Knicks Morning News (2017.06.07)

  • [ESPN] Knicks to work out N.C. State’s Dennis Smith Jr.
    (Tuesday, June 06, 2017 1:00:31 PM)

    Knicks to work out N.C. State’s Dennis Smith Jr.

  • [NYPost] Mets executive’s son is high on the Knicks’ draft radar
    (Tuesday, June 06, 2017 11:50:05 PM)

    These aren’t heady days for the Mets, but for the club’s director of player relations Donovan Mitchell, they are exciting, nerve-wracking times. Donovan Mitchell Jr., his son, has risen on the Knicks’ radar and is being considered for the eighth pick in the draft. According to sources, Mitchell, a Louisville combo guard, has a workout…

  • [NYPost] NBA experts: Carmelo Anthony not what the Cavaliers need
    (Tuesday, June 06, 2017 8:24:00 PM)

    So would Carmelo Anthony have made any difference if he were decked in wine and gold this June and the Cavaliers pulled the trigger on the Knicks All-Star before February’s trade deadline? Does San Francisco need another bay? No, NBA insiders believe Anthony would not have been an important addition against the sleek, fleet machine…

  • [NYPost] Knicks taking a good long look at Dennis Smith Jr.
    (Tuesday, June 06, 2017 6:12:58 AM)

    Former North Carolina State point guard Dennis Smith Jr. will work out for the Knicks on Wednesday, according to a league source. Smith, who arrived in New York on Tuesday, also has plans to work out with the Celtics, Lakers and Sixers — the top three teams in the June 22 draft. However, many mock…

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks to work out Dotson on Tuesday, Smith Jr., Kornet, and Meeks on Wednesday
    (Tuesday, June 06, 2017 11:15:00 AM)

    The New York Knicks will reportedly work out Houston guard Damyean Dotson on Tuesday, and North Carolina State guard Dennis Smith Jr., Vanderbilt forward Luke Kornet, and North Carolina forward Kennedy Meeks on Wednesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Timeout with Taylor Rooks: Former Knick Rasheed Wallace
    (Tuesday, June 06, 2017 9:15:22 AM)

    Former Knick Rasheed Wallace joins the show for the latest episode of Timeout with Taylor Rooks.

  • [NY Newsday] Source: Knicks will work out N.C. State point guard Dennis Smith Jr.
    (Tuesday, June 06, 2017 3:55:50 PM)

    The Knicks will work out former North Carolina State point guard Dennis Smith Jr. at their practice facility Wednesday, a league source confirmed.

  • [NYDN] Top prospect Dennis Smith Jr. to work out for Knicks on Wednesday
    (Tuesday, June 06, 2017 6:58:34 AM)

    Top prospect Dennis Smith Jr. is scheduled to work out for the Knicks on Wednesday, a source confirmed.

  • [NYTimes] Sure, He’s Good at Basketball, but How Are His Twitter Skills?
    (Tuesday, June 06, 2017 9:00:23 AM)

    More than other sports leagues, the N.B.A. has hooked the coveted millennial audience by projecting its players’ off-court personalities.

  • [NYTimes] How the Cavaliers Might Scrape Together a Win in the Finals
    (Wednesday, June 07, 2017 1:22:15 AM)

    The Warriors’ overwhelming victories in Games 1 and 2 might suggest that they are unbeatable, but the Cavaliers did climb out of just such a hole last year and won the title.

  • [NYTimes] Warriors 132, Cavaliers 113 | Warriors lead the series, 2-0: Warriors Handily Defeat the Cavaliers in Game 2
    (Wednesday, June 07, 2017 2:57:28 AM)

    Golden State took a two-games-to-none lead in the N.B.A. finals as Coach Steve Kerr returned to the team and Stephen Curry had the first playoff triple-double of his career.

  • [NYTimes] Jack McCloskey, Architect of Detroit Pistons’ ‘Bad Boys’ Teams, Dies at 91
    (Tuesday, June 06, 2017 3:40:08 PM)

    By drafting and trading for rugged players like Dennis Rodman and Bill Laimbeer, Mr. McCloskey built a pugnacious squad that won two N.B.A. titles.

  • 142 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.06.07)”

    I know some are higher than others on Donovan Mitchell, but if we could somehow nab a pick in the low-mid teens, I’d be so on board with him. Imagine drafting Ntilikina, then trading Lee for Rubio, and drafting Mitchell. That would be a nasty defensive backcourt.

    Kevin O’Connor at the Ringer really likes Mitchell for today’s NBA.

    Meanwhile I read in some article that Ntilikina’s wingspan is 7’1″. Wow.

    Sure, there a bunch of guys who would be nice picks if the Knicks could get into the mid-first round. Kennard is another one (there was a report that the Knicks might even consider him at #8. I don’t buy that. I think they’re only considering him if they pick up a second first rounder, like Portland’s #15 pick).

    @Frank

    Hard to see Mitchell dropping lower than the late lottery, but you never know.

    Dennis Smith has Lee Nailon potential defensively.

    Seriously. When your best defense of a guy’s defense is “there are times when he seemed to try!” you know you got some issues.

    what’s interesting is how backcourt/wing players are front loaded in this draft — if you look at DX’s mock draft, players 13–>28 are all PF/Cs except Justin Jackson and Terrence Ferguson. It’s a small / wing-player’s game nowadays.

