

    @115

    I agree 100% but honestly, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone arguing otherwise. Play the young guys and focus on them. If they are good enough to win 35 or 40, great! If they suck, well, I’d rather them lose enough to be top 5 in the lottery than win 3 more games and draft 7th.

    I don’t think anyone here hopes KP, Frank, Willy and everyone else suck so we can draft high, people would love it if those are the future stars that will start showing now how they’ll carry the Knicks forward. It’s just that if they do suck, maximizing the lottery outcome should be the next immediate order of business. Making win now moves with a roster that’s clearly not even close to contention is a recipe for long term disaster once again.

    I’m frankly not even sure KP is the star of the future, so why go all in to win 3 more games? Hell, if Bledsoe guaranteed a playoff spot, then by all means go and get him. Not the case, and theres 0 indications the Suns would accept anything not including Willy, Frank or a high pick.

    But Bledsoe is already 28. You get him for this year, and then next year, and then you have to make a decision about whether or not to extend him through his decline phase. I’m not real excited about seeing how much Eric Bledsoe has left in the tank in his 30’s. He has already shown a lack of durability.

    He would be a stopgap player here and not a long-term solution.

    I agree with Stratomatic. If it’s a really good deal we should do it. But we don’t trade our young talent, specifically, don’t trade Ntilikina or Willy.
    Also, I don’t think the Suns want capable veterans, and they want something good back for Bledsoe, so this makes a trade with us unlikely. More likely is some team that wants to contend now and needs a better point guard. Denver makes sense, and maybe the Bucks do too.

    Unfortunately, I wouldn’t put it past our front office to change their stated (and reasonable) strategy when some eye candy comes walking down the street. So who knows what will happen.

    And with all respect, I hate this argument that losing is hard to shake and leads to worse development of young players. We’re following a league where Durant, Giannis, Westbrook, Curry, Davis, all played their first years for pretty dreadful teams and it had zero impact on their ability to improve. In fact, it was their improvement that led their teams out of their misery, not the other way around. The stars who didnt face such issues in the beginning of their careers where either lucky to be drafted in the right place (Harden, Leonard) or good enough to instantly impact their teams (Lebron or Paul for example).
    If KP is a star on the level of those guys the Knicks will win more games simply by virtue of him being great. If not, then well, who knows, he might not be the guy.

    @115 +1

    Just curious…what do people think the contract for KOQ will look like this offseason?

    Someone asked when the tanking ends? It ends when you have your young core in place. Then you make your move. If you draft well, it can work, but there’s no guarantee.

    Philly is doing that this year, and Minny. We’ll see if they really have enough in place. For Philly, Noel is gone and Okafor busting. Their core seems potentially injury prone. As for the Knicks this can be the very first year of intentional tanking. The Knicks did not tank under Phil or before, not intentionally. 🙂

    I think that you need 3-4 really good young talents, and maybe a couple more decent ones, too. KP, Willy, and Frank can be that (but we need to see Frank this year). Right now, the Knicks have 2, maybe 3. Add another Lotto pick to them, and then maybe Dotson and the Chicago pick can be the second tier young guys.

    Also, if they can deal off Lee and Kanter opts out, there’d be cap space after the year, too, to go for a quality youngish free agent.

    Simmons with a Triple Double against the Pistons… he has been so damn impressive. 21-12-10 on 8-11 shooting with 4 turnovers.

    Embiid has 30 in 11-14 shooting.

    Simmons is really good but I find it pretty weird how teams defend him out beyond the arc like he’s a threat out there

    Embiid is definitely struggling with conditioning and I don’t think he’ll ever be able to play 30 mpg 82 games in a season, but Simmons seems completely fine physically. It’s not like Simmons is Greg Oden, he had a serious injury and healed and that’s it.

    I know people are always tentative to praise the results of the process, but this kid is the real deal.

    The Warriors are putting the clamps on DSJr, but he’s getting to the line very well. 2/9 but 6 free throws already.

    what do people think the contract for KOQ will look like this offseason?

    15/3, something like that, maybe less.
    He doesn’t seem to be on anyone’s radar and the league’s focused on going small. Probably as a backup to a young big.

    Embiid had 7 turnovers and the Pistons (except Langston) missed a ton of 3s. I’d still be excited if I was a Philly fan. Simmons looks like missing a year didn’t set him back much.

    Simmons looks pretty freaking awesome. Some of those passes are Lebron-level.

    Looks like perhaps all the Bledsoe Knicks rumors were much ado about nothing. If the beat writers can be believed, it sounds like the Frank/Willy attempt by the Suns was pretty much a quick “no way” by Perry and Mills. Could it be we actually have reasonably competent FO guys?

    Agree in general with all the posters here saying that going for marginal wins with a good not great player is not worth giving up assets and the draft position for. It would just be nice to have a decent team to root for though. Yankees spoiled me.

    I don’t think Eric Bledsoe is a marginal addition to the Knicks. I don’t think we should trade a young asset for him but as a buy low option he could make us a mid 40s win team. Eric Bledsoe was a really good player last year and it would be nice to have a guy that can bring the ball up the court against ball pressure.

    @134

    I agree with this. He is perfect to bridge the gap until Frank is ready to be a full time starting PG. They could even play together long term if it works really well. But most likely you just keep Bledsoe for the two years on his contract and then if Frank is a stud you let him walk and if Frank is a bust you resign him.

