Knicks Morning News (2017.03.07)

  • [SNY Knicks] Anthony-less Knicks rally in fourth quarter to beat Magic, 113-105
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 10:09:37 PM)

    Courtney Lee scored 18 points, Lance Thomas added 17 and the New York Knicks used a big fourth quarter to rally past the Orlando Magic, 113-105 on Monday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose playing through eye issue
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 9:06:49 PM)

    New York Knicks guard Derrick Rose is playing through an eye issue after getting elbowed in Sunday’s game and is choosing to not wear protective goggles on the court.

  • [SNY Knicks] Daily News Live: Was Carmelo Anthony benched after his comments?
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 5:49:01 PM)

    Was Carmelo Anthony benched by Jeff Hornacek in retaliation for his comments

  • [SNY Knicks] Timeout with Taylor Rooks: Steve Smith on Oakley drama, Phil, and the triangle
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 3:35:17 PM)

    On the latest edition of Timeout with Taylor Rooks, former NBA guard and NBA TV analyst Steve Smith sits down with Taylor to discuss the biggest names in the NBA.

  • [SNY Knicks] Anthony won’t play Monday against Magic due to sore left knee
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 5:42:49 PM)

    New York Knicks forward Carmelo Anthony won’t play in Monday’s road game against the Orlando Magic.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks begin four-game road trip against Orlando
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 5:06:30 PM)

    After a home loss to the Golden State Warriors on Sunday, the New York Knicks face the Orlando Magic on the road Monday at 7 p.m.

  • [SNY Knicks] Joakim Noah to begin strengthening work on Monday
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 12:00:35 PM)

    Knicks C Joakim Noah said he is walking without a limp and has started the rehabilitation process following last month’s knee surgery.

  • [SNY Knicks] 3 Keys: balanced PG play, Kuzminskas, and team chemistry
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 10:15:49 AM)

    In this week’s edition of “3 Keys,” SNY.tv’s Keith Schlosser takes a look at balanced point guard play, Mindaugas Kuzminskas, and how to fix New York’s team chemistry.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks rally to beat Magic without injured Carmelo Anthony
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 11:23:00 PM)

    They opened the fourth on a 23-4 run and pulled away from the Magic, 113-105. It was the Knicks’ first victory without Anthony since the 2014-15 season.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose OK, but sees eye doctor after elbow hits him in left eye
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 7:40:00 PM)

    Derrick Rose saw an eye specialist after Sunday’s game after taking an inadvertent elbow in his left eye from Kristaps Porzingis in the first quarter.

  • [ESPN] Tuesday’s Knicks News: Chasson Randle shines in win over Magic
    (Tuesday, March 07, 2017 4:59:17 AM)

    Tuesday’s Knicks News: Chasson Randle shines in win over Magic

  • [ESPN] Melo out vs. Magic due to left knee soreness
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 6:06:39 PM)

    Melo out vs. Magic due to left knee soreness

  • [NYDN] Knicks win first game without Melo in 2 years, beat Magic 113-105
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 8:40:37 PM)

    For the first time in nearly two years, the Knicks won without Carmelo Anthony.

  • [NYDN] It’s ‘dope’ that Derrick Rose was asked about taking a night off
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 6:46:03 PM)

    Derrick Rose was taken aback by the question. Maybe a little confused.

  • [NYDN] Knicks not tanking, but sit Carmelo Anthony with sore knee
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 6:45:19 PM)

    Nobody called it tanking, of course. It just had the signs and symptoms of a game the Knicks weren’t so desperate to win.

  • [NYDN] Caroline Wozniacki appears to be dating this former Knick
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 2:06:32 PM)

    Tennis star Caroline Wozniacki seems to have officially put Rory McIlroy in the romance rearview mirror, and is cuddling up to an ex-Knick.

  • [NYTimes] Two Bad Injuries, One Good Rookie and the Best N.B.A. Games This Week
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 6:51:41 PM)

    The Spurs travel to Oklahoma City on Thursday as the league marches on without the Warriors’ Kevin Durant and the Sixers’ Joel Embiid.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks 113, Magic 105: Knicks Dominate Fourth Quarter in Comeback
    (Tuesday, March 07, 2017 4:01:46 AM)

    A 23-4 run against the Magic lifted the visiting Knicks, who played without the injured Carmelo Anthony.

  • [NYTimes] New York City Is Recapturing Its College Basketball Heyday
    (Tuesday, March 07, 2017 2:25:05 AM)

    The city will host the Big East tournament and the Atlantic Coast Conference tournament, with the N.C.A.A. tournament following them into town.

  • [NYTimes] Andrew Bogut Breaks Leg in First Minute of Playing With Cavaliers
    (Tuesday, March 07, 2017 4:04:09 AM)

    Bogut was on the court for less than 60 seconds before sustaining a fractured left tibia against the Heat.

  • [NYPost] NC State star would love to learn from Knicks’ Derrick Rose
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 8:52:14 PM)

    The idea of playing for the Knicks intrigued Dennis Smith Jr. But not as much as teaming up with Derrick Rose. That truly appealed to the ACC Rookie of the Year, one of college basketball’s top prospects. “I’m a Derrick Rose fan, so I’m not going to say they need a point guard,” the gifted…

  • [NYPost] MSG legend John Andariese suffering from dementia
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 7:13:51 PM)

    John Andariese, the beloved analyst who became synonymous with Knicks basketball both on television and radio across nearly 40 years in the booth, is suffering from advanced dementia, according to several people close to him. His poor health was brought to light during ABC’s telecast of the Knicks-Warriors game Sunday afternoon, when play-by-play man Mike…

  • [NYPost] Chasson Randle helps his case and hurts tank in Knicks’ rally
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 4:45:30 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — It’s time for more of Chasson Randle in March. It took nearly a week, but Randle finally showed why Brandon Jennings got released. With Carmelo Anthony resting his sore left knee in the locker room, struggling Derrick Rose benched in the fourth quarter and Kristaps Porzingis hounded by foul trouble, the Knicks’…

  • [NYPost] Free-falling Knicks say Carmelo scratched because of his knee
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 3:37:10 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — Carmelo Anthony was really benched. With playoff chances going from pipe dream to plainly preposterous, Anthony sat with a sore left knee in Monday’s 113-105 victory over the Magic Monday, the second leg of a back-to-back. According to Jeff Hornacek, Anthony “wrenched” his knee when running back for a block against the…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose loved hearing every heckler’s ‘harsh’ screams
    (Monday, March 06, 2017 2:45:45 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — Derrick Rose wasn’t complaining like his teammates that the Garden’s first-half experiment of turning off the in-game entertainment Sunday cost them the feel of home-court advantage. In fact, Rose said it was “great’’ and pointed out the strangeness of hearing more of the player trash-talking and the Garden hecklers. In an attempt…

  • 158 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.03.07)”

    Chasson Randle lookef lile a cross between Jeff Teague and Jose Calderon last night. A plus 29. We’re very fortunate to have him on our roster. He and Baker can be part of a fab four with KP and Willy going forward. We’ll be adding our fab five star in this year’s draft.

    Dennis Smith Jr. is a big fan of Derrick Rose’s and looks forward to learning from on the Knicks?

    Ooooooooh, Hell naaaaaaaw.

    Scratch him from the list of PGs we want to draft.

    That was an amazing line from Kawhi last night. Just incredible. 37.5 game score.

    What is Carmelo’s all time high game score?

    I really like Dennis Smith Jr offensively and he gets a lot of steals too. I wouldn’t be surprised if he turned out to be the best PG in the draft.

    What a disastrous win for the Knicks last night. Just brutal. Fell from 6th to 9th. This last few weeks is going to kill me.

