Roundtable: 2017 Knicks Pre-Draft Discussion

The player taken well before the Knicks’ #8 pick that will be a bust…

KURYLO: I’m going to go with De’Aaron Fox. I like his defense, but he just strikes me as a bit inconsistent and his outside shooting is a red flag. Fox’s ability to drive and throw alley-oops hints at a game that is more style than substance, and I’m concerned what will happen against more athletic and more skilled opponents. Point guards that can’t run an offense usually transition to shooting guard, but what happens when that player can’t shoot either?

I’ll throw a second one in the mix: Jayson Tatum. Supposedly he’s a tweener forward, a good iso scorer with passing issues, and questionable defensive desire. Been there, done that. I’ll pass.

FISHER-COHEN: I don’t love this question since I don’t think it should be much of a consideration for bad teams. Upside matters way more than floor due to the max individual salary since solid role players tend to get paid something around if not more than their value after four years. You could get the same production from a free agent at similar dollars. I’ll go with Fox though since he’s the only one with a flaw that could damn his career if he doesn’t address it. The jumper-less guards who succeed at the NBA level tend to be otherworldly athletes, which Fox is not.

GIBBERMAN: I’ll go with Jayson Tatum. I don’t see him being elite at anything. For his offense to truly take off his handle or shooting needs to get significantly better. His ability to be able to contain dribble penetrating wings is also a concern. He’s not nearly the offensive prospect Carmelo Anthony was, but might require some of the same limitations in team building without the elite level offense (in his prime).

CROCKETT: It’s been a few years since I’ve spent much time on college hoops, but Tatum seems the most bustalicious of the top 8 or so picks. My reasoning is admittedly flimsy. I find it weird that the story on him really hasn’t gotten any more sophisticated or nuanced since the end of the college season. Fox’s story, by contrast, has had the standard arc: post-NCAA tournament bump that has settled into the standard “Some people love him. Some people hate him” thing that we do with literally every PG. DSJ’s story has the same ending but comes from the opposite direction. The consistency of language in describing Tatum is Manchurian Candidate-like, which scares me. It’s like no one is looking closely at him.

The player you really fear the Knicks will take at #8…

KURYLO: … is Malik Monk. He doesn’t rate well on two of Ed Weiland metrics (2P% is under 50%, and RSB is only 4.9) so you wonder why his athleticism isn’t translating to on the court production in other areas? And while there are optimistic visions of Steph, Curry bested Monk in both of those categories by a wide margin. So the likelihood that Malik has a similar growth spurt when he hits the pros is nil.

The last thing this team needs is a big man scorer that doesn’t rebound or play defense. Lauri Markkanen would be a mistake, partially because he’d be teamed with Porzingis (and perhaps ‘Melo too) and the pair do not complement each other. Honestly I’m not big with taking one way players, unless they can *really* make a difference on offense. And Markkanen doesn’t strike me as that guy.

FISHER-COHEN: I wish I could add some diversity to the responses here, but I agree with Mike. Monk is a true one-dimensional player as well as being undersized and lacking in length. The problem with the Curry comparison — which is what people seem to fall back on when defending Monk — is it basically translates to, “If Monk improves at a rate that virtually no other player improves, he will be great.” Yes, Curry stayed two more years, and if Monk stayed two more years and showed the same level of improvement Curry did, he’d be a much better prospect.

GIBBERMAN: I understand the concerns about Monk, but I do think there’s a more well-rounded player in there than we’ve probably seen. It’s happened before with Kentucky players and Cal’s very stringent usage of them at the collegiate level. If they take Markkanen I’ll flip.

CROCKETT: I’m an Arizona alum but Markkanen’s defense frightens me. I didn’t see that much of Monk, but got the impression that he’s a rich man’s Courtney Lee — with a chance to be Rip Hamilton — that will produce exactly what you can reasonably expect from an 8th pick. Somehow that production for Minnesota or Dallas would be totally OK, but for NY it would always be seen as an unforgivable reach.

The player you hope falls to #8…

KURYLO: I have to go with Florida State’s Jonathan Isaac. He’s 6-10, rebounds, was an efficient scorer (62% ts%), hit 34.8% from downtown, and is only a freshman. Much like Zinger, he still has the ability to fill-out his body. Isaac seems pegged to go 6th so it’s not impossible for him to drop to 8. A blogger can hope, right?

FISHER-COHEN: For metagame reasons, I’ll go with Fox. I don’t think the triangle is a solution or a problem except insofar as Jackson has used the lack of it as an explanation for all his failures. It is a red herring that distracts fans, the media and Phil himself from the simple truth that the Knicks lack talent and aren’t investing near enough in their future to address that deficit. As an aggressive, quick, ball dominant guard, Fox doesn’t fit the traditional triangle and could give Hornacek an out… a way to prove the effectiveness of his more uptempo, guard-oriented style. As an unselfish player with strong court vision, he has the potential to help KP realize his potential as well.

GIBBERMAN: Damn it, Mike stole mine. I’d love to see what Issac and KP could do together at PF and C, it’d be awesome to watch.

CROCKETT: Lonzo, duh.

The player taken after the #8 that will be better than the Knicks’ pick…

KURYLO: I’ll go out on a 7 foot limb and say Zach Collins. He had the 10th highest 2P% and 7th highest shot block rate in college basketball last year. That’s impressive for a 19 year old. On the other hand, Collins was foul prone and didn’t play a lot of minutes. So essentially he’s got a high ceiling and low floor. He’s certainly not a sure fire guy like Myles Turner, but he has potential.

FISHER-COHEN: Collins or Mitchell. Since Mike’s covered Collins, I’ll take Mitchell, who has gotten a lot of comparisons to Patrick Beverley, despite being an inch taller and 30 lbs heavier with a 4’ wider wingspan, and few to Avery Bradley who is the same height and a similar wingspan and also quite a lot lighter. Mitchell isn’t great going to the rim, and maybe he never will be, but if he can continue to improve his shooting as he did between his first and second year at Louisville, like Bradley, he may be able to be an excellent starter anyway.

GIBBERMAN: There’s some injury concerns, but I’m still going to go with OG Anunoby. His steal and block rate numbers are better than Kawhi Leonard’s in college. He’s a legitimate freak, it’s just a question of how far along the offense, specifically his shot improve.

CROCKETT: It’ll be Frank. We will pass on him. Dallas will take him and he’ll become Nic Batum but a real PG. (Feeling hella cynical at the moment.) Side note: Zach Collins has been similarly Manchurian Candidate-like, same as Tatum. I’ve been expecting him to vault up mock drafts to the point of being overvalued. Nothing really. What am I missing? What’s not to like?

Realistically, who should the Knicks take at #8?

KURYLO: Dennis Smith Jr. If you’re still not convinced about Smith over Monk, consider this. A critical consideration when scouting amateurs is looking at their level of athleticism. Often those AAAA players (good enough to dominate the minor leagues but not the pros) lack the ability to compete at that increased level of physical ability. That is, someone can be quick enough to blow by college defenders, but not fast enough to do the same maneuver against the pros.

So a good litmus test to translate college stats to the professional level is by looking at *how* athletic a player is. With that in mind, look at the following two stat lines (per/40 min) & tell me which player is the better physical specimen:

TRB AST STL BLK PF PTS FTA/FGA
3.1 2.9 1.2 0.6 2.4 24.8 0.32
5.2 7.1 2.2 0.5 2.4 20.8 0.48

The second player (Smith) has a higher rate of rebounds, steals, and free throw rate, by a considerable margin. Based on those numbers, the only reason to take the first player (Monk) is the points. And if you’ve noticed, this franchise has failed year after year by overrating scoring (Rose, Bargnani, T-Mac, Francis, Curry, etc. etc. etc. ).

