Roundtable: Gallo/Melo, Second Scorer, and Fisher

Who will have the higher TS% when the season is over: Carmelo Anthony or Langston Galloway?

Kurylo: Carmelo. Right now Galloway leads 63.0% to 50.3%. I want to say Langston, given all the hard work he’s put in to become a better player. However his 3p% is at 60% and is propping up that ts%. If we knock his 3p% down to last year’s rate of 35.2%, Gallo’s ts% drops to 50%. Or in simpler terms, Galloway isn’t hitting enough of his other shots (1s & 2s) to give me hope.

Domenic: Carmelo Anthony. Once Galloway’s 3P% normalizes (35 to 37% is my guess), I see his TS% hovering around 50%. He only shot 42.4% on 2s last season and (small sample size alert) is only shooting 37.5% this year. He’ll have to turn that around dramatically and get to the line a hell of a lot more to keep up.

Plugh: Carmelo Anthony (I hope). Galloway has a lot more talent around him than he did last year, and the dream would be that he can play within the framework of a better offense. If his efficiency goes up because he isn’t a bailout guy, or the best of bad options, it would be lovely. Gorgeous, in fact. But…you really want the answer to be Carmelo Anthony given the volume he produces. He seems to be playing better team ball so far, despite some very isolate-y business in recent games, and I think you’ll see his TS% bubble up as the team starts to give him better situations to get himself going. Afflalo should help here, and Calderon’s continued shooting will as well. (Hear me, Jose. Hang on.)

Fisher-Cohen: Without reading his comment, I just typed out the exact same thing as Mike, so yeah, I agree with Mike. I don’t expect a great year from Melo, but it would have to be an awful year for him to drop below Galloway, who looks headed towards a 48-52% TS%.

Who will be the second scorer behind Carmelo Anthony?

Kurylo: I can’t say Porzingis, last second shot or not, because he’s too inconsistent on offense, and fouls will keep him on the bench throughout his first season. As I said above Galloway is propped up by his magmatic three point shooting. Jose Calderon is clearly Bibbying. And I don’t know about Afflalo yet. So I’m going with no one. They’re going to need a team effort to score, and not rely on a single person for secondary scoring. I’m sure Tex Winter agrees.

Domenic: I think Fisher will give Porzingis every opportunity to be the second option on offense, and it’ll be up to him to make the most of that. If he can stay out of foul trouble and find his stroke, the team will be forced to get him the ball and allow him to make things happen. At the very least, his propensity for electric putbacks will help him get his own easy buckets without being a focal point. Afflalo is my uninspired second guess – I imagine the Knicks offered him a decently large role to come on-board.

Plugh: It’s got to be Afflalo, right? Porzingis might end up being a mega-evolved Pokemon at some point, but for now the expectations have to be a bit lower. He’s clearly one of the best players on the floor every night, and he seems to figure something out during each game. Afflalo is going to shoot. He’s aggressive and he knows he’s an established veteran. Fisher seems to like the established veteran thing, as much as he likes the workhorse journeyman. Those are his favorite toys. Afflalo can fill it up when he’s given the opportunity, and there’s opportunity on the Knicks, if nothing else.

Fisher-Cohen: I’m going to be optimistic and say Porzingis. He has a good level of comfort catching and shooting from around 12’, using a jab step to create space, not that he needs much. Most guys guarding him can’t reach high enough to bother him when he pulls up. I’m also hopeful that as the year goes on, Fisher will try him more as a primary guy with the second unit, where the faster pace can generate more easy opportunities for him. A lot of this depends on where the Knicks are in the standings and whether guys like Lance Thomas and Kyle O’Quinn continue to give Fisher alternatives.

Fisher has shown a strong preference for playing vets “when the game counts”, so if the Knicks are fighting for a playoff spot, I could easily see things going the opposite direction, with Porzingis’s minutes, confidence and opportunities all dwindling.

Grade Derek Fisher’s performance so far (on a scale from 1-5).

Kurylo: 3. Pleasantly, he’s been better than I expected. Say what you want about his handling of Calderon, but Galloway is ahead on minutes and Grant is just behind Jose. The offense has been better than expected, even though (as I said above) they don’t have a second scorer. And now the defense is ranked 16th. Additionally I like his play calling out of timeouts (if the Knicks had .1 more seconds, that Porzingis play would have worked) has been good, which New York hasn’t had in years. Finally I really like that he was tossed in the Laker game. Players tend to like coaches who appears to be on their side (see: Ryan, Rex; Ryan, Buddy, etc.), and winning the players over is half the battle.

Domenic: 3. My only criticism of Fisher would be his minutes distribution, but it’s difficult to blame that entirely on him. With Afflalo out, not giving minutes to Calderon and Vujacic would have meant giving 35-plus minutes per to the inexperienced duo of Galloway and Grant. That probably wouldn’t have been a bad thing – but I can’t fault Fisher for leaning on his veterans a bit in the first eighth of the season. If Afflalo being back means reduced minutes for Galloway and Grant instead of those veterans, though, it’ll be a different story. The team is middle of the pack in offense and defense despite a great deal of overhaul, and Fisher hasn’t actively hurt them with inane substitutions or sets. I suppose I could nitpick his usage of Porzingis, but the luscious Latvian hasn’t helped matters by finding himself in foul trouble several times.

