Would You Trade Mitchell Robinson for Golden State’s #2 Pick and Minnesota’s Top 3-Protected 2021 Pick?

Donnie Walsh asked and I thought we could add this one to Knickerblogger’s new “All Poll” centric content, even though Golden State would never do this trade.

Would You Trade Mitchell Robinson for Golden State's #2 Pick and Minnesota's Top 3-Protected 2021 Pick?

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141 thoughts to “Would You Trade Mitchell Robinson for Golden State’s #2 Pick and Minnesota’s Top 3-Protected 2021 Pick?”

  1. I love Mitch, but I’d take this deal in a second. Mitch still has major flaws in his game and Wiseman is right there to duplicate his skillset.

    You basically get a free 1st round pick out of it in a draft that’s going to be deep.

  2. I said no because the Minnesota pick could be mediocre if they are decent or if they are bad not even transfer. Add that to a top of this draft that is pretty underwhelming and I’ll take the bird in the hand.

  3. I’m not voting because it’s such a far-fetched hypothetical. I am looking very forward to seeing what Thibs can do with Mitch and Frank, and don’t want to even consider that they won’t be here.

    Back to Frank, there seems to be two main sticking points:

    1) Is he still young enough to become a solid 20-30 mpg rotation despite 3800 minutes of bad play in the NBA? In other words, to what degree should his NBA minutes be discounted because he entered the draft two years too early?

    2) What skills does he need to improve to cement a future as a solid 20-30mpg rotation player? Is it just 3pt shooting or is that not enough?

    I don’t think anyone has suggested that he should be extended based on what we know for sure at this point. I also think everyone is of the mind that if he’s on the roster in 2020-21, he should play ample minutes and given every opportunity. We also agree that he was a bad pick and will have grossly underperformed his rookie salary.

    Where we differ is largely about what we should consider a fair trade for him. I’m of the mind that Frank as is shouldn’t be traded for anything less than something like a top-30 pick in this draft based on his age and potential, mainly because his salary is irrelevant and the odds of him improving his 3pt shot at his age are significantly better than a second rounder becoming a rotation player. And also, he’s played mostly for bad coaches and and I’d like to see what Thibs can do with him.

  4. Z-Man: I will stop arguing about Frank because everyone’s positions are so well-established.

    Also Z-Man: [posts a half-dozen more times about Frank, including in the brand-new thread]

    As a fellow Frank-o-phile, I get it. But it’s nonetheless funny.

  5. And I’d do the Mitch deal for the same reason Golden State wouldn’t: it’s just too much value for a guy who remains fairly raw and may have limited utility on a good team if he never learns to shoot from outside in games. And whose absurdly cheap team control is nearing its end.

  6. Brian, I get your message loud and clear! I’ve been asking for the last 5 years for more polls after the core group of writers left this site. You’re fond of saying that nobody who says he’ll never post again on KB has ever kept that promise. Sorry but you will have to retire that. Bye.

  7. From Macri’s newsletter today:

    I heard from a league source that Patrick Williams, the FSU freshman who already appeared to be the draft’s late riser, may be climbing even further than people expect. There’s a strong chance he’s gone before the Knicks select at 8.

  8. Alan:
    Z-Man: I will stop arguing about Frank because everyone’s positions are so well-established.

    Also Z-Man: [posts a half-dozen more times about Frank, including in the brand-new thread]

    As a fellow Frank-o-phile, I get it. But it’s nonetheless funny.

    lol I know. However, it seemed that when I tried to shift the discussion to a more general issue (how to properly value defense and intangibles that might or might not be connected to positive on/off numbers) others brought it back to Frank so I just went with the flow. In this thread (and you seem to agree that it’s a ridiculous proposition) I just summarized what we are actually arguing about….and not arguing about (lots of straw men have been kicked about in the Frank discussions). Do you agree with the summary of the sticking points I posted above?

  9. Do you agree with the summary of the sticking points I posted above?

    Numbers have never been my strong suit — which I admit makes it odd that this is the Knicks blog I spend most of my time on, rather than something like P&T. Here are The Frank Factors, as I see them:

    * He can be genuinely great as a one-on-one defender. The steals numbers are not there, but I do trust the eye test in this case, and you can see how disruptive he is to opposing PGs or wings when he’s at his best.

    * BUT… those “Holy shit, did you see how Frank smothered Superstar PG X?” moments don’t necessarily come every game, or even every other game. If Thibs can turn him into a consistent world-wrecker on that side of the ball, night in and night out, that changes the equation a bit.

    * BUT… he also needs to be way more aggressive on offense than he’s been, whether he’s playing PG or wing. We know that he can be more aggressive, as we saw in international play last summer, and as we’ve seen on rare and usually brief occasions throughout his NBA career. If he just doesn’t do anything on offense, it doesn’t matter how great he is on the other end.

    * BUT… I do believe with him it’s much more about mindset than skill. When he’s healthy, his shot looks pretty good. When he’s trying, he gets to the basket relatively well, albeit not in a class with even somebody like DSJ. (More like Felton in his first Knicks stint.) So I think if Thibs and his developmental coaches can get him to play with more aggression offense, too, he becomes a genuinely useful player, even without the steals or the rebounds.

    * BUT… we’ve also been talking about his confidence for years now, and it seems like the margin between him being a rotation player and unplayable is still razor-thin. A whole lot of things have to break right for the platonic ideal of Frank to be here to stay. But I also irrationally love the platonic ideal of Frank, so… Go Frank?

  10. Also, re: that earlier Patrick Williams report, that is good news if true. Not only does it increase the odds of Hayes or someone else we might like dropping to 8, but I simply want no part of Kevin Knox 2.0: This Time, He’s Actually Good! Even if Williams somehow deserves the hype, no thank you.

  11. What skills does he need to improve to cement a future as a solid 20-30mpg rotation player? Is it just 3pt shooting or is that not enough?

    If Frank shot 40% from 3 this past season (in which he hit 45% of his his shots from 16-3PT, which accounted for 19% of his total shots and is something that is not happening again, sorry), his overall TS% would’ve been .543. He would’ve scored 11.8 PTS/36.

    So you have a solidly below average TS% with well-below league average scoring volume regardless of whether he’s a point guard or a shooting guard.

    In this scenario in which we’ve arbitrarily gifted Frank a great 3PT% , I honestly don’t see much of a role for him on good team. The spacing benefits he’d provide would be pretty limited by his unremarkable 3PA volume. I think he is a very good defender, but not so much so that he’s worth giving up all kinds of offensive advantages to play. I mean it’s not like the Knicks have been a good defensive team with him on the floor. This is not Ben Wallace, or even Mitchell Robinson.

  12. * BUT… he also needs to be way more aggressive on offense than he’s been, whether he’s playing PG or wing. We know that he can be more aggressive, as we saw in international play last summer, and as we’ve seen on rare and usually brief occasions throughout his NBA career. If he just doesn’t do anything on offense, it doesn’t matter how great he is on the other end.

    This seems to be a major divide between the Frankophiles and the skeptics. I actually don’t blame Frank for not being more aggressive, because I think he’s smart enough to recognize he simply doesn’t have the functional athletic chops to be a consistent driving threat. I don’t get the sense that it’s a confidence problem at all.