    The one thing I’m afraid of Smith is that his ceiling looks to be something like Damian Lillard, and I’m definitely not sure I would want to commit our future to Damian Lillard redux.

    I’d rather take a chance on Fox becoming a star defender and distributor and roll with it, or swing for the fences (thanks Mark Jackson!) on Ntilikina… or obviously Isaac if he’s ever available.

    Smith plays absolutely atrocious D, turns the ball over 4 times per 40 and only shoots 37% from the college 3 and 70% from the line. He’s also slightly undersized. He’s the worst PG prospect in this draft. He also sports the worst WS/48 and BPM of all the PG prospects. Any PG that plays zero D gets a hard pass from me.

    That first step really is something though.

    Nylon calculus did an initial statistical projection of Fultz and Ball and Ball came out on top. Which confirms my eye test and the stats–Ball has been far more productive than Fultz this season. I think he’s the best player in this draft, though I think Fultz will be good.

    Read something the other day that looked at what college stats seem to correlate best with NBA success for wings – and semi-surprisingly, scoring volume but also scoring efficiency was pretty low on the totem pole. Steals, assists, and rebounds seemed far more predictive.

    It’s far from a rigorous statistical analysis, but still semi-interesting.

    Can someone talk me into Isaac?
    I’ve seen him play a few times recently and I see a ridiculously skinny kid being pushed around by guards. He’s not a guard and he doesn’t have a great shot. To me he looks like he’s years away from having an NBA body, and then when/if that happens, he’ll be a free agent.
    I’m not seeing this can’t miss player everyone’s talking about.

    Edit. Me pointing out he doesn’t have the handle of a guard is me trying to head off any Greek Freak comparisons.

    Who was that tall, skinny player from about 10 years back who bounced around the NBA, who every once in awhile would put up a monster game that would have people going nuts?
    The knicks had him for a bit. A Darius Miles type.
    That’s who isaac reminds me of.

    @8

    That’s true enough–scoring volume and efficiency are one of the stats least correlated with NBA productivity. I know you weren’t necessarily talking about him specifically but I think Lonzo Ball is an edge case when it comes to efficiency–he has an absolutely bonkers 68 TS%. It’s Curry esque.

    That could drop by 10 points and still be better than every other PG in the draft.

    I think it’s very important to consider what college stats are the best indicators of NBA productivity, but I think that clear edge cases exist since these models are about what’s generally the case. Lonzo Ball is one of those outliers.

    Who was that tall, skinny player from about 10 years back who bounced around the NBA, who every once in awhile would put up a monster game that would have people going nuts?
    The knicks had him for a bit. A Darius Miles type.
    That’s who isaac reminds me of.

    Jonathan Bender?

    He had a chance to be really good but had a bunch of knee injuries if I remember correctly.

    @9

    I think that’s partially the point: Isaac has yet to grow into his frame and has still managed to be an elite defender and incredibly productive overall. He does everything well on a team where he plays an unjustifiably limited role compared to other top prospects. If he doesn’t grow into his frame, he’s versatile enough to be an NBA rotation player. If he grows into his frame he’ll be a monster.

    Probably the highest upside in this draft.

    You are thinking of Anthony Randolph, maybe. That guy was so frustrating. He was supposed to be the crown jewel of the David leave trade, and the one consolation from us not getting LeBron. Million dollar talent, five cent head

    Berman has conveniently shifted to “Knicks need to tank” mentality.

    So now when they lose to a crap team he can kill them for poor effort, and when they beat a crap team (like last night) he can kill them for blowing the tank.

    For him, it’s win-win.

    Charles Oakley is going to be up in Saratoga Springs on the 25th hanging out watching the NCAA tournament. I think I’m going to go visit him. Should be awesome!

    I’m not sure why people were so high on Anthony Randolph. His numbers have been consistently shit from college onward.

    Tall and skinny factor, I reckon.

    You are thinking of Anthony Randolph, maybe. That guy was so frustrating. He was supposed to be the crown jewel of the David leave trade, and the one consolation from us not getting LeBron. Million dollar talent, five cent head

    Obviously, in the end it is his fault for being such a dumb player, but he is still a great example of how your GM should speak to your coach before acquiring players, as Walsh viewed Randolph as the centerpiece of the David Lee trade while Mike D’Antoni viewed him as an annoying extra player that he couldn’t wait to get rid of. D’Antoni was playing him at the three, for crying out loud!

    Then he was a salary-filler in the Melo trade and Adelman wanted nothing to do with him, either. He then signed with Denver, where George Karl also clearly didn’t want him! If you’re a knuckleheaded young player, those are literally three of the worst coaches to play for, fit-wise. He only missed Byron Scott.

    The entire Donnie Walsh-Mike D’Antoni collaboration made almost no sense by the end. I still don’t understand why Walsh made so many moves that were ill-suited to the philosophy of the basketball coach he hired. The Melo trade was the absolute worst possible trade Donnie could have ever made to support D’Antoni’s system.

    Not that any really pays attention (or should), but crazy line from the Nets game yesterday: Sean Kilpatrick goes 3-5 from the field, but 16 of 17 from the line. 23 points in 28 minutes. The Nets beat the Grizz by 13. Why the heck were they fouling Kilpatrick so much?

    Last time I saw Randolph, he was playing in the Pan American Olympics games with a bunch of D-Leaguers.

    He couldn’t even handle that level of competition. What a waste of potential…

    The Melo trade was the absolute worst possible trade Donnie could have ever made to support D’Antoni’s system.

    Look at Knick ticket prices before they traded for Melo and Knick ticket prices since. Dolan really wanted a star to sell and STAT really wasn’t it.

    I really wish we had the Nets’ front office and coach. I like Hornacek and all, but just look at how the Nets’ young players have progressed. Lin gives Atkinson a ton of credit for his development prior to Linsanity. Kilpatrick was a D-league pickup and is now a legit rotation player. Caris Levert looks good. Brook Lopez has expanded his game shooting 34% from 3 point range on reasonable volume, and has a career high assist rate (by a large margin) — although he still can’t rebound the ball. Spencer Dinwiddie is contributing. And now he has KJ McDaniels, who has all the talent in the world.

    And I do like what Sean Marks is doing too.

    *sigh*

    . Brook Lopez has expanded his game shooting 34% from 3 point range on reasonable volume,

    It really is insane — he went from taking no threes at all, to shooting 5 of them per game. He’s seven feet tall and he shoots as many threes as he gets rebounds.

    Marc Gasol is another 7 footer who has now added the three ball to his repertoire and taken his offensive game to another level. He’s shooting 39% percent while averaging 3.8 attempts a game.

    Who was that tall, skinny player from about 10 years back who bounced around the NBA, who every once in awhile would put up a monster game that would have people going nuts?

    Tim Thomas!

    That’s always been the story, but didn’t Donnie Walsh just recently come out and take responsibility for being the one who pulled the trigger on that deal?

    On the one hand, I don’t believe him, but on the other hand, even if I did believe him that he made the final decision on the offer, it was Dolan who drove the whole pursuit up until that point. So basically, even if Walsh officially signed off on it, he knew it was something his owner was desperate to get done, so while it might have technically been his say, he knew who he was dealing with with Dolan.

    I really wish we had the Nets’ front office and coach. I like Hornacek and all, but just look at how the Nets’ young players have progressed. Lin gives Atkinson a ton of credit for his development prior to Linsanity. Kilpatrick was a D-league pickup and is now a legit rotation player. Caris Levert looks good. Brook Lopez has expanded his game shooting 34% from 3 point range on reasonable volume, and has a career high assist rate (by a large margin) — although he still can’t rebound the ball. Spencer Dinwiddie is contributing. And now he has KJ McDaniels, who has all the talent in the world.

    And I do like what Sean Marks is doing too.