Last note, look at those assist numbers. If you’ve been a Knicks fan for as long as I have, there is a running theme in our team’s history of not having a legit point guard. In the 80s, the team traded both Mark Jackson & Rod Strickland. In the 90s we turned to a QB and were thrilled to get a Nets one year wonder. (And forgot to play Blackman in the Finals.) In the 00s it was Stephon Marbury for ~$87M in between Howard Eisley & Chris Duhon. As for this decade, who was the Knicks best PG? Prigioni? Felton? Lin? Rose? Calderon?

See my point? Maybe in 2010 we can look back and clearly say Dennis Smith Jr.?

FISHER-COHEN: Of the players with a decent chance of being available, the only players I’d consider are Zach Collins, Smith Jr., and Ntilikina. If KP wasn’t here, I’d take Collins. His numbers are great, and he’s got the kind of all around game that would allow him to complement whatever pieces we add in the future. Collins shares too many strengths and weaknesses with KP though… It’s hard to see them thriving together. That leaves Smith Jr. and Ntilikina. I don’t love Ntilikina, but while the Spurs and Warriors are good case studies in favor of analytics, they’re also good case studies in favor of drafting smart, humble players. Smith has some character issues, and while those don’t always carry over to the pros, since I didn’t get to sit in on the interviews with him or watch his reaction to dashiki-clad Clarence Gaines’ oddball questions, I can’t judge for myself. Without that information, I have to pick Ntilikina.

CROCKETT: Full on shoulder shrug. I’m open. I’d like to think that at #8 a team should be looking to walk away with a good player with limited upside more than the most (high variance) potential. But I have no idea what this FO will do.

211 replies on “Roundtable: 2017 Knicks Pre-Draft Discussion”

The best takes I have seen/heard on this whole Knicks..fiasco..was Stephen A & Max’s take on First Take where Max threw the paper, and Scott Van Pelt’s take. SVP’s take, while very harsh, was also very accurate and actually calmed me down enough to realize that maybe all this drama is for the best. They say it has to get worse before it gets better, so given that adage- I look forward to the Knicks emerging from the other side of the draft in a better state. That said- we hafi chat ’bout this draft ting *rasta voice*- I just wanted to get that earlier stuff off of my chest.

First, how close is Phil to really adding another 1st rounder? It just feels like a bunch of hot air because I can’t understand why he hasn’t done so yet if he were really close. There are no FA’s worth the cap space we have this season that would actually sign with the team- so why not absorb a contract to get that additional 1st? The options discussed will NEVER be worse than Noah, SO DO IT!! You know what would be great? If Phil would take back say..Evan Turner and the 15 without surrendering Lee & KOQ so he can package them to a playoff contender who has a top 18 pick- Detroit maybe. If he were to do that and stretch Noah, he will have won me over for at least one more year. 3 picks in the top 18 would work wonders for this team and remove pressure to get back adequate talent in a Melo trade, thus allowing that move to bring back salaries that help our cap. We won’t have to ask for a Kevin Love or Blake Griffin, etc.

In any case..I’m running out of space here..whomever Phil drafts needs to have defensive acumen. Maybe if Phil would let Hornacek coach his way, I’d be ok with Kennard, Monk, or DSJ. If he stands pat and isn’t able to add another pick, I think the pick should be Ntilikina. Even if he doesn’t pan out as a playmaking PG, he should be able to play the 2 as a high end 3 & D guy who can create better than Courtney Lee at the very least.

First, how close is Phil to really adding another 1st rounder? It just feels like a bunch of hot air because I can’t understand why he hasn’t done so yet if he were really close.

I don’t think that’s the way it typically works.

What teams do is identify and work out players they might like to take at the slot that might be available (Phil has been doing that). Then they try to make a deal pending one of their target players being available in that slot. If one of the players they want is available, then the deal has a good chance to close. If not, no deal is made.

Imagine the Knicks had only one player in mind, they traded Courtney Lee for a pick, and then the player unexpectedly went at # 10. Then they are screwed.

I think in general teams wait until they see how the draft is developing before closing on deals for picks. If something is close to being done, we won’t find out until draft night.

Nicely done, gentlemen!
I’m still torn between the three PG amigos. Personally I’d probably take DSJ because, as Mike states so well, he’s so uber athletic. Plus he’s an anklebreaker.

I’m not sure it’s correct to compare SGs (like Monk) to PGs like Smith using boxscore stats.

Excess boxscore value to a large extent is generated by big men and players that go to the basket getting extra rebounds and PGs getting extra assists relative to other players. SGs play off the ball, are typically small, and are on the perimeter too often to pile up rebounds or assists.

I’m not sure how to value these things correctly, but it seems to me that most of the boxscore systems might undervalue SGs. Even a system like Wins Produced that tries to adjust for things like this with positional adjustments tends to rate most of the highly regarded SGs in the league on the low side compared to the perceptions of coaches.

I’m not making a case for Monk here. I’m just saying his outside shooting and general ability to score efficiently in a wide variety of ways is probably more significant than his lack of assists given his job was to score, not to create for others. The fact that he might be undersized to defend the SG position is a bigger red flag for me UNLESS he is capable of getting assists when given the ball and asked to do that too.

Well… I’ve spent the last year believing we could pry Russell from LA for Melo. Last night’s trade makes it seem like we most likely could have if Phil didn’t have his head up his ass.

I’m not overly bummed because Russell has a lot of glaring flaws. But taking a flier on him is probably better than whatever Phil has planned.

Even a system like Wins Produced that tries to adjust for things like this with positional adjustments tends to rate most of the highly regarded SGs in the league on the low side compared to the perceptions of coaches.

This makes sense if you think of what a shooting guard is-he’s the (relatively) short guy who isn’t as skilled as the point guard. If the shooting guard was a great ball handler who could pass well, he’d be a tall point guard. This is a generalization, but I think it’s pretty accurate. If shooting guards were better, they wouldn’t be shooting guards, and that’s why the position is relatively weak in general.

Can anyone find a comparable situation where a team trades a top 3 pick after two years of playing?

Chris Webber

I saw this cited a bit yesterday here. It’s not comparable, though. Webber was before rookie contracts. He negotiated a long term deal with an opt out after year 1. He used the opt out to force a trade. The Warriors choice was either trade him to the bullets or lose him for nothing.

The Camby trade Donnie Walsh cited is the closest precedent. But Camby was three years into his career and was beginning to be perceived as a bust for faulty reasons. This was a pre analytics league that undervalued centers who couldn’t post up. When we acquired him, he was a bench player. Porzingis isn’t going to be a bench player for anyone.

Even if you concede he’s currently overrated, there really is no precedent for trading a player like Porzingis this soon into an auspicious career beginning, especially in the current landscape of rookie deals.

This is only partially Knicks related, but since trading #2 for PG is stupid if Ball or Fultz are there, I think the Lakers best 2 options are:
1. Offer Brandon Ingram, 28 and a future 1st for PG
2. Send Deng, the 28 and a future 1st for Melo

The latter would be good for us of course

Lakers still need to shed $ ahead of next summer if they want to be in the mix for Lebron (and PG13 if they didn’t already trade for him). I read that to get to the max slots they would need they have to renounce the hold they’ll have against Randle and shed Clarkson’s deal. So they may still be ripe to steal an asset or two – would they give us Randle and 28 to dump Clarkson?

I’m a bit gutted we didn’t take Russel from them though – I guess maybe we had no-one to offer that was better than Brook (helps now but 1 year deal so also good for the cap) – since they don’t have their pick next year and they’re trying to attract FAs, they want to be the best they can be. But it feels like we could have found a deal and he is still young and with a LOT of upside as a partner for KP plus our 8 this year…

If shooting guards were better, they wouldn’t be shooting guards, and that’s why the position is relatively weak in general.

This is the position I think may be flawed.

