2015-16 Game Thread: Knicks @ Pacers

Oops, I thought that this was a later game.

I think the Knicks match up well against the Pacers. Monta Ellis is really not all that good. I’m okay with his 50% True Shooting Percentage going nuts.

It will be fun to finally see Myles Turner against the Knicks.

There’s no draft pick waiting for them, so let’s go Knicks!

217 replies on “2015-16 Game Thread: Knicks @ Pacers”

Brian, you sound very confident that the Knicks will win.

Allow me to riposte: Sasha Vujacic is on the court

Brian, you sound very confident that the Knicks will win.

Allow me to riposte: Sasha Vujacic is on the court

Oh, they’ll probably lose, but at least they likely won’t get blown out!

Are they sure Lance Thomas passed his Concussion protocol?

Thomas doesn’t pass, rebound and I don’t think he’s even all that good of a defender (he just at least tries, so he looks better than the rest of the detritus that the Knicks throw out there on perimeter defense). But early on, he was hitting shots at a prodigious rate, so he was a useful player. If he’s not hitting shots (like every season of his career before this one), then yeah, he’s useless. Let’s hope he starts hitting shots again. Or maybe wait until next season, so the Knicks can get him cheap this offseason!

And on cue, he hits a three! Keep it up, Thomas! The Knicks are a whole different ball club when he hits shots.

Man if we could just get O’Quinn some consistent playing time. I doubt he comes out like this every game, but there’s the potential there for him to be a real solid contributor.

Also #freejimmer. No more Sasha please, unless we need someone to niggle some Pacers for a couple of minutes.

And on cue, he hits a three! Keep it up, Thomas! The Knicks are a whole different ball club when he hits shots.

He’s been our barometer all year, especially early on.

WHY IS SASHA PLAYING HES OLD AND TERRIBLE AT EVERYTHING

He’ll bust out one of these nights, you just know it.

You know what the difference is between Sasha and Lance Thomas? None of us are ever going to say we were wrong about Sasha!

KP just isnt in the right spots anymore for mass rebounding…
Melo just hasnt been consistent enough on offense… needs to make sure he rebounds and passes

tough to see the starters come back and completely suck…

I also remember when Melo was an avg shooter. The Who Can Miss the More shots battle between him and George has been entertaining though.

KP hasn’t been rebounding nearly as well as he was at the start of the season for a long time now. He’s turning into Bargnani with somewhat better defense.

is anyone split streaming the Heat-Warriors game? holy shit Whiteside is going off

If Porzingis played just like this all season, I would be worried, since the big worry about him was that he wouldn’t be able to play like he did earlier in the season. Since he did play like that earlier in the season, I’m not worried about him at all. It will eventually come.

Brian,

I know what you are saying, except that his rebounding was “suspect” coming into the season. So you have to wonder which is the aberration .

I know what you are saying, except that his rebounding was “suspect” coming into the season. So you have to wonder which is the aberration .

It was more a physicality issue. I was worried whether he physically could hang in the middle. Once he showed he could, I figure it’ll all come with time. He is so young. Same reason I’m not worried about Okafor (although obviously I’m even less worried about Porzingis than I am about Okafor).

Can someone show rambis tape of some early games when grant galloway Williams Thomas came off the bench and the tempto immediately rose along with my enjoyment of this team.

Why did that stop again?

i’m surprised the stadium hasn’t fallen in with afflalo on the bench. i assumed he was structural.

Myles Turner is skinnier than hell huh….

Don’t know what the hell that shot was but it went in…

Not entirely sure why O’Quinn isn’t in over Lance considering how badly we’ve been shredded on the interior this game

The Knicks could play with 6 defenders on the court and still wouldn’t get a stop in crunch time.

We’re gonna need threes cause we don’t get stops. And on cue…. Melo does his best to make sure we suck

On the bright side, it wasn’t obvious what Melo was going to do there. Oh, wait…

Melo with the bucket off the Kobe Assist from Porzingis after a dish from a penetrating Calderon. Who knew

Someone other than Melo will miss the last Shot and we’ll read about how Melo should take the last shot in tomorrow’s papers

Afflalo and Melo combined to go 6-26 for 18 points. Everyone else shot really well though! Well, everyone but Sasha-if we’d just played Grant those 10 minutes instead I wouldn’t even be mad. I wonder the last time Melo played 30+ minutes and was 5th on the team in scoring.

