The Knicks Select Obi Toppin With the #8 Overall Pick

The Knicks selected Obi Toppin from Dayton with the #8 pick.

He had a strong college season, but he’s also 22 years old, older than Frank Ntilikina, Kevin Knox and Mitchell Robinson.

And he’s not a great defender.

However, he has a strong offensive game and really, whatever your thoughts are on the pick itself, how can you not fall in love with the Toppin family during that heartfelt, adorable interview? Love to see stuff like that.

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632 thoughts to “The Knicks Select Obi Toppin With the #8 Overall Pick”

  1. Here’s the summary of Vecenie’s scouting report on Toppin:

    Ultimately, right now Toppin is a dominant offensive player where teams will have to figure out how much he’s going to give back on defense. His role is tailor made for the modern NBA on offense. He will score points and play well within a team construct as a mismatch problem at both the 4 and the 5. But where you fall on Toppin ultimately comes down to how much you think his defensive game can improve. He’s a mismatch problem for his team on both ends. College coaches who spoke with me think so much of it came down to the offensive role. That because he’s a good kid and good teammate, he’ll work harder on defense at the next level when held accountable. But the tape is the tape and it’s not particularly positive. And the ways in which its not positive create massive concerns for his NBA future. I’m such a fan of the offensive game’s translation that I have him rated this high in the hopes that a young player can figure out how to use his athleticism in a positive way to at least not be a disaster on defense. He’s one of the few guys in this class who have legitimate 20-point-per-game upside in the right situation, which means it’s worth taking a flier on it and hoping it’ll get figured out. But he’s potentially a role player, microwave offensive option if it doesn’t.

    Like Brian said, it’s hard not to want to root for the kid after that interview. I’d have preferred Hali, Deni, or Vassell, but there are no perfect prospects in this draft and I look forward to seeing Thibs, Payne, and Bryant work with Obi.

  2. Nice pick for the Spurs though I’m surprised they didn’t take Haliburton. If Haliburton gets past Sacramento New Orleans has to pick him. He’d fit in perfectly there.

  3. I’m not mad at it. I’m surprised that the reaction has been so negative all-around, but I didn’t watch him in college and was mostly sold on him from the Lowe Post podcast with Mike Schmitz and Jonathan Givony. He’s a beast offensively, obviously, and sounds like his bball IQ (and character) is high enough to at least maybe mitigate some of the defensive stuff and be a decent team . And honestly after a few years of drafting disappointing 18 and 19 year olds I don’t mind drafting someone who’s a little more developed.

  4. I agree about trading up for Tyrese and the Knicks and defense.

    Also love how the draft helps me clean up my pronounciation of some prospect names

  5. if we somehow come away with Lewis, Nesmith or Dotson I’ll forgive the Toppin pick…

    and for the record…toppin isn’t super terrible … he has a chance to be something unlike some of the other bad picks we have…. we probably could’ve done a lot better tho…

  6. One thing about Obi, to say he’s efficient is an understatement. He’s crazy efficient at a pretty significant usage. This is not a Kevin Knox situation.

  7. vincoug:
    Nice pick for the Spurs though I’m surprised they didn’t take Haliburton.If Haliburton gets past Sacramento New Orleans has to pick him.He’d fit in perfectly there.

    The last time a Halliburton got a contract in New Orleans things didn’t turn out so right.

  8. I really don’t think Obi is that bad of a pick at 8. But he doesn’t fit the mold of modern PFs and that worries me a lot. For this draft he’s fine but Haliburton was the love of this board and unexpectedly still available at 8. If he wasn’t there I’d feel different.

  9. BigBlueAL:
    One thing about Obi, to say he’s efficient is an understatement.He’s crazy efficient at a pretty significant usage.This is not a Kevin Knox situation.

    It’s just really hard to project that efficiency to the next level when the tape looks like he really capitalized on being a man playing with boys.

    The fact that his defense is awful and his offense has a legitimate question like that should have disqualified him with guys like Halli, Avidja, Vassell, Bey, Nesmith all on the board.

  10. Halliburton was tailor-made to be a Spur. I’m surprised they passed him over, but Vassell sounds like a great get for them.

  11. I wish I believed as much in his offense as it seems like all the serious draft watchers do. I just can’t get past the mismatch between the body and the game. He’s in a wings body and has primarily a bigs game. The tape looks a lot like what I’d expect from a guy playing against younger, inferior competition. I don’t see him as a dominant offensive player, more a good one.

  12. We hired an NBA version of Bodie Van Wagonen. It’s going to be another 4-5 years of ineptitude for the Knicks.

  13. I have more faith in Obi than our last three lotto picks, but that’s not saying much.

    Whatever, I’m interested in who we grab at 23

  14. Hubert: It’s just really hard to project that efficiency to the next level when the tape looks like he really capitalized on being a man playing with boys.

    This is the same BS logic re: Steph Curry…beating up on low-level D1 players, older, etc.

  15. I was trying to talk myself into it but I don’t think I really can.

    Defense is something we have hated for years but so is competent guard play. Don’t get it

  16. Trust me I agree, I wanted Haliburton or Vassell. But I do see some potential optimism in Obi, drafting him makes more sense than Frank and Knox did. I know that’s setting the bar super low but that’s all we got right now.

  17. I wish I believed as much in his offense as it seems like all the serious draft watchers do. I just can’t get past the mismatch between the body and the game. He’s in a wings body and has primarily a bigs game. The tape looks a lot like what I’d expect from a guy playing against younger, inferior competition. I don’t see him as a dominant offensive player, more a good one.

    Yeah, i guess we have to hope the 3 point shot keeps developing. I don’t know, he didn’t shoot a ton of 3s in college and he’s a good but not particularly impressive FT shooter. Toppin took 2/3 of his non-3s at the rim, so I’m also not sure he works with Mitch, but he’s not going to be able to play defense at the 5 in the NBA at all at his size.

    I wonder if we’ll be able to trade Randle for anything at all. He’s gotta go.

  18. Brian Cronin:
    I mean, at least Obi can shoot. That honestly is something, ya know?

    He’s got a 70% FT percentage and took 81 3’s in two seasons. Are we sure he can shoot?

  19. °°°The last time a Halliburton got a contract in New Orleans things didn’t turn out so right.°°°

    Hahaha. That’s good.

  20. Saying he’s a man among boys in college pretty much goes for 90% of the upper level guys who are getting drafted in the lottery. Certainly it’s better for someone to dominate in college, like Obi did offensively, then look mediocre with “potential”, like every other pick we’ve made in the last decade. I take this as an improvement in drafting strategy.

  21. Owen:
    I was trying to talk myself into it but I don’t think I really can.

    Defense is something we have hated for years but so is competent guard play. Don’t get it

    This my sentiments exactly. Its like there is someone making these picks and the GMs we choose are just puppets on a string.

  22. Highlights make him look like a 21st century Clarence Weatherspoon. But what do I know.

    That’s way too spot on. Yikes. Hopefully he’s better than that! I at least like the fit between Toppin and Mitch. Let’s say they get two guys who can shoot in the backcourt in free agency. You’d have two shooters then a frontcourt of RJ, Toppin and Mitch. It’s something.

  23. If his three point shot is for real he’s probably going to good enough offensively to make up for his defense as long as his effort level is good. If not, he’ll be Kenny Sky Walker Jr.

  24. He’s got a 70% FT percentage and took 81 3’s in two seasons. Are we sure he can shoot?

    Well, at least we’re not sure he CAN’T shoot!

  25. I should say for my negativity that I don’t think it’s a disaster. Not who I would’ve picked but this is a totally fine outcome so far. There were a lot of really dumb things we could’ve done and I don’t put this in that category.

  26. Z-man: This is the same BS logic re: Steph Curry…beating up on low-level D1 players, older, etc.

    I don’t think so.

    If you can shoot 3’s at high volume and high percentage every time you take the floor from freshman to senior year, you’ve got undeniable skill.

    If your offensive efficiency is dependent on dunks that you weren’t able to start getting consistently until you were 2 years older than everyone else in a bad conference, it is questionable if you can do that at the next level.

  27. Well, at least we can say he wasn’t a reach. But he’s really going to need a good point guard throwing him the ball.

  28. If Obi is Amare light, like his scouting report says, and he can shoot 36% from 3pt range, that would be a steal.

  29. Woj: Minnesota is acquiring Oklahoma City’s Ricky Rubio, the 25th and 28th picks for a package that includes the No. 17 pick, sources tell ESPN.

  30. So we are going to take one of:
    Tyrell Terry
    Precious Achiuwa
    Tyrese Maxey
    Cole Anthony
    Saddiq Bey
    RJ Hampton
    Theo Masdelon
    Isaiah Stewart (he’s a PF, why not?)
    Desmond Bane
    Poku
    Flynn
    Bolmaro

    I’d be happy with any of them…

  31. GoNYGoNYGo – Ready for 2020 Knicks 2.0:
    If Obi is Amare light, like his scouting report says, and he can shoot 36% from 3pt range, that would be a steal.

    I don’t think he is. Amare was a much, much better athlete than Obi. Obi’s got good straight line speed and leaping ability but has no lateral speed, agility, or the ability to change direction.

  32. Obi drew all the attention in college and dominated. Not saying he’ll be successful in the NBA, but this is like light years from a Kevin Knox pick.

  33. DRed
    November 18, 2020 at 8:57 pm
    Literally drafting the new President’s son’s client. Fucking idiots.

    count me in with the folks who see this as a not so good sign for our POBO…

  34. Edit:
    So we are going to take one of:
    Tyrell Terry
    Precious Achiuwa
    Tyrese Maxey
    Saddiq Bey
    RJ Hampton
    Theo Masdelon
    Desmond Bane
    Poku
    Flynn
    Bolmaro

    Stewart made no sense, so good!

  35. Is there a new rule where you can trade a first round pick back to the Commissioner for 5 extra wins?

    Glad we didn’t take Cole

  36. Calling a 22/23 year old college player “Amar’e Light” kind of defeats the purpose of the analogy as the entire point of Amare was that he was a fast breaking dunking machine in the NBA coming out of HS as a teenager.

    It’s like calling Dwayne Bacon “Michael Jordan Light”….

  37. vincoug: don’t think he is. Amare was a much, much better athlete than Obi. Obi’s got good straight line speed and leaping ability but has no lateral speed, agility, or the ability to change direction.

    Search Obi Toppin Amare Stoudemire – that’s what the pro scouts are saying, not me.

  38. i was hoping nesmith dropped. now i’m hoping for bane. but some of the small guards like dotson and terry seem okay, too.

  39. Is Mills still secretly running the team?

    We took the athletic scorer that plays no defense. I’m seeing a pattern here.

    I thought it was lock we going to take Haliburton when he dropped. He looked like a perfect fit, but some smart people passed on him (like the Spurs). So maybe there’s something we are missing.

  40. Kevin Udwary: Saying he’s a man among boys in college pretty much goes for 90% of the upper level guys who are getting drafted in the lottery.

    It goes for literally 0% of the players in the lottery . He’s 22. Every other player in the top 10 was 19 years old.

  41. Clippers trading Shamet to the Nets for pick 19. Feel like we could have done something similar with pick 23 maybe.

  42. Deeefense:
    Is Mills still secretly running the team?

    We took the athletic scorer that plays no defense.I’m seeinga pattern here.

    I thought it was lock we going to take Haliburton when he dropped. He looked like a perfect fit, but some smart people passed on him (like the Spurs). So maybe there’s something we are missing.

    Isaiah.

  43. Tyrell Terry
    Precious Achiuwa
    Tyrese Maxey
    Cole Anthony
    Saddiq Bey
    RJ Hampton
    Theo Masdelon
    Desmond Bane
    Flynn
    Bolmaro

    Poku is not my thing, too skinny and young, won’t be good for at least 3-4 years.

  44. If the KB hive mind had made the pick, it clearly would have been Haliburton. And if the KB hive mind had a second choice it would have been Vassell.

    Bookmark for future reference.

  45. edit: clippers are getting kennard actually so a little less weird

    Yeah, Kennard is an upgrade on Shamet. I don’t get why the Nets just didn’t get Kennard for themselves, though.

  46. Hubert: It goes for literally 0% of the players in the lottery .He’s 22.Every other player in the top 10 was 19 years old.

    Most of those guys will go all Mudiay/Ntilikina/Knox/RJ on their teams

  47. It’s likely we take one of:
    Tyrell Terry
    Precious Achiuwa
    Desmond Bane
    Tyrese Maxey
    Saddiq Bey
    RJ Hampton
    Theo Madelon

    I’m good with any of them

  48. Ntilakilla
    November 18, 2020 at 9:40 pm
    Calling a 22/23 year old college player “Amar’e Light” kind of defeats the purpose of the analogy as the entire point of Amare was that he was a fast breaking dunking machine in the NBA coming out of HS as a teenager.

    It’s like calling Dwayne Bacon “Michael Jordan Light”….

    Harold Miner!! The man could dunk. Preferably in an empty gym.

  49. Owen:
    I feel like Randle is a better comp for Toppin than anyone else mentioned

    Randle at #8 in this draft would not be a bad outcome.

  50. Tyrell Terry
    Precious Achiuwa
    Desmond Bane
    Tyrese Maxey
    RJ Hampton
    Theo Madelon
    Jaden McDaniels

    I liked Bey, but we need a guard or a Swiss Army knife (Precious!)