    If Phil picks Malik Monk, His strategy would be summed up as “I couldn’t fix your brakes so I made your horn louder”.

    Imagine drafting Ntilikina, then trading Lee for Rubio, and drafting Mitchell. That would be a nasty defensive backcourt.

    I’d be WAY more in favor of drafting Ntilikina if we also traded for Rubio. The problem with taking Ntilikina at #8 is that he’s not a PG and he’s nowhere near ready to be a productive NBA player. We’d still have no PG and our #8 pick from this year would be on the bench developing into an NBA 3&D player over the next 3 years.

    If you have Rubio you can consider yourself set at PG, you can keep KP and WH happy because he’ll be getting them the ball in great spots, and it doesn’t really matter much if you aren’t getting much out of Ntilikina right now. You can move Holiday to the starting SG spot for now.

    If you can also add another good PG prospect with a mid 1st round pick and strengthen the bench with cap space, then it’s happy days are here again for this off season.

    Dennis Smith has star potential offensively.

    Dennis Smith has Lee Nailon potential defensively.

    Lee Nailon was a power forward. Dennis is a point guard. Smith can rebound and get steals, even if he’s clueless on defense that’s something you can live with if he’s a terrific offensive PG. If he was a good defender he’d be the first pick in the draft.

    Phil can start getting right into DSJr’s head today and make him a better player. He can turn him into a defensive stud as early as noon. It can happen because Phil’s done it before. Have a little faith.

    We need to do this right. We can get much better and fast.We shouldn’t trade O’Quinn, who is coming into his own and is multi-faceted. We shouldn’t trade Lee either (unless it’s necessary to bring in Rubio). If we can acquire Rubio through a DRose sign and trade our team gets a thousand times better. And right away. Then take the BPA in the draft (DSJr, Frank, Collins, Mitchell, I don’t care as long as he’s the most talented). Acquire another first by taking on one salary (hopefully Harkless) and draft another young stud (could be Kennard or Swanigan?). And grab Frank Mason or Frank Jackson in the 2nd round.

    Rubio
    Lee
    Melo
    KP
    Willy

    Bench: O’Quinn, Noah, Baker, Holiday, Harkless, Smith or Ntilikina, Swanigan or Kennard, Mason, Thomas, Kuz, Randall, NDour, Plumlee, Sasha

    That’s a much better team with depth and lots of youth.

    to me… pg defense is a bit overrated…. out of the starting pg’s there aren’t many you would consider great defenders… cp3, lowry and hill … and certainly none of them came in with great defensive reps from college… maybe wall but he hasn’t really lived up to his potential on that end either…

    smith was a bit lazy in college… but he still produced even despite that… if you’re comparing him to fox or ball or some of the other top prospects where the difference in talent is close… i can see rating him behind those guys because of that….

    but if you’re comparing him to monk or ntilikina? when the talent gap is that large… you should accept all the warts that come with it…

    Rubio is really a key for us this offseason (plus obviously hitting on #8). He makes us much much better right away. Plus he speaks European.

    I think the fact that point guard defense is so lacking in today’s NBA makes it more valuable to the team that can defend the position – especially in a PG-centric era. The Moneyball philosophy would try to exploit this dynamic at a time when teams clearly aren’t valuing it as much. Look at the value guys like Beverley and Lowry brought to their respective teams on the defensive side alone.

    I will just leave this stat here:

    Rubio passed to KAT 1,337 times in 2016-17. D-Rose passed to Porzingis 638 times. #Knicks @EliteSportsNY https://t.co/cex5Kf94Ps— Chip Murphy (@ChipperMurphy) June 5, 2017

    I haven’t see the recent data, but I remember when people were first analyzing the data on passing and assists and someone did a report that demonstrated that Rubio’s passing is of much higher quality than average.

    In other words, if some random PG dishes to Porzingis and he hits a jumper that’s every much an assist as if Rubio threads the needle and hits KAT for a dunk. The difference is that Rubio’s passes lead to way more of those really easy baskets. He helps his teammates more.

    Can someone please explain why Minn would sign and trade for Rose? I thought that was usually done because your current team can give you 1 more year; that’s not the case here. If Minn wants him, why wouldn’t they just sign him as a FA? Why give us something?

    And, am I crazy thinking that Minn has no reason to trade Rubio for Lee?

    i think the reason pg defense is lacking is because pgs are usually the primary ballhandlers and so they get neutralized by screens and by some of the best offensive talent we’ve had at the position ever…

    if you’re going up against cp3 or curry… you might want george hill in some instances… but i would much rather have harden even tho defensively the gap between them is massive….

    In other words, if some random PG dishes to Porzingis and he hits a jumper that’s every much an assist as if Rubio threads the needle and hits KAT for a dunk. The difference is that Rubio’s passes lead to way more of those really easy baskets. He helps his teammates more.

    I believe it.

    Can someone please explain why Minn would sign and trade for Rose? I thought that was usually done because your current team can give you 1 more year; that’s not the case here. If Minn wants him, why wouldn’t they just sign him as a FA? Why give us something?

    And, am I crazy thinking that Minn has no reason to trade Rubio for Lee?

    It all comes down to whether Minnesota is just really stupid. Since they wanted to trade Rubio for Rose last year, there is a chance that they are, in fact, just dumb. In which case they would do the deal because they want to dumb Rubio’s salary and get Rose…because they are dumb.