Also, someone needs to tell Rambis there is no way in hell he’s coaching the Knicks next season and that he needs to ease up on Melo’s minutes.

Unfortunately it seems Phil has a very hands-off approach to on the ground operations and so lets Rambis do what he thinks is best for the team minutes wise and personnel wise. Which is flat out dumb.

Melo should just stop playing in the games or at least play one of every two games. No point to keep him in the line up. We need to play Porzingis, Galloway, Grant, O’Quinn, and Derrick Williams

Derrick Williams isn’t that good, so I can’t be mad at that. O’Quinn was hitting everything. I guess you could have played Williams for Melo, but whoever our coach is the one constant is Melo plays too many minutes.

Is Rambis going into business for himself and trying to win his way into the permanent HC gig?

Kurt “Steward of Gondor” Rambis

Tough loss but there is a glimmer of hope. Knicks ran high picks on almost every play in the second half (some Melo ISO sprinkled in). Those were not “read and react”, that was intentional. It shows some flexibility to abandon a key tenet of the Triangle. It also helps Calderon since he is a PnR guy and at least you have a chance of his offense somewhat off-setting his abysmal defense.

DW is pretty much our only athlete and sometimes makes me nostalgic for Balkman going rim to rim, but me no likey:

The Knicks got very little 3 and absolutely no D according to that chart.

There is no hope. None. The Knicks are bad, have a bad coach, and just need to fast forward the season to Kristaps Porzingis’ 45 point game. I’m certain we will not hit a home run in FA so we just need to snatch up the right guys/punt our cap space and get a coach who won’t Kurt Rambis things to death. I don’t think Phil needs a triangle guy as much as he doesn’t want a Mark Jackson/Scott Brooks type that will just run iso sets all game, so I think we’ll get a good coach considering we have Porzingis and all of our 1st round picks from 2017 on. But there is no hope for this team; we’re 2-13 in our last 15 games. I don’t know what happened to the team that was at .500 after 44 games, but these guys are different. I think Lance Thomas’ regression is the biggest factor in our decline. Everyone else looks about the same.

Langston, Lance, O’Quinn (who led the league in rebounding % early on), Derrick Williams and Kristaps all played fantastic basketball for periods early in the season. They’ve sorta all turned back into what we expected, and Melo’s knee has screwed over his season. That’s a lot to lose.

Why does he smile. ? College nobodies come up bigger than this guy all year long.

Yo you were dick riding this man all game. He had a bad game get over it. Hes been pretty good recently til tonight.

Hassan Whiteside. What if he weren’t a total headcase?

Quite a game last night in Miami….

Don’t know if y’all listen to podcasts, but the content out there is great. Woj’s podcasts are phenomenal, Simmons has great interviews (including one recent one with Bogut), and Tommy Dee (who I never really heard of over a year ago, and has awesome antagonism towards Isola). Tommy Dee has a recent Melo episode/rant, which said that Melo had 70 (!!) teammates on the Knicks so far in his 5 years, and no above-average PG to match up with, other than Billups (who he was rather spectacular with).

Also, he was also staunchly against bringing in Tyson Chandler to begin with, and brings it up now and again. Says we should have amnestied Amar’e and brought in any good PG (duh) instead.

Tommy Dee is as big a Knick apologist as there is in the world. Every move they made was great, including the Bargnani trade. He makes me embarrassed as a Knick fan.

Huh? He is a fan, not a reporter, but he did break the RoLo trade last year first, and the offers for Melo this year. He was anti-Chandler, which would be easy to root for if you were an apologist. The Knicks Blog was pretty good with him when he was there.

Apparently the Celtics approached us to talk about a Melo trade but we said nah. At least it’s good to know that some teams still would want Melo if he decides he’s tired of losing this summer.

Now Melo just has to avoid a major injury the rest of the season, and hopefully we can move on to a proper rebuild. Or Dolan will fire Phil, hire Isiah, and they will trade Porzingis and a first rounder for Cousins.

I vote we bench Melo the rest of the season so he demands a trade, give him the Stephon Marbury treatment. The fact that we aren’t trying to make him miserable means he’s likely to play out his contract in NY.