  51. Shamet can shoot a lot better than anyone in this draft

    there’s talent out there…moving around…free agency starts on friday…need to check to see which are repped by caa…

  52. It goes for literally 0% of the players in the lottery .He’s 22.Every other player in the top 10 was 19 years old.

    Age has nothing to do with it. Edwards was physically dominating guys. Wiseman absolutely looked like a man among boys in the few games he played. Same with RJ Barrett last year. These guys won the genetic lottery and have the size and athleticism to dominate the average college players. It’s nice to see someone actually dominate when they are supposed to.

  53. MJG1789:
    Ntilakilla
    November 18, 2020 at 9:40 pm
    Calling a 22/23 year old college player “Amar’e Light” kind of defeats the purpose of the analogy as the entire point of Amare was that he was a fast breaking dunking machine in the NBA coming out of HS as a teenager.

    It’s like calling Dwayne Bacon “Michael Jordan Light”….

    Harold Miner!! The man could dunk. Preferably in an empty gym.

    Yeah, Minor was the right comp with MJ.

    I should’ve called Bacon “Kobe Bryant Light”…

  54. Steve Nash seems like a steadying influence upon a team.

    Hopefully, he isn’t a paranoid, backstabbing alchy like Jason Kidd.

  55. Tyrell Terry
    Desmond Bane
    Tyrese Maxey
    RJ Hampton
    Theo Madelon
    Jaden McDaniels

    Precious was a potential lottery guy…I think teams will regret passing over him.

  56. Heat with another smart pick.

    I fucking hate that Pat Riley could’ve run our franchise once upon a time.

  57. What a weird trade. Why would Brooklyn want Shamet over Kennard?

    Ah, I see, the Clippers also had to throw in Rodney McGruder. So the Nets couldn’t have gotten Kennard with just the pick. So #19 for Shamet is fine.

  58. He actually had a higher TS% his freshman season than he did last year so it’s probably not a question of him just being older than other players. Toppin was 6’5″ his senior year in high school, wasn’t recruited at all and played a 5th season at a prep school before he got to Dayton. Hopefully, he has a little more wiggle room to improve his strength and lateral movement than the average 22 year old given how late his growth spurt was.

  59. Heat with another smart pick.

    I fucking hate that Pat Riley could’ve run our franchise once upon a time.

    Such a great pick for them.

  60. Ntilakilla:
    This organization does not like defense. I am convinced.

    I don’t know about that. Their defense was much better than their offense last year and part of that was due to playing time choices. Ntilikina got more minutes than Smith for example. There a long history of offense only players having value in the NBA. I don’t think he’s a horrible pick. It’s a very different pick than Knox. Toppin is at least really good at some things. Knox could do lots of things but wasn’t good at any of them.

  61. DRed:
    Trading our second to move up 4 spots not looking super intelligent right now

    Funny, I am thinking the exact opposite. Some good players are still available.

  62. DRed:
    Trading our second to move up 4 spots not looking super intelligent right now

    Whoever they get, they’ll claim he wouldn’t have been there at 27.

  63. Funny, I am thinking the exact opposite. Some good players are still available.

    I think that’s the argument for not doing the deal, though, no? Since there would still be good players at #27 and then you’d still have the second round pick.

  64. Maxey off the board! Terry could still happen! Okay, if they get Terry, then the move to #23 will be well worth it.

  65. Tyrell Terry
    Desmond Bane
    RJ Hampton
    Theo Madelon
    Jaden McDaniels

    It’s possible that none of these guys are available at #27

  66. should be someone good available… dotson is at the top of my board right now with terry close behind… i would be ecstatic if it was one of them….

    but it will probably be jaden mcdaniels or something….

  67. Knick fan not in NJ: I don’t know about that.Their defense was much better than their offense last year and part of that was due to playing time choices.Ntilikina got more minutes than Smith for example. It was a no brainer to sit him down.

    You mean the playing time choices of the HCs they fired? But I mean, c’mon, Frank may have been a defensive oriented player but Smith wasn’t exactly an offensive oriented one. He was a dud on both ends of the floor.

  68. Brian Cronin: I think that’s the argument for not doing the deal, though, no? Since there would still be good players at #27 and then you’d still have the second round pick.

    Not if the good players still available are taken between 23 and 26…which is very possible…

  69. Dawg if we don’t take Tyrell Terry with the 23rd pick I’m gonna be really not okay with this shit.

  70. I think the only way they screw up this pick is if it’s another PF… lol
    Looks like folks want either Terry or Hampton. Let’s see…

  71. Dotson, Terry, Flynn, maybe even roll the dice on RJ. We should honestly trade down. I’d be fine with Cassius Winston

  72. Guard. He’s not bad. It’s just that he would have easily been there at #27 and, well, you know, I wanted Terry bad.

  73. We’re trading him to Minny for 25 and 33! I’m on board. Either Terry or Hampton will be there, and we also get a very high second for somebody like Tillman.

  74. Dolan really needs to hire people who understand the analytics value of having extra draft capital in drafts like this.

    Was this Argentine worth trading away a 2nd round pick to move up four spots in this draft?

    This is GM-ing 101.

  75. I don’t know much about this guy, but a quick look at a few mocks have him between 23 and 26, so seems about the right range maybe. Not super keen on the pick with Terry and Hampton on the board still.

  76. Hampton at 24, and being traded to Denver. That’s fine. Either Terry or Bane would make me SO happy, you guys.

  77. Minny giving up 33 to move up two slots and pick someone nobody was talking about is ???? But it’s nice to be on the other side of one of those

  78. Damn Quickly has a pretty awesome free throw rate, too. Pretty horrible AST%, but super low turnovers. Scoring PG, with RJ doing most of the ballhandling, maybe?

  79. I think that it’s gotta be that they moved up to get Maxey (another Kentucky guy) and when he went at #21, they traded back.

    What a weird trade for Minnesota. The same complaint I had for the Knicks was true for them. They could have gotten Bolmaro at #25!

  80. vincoug: Yeah, but it looks like he’s a pretty bad passer for a PG.

    He’s not really a PG. He’s a shooter, which is okay, but not a PG.

    Knicks going to go hard for VanVleet?

  81. Picking Quickley made me feel a bit sickly

    You have to hope that the Kentucky guys know something we don’t. But yeah…a CAA player whose agent is Rose’s son and a little known Kentucky prospect. It may work out, but the optics are not good.

  82. This kid is a 3 and D guard. A very niche specialty for where we took him. We’re just reaching for favorites now.

    He was projected as a 2nd round choice.

  83. Seems like a reach, but he can really shoot, and we need shooting in the worst fucking way. Apparently he’s a decent defender

  84. Quickley can shoot but can do fucking nothing else and Terry can shoot and do other things what the fuck

  85. Yikes yeah the optics are a huge turnoff. We’ll see, and I’m still optimistic about Obi, but this is not a good start.

  86. We could have had him at 38!!!

    He’s never going to be a starter. This is much worse than the Toppin pick. Huge reach…

  87. Jesus fucking Christ this team can’t do the right thing even when it does a good thing minutes before

  88. quickley had a very good chance of not getting drafted… at all…. he would’ve been there at 33 at the very fucking least….

  89. Honestly, that’s fucking disgusting. His son’s client just got a four-year guaranteed deal from daddy? Seriously?

  90. 27 and 38 for 25 and 33 was a great swindle. Too bad we had to waste it on this stupid thing.

    Yeah, the trade was so good and then they use it on a guy who they could have easily gotten later in the second. So odd.

  91. This kind of adherence to a small clique of players is so fucking predictable when you hire an agent. They are lazy scouters and always overestimate their own clients and friends. CAA has done this kind of shit before. Its one big insider’s club.

  92. Honestly, that’s fucking disgusting. His son’s client just got a four-year guaranteed deal from daddy? Seriously?

    I think the optics look bad, but it’s unfair. The son is an agent for a big firm and Toppin was supposed to go in the top five. So it isn’t like they drafted a guy projected to go #20 at #8. It was the opposite, in fact.

    Now Quickly? Okay, I got nothing for that. The optics are bad and I think it is fair in that instance.

  93. Meanwhile, we haven’t taken any two-way wings… the most important position in the modern nba, so that’s fucking great.

  94. I don’t think we should get too bent out of shape out of who they select at #25 and #33. It’s a losing proposition at that point, luck reigns supreme. This draft comes down to the Toppin pick.

  95. Knicks traded 27 and 38 but got 25 and 33 back? How’d Leon pull that off?

    The Wolves were worried about losing Bolmaro, for some reason, so the Knicks got #25 and #33 in exchange for #23, which they traded #27 and #38 for.

  96. Quickly had to be a big push from Kenny Payne. He would know him better than anyone, I suppose. That doesn’t make it a good pick, though.

  97. Looking at IQ’s numbers and I don’t hate them at all. He’s old for a sophomore, but he’s actually good at basketball and played even better in conference than his overall numbers.

    I’m okay with the players we’ve taken so far. I would have gone a different route, but I’m okay with this. If it were my draft, I probably go Lewis Jr at 8 and Desmond Bane at 25.

  98. Flynn off the board to Toronto. There’s still going to be a good prospect available at 33, but it REALLY feels like they could have taken Flynn or Terry or Bane at 25 and Quickley would’ve still been there at 33.

  99. Quickley isn’t a bad pick. Terry just seems to check more boxes on the offensive end for a combo guard. Quickley does have a real advantage on the defensive end though—he’s a good defender. Optics are bad, and it’s hard to know where he would’ve gone since this draft is so weird. I’m disappointed but it’s not an out and out bad pick I think. Please pick one of Devon Dotson, Tyler Bey, Bane, Ramsey, or Xavier Tillman with the number 33 though please

  100. Z-man:
    Quickley can shoot. His ceiling is Lou Williams.

    And he can defend.

    Here’s the Ringer’s profile:
    PROS
    ” Knockdown shooter who hit 40 percent of his 3s and 90 percent of his free throws in two seasons at Kentucky. He has a lightning-quick release off the catch.
    Excellent shooting off screens by creating separation through deceptive, change-of-pace moves.
    Potent off the dribble. With a speedy first step, he’s easily able to create space for one- or two-dribble pull-up jumpers.
    Team player who swings the ball. He’s not a primary ball handler, but he understands his role and plays it well.
    Undersized, but has a 6-foot-10 wingspan that made him into an elite defender in college; in the NBA, he projects as a plus defender, at minimum.
    Competes on both ends. He rebounds well for a smaller guy and he’ll battle against bigger players. He accepted his role at Kentucky and excelled.”

    CONS
    “Poor finisher at the rim; he lacks verticality, an off hand, and a sense for using touch.
    Lacks playmaking chops; he’s a reactive passer, not a creator. And though he can handle, he’s not breaking down NBA defenders.
    Despite his length, he still lacks pure size and strength, which will limit his versatility against bigger wings and as an impact off-ball defender.”

    Not sure all the anguish so far is warranted. We need shooting. We need defense. We potentially got both.

  101. Looking forward to Clyde commentating Quickly. So there’s that, at least.

    Agree that late picks are a coin toss, but Terry could have easily been a late teens pick.

  102. So we valued 3PT shooting in this draft it seems. That’s one major byline I can discern between our 8th and 27th picks.

  103. Yes, credit is deserved for a) not reaching for Toppin (i.e. trading up) and b) going from #27 and #38 to #25 and #33 without giving anything up. Even if they screw up the picks, the methodology is better than in the past. And we’re not sure that the guys they picked won’t pan out.

  104. I liked quickley, but in the 2nd round. Maybe pick 33 will make up for the reach, somehow?

    But yes, I have to admit that drafting shooters is a nice change.

  105. Man, Shakespeare would’ve had a field day with a guy named Quickly who is a “shooter” with a “quick release.”

    For reference, look up Mistress Quickly, an inkeeper/former prostitute in several plays. IIRC, she later may have married Pistol, a guy with a quick temper/well endowed member… It was either her or her friend/prostitute Doll Tearsheet.

    I’m not making this up.

  106. We’re apparently taking Daniel Oturu. A center who can’t pass or defend in the pick-and-roll, per the one scouting report I’ve read.

    Time is a flat fucking circle. I’m going to bed.

  107. Owen:
    Carey an excellent pick. Although much more of a widebody than I realized

    He has supposedly lost a ton of weight and his outside shot looks improved! (sorry owen)

  108. Wow, Dallas got Terry at #31 to replace Seth Curry and then traded Curry for Josh Richardson and the Knicks’ original second round pick.

    Man, good jobs by both GMs. Fucking Morey has rehaped Philly pretty damn quickly.

  109. alright we’re done…. now it’s cade cunningham or evan mobley time….

    the countdown on the leon rose era starts….. let’s hope it’s a quick one….

  110. Daniel Oturu, Immanuel Quickley, and Obi Toppin. This is not the draft I wanted, at all, but all of these guys were really productive players when last seen so I can’t say I hate it.

    I’m okay with the results.

  111. Know nothing about this guy but the statistical profile is nice. 59% from 2, 36% from 3 on pretty good volume. A strong rebounder and shot blocker also.

  112. Stayed up long enough to see we’re trading him to the Clips for a 2023 second round pick. Berman says we wanted Carey, but he went one pick ahead of us.

    Seems kind of pointless.

  113. PG Simmons
    SG Curry/Thybulle
    SF Green
    PF Harris
    C Embiid

    That’s an interesting team, with a lot of room to make more moves now. Morey is really good at his job.

  114. Why would you trade a #33 for a likely 50+?

    Excellent question to which I have no idea what the answer is. None.

  115. The 2023 2nd rd pick from the Clippers is actually Detroit’s 2nd rd pick.

    Ah, that explains that. That’s probably in the 30s, at least. Fair enough. Still, the third pick in the second round should be a good pick, right?