Plugh: Boy…..I guess I’ll say 3 as well. On a game to game basis it can range between 2 and 4, so 3 seems like an average. He’s been stubborn about playing Calderon and Vujacic during the young season, and for the time being it seems like some of the Calderon faith is paying off. Paying off in the lowest common denominator sort of way. Vujacic deteriorated before our very eyes. I always liked his energy and activity level, which were a double-edged sword, but he got worse as he was exposed several games in. I don’t like Porzingis on the bench so much in the 4th quarter. I think he wants a less mistake-prone squad closing out games, which is a nice change from recent years, but he’s also sacrificing the largely positive impacts Kristaps brings on defense, in my opinion. You save him from foul trouble so he can keep altering shots aggressively later in the game, so let him do it. Fisher’s been better more often than not, but I haven’t developed a whole lot of confidence in him so far. I have to see him transition some of the younger players into more prominent roles as the season goes on. If he does that successfully, and the Knicks get better as a whole at the same time, I think he’s done his job very well. The alternative is eerily similar to Byron Scott, which no one wants. (I don’t expect that, for the record. No one is as bad as Byron Scott.)

Fisher-Cohen: I went off on Fisher some in my last recap, but he hasn’t been much different from the standard coach archetype. He experiments some, but he gives up on his experiments quickly. He prefers veterans just because they’re veterans. He coddles his star by letting isolate towards the end of close games. Most of my irritation with him is not his fault. I don’t like the Knicks’ split focus on winning immediately and developing youth. It’s an approach that has benefits such as allowing younger players to play smaller roles and develop confidence, but I feel strongly that it only makes sense for teams that aren’t already tremendously talent poor like the Knicks. Fisher’s choices to play vets over kids are part of the greater machinery of the Knicks organization, and to be fair, aren’t really his fault.

So sure, have a 3, Derek Fisher. You’re better than Mike Woodson even if you’re less entertaining.

204 replies on “Roundtable: Gallo/Melo, Second Scorer, and Fisher”

Wow, not a whole lot of variance among the minds of the round table. Either this is the least controversial Knick team ever, or something needs to be shaken up 🙂

I try to ignore Stephen A Smith to the extent possible, so I have no idea what he’s been saying lately. I’m curious — does anyone know if he’s made any recent comments about Porzingis?

@johnno

I refuse to acknowledge he exists….but….he’s hedged some this past week, from what I hear. He still purposely mispronounces his name and such, but he’s laying off the criticism a bit. It makes him look twice as stupid as he actually is, which is a lot.

The condemnable thing is the combination of his tone and volume with his lack of research. He’d never seen Porzingis play, but he felt comfortable shouting to the rooftops about the bamboozling of it all. That’s the dictionary definition of ignorance. It’s willful ignorance, which is the worst kind.

Agreed on Fisher. About average thus far. 2 things I think he needs to address, pronto.

1. Melo constantly get shots blocked because he can’t get off the ground anymore. This has been one of his biggest issues over the last 3 years. I think it has made him tentative on drives. The ISO fadeaways are killing me. Fish needs to get with him and figure something out.

2. I love Jerian Grant but he needs to stop with the jump passes. There are the weakest spot in his game. The next time he does that – even if it works – Fish needs to bench him.

I wonder if this was asked after game one whether anyone would have said Derrick Williams for the question about secondary scorer.

@sekou

I think a lot of those blocks are Melo forcing the action, trying to get to the line. When things aren’t developing, he knows that he can put the refs in a spot that they have to choose. If the chances are 50/50 that he gets a whistle on all that contact, he’ll win some and lose some, but that can be a more attractive alternative to firing up a crazy shot from distance. I’m not sure it’s 100% about lift or athleticism at this point, although I think those are Melo things to be concerned with for sure.

@max

That’s a good question. I never liked his game and while I wasn’t all that upset about the signing, I didn’t expect much. I started to buy in a bit in preseason, and after that game I thought he might become a consistent 12-ish point scorer with some big nights mixed in. The rest of his game is so flaky, though, he can’t stay on the floor enough to get consistent points. I wouldn’t have picked him to be more than 3rd on the team at the start of the year, and I would have probably settled in at 4th or 5th in my clearest moments.

Can’t believe how easy everyone is on Fisher in these rating. In terms of doing things that will mold and shape a team that can someday go deep into playoffs, I’d give him a 1. They’ve got some talent that needs to be developed while they learn how to win. I’m just hoping he doesn’t derail KP, Grant and the other young players.

@drm1977

We’re 8 games in. I mentioned that I thought he needed to successfully develop the youngsters this season, and eventually have them take on a larger role. He was never going to do it this soon, nor should he have. Galloway and Grant have been given the lion’s share of minutes at the guard spots and Porzingis is a starter. He’s not going to turn the keys over to them 100% until he’s comfortable they’ve seen enough situations to handle things, and that he doesn’t expose them too much, too soon so the league can key in on their weaknesses and destroy them completely.

He’s done a pretty good job overall, even though I’m tempted to criticize him in particular moments.

The condemnable thing is the combination of his tone and volume with his lack of research. He’d never seen Porzingis play, but he felt comfortable shouting to the rooftops about the bamboozling of it all. That’s the dictionary definition of ignorance. It’s willful ignorance, which is the worst kind.