    In other words he’s not passing up opportunities that exist, he’s passing up bad, probably embarrassing shots that he can’t make. Normally that’s a good thing, but in this case the player also can’t make easy shots.

  13. I actually don’t blame Frank for not being more aggressive, because I think he’s smart enough to recognize he simply doesn’t have the functional athletic chops to be a consistent driving threat. I don’t get the sense that it’s a confidence problem at all.

    You may be right, but I’ve seen him get to the rack with relative ease in both NBA and international play. It may be that the defense simply was giving him holes that he doesn’t usually see — or can’t usually make it through — but I think he has more offensive skill than he usually shows. Not a lot, by any means, which is why the margin for whether he’s playable or not is so damn thin. But they exist. On the exasperatingly rare occasions when he got to play with KP, for instance, I seem to recall them playing pretty well as pick-and-roll partners.

  14. What happens if the Timberwolves pick is in the top 3 next year? Do we get it in 2022 with the same protections? Or just lose the pick altogether?

    If we have four picks in the high lottery over the next two years, i don’t know, that seems like the reset I have been wanting for 20 years.

    But I love Mitch. He is my avatar. This is a tough one.

  15. My vote is to make the trade, largely because Mitch could walk away from the Knicks as an UFA. He left Western Kentucky, pulled out of the combine, changed agents a few times, and didn’t attend the voluntary workouts. It’s a bit troubling, although it could be nothing.

    In addition, you can get two players on rookie contracts, while the Knicks really have to extend Mitch at some point with a contract that is agreeable to Klutch Sports. If Mitch wants out of NY, the Knicks really have little leverage at this point as he was signed to a MLE.

  16. ***What happens if the Timberwolves pick is in the top 3 next year? Do we get it in 2022 with the same protections? Or just lose the pick altogether?***

    It’s unprotected in 2022.

    I agree GS wouldn’t do this trade, though it would be interesting to see what Mitch would do on that team next year.

    What player will they likely package those picks for (they are looking to package those pick for a win-now player, right?)

    [edit: they also have a $17,000,000 trade exception. Can that be packaged/used in conjunction with these picks? If so, I guess salary isn’t that important to even consider, making Robinson’s cheapness kind of moot, huh?]

  17. thenoblefacehumper: (in which he hit 45% of his his shots from 16-3PT, which accounted for 19% of his total shots and is something that is not happening again, sorry)

    I don’t get why you keep saying this. 45% is not a freaky number from that range. He’s likely to be close to an 80% FT shooter, so why is it such a stretch to say that a 21yo’s 16-23 foot shooting won’t hover in the mid-40’s? Why is it unreasonable to say that if he continues to hit that shot that defenses won’t sag off of him or go under screens and that might help him with getting to the rim?

  18. Donnie Walsh: I agree GS wouldn’t do this trade, though it would be interesting to see what Mitch would do on that team next year.

    I don’t think Mitch is all that far removed from where JaVale McGee was a couple of years ago. He’d probably have that kind of effect unless he continues to improve.

  19. I still feel like the undersold aspect of the Frank discussion is what exactly he is on defense. A lot of his bigger fans have already anointed him as elite on that end, and you definitely see flashes of it. But you certainly won’t find much evidence of a consistent impact in the numbers. And I think his size is a significant question mark going forward also – anointing him as a “3 and D wing” is a little generous on the D portion (leaving aside the offense) for a guy who we haven’t really seen even try to check many guys with much size or bulk. If you have a “wing stopper” who’s just flatly too small to guard the most elite wing creators in the league (your Lebron, Kawhi, Giannis tier) then I question whether what you have is really a wing. So I think how his body evolves over the next couple years is very important for him and I’m intrigued to see how he comes back after almost a year off to have spent in the gym. An off guard who’s a defensive specialist but only really on guards is a pretty niche player – maybe Avery Bradley is the comp.

  20. He and Tony Allen are the same height. How about Tony Allen without the steals?

    I guess I’d do that deal, mostly because I don’t trust the Knicks to do the right thing with Mitch anyway.

  21. Doesn’t Frank have a much longer wingspan than Tony Allen?

    When I watch Frank on defense, I just see a kid who is super fundamentally sound on that end. He can almost always stay in front of his man. He’s good at funneling players to the sidelines or corners. He often forces the player he is guarding if he has the ball to give up the ball. His wingspan will allow him to guard his man while also cutting off a passing lane or almost help defending a second player. I’ve seen possessions where the shot clock has run out because of his defense or there is a double dribble or someone ends up taking a really bad shot at the end of the shot clock because of his defense.

    Its all eye test stuff but the last few years when I watch Knicks games and Frank is in, I will just focus on him on defense and this is what I see all of the time. So even though his steal rate isn’t high, I can see how he causes turnovers and bad shots and generally frustrates the guy he is defending and often times gets him to get the ball out of his hands.

  22. I don’t get why you keep saying this. 45% is not a freaky number from that range.

    Bruh.

    First of all, in his first two seasons he hit those shots at 32% and 29% respectively. What, did he spend all offseason focusing on the worst shot in the NBA and exactly nothing else?

    Second of all LaMarcus Aldridge has pretty much built his NBA career on prowess from that range. He has never shot 45% from it, his career figure is 42%.

    It’s legitimately hard to find anyone who has shot 45%+ from that range, there’s a reason it’s the word shot in the NBA! Upon cursory search I’ve only been able to find Dirk, Chris Paul, and Steph Curry. I’ll gift you Kevin Durant and Damian Lillard at 44%. I’m sure there are some others, but does this look like a group that our Frankie is going to belong to over a larger sample size?

    When I say I honestly didn’t see any underlying improvement from Frank this is what I’m talking about. His improved TS% and 2PT% were largely a mirage. He actually shot below his rookie year figure at the rim, and a career worst from 10-16. If you don’t buy that he suddenly became Chris Paul from 16-3PT, all of the sudden year 3 looks a lot like years 1 and 2. Of course, even if you do buy it he was not an NBA rotation player in year 3.

  23. I don’t see Minny making the playoffs in the West but I don’t see them being one of the worst teams either, so I’d probably take that deal. The potential for 3 lottery picks in next year’s draft is too tempting to pass up and we are about to be at the end of Mitch’s rookie deal.

  24. thenoblefacehumper: First of all, in his first two seasons he hit those shots at 32% and 29% respectively. What, did he spend all offseason focusing on the worst shot in the NBA and exactly nothing else?

    Second of all LaMarcus Aldridge has pretty much built his NBA career on prowess from that range. He has never shot 45% from it, his career figure is 42%.

    It’s legitimately hard to find anyone who has shot 45% from that range, there’s a reason it’s the word shot in the NBA! Upon cursory search I’ve only been able to find Dirk, Chris Paul, and Steph Curry. I’ll gift you Kevin Durant and Damian Lillard at 44%. I’m sure there are some others, but does this look like a group that our Frankie is going to belong to over a larger sample size?

    That’s weird that you couldn’t find anyone other than those guys because league average from that range is 40.4% and 4 teams (Nuggets, Thunder, Bucks, Blazers) shot 44.6% or higher as a team from that range.