  116. It makes zero sense to an early second now for a future second from the Clippers, who have Kawhi Leonard on their team. What the fuck? We’re just throwing away perfectly good picks now for the fun of it? This draft has been a genuine head-scratcher from the Knicks and it’s making me dread FA

  117. Brian Cronin:
    Wow, Dallas got Terry at #31 to replace Seth Curry and then traded Curry for Josh Richardson and the Knicks’ original second round pick.

    Man, good jobs by both GMs. Fucking Morey has rehaped Philly pretty damn quickly.

    LOL, this is Doc Rivers trying to make ammends with his daughter, after coaching Paul George for a year (she used to date Paul George, and they broke up after he cheated on her; now she’s married to Seth Curry). Once again, Rivers’ children influence his basketball decisions, hehe.

  118. So we traded Daniel Oturu for a Detroit 2023 2RP, which is likely a year where they will be tanking to draft Michigan’s own Emoni Bates.

  119. So we traded Daniel Oturu for a Detroit 2023 2RP, which is likely a year where they will be tanking to draft Michigan’s own Emoni Bates.

    A lot better than it being the Clippers’ second. So it makes a tiny bit of sense.

  120. Trading a good 2nd round pick for a 2nd round pick 3 years later makes absolutely no sense at all. Just completely baffling

  121. Should have drafted Quickley 33 and one of several other people 25.

    That does seem to make a lot more sense to me.

  122. DRed:
    I guess we’re overpaying for FVV or doing something exceptionally stupid

    Westbrook still out there… That is the ultimate stupid that is now incredibly likely.

  123. I doubt that is the actual trade. Regardless of it being the double draft in 2023, you don’t trade a present year high 2nd for an unknown pick 3 years in the future. My guess is there’s another 2nd coming somewhere along the way. Or a player.

    Weird draft. I’m ok with Toppin as long as we didn’t give up extra assets to get him. Quickley seems fine- he may have been 30something on mock draft boards but those are all copycat anyway. If anyone knows the player’s potential, it’s the guy who coached and developed him. Hard to argue with an excellent defender who shoots Curry percentages from 3 and from the line.

    As to why we didn’t draft a PG (and interestingly why Toronto drafted Malachi Flynn). Makes you wonder whether FVV is in the bag already.

  124. Trading a good 2nd round pick for a 2nd round pick 3 years later makes absolutely no sense at all. Just completely baffling

    It’s not great value for the pick, agreed. But at least it isn’t the Clippers’ pick.

  125. As to why we didn’t draft a PG (and interestingly why Toronto drafted Malachi Flynn). Makes you wonder whether FVV is in the bag already.

    Guys, it’s Westbrook. They’re gonna trade picks for Westbrook. Multiple firsts, I’m sure of it. We’re fucked.

  126. A lot better than it being the Clippers’ second. So it makes a tiny bit of sense.

    I think it’s bizarre. What are the chances of that DET pick being higher than 33? They probably traded for a lower pick, in the future.

    I’ve never seen a team ‘punt’ on a draft pick like that.

  127. Obi Toppin and Immanuel Quickley wouldn’t have been my absolute worst case scenario, but it wouldn’t have been terribly far from it

  128. Looks to me the team had an alright to decent night maneuvering through a draft short on high-end talent. They made some incremental moves within the margins and drafted an athletic floor-stretching 4 and a legit 3&D guard who can handle the ball some – all of which are team needs. I’m good.

  129. So I’m not mad about the Quickley pick because as an avid listener of the Knicks Film School podcast, Macri had on a host of draft guys and the consensus I got was that the draft was very fluid from pick 15-40. A quick look at his height, wingspan, and stat profile it’s hard to be mad about taking a 6’3″ combo guard with a 6’10” wingspan who shot 42% from 3 and 92% from the stripe. If he’s Allonzo Trier with defense that’s a good player.

    We were never going to pass on Obi Toppin. I think he has a chance to dominate on offense, and hopefully he’s not a Kanter type on defense.

    I’m disappointed we didn’t go all back court, but it’s not like you have to look at the stat profiles of these guys and talk yourself into a player. These guys were good college players.

  130. Definitely feeling a welter of emotions right now. Not sure if it’s good or bad that i didn’t drink anything.

  131. We could’ve had Vassell, Terry, and Tillman. That would’ve been great, but it also would’ve required us to be able to have nice things, which isn’t allowed.

  132. The Infamous Cdiggy:
    Looks to me the team had an alright to decent night maneuvering through a draft short on high-end talent. They made some incremental moves within the margins and drafted an athletic floor-stretching 4 and a legit 3&D guard who can handle the ball some – all of which are team needs. I’m good.

    The prototypes Toppin and Quickley fit into are certainly much more like modern NBA players than recent Knicks draftees. Whether they’ll actually be good is another question.

  133. it is amazing how many people we hire for gm or pobo and every single one of them disrespect the most important part of the job…..

  134. i see the outline of the meteor very clearly now. we have bad management.

    whoever said it’s typical lazy agent BS nailed it on the head. from thibodeau to quickly, he’s chosen what he knows.

  135. It’ll be interesting to see who the Knicks have furtively signed to be the starting point guard. Who’s a CAA client?

  136. Berman tweeted we were targeting Carey at 33 but he was gone so we got rid of the pick, which if true is just astonishingly stupid

  137. If Rose is getting Brandon Ingram and Van Vleet in free agency, then I’m ok with this draft.

    Maybe they end up keeping Randle to platoon the 5 with Mitch? I assume Obi will get lots of minutes. And maybe the team is just really high on Frank?!?!?

  138. In thinking about it, I think it’s fair to say that a future 30-40 pick is more of an asset than Oturu. He’s a ham ‘n egger big, and 2023 is likely to be a deeper draft than this one. The bottom line is that we left this draft with at least equivalent assets with which we entered it. At worst, it’s treading water. I would have prefered Haliburton, but only on gut feeling. Obi’s college stats and improvement trajectory are reasonable compared to Haliburton’s. I would have taken Terry over Quickley, but there is no comparison on the defensive side of the ball and Terry is not a protypical PG.

  139. This was a bizarre draft. First, I didn’t know shit about any of the players because COVID cancelled the NCAA season.

    Then, Toppin, Vassell, and Halliburton all fall to be available at 8, and while I also liked Halliburton and Vassell better, it is also pretty funny to see how much picking Toppin trolled our PTSD-ridden Knicks fan brains.

    Then, the FO pulls off an honest-to-god One Red Paperclip move by moving both their late 1st and 2nd round picks up a few spots and giving away nothing in the process.

    Then, they pick two guys not on the KB shortlist of late round talent, and we smear pig’s blood on our faces and Leon Rose and Walt Perrin are burned in effigy.

    The capper is trading the 2nd round pick for a high 2nd rd pick in… 2023?? This is an exquisite headscratcher.

    But at least it’s not Kevin Knox bad!

  140. The new front office is the same as the old one.

    Just a ficking joke while Presti and Morey are out there doing Cirque du Soleil shit

    Front office is something we can spend as much as we want on.

  141. abk: The prototypes Toppin and Quickley fit into are certainly much more like modern NBA players than recent Knicks draftees. Whether they’ll actually be good is another question.

    Indeed. Drafting players who can shoot, what a concept. Who would have thought it.

  142. detroit could be good in 2023!

    I think I’m getting league pass this year and officially adopting the Grizzlies as my B team

  143. Owen:
    The new front office is the same as the old one.

    Just a ficking joke while Presti and Morey are out there doing Cirque du Soleil shit

    Front office is something we can spend as much as we want on.

    Whut?

  144. Doug Chu: The capper is trading the 2nd round pick for a high 2nd rd pick in… 2023?? This is an exquisite headscratcher.

    Not accurate. the future 2nd round pick surely has more trade value than Daniel Oturu.

  145. In thinking about it, I think it’s fair to say that a future 30-40 pick is more of an asset than Oturu. He’s a ham ‘n egger big,

    Sure I guess, but the Knicks probably drafted him specifically for the trade. The real comparison is everybody else left vs who the fuck knows you could probably buy it for cheap.

  146. There will be lots of hand-wringing over this draft by other teams. We did not do poorly, especially given the speculation over the last few days, e.g. trading #23 and #8 for #5.

  147. Grocer: Sure I guess, but the Knicks probably drafted him specifically for the trade.The real comparison is everybody else left vs who the fuck knows you could probably buy it for cheap.

    That is a myth. No one picked at #33 or after at this moment had more value than the Detroit #2 pick in 2023. Hindsight could change that, but right now, that’s a fact.

  148. As to “buying” picks, we could do that whether we made the trade or didn’t. It comes down to, is it better to have the future pick or an available player right now?

  149. I genuinely like the Quickly pick. Clyde’s gonna have fun with that.

    42 percent 3pt, 92 percent FT, good defense, SEC player of the year. He played behind Herro his freshman year.

    We added shooting and scoring ability with both of our picks. It’s not what we thought but it might be all right.

  150. That is a myth. No one picked at #33 or after at this moment had more value than the Detroit #2 pick in 2023. Hindsight could change that, but right now, that’s a fact.

    Maybe. You’re also projecting future value that’s inherently unknown. Knicks need to put baby birds in their fucking hands.

  151. We don’t know how good Detroit is going to be in 2023. There are only 2 second round picks better than the 3rd pick in the second round. Even assuming 2023 is the year they let HS kids back in the draft-which is not a sure thing-if Detroit is good that pick is still going to suck.

  152. They both can shoot. The both can score inside and out. I have to imaging that they’re signing their starting point guard and that the deal is and has been in the bank.

  153. 2023 is also a whopping 3 seasons away and 2nd round talent from year to year is usually flat… you’re going to find similar players year to year in those rounds… and having a ‘double draft’ isn’t going to impact that… it will have way more of an impact on the high end…

    meanwhile the knicks needs players now… yes we have roster spots being taken up now but saying that the 9th worst guy on the roster is better than what you could’ve potentially gotten in the 2nd rd this year… that’s a huge leap and i really have to question their judgement on this….

    i’m dumbfounded…..

  154. They both can shoot. The both can score inside and out. I have to imaging that they’re signing their starting point guard and that the deal is and has been in the bank.

    Quickley shot 48% at the rim and 38% inside the arc. He did get fouled a decent amount, but he was otherwise a terrible inside scorer

  155. I’m not going to cry because we pushed a pick out three years. We have enough young players to evaluate and we only have a month to do it in.

  156. There is one good NBA player on the Knicks roster, we should be trying to get more good NBA players. Just one man’s opinion.

  157. The 2023 “double draft” is supposed to be a very big deal, and one where picks may be hard to come by the closer it gets. I’d have just as soon taken someone like Xavier Tillman tonight and been done with it, but that pick could turn into a useful asset down the road. And as previously discussed, there are only so many young guys we have room for on both the roster and in the rotation.

  158. DRed: Quickley shot 48% at the rim and 38% inside the arc.He did get fouled a decent amount, but he was otherwise a terrible inside scorer

    His 2Pt% was 41% and much of his scoring was driving to the rim. From your post it seems he needs to work on a mid-range game. But if he’s taking 5 shots from 3pt range per game and making 41% of them, maybe he should never take a 10 footer?

  159. Meanwhile, here’s where our cap stands post draft. Sounds like Bullock is definitely getting his option picked up. Payton might, or we might sign a free agent. So for the moment, that gives us a roster of

    PG: DSJ/Payton (or free agent TBD)/Quickley/maybe Jared Harper
    SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
    SF: Knox/Iggy/maybe Pinson or Dameyan Dotson (Devon Dotson signed with the Bulls)
    PF: Toppin/Randle
    C: Mitch/Wooten/maybe Taj on a cheaper deal

    That is… not a great roster at the moment. A lot is going to depend on Thibs’ schemes and how well Payne, Bryant, and the other coaches can develop the younger players. If seeming lost causes like Knox and DSJ begin looking like viable rotation players, and if Thibs can improve on the general competence of the Mike Miller era Knicks, we’ll still be bad, but at least competitive. If not, I’ll get all my tank gifs ready!

    (A lot may also depend on who Free Agent PG TBD winds up as. Fred Van Vleet is a very different result than DJ Augustin, though I wouldn’t mind Augustin.)

  160. Alan, you’re still up!

    My wife is working late and I’m staying up to encourage her to get stuff done. And because I’m a masochist who keeps trying to make this night make sense.

  161. Alan:
    Meanwhile, here’s where our cap stands post draft. Sounds like Bullock is definitely getting his option picked up. Payton might, or we might sign a free agent. So for the moment, that gives us a roster of

    PG: DSJ/Payton (or free agent TBD)/Quickley/maybe Jared Harper
    SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
    SF: Knox/Iggy/maybe Pinson or Dameyan Dotson (Devon Dotson signed with the Bulls)
    PF: Toppin/Randle
    C: Mitch/Wooten/maybe Taj on a cheaper deal

    That is… not a great roster at the moment. A lot is going to depend on Thibs’ schemes and how well Payne, Bryant, and the other coaches can develop the younger players. If seeming lost causes like Knox and DSJ begin looking like viable rotation players, and if Thibs can improve on the general competence of the Mike Miller era Knicks, we’ll still be bad, but at least competitive. If not, I’ll get all my tank gifs ready!

    (A lot may also depend on who Free Agent PG TBD winds up as. Fred Van Vleet is a very different result than DJ Augustin, though I wouldn’t mind Augustin.)

    I agree, not a great roster. Two comments. We are not heavy on power forwards anymore and two, I just can’t see putting DSJ ahead of Frank at PG.