I’ve said it before, but the dumbest thing SAS said about the Porzingis pick was as follows, “Then, with Willie Caulie Stein available, then with Justise Winslow available, then with Emmanuel Mudiay available, you passed on all of that for some dude none of us have ever seen play.”

Oh, unlike, say, the dude who played in China last year?!?!

Ugh.

Fisher’s stock dropped at the end of the Charlotte game. First, we watched yet another unsuccessful Melo ISO at the very end. Melo has been anti-clutch the last few years, making something like less than 10% of game-winning shots. How about Melo/Zinger PnR? Zinger should always get a reasonable look even if opponents trap hard. I only hope Fisher is more aware of Melo/Zinger PnR than Woodson was of the Melo/Amare PnR. That is a key to transforming Melo’s game and integrating Zinger into the offense. But that was not even Fisher’s most egregious error. Because the in-bound pass was from the baseline, he should have had Zinger shaded toward the paint guarding the guy throwing the ball in. Zinger not only would have made that pass very difficult but would have been in position to grab any rebound.

Can’t believe how easy everyone is on Fisher in these rating. In terms of doing things that will mold and shape a team that can someday go deep into playoffs, I’d give him a 1. They’ve got some talent that needs to be developed while they learn how to win. I’m just hoping he doesn’t derail KP, Grant and the other young players.

Do we really know how much talent Fisher is working with?

That’s a crucial question. What if Porzingis is not as good as we think? Is there any solid reason to believe that if Grant and the rest of the young players never amount to anything (as the odds would suggest) it will be because of Fisher?

I’m not a Fisher fan, but the truth is he is doing better than anyone could have expected. We have a shitty roster, after all.

@mikeplugh

Agree with your analysis, and within the context of 8 games and an entirely new squad, I’d agree that Fisher has done a creditable job. Reviewing the entire body of work — from the shell-shocked first games last year to the workman-like game management of these games — he hasn’t demonstrated the kind of point of view and personality that a coach who can build a winning program has.

Those coaches come in all types and sizes, although they are few and far between. You’ve got the intense Riley types, the human geniuses like Popovich, the harebrained inspiration of Nelson, the competitive intensity of Sloan. Does Fisher have any distinctive coaching persona? It’s hard to tell.

I didn’t think it mattered until I watched these first 8 games. KP is something different, and he could be a special player. There’s so much uncertainty and infinite variables that go into how that future will play out, but a key one is the coach and the organization.

So, to be charitable, I guess I would give Fisher an incomplete — it’s too soon to grade him — but the grade is heavily weighted to how well he brings KP along. And hopefully Jackson is watching actively, aware of how high the stakes are, and won’t be afraid to make any kind of bold move necessary.

The Galloway/Melo TS% is a very interesting question. Galloway’s 2P% of 42.4% last season is probably more representative than his YTD stat because of larger sample size and he will almost certainly outperform his 3FG% of 35% last season for a couple of reasons. This summer he tried to make 500 3s per day and he improved his mechanics. Quote: Last year, I came out of a lot of shots. I was shooting (and would) back up a little bit. Just little details. This year, I’m shooting in and I’m staying right there and it feels a lot better and I’m staying balanced with a lot of my shots. So that helps.

The second reason is that in college he shot a very healthy 42.6% from 3 on over 800 attempts It would be nice to execute a query showing how many players shot 42%+ in college on X #attempts and shot below 40% in the pros (not sure how to do that or if it’s even possible). But below are the college/pro 3FG% of guards who shot 40+% on over 2000 attempts. Six were below their college # while 4 shot better in the pros (first # is college).
S.Curry—– 41/44
Nash——- 40/43
Person—– 44/42
Bell——— 35/41
B. Barry—- 35/40
Houston—- 42/40
Price——- 44/40
Gordon—- 42/40
Redick—– 41/40
Allen—— 45/40

I try to ignore Stephen A Smith to the extent possible, so I have no idea what he’s been saying lately. I’m curious — does anyone know if he’s made any recent comments about Porzingis?

Here are his latest thoughts.

I have an issue with Fisher’s substitutions and his adherence to the veteran’s first mentality which gives guys like Vujacic and Calderon too many minutes at the expense of other players. Now, with that said, it bears noting that Grant and Galloway haven’t been perfect by any means. Like we saw in Charlotte, their perimeter defense allowed Lamb and Lin to abuse the hell out of our team. But I’d like to see Fisher seek different combinations that work in the moment, including playing PorzinGod at the 5 when Lopez has sat down, using Amundson more often than Serpahin, an giving Cleanthony Early some love.

I like that Fish is playing Grant and Galloway together. I’ve written why the sum is greater than the parts but also Grant guarding 2s instead of 1s helps with his stamina allowing him to focus more on playmaking. I don’t mind Fish playing them on the 2nd team for a while but eventually he’s got to play them with the starters. Grant’s 23yo and needs to climb the steep learning curve of a 1. He’s gonna have to work on his 3ball this summer but there’s no reason to believe he’ll continue to brick mid-range shots and his dimes/turnover ratio is excellent at this stage. This is the approach Fish should soon be taking IMHO. Calderon and Afflalo are transitional figures who, if we’re lucky, will both transition out of here next summer.