Hawks, Celtics, Cavs, Rockets, Heat, Thunder, Raptors Pursuing Joe Johnson:

We really should have dealt Afflalo to some suckers

@136 especially when teams like OKC ended up settling for Randy Foye.

We could have flipped Afflalo to Atlanta for Jeff Teague and given Jimmer/Galloway the minutes at the 2.

Had to post this one courtesy of Tommy Beer:

Sasha Vucjacic is playing 10 minutes a night over NY’s last 5 games and averaging 0.6 points, 1.8 rebs and 1.4 assists, while shooting 08.3%

If I didn’t know better I’d think we had decided to tank for the draft pick.

We could have flipped Afflalo to Atlanta for Jeff Teague and given Jimmer/Galloway the minutes at the 2.

Was this an option?

Hassan Whiteside. What if he weren’t a total headcase?

Quite a game last night in Miami….

Eh, Rodman and Barkley did just fine.

SKIP: CURRY HAVING ‘GREATEST SEASON EVER’
Skip Bayless uses his eyes — and one stat — to make his case.

OOH GUESS WHICH STAT IT IS, GUESS

I root for three teams (Mets, Knicks and Oakland Raiders) that are sort of… well, perennial losers, I guess you could say. All three teams have been plagued with terrible ownership and an addiction to a “win-now” mentality that has trapped them on a treadmill of mediocrity. In recent years, all three teams have made significant front office hires– Sandy Alderson, Phil Jackson and Reggie MacKenzie– who have emphasized “changing the culture” of the organization.

The Mets and Raiders committed to patient, long-term rebuilds that involved plenty of short-term pain. Obviously the Mets are seeing the fruits of that– they’re one of the better teams in the National League now and they have a healthy and sustainable payroll structure and loads of controllable young talent. The Raiders aren’t quite there yet, but MacKenzie has done a fine job with salary cap management and has snagged a handful of franchise type players in the last couple of drafts– Khalil Mack, Derek Carr, Amari Cooper and some other players who are solid starters. As a fan I get the sense that the Raiders are at least headed in the right direction, and the process is sound.

I don’t get that feeling from the Knicks. It’s hard to get excited about the future of the team when there is one– count ’em, ONE– good young cost-controlled player on the roster, with no chance of another one getting added to the fold until the 2017-2018 season. Phil was dealt a hand with a lot of low cards in it, but he hasn’t done a whole lot with that hand. The most frustrating part is that I feel like I can see the painful endgame here– Phil’s tenure ends, the team is insufferably mediocre for the entire run, then Dolan can say, “See, we tried rebuilding and it didn’t work, cuz you can’t rebuild in New York” and then Isiah is brought back in and we’re signing 32-year old John Wall and trading away the 2024 draft pick for whatever volume scorer that has worn out his…

@146

One valuable insight I have gleaned from reddit:

The New York Knicks are the Toronto Maple Leafs of basketball.

Think about it.

Well we know the Knicks can’t suck next year because it will cost Phil Jackson his job. Just get us a good coach and overpay one of DeRozan and Batum (preferably Batum).

Tommy Dee is as big a Knick apologist as there is in the world. Every move they made was great, including the Bargnani trade. He makes me embarrassed as a Knick fan.

He’s the worst basketball analyst I have ever come across.

I could summarize his total knowledge by saying he like the guys that score the most points and show show some tough shot making ability. So in other words, he’s kind of like some young fan that just started watching basketball. The only difference is that speaks authoritatively and fools fans.

Does that make the Sixers the Oilers?

Didn’t they have like three #1 overall picks in a row? And still cellar-dwellers?

Ummmm…

My bad.

Just found out that BBall Breakdown is not Tommy Dee. Turns out there’s a huge difference between Tommy Dee and Coach Nick.

SKIP: CURRY HAVING ‘GREATEST SEASON EVER’
Skip Bayless uses his eyes — and one stat — to make his case.

OOH GUESS WHICH STAT IT IS, GUESS

You can pretty much pick any stat, can’t you? I mean, it’s a pretty easy case to make, maybe not ever, but certainly of the modern era. Highest WS/48 ever, highest PER ever, highest TS% with a +20 usage ever, top 3 in points/minute. And his team is on course to win the most wins ever.