    *sigh*

    Oh yeah, they have so little talent but I wouldn’t be shocked if they ended up having a brighter future than the Knicks due to their staffing decisions. Also, not for nothing, but Atkinson planned on running the entire offense around Lin and then Lin missed most of the season, so the Nets likely aren’t this bad. They just lost the one guy that they couldn’t bear to lose.

    So basically, even if Walsh officially signed off on it, he knew it was something his owner was desperate to get done, so while it might have technically been his say, he knew who he was dealing with with Dolan.

    Yeah, but this rationalization is conveniently overlooking that the entire point of Donnie’s tenure as an NBA appointed Knicks GM was to finally be the guy who could and would say no to Dolan when push came to shove.

    @32 thx for that link.

    I read this sentence and started to weep uncontrollably.

    Lin scored more points over his first five starts (136) than any player since the NBA–ABA merger.

    @36

    Yeah, its a terrific article. So many great nuggets from there like this one:

    Duhon, whose most memorable NBA moment is dancing in response to a travel call, is the Knicks’ single-game assist record holder, with 22 against the Warriors in November 2008. Based purely on that, Mike D’Antoni should go to the hall of fame.

    Or this:

    Two games later, against the Raptors on the road, game tied at 87, he [Lin] cleared everyone out for a game winner that was so hero ball they’ll talk about it in Valhalla.

    And this, my alltime favorite:

    Never forget that after surviving Allen Iverson and Rasheed Wallace, Larry Brown was finally broken by Marbury.

    Yeah, but this rationalization is conveniently overlooking that the entire point of Donnie’s tenure as an NBA appointed Knicks GM was to finally be the guy who could and would say no to Dolan when push came to shove.

    That was the intent but it was also pretty clearly not the case right from the start.

    netw3rk’s stuff is always great, and that article was no exception. Billups, though, should have been in the top ten. Certainly over later Felton, Rose or Baker.

    That was the intent but it was also pretty clearly not the case right from the start.

    Are you going to support this statement?

    The Ringer article ends on an interestingly foreboding point:

    There are five solid point guard prospects in this year’s draft. New York is projected to select around 10 or 11, which would place them in a position to select France’s Frank Ntilikina. Who knows if they will. The biggest question for any incoming player this offseason will likely be: Do they fit the triangle offense? Knicks president Phil Jackson won 11 titles with the system, making it famous and infamous in the process. Implementing the triangle (and rehabilitating its reputation) is clearly one of Jackson’s major motivations. This is great for the short-term mission: tank for a high pick. As for the long term, I find it ominous. Historically, when the Knicks have a good point guard, they win. Clyde Frazier propelled New York to its two only titles. Doc Rivers and Derek Harper ran the team in its 1990s heyday. Jason Kidd helped the team to 54 wins. Heck, put the Linsanity run in there. Good point guard play is a rising tide that lifts the entire franchise. And one of the features of the triangle offense is it de-emphasizes the role of the point guard. Jackson’s Bulls and Lakers teams won a combined 11 titles with a series of caretaker point guards.

    “Chasing a point guard, where it becomes just an obsession, isn’t necessary,” Jackson said last season. “It’s not necessary. We can play the game without that.”

    Looking at the top teams in the NBA, I don’t think you can. Not anymore.

    I think the author is misreading Phil’s comment a bit here. Phil isn’t saying his system diminishes the importance of having an effective point guard. He’s saying we shouldn’t have to obsess about finding a perfect point guard as necessary for the system of basketball he wants to run. We’ll be looking for a guard this draft.

    Are you going to support this statement?

    Dolan overruled Walsh his first year there on signing Allen Iverson (and overruled him on a number of other decisions, of course, as time went on, but just noting that that was the earliest one). Dolan clearly felt that hiring Walsh period was good enough, he wasn’t going to actually turn over control to him.

    The team was so much fun to watch last night (without Melo). Can we just pay him to stay home? We can give him a ball that he doesn’t have to share with anybody just as if he were playing.

    @44 — +1

    Just for fun, how does Lin’s NYK season compare to our options for next year. Better stat-minds than mine are needed to hypothesize …

    (edit) sorry couldn’t get my link to stay solid. not sure why

    I was very happy to see the back ups play so hard last night.
    The scoring was spread across the line up. Assists were abundant.
    The team worked as a team and everyone was engaged.
    I hope Melo doesn’t return.
    I want to see our young ones play their hearts out down the stretch.

    I know I should be thinking tanking, but I just can’t get into it.
    I would love to see these young guys.
    Willy was excellent. This new guard played hard, and was aggressive.
    O’Quinn played his heart out.
    The team defended. No one was standing by as people worked the glass (looking at you Melo!).
    Help defense was there. Weak side defense in the 4th was solid.
    The Magic is a team they should beat. Doing it without Melo was exquisite.

    My heart just isn’t into tanking. Low draft picks often don’t work out.

    It looks to me like a #5 draft pick and a #11 draft pick might be similar quality this year. There’s no reason to fret when we win.

    people here are hyped about a win against Orlando. LOL just cause Melo didnt play. A game that the Knicks were actually pretty bad in for the majority of.

    Sad!

    Off Topic but as far as Tanking, do you think its getting out of hand? I mean I know its something that teams have done stealthily for years but now it seems like its so blatant and accepted as something bad teams do once the season is halfway over. I know they changed the rules for what order teams draft in after The Spurs got Duncan, but part of me thinks they should switch it back and make it more random or maybe even give some of the top 5 picks to the teams that barely miss the playoffs and not the worst teams. Imagine how different the games would be if teams had an incentive all season to make the playoffs or be as close to not making it as possible? I don’t know how this would work but it seems like its now just a given that teams are gonna tank after December and I think its hurting the product. If they made it more random or at least lowered the chances of getting top pick if you’re the worst team, I think it would be good for the league. The new CBA is gonna make it even more inticing to tank.

    The Nets point made me think. Of the teams in the lottery, who would you rather be a fan of than the knicks? I’m talking teams with better rosters (current talent and salaries) , better potential (draft picks) and better managed? My thoughts:
    Thank God I love the Knicks and not Orlando, Brooklyn, Phx, Sac, and maybe LA
    I’d rather be a fan of: Minn, NO
    On the fence: Philly and Dallas
    But, these teams should be a lot better than us, but have under-performed / done stupid things: Charlotte, Portland, Denver (can you hate a team but love 1 guy)?

    Just an interesting discussion. Our level of shittiness isn’t unique. We have done some stupid shit, but we dont’ own the contracts of Chandler Parsons, Allen Crabbe, Evan Turner, Nick Batum, Luol Deng or Evan Fornier.

    Dolan clearly felt that hiring Walsh period was good enough, he wasn’t going to actually turn over control to him.

    But wasn’t that contradicted by Walsh’s own testimony where Dolan gave him the final say?

    Off Topic but as far as Tanking, do you think its getting out of hand? I mean I know its something that teams have done stealthily for years but now it seems like its so blatant and accepted as something bad teams do once the season is halfway over. I know they changed the rules for what order teams draft in after The Spurs got Duncan, but part of me thinks they should switch it back and make it more random or maybe even give some of the top 5 picks to the teams that barely miss the playoffs and not the worst teams. Imagine how different the games would be if teams had an incentive all season to make the playoffs or be as close to not making it as possible? I don’t know how this would work but it seems like its now just a given that teams are gonna tank after December and I think its hurting the product. If they made it more random or at least lowered the chances of getting top pick if you’re the worst team, I think it would be good for the league. The new CBA is gonna make it even more inticing to tank.

    I believe our own Mike K. came up with an ingenious solution that involved choosing an earlier date in the season as being the date that lottery order would lock in (you would still then have a lottery, of course, but the amount of ping pong balls would be locked in early). Then teams could just play out the rest of the season trying to win as much as they could, since it wouldn’t affect their draft order, and since you’d be doing it earlier, borderline teams wouldn’t get the chance to super-tank, which is what most teams do in the last month.