    @ 17 – well, if Thibs was interested in Rose and is not interested in Rubio plus Rubio wants out, then a sign and trade will mean they get Rose and get rid of Rubio.

    If they just sign Rose outright, they still have to trade Rubio. Which everyone assumes is going to be easy and yet they weren’t able to do so at the trade deadline this year. If better offers are available for Rubio then yes, they could just do a trade with him and sign Rose outright. But if Phil is willing to do a sign and trade, Rose wants to go there, Rubio wants out and wants to go to NYC and Thibs wants Rubio gone, then it could be an easy solution for everyone.

    Also there are A LOT of PGs available this free agency period, which might make it harder for Thibs to find a willing trade partner for Rubio. When you consider how many PGs are available in free agency and how many teams are actually looking for a starting PG, the list of potential trade teams for Rubio could be pretty small. If a deal was close for Rubio/Rose this trade deadline, this could happen.

    if you’re going up against cp3 or curry… you might want george hill in some instances… but i would much rather have harden even tho defensively the gap between them is massive….

    If the only choice is that extreme why not go for broke and ask for Chris Paul?

    Lee Nailon was a power forward. Dennis is a point guard. Smith can rebound and get steals, even if he’s clueless on defense that’s something you can live with if he’s a terrific offensive PG. If he was a good defender he’d be the first pick in the draft.

    I know Lee Nailon was a power forward but he was a shitty defensive player. Next time I’ll make a more like for like comparison to avoid this being pointed it out to me.

    Also his terrific offense didn’t help his team performing well below projections this year. Considering his minutes load he had a large hand in that. Doesn’t mean he’s undraftable, but it’s probably something that should be considered and weighted more than just assuming he’s all of a sudden going to play with more effort at the next level, or hoping he can become so good on offense that it won’t matter.

    Just another periodic reminder that the offense which Golden State is blowing Cleveland away with is a modified Triangle offense. And I know, they have great players running it but the point is that they run it because it yields historic results. Ask Kevin Durant if he prefers playing in that system or the one he played in with Oklahoma City.

    i would watch the duke game they played where nc state won… it’s pretty clear that he carried the majority of the load because his teammates sucked… and despite that smith singlehandedly beat them…

    the tallest guy i think was 6 ft 7… and none of them could hit a three… it was dennis smith and a bunch of rec league’ers…

    and yes ideally you want effort to be present in all of your prospects… but there’s a point in time where talent trumps all those questions…. would you pick jason smith ahead of whiteside because smith has a better effort level? i certainly hope not.. and i’m saying the talent gap between smith and monk/ntilikina/mitchell et al… is that wide…

    There have been rumors that Minny wants to deal Rubio for about 2 years now. Why have they not made a deal, then? Asking for too much? Getting lowballed? I remember reading about rumors of him going to Detroit or Sacramento, but nothing ever got done.

    There were mixed rumors at the last trade deadline about the supposed Rubio for Rose swap. One was that Phil was holding out for more. Phil haters can grab onto that one. However, the other is that the Wolves backed out at the last moment, which actually fits the “all talk but no action” Wolves narrative better.

    If a deal can be made, I hope the Knicks send back some salary so that they can still make a deal for a mid 1st from someone like Detroit or Portland, and that would likely mean taking back significant salary. A Rubio for Lee deal seems to make sense for both teams. Until/unless the Knicks renounce Rose, there’s a chance that that swap could be revisited.

    Getting Rubio makes SO much sense. That and perhaps going with a dual/trio point or combo guards suits the modern variant of the triangle/motion pace-and-space offense most teams play.

    With that in mind, drafting either/and Frank, DSJ and Donovan to go with Rubio while resigning Holiday would serve to advance the O, D, and the transition game.

    The extra passing and scoring that’d probably result would, ironically enough, serve to energize the defensive effort (the lack of which was probably the single largest reason the large drop off from the prior season).

    It all comes down to whether Minnesota is just really stupid

    Finding organizations stupider than our own is the proverbial needle in the haystack, although Sacramento and Orlando give us decent competition.

    The alleged Rubio-Rose sign-and-trade doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Rubio has his flaws, but he played better than league average ball in 2400+ minutes last year. Rubio’s remaining contract is 2/29, so it isn’t onerous. It would be a straight salary dump by the Wolves, a truly baffling instance of poor asset management. Surely the Wolves could flip Rubio for SOMETHING if they are truly keen to move him and sign Derrick Rose for some reason.

    and yes ideally you want effort to be present in all of your prospects… but there’s a point in time where talent trumps all those questions…. would you pick jason smith ahead of whiteside because smith has a better effort level? i certainly hope not.. and i’m saying the talent gap between smith and monk/ntilikina/mitchell et al… is that wide…

    I don’t think the gap is that wide, but if it was then I’d expect his team to not have been one of the biggest disappointments in college basketball. There could be a lot of extenuating circumstances there, but his effort, demeanor and the team performance is a major reason he went from consensus top-3 to mid lottery range.

    How much you weight all of those factors is obviously subjective. If we drafted him at 8 I certainly would be fairly happy about it, but I’d also harbor concerns about how good our defense would be with him running the show.