Remember the high-energy, fast-paced second unit led by Sprewell? That didn’t last long because opponents adapted and the coach realized that some of the players on that second unit were better used as starters (if my memory is right).

Add JR Smith to the growing list of NBA pros riding the PorzinGod bandwagon:

“He’s better than I thought. He’s tall as s—t too. I thought he was like a stiff or something… but when I saw him come to the Q it was like, ‘He could be something special. He could be the next Dirk. It’s just a matter of his work ethic, he’s still young. But if Dirk ever decides to take someone under his wing, and he takes him, he’s going to be a problem.”

“Here are his latest thoughts.”
Thank you for reminding me why I try to ignore this guy. What a blowhard…

As near as I can tell, all the responses to the Fisher question are of the eye test nature. His substitutions aren’t right, his plays he calls aren’t good, he doesn’t look right on the sideline and so on. There aren’t many coach stats, so this is understandable, but there still is won loss record, which is clearly not an eye test. If we lose to Cleveland tonight, that will give a 4 and 6 record and a 40% winning percentage. That extrapolates out to 36+ wins this season, which is better than any plus minus I saw before the season and equal or better than most predictions I saw on this board. So those of you saying Fisher is bad, are you saying the players are much better than expected? It is early, and lots could go wrong; but, based on the team’s record, I think a three now is very fair. If the Knicks have won more than 40% of their games at the end of December, I would think his rating might get better than this.

Fisher reminds me a lot of Doc Rivers, except I don’t see him being as good. And I don’t think Doc Rivers is very good.

He’s keeping a seat warm, IMHO. It’s going to take a few years to put together good young talent. Best to let one person manage them, even if that person isn’t the best strategist. I don’t think he’ll ever be more than a 3 out of 5. But I also don’t fear he’ll be a 1, which is nice for now.

While not totally serious (as obviously it doesn’t actually matter), I really do have a bit of a problem with Fisher’s beard game. Why in the hell would you go out of your way to look like Mike Woodson?!?

JR jumping on the bandwagon is not a good sign….

How about Lebron?

“I think he’s a pretty good player. I think he has a bright future if he continues to get better. The NBA lifestyle and the NBA life will automatically make him stronger. If you put in the work in the gym, he will get stronger and I think he knows how to play the game.”

I honestly don’t care what our record is this year, and the coach shouldn’t either. The Knicks are at best a 1st round playoff out, so the focus this season should be doing what’s best for the future. Unfortunately, neither the coach nor the GM/President seem that focused on the future. They care more than previous regimes, but there’s still a kind of sad desperation to the choices they’ve made that suggests they can’t let go of the short term mindset.

Jackson’s obsession with cap space leading up to free agency and the player options he gave free agents were moves that sacrificed the future for minor bumps in the present. Fisher’s decision to go with vets, especially in crunch time. These decisions just feel a little disgusting to me, like watching a dad blow his kid’s college fund on a Corvette because his hairline has started to recede.

They are moves that feel like their coming out of insecurity and pride. Other than their scale, these moves are no different from Sacramento’s decision to give away picks to get out of Landry and Thompson’s deals. The King’s gave up the opportunity to get better in the future to try to get better now. The Knicks gave up the opportunity to trade Tyson or Shumpert for picks so they could get out of the contracts of JR and Felton. In my mind, there’s no difference between trading picks for cap space and trading assets that could have been traded for picks for cap space.

But Fisher, like most coaches, can’t go against his GM’s plans. Calderon, sadly, is one of Jackson’s marquee acquisitions. He traded the Knicks’ best asset pre-Porzingis for him, essentially. And Jackson’s moves — bringing in guys like Lopez and Afflalo — are basically mandates to Fisher that he should be balancing the now with the future rather than just thinking long term.

Dude is averaging 12 pts and 9 boards in 25 mins / game.
-shooting under 40%, 20% from 3 (2.7 attempts / game)
-3.8 fouls / game

– tell me that shooting % isn’t going to rise? he’s not going to stay at 20% from 3. It will either improve or he will take less of them.
– His minutes will rise. The foul trouble is part of it, but how often does he get a few and then Fisher is slow to put him back in?
– He’s played with no outside shooter besides Galloway. Tell me Afflalo won’t open things up a bit?
– He’s not really getting his number called. Run a few plays for him

I think all these things add up to 13 – 15 pts / game in the 2nd half. I don’t think that’s too agressive

I looked at a few of the scouting videos and then the recent highlights and, maybe it’s because I know that he’s gained some weight, but Porzingis looks quite a bit more muscular than he did last year. While that probably is helping him in a lot of areas (like rebounding and defense), is it possible that a lot of weight lifting is hindering his outside shooting stroke?

@29

Man, is that satisfying. Those are some high percentage shots.

@26

Max, usually you’re a stat-based font of reason, but this all feels a bit emotional to me:

But Fisher, like most coaches, can’t go against his GM’s plans. Calderon, sadly, is one of Jackson’s marquee acquisitions. He traded the Knicks’ best asset pre-Porzingis for him, essentially. And Jackson’s moves — bringing in guys like Lopez and Afflalo — are basically mandates to Fisher that he should be balancing the now with the future rather than just thinking long term.