    It also accounted for 19% of Frank’s total shooting, So if he regresses to league average, it wouldn’t have much of an effect on his overall TS%. Certainly not nearly as much as if his 3pt% goes up to 35-37%. Your entire assertion that his TS% is being artificially propped up by flukey accuracy on long 2’s is not holding water. I’m not going to argue that his shooting% drop from 10-16 feet artificially depressed his TS%. The bottom line is that his TS% will depend on his efficiency at the rim and from 3. The mid-range stuff is just noise…he’s likely to be league average from there going forward.

  25. That’s weird that you couldn’t find anyone other than those guys because league average from that range is 40.4% and 4 teams (Nuggets, Thunder, Bucks, Blazers) shot 44.6% or higher as a team from that range.

    It’s not weird that I couldn’t find anyone other than those guys because among players who took as many FGAs from that range as Frank, only 27 averaged his FG% or higher. Frank ranks above Kawhi Leonard, Devin Booker, Lou Williams, and Paul George.

    I suppose you’re free to believe Frank is Chris Paul now after being bad from that range in years 1-2 and not making meaningful shooting improvements in other areas. That’s not stock I’m buying.

    So if he regresses to league average, it wouldn’t have much of an effect on his overall TS%.

    If you regress it to his career average (including the outlier year) of .353, his TS% becomes .478. An improvement over years 1-2 (a blindfolded drunk might be able to improve on that), but a significant drop off from his (still bad) .497 figure that would tank the box score aggregators you keep citing.

  26. With the acknowledgment that this is hypocritical of me to suggest, I don’t see much of a point to continuing to talk about Frank Ntilikina unless we’re talking about concrete contract and/or trade proposals. The stakes of the debate are very low. There are probably over 100 things that will be more determinative of our future than whether Frank Ntilikina is a non-NBA player or decent 9th man. Langston Galloway has scratched out a pretty decent career and people don’t waste time decrying our decision to jettison him because they correctly realize it just ain’t the difference maker.

    I will try this again: what would everyone offer Christian Wood?

  27. thenoblefacehumper: If you regress it to his career average

    And here we are, back where we started. You insist that his age 19-21yo seasons are an already-defined “career” that will largely be mirrored going forward, and I say that his entire NBA data set occurred before most NBA players ever played a minute in the NBA and therefore should be viewed as a baseline, not an ultimate outcome. You think the cake is pretty much already baked, I think he’s far from a finished product. We’ll see.

  28. This would be incredibly good news if our FO knew what it was doing. They did bring on a crack capologist…

    I preface the following by noting that Macri is both new to the concept of being a beat reporter of sorts, and also as glass half-full a Knicks fan as you will possibly find, but everything he has written, tweeted, etc, over the past few weeks says he’s hearing that while Rose would ideally like to make the team better this year, his eyes are primarily on the long-term, with the 2021 draft and free agency period in particular as much bigger prizes than anything they can do for this season. If he’s right, then I have to believe we’ll be doing some trading of cap space for 2021 picks and other assets between now and whenever the season starts.

    I would very much like him to be right.

  29. That’s great that Leon Rose is looking to 21-22.

    The top prospect in 22 appears to be named Chet though.

  30. >>> Also, re: that earlier Patrick Williams report, that is good news if true. Not only does it increase the odds of Hayes or someone else we might like dropping to 8, but I simply want no part of Kevin Knox 2.0: This Time, He’s Actually Good! Even if Williams somehow deserves the hype, no thank you. <<<

    The fact that he's rising almost dispels the idea that he's knox 2.0. Knox never rose. He was either slotted to the Knicks or he was out of the lottery. Also going against the Knox 2.0 narrative is the fact that he is constantly slotted to San Antonio (as if they'd ever take Knox).

    The biggest issue with him seems to be he didn't start at Florida State. But the numbers, the film, and the athletic profile look good. Really good. He's increasingly becoming one of my favorite prospects.

  31. i returned to rubberneck the hobbled and feckless rejoinders to my morning skewering but apparently i forgot to hit post. lucky bastards

  32. Also, re: that earlier Patrick Williams report, that is good news if true. Not only does it increase the odds of Hayes or someone else we might like dropping to 8, but I simply want no part of Kevin Knox 2.0: This Time, He’s Actually Good! Even if Williams somehow deserves the hype, no thank you.

    600 minutes of good but not spectacular college ball is a big no from me dog

  33. My 2 cents on Frank’s defense is that he’s phenomenal when healthy but nothing to write home about when his groin issues flare up. Based on how often he has groin issues, I’m not optimistic.

  34. thenoblefacehumper: There are probably over 100 things that will be more determinative of our future than whether Frank Ntilikina is a non-NBA player or decent 9th man.

    That’s your own entrenched range of possible outcomes. You put a hard ceiling on him as a “fringe rotation player.” I (and many others here) don’t. My ceiling is “20-30mph player on a contender” which raises the stakes significantly and makes it worth discussing. We’re not talking about Damyean Dotson or Iso Zo here. You keep bringing up players like Galloway, Roberson, and Dunn who had not yet played a single NBA minute when they were Frank’s age. The NBA is loaded with players who made tons of improvement between ages 22-25, and there are also loads of guys who did not and remained on the fringes. I agree that the mean outcome is somewhere below a starter on a good team, but I think it’s probably better than Langston Galloway.

  35. Yeah, I wouldn’t blame a team for taking the guy with the best advanced stats over an “upside” guy in this draft with little else to go by, especially in the lottery. That means Okongwu, Deni, and Killian, plus maybe the slightly older Vassell, Jalen Smith, and Haliburton.

    Okongwu is probably the safest pick in the whole draft.

  36. No one’s going to be mad about an Okongwu/Mitch frontcourt for the next four years.

    The mean outcome for Frank is out of the NBA as it is with most players.

    No, but, you see, he’s a Knick, which means he has more upside than other teams’ players. The stats lie about our players. BPM can’t tell us about upside. Only Clarence Gaines can do that.

  37. I agree that the mean outcome is somewhere below a starter on a good team, but I think it’s probably better than Langston

    The mean outcome is better than Galloway’s 14 PTS/36, .400 3PT%, .584 TS%, and plus defense?! Strat give Z-Man his login info back.

    Guys. It is no guarantee that this guy is in the NBA in 2021-2022.

  38. The mean outcome for Frank is out of the NBA as it is with most players.

    jiminy early bird…i guess we’re really all on borrowed time :)

    i returned to rubberneck the hobbled and feckless rejoinders to my morning skewering but apparently i forgot to hit post. lucky bastards

    yes, and the world’s smartest man just jumped out of the plane with my backpack…

  39. Okongwu is definitely the safest pick. I’m like 90% sure that guy is going to make the fanbase of his team very happy. If he’s on the board at #8 my reaction will probably be “holy shit fit with Mitch be damned take him and celebrate.”

    The only question is the positional scarcity issue. Okongwu will be a good NBA player, but will he be 150%-200% better than, say, Richaun Holmes (e.g. DeAndre Ayton, Clint Capela), or just completely out of the league of that kind of player (e.g. KAT, Adebayo, AD)?

    The standard for bigs is just astronomically high these days, so the upside question is much more relevant when drafting them than it is for wings/guards. It’s legitimately hard to get a league average wing/guard. League average or better bigs grow on trees.