    @ 31 – I mean how many years is NC State good at basketball? Most years they suck, right? And that’s in the ACC, a tough conference. I’m pretty sure if you took the second tier players from Kentucky, Duke, UNC, UCLA, etc….they would all be WAY better than DSJr’s teammates.

    I mean, it seems our only hope here is that Thibs is stupid. They would be better off signing Rose as a FA and trading Rubio for a few 2nd rounders than doing a sign and trade w/ us, unless we are giving something else as well. I like the idea, it just doesn’t seem highly likely.

    Re: Dennis Smith Jr.’s D, how many teams in the league wish they had drafted Isaiah Thomas at #8, despite his below-average defense?

    Steph Curry, James Harden, and Kyrie Irving are not DPOY candidates either. Neither was Steve Nash. IMHO, due to the P&R-based spread the floor no hand-checking world of today’s NBA, at the PG position, great offense is more valuable than great defense.

    The alleged Rubio-Rose sign-and-trade doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Rubio has his flaws, but he played better than league average ball in 2400+ minutes last year. Rubio’s remaining contract is 2/29, so it isn’t onerous. It would be a straight salary dump by the Wolves, a truly baffling instance of poor asset management. Surely the Wolves could flip Rubio for SOMETHING if they are truly keen to move him and sign Derrick Rose for some reason.

    This is what I think about Thibs and this Rubio thing. I think Thibs thinks he can make any team a good defensive team once he gets his hooks into them. I don’t think he really wants a player like Rubio on the offensive end at the PG position. That seems dumb to us, of course, but look at the PGs he’s had throughout his career –> Rose, Nate Robinson, John Lucas III, Aaron Brooks etc. and even though those guys all stink defensively, Thibs was able to consistently deliver a top 10 defense with his system. What he wants out of a PG is shot creation because he’s not creative enough offensively to have his system do it for him.

    So from Thibs’s perspective, Rubio only brings things that he doesn’t think are that useful. He’s a good defender, but Thibs doesn’t need a good PG defender for his system to work. And while Rubio is a great passer, he suffers in terms of creating his own shot.

    And as to why they can’t trade him — PG is a very strong position in the NBA now. There really aren’t many teams that have a need for a PG that makes $15MM/year — especially one that can’t shoot. We happen to be one of the teams that doesn’t have anyone better, or similarly productive that isn’t making less or is younger or etc.

    You know who should try and get him rather than sending 2 top 10 picks for De’Aaron Fox? Sacramento. Sac should trade for Rubio, draft a wing at #5, and Zach Collins at 10.

    Yeah this is what peeps don’t get with the Rose for Rubio swap.

    1. Rose has played for Thibs (and played well).
    2. There are lots of good PGs out there. Not a lot of teams need one and if they do, there’s gonna be options this free agency.
    3. Thibs doesn’t want Rubio and while you would think he’d do a trade to get assets, he might view rose as an asset and would rather swap their salaries than take on Rose and still have to get rid of Rubio.

    But hey, if he wants Lee instead, that works too. The important thing is for us to get Rubio. we need him. The euro connection makes it too good of a fit and he’s the type of PG that KP needs. Plus he is still pretty young and I think he might just be entering his prime. Maybe he finally ups that 3 point shooting a little bit and boom, now we gotta good player for the next 2 years. If we want to sign him after that, he would still be in his prime and could be a part of a KP led future, at least the first half of it.

    Phil needs to make this happen. If he gets Rubio and somehow lands one of those Portland picks, that could be huge. 2 first round picks, 2 second round picks and Ricky Rubio would be a nice start to our rebuild (plus trading Melo)

    sacto wants Fox not rubio… we should be blowing up the phones with the lakers to trade melo for deng and swap picks then call sacto to trade our lakers 2nd for their 5 and 10…draft isaac and ntilinka. done.

    Dream off season.

    Rose for Rubio swap.
    Draft Nikilitina/Monk.DSJr with 8th pick
    Make Portland deal to get #20 pick (#15 might be stretching it).
    Trade Lee to Detroit (SVG connection with Lee) for #12 pick (ok this might be a pipe dream but hey).
    Trade Melo to Clippers for Rivers, Crawford and future unprotected pick.

    8th pick, 12th pick, 20th pick, 2 second round picks plus Rubio, Rivers and Crawford.

    Call it a motherfuckin’ day. Light a spliff Phil.

    Sacto was rumored to be interested in flipping Gay for Rubio, but then Gay blew out his Achilles. Them wanting Fox is potentially good for the Knicks, but also very good for Philly.

    im not buying the rose for rubio pitch since minny turned that down at the deadline and can sign him outright… and all of a sudden there is no market for rubio, come on guys

    If Phil had an offseason like that I would personally deliver his peyote to him whenever asked

    JK 47 @29

    You’re assuming Minn sees Rubio as an asset. If they don’t, then a straight salary dump, which a Rose S&T represents, would appear highly viable.

    It would be a straight salary dump by the Wolves, a truly baffling instance of poor asset management. Surely the Wolves could flip Rubio for SOMETHING if they are truly keen to move him and sign Derrick Rose for some reason.

    They can sign Rose as a FA and keep Rubio or they can sign Rose as a FA and trade Rubio to improve the bench. The latter option would be dependent on the offers they are getting. It may not be likely, but it’s possible they are not thinking in those terms. They may be thinking they can get the PG they want for now (Rose) without taking on a large salary to replace Rubio and then fill out the bench in free agency with exactly what they want and need.