  162. I feel like packing it in after the player you want gets picked 32nd and trading the 33rd pick because “you have enough young players” is a lot of hubris from a team that won less than a third of their games and is losing half of their rotation. We need to get as much young talent in our training camp as possible because other than Robinson, Barrett, and probably Ntilikina none of our young players are close to sure things and players like Tillman, Dotson, Mannon, Ramsey, Joe, etc., could easily end up better than Pinson, Smith Jr, Knox, Brazdeikis, Harper or Wooten.

    It shows a real lack of out of the box thinking. It really feels like we zeroed in on who we wanted, players connected to our management no less, and ignored everything else. Even though, I am warming up to the Toppin pick and I actually like I Quickley, though much more at 33 than at 25, I still feel like we could have had them and so much more if our management har played the angles better and wasn’t so sure of itself that it felt no need to pick up the money that was laying at their feet.

  163. “Alan
    November 19, 2020 at 12:55 am
    Meanwhile, here’s where our cap stands post draft.”

    Cool, Joakim Noah is the third highest player on the payroll. #knicks.

  164. hopefully julius is just renting there…

    can’t imagine new orleans really wants to hang on to bledsoe…I didn’t like him on the bucks, but, he’d be good to have on the knicks…

  165. Well, I have no idea about the draft, and I always feel like “big boards” and “mock drafts” make it seem like everything is graded smoothly, but afterwards there are busts or all-stars all over the place. So, rootin’ hard for our new Knicks. However, I really wanted some playmaker in this team and this seemed a good draft to get one, Rubio was traded to Minnesota for not too much, and no FAs with those qualities (I find Van Vleet to be a streaky shoot-first guy, not the PG the Knicks need). A bit disappointed then, but I guess we will have to wait for half a season to start knowing the players we have drafted.

  166. Quickley has some things to like in his profile but that really seems like a guy you could have gotten at 33. Probably could have picked up one of the PG prospects who was on the board at 25 and still taken Quickley with the second round pick.

  167. I’d feel a lot better if we had gotten one more decent player. If we could add Terry or Bane or Carey or even Tillman or Dotson I’d be a lot more okay about this draft.

    I think I can come around on Toppin and Quickley. But we just mismanaged our assets. It’s really like we didn’t care to bother to get a third player so we just reached for Quickley and went home.

  168. some personal grades

    Toppin at 8: C. A defensible pick, but not optimal. Would have preferred Halliburton or Vassel.

    Quickley at 27: F. I’ll let the Athletic say it…

    Quickley is an absolute shocker, a good shooter but undersized and not much of an athlete. I’m not sure anybody had him in their top 40, and one wonders if the Knicks overrated him based on the Kentucky connections in their front office.

    trading the 33rd pick: F. what the fuck are you thinking? this team needs players now.

    everything about leon rose so far stinks. he might as well go ahead and do the Westbrook deal.

  169. If Quickley was from literally any other school, I might applaud drafting an insanely talented shooter and solid defender. But now it seems like a reach for a player they could have grabbed at 33 and drafted another solid prospect this year.

    Toppin is fine for this draft. Again, I would have more confidence if I knew this was due to the scouting department and not nepotism.

    Trading into the double draft is smart in general but there were players available who look like solid prospects. I’ll be upset if we don’t find some good value for all 15 roster spots and the 2-ways in free agency.

  170. I would have preferred Hali and Bane (or stayed put at #23 for RJ Hampton) but am okay with how we wound up. As we all knew going in, this draft was very thin and no one was without risk. I don’t mind about the CAA/Kentucky angle, if they turn out to be good players they could be James Dolan’s nephews for all I care. Let’s not forget that over the last week we all were dreading a trade of our picks for an overpaid, old max player and fretting about trading up to land Obi. As it turned out, we wound up staying put at #8 and getting who Rose wanted there (and a guy who lots of mocks had going earlier), and we improved our non-lottery draft position several spots without giving up anything. A second rounder in a loaded draft class surely has more trade value than the #33 poick in this draft.

    There will be lots of reasons to kill this FO forthcoming, but tonight was at worst meh and at best a solid B+-A-. Both guys were excellent college players and we need everything.

  171. I don’t know whether Quickley would have been available at #33, but it doesn’t matter much to me. If that’s the guy you want, just draft him….it’s not like we took him at #8.

  172. Why would we not even go after Devon Dotson as an undrafted free agent??

    This team will never fail to mystify me.

  173. I will say this: it’s sort of refreshing to have a regime that drafts based on court results for once and not youth with theoretical upside.

    Those weren’t the moves I’d have made, but they did pick two guys who made a ton of efficient shots during their college careers.

  174. Nice to watch a draft where the FO seems to know what its doing, assessing value and shrewdly maneuvering their draft position. I bit of a glut at the four, we’ll see how that shakes out in the next 10 days. I’ll trade Randle’s turnovers for Toppin’s promise.

    I know nothing about Quickley, however, some youtube vids show a nice shooting touch. Somewhat of a shotput shooting form but trae young gets away with it. He was playing off the ball, not sure about his pg upside. There was no guarantee this guy would be there at 33, if they liked him enough, grab him when you can, especially in hindsight where they felt there was nobody worth drafting at 33 and traded the pick.

    I have no complaints. Halliburton looks like fun.

  175. Ben R: But we just mismanaged our assets.

    yup. it was very gettelman-esque.

    this is a thin-slice thing for me. if you don’t know how to maximize your assets, I’m ok jumping to the conclusion that you’re not going to be good at this job.

  176. My preference for Obi over Vassell was recorded in real time for posterity and I’m happy my laptop survived. When an Amare 2.0 type is available at 8, you take the risk and you take him and you thank the fates that led to teams above you taking people like Patrick Williams lol. The Knicks need stars. When there’s a guy with actual star potential sitting there at 8, you take him.

    I’m cool with Quickley. Guy can shoot and that’s a massive skill, SEC player of the year. Happy with the draft. Sublime asset-managing perfection? No, it was not.

  177. I agree with this from Z-man:

    There will be lots of reasons to kill this FO forthcoming, but tonight was at worst meh and at best a solid B+-A-. Both guys were excellent college players and we need everything.

    But not this from The Athletic:

    Quickley is an absolute shocker, a good shooter but undersized and not much of an athlete. I’m not sure anybody had him in their top 40, and one wonders if the Knicks overrated him based on the Kentucky connections in their front office.

    I mean, we just hired an analytic guy and a draft guy who are reputedly very good at their jobs. Why should we assume that some magazines’ judgement of players late in the draft is better than the Knicks team’s judgement. (Even if it’s a quality magazine, which it is, their draft evaluation resources are certainly smaller than a pro teams). If our analytics guys have reason to believe certain player attributes compensate for lack of size in Quickley, they might be right. It’s worth waiting and seeing.

  178. Yes, there was asset mismanagement, but talent evaluation trumps assent management. We’ll see if we evaluated well or not.

    VanVleet or bust amirite?!

    Ugh I just had a thought: what if they plan on starting Quickley and using RJ as a de facto point guard/forward?

  179. Also, that Quickley response on The Athletic is from Hollinger, who absolutely hates the Knicks, and takes cheap shots at them in basically every column, even ones that otherwise have nothing to do with them. Obviously, this organization has deserved most of the scorn it’s gotten over the years, and everyone was surprised Quickley went that high, so he could be entirely right. But the glass half-full look is that he’s an elite shooter, and guys with one elite skill — especially that one — can be better bets to have good pro careers than guys who are good at a lot of things but elite at none. Terry, Bane, and Flynn all still seem like smarter choices at 25, but we also hired two assistant coaches with spectacular resumes for player development. Hopefully, they can help both Toppin and Quickley maximize their respective potentials.

  180. Knick fan not in NJ: I mean, we just hired an analytic guy and a draft guy who are reputedly very good at their jobs. Why should we assume that some magazines’ judgement of players late in the draft is better than the Knicks team’s judgement. (Even if it’s a quality magazine, which it is, their draft evaluation resources are certainly smaller than a pro teams). If our analytics guys have reason to believe certain player attributes compensate for lack of size in Quickley, they might be right. It’s worth waiting and seeing.

    And this is the problem. I would trust it if he didn’t go to Kentucky. But he did. Suddenly, it looks like we ignored our highly reputable draft guys to get more Kentucky.

    As an aside, Randle is both a Kentucky alum and CAA client. Is there any actual chance of us dumping him or will we run put a Toppin-Randle frontcourt 25-30 min a night (depending on Mitch’s foul situation)?

  181. If you’ve got 8 minutes to spare, here’s a good conversation between Zach Lowe, Mike Schmitz, and Jonathan Givony about Toppin’s pros and cons. Some red flags, but also some really promising things, especially since they were talking about him in the context of the top 3-5 picks.

  182. I think it’s really hard and unfair to criticize a draft choice after like the 20th pick. At that point there are so many ways to possibly go. Do you do upperclassman with good stats or do you go younger player with upside or euro pick. Anyone acting like Quickley at 25 is some huge reach is talking out of his ass. I also hate the whole “undersized” thing. He’s 6’3”. That’s perfectly average for a guard and quickly I think will be pretty decent on defense.

    I’ve slept on it and I like our picks overall. We did one thing last night. We added a whole lot of firepower and both players can score and shoot.

    It also points to Randle eventually going out the door.

    The trading of the 33rd pick for a second rounder in 2 years was a head scratcher but I believe that is the double draft year. We’ll have two firsts that year and now I believe 2 second rounders as well. That could lewd to some opportunities to trade up if we combine some picks. With so many youngsters on the team all ready accumulating picks later is kind of smart.

  183. A lot of it’s age illusion. People project things that aren’t there onto 19 year olds because they’re 19, and miss things that are there about 22 year olds. There’s a risk that boomerangs back and bites the Knicks in the ass, but it’s a risk worth taking. If a Patrick Williams had stayed at FSU, the odds that he’d be tearing up college basketball at 22 the way Obi did, are very low.

  184. And while trading the second rounder away is a little odd after making trades to move up. The Knicks did something yesterday that I’ve never seen them do.

    They turned the 27th and 38th picks into the 25th and 33rd picks without giving up anything. That’s kind of brilliant and if these are the types of asset management moves we can expect going forward, it bodes well for our future.

  185. And also, Obi is an unusual 22-year-old, developmentally. He was much shorter coming out of high school, didn’t get any offers, had a growth spurt at the post-HS academy he went to, and then had to redshirt at Dayton for a year. So he’s less of a finished product than your ordinary older draftee. At the same time, this really could be all he can be. (On the podcast I linked to a few comments earlier, Lowe noted that Obi plays a bit stiffly on the perimeter, and that with some guys, you can’t coach that out of them; it’s just how their bodies work.)

  186. It’s also “good” that March Madness got cancelled or else Obi would have had a nice run and probably moved up on boards.

  187. After sleeping on it a bit, and also watching some Obi Toppin stuff–

    I am good with the Toppin pick. Seems like a great kid with a strong work ethic who is crazy athletic. He also seems to process things relatively quickly on the offensive end based on his pretty awesome short roll and out-of-double-team passing. His 3 point form looks clean, and there’s no real reason to think that that won’t translate other than the fact that the sample size is only ~100 3 point attempts. Defensively… we’ll see.

    But I think it’s funny that we all pined for Tyrell Terry, who is certain to get roasted on the defensive end and doesn’t have the athletic tools/size to avoid getting picked on mercilessly, yet are so down on Toppin.

    Re: Quickley – he looks like a sniper version of Langston Galloway – undersized for a 2 but big wingspan and a tough defender. Last I checked, Galloway has had a very respectable NBA career. And if you look at some of his scouting videos, he has a pull-up and stepback 3 in his bag, which might make him more plausible as a shot-creator down the line.

    by the way – a guy he probably compares favorably to at least in terms of where they were coming out of college — Seth Curry — just got traded to Morey for Josh Richardson AND the 36th pick.

    Anyway, who knows what will happen – glad that we’ll get to see these guys play in just a few short weeks.

    Re: the complete ignoring of the lead ball handler position – I don’t know if this means FVV’s the guy or that Westbrook is coming (I highly doubt this) or whether it means they think Frank or DSJ might be adequate or that RJ will be the lead ball handler. I guess we will see.

    Re: the 2023 2nd round pick trade – still odd regardless of the double draft. My worry is that in a news dump sometime during the frenzy of free agency we will hear that $4MM is going from Ballmer to Dolan, which would indicate that Dolan’s deep pockets are not deep at all.

  188. Gotta love how we have to second guess all the FO’s moves because of our glaring conflicts of interest. I guess if we could endure the immortal Chris Smith saga, we can endure an overabundance of Kentucky players over the next few years.

    RE: the draft, mixed feelings. I was pleasantly surprised to see them improve our draft position at no cost by fleecing another team, but then they immediately dashed that by how they handled the last pick. It really seems like we could have had Terry and Quickley instead of Quickley and a second round pick in the double draft in a few years. If we had come away with Toppin, Terry and Quickley I would have been very happy with the draft.

  189. TBH – Frank + Quickley + RJ + Obi + Mitch is at least interesting. RJ will be a good defender, and Frank+Quickley has the possibility of being very tough at the point of attack. Mitch can probably clean up some of the Obi stuff. I just hope Frank’s shot has continued to improve.

  190. I like Quickley. I like Toppin. My concern is limited only to the process that went into picking these two.

    If they were both at the top of the draft board for the Knicks, then everything is fine. But there’s the itch in the back of my mind, the place where all conspiracy theories are born, that’s whispering something is rotten.

    Even then, I feel better about this draft’s results than the last 3 and an overwhelming majority dating back to 2000.

  191. Am I the only one upset over trading Oturu for what will end up being Detroit’s future 2nd? I feel like he and Wooten can learn alot from Taj if he comes back.