  40. My ceiling is “20-30mph player on a contender” which raises the stakes significantly and makes it worth discussing.

    I just don’t get what we’re discussing, though. In a year we have to decide exactly how many finite resources we’re willing to spend on the hope that Frank Ntilikina unlocks his latent powers. My opinion is we should spend very few because I’m not much of a believer in the latent powers. Where does Team Frank stand?

  41. I don’t think Patrick Williams is a bad prospect but my god he would be an awful choice at #8. I hope the hype is either fake, or so real he’s gone before we pick.

  42. Regardless of how you feel about Frank’s future potential, I don’t think the path with Frank is that complicated.

    I think most here would greenlight trading Frank for a first-round pick (1-30) or as a throw-in in a trade that makes us legitimately better. I wouldn’t trade him for a 2nd rounder because you can buy 2nd rounders, and giving him more minutes over another season (when we should want to lose anyway) is preferable.

    Then, in 2021, put a hard cap at 5 mil for his services (which could go up or down depending on how his 2021 season went). If we’re outbid by another team, then (gasp!) let him walk. Letting a guy walk that you don’t feel has a future with the team is reward (cap space) enough.

    Maybe if he’s awful by the next deadline, sure, shop him for a 2nd rounder if you must, or again, as a throw-in.

    Until then, just sit back and enjoy his preeminent Frankness.

  43. The standard for bigs is just astronomically high these days, so the upside question is much more relevant when drafting them than it is for wings/guards. It’s legitimately hard to get a league average wing/guard. League average or better bigs grow on trees.

    This is also why I remain an agnostic about Mitch being a foundational player for us, even though he’s very obviously the best player on the current roster. All things being equal in the draft, I’d rather take a wing or a point guard. But if he’s just so much better than any of the smaller prospects, then you take him and start exploring Mitch’s trade value, I guess?

  44. It’s easy to say “Mitch is just a rim running big” but in a competent offense it’s easy to imagine him being the best rim running big in the NBA. That’s almost certainly less value than a really good wing, but there aren’t any obvious elite wing players in this draft. Minny might suck again next year, but the protections make that pick a lot less valuable. How deep is next year’s draft supposed to be in wing players? I’m not sure what the answer to that hypothetical trade is.

  45. Frank is kind of like a one read quarterback on both ends. It seems to me he tries to do exactly what he’s “supposed” to do and never really reads what’s happening on the floor. Defensively he’s good at anticipating and jumping screens when on the ball and that’s it. He never seems a step ahead of the offense so he’s great (when healthy) on the ball but doesn’t add much value off of it. Some of that is youth (and probably timidity too) but I’m not sure he’s ever going to be game-changing on that end beyond shutting down one specific player. Still valuable but unless he really ups his activity level off of the ball I’m not sure he’s never going to an all-NBA level defender.

    On offense, in three years I can probably count the passes he made that surprised me on my hands. Again, youth and timidity but he’s shown no ability to recognize, let alone react to any mistakes the defense might make. As for his shooting- In his entire NBA career he’s yet to make a three pointer with anyone closer than four feet from him -that seems crazy but that’s what NBA.com says. If he starts making threes on a regular basis teams are going to actually guard him out there and what then? Ray Allen was a 40% 3 point shooter for his career, Reggie Miller a smidge below that. The idea that Frank is going to go from way below average to elite seems a little far-fetched. That said, if he shoots well enough to make people guard him out there that’s probably enough to keep him in the NBA given his very good man defense.

  46. thenoblefacehumper: The mean outcome is better than Galloway’s 14 PTS/36, .400 3PT%, .584 TS%, and plus defense?!

    Wait, the guy who just said that I only focused on Dunn’s last year now uses Galloway’s last year to define him?! His career TS% is .510 including last year’s .584, but of course, that’s not an outlier like Franks 45% from 2.

    Even in by far his best year last year at age 28, he put up a BPM of a whopping -0.8! Holy shit! Frank will never get to those lofty heights!!

    Of course, the irony is that Galloway is essentially who Frank would be right now at age 22 if he did nothing else but shoot 3’s better! except that Frank is already a much more effective passer. Did you even look at last year’s stats? Frank edged out Galloway in Reb%, Ast% (by far!) Stl%, Blk%, ast/tov ratio, FT%, FTr, and DBPM, and their USG% was nearly identical. There was literally nothing Galloway did better than Frank last year but make 3’s. And Frank has 7 years to catch up to Galloway’s shooting, and will almost certainly increase his advantages in every other category.

  47. I think all the Patrick Williams comments are justified, but I find it odd that he’s being singled out for things other prospects aren’t.

    Like, I get the 600 minutes of good but not great basketball idea. But then I look at Anthony edwards and see 1,000 minutes of the same good not great basketball, and he might go #1. (Their production is so similar that their BPM is an identical 5.5, but williams compiled it with 60% of the minutes it took Edwards).

    Guys like Ball and Wiseman don’t even have the paltry track record Williams has. They’re all hype, narrative, and measurables.

    Halliburton, Okongwu, and Toppin are the only two guys whose production really pops out at you.

    So I think the Williams dissent is fair, but I can apply the same logic up and down the line to most of the lottery. He seems to be suffering from not having name recognition all year, and that actually might make him undervalued.

  48. Mitch is an all-time great athlete. He does things that I’ve never seen before in 50 years of watching NBA basketball. He doesn’t have Wilt’s strength or finesse, but the height-length-vertical-fast-twitch combo is astounding. It doesn’t make him untouchable, but I’d really like to see what he can turn into as he matures and has a top-notch coach on his ass.

  49. Wait, the guy who just said that I only focused on Dunn’s last year now uses Galloway’s last year to define him?! His career TS% is .510 including last year’s .584, but of course, that’s not an outlier like Franks 45% from 2.

    I mean, if you’re talking about a player’s “outcome” are you not talking about their peak?

    Even in by far his best year last year at age 28, he put up a BPM of a whopping -0.8! Holy shit! Frank will never get to those lofty heights!!

    Correct

    Of course, the irony is that Galloway is essentially who Frank would be right now at age 22 if he did nothing else but shoot 3’s better!

    I literally did this exact calculation a few posts ago and you’re wrong

  50. I agree with that about Mitch. Just look at my avatar. The fun factor to keeping Skynet truly is off the charts, like his ability to block 3s.

    Having spent a little more time on it, the people I feel good about in the draft are Killian, Wiseman, and obviously Okongwo. Maybe you can’t win with great big men in the NBA but it does appear you can’t without them. Wiseman might have some Whitehead talented headcase potential but looking at the tape he seems like he could swallow DeAndre Ayton whole. Okongwo might end up Millsap without the steals but I just have a very hard time imagining not enjoying watching him play. The comparisons to Bam seem so easy but I swear I thought that the first time I watched him play. Killian, I like that he is tallish and has some solid production to his name, as opposed to Edwards and Ball. It’s incredibly hard to find good guards so I like to start with a little height and a little ts%.

    I can’t believe the draft isn’t happening till the 18th.