Where was Calderon presented as a marquee addition? Even at the time it was pretty clearly stated as a “we think he’s a good player, should work in the system” acquisition who came in to replace Felton, who was, at that time, worse than garbage. Armed garbage. And as the season has gone, he’s begun to perform nearer his career averages. Bad on D, decent on O; more experienced that two rookies (Gallo’s practically a rook), but getting less time in recognition of their better performance and more important futures.

As for bringing in Lopez, who knew what we had in Porzingis? Meanwhile here’s a chance to pick up a solid pro at a decent salary, a team-first guy who makes the players around him look better. (Including Zeller.) Since we have no draft pick in 2016, and since Lopez is a value contract that he’s almost certain to outperform, how is that a bad move?

Yes, Fish does have to balance win-now with thinking long term, but of his many flaws, sacrificing the present for the future hasn’t been one of them. (Which, again, is especially pertinent given WE HAVE NO DRAFT CHOICE THIS YEAR). Porzingis is starting, Grant and Gallo are playing big minutes – not sure where your argument is here.

I looked at a few of the scouting videos and then the recent highlights and, maybe it’s because I know that he’s gained some weight, but Porzingis looks quite a bit more muscular than he did last year. While that probably is helping him in a lot of areas (like rebounding and defense), is it possible that a lot of weight lifting is hindering his outside shooting stroke?

It was definitely a concern at the time that the addition of weight, which he obviously needed to do what he is doing right now (which is great), could possibly mess with his then-current game. I think the trade-off is more than worth it, though, as let’s say he doesn’t recover the outside shooting (I think he will, but let’s say he doesn’t), the stuff he is doing now (the rebounding and the interior game) is almost certainly more valuable long term than him being a good outside shooter but being unable to do what he’s been doing in the middle.

@16 – Thanks for posting that SAS verbal diarrhea clip. Unfortunately I had to X out of it before I went into an irrational rage at work…. And yeah, you gotta love how he mispronounces his name “Pore-jing-ass”

@24

JR jumping on the bandwagon is not a good sign….

As long as he doesn’t start taking KP out clubbing, I’m OK with him admiring Kristaps.

Re: Secondary scorer. I think this needs to be looked at from the starting lineup only. In that case I see it bounce between Afflalo and Porzingis.

Re: Fisher grade. I think “3” is fair and that’s how I would grade Fisher but I have some points to make about his coaching.
1) Rotations – It seems strange to have 2 set lineups but that may just turn out to be a very clever move. What he’s done is force guys to develop chemistry with each other on the two squads. I have to say, it seems to be working.
2) Triangle – He tinkered with the triangle and injected a quicker pace into the repertoire of the team. That seems to be working. The team does not look robotic.
3) Matt Barnes – He loses points for that whole mess.
4) Handling Players – His 13 man rotation is interesting. Everyone is seeing time on the floor. I think that helps keep everyone motivated.

@34

The Matt Barnes thing is Matt Barnes’ fault. Fish can date whoever he wants to date, and while it might seem like bad form to date your ex-teammates’ ex….turning it into a violent situation (physical or psychological violence) is totally uncalled for. If the worst crime Fish committed was a “bro code” thing, it has no bearing on him as a coach or a leader. At all.

Just my two cents. I could be wrong.

@35 – He could have handled it better and he missed practice because of it. I agree that Matt Barnes is the jerk, but the event didn’t make Fisher look good.

I’m not sure how he could have handled it better. He was at her house. Barnes showed up to confront him. If Barnes hadn’t showed up, he would have enjoyed a nice day, hopped a plane, and attended practice.

@rama — I didn’t mean Calderon was the future face of the franchise, but his acquisition was and IMO continues to be the biggest decision other than re-signing Melo that PJ has made so far simply because he was the biggest incoming asset in the trade that sent out our biggest asset. It’s the same reason Woodson had to play Bargnani. No one thought Bargnani was going to be a great player, but the assets we gave up to get him were proof that the front office thought he was valuable. Woodson had no choice there.

As far as Rolo goes, I like him, but do you consider him a value? This isn’t like when Atlanta picked up Millsap on a crazy cheap contract because it was willing to wait till the end of free agency and hunt for deals — because it wasn’t desperate to add pieces, because it was willing to risk not spending its free agent money. Rolo is a fine pickup at his salary. He’s a funny guy and he has no ego. But he wasn’t a steal.

Assets are assets. How you spend them defines your intent. Cap space, draft picks, players with trade value — they all can be distilled down to your team’s capital, and you can either invest that capital for the future or spend it now. Using cap money on Rolo was a choice to spend our cap money on the present rather than invest it. Afflalo and Derrick Williams’ deals tilt even more in the present now because Jackson structured their deals to be cheaper now while sacrificing any potential for them to be cheaper in the future.

Am I emotional? Of course I am. I desperately want the team to win. And maybe that causes me to exaggerate some, but I hope there’s a kernel of truth here.

As far as the lack of a pick this year goes, we aren’t punished for losing more games. Trying to avoid giving away a high pick (which would go to the Western Conference anyway) doesn’t help the Knicks at all.

The Matt Barnes thing is Matt Barnes’ fault. Fish can date whoever he wants to date, and while it might seem like bad form to date your ex-teammates’ ex….turning it into a violent situation (physical or psychological violence) is totally uncalled for. If the worst crime Fish committed was a “bro code” thing, it has no bearing on him as a coach or a leader. At all.