My favorite Steph fact is that it’s impossible to duplicate his play in NBA2K

It’s like being permanently “on fire” in NBA Jam

The video game studio is discussing making up a completely different set of parameters for him

@153 – Agree, Curry’s season stats are off the charts. It seems like just about every night he makes at least one completely ridiculous shot, and usually more than one. 50-5 is dominating the league.

We could have flipped Afflalo to Atlanta for Jeff Teague

They really couldn’t have.

He’s the worst basketball analyst I have ever come across.

I could summarize his total knowledge by saying he like the guys that score the most points and show show some tough shot making ability. So in other words, he’s kind of like some young fan that just started watching basketball. The only difference is that speaks authoritatively and fools fans.

Tommy Dee once wrote an article arguing that we should sign Lamar Odom and start him at shooting guard. I never went back the Knicks Blog after that.

No way Atlanta would’ve traded Teague for AA. Now, they might have bitten at Teague for AA and the #1 pick in 2018….but I’m glad Phil is at least not trading #1 picks away for short-sighted quick fixes.

You know, if Afflalo played in a different offense, he’d probably be really useful. A guy shooting north of 37% from 3 and 88% from the line should not be posting a 54.1 TS%. Or maybe if he played in the same offense with a true offensive superstar that could create more open looks for him. But yeah, he’s clearly struggling for stupid reasons.

Okay so maybe I jumped the gun. I still think Afflalo should have been traded.

Agreed. I think they should have traded pretty much anyone they could trade (except Porzingis).

Ooooh, Nets v Suns on tonight. Phoenix really did a remarkable job of fucking up a surprisingly good young team.

The problem with Afflalo is not scoring or scoring efficiency. It’s that he does very little at an above average level and now he’s a poor defender. So overall he’s a net negative.

Dubs have given up 61 in the first to the fucking Magic and are right in it because of their modern offense and Draymonds versati-nah, Steph is 9-12 for 22 points

You know, if Afflalo played in a different offense, he’d probably be really useful.

Nah. He’d still be a black hole, ball-stopper. He still wouldn’t create off the dribble, for himself or others. Still wouldn’t provide much in the way of rebounding and he’d still be an awful defender.

Plus his face would still be punchable.

As a bench scorer he’d be fine, I guess. If that’s really all you’re asking him to do, at least he does that reasonably efficiently.

You’d really like to see him take more than one FT, but guys don’t play like men anymore

first time anyone has ever gotten 51 points from throwing the ball at the rim only 28 times or fewer. dana barros once did 50 on 26 FGA and 2 FTA

Currently incessantly refreshing Youtube waiting for the FreeDawkins or GD Factory highlight video of said Curry ridiculousness

Wow, the Indy loss was the Knicks’ 100th since the beginning of last season. That’s kind of pathetic.

Sixers-esque is the Knicks’ recent track record, Brian. And they didn’t need some silly “Process” to do it!

It appears that whether or not you’re out to sea doesn’t affect our quality of play, unfortunately. Perhaps fly to the moon?

Oh that bad? But I heard that Jimmer is shooting at a 100% clip from three point range. How can we still be losing if that’s true?

Boy, even the robot that generates Knicks Morning News has checked out on this season…

Boy, even the robot that generates Knicks Morning News has checked out on this season…

Damn, DRed beat me to that joke by a few minutes. But it’s too depressing to read any stories about the team right now, including those reports that Boston may have offered David Lee and the Brooklyn pick for Melo.

@184 I mean, the LEAST he could do is one last favor for the Knicks by engineering a similar exit to the way he left Denver.

Isn’t there still time after the season’s over to take Boston up on their offer? It’s pretty comical that now one of the best case scenarios for this season is “crush Melo’s spirit by losing so much that he wants to leave for Boston, therefore getting back into the draft.”

But it’s too depressing to read any stories about the team right now, including those reports that Boston may have offered David Lee and the Brooklyn pick for Melo.

If you want to be more depressed, I read that they offered another draft pick in addition to the Brooklyn pick.

one of the best case scenarios for this season is “crush Melo’s spirit by losing so much that he wants to leave for Boston, therefore getting back into the draft.”

Unfortunately, even if Anthony didn’t have a no-trade clause, trading him to Boston would be a non-starter. The Knicks simply wouldn’t trade the face of their franchise within their division, especially to the Celtics, no matter what.