  51. What nicos said, except I think team defense is a lot more important than man defense in today’s NBA. Frank too often seems to be out there to play iso defense and when that’s not an option the rest of the team is playing 4 on 5 on both sides of the floor. I remember people bitching when Frank would get pulled after fighting through another screen as though the coaches couldn’t see his effort and effectiveness and why wouldn’t they use him correctly. I remember thinking that the switch had been called for and Frank fighting through the screen had been more disruptive to the defense than the offense. Sure, the Knicks defense sucks, but he still needs to play within it and he frequently looks like he doesn’t have the nous to do so.

  52. It’s understandable, in fact eminently sensible. to have some hesitancy about Mitch’s extension due to the positional scarcity issue. With the caveat that I adore the man and am probably completely incapable of giving an objective assessment, I truly think he can overcome the “rim runner” mold by:

    1) Being the best damn rim runner there is as DRed said
    2) Being an annual DPOY candidate

    There’s also the wild card of his I3PT% (Instagram Three Point Percentage) but I have my doubts about that ever becoming a thing.

  53. If Gallinari goes to the Lakers and wins a title next year, who had the batter career? Him or Melo?

    I will never be done regretting that trade like we will apparently never stop arguing about Frank.

    I will also go to my grave believing Renaldo Balkman should have had a real NBA career.

  54. Frank’s progress was the most exciting thing in the 2019-20 knicks season imo.
    Not exactly stellar but definitely promising.
    I remember Frank haters/nonbelievers before season’s start arguing about the date of the ticket to send him back to France….
    Kid is still here.
    And becomes part of the core.
    Enjoy the ride!

  55. Owen:
    If Gallinari goes to the Lakers and wins a title next year, who had the batter career? Him or Melo?

    I will never be done regretting that trade like we will apparently never stop arguing about Frank.

    I will also go to my grave believing Renaldo Balkman should have had a real NBA career.

    Melo just because of all the injuries Gallo’s had over his career. Gallo’s only played 70+ games twice in his career and hasn’t played that many games in 7 years. If he wins a title and plays several more years relatively healthy than it might be a debate.

  56. Ian Begley revisited the now-infamous Vassell shooting video with an FSU assistant coach:

    Here’s what happened: Young said Vassell was messing around at the end of a workout, shooting from about five steps behind the 3-point line. He was hitting most of his attempts, so someone at the workout started to film the shooting session.
    […]
    “Because he’s shooting from so far back, he’s sling-shotting it from over his head. Because it’s way deep. It was a (mess around) half-court shot,” Young says. “He always had kind of a high release but he hasn’t changed his shot. He doesn’t bring it back that far. He has not changed his shot at all.”

  57. It’s not really a “half-court shot” but it is deep – you can basically count the # of guys in the league who actually take 3s from that spot on the court on one hand. His form definitely has a little bit of the slingshot in it to begin with and I think that plus the long range plus the weird angle of that video made the release look a little more dramatic than it would otherwise. It’s a little scary to think that this is a draft where a totally out of context clip of two (2) workout jumpers might legitimately count as a significant piece of information but I think you’re probably best off just pretending not to have ever seen it at this point. I think he’d be a solid pick.

  58. There’s also the wild card of his I3PT% (Instagram Three Point Percentage)

    nice TNFH – this definitely need sot become a recorded stat :)

  59. I thought a long time and finally voted yes. I’m assuming Wiseman would be available and I’d rather have him than Mitch. But I think Golden State and most teams would rather have Wiseman than Mitch, so I don’t expect them to do the deal.

  60. This thread is gold. Treating an Instagram workout video of a questionable draft prospect like it’s the Zapruder film. Loving it.

    Offseason mode is a big part of what we do here. Usually from about mid-December through mid-October.

  61. Jowles, you never really mention Vassell as a prospect you’d pick and don’t seem to comment about him when others mention him. He seems like the kind of prospect you’d like. What are your thoughts on him?

  62. I genuinely have no idea about this draft. I’d like Haliburton because he appears to be a competent ball handler. I like Okongwu because he looks like Bam Adebayo. I have no idea if either of them will be any good.

    Tankathon has Xavier Tillman going to the Knicks at 38th. That would get me hard, for sure.

  63. Tyrese Halliburton has an excellent basketball reference page, a broken jumper by NBA standards, and bad ball handle for a lead guard. If he’s a successful NBA player I’d be shocked, and if he did it as a Knick I’d change my username here to Halliburton’s Jockstrap.

  64. Z-man:
    This would be incredibly good news if our FO knew what it was doing. They did bring on a crack capologist…

    Z-man, thanks for the pointer. Recent COVID news is so bad?I can see the cap going down. But the article assumes the luxury tax threshold will go down proportionally. I think the owners may negotiate something different with the players association. That is, they may agree on an artificially high luxury tax threshold relative to the cap for the season because their will be too much financial suffering in the middle of tough times otherwise. I don’t see the players objecting because raising the luxury tax threshold might encourage teams to be a bit more liberal with salaries.

  65. It’s funny that this poll is currently the exact inverse of the last poll. So, 64% of you wouldn’t trade RJ Barrett for the #1, but would trade Mitchell Robinson, the far superior player at this point, for the #2 and a future consideration that could be anywhere from 4-15 next year. Hmm…

  66. thenoblefacehumper: http://knickerblogger.net/would-you-trade-mitchell-robinson-for-golden-states-2-pick-and-minnesotas-top-3-protected-2021-pick/#comment-709071

    Langston Galloway is not mentioned in that post. ain fact, Langston Galloway’s stats refutes your logic. Any argument you can use to either boost Galloway’s value last year is equally valid for Frank, and any argument against it is also equally valid. For example:
    -Galloway shot a career high from 3 at 40%. Did he get better or is it an outlier compared to his prior career average of below 36%?
    -For his career, Galloway shot more than 17% of his shots from 2. Last year he shot a career low .068. Did he improve his shot selection? If yes, why can’t Frank? PS Galloway shot over 45% on long 2’s in both of the last 2 years…I thought only the Dirks of the world do that…
    -Galloway is now a 6’1″ combo guard with a 6’10” wingspan, really a shooting guard. Frank is a 6’5″ combo guard with a 7’1″ wingspan. Frank already has a higher Stl% and Blk% than Gallo. Who has more defensive potential as a multi-position defender?
    -Galloway got to the rim significantly less than Frank…11% (13.8% career) vs 20%. 17.7% career). Frank is .574 at the rim for his career. Galloway is a career .559 (huge up and down swings over his career.)

    There is absolutely no question that the only thing that Galloway did better than Frank is make 3’s. Frank is as good or better at pretty much everything else, and he still has another year before he is as old as Galloway was as a rookie. And you think don’t think he’s a reasonable median outcome for Frank? Please someone other than tnfh enlighten me as to what I am missing in the numbers.

  67. I should also mention that Frank’s career low Ast% is higher than Galloway’s career high.

    It’s not like Galloway is some stellar outcome for a #8 pick…a journeyman stopgap at a low mid-level salary. I’m not all that excited about it as a median outcome. I do think it is pretty accurate though.