    @50 – agree completely.

    @53 – like that idea.

    Also, not sure if this would improve things, but maybe if the draft picks were awarded to teams based on worst overall record for the last three or even five seasons. You’d still have tanking for position during any given season, but a team would really have to commit for the long haul to guarantee anything.

    We looked bad in the Magic game for most of it because Rose was playing major minutes. He was at a -23 for the game when the next closest differential was KP’s -9. I mean, that’s really, really bad. Its why we’re so hyped. It just adds more credibility to the notion that its 2 main players keeping this team down.

    Tanking on its face is insidious. It defeats the purpose of athletic competition. The best idea is probably a wheel of some sort. Where the picks just rotate every year. So yes the Warriors could end up with the number one pick this year, but i think the game’s integrity is more important than superteams, which are happening anyway.

    Yeah, Carmelo has 6 game scores higher than what Kawhi did last night and has the second highest total in the last ten years. That game against Charlotte was pretty sick. Had forgotten. 62 points without a turnover, 23-35, 6-11 from 3, 10-10 ft. This was the best Game Score Kawhi has recorded.

    When Melo is great he is really great. I think it’s a big part of his mystique.

    Netw3rk is great.

    But wasn’t that contradicted by Walsh’s own testimony where Dolan gave him the final say?

    Again, he was overruled many times before then. He almost resigned earlier that year because Dolan re-hired Thomas against Walsh’s wishes. Then all the reports at the time said Dolan told them to get a deal done any cost, which completely fit all the facts of how things were for years at that point. Walsh saying years later “I made the final call” means little when he knew what the owner wanted and knew that Dolan had already overruled him on a number of other issues. Unlike D’Antoni, Walsh isn’t a dick. He’s not going to throw people under the bus. He was the GM, so he’ll take the heat, deserved or not. I mean, come on, he has Dolan telling him that he (Dolan) doesn’t know basketball so that he can’t make the call, and yet “made the call” numerous times in opposition to Walsh before that? It’s Walsh being a good guy, which I respect him for, but it sure isn’t what actually happened.

    We’ve probably got our greatest collection of young talent in decades here and Phil has accomplished it with just one high draft pick. KP, Willy, Baker, Randle, NDour, Kuz; O’Quinn, Holiday, Plumlee and Inglis. We’re getting oh so close.

    Kawhi Leonard does so many other things better than Melo. I’m not a Melo hater as much as most on this board, but Kawhi is better at basketball all around than Melo is and ever was – that is a fact. Leonard’s defense is elite, Melo’s defense is MIA.

    The thing about Smith JR is he lands weird(similar to Rose) on his dunk attempts which could lead to injury.

    Last night on its own doesn’t demonstrate much, but it’s true that trading O’Quinn and/or Lee was a lot more important for the tank than trading Melo (aside from what trading Melo would signal). Melo’s TS% is 54% while the team’s is 53.6%. Essentially the same thing, so the offense doesn’t really miss him when he’s out. Given that Melo doesn’t really do much other than score these days, you can certainly make the argument that he’s a net negative.

    O’Quinn on the other hand came in and fucked up the whole tank in like 12 minutes. We better get a first for that dude.

    In anticipation of our draft The Ringer has published a list of the 10 best Knicks point guards of the past decade. As you can guess, the list is very depressing. The subtitle “A confusing list of failures at a historically stacked position” says it all

    I’m going to guess at the top 10, unranked:

    Ray Felton
    Jeremy Lin
    Max Marbury
    Nate Robinson (really a SG but height)
    Jason Kidd
    Derrick Rose (haha)
    Pablo

    I seriously can’t think of any others. Did we even have PGs?

    Rose had a rough outing, shooting 2-of-9 with two turnovers. He was coming off a scare Sunday after inadvertently getting elbowed in the eye by Porzingis.

    Somehow I don’t think this was inadvertent. Which reminds me of how he was clowning Willy’s shiner after the Biyombo foul.

    Rose said the specialist recommended protective goggles, but he refuses to wear them. Though he scored 28 points Sunday, he couldn’t get going Monday and his minutes could go down as a youth movement begins. He said he’ll try not to “go insane.’’

    “The noise, the crowd, the lights were getting to me a little bit,’’ Rose said of Sunday’s game. “But I got through it.’’

    Does this guy seem mentally stable to any of you?

    I seriously can’t think of any others. Did we even have PGs?

    How could you forget our all time assist in a game leader?

    Frank,

    Read something the other day that looked at what college stats seem to correlate best with NBA success for wings – and semi-surprisingly, scoring volume but also scoring efficiency was pretty low on the totem pole. Steals, assists, and rebounds seemed far more predictive.

    It’s far from a rigorous statistical analysis, but still semi-interesting.

    One of things that bothers me about studies like these is that the model they use to measure NBA success may not necessarily be correct. If you are measuring the same things the same way in college and pros it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

    This not a criticism of Wins Produced (which I think gets a bit of a bum rap), but they used to fall into that trap all the time time.

    They would measure some college player and say he was very underrated. He would get drafted well below what Wins Produced suggested was appropriate. Then they would use the same model and his pro stats to say “See we told you he was underrated, he’s a terrific pro also”. The problem is that the same people that disagreed with the college assessment disagreed with the pro assessment.

    What I think is useful is to identify the skills most likely to develop further as a player matures. For example, if a player is a freak athlete, terrific play maker, high level defender, and has a strong work ethic, I’m not going to be overly worried if he’s just a mediocre shooter. A lot of mediocre shooters get a lot better. If he can’t defend a lick because he’s undersized, has a below average wingspan, and is not very athletic, I’m very worried even if he does everything else at a high level.

    It just adds more credibility to the notion that its 2 main players keeping this team down.

    that’s just insane that our two “star” players making the most money are actually most responsible for the poor chemistry we have…

    those two guys are sucking the life/joy out of every other guy on the squad; and to me at least – the main reason our defense is so atrocious (that and lance getting hurt and rambis being on the bench)…

    if by some miracle they had both had to sit this season out from the very beginning – i’m not sure our record would be any better; but, the games would have been a thousand times more enjoyable to watch…

    replace those two with better “team guys” and no doubt the season would not be this bad…

    looking forward to the draft – but, want i’m really hoping for though is we somehow can get rid of both of those players before the beginning of july…

    replace those two with better “team guys” and no doubt the season would not be this bad…

    Just to put that into numerical perspective, Rose’s defensive real plus-minus (drpm) is 441 out of a total 453 players that played enough minutes to qualify while Carmelo ranks in at 424 in drpm out of 453.

    Yeah that’s a management thing. If you know you already have a bad defender who starts, why would you add one who is even worse and guards the most important position

    We’ve probably got our greatest collection of young talent in decades here and Phil has accomplished it with just one high draft pick. KP, Willy, Baker, Randle, NDour, Kuz; O’Quinn, Holiday, Plumlee and Inglis.

    KP: okay.
    Willy: okay.
    Baker: nah.
    Randle: nah.
    N’Dour: nah.
    Kuz: not young, and nah.
    O’Quinn: not young.
    Holiday: not young.
    Plumlee: nah.
    Inglis: nah.