If this was true, every team would try to put two PGs on the floor. The reason they typically don’t is that only one guy can have the ball in his hands at a time to generate plays for others. So rather than having 2 superior playmakers on the court at the same time and under-utilizing one or both, they opt to put the better shooter on the court. He’s the guy that can ideally come off screens, knock down open shots at a higher rate, generate more space because he can’t be left alone etc… playing off the ball. But if you have those skills, the only thing that makes it to the boxscore is your scoring and its relative efficiency. So it looks like you aren’t contributing much.

On boxscore stats Klay Thompson looks like a slightly above average player.

I’m not going to argue he’s a great player, but there’s no way he’s an “average” player. He can’t be left alone for a single second or he’ll destroy you. And even if you cover him, he’s still liable to score 20+ with a 60% TS%.

@2 Stratomatic

You gave a very good summary of how draft night trades work. We all need to remember that just because the Knicks haven’t announced any deal doesn’t mean that there aren’t any that are pending depending on the circumstances during draft night. The Knicks and their potential trading partners wouldn’t want to make their plans known so as to enable other teams to game against those plans. And vice versa.

For example, if the Pistons or Kings (at 10) pick Donovan Mitchell or the Blazers pick Justin Jackson (at 15 or 20), I would expect a trade announcement.

If we “could have found a deal,” what deal would that be? It’s easy to say we should have done this or that without actually being specific about what this or that would be.

Personally I’m happy we didn’t try. Russell should become an adequate player, but as a teammate he sucks. It’s been lip service so far, but if Phil actually gets serious about high character, 2-way players (now that the win-now Melo years are ending), then I’d be happy.

I guess maybe we had no-one to offer that was better than Brook (helps now but 1 year deal so also good for the cap)

Melo on a one year deal with a player option?

Strat I looked it up a few years ago and guards hit pretty much the same % of their shots.

I’m of the mind we should just suck it up and draft well (one of Jax’s few strengths), so getting a guy that can feed KP – and to a lesser extent Melo – is the top priority. I guess that means either DSJ or Frank at #8. But if they’re both gone by 8, then that’s a problem.

If they can add another good draft pick by moving Lee or O’Quinn, sure, but only if it’s a good deal. Would love to grab a guy like Swanigan, or if we just keep our 2nds, guys like Cam Oliver and Damaen Dotson.

you guys are missing the point a little on Russell…..you don’t get him without taking Mosgov too

Re: Monk

He doesn’t rate well on two of Ed Weiland metrics (2P% is under 50%, and RSB is only 4.9) so you wonder why his athleticism isn’t translating to on the court production in other areas?

I keep falling back on this: absolutely no one else on that team could shoot. It makes sense to me that a team with elite rebounding at multiple positions would tell the only player on the team who could shoot to stay behind the arc. His positioning could very well explain why his athleticism didn’t translate to rebounding.

This would also impact his 2P%. If a team has only one floor spacer, what will happen when that floor spacer tries to get in the lane? There’s no one to defend beyond the arc so he’s likely driving into a packed defense.

At the very least, those statistics demand intense film study by scouts to see if the above is true or not before we can use his poor rebounding and 2P% numbers as damning evidence.

If we were picking 5, I would listen to all these things and say pass. Not at 8, when the other options are Markannen (should have been the unanimous answer to that question… god help us if we draft him), Frank (and all his question marks), and Dennis Smith Jr (who is probably the better pick, I admit; I’m just worried about a player who has already had ACL tears).

The Pekovic news is interesting. It tells me that Minny thinks it can compete and is looking for space to sign FAs. Presumably that makes a trade of Rubio more likely? Do they think they can sign Jrue or someone, add Isaacs, and become competitive?

We’re working out Donovan Mitchell today. This kid is a sleeper at #8 or could be a guy we’re looking at with another pick acquisition.

Donovan Mitchell scheduled to work out for NYK today. Changed from Tuesday. He's in the mix at 8. More: https://t.co/nULxqKpQ1P— Ian Begley (@IanBegley) June 21, 2017

Great round table, guys! (But I think you may be confusing injured point guard Doc Rivers with benched shooting guard Rolando Blackman, Mike:)

@ 17 – yeah I think you make really good points about Monk and it brings up a point I made the other day about programs like UK. They don’t build teams with long term plans in mind. Coach Cal doesn’t go recruiting players thinking “I’ve all ready got a good point guard and center, so I need wings this year.” They go after the top talent regardless of position or need because a school like UK most of their top players are staying one or two years at the most. So if two 7 foot centers end up signing with him in the same recruiting season, he isn’t gonna turn one of them down. He’s gonna take them both and then build the team accordingly. So some years he’s gonna have a team with lots of fast guards, another year he might have a team loaded with big men and another year he has a more balanced team.

So the players are sometimes asked to take on different roles and subjugate their talents for the good of the team. We saw this with KAT. He’s shown skills in the NBA he didn’t show off that much in college because that was not what he was asked to do.

Monk: Best shooter
Ntilikina: Best defender
DSJ: Best anklebreaker

Trust in Phil.

Great round table, guys! (But I think you may be confusing injured point guard Doc Rivers with benched shooting guard Rolando Blackman, Mike:)

Yeah that was confusing. I remember Doc blew out his knee but that line made me just go google to see if he had gotten healthy and I just forgot (he didn’t; Doc was injured during the finals).

@17 and @23
Monk might be a good PG but had to move to shooting guard at Kentucky because there was no way that Fox could play that role (can’t shoot). The fact that Monk moved to SG does not necessarily mean that Fox was a better PG at all. Fox might be but it also could be that Monk’s versatility required him to move for the good of the team.

?WATCH YOUR HEAD??#BringMeMonk pic.twitter.com/2r2vKocHI0— FLATBUSH JAYY (@BROOKLYN_SKII) June 21, 2017

Someone yesterday questioned me why would I call Magic an idiot.

It’s not about the Russell/Lopez trade, I just think the Lakers are making the same mistakes as our Donnie Walsh era.

They will trade every young players and picks to open cap space for the slim chance of pairing Lebron and another star in LA. They already started it.

PG13 is a nice player, but he’s a 2nd tier star and Lebron won’t leave the Cavs to play with him. After Lebron chose another team, they will sell whatever is left for someone like Boggie Cousins just because.

It’s a dangerous path, and we already know how it ends.

12, 13, 16 – in order:

Yes, agree it’s easy to say we ‘could have found a deal’ without being specific. And my whole point was ‘well I guess maybe we tried and it turns out we couldn’t’. What underpins my point is a) a sense we maybe didn’t try (it certainly didn’t break as a rumour if we did) and b) a concern this means Phil still isn’t open to the sort of ‘take on a bad deal for an asset’ swap which the Nets just did. Remember this is the same deal type that led Philly to hose Sac, and ultimately enabled them to land the No1 this time out. And I may be wrong – he may be looking at that kind of deal, I don’t have insider knowledge. I guess you could summarise my point as ‘man, I hope Phil was at least looking to get in on the Russell discussions as it’s exactly the sort of deal we should do’.

Not least as I basically think Russell – who is clearly a tricky character – is pretty underrated. He’s a second year PG – the position that takes longest to develop – and actually has some pretty good statistical indicators. He’s also the right age/timeline to fit with KP and on a team-friendly deal.

Yes, I get it would have entailed taking Moz – again, exactly the type of deal we should be looking at rather than hoarding cap space to throw at a win-now overpay.

No, I’m not sure Melo would be the deal the Lakers were looking for because there’s no guarantee he invokes the player option and they now have their sights set higher.

Man, picking 7 instead of 8 would be nice.

I’d rather have the memory of that time we fought back from 16 down in the second half to beat the sixers on the last day of the season.

They will trade every young players and picks to open cap space for the slim chance of pairing Lebron and another star in LA. They already started it.

Also if a big part of your plan is convincing Lebron to join your team it’s worth noting that he’s going to be in his age 34 season in his (potential) first season in a new jersey. I get that he’s superhuman, but there is a lot of tread on those tires. Going all in for him when he was going into his age 26 season was a no-brainer and even going into his age 30 season it seemed very likely he had a number of good years left. Going crazy to try to get his age 34-37 seasons is way more questionable. Even if he has a very gentle decline relative to average he’s still going to be slowing down a lot during the course of that contract.

here’s my order of preference of the names that seem most likely for us. I barely even know why so I won’t pretend to say why.