  68. Donnie Walsh:
    It’s funny that this poll is currently the exact inverse of the last poll. So, 64% of you wouldn’t trade RJ Barrett for the #1, but would trade Mitchell Robinson, the far superior player at this point, for the #2 and a future consideration that could be anywhere from 4-15 next year. Hmm…

    If you switched RJ & Mitch, my votes wouldn’t change. Neither player is so essential to the franchise that I wouldn’t take the mulligan on them for an extra pick. But this year’s draft is so bad that I’d trade the #1 pick straight up for the #2 or #3 to avoid paying the extra money, maybe as low as 5.

  69. Knick fan not in NJ: Z-man,thanks for the pointer.Recent COVID news is so bad?I can see the cap going down. But the article assumes the luxury tax threshold will go down proportionally. I think the owners may negotiate something different with the players association.That is, they may agree on an artificially high luxury tax threshold relative to the cap for the season because their will be too much financial suffering in the middle of tough times otherwise. I don’t see the players objecting because raising the luxury tax threshold might encourage teams to be a bit more liberal with salaries.

    Now it sounds like they will keep this year’s number ($109mill). That’s not amazing for the Knicks, but there will still be teams looking to shed salary.

  70. I wonder if it would be possible to play basketball outside, in a virus friendly environment, to enable fans/concession sales to be in attendance…

  71. I don’t see the players objecting because raising the luxury tax threshold might encourage teams to be a bit more liberal with salaries.

    The whole point of the tax is to penalize spending, and players are never spenders. They’d prefer no luxury tax at all.

  72. geo:
    I wonder if it would be possible to play basketball outside, in a virus friendly environment, to enable fans/concession sales to be in attendance…

    Like the Rucker Tournament but with everyone properly socially distanced?

  73. The whole point of the tax is to penalize spending, and players are never spenders. They’d prefer no luxury tax at all.

    Sure, but he’s right that they’d just as soon keep it as high as possible.

  74. Owen: like his ability to block 3s.

    Yes, truly uncanny…as is his ability to switch on to a small and either defend the step-back or track him into the paint and block him at the rim.

  75. This one was close too. I voted no on this one because I think we haven’t scratched the surface on Mitch’s talent. I believe that he will take a huge step forward soon, developing range, staying out of foul trouble and becoming a dominant center. I want to sign two veteran backups for him but I want to see a year of him under Thibs.

  76. On Frank, his ceiling seems to be “guard off the bench” and nothing better. He’s never going to be CP3 or Westbrook or Steph Curry. He’s never scoring 40 pts in a game. He’s never carrying a team on his back. His floor is “out of the league” and the clock is ticking on that one right now. This is a make or break year for him hanging on in the NBA. You can say similar things about Dennis Smith Jr and Kevin Knox.

    Does anyone here think any of the 3 have a shot of ever making an all-star team?

  77. Offseason mode is a big part of what we do here.

    It’s the one time of the year we can have hope, Jowles. Don’t you want us to have hope?

  78. What leverage do we have to keep Mitch? He’s going to be a UFA in two years right?

    I love him more than any player since Chanthony Moakley but if someone were to offer you two lottery picks for a guy who will walk, you have to do that right?

  79. What leverage do we have to keep Mitch? He’s going to be a UFA in two years right?

    As I understand it, if we give up on the fourth-year option of his contract, we turn him into an RFA next summer, which gives us back a decent amount of control. It also puts us at risk of having to match a poison pill offer from another team, though. So this will be a hugely important year for determining his value to the Knicks long-term.

  80. Sure, but he’s right that they’d just as soon keep it as high as possible.

    Yeah, just seemed like a “water is wet” kinda statement. I’m still unclear as to who exactly sets the luxury tax level — is it the NBA as an organization? How does that work? Do cheapskate owners fight the big spenders? How is an agreement met? Where’s ephus?

    It’s the one time of the year we can have hope, Jowles. Don’t you want us to have hope?

    Indeed, it is the one ten-or-so months a year we can have hope.

  81. Halliburton’s shot is broken yet it seems to go in a lot when he shoots it.

    I understand the worry about his release being slow but who cares if his form is ugly if it works for him? Frank has beautiful form and it seems to not go in that much.

    I get the hesitancy with him to some degree but he does seem like a pretty solid option who won’t be a bust.

  82. I understand the worry about his release being slow but who cares if his form is ugly if it works for him?

    Didn’t we have a similar debate about Lonzo a few years ago? IIRC, his college shooting numbers weren’t nearly as good as Hali’s, but there was still a lot of talk about how he could get away with that ugly form in college, while pros would be too big/strong/fast for him to use it.

  83. Halliburton’s shot is broken yet it seems to go in a lot when he shoots it.

    https://youtu.be/gLfFf4vB-38?t=279

    Watch him run the floor. The ability to make that spin and then square up with the rim is a valuable, unteachable asset.

    https://youtu.be/gLfFf4vB-38?t=303

    Another very impressive move. His burst to get to the backboard is 100% NBA. He’s not going to be James Harden, but he’s long and tall able to use those gifts to create space at the rim. It’s all over this reel. He dunks like Shaun Livingston, too — sort of flushes it with his legs twisting in mid-air. But the elevation is such that he will get his share of easy points. The inability to dunk can be a big problem for guards, as not all of them have the english of a Steph Curry or Kyrie Irving.

    As hitchy as that shot form can be, there is nothing else in this video that won’t translate to the league.

    For once, I’d like to see a lazy gapper double, rather than going down swinging on a big hack.

  84. Didn’t we have a similar debate about Lonzo a few years ago? IIRC, his college shooting numbers weren’t nearly as good as Hali’s, but there was still a lot of talk about how he could get away with that ugly form in college, while pros would be too big/strong/fast for him to use it.

    Sure, but Ball just hit 37.5% on 395 attempts this year, and relatively few of them (21%) were corner threes, which he hit at a lower efficiency than the rest of his attempts. It’s coming around.

  85. Halliburton is listed at 6’5″, but he looks way taller in those vids, like 6’7″ 6’8″

    I’m with Jowles on this one, he just looks NBA ready. I really hope we get him.

  86. Yeah, I’ve talked myself out of Hali after everyone going off about his shot being too slow but the more I think about it, the more he seems like one of the safest choices. He’s not bad on defense either. Just feel like we won’t be upset about Hali in 2 years if we pick him. There might be some players who end up being better but I don’t think Hali will be a bust.

  87. I like Hali for his preternatural passing abilities, but he does have a few sticky issues.

    1. He makes a hell of a lot of passes in mid-air, which is pretty much a no-no in general but will really screw you in the NBA. Most likely, this will only affect his assist/TO ratio a bit, and he’ll probably become more conservative about this habit over time.

    2. I don’t eally take issue with his wonky shot form off the catch, but it could be close to impossible for him to pull up off the bounce in the lane. That being said, that’s a low percentage shot anyway. So if he can bulk up enough that he’s able to finish near the hoop semi-regularly, then he should be okay. He needs to give defenders a reason not to crowd him at the 3 pt line.

    Note: I’ve really been thinking about these poor kids for too long — let’s just run this draft already!