    That said I don’t think we will get him. We don’t have the assets without moving Frank, Willy or a 1st. You could maybe convince me of moving a lottery protected pick as long as it instantly turns into a 2nd rounder if it’s in the lottery.

    The most I would give Phoenix is Enes Kanter and the rights to Ognjen Jaramaz. I think adding Hernangomez and Bledsoe gives us more passing and defense to our starters and a guy like Bledsoe could bring out the best in McDermott and Hardaway Jr.

    But we won’t make that trade for him. Even though Kanter is the best player Phoenix would get in any trade, his value probably isn’t high enough around the league because of his defensive reputation. I think Milwaukee or San Antonio are the best landing spots for him.

    This is probably a 30 win team at best without Eric Bledsoe. Ain’t no way Bledsoe makes this a mid-40’s win team. You’d have to believe that he is a 15-win player, and that is insane.

    People I would trade for Bledsoe:
    – Kuzminskas
    – O’Quinn (only because we have too many bigs)
    – Courtney Lee
    – Noah
    – Sessions
    – Lance
    – Beasley
    – McDermott
    – Dotson or Baker (maybe)

    Also, I do not think Kanter is better than Willy. Kanter’s defense makes him literally unplayable (unless we stealth tanking). He looks like Bargs out there on the defensive end.

    He didn’t quite do this, but he might as well have for a number of plays against Detroit:

    Bargsing

    I think the Knicks have at least 23 wins between KP, Hernangomez, and O’Quinn. I think Bledsoe is a 7 win player, personally. I don’t think the rest of the roster is so bad that we can’t get 12-16 wins out of Lee, Hardaway Jr, McDermott, Ntilikina, and the rest of the crew.

    I’d rather have Michael Porter Jr but I’d like to see our front office win a trade. The last time we won a trade we drafted Willy Hernangomez.

    Btw, Dejounte Murray makes me love the Spurs even more and gives me tremendous hope for Frank Ntilikina

    @137

    The Suns won 24 games with him playing 66 games on the season, so unless he was solely responsible for at least half of their wins, I think its fair to assume you’re correct.

    Btw the Suns, after all the circus, are beating the Kings quite easily. We complain a lot about Knicksy stuff but Sacramento is on a whole other level.

    I was somewhat optimistic that the current team wasn’t so bad that they could be competitive and perhaps win in the mid-30’s but losing the home opener against a pretty bad Pistons team that was playing the 2nd night of a back-to-back and were down 21 in the 1st half was pretty deflating and brought me back to reality.

    Watching the first two games showed me that a lot of times our offense struggled to generate good looks for players, especially when the other team pressed us. There could be many reasons for this, such as lack of Melo or Rose, or the lack of a decent point guard; but I am hoping at least part of it is just that most of the team is totally new to each other except for two weeks of preseason.

    The Grizzlies roster outside their big two is better than people think. Brandon Wright, James Ennis, Jamychal Greene and Tyreke Evans (sorta) can all play. I think they’re probably playing over their heads so far, but they have some pretty good players

    It’s not that Bledsoe is worth 10 wins it’s that our complete lack of a PG is worth -5 or -10 wins. We had 1 assist in the 1st quarter against Detroit and 1 assist in the 3rd quarter. Our offense especially with Sessions is so labored. Everything is hard. We get no easy shots and ball movement is poor. We spend so much time trying to just initiate the offense.

    Any capable PG is going to be worth a lot more wins than their skill level. The offense would be completely different with Bledsoe setting it up.

    Re: Bledsoe, why? “So we won a trade for once” is a bad reason. “So we can win 5-10 games more” in a year we’re going nowhere is a bad reason. “Because we currently have crappy guards” is a bad reason.

    Sure, guard is a position of need, but you don’t trade for a position of need when the player you’d acquire:

    1) has a lengthy injury history
    2) is a year away from getting his big contract
    3) has attitude problems
    4) would marginally improve the team at the cost of a top draft position.

    Put another way, this draft is at least three players deep. The difference between picking 2nd and 6th is the difference between more years in purgatory and a fast rise to the promised land. Bledsoe would definitely move us down those four spots…if he could stay on the court.

    Why would we want any part of that???

    Another thing about trading for Bledsoe is that from here you can’t tell if the one game of suddenly good play is due to the new coach or due to the lack of him. It could be partly tge latter and that would make me worry.

    But as for winning a trade being a reason to trade, think of it as improving the overall caliber of our roster. I dont really see tge difference in the two. But if doing that gives us a better short term at the expense of the future, I don’t want to do it.

    What’s silly is that pretty much everyone is agreeing that you don’t trade them anyone from the core guys you don’t want to deal (Frank, Willy, etc.) and since the Suns have no need for anyone else on the Knicks, it is a moot point. We all agree on the topic. No Bledsoe trade.

    Players to trade for Bledsoe:
    – Kuzminskas
    – Noah
    – Sessions
    – Lance
    – Beasley
    – Baker

    just tried the espn trade machine and Bledsoe for Noah is success..
    or Thomas and Lee for Bledsoe.. pretty much anyone 3 years signed by Phil except the young players

    KOQ is cheap for 2 years so keep him and the others are not eligible until later

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