    Excited to see Mitch and Obi starting though. Don’t know where Quickley plays. He played the 1 before Kentucky and in his freshman season I believe. But at 6’4 with a 6’9 wingspan, maybe he’s Dot’s replacement? Do we still move RJ to the 3? So many questions lol.

    Hate to say this but it’s starting to feel like a Westbrook to NY is imminent. I’d much rather overpay FVV and start he and Ntilikina in the backcourt. 2nd to that, I’d rather pick up Payton’s option and deal he and Randle for Conley. Gonna be an interesting couple of weeks coming up

  192. Meanwhile it seems they guaranteed Bullock. I imagine they will let everyone else go today, and maybe bring Taj back at a lower number.

  193. The most interesting thing for me last night was seeing how heavily it appeared our front office was targeting very specific guys. All the chatter yesterday was about trading up for Obi, and he was eventually the pick at #8. Then it sure looked like we traded up for a specific guy at 23 and moved back when the guy we wanted was no longer available. By all accounts we reached at least a little at 25 (possibly quite a lot), and then let 33 go for a relatively light price when there wasn’t anyone we loved. All of that reads to me like a front office that went in with a short list of guys they really wanted, did what they could to pick those guys and wasn’t that interested in taking guys outside of that narrow group.

    That’s not my preferred draft philosophy but it can work if you have the right scouts/evaluators. We maybe do; Perrin has a great reputation, but it’s hard not to be a little (or a lot) scared that the guys on our shortlist were there for the other reasons that will surely be discussed ad nauseum. My position is that it’s impossible to say with n=2, but if you were concerned about having an agent as the lead decision maker (I was), certainly nothing Rose has done so far is reassuring.

  194. I don’t know if we would have had Terry and Quickley. I’d peg the Mavs as the team the Knicks worried about scooping him.

    The Seth Curry trade says the Mavs were looking for a replacement there and Terry & Quickley most fit the mold.

  195. @Frank Terry supposedly grew two inches over the summer, which makes him a more attractive prospect than he otherwise would have been.

  196. I do think there’s merit to targeting specific players but you better be damn sure your draft guys know what they’re doing and I’d argue most NBA offices don’t.

    The draft is so hit or miss that if you’re sure, then you shouldn’t hesitate to go all in on the guy you like. Again, I would not trust most offices to do it but it can work.

  197. I would’ve been fine with Tyrell Terry but he’s got a negative wingspan (6’3″ in shoes, 6’1.75″ wingspan) and wasn’t seen as much of a passer. I’m sure I’ll eat these words someday but my guess is that Quickley has at least as good a career.

    Re: the Kentucky connection – I am not sure that is a bad thing necessarily. Why do you hire these guys who are so connected unless you’re going to use those connections to get the best intel?

    that 2nd round 2023 thing still really bothers me as it just doesn’t make sense from an asset value standpoint. It’s hard to be sure of anything 3 years out, not the least of which is whether the 2023 draft really will be the double draft. And re: placing a bet on Detroit being bad, for all we know, Killian Hayes could be the next James Harden (although my guess is the FO really thinks he isn’t lol).

  198. I’m going to reserve judgement until I see some of these guys play a little, but I still have some thoughts,

    The Knicks need a PG, stretch PF, some perimeter shooting, and ultimately a #1 and #2 scoring option.

    Haliburton is a PG with almost the exact profile I look for in players (good playmaker, very high basketball IQ, very team oriented, good outside shot, a perfect fit with RJ and/or Frank). The only thing that’s missing is plus defense, but I haven’t heard anyone say he’s bad.

    Topin is probably way more ready to contribute now because he has an NBA body. He’s also a much better scorer. Maybe he can become a reliable scoring option. But I really worry when I keep reading that he’s a “tweener” (in a negative way as opposed to having versatility) and when other people are saying he’s almost hopeless defensively. I’m also worried about his ability to stretch his 3 point shot out to the NBA line and the kind of fit he’s going to be next to Robinson because they both like to go to the rim. He’s going to need to stretch that shot.

    Personally, I think it’s way easier to find a quality stretch PF via trade or free agency than it is to find a young quality PG. So for me, given all the above, Haliburton would have been the clear preference. But as I said earlier, several teams also passed on Haliburton, including the Spurs. So there may be something I don’t know that scouts have seen that suggests his game won’t translate to the NBA as well. I wish I had seen more college ball.

  199. So who are we going to target in free agency or via trade to be our starting PG since we didn’t draft Haliburton and it has been leaked that they think Frank is an important piece of the future but not the starting PG?

  200. The fit between Obi and Mitch is really the swing “skill” of this draft — if Obi’s 3 pointer is not real, then we have a serious problem. But– if it’s real — big IF – then that plus Obi’s short roll passing could be lethal with Mitch in the dunker spot.

    interesting to see what happens with Knox and Randle now. Maybe Randle moves to backup 4/5 , and Knox plays backup 3? (or both get traded)

  201. I just do not get the Obi hate here at all. If we had traded up that’s one thing. Guy tore up college basketball last year.

  202. Unless they think Topin is not ready to come in and start, I think this seals the deal that Randle is going to be traded. I’ll say this again and again. Randle is better that he showed in NY last year. It was just a horrible fit and situation for him asking to be the #1 option (when he’s more like a 3rd option) and putting him on a court with no space. So if we trade him, we’ll be selling LOW.

  203. Haliburton is a PG with almost the exact profile I look for in players (good playmaker, very high basketball IQ, very team oriented, good outside shot, a perfect fit with RJ and/or Frank). The only thing that’s missing is plus defense, but I haven’t heard anyone say he’s bad.

    I say this as someone who liked Hali a lot and thought he should be the pick at #8 for sure – I don’t think he’s really a true PG, and he’s definitely not a good playmaker by PG standards. Good in the open floor, and he’s a good ball mover in secondary action, but he struggled quite a lot to run PnR in college; he just doesn’t have the athleticism for it, and that issue is only going to be more significant at the next level. I think he can play the 1 in some lineups where the primary halfcourt playmaker is someone else, but I think he’s primarily going to be a 2 in the NBA and I think that lack of primary shot creation skill is why he dropped a bit.

  204. I know this has been said a lot, but I can’t wrap my head around the fact that the Knicks did some great arbitrage there, moved their 1st and 2nd round picks for nothing, only to basically waste that late 1st on someone who in all likelihood would be available for their 2nd round pick, which they promptly threw away. Amazing stuff.

  205. I know this has been said a lot, but I can’t wrap my head around the fact that the Knicks did some great arbitrage there, moved their 1st and 2nd round picks for nothing, only to basically waste that late 1st on someone who in all likelihood would be available for their 2nd round pick, which they promptly threw away. Amazing stuff.

    You might very well be right about Quickley, but if they really liked him, it only takes 1 team to like him as much as you do, and you lose your guy.

    And re: him being available at 33 — that’s all based on groupthink / herding that happens with these mock drafts. What FOs around the league actually thought and what mock draft experts thought was really different this year.

  206. So for the moment, that gives us a roster of

    PG: DSJ/Payton (or free agent TBD)/Quickley/maybe Jared Harper
    SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
    SF: Knox/Iggy/maybe Pinson or Dameyan Dotson (Devon Dotson signed with the Bulls)
    PF: Toppin/Randle
    C: Mitch/Wooten/maybe Taj on a cheaper deal

    That is… not a great roster at the moment.

    quibbling with your positions for a bit…

    i think bullock is a very important player for us. he can shoot and is competent. I’d rather have him out there making life easier for the good prospects than sticking Frank or Knox in there.

    Bullock-Barrett-Toppin-Mitch should be our core lineup. If Toppin‘s outside shooting is real and he can mesh with Mitch better than Randle did, there’s a lot to like there. it gives Barrett what he needs to make a leap, if he can. having him be the primary ballhandler with four offensive threats will be a lot different than what he had to work with last year.

    of course we need a stopgap PG who can shoot to make that happen.

  207. I say this as someone who liked Hali a lot and thought he should be the pick at #8 for sure – I don’t think he’s really a true PG, and he’s definitely not a good playmaker by PG standards.

    If that’s all true, then maybe that’s why they passed. Even if they liked him, they may have felt he wasn’t the right solution for how they want to play.

    I’m guess less interested in having a ball dominating PG running everything because I think if a defense can stop that one guy, the whole offense falls apart. I saw him as very good fit with RJ/Frank because then you have several playmakers on the floor all willing to move the ball. Again, I haven’t seen enough to know though.

  208. Unless they think Topin is not ready to come in and start, I think this seals the deal that Randle is going to be traded.

    I think it’s important to keep in mind that on top of the fact that the overwhelming majority of rookies are bad (from Partnow’s excellent piece yesterday about 1 in 3 rookies is above replacement level and <10% are above average), this class faces some really unique challenges. Normally guys have months to get to know the coaching staff, get in the conditioning program, get on the right diet, play summer league, and just generally adapt to being a professional basketball player. These guys are facing training camp in like 10 days and trying to do all that on the fly, plus they haven't played a real competitive game in like 9 months and it's going to be a super condensed schedule with minimal practices once the season kicks off.

    Expectations should be rock bottom for immediate contributions from this class and even though Toppin is older I do not think it's wise to pencil him in as a starter right away.

  209. I don’t hate the Obi pick, but I’m not hugely into it either. What you’re hoping for is that is offensive production is both real and happens right out of the gate, since he’s 22. And you hope he gets new hips, that Thibs can work some magic, or that Mitch ascends to DPOY status like we know he can because right now he’s a sieve defensively. But his offensive numbers are legitimately good, as is his athleticism (it’s not Amar’e level though, since he can’t really bang at 220). I’m warming up to the pick but it’s not ideal–I would’ve taken Hali or traded down for Kira.

    Quickley is more interesting. I genuinely like him. I think there’s an argument that Quickley always should have been in the Terry, Bane, etc. conversation, since he is a legit 3 and d prospect as a sophomore with some additional ceiling as a secondary shot creator if he really breaks good. But it really wasn’t good asset maximization to pick him at 25 unless the Knicks had some knowledge about where he would’ve went that we don’t. In general, UK prospects are hard to place because they’re playing with a bunch of other elite college kids.

    Trading the 33rd I think is a straight loss, since you should price in various forms of uncertainty regarding a 2nd round pick that is three years out, especially considering that we need real young prospects now. Not a great look. Also I want to see who the Knicks sign to training camp or UDFA deals, if anyone.

    From a process standpoint, it’s mixed. On the one hand the optics look bad, because it just looks like the agents and coaches selected guys on the basis of sheer nepotism. On the other hand, they actually selected genuinely productive college players instead of toolsy guys who are bad at basketball like Mills did. In a vacuum I would give the draft a C /B-, but I can’t help but be worried about what this augurs for free agency–probably a FVV near-max and Christian Wood. Which will then knock us out of an historically good draft with three really good guards in the top 10 (Cunningham, Suggs, Green). Let’s hope we keep our powder dry for one more year at least.

  210. Yeah trading the 33rd pick for a second rounder in 2023 is a bit of a head scratcher. But even if its not the “double draft” all we really did was push a second round pick down the road a bit. I guess it could be a worse second round pick. But that year we will have 2 first rounders and now 2 second rounders.

    If we project that the Knicks are better by 2023, then our first round picks may not be lottery picks. With 4 total picks you have the ability to trade up (like we did yesterday). So maybe the thinking is, hey, in 2023 we’re going to be better so our first round pick won’t be good. Doncic will be in his prime so the Dallas pick won’t be good. But that draft could have really good players even in the teens, so having another second rounder could help us move up and add a good player to a team on the rise.

    Plus now we have RJ, Mitch, Frank, Knox, Toppin, Quickly. That’s 6 young players that we will want to get significant PT this year. Then you throw in Iggy, DSJ, Wooten, etc….plus a few vets. There’s not a lot of spots left. G-League may not happen too.

    I’m just encouraged that we were able to turn 27 and 38th into 25 and 33 without giving up anything. We’ve never done something slick like that.

    I’m also encouraged that we drafted 2 guys based on their output and stats, not based on “potential” and they both seem like high character dudes.

    I think we will go after FVV hard. I know some people won’t like that move but if we do get him our starting line up could be:

    FVV
    Quickly
    RJ
    Toppin
    Mitch

    That ain’t setting the league on fire but its young line up with lots of room to grow and on paper could theoretically make a lot of sense together.

  211. Here’s what I know about the Knicks right now. Project them as a 20 win team in a 72 game season. The opening line in a game vs the Nets will have the Knicks as 30 point underdogs.

  212. if you think the moves are fine i’m pretty sure you’ll be in for a rude awakening….

    the first pick is defensible but indicative of where they are in terms of talent evaluation…. the fact that they were about to trade up for obi is most concerning…. the second pick is not…. and trading out of the 33 is indefensible…. we are terrible and saying that we don’t need extra stabs at good players now is dumfounding…..

    watching decent players goto competent front offices is super frustrating when we basically give away our picks for nothing…. it’s indicative of a very bad process that they don’t know how bad our guys are… philly has championship aspirations and they have more respect for roster spots than we do….

    this is right in the neighborhood of the frank and knox drafts in terms of how telling it was that our front office is terrible…. and we are about to do more terrible things too…..

  213. quibbling with your positions for a bit…

    It was late at night and I wasn’t thinking too hard about exact positions and the depth chart. I agree that starting RJ and Bullock at the two wing positions makes a lot of sense. Knox also should really be a power forward at this point, which will be tough to accomplish if Randle isn’t traded. And DSJ will likely not start unless we let go of Payton and also don’t sign a vet PG, whether it’s at the high end of the market (FVV) or the budget rack (Augustin).