    In any analysis, you can’t forget that Cap Space is also an asset. Sometimes it’s more valuable than the player you have and/or the players you can get in a trade. It all depends on the players, salaries, and needs.

    drafting three picks and signing Jrue holiday would also be an excellent offseason punctuated by moving melo before the deadline

    @32

    They didn’t have lofty projections this year, but they were projected to finish middle of the conference and in the tournament. They ended up t-12th worst in a 14 team conference, missed the tourney altogether and got eliminated in their first go in the conference tournament to boot in a game where Smith was not engaged at all.

    Re: Dennis Smith Jr.’s D, how many teams in the league wish they had drafted Isaiah Thomas at #8, despite his below-average defense?

    Steph Curry, James Harden, and Kyrie Irving are not DPOY candidates either. Neither was Steve Nash. IMHO, due to the P&R-based spread the floor no hand-checking world of today’s NBA, at the PG position, great offense is more valuable than great defense.

    You realize all of those guys played on teams that performed much better in college and didn’t embarrass themselves so bad that the coach got fired? Did I ever say that because he’s not DPOY level he shouldn’t be considered? He was an awful, low effort defender that looked like a lot like what we saw from Derrick Rose last year with some steals. That’s better than Rose, but still really bad.

    I also said I’d be fine with the Knicks picking him, so even given the concerns I’m not oblivious to his talent, I’m just not of the opinion there’s a massive gulf between him and some other prospects that may be available to us at No. 8.

    @ 40 – there were 2 rumors involving the Rose/Rubio swap. The first is the they turned it down bc Phil was trying to get more than just Rubio. The second rumor is they turned it down bc the other execs convinced Thibs not to do it. It could be a little of both. If Phil is willing to back off wanting more and Thibs still wants him, now might be the time to do it.

    whether Thibs likes Rubio or not is no reason not to try to get something for him! dude was 5th in the league in assists last year. We are talking about trading Lee or KOQ for a first rounder…..Rubio is WAY better and more valuable than either of them. You guys are crazy to think Minn would just straight out dump him.

    Now, a sign and trade, Rubio for Rose and KOQ, or for Rose and 2 2nd rounders, maybe.

    I’m aware of the rumors, how does that give us leverage?
    Can we sign rose to a contract no one else can?

    Can we sign rose to a contract no one else can?

    No. I mean, if the Knicks can get the Wolves to hand us Rubio for absolutely nothing– like say a heavily protected 2nd rounder that never gets conveyed, then that’s a big fucking hooray from me. That would presume that Rubio on a 2/29 contract is utterly worthless to any other team in the NBA, and I don’t believe that.

    Windhorst reported that in the trade discussions for Rubio, Minnesota was pushing for a pick

    “If this trade went down, and it’s a big if, this would not be to invest in Derrick Rose at all,” he said. “Derrick Rose would simply satisfy the NBA trade rules. The trade would be to get rid of Ricky Rubio, forget about how (Rose would) fit. That’s not why the Wolves would be doing the trade.”

    Windhorst said that is why the Wolves also are trying to get a draft pick in return from the Knicks.

    http://www.1500espn.com/wolves-2/2017/02/zulgad-wolves-interest-rose-based-desire-move-rubio/

    Maybe Jax is scouring for a 1st from Portland, so that he can throw it into the Rubio deal, duh…

    Some people are missing the point about cap space.

    If Rubio was literally given away to some team under the cap and the T-Wolves got zero for him, they would then have more cap space than before because they are below the cap. They could then use that extra cap space to sign FAs to fill the needs of the team.

    Those new players would be the assets they got in the transaction for Rubio.

    You are NEVER getting back nothing in a transaction if it opens up immediate extra cap space. You are not even getting back nothing if it opens up cap space sooner. The trick is to determine which is more valuable to you, the player you do have, the players you can get in a trade, or the players you can sign in FA using that extra cap space.

    Windhorst reported that in the trade discussions for Rubio, Minnesota was pushing for a pick

    It was also reported that it was Jackson that initially balked because he wanted more than just Rubio for Rose.

    When I heard jac wanted more for Rubio I thought it was a smokescreen. Then in the 11th hour he was “willing to do an even swap”

    There was no deal to be made. They wanted our first and we wisely held out

    If Rubio was literally given away to some team under the cap and the T-Wolves got zero for him, they would then have more cap space than before because they are below the cap. They could then use that extra cap space to sign FAs to fill the needs of the team.

    Again, this is assuming that Rubio is completely unmovable and has literally zero or negative value. Because instead of just dumping him for ONLY cap space, the Wolves could likely dump him for assets PLUS the resulting cap space. I don’t think that a 26-year old PG who just played 2,400 minutes of better than league average ball is as completely worthless as some here seem to believe.

    I mean, if the Knicks are on the positive end of a trade with a team that has a soul-crushingly awful approach to asset management, well then hooray to that. Sign me up for “Rubio for absolutely nothing” anytime. I just don’t see it happening.

    forget rubio, he will never be a knick

    +1

    Let’s move on from this. It would be great to have him playing here, but he’s not coming for free. This is just our one-sided fan trade fantasy.

    Would you guys be happy if we traded, I don’t know, KOQ (a player who our F.O. is not very high) for nothing just to open cap space?