Bad form, but when a person decides to move on, his or her previous partners have no claim to their bodies. You just gotta be an adult and move on with it. Violence in this situation is just batshit insane.

I still think Derek Fisher is a bad coach.

@39

I still think Derek Fisher is a bad coach.

That remains to be seen, but I’m completely open to that possibility. I hope he ends up being amazing, but so far it’s shaky at best.

@26

Jackson’s moves … are basically mandates to Fisher that he should be balancing the now with the future rather than just thinking long term.

Why is this ill-advised? Doesn’t ignoring the short term have long term costs also? Without Lopez and Afflalo, e.g. with Seraphin and Vujacic instead, “the now” might be awful. And stinking horribly again this year could have a bad effect on the development of KP, Grant, O’Quinn, Willy H, and Gallo, no? I think they gain a lot from being surrounded by high character vets on an improving club that exceeds expectations. I suspect that benefit is worth the opportunity cost of their contracts. I also suspect that Lopez might be undervalued because of his unimpressive stats.

I still think Derek Fisher is a bad coach.

I’m convinced he is a bad coach coaching a bad team.

@unreason

High character vets can be had for the vet’s minimum or can be acquired in trade once their contracts supercede their value. Carl Landry could have come here as our high character vet and brought along two first rounders and a prospect. But Carl Landry isn’t as good as Robin Lopez. That’s the difference.

We could have signed Mike James or Luis Scola or Andre Miller or Tayshaun Prince for peanuts.

What would that have cost the Knicks? 5 wins or so? Are you really going to argue that those 5 wins are going to have a greater impact for the Knicks long term than even just those picks that Philly got in the trade with Sacramento?

The benefit of having a Luis Scola or Andre Miller is that you don’t have to defer to those guys. They don’t have the status or salary of Calderon or Rolo, so if your young guys earn the minutes, you can give them to them.

Lastly, look at your list of young players and compare it against any team in the league that has recently risen to elite. Go back and look at that team’s roster and collection of picks before it ascended. Do the Knicks have anywhere near the overall quantity and quality of young players/picks that OKC or Houston or Golden State had? To me, it’s not even close.

We could easily move Lopez next year if we needed to. He’s a good player on a good contract. Lopez makes the same amount as Derrick Afflalo.

Are the Sixers really the franchise that you want the Knicks to emulate? It must be brutal to be a Sixers fan. They are sitting through three straight years that are worse than the Knicks’ season that we all hated so much last year. And the jury is still very much out on whether they are going to be even decent in the next few years. And Nik Stauskas has a WS48 below zero right now.

Philly only got one pick from Sacto. They got two swap rights, which we couldn’t have offered becuase Bargs and they are still so taent poor (in part because they are playing Nick Stauskas) that they might end up with a lower pick than Sacto anyhow.

I don’t think you’re clearly wrong, Max. But after we stupidly resigned Melo we were never going to beat teams like Philly when it comes to bottom feeding

No game thread yet so I’ll chill about tonight’s match.

As to whether the Barnes incident is a negative mark on Fisher:
@37 – He could have worked it out with Barnes before he started dating his ex. It’s bro-code. You might argue one way or another, but to those now playing for him, it paints a certain image of who Fisher is and how he’ll deal with you going forward. This is an image thing more than anything but it’s not good.

Teams are starting to get cute and single cover Carmelo Anthony. It’s not a good defensive strategy unless you employ Kawhi Leonard.

I should note that the Cavs’ $80 million man has not played yet. If I were the Cavs I would have told Tristan Thompson to kick rocks.

Yeah he is, but Della is getting layups against our reserves too.
That last LeBron coast to coast… do they (bench players) NOT know he can do that?

Grant may not hit another 3pter for the rest of his career. Love his ability to drive though, would be awesome if he could at least become a semi-decent jumpshooter.

I think its safe to say now that the Knicks bench is no longer better than the starters.

In case you’re wondering, this is shaping up to be a very good, superstar-level game from Carmelo. This is what it looks like.

I should note that the Cavs’ $80 million man has not played yet. If I were the Cavs I would have told Tristan Thompson to kick rocks.

Well, considering that they couldn’t sign anyone else with that money, I’d say it was a pretty smart move. Would I pay him $80M to be on the Knicks right now? Hell no.

@67 thanks prof, this is our first year watching him.

Sure feels that way when people are championing him for scoring 25 points on 27 shot attempts…

You alright Jowles? In all seriousness though. I know when Melo plays in the Olympics with teammates he trusts in a system he is a better player. Obviously he’s not going to consistently put up 40 in the NBA compared to Olympics, but I think he can do well in system basketball.

Now THAT was nice!!!

They’re playing the paint tough on D. The Oak Man would be proud.

Melo in the Olympics roasted a couple teams fielding sub division 1 talent. That’s it. There is no magic better Melo when he’s playing with team USA against good international teams.

There is no scarier site in the NBA for an opposing player than LeBron coming at you with a full head of steam.

What a half by Melo! KP is boarding and hoarding too! Basketball the way it ought to be!

This team can run with anyone (except maybe golden state). It’s just the part about finishing the game.