1. Dsj
2. Monk
3. Frank
4. Mitchell
5. Markannen

Man, picking 7 instead of 8 would be nice.

Or, you know, 4 or 5…

Or third, but that’s ok, I would have much rather had a year of Afflalo and Derrick Williams instead.

Draft express, which has for years been the most consistently accurate mock draft, has Ntilikina now dropping to 15, which happens to be the Portland pick. If that were the case, I’d pick Monk, then take on Evan Turner’s contract to get #15 and pick Frank.

there’s a decent chance someone is going to fall… i think it might be smith or tatum with smith being the most likely… the wolves are the prime candidate to do something weird whether it’s trading with the mavs or just picking someone like markannen….

the questions are.. are we gonna be ready to pick smith or tatum? and then.. if no one falls who are we picking?

if no one falls… i think the best course is to trade down and try to pick up any asset along the way… aside from picking collins outright which we’re not doing… the non-fultz/tatum/fox/smith/jackson/isaac/ball names are pretty mediocre… mitchell, monk, jujackson, ntilikina and kennard all come with pretty high risk at pick 8 because they’re not that good and all have serious questions to their game…

if i had to pick one… it might actually be kennard… the low stl rate is a major red flag but he had a 1.4 per 40 rate as a freshman which would suffice and just from the eyetest i think he has enough athleticism and has enough creativity to his game to survive with less than ideal athleticism… his offense is definitely more well rounded than any of the other names mentioned and is the reason why i would rank him ahead…

but if smith is there .. the pick has to be him.. it’s really not that close…

I still don’t think Phil really understands the whole “take on a bad contract to acquire assets” concept. This would be the perfect time to do it, as the team pretty obviously sucks and is far away from not sucking, and there are some teams that would probably like to unload bad contracts and would be willing to attach mid-first round picks to do so.

Maybe he’ll surprise me, but I don’t see it happening.

I tune back in, jackson is shopping KP around for a draft pick and players.
I tune back out.
Same old Knicks

I really wish people would stop freaking out and projecting their own negativity onto everything they read on Twitter. We have no idea if Phil was shopping KP. All we really know is that he’s open to hearing offers…isn’t that his job?

I mean I get it but come on people. Don’t fall for this shit. Freak out when something ACTUALLY happens.

Man, picking 7 instead of 8 would be nice.

I’d rather have the memory of that time we fought back from 16 down in the second half to beat the sixers on the last day of the season.

I’d be livid about that except I was watching the game and Horny did all he could. All-scrub lineup. What can you do when nDour hits the game winner?

The only real takeaway from the last few weeks was that the scrubs were a better team than the “stars.” Which we pretty much all knew, especially since Willy was seen as a scrub for most of the year.

1,000 rebounds, 150 made threes, 100 blocks through 2 seasons — LeBron James- Kristaps Porzingis(Via @bball_ref)— Paul Hembekides (@PaulHembo) June 21, 2017

Porzingis is the ONLY player in NBA history with at least 2,000 points, 1,000 rebs, 250 blocks and 100 made 3's over his first two seasons.— Tommy Beer (@TommyBeer) June 20, 2017

1,000 rebounds, 150 made threes, 100 blocks through 2 seasons — LeBron James- Kristaps Porzingis(Via @bball_ref)— Paul Hembekides (@PaulHembo) June 21, 2017

Porzingis is the ONLY player in NBA history with at least 2,000 points, 1,000 rebs, 250 blocks and 100 made 3’s over his first two seasons.— Tommy Beer (@TommyBeer) June 20, 2017

Blocks are since mid 70s., 3s since 79-80 and tall guys shooting lots of threes aka stretch 4s is a 2010s thing. It’s cool but not what they are trying to make it out to be.

Blocks are since mid 70s., 3s since 79-80 and tall guys shooting lots of threes aka stretch 4s is a 2010s thing. It’s cool but not what they are trying to make it out to be.

There weren’t any tall guys shooting lots of threes back before blocks were a recorded statistic either. But I actually believe Arvydas Sabonis would have joined in this club had he been able to play during the 1980s.

I still don’t think Phil really understands the whole “take on a bad contract to acquire assets” concept.

He did use Shump to ditch JR and Chandler to ditch Felton. So, I think he understands combining good and bad in the same deal. He’s just been unwilling to accept bad to get good in return. I don’t know why but I imagine it relates to prioritizing cap space/winning now. You just hope he’s now abandoned his quixotic quest to bring in talent via free agency. Brace for frustration, though.

Draft express, which has for years been the most consistently accurate mock draft, has Ntilikina now dropping to 15, which happens to be the Portland pick. If that were the case, I’d pick Monk, then take on Evan Turner’s contract to get #15 and pick Frank.

I like it.

I don’t really care who Phil takes at #8. I’m going to trust Gaines and the rest of the staff. But I am really hoping we come out of this period with some combination of 3 players that fit together well and that meet our needs next year and long term.

Slot #1 = 8th pick
Slot #2 = Trade Courtney Lee for Rubio or a pick
Slot #3 = Take on a Portland contract for a pick

I still don’t think Phil really understands the whole “take on a bad contract to acquire assets” concept.

The “take on a portland contract to get one of their picks” thing has been in the media for weeks, so my guess is that Phil gets it. maybe he didn’t when he started this job, but he gets it now.

If Josh Jackson really doesn’t want to be a Celtic for some reason, then shouldn’t the Celtic try to swap with Phoenix? Jackson is seen as the better prospect than Tatum, so if the Celtics take Tatum with the #3 pick, it seems like they’re giving up some free value with the asset.

I really wish people would stop freaking out and projecting their own negativity onto everything they read on Twitter. We have no idea if Phil was shopping KP. All we really know is that he’s open to hearing offers…isn’t that his job?

Phil can come out and deny it anytime he wants. Other GMs do it all the time. Some of them are almost definitely lying, but it’s a small thing you can do for the player if nothing ends up happening.

Phil hasn’t done that, because, you know, gotta play the #mindgames!

A reporter on the Above the Rim XM radio show this morning said that everybody knows that Jayson Tatum is at the top of Phil Jackson’s draft board.

Is this something that everybody really knows?

I wonder what Phil’s actual draft board looks like… (we need someone to leak it:)

We should go on the record with our mocks at some point (at least up to and including the 8th pick):

Here’s mine:

1 – Fultz
2 – Ball
3 – Isaac
4 – Jackson
5 – Fox
6 – Tatum
7 – DSJ
8 – Ntilikina

Nate Silver said that there was a 70% chance of an Ossoff win yesterday in Georgia CD06. Wrong again.

Nate Silver said that there was a 70% chance of an Ossoff win yesterday in Georgia CD06. Wrong again.

I know I shouldn’t… don’t… explain… math… to reub…. Control… yourself….

The Camby trade Donnie Walsh cited is the closest precedent. But Camby was three years into his career and…When we acquired him, he was a bench player.

Camby had just finished his 2nd pro season when he was traded to NY. He’d started almost all of his games for the Raptors that year, and led the league in blocks per game.

Van Gundy relegated him to the bench in preseason when Camby asked to come out of a game for “a quick breather”. Van Gundy obliged, then didn’t put him back in a game for a whole week (Riley taught him that trick).

Camby was very much the Porzingis of that year. He was a freak basketball specimen but was considered weak and brittle. He was a good shot blocker, but a poor rebounder and help defender.

Toronto obviously gave up on him too soon, and Phil likely would be giving up on KP too soon if he trades him. But Camby did something that most players don’t do: he improved his rebounding immensely several years after he entered the league. KP will need to make a similar jump in order to play at a level near Camby’s career value.