    Just to put that into numerical perspective, Rose’s defensive real plus-minus (drpm) is 441 out of a total 453 players that played enough minutes to qualify while Carmelo ranks in at 424 in drpm out of 453.

    thanks ras…for me the thing that really sticks in regards to rose is how his teammates barely want to make contact/touch him when he’s out on the court or goes to and from the bench…talk about buzzkills – derrick rose: buzzkill numero uno…

    i realize this is stupid and would never happen – but, could you imagine if melo actually focused and cared enough to create and distribute for his teammates – we could have probably lived with his sucky defense if, he could somehow average 5 to 6 assists instead of 3, 8 rebounds instead of 6 and took around 15 shots a game instead of 19 to 20…yeah, i know – and, if pigs could fly

    We aren’t going to win anything with all 20-22 year old players. How about this:

    KP: okay.
    Willy: okay.
    Baker: prospect.
    Randle: prospect.
    N’Dour: nah.
    Kuz: young enough.
    O’Quinn: young enough.
    Holiday: young enough.
    Plumlee: prospect.
    Inglis: haven’t seen enough.

    IMO, it’s too soon reject guys like Baker, Randle, and Plumlee. One or more could develop into solid rotation players on a very good team. I also have no problem with our guys in their mid 20s. Players can remain very productive into their early 30s. A few of those guys could hang around and be an important veteran presence on a team of younger players to eventually go along with KP and WH.

    It’s guys like Rose, Melo, and Noah that have to be jettisoned. There is no timetable where they fit other than perhaps Noah as a mentor of sorts for a couple of years. No doubt there will be changes, but we have a few decent young players.

    @72 JK – don’t waste your time responding to posts like that, it’s not worth it. It’s like arguing with someone who insists that 3 million people voted illegally.

    i would put Lee on the list of players that should be jettisoned just because of the length of his contract and his age.. all season I would ve prefered to be starting holiday

    i would put Lee on the list of players that should be jettisoned just because of the length of his contract and his age.. all season I would ve prefered to be starting holiday

    Getting rid of Lee should be a top priority for the team, but he might have already become untradeable. Hopefully not! I like Lee a lot, but the timeline with him just doesn’t make any sense (it never did).

    I’d like to know how Ron Baker, undrafted college senior who is already 23 years old and has posted a negative WS48 with a .457 TS%, is a prospect. He’s a prospect in the same way that Travis Wear was a prospect. Which is to say, not much of a prospect.

    You can find guys like Plumlee/Ndour/Baker/Randle/Inglis on the scrap heap any time. In fact, they all actually DID come off the scrap heap. They’re fungible commodities. I’d rather have guys like that occupying the 13-15 roster spots than ancient veterans on minimum contracts, but those guys are all very fringe prospects. They’re not assets. You could sign another 5 guys in that same ultra-fringe prospect range tomorrow if you wanted to. Every single team in the league has fringy guys like this hanging out near the end of their roster and on their D-League team.

    The Knicks have two actual good young players, and it’s obvious who they are. Justin Holiday’s contract expires this year. Kyle O’Quinn has one more year on his deal. Kuz is 27 and not really all that good. Those guys are not probably not gonna be part of the next competitive Knicks team, if there ever is one.

    The Knicks have two actual good young players, and it’s obvious who they are.

    While that’s true, you’d have to go back to 6 or 7 years to find the last time we had two good young players… Gallo and Chandler?

    yeah, the Ron Baker is a prospect thing is a Knicks-only thing… only the Knicks fan base could possibly get excited about a guy who’s obviously not even average, is not young but “looks like he cares about not losing”.

    I get that we have endured Big Snacks and all, but this team has 3 assets, KP, Hernangomez and O’Quinn, an overpaid role player (Lee), an expiring low value asset (Holiday) and a dude who we can maybe sorta kinda hope to flip for assets in the summer (Melo).

    every other player on the roster has zero value over replacements from the scrap heap or are marginally worse (Noah, Thomas) because of their contracts.

    While that’s true, you’d have to go back to 6 or 7 years to find the last time we had two good young players… Gallo and Chandler?

    Lin and Shumpert? But yeah, it’s been a while. That’s what happens when you keep A. trading first rounders and B. never rebuilding.

    Hm, I guess you’d be right with Lin and Shumpert. In any case, I think the KP/Willy duo has a significantly higher ceiling than either Lin/Shumpert or Gallo/Chandler simply based on KP alone.

    Baker will become a solid rotation player if he develops a better shot. He’s already a high energy defender and has some passing skills. Shooting is something that sometimes comes later. That was something I was alluding to in an earlier post. Am I jumping up and down about Baker or Randle as prospects? No. But there is no reason to move from them either. Both have a chance to become solid backups at a cheap price. You build once piece at at a time through the whole roster with good values.

    Sure, JK wasn’t saying dump them. Keep them. But they’re not really “prospects,” since the odds of them becoming good players are long. Prospects are young players with a good chance of succeeding. Billy coming into the season was a prospect.

    Billy coming into the season was a prospect.

    I thought Billy was a mortal lock. 😉

    Other than that, we are debating definitions. To me a prospect is anyone that can become a solid rotation player. It’s not just about starters. In fact, I like these kinds of bench players if they are productive. They come very cheap. That leaves more cap room for starters.

    Prospects are young guys that are unproven and unheralded but might become good. Willy is a top prospect. Baker is more run-of-the-mill, but a prospect nonetheless. With Baker, you hope he develops, but don’t have any concrete expectations that he will. But the league has had enough guys that were Baker-level and made good to not give up on these diamonds in the rough too soon. These are the best kinds of finds. John Starks, anyone?

    What I like about Baker is that he has ALWAYS had to prove himself and ALWAYS has, given time. I think he will figure out how to carve a solid rotation spot in the NBA. He’s been an erratic shooter, turns the ball over too much and gets out-finesssed on D, but I can see him being in the gym 14 hours a day all off-season working on his game. In the quarters here and there when he has put it all together, he’s looked very much like a smart, skilled and tenacious NBA player. I hope he sticks around for another year.

    Oh sure, I am certainly not saying get rid of Baker. Of course keep him around. I’d have loved it if they had signed even more guys like Baker the last couple of years. I mean, Derrick Williams and Arron Afflalo? What wastes they were as signings. The Knicks should have been filling their roster with guys like Baker the last couple of years. Like the extremely available last year Sean Kilpatrick.

    Saw this on that old thread THCJ posted :

    Kawhi Leonard will never be even an average nba player. Guaranteed.

    I guess that turned out to be true! Always above average!

    We have our best young group in decades. It’s factual. And Baker is one of them regardless of you small sample numbers crunchers.
    At some point you have to use your eyes and extrapolate the potential.
    I wouldn’t discard NDour or Plumlee to the scrap heap yet either.
    And freaking Chasson +29 Randle just screams prospect.

    @92

    You’re doing a good job of keeping your “wrong about every single thing ever” streak alive.

    Baker’s coach at Wichita St. just said on the radio that Baker is even a better person than he is a player so there’s that too.

    Wow that Orlando team really knows how to tank. Anyone remember that south park episode where all the kids playing little league were trying to lose so they could stop playing baseball, but all the other teams were better at losing than them? That’s how I felt last night.

    Ron Baker: 400+ minutes are too small of a sample size to judge.
    Chasson Randle: amazing prospect because he was +29 in one game.

    You do this on purpose, right? I mean, you intentionally say ridiculously stupid things, that’s your shtick, correct?

    baker has a shot to an ok bench player… what’s dragging him down is his shot from basically everywhere on the floor.. but it’s a small sample so he’s probably still finding out what works what doesn’t… he deserves another year to see if he makes progress….

    Randle screams prospect because he is smart, young, triangular, has long arms, can shoot and distribute. Not because of his amazing game yesterday.

    Baker is tough, young, smart, hungry, strong, can play hard defense, distribute and can shoot (although he hasn’t shown it yet).

    That’s why they’re nice prospects. NDour is better than bean counters think too.

    To some on here, a troll is someone who disagrees with them and roots for the home team.

    I seriously can’t think of any others. Did we even have PGs?

    Chris Duhon made the top 10. Yikes.

    In fairness, though, I would imagine every NBA team would have some dross in their top 10 PG of the last 10 years. The problem is the lack of anyone good in the top 1 PGs of our last ten years.