I’m out with my wife, but I checked my phone to see if someone had put up a thread and when I saw no one had but the Knicks were up, I figure, “No way am I jinxing this by putting up a game thread now.” But had I put up a game thread, I would have noted that the fun thing about this team is that they seem like they can be in the game against anyone, which is great.

I hate to say this but..I do not like the fact that Oaq’s and Williams’ minutes have gone down in favor of Amundson. Also I think Fish erred when Afflalo came back by takin Vuj completely out of the rotation. I’m not sayin he should get 12-15 mpg..but he does help the offense move so maybe he should still get at least 5 mpg or so- I can only take so many awkward one on one shots by Oaq and Thomas.

I could put one up but can’t mess with Karma…

Lebron is way too skinny. Looks like a different person. Stats pretty similar.

And JR with the mustache. Somehow my wife still likes him.

They never learn their lesson….

Amundson single-handedly keeping the Knicks in the lead!! Don’t know how much longer that can last though.

I do like Lou’s energy, but I think we could do with a little less of him on the court overall.

It’s looking more and more like the clock struck midnight on our 2nd unit Cinderellas.

Lou couldn’t score in a brothel, but he’s a very nice player otherwise. I thought we should have cut him immediately, but I’m glad I was wrong about that

That floater Gallo hit to end the quarter, would be awesome if both he and Grant can add that shot to their arsenal.

Grant is such a poor shooter. Defenders just back off his cross over and give him a wide berth daring him to put the ball up. He’s scared to do it.

Hopefully that sequence doesn’t come back to cost the Knicks in the end. Multiple shot attempts to increase an 8pt lead instead led to a LeBron And1 fastbreak layup.

When Lebron is coming at you one on one with a head of steam you should ask yourself “Is my name Kawhi Leonard”, and if the answer is no you should get out of the way and let him dunk

Fisher buries KP early for what I have no idea. But you know, he probably took a shot Fish didn’t like and now he’s on the bench.

Porzingis owns Lebron’s soul. Bron doesn’t want to shoot with those arms in his face.

Afflalo’s wide open 3 miss lead to an easy Mozgov layup. Knicks have had numerous chances this quarter to give themselves a decent lead but can’t buy a basket right now.

I’m thinking whenever LeBron steams twds the basket, the Knicks should just wrap him up. He’s too strong to hack/foul near the rim; it doesn’t disrupt him finishing.

Knicks don’t deserve to win this game with this pathetic offensive display in the 4th quarter.

Brief shout out to my man LG for successfully guarding Kevin Love in the post on consecutive possessions

Man, NBA refs have to be the most disgraceful lot of game officials in any major sport.
Its obscene how erratic their standards are.

Krispy got the “Umm no rook we aint giving you that call” treatment from the refs.

I’m not one to complain about the refs, but I can see how one could this game.

Crap. Another bad 4th quarter. Yeah, the usual odd NBA reffing, but just lousy offensive execution.

Being up 6 points on LeBron entering the 4th quarter is not enough.

The officials make sure it gets cut into half. So its really 3 points.

Don’t blame the refs, this is some middle-school level pathetic Knicks offense this entire 4th quarter.

Fisher throwing the game again not telling to team to go 2 for 1 and taking out Porzingis. Also the Knicks just play hero ball at the end of games and it’s disgusting to watch

I think this is a season where all losses will be learning lessons. LeBron stepped up his D on Melo – Knicks need to learn to run their O when Melo gets bottled up late.

Tough, tough shots by Mo and LeBron.

BTW, the Derrick Williams show has to stop.

He gets a free pass from Fisher because he’s a vet but he’s been pure ass.

Knicks can acquire as many good players as they possibly can but this franchise hasn’t had a good head coach since Dec 8th, 2001 and that in the end will be their biggest problem.

I don’t know how Fisher got it in his pea brain that Lance Thomas is a better defender than KP. But here we are.

So earlier today people were saying Fish is an idiot for not playing Derrick Williams and tonight he’s an idiot for playing Derrick Williams

Refs had nothing to do with this one. We just wung it on offense the whole 4th. Plus the rotations that fish got off the psychic hotline.

God awful pass to KP.

Reminds me of how pissed I am that this team doesn’t run more alley oop plays with him.

Derrick Williams had nothing to do with the awful offense in the late 4th quarter.

Does it matter when the offense is bad? Points count just as much in the other quarters and he’s been a liability whenever he’s out there.

Well, if Fisher is going to learn from his mistakes, he’ll at least stop having Thomas making inbounds passes late in game. Oh, and stop the crappy hero ball, please.

Certainly still a very fun team to watch and root for…

Admunson just standing there while Thompson swooped in to grab the rebound when it was a two point game was killer. KP or at least Lopez should have been in there. If they both were that is an offensive rebound rather than FT for Cleveland.

With the NY Giants and the Knicks I’ve had enough of horrible 4th quarters. As much fun as both teams are to watch in the first 3 quarters it all gets washed away with crappy 4th quarters.

Oh well on to Sunday, hopefully the Knicks catch a break and Anthony Davis misses the game.

Good effort, fun game is the motto for the 2015-2016 Knicks apparently.

I watched maybe 8 entertaining Knicks games last season, so I’m okay with that

“The Melord giveth and The Melord taketh away”.