    @JK47 – if reports can be believed, Minnesota has been trying to move Rubio for a couple years now. Apparently they don’t like the offers they’re getting. For most teams he would be a backup point guard. In normal NBA offenses, it seems like it’s just hard to function properly with a PG that can’t shoot. So your pool of potential trade partners is limited right off the bat to teams that are ok with having a PG who can’t shoot. Then of the teams that are ok with that, they have to not already have another PG that is better, younger, or cheaper. Then of those, you have to find someone who is willing to pay Rubio $15MM/year.

    Off the top of my head, the only teams who don’t have a starting PG better than Rubio (or who aren’t grooming someone to be better than Rubio) are:

    NYK
    DET
    SAC
    ORL
    DAL
    PHI
    CHI
    DEN
    BKN if you don’t believe in Lin

    Now of those:
    DET already is paying Reggie Jackson ($15MM) and Ish Smith ($6MM) huge money. I don’t see how they add another PG making 8 figures.

    SAC is going to draft their PG of the future this year.

    ORL has Elfrid Payton who is probably equal to Rubio but much cheaper, and can also draft their PG of the future.

    DAL – could be a spot for him I guess

    PHI – they have a whole team of non-shooters and Simmons will be the main ball handler

    CHI – could be a spot for him, although they have all-world Jerian Grant on a rookie salary

    DEN – offense runs through Jokic, although they could be a spot for him if they’ve completely lost confidence in Mudiay

    BKN – they have Lin who is cheaper, and Atkinson’s offense is built around a penetrating scoring PG

    So you see – there just aren’t many spots where Rubio is a feasible possibility at $15MM/year.

    Just to be clear, we can’t take Rubio in a deal for rose (even in the unlikely event thibs is dumb enough to offer) and also absorb salary in a Portland deal. We only have any space to absorb salary if we renounce rose…

    A bit of chat today about butler wanting Melo in Chicago. This makes a ton of sense to me. Surely Melo would ok a deal to play with rondo, wade and butler?

    If we wait until July 1 we can very nearly trade him into their space for the 14th pick and a bunch of young players – portis, valentine and Payne. They might have to get creative to free up another small bit of space

    Of we did that, then we actually could acquire both Rubio and an honerous portland contract…

    If that doesn’t work for Chicago we could also take back Lopez and send them KOQ – something like Lopez, Portis and 14 for Melo and Kyle. We could probably then flip Lopez for an asset…

    I’d do either trade in a flash.

    I hate typing quickly on a phone. I am aware onerous does not start with an h…

    In a tweet that was reported on hoopshype… not sure who by, will see if I can find it.

    He (butler) was also quoted implying that he thought the Bulls should look at it back at the deadline.

    Rubio is also disgruntled. He wants out. That can help to facilitate a deal.

    this just in… ‘according to knickerblogger.com’ rubio is disgruntled and wants out!

    @71 Mase he is. He hired a new agent just to facilitate his exit from Minny. Do you doubt me?

    Phil Jackson is a genius! Did you know mase that he had dinner last evening with one Dennis Smith Jr.? He is probably already turning him into a defensive stopper as we speak. He’s already an anklebreaker with extra knee ligaments.

    ah, fuck. @DWolfsonKSTP on 1500: got a text saying ricky chose new agent based on who would get him out of MN. balls.— Gabby Dearth (@the_real_gabby) May 17, 2017

    Convinced?

    mase, if you do a little research you can find these things on your own.

    @78 I might be a troll (I might not either), but I don’t lie.

    @82 The tweet is 2 weeks old, though. Take the average and you’ve got something.

    that article is 6 months old

    LOL. Getting information from Reub is like listening to the homeless guy in your neighborhood who reads old newspapers.

    I mean, Jrue Holiday is probably going to get some ridiculous multi-year $100M+ contract, and that guy is not a world-beater. Seriously NOBODY wants Rubio at 2/29?

    Okay, whatever guys! This is apparently some sort of new reality, where other teams just give us useful players for absolutely nothing. I like this new reality!

    The tweet is 2 weeks old. Philmelo changes his name more often than his underwear. Who are you going to believe?

    2 days ago:

    “Meanwhile, Thibodeau’s rebuilding plan doesn’t seem to include Rubio at all. He drafted Kris Dunn with the fifth overall selection in the 2016 NBA Draft presumably to take over for Rubio when the time is right. New Rubio trade rumors have sprouted on what seems like a weekly basis since Thibodeau took over.”

    http://www.canishoopus.com/2017/6/5/15742942/ricky-rubio-wants-more-influence-in-timberwolves-organization-thibodeau

    For you, Philmelo, that’s only 48 hours ago.

    Why is a rose for Rubio swap so absurd?

    Is minnesota an awesome playoff team? Nope.

    Just be we got sick of watching Rose not pass doesnt mean other teams wouldn’t value his scoring. Maybe after 2 years of watching Rubio brick jumpers Thibs is fine and wants his dawg Rose back to help the bench score. That could be misguided but to act like the twolves have all this talent that we don’t is stupid. We have basically the same record.

    Reub, I would say that tweet proves that Rubio has great value, especially in the eyes of Minn’s fans, since the tweeter uses the word “balls” in reaction to the news.

    Mr. Met doesn’t possess any extra knee ligaments.

    Okay, whatever guys! This is apparently some sort of new reality, where other teams just give us useful players for absolutely nothing. I like this new reality!