    Working hard is not a criteria to be a good NBA player, that’s the problem. People look at Baker and he seems to be a fine, intelligent young man who wants to be a NBA player really bad, but it doesn’t really matter… working 14 hours a day makes great prospects great players, it makes the Kawhis of the world great, then it becomes a criteria: Kawhi has all the tools in the world and worked hard refining them, Steve Francis had all the tools in the world and didn’t work hard.

    Baker does not have it… he could one day be a decent player in the NBA, but a rebuilding team with close to no assets has no use for the sort of decent player Baker could eventually become… he could be helpful for a decent team looking for depth in a playoff run.

    I’d much rather use the roster spot on a more raw player who has higher upside.

    Please define “it”.

    If he becomes a decent player in the NBA and cost us nothing that’s a bad thing?

    Baker does not have it… he could one day be a decent player in the NBA, but a rebuilding team with close to no assets has no use for the sort of decent player Baker could eventually become… he could be helpful for a decent team looking for depth in a playoff run.

    I’d much rather use the roster spot on a more raw player who has higher upside.

    There really isn’t anyone like that out there right now. Maybe during the summer, in which case, sure, bring more players in to see what’s what, but the very thing that you note (that good teams would be interested in Baker) is why the Knicks should probably hold on to him to see if he develops, because if they make him available, he likely will get snatched up. So since he’s not hurting their roster construction now (they still have Sasha on the team, for crying out loud), it’s best to just keep playing him and see if he can improve.

    Saying Baker isn’t a prospect is just dumb. Defense matters, and Ron Ron actually plays D. A decent guard at his salary (and he could be decent as soon as next year) is great value. You need those kinds of players because you can’t sign all “great prospects” due to, you know, the draft, and other teams.

    If he’s league average next year, that’s freaking fantastic.

    Randle screams prospect because he is smart, young, triangular, has long arms, can shoot and distribute. Not because of his amazing game yesterday.

    I highlighted the part of this sentence that makes it painfully obvious that reub is trying to troll you.

    Ron Baker is ranked 370th out of 384 qualifying players in TS% this year.

    At $500k salary, I can’t really complain, although I wouldn’t offer a penny more than the minimum next year, and I wouldn’t even do that.

    At least it’s not Chandler Parsons, who somehow has a worse TS% and is on the hook for $72M over the next 3 seasons. Somehow, that looks like a worse deal than Noah’s.

    If he’s league average next year, that’s freaking fantastic.

    He’s so far from league average you need a telescope to see him. Yeah, it’d be awesome if he went from being a sub-replacement level player at age 23 to league average at age 24. That would be swell if he was able to make that enormous, gigantic leap from not being better than a random generic replacement player to being better than half of the players in the NBA. He’s *thisclose*.

    Being triangular, as Randle is, is an asset on our team as presently constituted and managed. Is it not?

    If and when Baker’s shot starts falling he’ll be a nice asset for our team to go along with his tenacious defense and unselfish play.

    The plight of Knicks fans:
    Arguing over role players.
    I mean, I wouldn’t have remembered Chris Duhon unless someone mentioned him, but I recall arguments about him back when he was in our back court.

    I wouldn’t be sad if Baker is somehow cut today.

    He hasn’t shown anything to be excited about except maybe hustle.

    He is this year’s “Toure Murray”.

    What does it mean to be triangular? And, where the hell is Theo? And, Ted whats his name?

    I find the argument over O’Quinn, Holiday and Kuz to be completely off base. People act as though the only players that count are players we are going to have for the next 10 years but we need to field a team next year and the year after that and O’Quinn and Holiday and to a lesser extent Kuz should be a part of that. I don’t even mind if Lee sticks around, he’s a good teammate and will probably age okay and defensively he is and will continue to be fine. I think people wanted him to be some kind of defensive stopper and he isn’t, but on a solid defensive team he is not ruining your team defense like Rose or Melo or Jennings. I’d also keep Baker and Randle and Plumlee around because continuity is good, they seem like solid teammates and there is a chance one develops into a bench player on a good team in a couple years.

    Starting next year we need to build a culture and start trying to win. We need to win 35-40 games the right way before we can win 45 or 50. Extreme tanking is the same kind of want it now mentality that chasing aging stars is, it’s just the flipside of it. It’s tank until we draft Lebron and then poof championship. Most teams develop slowly and walk before they run. We have our star, we have a very nice second prospect and hopefully a third out of this draft.

    Yeah, Carmelo has 6 game scores higher than what Kawhi did last night and has the second highest total in the last ten years. That game against Charlotte was pretty sick. Had forgotten. 62 points without a turnover, 23-35, 6-11 from 3, 10-10 ft. This was the best Game Score Kawhi has recorded.

    When Melo is great he is really great. I think it’s a big part of his mystique.

    Only Knicks game I’ve been to in the last 10 years – grabbed last-minute StubHub tickets for $20.

    I was so enamored with every bucket I didn’t even remember that he also pulled down 13 rebounds.

    They were really playing awful during that stretch and I remember thinking “it’s the Bobcats, maybe I can spend $20 and see them actually win?” Man, what a game.

    Starting next year we need to build a culture and start trying to win. We need to win 35-40 games the right way before we can win 45 or 50. Extreme tanking is the same kind of want it now mentality that chasing aging stars is, it’s just the flipside of it. It’s tank until we draft Lebron and then poof championship. Most teams develop slowly and walk before they run. We have our star, we have a very nice second prospect and hopefully a third out of this draft.

    whoa…slow down with all this rational, reasonable kind of talk here…

    Only Knicks game I’ve been to in the last 10 years – grabbed last-minute StubHub tickets for $20.

    They were really playing awful during that stretch and I remember thinking “it’s the Bobcats, maybe I can spend $20 and see them actually win?” Man, what a game.

    listen, in no way, shape or form am i caving on the whole “go tank” thing – but, an excellent arguement for playing every game to win…

    Baker is a 12th man on a good team. His talent is replacement-level. HOW-EVAH, his intangibles are worth something, especially to a team with a rotten core like us. When you have guys dogging it on D, taking bad shots, and generally playing low-effort basketball, it’s nice to balance that with a guy who is always going to hustle and not make dumb plays. He’ll never complain about playing time and always root hard for his teammates.

    Really the team focus needs to be on acquiring long-term cost-controlled pieces. O’Quinn is a nice player, but he’s either going to be gone or expensive by the time the team is good. If it ever is. Holiday is an unrestricted free agent after this year. They’re not guys who you are controlling for multiple years at below-market rates. That’s how you win in the NBA– you get guys who outperform their contracts.

    Right now those guys are good value players, they’re worth their contracts and more. It won’t be that way for long.

    It’s just about optimizing the win curve. Courtney Lee will almost assuredly never be on the right win curve with this team. O’Quinn could, but if so, it would be after being re-signed to a much larger contract, so the question is whether that is optimal or not. Same with Holiday. He could be part of the team’s win curve, but only after being re-signed to a large, long-term deal. Is that optimal?

    Just make the optimal decisions with your players. MMM was never going to be a good idea for that very reason.

    We aren’t going to build a good team culture if we change almost all the players every year. It’s certainly true that some of our young players aren’t going to be stars or even starters, but they play a role and are part of the team. I’d rather keep at some of them them for next year than get newer but equivalent players

    We aren’t going to build a good team culture if we change almost all the players every year. It’s certainly true that some of our young players aren’t going to be stars or even starters, but they play a role and are part of the team. I’d rather keep at some of them them for next year than get newer but equivalent players

    Well yeah, if the options are “keep our shitty players” and “replace them with equally shitty players,” then by all means go with the guys who were already here. But Baker, Randle, and whoever else Reub is ranting and raving about should not be factored into future plans whatsoever. We need to make moves under the assumption that we have exactly two players with a chance to good things for us in the long-term, because that’s almost certainly the case (we’ll see what happens with K’OQ’s contract but my guess is he’s out of here soon).