    One thing in favor of the pick: Toppin is probably the early favorite for Rookie of the Year, and he’s going to be fun to watch on the court, with a more fundamentally dynamic game than RJ’s. That might lessen any pressure Rose would feel to trade for Westbrook, or to overpay for FVV. (Though I would not hate the latter.) If Thibs thinks a stopgap PG can do what’s necessary to maximize the growth for Obi, RJ, Mitch, and the other younger players, we may indeed keep our powder dry.

  214. thenamestsam: Expectations should be rock bottom for immediate contributions from this class and even though Toppin is older I do not think it’s wise to pencil him in as a starter right away.

    I understand everything you are saying, but these days most rookies are younger. Topin specifically seems to have an NBA ready body and is going to a terrible team like the Knicks. So if anyone can make the jump it would be him. If not, then maybe they’ll continue with the awkward Robinson/Randle combination for awhile and trade him later.

  215. Wasserman:

    Told a scout Tuesday night that one team in the 20s was gonna take Immanuel Quickley

    -43% 3PT
    -Led NCAA in FT% at 92% on 5.2 attempts
    -Outstanding floater touch, 30-of-67 (44.8%)

  216. I really don’t get how an analytically-oriented board here doesn’t agree with the logic of trading the #33 pick in this year’s extremely weak draft for a future 2nd rounder in what is likely to be a much stronger draft. The odds that the player we would have selected would have more value in a trade package two months from now than that future 2nd have to be like 10% or lower. The most likely 5-year outcomes for a guy drafted at #33 are vet’s minimum deep bench guy or out of the league. If the FO did not see a player that they felt would swing the odds in their favor, then kicking the can down the road to a deeper draft makes perfect sense.

  217. What rude awakening am I in for? That the Knicks aren’t going to be a playoff team?

    We didn’t trade up, though. That’s the thing. So to be negative about something that was reported as a possibility but didn’t actually happen. Seems like an overreach to me.

    And everyone just assumes Quickley would have been there at 33. But what if he wasn’t and that was their guy?

    People are acting like drafting the SEC Player of the year who shot 42 percent from 3 for one of the best college programs in the country is an overreach at 25? Yeah, sounds like people choosing to be negative.

  218. Could we have gotten Quickly at 33? Most likely… But, if we did that, then CAA super-client John Calapari would have one less player get drafted in the first round! How is he going to keep recruiting one and done players if he can’t show them Kentucky is the best path to the NBA? I admire Rose’s dedication to his clients!

  219. Z-Man…its the draft. Since we didn’t pick the pet projects some people wanted, people will just reflexively react negatively to whatever we did cause LOL Knicks.

    For the record, I was not really wanting to pick Toppin. I thought Vassell or Okoro or Hali were the way to go. But like we got a shooter who shoots as well as Vassell or Hali with Quickley and we got a player at 8 that was mocked to go higher and also can score!

  220. djphan:
    if you think the moves are fine i’m pretty sure you’ll be in for a rude awakening….

    the first pick is defensible but indicative of where they are in terms of talent evaluation…. the fact that they were about to trade up for obi is most concerning…. the second pick is not…. and trading out of the 33 is indefensible…. we are terrible and saying that we don’t need extra stabs at good players now is dumfounding…..

    watching decent players goto competent front offices is super frustrating when we basically give away our picks for nothing…. it’s indicative of a very bad process that they don’t know how bad our guys are… philly has championship aspirations and they have more respect for roster spots than we do….

    this is right in the neighborhood of the frank and knox drafts in terms of how telling it was that our front office is terrible…. and we are about to do more terrible things too…..

    So for the record, what would you have done?

  221. I expect them to go hard after FVV too. Isn’t Wood redundant at this point with Toppin and Mitch in the fold? Quickley will not start so you are looking at:
    FVV
    Bullock
    RJ
    Toppin
    Mitch

  222. this is a thin-slice thing for me. if you don’t know how to maximize your assets, I’m ok jumping to the conclusion that you’re not going to be good at this job.

    Same here. The Rose era will likely be mediocre at best. Knicks’ front office is still light years behind other teams like Memphis, Denver, and Dallas. Overdrafting Quickley and trading the 33rd pick for a future pick that will very likely be lower was very dumb. Still no guarantee the 2023 draft will be the ‘double draft’; it’s insane for Rose to make that trade without getting another asset.

    It’s going to take more than nepotism and Kentucky connections to build this team into a contender. Not sure Rose has it in him.

  223. Yeah, there’s no point to a Wood signing now. In addition to a PG of some kind, we could probably use another wing, unless you believe Iggy is read to be part of the rotation. Is there anyone on the market who can shoot and wouldn’t cost a ton? (Or, at least, would cost a lot on a short deal?)

  224. @Z-Man:

    Here’s the idea, maybe: First, the draft was “extremely weak” because the top-level prospects were eh. But this draft has pretty good depth for role players and borderline starters, I think. It’s best not to cite the perceived “weakness” of the draft for this argument, especially when that weakness is indexed to the quality of the top level players rather than 1-60.

    Second, there were a range of players that we know are good picks–perhaps even great picks (depending on your views regarding them)–at #33 right now. Some examples: Xavier Tillman, Devon Dotson, Jahmi’us Ramsey, Tyler Bey, Paul Reed, Tre Jones. These players are all good-to-great picks at 33 in pretty much any draft. It not obvious whether the, say, #40 pick in 2023 is a better expected value right now than the #33 pick in 2020 after you price in the fact that the undervalued prospects might be gone by, say, #40 in 2023 and the possibility that the undervalued prospects there are aren’t as good as Tillman, Dotson, etc. In fact, I’d be inclined to argue that the EV on the 2023 pick is worse, double draft or no.

    We know now that there were some undervalued prospects–some even borderline top 10 material like Tillman or Dotson–that we passed on for a punt. But we don’t know, at #40 or #33 or #50 or wherever we pick in 2023 who will be available and that uncertainty lowers the expected value of the pick for the reasons cited above.

    Coupled with the fact that we didn’t buy a pick, it communicates to me that the FO threw up their hands after VCJ was off the board and just made some half-assed trade rather than picking a guy that wasn’t on their short list. That’s bad process, and I think it’s also likely to be bad results, even if the difference is ultimately marginal.

  225. the clippers trade was us giving them a dime for nickel. “double draft” has no value. time has value, and being at the top of the round had value. we sacrificed both and didn’t get compensated for it.

    that trade needed to be 2 future seconds for it to make sense.

  226. Z-man:
    I really don’t get how an analytically-oriented board here doesn’t agree with the logic of trading the #33 pick in this year’s extremely weak draft for a future 2nd rounder in what is likely to be a much stronger draft. The odds that the player we would have selected would have more value in a trade package two months from now than that future 2nd have to be like 10% or lower. The most likely 5-year outcomes for a guy drafted at #33 are vet’s minimum deep bench guy or out of the league. If the FO did not see a player that they felt would swing the odds in their favor, then kicking the can down the road to a deeper draft makes perfect sense.

    If all you want to do is preserve trade value you’re probably right. All picks lose a lot of value in trades as soon as they’re made (driving the new car off the lot). But I think you’re really overrating the difference the drafts make. This draft was weak at the top but totally reasonable in depth from everything I’ve read (can’t say I have any personal opinion on it) and the way talent curves work (very few guys at the top, lots of guys lower down) it’s not obvious that the “double draft” (if it ends up being that year which isn’t certain) will have a big impact on the quality of guys available in the second round.

    If there’s nobody they liked then sure, kicking the can down the road is fine, but for giving up 33 you should get more than a generic 2nd rounder (albeit from a very bad team) that’s 3 years out. It’s just a low price.

  227. djphan:
    if you think the moves are fine i’m pretty sure you’ll be in for a rude awakening….

    the first pick is defensible but indicative of where they are in terms of talent evaluation…. the fact that they were about to trade up for obi is most concerning…. the second pick is not…. and trading out of the 33 is indefensible…. we are terrible and saying that we don’t need extra stabs at good players now is dumfounding…..

    watching decent players goto competent front offices is super frustrating when we basically give away our picks for nothing…. it’s indicative of a very bad process that they don’t know how bad our guys are… philly has championship aspirations and they have more respect for roster spots than we do….

    this is right in the neighborhood of the frank and knox drafts in terms of how telling it was that our front office is terrible…. and we are about to do more terrible things too…..

    well said.

  228. like in every draft…. my board is posted…. so what i think about any particular draft is an open book…..

  229. Z-man:
    I really don’t get how an analytically-oriented board here doesn’t agree with the logic of trading the #33 pick in this year’s extremely weak draft for a future 2nd rounder in what is likely to be a much stronger draft. The odds that the player we would have selected would have more value in a trade package two months from now than that future 2nd have to be like 10% or lower. The most likely 5-year outcomes for a guy drafted at #33 are vet’s minimum deep bench guy or out of the league. If the FO did not see a player that they felt would swing the odds in their favor, then kicking the can down the road to a deeper draft makes perfect sense.

    Plus 1.

    The Knicks need a lot of things, but they don’t need another G league player. Better to take a look at a stronger draft in the future.

    I’m not sure of all their thinking yesterday, but I think it came out OK unless Haliburton turns out to be the better pro than Topin.

  230. Dink: Same here. The Rose era will likely be mediocre at best. Knicks’ front office is still light years behind other teams like Memphis, Denver, and Dallas. Overdrafting Quickley and trading the 33rd pick for a future pick that will very likely be lower was very dumb. Still no guarantee the 2023 draft will be the ‘double draft’; it’s insane for Rose to make that trade without getting another asset.

    It’s going to take more than nepotism and Kentucky connections to build this team into a contender. Not sure Rose has it in him.

    This is an incredibly jaded and logically flawed take. I already pointed out the fallicy of the traded #33 pick…quality of draft and uncertainty matters in asset valuation for trades. As to Kentucky, more good NBA players have come through Kentucky than any other college, why is is a bad idea in and of itself to have an inside track with those players? As to CAA, they are the most prominent agency in the NBA, why is it a bad thing in and of itself to have connections there?

    Regardless of these issues, the proof is in the pudding. Toppin should be judged by how he performs relative to his draft slot, Quickley is a late first round flier in what is by all accounts a weak draft, and the #33 pick is most likely to land a bust or vet’s min player easily replaced on the waiver wire and we already have more prospects than roster spots.

  231. The Toppin pick is a C- for me. I would’ve preferred both Vassell and Haliburton but they both have their flaws too so it’s not a disaster. He’s pretty much a lock to not be a Frank/Knox level bust so that’s nice, but I already know we’re going to overpay him when that time comes. He fits the mold perfectly.

    The Quickley pick is a D-. Here’s a spreadsheet that shows how mock drafts, analyst big boards, and statistical models ranked every player in the draft. Spoiler alert: the highest Quickley is ranked by any of the three is 34th. Multiple models/mocks/big boards have him outside the top 60. If your 2PT% as a 20 year old in the SEC is .409 you are not very likely to be good. Taking him over Terry, who is just as good of a shooter and can also do other things, is completely indefensible.

    Lastly, if you logged on this morning in order to defend one of the worst teams in the NBA trading the 33rd pick in the draft for a different second rounder two years down the road, please reevaluate some of your life choices.

  232. If I’m an NBA free agent and look at this mess of a team I am not signing my career away with the Knicks. When is spring training?

  233. For all the posters looking at our team now, the Knicks are far from done. We have a ton of cap space, some players that might be on the block, and still need a starting PG. Let’s debate the team when it’s set. Right now I think the debate is about the quality of our draft selections and how they fit with RJ/Robinson/Frank/Knox who are all likely to stay. (maybe Knox is out, but I actually heard some very positive things yesterday about his off season development).

  234. Got very fired up late last night about how badly we did. I did not wake up with a sunnier take. Don’t want to rehash what all the dissenters have said since most of it is spot on but I am just really disappointed.

    I don’t love the Toppin pick. He’s a one dimensional player. They cleared the bar of drafting a guy who actually has decent TS% projection, I grant them that. But he looks like an unathletic tweener who you will have to hide half the time and quite frankly more like a 3/4 than a 4/5 at that. I know people think he will be dominant offensively because that’s what he was in college but I really struggle to believe that looking at his age. I think he tops out as a capable 2nd or 3rd guy off the bench on a good team.

    Quickley I had not heard mentioned in a single draft prep. There is no way he wouldn’t have been there at 33. We need good players.

    And the refusal to draft any true ballhandlers tells me Russ is coming. Which sucks.

    As always, I hope my doomcasting is wrong.

  235. with all due respect, Z-Man, I think the flaw in your logic is your assumption that the 2023 draft is going to be some spectacular bonanza. the standard deviation on projecting second rounds 3 years away is as high as it gets. the rest of us just see it as a random pick in 3 years and don’t assign extra value to it bc it’s in 2023.

    the cost to move into the high second round has been clearly defined over the years. this pick was worth either two seconds or a future late first. the fact that leon rose either didn’t know that or didn’t care about that is of great concern.

  236. thenamestsam: If there’s nobody they liked then sure, kicking the can down the road is fine, but for giving up 33 you should get more than a generic 2nd rounder (albeit from a very bad team) that’s 3 years out. It’s just a low price.

    It’s the price that was available. The only choices were to either exercise the pick or take the best deal available. Let’s not forget that we moved up from #39 to #33 at no cost. Maybe the #39 pick doesn’t get you that future 2nd.

    And it doesn’t really matter that the 2023 2nd rounder is likely to be a lower pick in a roughly equal draft. For the next 3 years it is highly likely that the perceived value of that pick will be higher than the actual value, and more valuable than whoever we would have picked will be. You yourself said “If all you want to do is preserve trade value you’re probably right.” Isn’t that what asset management is all about?