* What time does the first pick of the draft actually occur?
* My big board of players who might be there: 1) Isaac, 2) Frank, 3) Fox, 4) DSJ, 5) Monk

We should go on the record with our mocks at some point (at least up to and including the 8th pick):

Here’s mine:

1 – Fultz
2 – Ball
3 – Isaac
4 – Jackson
5 – Fox
6 – Tatum
7 – DSJ
8 – Ntilikina

I’m going to try to reverse engineer my desired outcome:

1 – Phi – Fultz
2 – LA – Ball
3 – Bos – Tatum
4 – Phx – Jackson
5 – Sac – Fox
6 – Orl – Smith Jr (logic: Hammond didn’t draft Payton, doesn’t like him, falls in love with Smith’s workout, thinks his talent is too good to pass up, open to trading Payton after selection)
7- Dal (acquires pick from Minnesota before the draft) – Nkitilina
8 – NYK – Isaac
9 – Min (after kicking itself repeatedly for outsmarting themselves and missing out on Isaac) – Markannen
10 – DGAF

KP will need to make a similar jump in order to play at a level near Camby’s career value.

Um, sure, if you completely ignore the offensively side of the game. Camby was great, but he was no Tyson Chandler.

Nate Silver said that there was a 70% chance of an Ossoff win yesterday in Georgia CD06. Wrong again.

55 winz

@ 57 – good catch, it was two years, not 3.

I may be wrong, but I strongly recall Camby’s perceived value being significantly lower than what Porzingis’ is now. I think the fact that we acquired him for a 35 year old Charles Oakley speaks to that.

1 – Phi – Fultz
2 – LA – Jackson
3 – Bos – Tatum
4 – Phx – Ball
5 – Sac – Fox
6 – Orl – Isaac
7- Min – Smith Jr.
8 – NYK – Nkitilina

I’ve read that wingspan and hand shape is a good indicator of potential. Frank Ntikina both possesses that. I’m all in for Ntikina or Dennis Smith Jr. Please draft a pg.

Any chance of packaging Melo and the #8 to LAL for their #2 and one of their later firsts and taking Ball?

Should I ask Nate Silver?

I think Draft Express has it right
1. Fultz
2. Ball
3. Tatum
4. Jackson
5. Fox
6. Isaac
7. Markkanen
8. Monk
Though I could see Jackson still going three, Isaac four, and Tatum 6. I think we wind up with Monk ’cause Knicks though I’d much prefer Smith. Monk and Frank are pick ’em to me. I like the idea of Frank better but it involves much more projection than Monk so either guy would okay to me. My board of guys that have any chance of falling to us (not Fultz, Ball, or Jackson): Isaac, Fox, Smith, Tatum (if just for asset value), Monk/Frank, Collins, Mitchell.

If we take Monk over Ntilikina it will be the biggest bitch move of Clarence Gaines’ scouting career. Frank is the high upside guy.

Mike, Silver tweeted this one week ago:
“It means there’s a 70% chance Ossoff wins and a 30% chance that MATH IS DEAD AND DATA IS BROKEN.”
6:08 PM · Jun 14, 2017
I guess that math must be dead.

Magic loves Melo. Magic has cap space if we take back Deng or Clarkson. Melo and #8 to Lakers for Ball and a late first would make everyone happy.

Mike, Silver tweeted this one week ago:
“It means there’s a 70% chance Ossoff wins and a 30% chance that MATH IS DEAD AND DATA IS BROKEN.”
6:08 PM · Jun 14, 2017
I guess that math must be dead.

And then another week of polling data came in, and Nate adjusted his forecast to a 50/50 tossup.

How do you manage to put on a pair of pants every day? That must take you hours.

I heard Josh Jackson talking on the radio just now and he said that he’s hearing that we’re trying to move up into the top 3. That’s a legitimate confirmed rumor.

After everything I’ve read leading up to the draft I’ll be pissed if the Knicks pass on Dennis Smith Jr. If he’s gone I don’t care if its Frank or Monk (assuming both are there) but if Smith is available and the Knicks pass on him I think we’ll be regretting it.

Sir, I juggled dozens of jets flying at 700mph in all directions over busy New York airspace trying to avoid massive thunderstorms for 30 years so getting my pants on is not an issue. How ’bout you?

“And then another week of polling data came in, and Nate adjusted his forecast to a 50/50 tossup.”

So what Silver said just one week before that just doesn’t matter? Do you really believe that things changed that much in a little week or is math really broken? Or is Silver just full of shit?

After everything I’ve read leading up to the draft I’ll be pissed if the Knicks pass on Dennis Smith Jr. If he’s gone I don’t care if its Frank or Monk (assuming both are there) but if Smith is available and the Knicks pass on him I think we’ll be regretting it.

Let me guess, you were a fan of the Rose trade…

Mike, Silver tweeted this one week ago:
“It means there’s a 70% chance Ossoff wins and a 30% chance that MATH IS DEAD AND DATA IS BROKEN.”
6:08 PM · Jun 14, 2017
I guess that math must be dead.

So if I predict the Cavs to be EC Champs at 99%, and tomorrow LeBron blows his ACL, so I revise my prediction to 50%, should I be held to the first prediction only?

That chart just proves that Phil Jackson is a great GM and Tony Wroten is a great point guard.

I wasn’t a fan at all of the Rose trade and if Kevin Pelton thinks Smith Jr is the 4th best prospect in the draft that’s good enough for me. Not to mention Mike in this article wrote the Knicks should take Smith too and his opinion I value way more than your dumb ass.

Smith seems to be the safe pick– should have a relatively high floor if not a sky-high ceiling.

Ntilikina is the high-variance pick– high ceiling but very low floor.

Monk is somewhere in between– I don’t doubt he’ll be a rotation player in the league, and he might become a quasi-star because POINTZ but he’ll probably be overrated.

I’m hoping a miracle happens and Isaac falls to us and Phil actually drafts him instead of doing something dumb and taking Donovan Mitchell there or something.

Oh no.

Mavericks and T-Wolves are discussing a trade for pick 7, per sources. Mavericks looking to move up from 9. Targeting Frank Ntilikina.— Legion Hoops (@LegionHoops) June 21, 2017

@79 That chart looks eerily similar to the Hillary/Trump chart. There seem to be a lot of last minute torn ACLs out there in politics these days. Or is it just broken math?

I wasn’t a fan at all of the Rose trade and if Kevin Pelton thinks Smith Jr is the 4th best prospect in the draft that’s good enough for me. Not to mention Mike in this article wrote the Knicks should take Smith too and his opinion I value way more than your dumb ass.

All I see is someone who forms an opinion based on what others tell him. Now THAT’S dumb.

Smith is far from a safe pick. He’s had ACL injuries, defensive indifference issues and his previous teammates weren’t very enamored with him. He could pan out but definitely not safe.

At this point I would assume that Cuban is going to make that trade and steal Frank from us. We might not regret it in the long run but it sure looks like a strong possibility.

It’s called reading and forming your opinion based on a bunch of different facts and opinions. Especially when it comes to stuff like the draft, I watch a ton of college basketball but nowhere near enough to be able to form a solid opinion on any of these prospects.

Don’t know why wanting a prospect who is ranked very high by most statistical models is equivalent to liking the Derrick Rose trade.

No pick at #8 is safe. Every potential player who might be selected at #8 has red flags. Smith is a safe pick relative to some of the other high-variance players who might be around when the Knicks make their pick.

Maybe KP is that good.
Imagine trading the number 2 pick in 2015 draft with a bad contract just for cap space.
I wouldn’t imagine us trading KP and a bad contract like Noah for just a cap space

@90 Okay. Smith is a safe pick…..”relatively”. Did you even put on pants today?

If we take Monk over Ntilikina it will be the biggest bitch move of Clarence Gaines’ scouting career. Frank is the high upside guy.