    @124
    I agree with this to a certain extent. We would have been better off building on the RoLo/Grant roster and bringing back Galloway than we were acquiring Rose, Noah and Jennings, that’s for sure.

    The one guy who should be flipped for an asset or two is O’Quinn. The team has other bigs on the roster, he only has one year left on his deal, and he’s productive. He’s a luxury we don’t really need. There is probably a good team out there that would not mind having a guy who can put up a .560 TS% and averages over 13 rebounds per 36 on what is basically a 1 year, $4M contract. The other guys you might as well all keep as stopgap players until you find better replacements. Lee is not going to fetch much in a trade, and Noah is a complete albatross. Those guys are probably going to be playing through the ends of their contracts.

    I’d roll next year with Willy and Porzingis as the frontcourt, Melo at the 3, Lee at the 2 and hopefully one of the rookie point guards as the other starter. If you can move Melo, that’s great, maybe you can sign or otherwise acquire a 3-and-D type small forward. That would be a pretty watchable team.

    Well, at least Shump turned into a serviceable NBA player. Nobody, not even you Jowles, predicted Kawhi as a HOF lock. Admit it, bro, you were all hot for Faried and would have definitely passed over Leonard for him. Not that Faried is a bum. Ok, he is one, but whatever.

    At least we were both right about Singleton 🙂

    If there is an opportunity to sell high KOQ we should do it, but I think we are overvaluing him way to much.

    As we saw in this trade deadline, he definitely is a good player that can attract some interest, but I don’t think his value is very high around the league.

    It is possible that after we fail next season (we will) other teams will see him as just another backup guy on a shitty team.

    I mean, how many backups on lottery teams got a huge paycheck from other teams these days?

    W0w, rip on Ron Baker day? The guy’s making NBA table scraps, but plays hard, seems like a real good teammate, etc. So, why isn’t he worth at least having around on a minimum deal as a fringe rotation player or even if he turns out to be nothing more than an end of bench glue guy?

    I definitely hope he’s back next year so we can at least see if he can improve hit shooting/scoring a bit. If not, so be it.

    I thought Kawhi would be a solid rotation player. No one expected a guy who’ll probably end his career as a guy with a few rings, an MVP, 2 or 3 DPOYs, and 10-15 All-NBA selections.

    But Faried? I cannot wrap my head around how you can be so wrong so often and still have faith in your evaluative powers. Here you are, six years after the draft, talking shit on a mid-first-round guy who ranks 8th in ORtg this year and has been in the top 10 in offensive rebounds for the last four years. How are you this bad at having basketball opinions? Seriously, tell me. How?

    At least we drafted Shumpert after Kawhi was off the board (although Jimmy Butler went #30). Think about it if we had drafted any of these guys if we had a pick between 1-14, this board would be in full self-flagellation mode for the last 6 years:

    Derrick Williams
    Jan Vesely
    Jimmer Fredette
    Alec Burks
    The Morris brothers

    Just looking through Game Finder to see extremes in Kawhi’s game. Here’s an interesting stat.

    In his whole career, Kawhi has 3 games in which he had more than 4 turnovers (one game each of 5, 6, and 7 TO). Carmelo has 157 games of >4 TO.

    Basically, once every 6 games, Carmelo puts up 5 or more turnovers. Kawhi does this once every 127 games.

    (I realize this is mostly trivial, since Kawhi was a low-usage player as a rookie, but still.)

    All this doom and gloom and predictions makes me wanna cry. But then I look back on previous years pre-draft postings and I learn we never know what’s gonna happen:

    1. About Miami, 2011: “If they wanted to offer 3 max deals, they’ll need 50 mil in cap space to offer 3 max deals.. What everybody is assuming is that LeBron, Wade, and Bosh will all take around 14.3 mil to play together. Not. Gonna. Happen. You know, since Miami wants to take the fun out of being a fan, I really hope this whole thing backfires and they end up with Boozer, Haywood, and Josh Howard.”

    2. Someone we love to hate, on Landry Fields: “Hate to say this, but according to PAWS40, Fields might be a steal….All I’m saying is that the stats are there, and the PAC-10 isn’t that bad. It’s not like drafting a “project” in the early 2nd round who shoots 39% from the field and has a high turnover rate. The kid projects to be a quality starter in the NBA, and perhaps it’s that he doesn’t have the John Wall-like ESPN-constructed narrative that made him fall under the radar.”

    3. Someone we love to hate, on drafting Faried/Derrick Williams: “There should be no doubt about Faried’s promise. These are his stats…Derrick Williams put up some of the most impressive numbers I’ve seen in NCAAB…690 TS% in 1100 minutes? Mental. Led the league. ”

    4. We were right on one guy in 2009: “I’m hoping that all this talk that all the teams ahead of coveted Curry was just talk to try to get Donnie to trade up… now the sources are all thinking he’ll drop to us — one can only hope.”

    So maybe we don’t know it all, and luck may come to us accidentally/accidentankly?

    Baker’s been terrible on offense- .457 TS% and a 15.1 assist %/19.9 TOV% while playing a lot of point guard. He’s a solid defender but nowhere near good enough to make up for his offense. Maybe playing more at the two with Randle here will help his shooting numbers but seeing him as anything more than an end of the bench guy right now is a stretch. Kuz needs to spend the entire off-season in the weight room (or pay a visit to LBJ’s doctor down in South Beach)- he’s got some skills but is physically overmatched right now. Holiday is probably going to cost something close to Lance Thomas which wouldn’t be awful but I’m guessing you could find somebody younger and cheaper to be a back-up two. The Knicks basically have two very good contracts- KP and Willy (plus KOQ for one more year) and two really bad ones- Melo and Noah. Given that they have all their picks you’d have to say they’re in decent but not great position moving forward- if you trust the front office that is. Personally I don’t trust the front office so like most people here I’m hoping for a lottery miracle.

    Sad that the only thing people here want to discuss is how futile Ron Baker’s NBA career is. Meanwhile, we have a center in Willy who leads all NBA rookies in WS/48 and looks like the 2nd coming of Marc Gasol.

    I am all for getting value contracts but honestly right now it doesn’t matter much. For the next three seasons we shouldn’t be a player in free agency much at all. If we can sign Holiday for three years at anywhere between 3-6 maybe even 7 million a year I say do it. But three years max unless it’s under 5 million a year. I also think we need to think of Lee’s contract as a sunk cost. He should be a solid starter for at least another year or two and then a decent backup until his contract expires and that is fine.

    As for optimizing the win curve it’s most important with the focal points of your team. If some of your role players are not on the curve that’s fine because they don’t take focus out of the offense and are replaceable when they get older. What you don’t want is what we have with Rose and Melo, they are not on the curve but demand plays run for them and the offense to bend to their styles. They are directly in the way of building around Porzingis and his win curve where a player like Lee can simply be a role player until he’s not and no harm is done and he is replaced.

    If you can’t get like a first for KOQ that might be an indication that we should hold onto him and resign him because it would then be clear that he’s not valued around the league like, at all.

    OQ would be a steal at 3-4x his contract value and his game is going to age well because it’s more about strength and fundamentals than athletic ability per se. I’d be fine with trading him or resigning him, so long as the numbers are right. Also, I love having him on the team–super likeable guy.

    You could do worse than signing holiday for Lance money but I’m not a huge fan of that and would rather hoard cap to take on contracts teams want to dump or make a play in FA when our entirely hypothetical window would hit

    Derrick Williams is actually going to help the Cavs this year. He’s kind of transformed into a 3/and close shots kind of player. Certainly helps to play with Lebron and have that structure.