    In general, I agree, but hey, Minnesota might seriously be that dumb. Just two years ago, Sacramento traded a future first round pick and the rights to swap first round picks in 2016 and 2017 so that they could clear out cap space to sign Rajon Rondo and Marco Belinelli (the Knicks weren’t interested in that deal because they needed their cap space to sign Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams). Teams sometimes are just dumb. Thibs is a fine coach, but as a GM, he’s been Doc Rivers-esque so far. So there is a real chance that they just really want to dump Rubio badly. It’s possible!

    My position at the deadline was that there is zero chance that Minny gives away a productive player for the decaying corpse of Derrick Rose. My new position is the same except now they could acquire the decaying corpse of Derrick Rose without giving up said productive player.

    I would looooove to be wrong, but it ain’t happenin’.

    That’s if you’re looking at it logically. Thibs might not be looking at it logically. Logically no one would give Joakim Noah a four-year/$72 million contract. Somethings logic doesn’t win out. We should hold out hope that this is one of those times that logic doesn’t win out!

    Who knows, but I doubt Minny would deal Rubio for just cap space. They want something.

    I would not give them the #8 pick or any future first rounder. Now, second rounders are up for grabs, as is anyone not named Porzingis or Hernangomez.

    If we are going to give any credit to the article posted by Reub, Thibs “Big 3” are KAT, Wiggins and LaVine, so we can forget the Rubio/Lee trade.

    Now let’s just hope that Thibs is the dumbest GM in the league and trade us one of his best players for free!

    But he might be! He really might be! That’s why we have hope (for now).

    It is a fact that there are people out there who are definitely dumber than we are. That’s a certainty.

    Apparently late first round picks are not valued very highly by the smart GMs, for example Morey. So the top teams may be the ones to target. I could see g state being a nice place for O’quinn or Lee if they lose Mcgee or iggy.
    I can’t see Frank Mason or Juwan Evans not being at least good backup pgs, just to name 2 guys worth a dart throw who won’t last til the knicks at #44.

    Yeah, if you’re already a good team, late first rounders are pains in the ass because they eat up roster spots and are guaranteed money that can hurt your cap space. However, with the expanded roster this season, I bet you won’t see teams looking to get rid of late firsts like they have in the past.

    If we want Rubio then lets trade cap space + a 2018 top 20 protected 1st that becomes a 2nd if higher than 20. Most likely we won’t be that good next year and if we are Rubio probably was great for us and easily worth a pick in the 20s. This gets Thibs his “asset” so he’s not seen as throwing away Rubio. Kind of like the fake 1st Dallas gave up for Noel.

    Riley – who I think we’d all agree is a good GM – made some comments in the media the other day about trades. Hell he was saying he looks for trades that work for both sides and will go the extra nickel to complete them when he finds them.

    I thought that was really interesting because a lot of fans see trading as a zero sum game where the goal is to ‘win’ – and while clearly sometimes teams win trades they can definitely be positive sum. Us trading Lee to a contender for a first rounder is just a good deal all round in my view.

    Unfortunately Dolan seems to think like a fan not like Riley if reports from a few years back that he pulled the plug on the Lowry trade because ‘he didn’t want to look like he lost to Masai again’ are to be believed…

    Thibs can’t be the dumbest GM in the league…….

    I mean, he spent 8 years learning the NBA as a Knicks assistant coach, so he certainly has the pedigree for dumbness.

    @jk47

    Again, this is assuming that Rubio is completely unmovable and has literally zero or negative value. Because instead of just dumping him for ONLY cap space, the Wolves could likely dump him for assets PLUS the resulting cap space. I don’t think that a 26-year old PG who just played 2,400 minutes of better than league average ball is as completely worthless as some here seem to believe.

    I think you are still missing the point about the value of cap space.

    Scenario #1. Minny trades Rubio and gets back a player you would clearly be happy with. Let’s call him “solid player x”.

    Scenario #2. Minny gives Rubio away to a team with a lot of cap space and get NOTHING back! They dump his sorry ass for NADA! However, now that’s he off the books they have an extra 14 million of cap space. Then in free agency they sign “solid player y” (who you also love) to a contract equal to what Rubio was making.

    There’s absolutely no difference between those 2 scenarios. In both cases Rubio is gone, Minny has a solid player that you would approve of, and the cap space is unchanged at the end.

    Cap space is an asset. Whether that cap space is more or less valuable than a player is dependent on how good that players is relative to his contract size, who is available in a trade for him, and who is available in free agency. I don’t think many teams consider Rubio’s contract a screaming value because PGs that can’t shoot are not in high demand these days. That’s why Minny hasn’t been able to trade him yet.

    go to part 2

    Part 2.

    Let’s make up another theoretical scenario.

    Let’s say we have the opportunity to give Melo away to a team with a lot of space and get NOTHING back for him.

    Should we do it?

    The correct answer is “it depends”.

    If we are getting 26m of extra cap space from the move, the answer would probably be yes. Most of us think Melo’s contract is not very attractive. We could probably spend that 26m in free agency this year and get players that would add more wins than Melo does. So giving him away would be a net plus.

    However

    If it was a terrible free agency market and there was no one we wanted to acquire long term, then the answer would be “no” because Melo will be off the books soon anyway. He may even opt out after next season. Why give him away only to sign even worse deals.