What? Monk is 19. Does he not have “upside”? That’s a crazy take

I’m telling you if the Knicks pick Frank over Smith or Monk they will regret the he’ll out of it.Mark my words

Dallas certainly loved Rodrigue Beaubois when he was there, but in the end he amounted to nothing. Will Ntilikina be Beaubois 2.0?

I have not been following the draft, but just for the sake of making a wild mockup:

1) Fultz
2) Fox
3) Tatum
4) Jackson
5) DSJ
6) Ball
7) Markkanen
8) Isaac

every prospect has risk… it’s a question of how much risk that player has… lower skill level… high risk… higher skill level… lower risk… this isn’t like stocks where high risk gets high return…

@79 That chart looks eerily similar to the Hillary/Trump chart. There seem to be a lot of last minute torn ACLs out there in politics these days. Or is it just broken math?

Don’t try to deflect.

I’d just like to point out that even if you take Nate’s original post as the criteria, predicting something happening at 70% and failing isn’t a big deal.

Of course none of that matters. Nate Silver didn’t incorrectly predict GA6. In fact he was pretty much right on, based on the available data.

It’s OK to admit you were wrong.

Nate Silver said that Ossoff had a 70% chance of winning or the math is broken a week before the vote. Silver was wrong then or using numbers to skew an election. Revising his numbers and his strong convictions on the last day makes me suspicious of his motives or competence. That’s why I say that numbers aren’t always a panacea. He did pretty much the same thing with Hillary/Trump. He’s either wrong a lot recently or there’s something else going on. Or there was a torn ACL that I wasn’t aware of.

BTW, about “safe picks”. I always have the impression that safe picks turn to be the worst ones. And I dont mean that you are losing the opportunity to draft someone with more upside. I mean that I feel that “safe picks” are actually bad players that do not even get to be rotation players.

I think that when a player is so bad, but for some reason is popular, then journalist start saying that is “safe pick”, “ready to contribute” or that has a”high floor”, because they actually do not have anything else good to say.

He’s either wrong a lot recently or there’s something else going on.

The other thing that’s going on is that you’re a moron.

I would have no problem with Dallas trading up if they are so keen on Frank. Likely because that means Isaac potentially drops to us. Worse case we go for Smith. Not a terrible scenario.

@100 Would you mind helping that other guy with his pants if you don’t mind?

I don’t know which Reub theory is more sad:

A) He’s the dumbest person on Earth
B) He spends hours a day on the internet pretending to be the dumbest person on Earth

It’s a really sad existence either way.

Also, if B is true I think you could argue A is true by default.

Would much rather have Isaac or DSJr than Frank. I hope that trade happens.

Rubio
Kennard
Melo (unfortunately stuck with him)
Billy
KP
Isaac at 8, Kennard at 12

I may be wrong, but I strongly recall Camby’s perceived value being significantly lower than what Porzingis’ is now. I think the fact that we acquired him for a 35 year old Charles Oakley speaks to that.

Oakley was a ruff ryder, though. You have to take that into consideration (and while I’m partially joking, that really was sort of the main reason for that deal).

Yeah I just think Isaac will be gone because of his body type. You can’t teach that length and athleticism

@105 Sir, I’ve been to Aruba, Curacao, Bonaire, St. Lucia, St. Kitts, St. Thomas, San Juan, Barbados, St. Maarten, St. John, Anguilla, Canary Islands, Gibraltar, Spain, Rome, Venice, Florence and Padova, Italy so far this year. Where have you been?

Yeah I just think Isaac will be gone because of his body type. You can’t teach that length and athleticism

That’s the thing about this draft, though. I absolutely have long believed that Isaac would rise the closer we get to the actual draft because of his body type, but historically, guys like Fox and Frank also rise the closer you get to the draft. There are just too many good players for them all to rise, ya know? Tatum and Jackson are NBA GM crack, but so is Isaac, but teams love point guards, too! It’s nuts! The #1 thing that NBA GMs go nuts for are centers who can play defense and shoot from the outside, but those are obviously rare – so the next realistic thing that GMs salivate for are good point guard prospects and 3s that can play the 4, and this draft has, like, 8 players like that!! Plus Monk, who might be an awesome shooter! It’s a great draft.

The latest rumors with the Dallas/Minnesota possible deal is that the Wolves want Zach Collins and they think #7 is too early for him, so Dallas is hoping that at #7, Isaac will somehow fall to them and if he doesn’t, then they can pick between Smith and Frank. #7 is a good spot to be in. Stupid coin flip.

OT Kawhi cut his cornrows. I guess he just got the Memo that they went out of style in 2004. Lol

At least now we know why the NYC airports are so fucked up…

Reub to fellow air traffic controller: “Hey, there was a 90% chance of severe thunderstorms 2 days ago, I think we better ground all flights”

if jackson withholding workouts without a promise is true then i can def see him in freefall….

@112 You might not know this because you’re illiterate on the subject, but many flights are intentionally delayed when there is a strong prediction of thunderstorms along the route of flight or at the destination airport.

if jackson withholding workouts without a promise is true then i can def see him in freefall….

Does he want to come to New York or something? What’s his deal? Is he just a nut?

Silver: “Prediction: Trump won’t be the Republican nominee.”
Daily Caller headline: “Celebrity pollster calls the election for Hillary Clinton on election eve.”
And most damning, “How I acted like a pundit and screwed up on Donald Trump.” by Nate Silver

Mike, you can call that deflecting but my point is that Silver is far from a statistical god. That was my point continuing from yesterday’s thread .

I just like how we’re arguing the validity of someone’s basketball analysis on the basis of their mixed political opinion poll track record

Here’s my mock (my guess at why order they will be picked, not who should be picked):
1 Fultz
2 Ball
3 Tatum
4 Jackson
5 Fox
6 DSJr
7 Frank (Dallas trade up)
8 Isaac
9 Markannen (Minnesota)
10 Z Collins

I’m fairly confident abt each individual pick besides Orlando (whether they prefer smith or Isaac) and the Frank/Minnesota swap. Somebody’s gonna drop out of the top 10 and if it isn’t Frank I think it’ll be Monk

Woj is saying that we’re taking Monk.

@117 Statistics are supposed to transcend genres. Good math is good math. And vice versa.

mama’s forgotten child is getting the attention he craves, everyone

i think there were rumors his workout with the lakers were terrible and that he stopped working out for anyone after that… he does seem a little weird and if you’re asked to shoot in an empty gym where that’s your biggest weakness then i can see why he wouldn’t want to do that…

the problem is that if jackson falls.. i’m sure the wolves will snatch him up… same with isaac… smith and possibly tatum might go past the wolves…

Anybody getting the feeling that the Knicks have told Monk that they’re taking him if he’s there?

It’s called reading and forming your opinion based on a bunch of different facts and opinions.

The only fact you presented to me was that someone else presented their opinion and that you listen to what they say as gospel.

Between following this thread and updating twitter every 2 seconds to stay on top of rumors; I am getting very little at work done today. That is always a stretch though on draft day.

Such an intriguing draft. I think regardless who we take, we are getting a nice player at 8. My main concerns are whether we can swing a deal for another first or Rubio. Get it done Phil.

Curacao, Bonaire, St. Lucia, St. Kitts, St. Thomas, San Juan, Barbados, St. Maarten, St. John, Anguilla, Canary Islands, Gibraltar, Spain, Rome, Venice, Florence and Padova, Italy so far this year. Where have you been?

What does this have to do with basketball? (Or with not understanding the difference between 70% and 100%?)

For Thibs’ sake, hopefully that trade broke down because the Wolves didn’t think they were getting enough back. Trading down and dealing the best player and you’re getting Wes Matthews as your reward? Fuck the heck? And I like Matthews, but come on, dude!

Spurs already looking to move LaMarcus Aldridge – offered him to move into the top 5 of the draft.

-Don’t you fucking do it Phil. His ass is way too lean.