Which is, of course, too bad, because the Celtics made a killing sending Pierce and Garnett to their division rivals a few years ago. But for NY, the fear of the Celtics winning in the short-run sits greater than the fear of the Knicks losing in the long run.

i was wondering if boston and lee would have been a trade partner that made sense. They would have had to throw in a player too to make the $$ work…..I wonder who it would have been, if this is true at all.

Guess we will never know.

My lord, I would trade Melo for that Nets pick faster than Donald Trump can denigrate an immigrant….

Someone could do that joke much much much better….

faster than a naked Ted Cruz can make his own wife vomit in her own mouth

faster than Barack Obama can order a drone strike on foreign innocents

faster than Hilary Clinton can get a lunch date with a finance lobbyist

Unfortunately, even if Anthony didn’t have a no-trade clause, trading him to Boston would be a non-starter. The Knicks simply wouldn’t trade the face of their franchise within their division, especially to the Celtics, no matter what.

I’m going to just go ahead and pretend that the “Melo-for-Brooklyn-pick” trade was never on the table, rather than have to deal with the idea that the Knicks don’t want to trade “the face of the franchise” for an unprotected lottery pick that has a very good chance of turning into Ben Simmons or Brandon Ingram.

And then someday in, oh, I don’t know, 2019 or something I’m not going to let it bother me when Ben Simmons is dropping 50 on us for the Celtics, while Melo sits on the Knick bench in a suit and tie because his knee has degenerated into a blob of reddish brown Play-Doh– you know, the color of Play-Doh you get when your kid just mixes up all of the different colors. That isn’t going to bother me at all, because I will have told myself that the Melo-for-Nets-pick trade was never a possibility.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/240989/Several-Teams-Expected-To-Pursue-Carmelo-Anthony-In-Offseason

If the knicks weren’t at least thinking about trading Melo, I don’t think we’d be seeing all of these rumors. IMO, best case scenario for the rest of this season is that we continue to flame out to the point that Melo decides he doesn’t want to be here any more and OKs an off-season trade. If we go on a good streak now, I don’t see him wanting to leave. But if we end the year with like, 30 wins? One can hope.

I doubt there were any real trade talks. It turns out that Melo stands to make much more on his trade bonus once the cap goes up next year. What probably happened was the Knicks went to Melo (or his agent) and asked if there was any way he’d waive his no trade clause since there was interest out there, and Melo said, “hell no, ask again in the summer”.

All this trade smoke probably means there’s fire. I’m tentatively predicting that Melo waives the NTC this summer and gets dealt.

Yeah, unless we have a miracle turnaround and squeeze into the 8 seed, I think it’s more likely than not that Melo gets traded this summer. It really seems to be best for all parties.

The Brooklyn pick that may or may not have been offered for Melo isn’t as valuable as it seems. The Nets have the fourth-worst record right now, which means the pick only has a 12% chance of being #1 and a 39% chance of being Top 3. The most likely outcome for that pick is #5 (a 35% chance).

This draft is supposed to be pretty weak after Simmons.

These are the last 10 #5 picks. Not exactly a murderer’s row.

Hezonja
Exum
Len
Thomas Robinson
Valanciunas
Cousins
Rubio
Love
Jeff Green
Shelden Williams

Let’s discount Hezonja and Exum since they’re too new to judge. Taking the other eight guys, plus the #5 pick from the two prior drafts (Felton and Devin Harris), I would rank them like this in order of quality:

Cousins
Love
Rubio
Valanciunas
Jeff Green
Harris
Felton
Len
Thomas Robinson
Shelden Williams

If it’s true that this draft is weak, the #5 pick is more likely to be on the lower end of that list in terms of quality. Let’s say Ray Felton-level. So while getting the Brooklyn pick gives us a 12% chance at potential superstar Ben Simmons, the most likely outcome is drafting a guy that is about the quality of Ray Felton.

God knows we can get a lot more for Melo than rookie Ray Felton and cap filler.

The fifth pick in last year’s draft was very valuable because there were a lot of good players available. If the Magic fucked the pick up that’s a different issue

The BK pick is super overrated. This draft looks to be hot garbage. But Ingram or Simmons would be nice.

The Brooklyn pick isn’t as valuable as it seems… a 12% chance of being #1

That 12% chance is a lot better prospect than the Knicks current 0% chance of being good with Carmelo.