    Sad that the only thing people here want to discuss is how futile Ron Baker’s NBA career is. Meanwhile, we have a center in Willy who leads all NBA rookies in WS/48 and looks like the 2nd coming of Marc Gasol.

    Willy’s tremendous, he should be the starting C next year. He has responded well to getting extended minutes and is even cutting his turnover rate down. The more he plays, the better he looks. Willy is probably Phil’s finest achievement as GM, even more so than Porzingis, because Willy is a true lottery-level talent who was snagged in the second round. You could easily see Willy becoming Enes Kanter with less horrific defense, and that’s a really nice player for a second-rounder.

    @137

    I would be more in favor of saving cap room to help facilitate trades and collect picks but frankly our management is not that savvy. We are not the team that is going get the sweet deal to help clear someone else’s space because Phil isn’t on top of it enough.

    As for striking in FA a three year Holiday deal would expire the same time as Noah and Lee and be about when KP and Willy are coming into their primes. The perfect time to make a FA splash.

    I think it’s possible to get KOQ signed through 2020 at $10M AAV, possibly less. Considering that the Knicks thought it wise to give Noah $18M AAV through 2020 and Lee $12M AAV, KOQ at 4/$40M would be a win and would ensure some stability in the frontcourt for the foreseeable future. There’s no reason they can’t find 30 minutes per game to split between Willy, KP and KOQ (assuming that Noah plays 10 mpg for 20-ish games for the rest of his disgusting, vomit-inducing contract).

    I’d guess that the same people criticizing an extension for KOQ are the same people who’d be apologists for the Noah signing, so I’m feeling pretty confident that this is the best course of action.

    Duh. We all know that Phil struck gold with KP and Willy. That goes without saying. That alone makes this the best group of young players that the Knicks have had in decades. But instead of lauding this great news the eternal pessimists in here choose to focus on the other young phenoms who I admit are unproven but have a chance to make a real contribution in future seasons. Eternal pessimism. Sad.

    Willy is probably Phil’s finest achievement as GM, even more so than Porzingis, because Willy is a true lottery-level talent who was snagged in the second round.

    There isn’t a rookie I’d rather have in this draft for the long-term than Willy right now and, yes, that includes Embiid. The latter is breaking down as a 22 year old man with only 800 minutes of NBA basketball after missing two series foot injuries. I’ll take Willy.

    You could easily see Willy becoming Enes Kanter with less horrific defense, and that’s a really nice player for a second-rounder.

    And without the crazy attachment to a fundamentalist cleric.

    Derrick Williams is actually going to help the Cavs this year. He’s kind of transformed into a 3/and close shots kind of player. Certainly helps to play with Lebron and have that structure.

    From a basketball perspective, Cleveland was such a perfect spot for Williams. But to get there, he had to first burn every other bridge and lose out on every other chance for a nice contract. I suspect Brandon Jennings will be like that, as well.

    To be clear, I’d have no problem whatsoever extending KOQ. I love his game and would probably love it even more in a season in which I was rooting for the Knicks to win games. I just have a feeling that Phil will let him walk to some analytics savvy team willing to pay him a bit more than his “market” value and we’ll get absolutely nothing. I guess I’d be less antsy to trade him if we had a front office that I generally trusted to do smart things.

    As for optimizing the win curve it’s most important with the focal points of your team. If some of your role players are not on the curve that’s fine because they don’t take focus out of the offense and are replaceable when they get older. What you don’t want is what we have with Rose and Melo, they are not on the curve but demand plays run for them and the offense to bend to their styles. They are directly in the way of building around Porzingis and his win curve where a player like Lee can simply be a role player until he’s not and no harm is done and he is replaced.

    I agree with all of this, but if you can get something (big “if” to be sure, but I think the Pelicans will be desperate) for Lee I think you have to.

    And without the crazy attachment to a fundamentalist cleric.

    Gulen is not a standup guy but I understand preferring to throw your lot in with him to Erdogan. Anyway, we should probably stick to basketball…

    As dismal as this season has been, I believe there is reason for optimism. With WHG and KP the Knicks have 2 legit young front line starters who have lots of upside. I wait with bated breath to see them both play with an actual point guard who can get them the ball at their ‘spots’. i really believe the sky is the limit with those two.

    I wouldn’t mind them spending Rose’s space extending KOQ and resigning Holiday at a market figure with maybe 6 M left over. The joke of the Rose trade is Holiday might end up the best player in that trade, It looks as though Phil did a decent job of dumping Lopez who has been close to abysmal, which no one saw coming.

    Rose gone and Me-lo gone or in a very reduces role is addition by subtraction.

    The only thing of real importance is scoring with the 6th-11th pick they get and landing a 3rd “main cog” sort of player.

    Gulen is not a standup guy but I understand preferring to throw your lot in with him to Erdogan.

    CNN Hot Take.

    As dismal as this season has been, I believe there is reason for optimism. With WHG and KP the Knicks have 2 legit young front line starters who have lots of upside. I wait with bated breath to see them both play with an actual point guard who can get them the ball at their ‘spots’. i really believe the sky is the limit with those two.

    Speaking of which, does anyone remember the trade deadline rumor about how Wolves executives reneged on the Rubio-Rose deal because they were afraid of how the latter would stunt the development of their younger players? Well, it seems that they weren’t the only execs in the league who were critical.

    Scouts and executives around the NBA are wondering the same thing about the New York Knicks as the rest of us: why isn’t Kristaps Porzingis more involved? Al Iannazzone of Newsday reports that people around the league believe Porzingis is “standing around too much, that [point guard Derrick] Rose rarely looks for him and that the Knicks don’t run enough plays for him.

    These losses in 2015 could've been the difference between Kristaps Porzingis and Mario Hezonja…— Brandon (@MagicManBrandon) March 7, 2017

    I still don’t think its worth ripping our hair out over every win we get this year. Might as well stop watching till the season’s over.

    But Faried? I cannot wrap my head around how you can be so wrong so often and still have faith in your evaluative powers. Here you are, six years after the draft, talking shit on a mid-first-round guy who ranks 8th in ORtg this year and has been in the top 10 in offensive rebounds for the last four years. How are you this bad at having basketball opinions? Seriously, tell me. How?

    Dude, you’re so easy. But you go right on head loving your 22mpg efficiency superstar until while my man Shump keeps on going about collecting ringz.

    we really shouldn’t be extending koq… wily’s play and noah’s contract basically means he is a luxury and there are a million able bench bigs in the league who can fill that slot long term….

    what we do need is a pg desperately but we’ll find out in the draft if he land one… but if we do he should be used to nab a young sg/sf prospect…. portland or miami would be good trade partners there…

    Portland and Dallas won. That’s good for us improving our draft status.
    Dallas is now 5 and 1 with Noel. How dumb are the 76ers to continually tank and then give away their assets?

    There’s 98 available minutes between the two frontcourt positions–Noah will be taking 20 minutes per game max, likely less–and OQ and KP can switch between PF and C pretty easily. If you get the opportunity to sign OQ at a competitive price after striking out on the trade market with him, you do it.

    Serviceable bench bigs are getting paid 8 figure salaries in this day and age–Kyle is legitimately good.

    We are building a winning tean here unlike the perpetual tankers like Philly. Continuity is important so I’m all for extending O’Quinn and signing Justin Holiday. Add a Rubio, Jrue or Teodosic and draft a young stud or two and we are on our way to building a future championship team.

    Faried is soooo much better than Shumpert, this should not even be a conversation. He’s an “energy” guy. So he would probably not be as productive over 36 minutes as he is when he gets 20+ minutes, but he has real impact in multiple ways. Shumpert is not even as good as Courtney Lee. Shumpert is a solid backup.

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