Spurs already looking to move LaMarcus Aldridge – offered him to move into the top 5 of the draft.

-Don’t you fucking do it Phil. His ass is way too lean.

Before you get too mad at Ndour, it’s possible he helped save us from being in the top 5.

Well, look at the offers they keep getting for a good player! Wes Matthews and swapping a worse pick for their pick! That’s bonkers! I figured it’d be Matthews, pick swap and a future first.

Well, look at the offers they keep getting for a good player! Wes Matthews and swapping a worse pick for their pick! That’s bonkers! I figured it’d be Matthews, pick swap and a future first.

After the 09 Draft, it’s probably best not to try and make sense of anything the T-Wolves do.

Brian, i agree 100%. In addition, if the wolves are getting rid of Rubio, they probably would like to draft a replacement. The Number 7 pick will be much better for that than number 9.

I somewhat withdraw my criticism after I read the offer properly. That said their 09 draft was odd, so it is still somewhat valid.

Phil will be doing an interview with Al Trautwig tonight at 9 PM on MSG.

I’m sure it will be a real hard-hitting interview coming from an MSG employee.

Trautwig is pressing Phil.

Phil said he never had a player not come to an exit meeting in 25 years.

Yeah I had to stop watching, but Phil is clearly pissed KP skipped the meeting. I mean Rose didn’t show up for a fucking game and they let him off without any punishment?

LOL Wally is such a corporate buffoon. He says KP has to be a man and talk to his boss, but he never considers the other side of that equation – that Phil has to be a man and stop publicly leaking shit about his players too. In other words, give respect and you will get respect. If Phil thinks KP is acting in a way that is uncharacteristic of an NBA professional imagine what NBA players think about the way Phil behaves as a front office executive.

Frank Smith telling me Derrick Rose is one of his favorite players only turns me off him even more.

Woj reporting that George to the Lakers for 27, 28, Clarkson and Randle has been done. Not sure if 100% official yet.

Kristaps Porzingis would have never not shown up to an exit meeting if the New York Knicks were a competent organization. I love this team so much but caring about this organization is becoming unhealthy.

Wizards also potentially getting Tim Frazier from the Pelicans for the 52nd pick.

Actually scratch that PG trade. Looks like it was a bogus source claiming to be from Woj.

Kristaps Porzingis would have never not shown up to an exit meeting if the New York Knicks were a competent organization. I love this team so much but caring about this organization is becoming unhealthy.

The Phil Jackson Knicks are never going to be anything other than a clusterfuck embarrassment. I’ve come to terms with that, and I’m trying to enjoy it. The Knicks are kind of entertaining if you can appreciate them as farce rather than a sports franchise. They’re like an episode of Three’s Company, or a Pink Panther movie.

Did Phil really say when asked what he’d like to say to Knicks fans “I think we know what we’re doing”??

On Kristaps, Phil said, "As much as we love this guiy, we have to do what's best for the club." Definitely bothered by blowing off meeting."— Al Iannazzone (@Al_Iannazzone) June 22, 2017

With Vlade actually looking like he did decently on the Cousins trade, do we have the dumbest executive in the entire NBA? No one else really comes to mind.

Phil is getting mocked and ripped to shreds by the NY media on Twitter right now.

Trading KP is all about what’s best for the future of the Knicks cause you know KP is really old.

Phil isn’t trading KP. He assured that the Knicks will get him back next season. But he did let be known that the FO was receiving calls about him.

I’d like to think we don’t have the worst front office in the league, but I don’t know if I can make a case for that. Here are some candidates for worse front offices:

Phoenix, they constantly seem to mess up their coaching staff and their talent. Minnesota, because they can’t seem to agree on any action. Orlando and maybe charlotte, although Charlotte just made what I think was a great trade for Howard. Any comments? Or other suggestions?

TheVertical
Knicks have made calls about Kristaps Porzingis, aiming for a top-four pick to get Josh Jackson

We can’t actually be this stupid, can we?

Bill Simmons @BillSimmons
·
27m
No. 3, Crowder, Boston’s 2018 1st and the future Lakers/Kings pick for Zinger – can the Suns or Kings top that offer?

Dolan finally decided to totally defer…to the one person who’s even dumber than himself. I guess it was destiny.

Now we can pack Josh Jackson to get rid of Melo and we are on our way to greatness!

Isaac
Willy
Crowder
Ntilikina
Lee or if we trade him Mitchell or Kennard
2 #1’s next year (could both be lottery)
Plus whatever we get for Melo

Not bad if it happens.

Step 1: start with idiot owner with 10th percentile basketball EQ
Step 2: add pseudo star with 10th percentile basketball EQ
Step 3: fold in senile president with 10th percentile basketball EQ
Step 4: add sprinkle of unicorn

KP hasn’t returned any calls or texts from Jeff Hornacek either. That’s inexcusable for a 21 yr old or a 31 yr old. I have no qualms trading him if it makes our team better.

Seems like instead of just talking to KP about why he skipped his exit interview, he just got mad and wants to trade him

Hmmm I am still skeptical that this isn’t just all just puff. I get that Woj is pretty reliable, but until you start hearing specifics of proposed deals yet, no point us shitting our collective pants yet. It sounds like it’s been mostly other teams making the calls, which is basically them doing due diligence when you hear a player/management have a bit of a beef. I would imagine that if a deal gets done, teams are likely going to have to make godfather offers based on what has been reported. As much as teams probably like KP, I don’t think the likes of a Boston would be willing to make that kind of offer.

@168 How do you talk to a guy who’s in Latvia and won’t talk?

Phil is just being glib. He’s one of those assholes who constantly says “I’m just being honest.” Considering options is not the same as actively shopping KP. If he had tact, he’d realize what a frenzy he would cause by saying anything other than KP is “untouchable” but he has none.

How many times did he go through this with Kobe?

I’m in China and I talk to the US all the time. You post here from wherever you are travelling. So Latvia itself isn’t the obstacle. If KP really doesn’t want to talk, thats an obstacle, but probably a temporary one since his brother says he wants to return to NY. Anyway, he’s a prideful guy, so he’s certainly going to play hard if he’s back this fall. Let him have his summer to himself, if that is what he wants. It shouldn’t be a reason to trade him.

As a long time Knick fan, I hate it that we never keep anyone we draft.

I’d trade him for the #3, Crowder and two future firsts, but that’s because I’m firmly in the camp that he’s shown no signs of being a legit superstar and the Knicks need more picks.

Anything less than that and I’m done with this team, if I’m not already.

Reub,

This is an NBA where franchise players get coaches fired. An NBA where franchise players get GMs fired. Where franchise players become general managers (LeBron James). This is a player’s league, and there is no sane perspective that depicts Phil Jackson in a favorable light. Phil Jackson himself admitted that players have skipped exit meetings before around the league, but that it hasn’t ever happened to him. Whether you like it or not Phil Jackson has been god awful as the President of Basketball Operations for the New York Knicks. Kristaps Porzingis is right. R-I-G-H-T. Phil Jackson needs to be held to the carpet.

I’ve been doing this whole hopeful thing for a very long time. Every off-season I devise a plan for how the Knicks could build a 50 win team, and every off-season (except the Jeremy Lin summer) the Knicks go and do something awful like trade a 2016 draft pick for Andrea Bargnani, or trade good basketball players for Derrick Rose, or sign Derrick Williams and Aaron Afflalo, or trade Tyson Chandler and opt to not get Jae Crowder, or sign Joakim Noah to the worst contract in the NBA. The Knicks always do dumb things and this off-season is the breaking point for me personally. I can’t deal with a KP trade. Kristaps Porzingis should be a New York Knick long after Phil is gone.

Phil could easily trade for Ricky Rubio, grab another draft pick, move Melo, and build an actual basketball team. Do you know what the Knicks are going to do? They’re going to sign over-the-hill bums to long contracts. They’re going to trade Kyle O’Quinn for a bum. They’re going to fuck up. Because that’s what we do. We. Fuck. Up. Phil Jackson is just the latest jackass in a long line of Dolan’s Jackass Brigade. Don’t be surprised when we suck again next season.