  88. Wasserman’s latest top 50 big board is out, combining what he’s hearing from teams and his own takes. A few notable deviations from a lot of the recent mocks:

    * He has Hayes 2nd overall (after LaMelo), Okongwu 3rd, and Wiseman down at 9th.
    * Williams at 7th and Tyrese Maxey all the way up at 8th, while Vassell is down at 16th.
    * Interesting group right outside the top 10: Poku at 11, Josh Green at 12 (highest I’ve seen him), Okoro at 13, Tyrell Terry at 14. (Terry seems to be rising up the board now that he’s put on weight.)
    * Grant Riller at 21.

  89. If the shooting form is bad, it will show up in the numbers. If the numbers are good, go with the form.

  90. Hali is a really difficult prospect to gauge. His numbers are obviously really good in general, but there are some doubts that the numbers will translate. First, his free throw rate is really, really bad. As is his scoring volume in general. His passing in the halfcourt is good but not great–he never turns it over but often jump passes and just makes the obvious pass most of the time, though he is a very good passer in transition. He’s not one of those PGs who can conjure up angles out of nowhere. Because of his lack of scoring chops (and the fact that what scoring chops he does have are pretty much entirely predicated on a really funky shooting form and his 50% 3PA rate) and merely fine passing in the half court, he looks more like a combo guard or secondary ball handler in the NBA to me. I think he could really thrive in such a role if the three point shooting is for real, but either way he becomes markedly less valuable at the SG position than the PG position. I’m also worried that if the shooting doesn’t translate he sort of suffers from a Frank issue where he’s going to be slotted in as a low usage SG who can only really defend guards (dude is way too skinny to defend wings, though his team d is excellent). He’s obviously a better prospect than Frank, but he fits that mold if the shooting doesn’t translate.

    In general you have to look at Hali and ask: do you want a low usage shooting guard with plus passing, who fills up the box score, plays solid two position d, and has minus scoring ability? Because that looks like his median outcome to me (IF everything translates–if the 3pt shooting isn’t for real idk if he has a place in the league). That’s by no means bad, but I want a genuine lead guard who can orchestrate an NBA offense. I don’t think Hali looks like that kind of player unfortunately.

  91. Silky, I don’t really disagree with your downside description of Tyrese (except perhaps the minus scoring ability). I do agree he’s not a classic point guard, but my feeling is that there’s no real classic point guard in this draft that doesn’t have huge holes in his game (see LaMelo) that might take many years to fix/fill, if ever.

    Three intangible points in his favor is that 1) he seems quite smart, 2) he clearly is a hard worker, and 3) he’s shown significant improvement between his freshman and soph years, which I attribute largely to 1 and 2. You can say “and now he’s plateaued,” but I suspect he’s got the mental and physical skill set to continue to improve — something Knicks draft picks have suffered with lately…

    I’ve watched enough tape to convince myself (!) that he has real NBA scoring capability. As in a real #2 scorer on a respectable team. The odds of him becoming Reggie Miller are not huge, but a Reggie Lite is a real possibility. I’d take that in this draft.

    (By the way, writing ‘Reggie Miller’ left a really foul taste in my mouth…)

  92. I’d rather have a guy with great fundamentals (defense, shot %, high IQ play, very solid passing and court vision) than a guy that has the other stuff (frame, wingspan, ‘toughness’, flashy passes, iso-ball). He is not a risk taker other than those jump-passes. This guy is an ELITE catch and shoot, PNR, spot up shooter. He has great efficient numbers on all levels, except free throw rate and FT%. Spencer Pearlman at The Stepien has a great analysis on him

  93. Don’t forget, Hali didn’t have great teammates, especially the bigs. Lots of tape of those guys fumbling Hali’s pretty passes through tight holes.

    I am confident that he can bulk up enough to at least force the defense to respect his drives. I think he’s a lot more fluid when driving than say, Vassell (who I also like btw).

    I think his ceiling as a “big dawg” is limited because he doesn’t have the quick-twitch athleticism of a Donovan Mitchell, but he reads the game so well… maybe almost TOO well, to the point where he should trust his scoring trick bag a bit more. I think his ceiling is Chauncey Billups.

    But I think he’s a great fit with RJ (if you believe that “fit” matters), and I think his stellar play with team USA U19 is actually an important factor.

  94. He definitely needs to work on drawing contact in the paint. And the jump pass thing can be fixed, IMO.

  95. I also like the flexibility that picking Hali affords you. He can work as a traditional point guard as needed, but he can slide to the 2 if we find a generational pg, or he can become a secondary playmaker if we find a legit point-forward.

  96. You can’t have enough passers in today’s league, especially when they’re 6’5″ and can guard 1-3 with ease.

  97. Yeah I like that about Hali too. Its been seen as a knock that maybe he isn’t the best “pure PG” but I think with RJ all ready on the team, there is some flexibility there. Hali at the 1 and RJ at the 2. Or Hali at the 2 and RJ at the 3 with another PG at the 1.

    He just seems solid. Good passing, good shooting, good defense. Smart player.

  98. A few weeks ago I asked the board if Haliburton was potentially similar to Kyle Anderson, in that they are both long, skinny, playmaking tweeners with excellent college stats despite their non-traditional “process” to get those stats.

    The board was VERY high on Anderson when he was drafted, I recall. He’s been an okay pro, but hasn’t really had much impact on the league. I’m just wondering if people are focused on the Lonzo comp because of the bad form, but missing the bigger picture, which is the speed?

  99. To clarify, I have Hali at like #5 on my big board. I don’t think he’s going to be a bust and I would love to have him on the Knicks, because who doesn’t love a good glue guy. But I’d prefer Hayes all things considered, as I think he’s just the better prospect generally and fits the Knicks’ needs better.

  100. Hali may not be able to drive much in the NBA, but he can absolutely read the floor and make the right pass/play. Here’s where I remind everyone that our 1 good season featured Kidd & Prigs playing off the ball & too old to drive much. There’s still value there.

  101. I mostly agree with Silky’s analysis, but I’m probably a tad more bullish on his ability to become a passable volume scorer. His 2PA volume is definitely red-flag level low, but (eye-test alert) I always got the impression he had good enough touch and athleticism to drive more than he did Iowa State. It’s worth noting he was nursing a wrist injury for a lot of the season IIRC, which could’ve affected his willingness there.

    Regardless, I don’t think he profiles as a full-time, ball dominating point guard (at least not for a good team). He profiles as the kind of player people pretend Frank can be, though, which is a good player.

    I think he’s a pretty good bet to be able to defend the opposing team’s best guard, be a reliable spot up threat, be a solid PNR partner for Mitch or whoever else, and be a good transition facilitator. It’s not the most exciting profile in the world but depending on who else is available it works for me in this draft.

  102. If you listen to Hali’s and LaMelo’s sit-downs with Mike Schmitz, the contrast is mindblowing. One sounds like a rocket scientist, the other sounds like an 8yo kid. Both guys seem to have savant-level court vision and similar size-athletic ability. LaMelo seems savant-like in other areas but the lack of a shot and maturity are worrying. Hali has significant weaknesses technically, but seems incredibly self-aware and I can’t imagine him not figuring out how to maximize his impact on the court. I’d roll the dice with him of all the guards in the top-10. Alternatively, I’d be happy to trade down for either Terry or Lewis Jr., or maybe an athletic wing like Achiuwa.

  103. I am very skeptical about Vassell, just don’t feel any juice in that pick. Of course, it looks like the Knicks are targeting him.