    However

    If we could trade him and get back Jae Crowder, a good pick, and an expiring contract, then it wouldn’t make sense to give him away because that deal is probably more attractive than anything we could get in free agency.

    I would gladly give Melo away for cap space if there were no attractive deals available for him. I might even give away a 2nd round pick just to get that 26 million of cap space now if there was a specific free agent I wanted and thought I could land.

    You have to weigh each of the options. Sometimes giving away a player for nothing is a good option if it creates space that you can filler better or if you don’t want your team to go over the cap.

    Who knows, but I doubt Minny would deal Rubio for just cap space. They want something.

    This is the more likely scenario, but IF there are financial constraints in Minny (which is one of the reasons they might want to move Rubio to begin with), the thinking changes. They would not be giving him away. They would be swapping him and keeping their budget flat instead of increasing it by signing Rose in free agency.

    Strat, I just saw you like to frequent Saratoga during racing season. I live 25 from the track. I might also have to move now that I know Jowles has a house in Lake Luzerne. Kidding… Be cool to do a Knicks track day if you come up. I’ll wear my John Starks jersey.

    Strat, I just saw you like to frequent Saratoga during racing season. I live 25 from the track. I might also have to move now that I know Jowles has a house in Lake Luzerne. Kidding… Be cool to do a Knicks track day if you come up. I’ll wear my John Starks jersey.

    I’ll be at Belmont Saturday and will make at least 2 trips to Saratoga this summer. When we get closer to the meet I may know which weekends. Remind me.

    @106

    People forget that FOs are not just competitors but also colleagues with professional relationships to maintain

    It won’t stop any franchise from completely pantsing the Knicks in any trades but continued good faith negotiation between two franchises leads to better working relationships and probably more trades in the future

    And man, I miss upstate NY in the summer. Minnesota is beautiful, especially up near the Canadian border in the Duluth/Grand Marias area, but nothing beats a trip up to the adirondacks or the upper Hudson valley

    Hopefully I’ll end up back in New York for doctoral work after I complete my masters in atlanta

    Chad Ford’s latest mock has us taking Monk with Smith still available. He doesn’t have any Knicks sources, does he?

    He does not iirc

    We didn’t work out Smith today we just talked w him apparently

    Just after showing his indestructibility lebron goes down hard after being blindsided by his own man.

    Yeah, if you’re already a good team, late first rounders are pains in the ass because they eat up roster spots and are guaranteed money that can hurt your cap space. However, with the expanded roster this season, I bet you won’t see teams looking to get rid of late firsts like they have in the past.

    The extra roster spots teams will have this year come with two way contracts where they get paid $75,000 a year when they are in D-League and $275,000 when they are in the NBA. The 30th pick this year gets a base salary of from 80% to 120% of $1,162,100. I don’t see how you can draft in the first round and then use one of the expanded roster spots for him (although you can, of course ask him to play in D-League, you just have to pay him more). Is this correct? Second round picks do not have guaranteed salaries so I am sure you can use one of the expanded roster spots on them as long as they agree to the salary. To me this means that for many teams, having pick #31 will be much more valuable than having pick #30.

    Lebron at center is really smart

    So you come back home and you hold them to 39 instead of 40. SMH. They will get an extra point added after they review Lebron’s three though.

    Silky upstate has sucked this spring it has rained almost everyday for the past two months. I have a friend in Minnesota and he’s loving it out there.

    @120 From what I remember hearing, you cannot put a drafted player on a two-way contract, only undrafted players.

    Can you find a source for that rule? All I can find is “Anyone with three years or fewer NBA service.” is eligible for a two way contract. I think there could be a lot of stress between agents for second round picks and teams this summer. The agents are used to their picks getting signed by the drafting team and thus getting an NBA minimum salary, which will be $562,493 next season. I am sure that some teams will have second round picks and not want to use one of their 15 slots for their pick, which means the player and agent will both get much less money.

    I can’t find a source on it, however, I don’t think a second rounder would want that kind of contract, they’d most likely head overseas instead of accept that kind of contract, but we’ll see.

    Watching the 4th quarter of game 3 on my phone in my lunch break. These are the kind of games you want to see in the Finals!!!

    Yeah, so Harrsion Barnes’ replacement is pretty good at basketball.

    Sorry, KD, it wasn’t Game 7 of the NBA Finals, so you’re still not clutch.

    If I’m Cleveland I’m looking to move Love for a really good three and d wing plus some bench help. Swap Love for Crowder and Smart then add a veteran or two chasing a ring and you might win a few games against GS. Of course Love for Melo would work too!

    Brutal finish. Cleveland shit the bed bad. Went away from attacking the rim and totally butchered that last 40 seconds. KD was ice on that 3 to put them up.

    JR tweeted “Cavs in 7” and then deleted it

    I love JR

    LeBron was +7 in 46 minutes and his team lost by five.

    imagine how much better KD would be if he had the heart of a champion

    To be successful in the NBA you should know how to value money. Cavs are paying jr smith the same salary as steph curry. Tristan Thompson salary is same with green and yes, Melo salary is same with KD and lbj. That’s a glaring problem.

    That said: does Curry get a bigger offer if is ankles weren’t made of glass early on in his career? In a break through Championship year, you would say those Cleveland contracts are worth it, but still a valid point you make on asset and monetary value.

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