Serious, can we calm down until something more specific is reported and corroborated?

@174 I really appreciate your concerns. However, KP hasn’t earned the right to dictate policy or fire his coach or GM. He’s 21 yrs old and his play has been spotty so far when he hasn’t been injured. It seems that there are some in here who are literally hysterical about this team and they should find another team to root for or seek therapy. Again, there is nothing wrong with entertaining offers on KP if we can benefit the team. How can this point even be argued?

Bill Simmon’s proposal seems interesting enough, but I’d rather build around KP, Willy, this year’s pick(s), and next year’s hopefully higher pick. That’s not a horrible core going forward. That can be built around. I’d rather not blow that up to get a soon-to-be 27 year old Crowder (not old, but not really a long term solution) and the admittedly sweet picks.

Serious, can we calm down until something more specific is reported and corroborated?

Hearing it from Jackson’s mouth wasn’t enough, I guess.

Ramona Shelbourne is saying we asked each team in the top 5 for their pick plus a young player on a star trajectory for KP

Ramona Shelbourne is saying we asked each team in the top 5 for their pick plus a young player on a star trajectory for KP

Which fits the narrative from reports yesterday that the asking price is too high. Given all the teams except for Boston in the top 5 are rebuilding, I doubt they would give away a top 5 pick in a very good draft plus a “young star” that they are trying to build around as well.

@179

That makes it sound like that Booker + #4 negotiating position from Phil was for fucking real oh my god no

Reports indicate that Pistons might try to swap Deandre for Drummond

Why the fuck would the Clippers do that

Where else has anyone seen the Booker proposal? The only place I have seen the Booker offer was on one of those shitty NBA rumours pages on Facebook, so I am not giving too much credence to that.

i dunno what the suns were doing saying no to that…. i mean boston with the #3 and the lakers/kings swap or jaylen brown gets it done also if shelbourne’s rumor is true right? or the lakers #2 and ingram… or the kings #5 and um.. buddy hield… ok it’s possible that viveke nixed that…

if i’m any of those teams that’s gotta be a no brainer… so i’m pretty skeptical about that….

Carmelo Anthony has told the Knicks he’d like to stay, according to Phil Jackson, who seems keen on having that conversation again post FA.

From Bondy

Not only are we trying to trade KP but Melo is also staying put oh my lord everything is breaking bad because Phil Jackson is the worst GM in pro sports

Reports indicate that Pistons might try to swap Deandre for Drummond

Why the fuck would the Clippers do that

Isn’t Drummond trying to become a post player? Much better than that one-trick pony who can only dunk the everloving shit out of the basketball. I mean, Drummond can do that too, but why run the pick-and-roll when you can pretend it’s 2002?

Not for nothing, but this is precisely why “Woj is always plugged in…except this time” doesn’t really fly as a position. If he says that the Knicks are calling people on Porzingis, the Knicks are calling people on Porzingis. That’s specifically not the sort of thing that you can actually hide from other people, since it involves other teams who don’t care about whether you want the news out there.

Who’s designating themselves the Jax apologists when he trades Porzingis for a bunch of players who the 2010 Lakers played in the playoffs?

Phil Jackson should be imprisoned on Elba for the next 48 hours

If Phil actually got a young player with upside and a high pick, you could argue both sides of that. You wouldn’t be an apologist either way.
But it seems like he’s not going to get that for KP. I’m hoping that means he doesn’t trade him, but I’m really not sure that is so. Its horrible waiting through this period of rumors, when everything could get screwed and you have no faith management won’t screw it up.

Now the zealots here are indicting the great Phil Jackson for trades that he hasn’t made. Only on KB.

Reub

Phil jackson is bad at his job and should be fired

That is all

Why does anybody give a fuck what this reub idiot thinks? This clown thinks Phil Jackson knows what the fuck he’s doing, and he thinks 70 is the same as 100.

Hey, it’s draft day already!
We’re moving closer to greatness in just a few short hours.
Try to have a rational, positive attitude guys even if it’s only for just one whole day.

IM getting more and more convinced that Dolan and reub are the same person so he probably just thinks “well he’s got 11 rings and I’ll make money either way so”

reub,

If and only if you are James Dolan, go fuck yourself, you chicken-shit hack. No one respects you, no matter how much money you have. Fuck you and your pal Isiah and everyone who’s ever bent over to kiss your ass, you useless sack of shit. I’d say that a chimp could manage a franchise more effectively, but the comparison would be an insult to the chimp. Fuck you.

Love,

THCJ

P.S. Your band sucks and none of them would give a fuck about you if your checks didn’t clear.

That’s not it. They want a pick and a good young player with a chance to be a star. For instance, this pretty much confirms that they did, in fact, ask Phoenix for Devin Booker and the #4 and the Suns turned them down.

So here’s the thing – like many folks here, I think that there clearly is a point where trading KP makes sense, but that point is way higher than Devin Booker and the #4 pick. I’m talking Godfather offers (and no, #3, Kings/Laker pick plus Boston’s 2018 is not nearly a Godfather offer – change that to the Brooklyn 2018 pick and we can talk). However, the fact that the Knicks think “Devin Booker and the #4” is fair value scares the shit out of me. Not just because that’s stupid (and speaking of stupid, that Phoenix apparently wouldn’t do that deal because Booker is the man despite him not being all that good is also stupid). Not just because it shows an old school mentality of “pointz=good” by wanting Booker. No, the reason I am worried is that if “Devin Booker and the #4” is your opening offer, and that offer is already bad, who knows what the hell they would be willing to settle for? Isola floated a Bledsoe/Bender/#4 for KP and a guy to make the salaries work. That’s a terrible trade, and yet I can’t say that they wouldn’t do that deal. Even worse, what if it’s Bledsoe/Bender/#4 for KP and the Suns offer to take back Noah to open up cap space for Jackson to go sign someone else? Holy shit, that’s scary.

Just watched the interview, and I gotta say, Phil has been misquoted pretty bad in reports on the interview. One thing I took away was as follows:

“We’ve been getting calls. We’re listening, but we’re not intrigued at this level. But as much as we love this guy, we have to do what’s good for this club.”

To me that sounds like he is doing what a lot of GM’s do at this time of year and kicking the tyres so to speak. You could probably apply that second part of the quote to anyone on the team.

Don’t get me wrong, I am mortified by the idea of trading KP for anything short of a godfather offer, but I think this is getting beaten up a bit. Watch this space I guess.

The key is that he is likely not telling the truth about not making calls. Woj says that the Knicks are the ones calling teams, not the other way around.

Is KP,Noah for Bledsoe, Chriss/bender, number 4 pick that bad? If plus next year pick. For me that’s quite enticing. Illl be a Knicks and suns fan then.

I’m backing away from the ledge. Phil Jackson’s a bad GM, but he has not traded away Kristaps Porzingis for a laughably awful package yet. So I’m not gonna crucify the guy for something he hasn’t done. Yet.

Is KP,Noah for Bledsoe, Chriss/bender, number 4 pick that bad? If plus next year pick. For me that’s quite enticing. Illl be a Knicks and suns fan then.

If it’s plus next year’s pick, then that’s a different story. I probably wouldn’t do it (as I don’t think clearing Noah’s salary is that big of a deal for a team that’s going to be bad next year no matter what), but adding a second first rounder would be huge. And I actively like Bledsoe.

According to the link posted above, the Knicks front office is a mess. I believe that. I’m starting to think it will take a miracle to come out well from this off season. The biggest issue seems to me that there is no coherent plan for the team. Last summer’s hires of Rose and Noah showed they weren’t of one mind about rebuilding. Now they seem to be trying to trade KP because he has his own mind about stuff. It’s really scary

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