The offense goes to shit with everyone trying to force the ball to our franchise subparstar.

Watching Fisher blow games is becoming more frustrating than watching Terry Collins do it.

Ugh.

Depending on how you feel about that Hornets’ game, this to me is the first real game they let slip through their hands.
That said, I believe there are opportunities later in the season (hopefully) where some guys can be put in these 4th quarter situations. I think Grant’s ability to penetrate will help upset defenses once he has more knowledge on when to shoot/pass/keep dribbling-probing. KP’s size can allow him to shoot over most defenders once he learns to be more decisive: he had some space a couple of times to put up clean looks.

That 2nd Afflalo post-up on Della – he was a few steps a bit far out from the 1st post-up.

That’s one of the biggest positives of being a Yankees fan, even in the post-Mo era the Yankees hardly ever blow leads late in games.

You would think that after a first half in which Melo dominated by taking (mostly) good shots, he’d want to continue to do so. But nope, Meloball all day every day and thus he finishes with a pretty pedestrian shooting line and the Knicks lose. It is truly frustrating because he’d be a much better player if he did dumb shit, like, half as often.

KP’s size can allow him to shoot over most defenders once he learns to be more decisive: he had some space a couple of times to put up clean looks.

The problem for KP is that if he misses he won’t see the ball for minutes at a time. Meanwhile, Derrick Williams can chuck up stupid, off balance shot after stupid, reckless off balance shot and have the confidence to suck day in and day out.

Melo barely shot the ball in the 3rd quarter and most of his 4th quarter shots were possessions when he got the ball with a few seconds left and he had to fling up some crazy shit to beat the shot-clock. He took less shots in the 2nd half than he did in the 1st half.

It also didnt help that Mo freaking Williams was by far the best guard on the court tonight.

I think it’s time to acknowledge that Derrick Williams isn’t going to be the first successful high draft pick reclamation project that actually pays dividends. He’s a 15 minute guy at best, even less on nights he’s suckin.

So for all those who were worried we’d have to re-sign him for big bucks, don’t.

Derrick Williams was somewhat inefficient tonight, but he had 7 rebounds in 16 minutes. If y’all can remember way back to last game you may recall he had two bad TOs and got benched for the rest of the night after playing 4 fucking minutes. If you think that Derrick Williams lost tonight’s game or Fish is afraid to bench him you aren’t dealing with reality.

The offense goes to shit with everyone trying to force the ball to our franchise subparstar.

I would say the opposite is true. When Anthony gets hot, Fisher needs to make sure he doesn’t get cold by giving him shorter breathers.

I’m really not sure what game some of you guys were watching but I didn’t see anything remotely resembling “hero-ball” at the end. In the last minute, they went to Afflallo twice and he got good looks in the post and then Fisher drew up a beautiful inbounds play for Porzingis that just missed.
They lost a close game to one of
the best teams in the league. I’m not sure why people are mad at Fisher. By the way, Kevin Love is the most overrated player in the league — and he just seems like a very unlikable guy.

Couple of things: The Knicks spent 19m this off-season on Rolo, O’Q, and Seraphin, and Sweet Lou Amundson is closing games now? Nothing against Lou- he was the best of the bunch tonight but still… And interesting to see the Knicks switching on most picks in the fourth- the mismatches didn’t really hurt them but it’d be nice if the Knicks had guards that could actually get over screens.

I’ve been looking at the box score, the whole game comes down to Mosgov outscoring Lopez.

If you think that Derrick Williams lost tonight’s game or Fish is afraid to bench him you aren’t dealing with reality.

I never said Williams lost tonight’s game, I’m just saying that after 10 games it’s pretty obvious that he’s pretty limited as to what he can bring to the 2nd unit. He wasn’t the reason we lost, we couldn’t stop Mo Williams and our offense went to shit in the 4th quarter.

Oh, and if the Cavs had hit their foul shots the game would have been over way earlier.

@196 – Fisher dos that and we’re looking at 40+ minute-night for Melo. Aren’t most of us in favor of that not happening this season? And that doesn’t account for the second half or 4th Q, although I have a funny feeling a certain all-world athlete and player with a receding hairline might have had something to do with why was off-beat in that 4th.

@197 Co-sign. In a way, this was another example of the Knicks needing:
A. Improved guard play in the clutch and against better defenses.
B. A legit secondary scorer (eventually Afflalo, hopefully KP down the road).
C. To be able to go inside-out via guard penetration or post threat late-game.

I thought KP, save for a couple of late rotations in the paint, was very effective on D tonight. And how about that foul rate dropping? And I swore I saw Grant try a floater tonight.

@184 you didn’t even watch the second half.

The offense was free flowing in the first half but it grinded to a halt in the second thanks to a joint effort by the Knicks offense and the Cavs defense.

That dubious travel call on Melo reversed an and one bucket and a foul on Lebrun James. Aflalo got the matchup he wanted two times in a row against delly and missed the second time.

In 10 games we have accomplished at least one thing, a clear separation from the 2014-15 season. This team does not resemble that team at all, thank god!!

dubious travel call on Melo

Maybe you think that the travel shouldn’t have been called because he’s Melo or something, but it was pretty clear that he changed pivot feet before shooting.

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