    And let’s not forget that buried in the transactions, we landed the Arvidas Sabonis of Serbia…

  237. Early Bird: You do when we’re the team with the most money

    Only if you suck, are chasing the money and need to find a sucker. (See Joakim Noah)

  238. Hubert:
    with all due respect, Z-Man, I think the flaw in your logic is your assumption that the 2023 draft is going to be some spectacular bonanza. the standard deviation on projecting second rounds 3 years away is as high as it gets. the rest of us just see it as a random pick in 3 years and don’t assign extra value to it bc it’s in 2023.

    the cost to move into the high second round has been clearly defined over the years.this pick was worth either two seconds or a future late first. the fact that leon rose either didn’t know that or didn’t care about that is of great concern.

    Unsurprisingly, this is complete conjecture. Please show me some evidence of where a current second rounder was traded for a future late first rounder.

    And again, it’s perceived value, not actual value. Whoever we picked is 90% or more not going to be an asset at all in a couple of months, and that is statistically verifiable. The 2023 pick absolutely, positively will, there’s simply no way to dispute that. It’s okay to disagree but to make sweeping negative generalizations based on it is a cheap shot.

    Honestly, this is the same twisted logic that people spouted when panning the “dumping” of the great WHG for 2 future second rounders, the whole “we have him locked up for years on a great deal!” outrage.

  239. if Obi’s offensive game transfers directly into the NBA, our lineup doesn’t suck at all outside the PG position.

    and it’s reasonable to expect significant improvement from Barrett in year 2.

    there’s at least something to look forward to.

  240. Hubert:
    if Obi’s offensive game transfers directly into the NBA, our lineup doesn’t suck at all outside the PG position.

    and it’s reasonable to expect significant improvement from Barrett in year 2.

    there’s at least something to look forward to.

    I’m not sure why people are so down at this point. Like I just said, we have a ton of cap space and some players that may be on the block. This team is far from set. Let’s see what they do next before we trash management and the team.

  241. I think something else driving my feelings is that it was pretty dumb that we were drafting 8 this year. We had no reason not to be closer to the top of this draft and I would be a million times happier with Hayes or Okongwu.

  242. vincoug: Arguably, Chicago, Charlotte, Cleveland, and Sacramento. Not sure about anyone else.

    Sacramento drafted Haliburton. Charlotte got LaMelo.
    I’ll grant you that Cleveland and Chicago are in the hunt for worst lineup.

  243. Deeefense: I’m not sure why people are so down at this point.

    It’s the worst FA class in a decade and, as I said, none are going to play for this team unless they are in it just for the money.

  244. The Quickley pick is a D-. Here’s a spreadsheet that shows how mock drafts, analyst big boards, and statistical models ranked every player in the draft.

    There is just a ton of herding / groupthink in these mock drafts. So showing me how x number of mock drafts all say X doesn’t really mean much to me to be honest.

    What does mean something to me is how much interest teams show in players – ie. how much of a team’s limited time have they actually spent with prospects?

    Immanuel Quickley’s trainer Jide Sodipo has told me that the Kentucky guard has talked to almost all NBA teams except the Blazers.

    And of the 29 teams, he has already interviewed twice with the Knicks, Lakers, Thunder, Jazz, Bucks, Pistons, and Heat.

    So of those he interviewed twice with, Lakers and Jazz had picks between 25 and 33. Mavericks took a similar player at 31 in Tyrell Terry. But basically everyone other than the team with both Dame and CJ McCollum had interest in him.

    EDIT- that second quote is from @alderalmo (from Empire sports) twitter account. just wanted to attribute it.

  245. It’s the price that was available. The only choices were to either exercise the pick or take the best deal available.

    C’mon, this logic is silly. We all agree there’s some price below which you just take whoever is highest on your board even if you don’t love that guy, you can’t say “This trade is good because it’s the best they could do”. Ultimately the trade is either good or it isn’t on the merits .

    And it doesn’t really matter that the 2023 2nd rounder is likely to be a lower pick in a roughly equal draft. For the next 3 years it is highly likely that the perceived value of that pick will be higher than the actual value, and more valuable than whoever we would have picked will be. You yourself said “If all you want to do is preserve trade value you’re probably right.” Isn’t that what asset management is all about?

    I mean “asset management” is a means, not an end, but this is an interesting philosophical argument. It seems like you’re kind of arguing that making any draft pick (maybe outside of slam dunks) is for suckers and the smart move is always to roll it over into a future equivalent draft pick which will hold its value better. I mean why would we ever make that pick in 2023 when it’s extremely likely that whoever we pick will be a known benchwarmer within a couple months. We could probably get a 2026 2nd rounder instead if we play our cards right. This is kind of an argument for using draft picks only as trade pieces.

  246. Doesn’t Quickley look a lot like Malik Monk on paper? That’s a fine pick at #25, I suppose, but Monk hasn’t exactly thrived in this league as an undersized 2. And Monk’s profile was a bit better coming out of the same role for the same organization.

  247. I should add that on top of not really liking the picks themselves, they both evince a preference for guys who can contribute immediately. That’s obviously not inherently a bad thing but it definitely makes me feel worse about the Westbrook situation.

    The best I can do as far as optimism goes is I do think it’ll be legitimately fun to have Toppin, because unlike everyone else we’ve drafted with first rounders in the last 5 years or so I don’t think “is this guy an NBA player” will be much of a question.

  248. We currently have 11 NBA contracts (including the picks and Pinson, assuming we only bring back Bullock) and 2 two-way contracts.

    We have 4 open roster slots.

    We need the following:

    Backup C
    PG
    Wing

    Maybe we bring back Dotson now?

  249. Monk was the better all around scorer and player, but Quickley is a better three point shooter, rebounder, and defender. I think Quickley also knows his role a lot better than Malik, and is not an inveterate chucker (but his 2pt% outside of floaters is ghastly–please gain 20 pounds of muscle!) so he might have more staying power than Monk, since Quickley fulfills a high-demand NBA role if he hits, and Monk would not, unless he really hit, which he didn’t do.

  250. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: It’s the worst FA class in a decade and, as I said, none are going to play for this team unless they are in it just for the money.

    This has been a chronic problem partly due to our style of rebuild and incompetence, but we have new guys in charge here now. We aren’t going to attract stars yet, but we may still get a few good players on fair contracts as a step towards better things.

  251. Deeefense: We aren’t going to attract stars yet, but we may still get a few good players on fair contracts as a step towards better things.

    Isn’t that EXACTLY what we said about last year’s free agent class? This is exactly what running on a treadmill is. We’re going nowhere. When is this team going to move forward?

  252. thenamestsam: I mean “asset management” is a means, not an end, but this is an interesting philosophical argument. It seems like you’re kind of arguing that making any draft pick (maybe outside of slam dunks) is for suckers and the smart move is always to roll it over into a future equivalent draft pick which will hold its value better. I mean why would we ever make that pick in 2023 when it’s extremely likely that whoever we pick will be a known benchwarmer within a couple months. We could probably get a 2026 2nd rounder instead if we play our cards right. This is kind of an argument for using draft picks only as trade pieces.

    god bless you for having the patience to explain it so well!

  253. Early Bird: Maybe we bring back Dotson now?

    If I were Dotson, I wouldn’t even pick up the phone after how this team buried him. This is a great escape from Alcatraz.

  254. i truly appreciate everyone who wants to look on the bright side, but Knicks’ Front Office Apologists are literally winless since the blog was created. and i’m not saying i haven’t been one sometimes. i like me some wait and see. but when you see, you see. don’t close your eyes.

  255. Isn’t that EXACTLY what we said about last year’s free agent class? This is exactly what running on a treadmill is. We’re going nowhere. When is this team going to move forward?

    If your “rebuild” regularly results in picking 8th, you are quite simply going to get left behind by teams who don’t feel the need to “field a competitive team” or whatever. People may not like it but a lot of our annual shittiness is as simple as that. Things around here would look a lot different if we had Fox instead of Ntilikina and JJJ instead of Knox.

  256. Toppin and Quickley look fine if you hold them up separate from the rest of the world. Weird, but intriguing. My problem is when you hold them up with the rest of the world as backdrop. Quickley seems like a poor man’s version of Haliburton, who we could have gotten with 8 — I think Tyrese is a likely solid starter as a hybrid 1-2 on the right team, while I have a hard time seeing Quickley topping out as anything more than a potentially useful bench player. And Toppin seems like Randle 2.0, who we already have, albeit for more money. Maybe Randle is out the door, but these moves don’t seem to actually improve the team in any meaningful way — more like shuffling the deck chairs. I hope I’m wrong, but that’s my view this morning.

  257. The players we drafted don’t seem awful, but the process is sending up huge red flags. Just like last year we seemed to focus on one guy and ignored better prospects who were available to draft a kid represented by the team President’s son. Then we took a Kentucky guy-who may be good-but who we almost certainly have taken with the pick we decided would be better used 3 years from now and also drafted a good/decent prospect instead. Someone like Malachi Flynn or Devon Dotson would have been good risks to fill a gaping hole in our roster, or you could have taken guys like Bane or Tillman, who might be lower upside guys but are decent bets to be useful NBA players, something the Knicks have a glaring lack of.

  258. Frank:
    TBH – Frank + Quickley + RJ + Obi + Mitch is at least interesting.RJ will be a good defender, and Frank+Quickley has the possibility of being very tough at the point of attack.Mitch can probably clean up some of the Obi stuff. I just hope Frank’s shot has continued to improve.

    yeah as a jumping off point, i’m into this. it’s an intriguing combo of O and D.

  259. Doesn’t Quickley look a lot like Malik Monk on paper? That’s a fine pick at #25, I suppose, but Monk hasn’t exactly thrived in this league as an undersized 2. And Monk’s profile was a bit better coming out of the same role for the same organization.

    Monk was never thought of as a good defender whereas by all reports, Quickley is pretty good on that end.

    In general I agree with the group here although am a little more optimistic about the draft picks we actually made. Dumping that #33 pick really seems a strange move though –

    One other possibility is that we need roster spots for a big trade that is going to happen – ie. we take a bunch of crapola in order to secure future picks? That might be backed up by the fact that in spite of our obvious need for talent and presumably deep connections around the league and with agents, we don’t have a single UDFA as far as I know?

    I assume if you make a draft pick then that person needs one of the 15 roster spots or else you relinquish rights?

  260. One other quasi-defense of trading out of the 33rd pick: training camp is going to be about a month this year, and it’s possible there won’t be a G-League season. So taking a prospect now who won’t be part of the rotation and may gather dust over the course of a long and strange year isn’t ideal from a player development standpoint.

  261. Toppin dominating the NCAA is better than Toppin NOT dominating the NCAA, but the players that dominate both the NCAA and the NBA are few and far between. There are the Anthony Davises and the Tim Duncans, but most of the guys that dominated in college are older dudes who had much less impact in the pros: Frank Kaminsky, Doug McDermott, Frank Mason, Jimmer Fredette, and Tyler Hansbrough, among others.

  262. Frank: I assume if you make a draft pick then that person needs one of the 15 roster spots or else you relinquish rights?

    You still have to sign the player you draft, so you have some time to cut other players. Not 100% sure how this works though. If we did go over the roster cap, we wouldn’t forfeit the rights. Also, the NBA expands roster size to 20 for training camp most years. I assume this takes effect within the time frame to make it a non-issue but again don’t know for sure.

  263. So Far, so Good.

    I get the feeling that many here expected from LRose to fuck it up BIG TIME by trading up for LaMelo/doing other obvious dumb moves so they were ready to trash him hard.
    Since nothing like these happened they’re trying really hard to see things negatively.

    I feel good so far.

  264. thenamestsam: C’mon, this logic is silly. We all agree there’s some price below which you just take whoever is highest on your board even if you don’t love that guy, you can’t say “This trade is good because it’s the best they could do”. Ultimately the trade is either good or it isn’t on the merits .

    What’s silly is that you just said yourself that I was “probably right” in terms of asset management. So the trade was fine on its merits, in your own words. I don’t get your attempts to spin what I said into “just burn assets for whatever you can get, regardless of what that is.” That’s incredibly disingenuous, as is idea that “you should have gotten more than what you got” without any evidence that a better deal was out there. Just because it’s not what you would have done doesn’t make it a bad move, especially when you yourself said that it is arguably trading a lesser asset for a greater one.

    thenamestsam: It seems like you’re kind of arguing that making any draft pick (maybe outside of slam dunks) is for suckers and the smart move is always to roll it over into a future equivalent draft pick which will hold its value better.

    This is an intellectually dishonest reductio ad absurdum take. Clearly I am referring to this specific instance only. However, in general, I believe that if you want to improve your team, you should continually make transactions that result in assets with higher value coming in and assets with lower value going out. In this case, you can make an argument either way. What I object to is making a sweeping generalization about Rose et. al. because you think that taking someone at #33 was some kind of no-brainer. Again, you yourself said that it probably resulted in a more valuable asset coming in than going out.

  265. Frank Kaminsky, Doug McDermott, Frank Mason, Jimmer Fredette, and Tyler Hansbrough, among others.

    The obvious difference here is that Obi is an electric athlete whereas all those you mentioned are not.
    It’s a bit of a weird situation with him growing 5 inches his senior year and already knowing he would be academically ineligible his freshman year. He was already a draftable player according to reports even before this season.