  104. There’s pretty much no reason to take Vassell over Hali if they’re both available at 8–Hali just outperforms Vassell in pretty much every way and can also slot into a 3 and d role. Like you said, Vassell has 0 juice–just doesn’t project to me much more than a brutally average 3 and d guy. I’d be really disappointed if the Knicks targeted him–it would be a really deflating draft pick.

  105. I remember how smart and self-aware Landry Fields used to sound in interviews… just sayin’!

    I think Vassell is the better man defender, but Of course Hali has more ball skills.

    They could both easily become very average players! That’s why teams with a total lack of talent will often bet on “upside”.

  106. This is such a hard draft to figure. Like, who should we eliminate being available at #8?
    -LaMelo, Edwards and Wiseman seem like locks to go in the top 7.
    -Hali, Hayes, Okongwu and Avdija seem to round out the field based on recent chatter (CHI and DET both looking for playmakers according to RealGM), although Toppin and Okoro are certainly going to be considered in the top 7. And then there’s Vassell and Williams.

    So who we pick (if we even stay at #8 which is as uncertain as it has been for us in a long time) is largely a function of who drops to us. Maybe the Vassell attention is in the case that both Hayes and Haliburton are gone. But if they’re both gone, it almost certainly means that one of Okongwu, Toppin, Avdija, or Okoro has fallen out of the top 7. Maybe Wiseman…I would consider passing over him at #8 a monstrous error unless there is inside info about him that is deeply concerning, he seems to have the highest floor in the draft and the easiest to trade for assets during or after the draft. I would take any of Toppin, Avdija or Okoro over Vassell but no strong feelings there. Don’t know much about Williams, so I’d have to be convinced to reach for him.

    Man, this is going to be one long month, especially if the election is not resolved quickly.

  107. I have to concur about Lamelo. It’s totally stupid but I saw him interviewed and immediately moved him down 23 spots.

  108. I’m not sure how much intelligence matters, to be honest. When Latrell Sprewell was a warrior, I never heard him speak. He seemed like a really dumb guy from his actions. But when he came to NY and gave interviews, you could tell he was a highly intelligent person trapped in a very stupid person’s body. He just had an intelligence in the way he spoke, and the way he viewed things. Certain chemicals, for whatever reason, over-rode that intelligence too often, and the intelligence didn’t really translate to much success, either on the court or off of it.

  109. Several teams said the Knicks are open to using their cap space to take on undesirable contracts via trade, per @IanBegley

    This is a family blog (is it?), so I will not describe my physiological reaction to this tweet. But I’m sure you can imagine.

  110. Several teams said the Knicks are open to using their cap space to take on undesirable contracts via trade, per @IanBegley

    How sad is it that this might be the best Knicks related update I’ve ever seen?

  111. How sad is it that this might be the best Knicks related update I’ve ever seen?

    Wait ’til you see what they do with the 4 first-rounders they get for renting out the space.

    (The answer rhymes with Shake Bliffen.)

  112. #7 overall for $75M in salary over two years is a LOT, especially with a shrinking cap.

  113. I definitely would. The 7th pick is a ton of value for a two-year deal. It’s a lot of money but what else are we going to be doing with it in the next two years?

  114. Why not demand the piston’s 2021 pick for that salary?

    (Or both, for that matter. We can arrange a Mavs pick/Pistons pick “right to swap”in 2021 to satisfy stepien)

  115. It’s the Pistons, so their future firsts will never be worse than 22 or so. Gimme some future firsts!

  116. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    #7 overall for $75M in salary over two years is a LOT, especially with a shrinking cap.

    Yes it is, but maybe we dump Randle’s contract….honestly I’d rather watch Griffin on one leg for 2 years than Julius for one.

  117. I’ll admit that taking on Griffin for picks would be pretty entertaining. Obviously he sucks now but he’d at least be fun to watch and he’s a willing passer. He could slot in reasonably well alongside Mitch and he’d weirdly be one of our better 3 point shooters. (This all assumes he can still walk this year.)

    Addendum – dumping Randle would also be a good sweetener.

  118. Mike Honcho: Obviously he sucks now but he’d at least be fun to watch and he’s a willing passer.

    I’m not so sure he will suck, at least on offense. Here’s an article talking about his surgery and rehab…he claims to feel great but so did Amare during every offseason of his steep decline. But a healthy-ish Blake Griffin is a very good player.

  119. Sure, 2021 first and this years, whatever! In reality, I don’t think the Pistons part with multiple firsts or future unprotected firsts for Blake unless they’re really dumb. He has 2 years left and they’re not winning anything in the next 2 years no matter what they do.

    But I do think they might consider biting on this year’s 7th pick. And a GM could have some fun with those 2 picks…trade one to move down, or package them to move up…

  120. Yeah I guess I should have given the caveat that if he can return to like 80% of form he’s a quality player. I think it would actually be good for the young bucks to play with him, since his ability to operate on the perimeter and passing should make life a little easier for all of them while still getting them involved. Having two picks this year would actually be kind of amazing, since our chances of getting a solid rotation piece would go up considerably if we can take two of the top ten prospects.

  121. Where do we come off thinking that we’re getting Blake Griffen without giving up one or two 1st round picks?

    This is the same situation as CP3 and Westbrook. Add DeMar DeRozan, Jrue Holiday, John Wall to the list of candidates with big deals. I don’t see how any trade like this returns a pick.

  122. Blake is much more “damaged goods” than most of those guys. He is viewed league-wide as severely compromised. Probably true for Wall as well. No one is taking on either of them without getting something major in return. CP3 may not be movable without OKC throwing in a pick. Westbrook probably still has some prime left but you’re getting a diva who isn’t a great fit in today’s game. DeRozan can’t shoot from 3 but is otherwise a very good player in the final year of his rather reasonable contract so SA won’t get fleeced on him. Holiday is a very good 2-way player still in his prime, also on a reasonable contract.

  123. I think a Wall trade would definitely brings back a couple picks. Blake… it’s hard to say. I guess it depends on how badly those owners want to get out of those salaries. Both Detroit and Washington have relatively poor ownership, and I’m sure the pandemic has hurt them both.

  124. i wouldn’t hate bringing in jrue to the team…pretty sure he wouldn’t come with a pick or any kind of salary relief…he’d be worth some assets though, not a terrible salary, good stats…been relatively healthy for a few years…maybe could help get randle right…

    i really think thibs needs a veteran point guard to make things work…

    wow, they just booed the fuck out of manfred…well done fans/concession sales in attendance…

  125. Why would we bring in broken pieces like Blake or Wall? I just don’t get the thought process. CP3 is a much worse contract because of it’s length and his age but Blake and Wall are on perpetual injury rehab assignments and they are demanding a pick back! I don’t think we agree about the market.

  126. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    It’s the Pistons, so their future firsts will never be worse than 22 or so. Gimme some future firsts!

    Yeah put me down for that Blake deal. Normally I’d say “haven’t we had enough of injury-prone former All-Star PFs?” but if we’re getting a pick or two AND we have no delusions on what Griffin is AND he can still be productive – I’d take it.

    Dodgers win WS. Fireworks and whooping all around me. JK47 and Geo sharing my pain… lol.

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