Anybody concerned that Melo trade speculation presupposes James Dolan will stay out of things when, maybe he won’t?

Also if that’s not a barrier to a Melo trade, is there no confidence in The Almighty Clarence Gaines’s ability to identify a worthy prospect who would be available with any pick we make? Even in shitty lotto years there’s often a player or two down in the draft who can contribute.

Past the #1 pick, draft picks are always gambles. The reason they’re valuable is because of their variance. If you intend to win a championship, you need to get lucky. Without high variance players, even with luck at 100%, you aren’t going to improve enough to contend for a title.

The analogy I like is to a dice game. Say you are playing a winner take all game where highest roll wins. Each player has the option of picking one of two dice:

1) Die #1 is 100 sided and can roll anywhere from 1-100.

2) Die #2 is 10 sided and can roll anywhere from 48-57.

Against one opponent, you will win the pot more with die #2, but the more opponents you have who pick die #1, the less valuable die #2 becomes.

Say, for example, ten of your opponents choose die #1. The odds that all 10 of them roll a 57 or lower is .57^10 or one in 277. So you have a 1 in 277 chance of winning (or tying) when you roll your highest possible number with die #2.

of course, your average with die #2 will always be better, but this is winner take all, right? That’s why even if a #5 pick averages a Ray Felton caliber player, the fact that it can generate a Demarcus Cousins makes it more valuable than a more stable (at least in the short term!) asset like Carmelo.

And all this doesn’t even factor in the financial side with rookie contracts and restricted free agency.

I LOVE THE CYNICISM THIS BOARD HAS SUCCUMBED TO

WELCOME TO THE COCK JOWLES HATER BANDWAGON

@209

Max, great analogy. I’m with you.

I’d point out, though, that some chances are more worth taking than others. Trading for the lottery pick of the 14th-worst team in the league technically gives you a shot at the #1 pick and a superstar, but it’s a tiny tiny chance. Giving up a good player for that pick is probably not worth the risk. The Nets pick isn’t that bad, but I feel like it’s not as good as people think it is. If Brooklyn had the second-worst record in the league, our chances of getting Simmons would still be small, but it might be worth the risk.

I just don’t feel like a 12% chance at Simmons and only a 39% chance at a Top 3 pick is worth giving up Melo. His trade value is still higher than that. You may disagree.

When the three-way Cavs-Celtics-Knicks trade was floated, I wanted to get Crowder, the Brooklyn pick, and two of their six second-rounders.

The 2011 draft was weak at the top (our own Derrick Williams and Jimmer Freddette were in the top 10!). Yet it still produced 2 franchise players outside the top 10: Khwai Leonard, Klay Thompson, and Jimmy Butler.

Like Max says, the draft is a gamble. But the way to win at the draft is to give yourself multiple chances to get lucky. Don’t trade your picks! And collect whoever else’s picks you can along the way.

There will be a good player drafted between 5 and 60 this June. But you can’t win in the game if you don’t play in the game.

@210 We’ve embraced the darkest timeline; bitter scorn is more cathartic that Ruru-style optimism

Welcome to the Player Haters’ Ball

HATE HATE HATE

@196
or, faster than Chris Christie can bandwagon a smothered chicken-fried steak into his gaping maw amirite

@207 I found the rookie contract to be your most salient point; even if this draft looks like trash, it’s worth the young player on a rookie deal

I just don’t feel like a 12% chance at Simmons and only a 39% chance at a Top 3 pick is worth giving up Melo.

12% is a little misleading. There are still 25 games to play. The Nets will definitely end up as one of the worst teams in the league. And they could fall lower than they currently sit. What if Lopez gets hurt? What if Phoenix plays better under their new coach? What if the Lakers have a Tim Hardaway Jr. on their team that accidentally gets hot in the closing weeks? What if Philly kids grow up and string together a few like they did last year towards the end? A “12%” chance today means very little when it comes to who will actually be selected with that pick at the end of June.

I just don’t feel like a 12% chance at Simmons and only a 39% chance at a Top 3 pick is worth giving up Melo.

I would trade Melo for any 1st rounder regardless of his perceived value.

I don’t want him here when his knees explode after playing 40 minutes per game.

I refuse to believe you couldn’t replace Melo’s production with his salary. Even after the cap goes up.

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