    I mean, I can make a plausible argument that if his growth spurt had happened 1 year earlier, he probably would not have been playing at Ossining high school his senior year. he would’ve ended up at Oak Hill or one of those prep schools and getting recruited right out of college – at Oak Hill they would’ve made sure he was made academically eligible. Instead he had to take a prep year after high school, then spend another year as academically ineligible. I think I would be more worried if he didn’t dominate after his redshirt year, but he did – TS 69 on 25 usage, 21.5/8.5/2.8 per 36.

  266. ***Quickly could be Monk. He could also be Tyler Herro or Jamal Murray. ***

    Maybe. But both Herro and Murray were younger, bigger, and better coming out of college.

  267. The Anthony Davis story is pretty relevant in that his growth spurt happened a year+ earlier than Obi’s:

    To understand what makes Davis so good, it’s helpful to know this bit of trivia — Davis grew from 6’2″ to 6’10” between his sophomore and senior years in high school. He went from a lightly-recruited guard who had one scholarship offer (from Cleveland State) to the best high school player in the country.

    As a result of that unusual growth spurt, Davis has the fundamentals and movements of the guard within the body of a center (he’s now 6’11” and still growing). He’s the ultimate hybrid.

  268. Quickly could be Monk. He could also be Tyler Herro or Jamal Murray. That’s why it’s a draft.

    “He could be a guy he profiles very similarly to, but he could also be guys who profiled much better than him” is not a very compelling argument

  269. ***Quickly could be Monk. He could also be Tyler Herro or Jamal Murray. ***

    Maybe. But both Herro and Murray were younger, bigger, and better coming out of college.

    I think a better shooting Langston Galloway would be a reasonable expectation for him – and a huge win at a #25 pick.

  270. Hubert:
    i truly appreciate everyone who wants to look on the bright side, but Knicks’ Front Office Apologists are literally winless since the blog was created. and i’m not saying i haven’t been one sometimes. i like me some wait and see. but when you see, you see. don’t close your eyes.

    Waiting and seeing is not being an apologist. It’s waiting and seeing. If you think Toppin was a bad pick in line with prior regimes, that’s fair. Same with Quickley. Same with the #33 pick trade. And how easily we ignore that they didn’t bid against themselves and trade up to get Toppin at #5, or LaMelo at #3, or that they moved up several spots with both picks without giving up anything. Or that we haven’t lurched at Westbrook or CP3. Does that sound like prior regimes?

    I’d rather wait and see.

  271. thenoblefacehumper: “He could be a guy he profiles very similarly to, but he could also be guys who profiled much better than him” is not a very compelling argument

    Malik Monk would be a well above average outcome for a #25 pick.

  272. Z-man: you think Toppin was a bad pick in line with prior regimes, that’s fair.

    I don’t. He’s probably going to be the best lottery pick we’ve made since Porzingis (not saying much).

    But it’s not about Obi Toppin. It’s about what last night reveals about the thought process at the Garden. So far, it’s pretty damn bleak.

    You can hit on a good player with a bad process.

  273. Malik Monk would be a well above average outcome for a #25 pick.

    Malik Monk also had a much better profile than Quickley in college. I’m sure there are examples here and there but it’s very hard to find guards with Quickley’s ghastly 2PT% who went on to have long NBA careers.

  274. Quicley has a huge wingspan, so I don’t worry too much about him being undersized, but he needs to bulk up and learn to finish at the rim, or he has to learn to play like Duncan Robinson.

  275. This is a interesting tidbit from Berman (emphasis mine):

    It shows how difficult teams view integrating the rookie class with no summer league or pre-camp scrimmages and perhaps no G League season. Training camp begins Dec. 1.

    Still no reason to do a bad deal on the draft pick but interesting nonetheless.

    I am very suspicious that there was $$$ coming back from LAC and that Dolan doesn’t want that to be public knowledge until he can news-dump it.

  276. Z-man, I think you’re making more of a totally minor disagreement over an extremely minor transaction than is necessary. Nobody is trying to “spin” what you’re saying or anything like that. You came in asking why the board wasn’t impressed by trading #33 for 3 year out 2nd round pick. I made my case that the difference in the drafts is probably very minor and I think it’s pretty clear that historically the price for #33 would be higher than what we got in return. Obviously I have no idea if a better deal is out there but if you make a deal and get back less than is customary I don’t see why you’d expect people be to be impressed by that. I haven’t made anything even approaching a sweeping generalization about Rose based on that, so maybe you have my comments mixed up with someone elses, but I just think it’s a mediocre return for #33. Anyway I’m not willing to take the tone to the place it seems like you want to go so I’m going to disengage on this topic.

  277. thenoblefacehumper: Malik Monk also had a much better profile than Quickley in college. I’m sure there are examples here and there but it’s very hard to find guards with Quickley’s ghastly 2PT% who went on to have long NBA careers.

    I wonder how much of that is relevant in the new NBA where 2pt% for guards is far less important than 3pt% and FTr-FT%. He gets to the line at a good rate and hits 90% from there. He hits 42% of his 3’s on high volume. He has excellent length for his height and is known as an above-average defender. I don’t get why we would focus on one negative when there are lots of positives.

  278. Quickley’s ghastly 2 point percentage are the result of his inabiltiy to finish at the rim, but he was able to get there, which shows he has at least some skill/athleticism. Off the top of my head guy who got to the rim but couldn’t finish in college who has succeeded in the NBA is Fred Van Vleet (who still can’t finish at the rim).

  279. DRed:
    Quickley’s ghastly 2 point percentage are the result of his inabiltiy to finish at the rim, but he was able to get there, which shows he has at least some skill/athleticism.Off the top of my head guy who got to the rim but couldn’t finish in college who has succeeded in the NBA is Fred Van Vleet (who still can’t finish at the rim). Fred had 2 seasons in college where he made sub 40% of his 2pt attempts.

  280. The Knicks need a lot of things, but they don’t need another G league player

    You mean like Christian Wood, who is about to get paid up to $18 mil a year for his services?

    Frank Kaminsky, Doug McDermott, Frank Mason, Jimmer Fredette, and Tyler Hansbrough, among others.

    In most cases, I would agree with this sentiment, but these guys are all much less athletic than Toppin, who most draftniks consider to be an elite athlete.

  281. Hubert: hahaha

    fucking leon has as much brodie in him as he does gettelman. it’s not what you want.

    It’s another BVW situation where a snake oil salesman sport agent managed to worm his way into an incompetent NYC franchise’s front office and filled it with his crony clients and friends. But this time we won’t have a Steve Cohen to come and bail us out since Dolan is like Jeff Wilpon without debt.

  282. donovan mitchell was another although his problem was more shot selection than ability to finish…. terry rozier is also another… and he’s basically barely made it over the mendoza line to keep himself playable throughout his career…

    other than that… the pickings are slim….

  283. Z-man: That’s incredibly disingenuous, as is idea that “you should have gotten more than what you got” without any evidence that a better deal was out there

    Two trades that happened right after we kicked 33 to the curb:

    Sacramento got 2 second round picks for 35
    Orlando got two 2nd round picks for 45

  284. trying to generate some optimism but largely failing. toppin has some spectacular traits. he looks like a mix between tatum and lma out there but he’s shooting 3s and doing dunk contest things in game. but i am so sure he will suck defensively and that his handle will prevent him from being a real threat off the bounce, that you’ll mostly just end up with a talented player who dunks a lot. if he hits 3s that’s enough to mostly be useful even if the D sucks. but even in that case you might have a guy that’s a liability in a playoff series. it’s just very hard to be the sort of tweener-big toppin is — even an elite version of one — and end up a really useful player. maybe i’m overdoing how bad his D looks to me.

  285. thenamestsam: You came in asking why the board wasn’t impressed by trading #33 for 3 year out 2nd round pick.

    I was wondering why the board was overreacting negatively to it. No where did I say that anyone should be “impressed” by it. As you said, it’s an extremely minor transaction. And as I said, there will be plenty of legit reasons to criticize Rose et.al. going forward, but this wasn’t one of them.

    As to my tone, it just seems that you are all over the place with your arguments, and what’s bugging me about it is that you a) admitted to agreeing with me, and b) you make hypothetical cases that have no real basis in fact. For example, where is the evidence for your point (and Hubert’s) that:

    thenamestsam: I think it’s pretty clear that historically the price for #33 would be higher than what we got in return…but if you make a deal and get back less than is customary… I just think it’s a mediocre return for #33

    It’s not fair to look at this (or any) transaction in a vacuum…you have to consider that the trade was made just a few minutes before the pick had to be made, not days, or even hours, in advance. And it was made on the heels of inexplicably good deals that significantly improved draft positions for two picks without costing anything. Hubert made the ridiculous assertion that the #33 pick should have returned a late first rounder or a couple of future seconds. Your assertion is more vague, but when you say “what is customary” without context it just doesn’t hold water even more generally.

  286. Malik Monk has short arms, so if arm length is your thing, there IS that I suppose.

    Also, to inject a human interest story into this draft, I remember the 1995 draft and my realization that I was older than all the top picks that year. It was a weird feeling. But this draft was the first draft that all the top picks were younger than my children. (I can’t wait for the 2045 draft, when all the top picks are younger than my grand children). Life through the lens of the nba draft…

  287. Sometimes you buy more food than what you can eat.
    It’s not crazy or stupid to put a part of it in the deep freezer instead of cooking it.
    It’s called economy.

  288. Sometimes you buy more food than what you can eat.
    It’s not crazy or stupid to put a part of it in the deep freezer instead of cooking it.
    It’s called economy.

    is it possible to get food poisoning from a fortune cookie

  289. and 2pt % is still absolutely relevant…. contrary to popular belief.. there aren’t that many specialists in the nba… and if they are specialists they’re careers are normally very short…. because you can find people who shoot 3s well literally across the street from me at fort greene park….. what you can’t find are players who shoot 3s well and can play defense or do any number of other productive things….

    guys like korver and redick have had long careers precisely for that reason…. you don’t need to spend a 1st rd pick on guys like quickley…. miami got a supreme version of that in duncan robinson and they didn’t have to spend any picks to do so! the sixers and bucks spent late 2nd rd picks to get pure shooters…..

  290. thenamestsam: I mean “asset management” is a means, not an end, but this is an interesting philosophical argument. It seems like you’re kind of arguing that making any draft pick (maybe outside of slam dunks) is for suckers and the smart move is always to roll it over into a future equivalent draft pick which will hold its value better. I mean why would we ever make that pick in 2023 when it’s extremely likely that whoever we pick will be a known benchwarmer within a couple months. We could probably get a 2026 2nd rounder instead if we play our cards right. This is kind of an argument for using draft picks only as trade pieces.

    I don’t know that there’s a single thing in sports where there’s a higher discrepancy in fucks given between the real people doing the GMing and player personneling, and the armchair versions of same, than with NBA second round draft picks. This very same version of the actual people in the arena essentially giving zero fucks about them plays out every … single … year.

  291. BTW I’m not going to pretend I knew who Daniel Oturu was before last night, but his draft profile looks pretty darn good to me:

    Pre-Draft Analysis
    It’s clear that Oturu’s going to be a legitimate floor spacer in the NBA, especially after watching Oturu go through an hour-plus workout with Ross McMains in Santa Barbara, California. Not only is he reliable from the corners, but he’s excellent above the break with great rotation, soft touch and excellent mechanics, even if he doesn’t have the quickest release.

    Oturu showed signs of shooting growth during his breakout sophomore season, as he knocked down 36.5% of 52 3-point attempts. But to watch it up close after months in the gym was significant, especially when pairing Oturu’s shooting ability with his agility as a ball handler. The Minnesota native has wing-like fluidity at 6-10 and noted how much he’s been working on playing out of short rolls and creating in space, citing Adebayo as a model.

    Already one of the most productive bigs in the draft (20.1 points, 11.3 rebounds, 2.7 blocks), an All-Defense selection in the Big Ten and an excellent finisher, Oturu’s passing ability is the missing piece — he finished with just 33 assists to 88 turnovers under head coach Richard Pitino last season. He’ll show glimpses but can still fine-tune his decision-making and ability to find the open man once he’s in motion. If he can sharpen his floor game, there’s no reason Oturu can’t carve out a consistent role at the NBA level. – Schmitz

    Call me crazy, but I think we could have carved out space on this talent-laden roster for a guy like that.

  292. As an armchair GM, I’d rather have Oturu now, while we’re desperately trying to improve our currently barren roster, than a questionably useful (outside of trades) second rounder three years for now when the team would hopefully/hypothetically be out of rebuilding mode. Not like that’ll actually happen, but a man can dream.

  293. Popper:

    Can confirm that the Knicks will sign Myles Powell in the next few days and he is expected to be in training camp with the team.

  294. I’m not crazy about the way that draft night went down…as I said, I would have picked Hali and either RJ Hampton, Terry or Bane, all of whom were available when we had #23. There are very legit reasons to fear that Quickley will not be a legit rotation player and that Obi will be a defensively-challenged highlight reel with a limited offensive game. At least in the Kevin Knox draft we came away with Mitch…we could wind up with essentially nothing.

    But I’m not buying into the whole CAA/Kentucky doomsday theory. Not yet, anyway. There will be a time for that if and when they start doing some unequivocally dumb shit, like trading draft picks for Westbrook or wasting cap space by overpaying for the likes of Portis and Ellington. Toppin and Quickley….and Leon Rose and Thibs…deserve a fair look-see. I’ll give them until New Years Day before passing judgment.

  295. Getting Quickley drafted in the first round is a great feather in the cap for John Calipari.

    ^ from the ringer.

    I want to vomit.

  296. Based on my read of this thread I’m pretty sure we should put Topin and Quickley on the block immediately while they still have some value because they are clearly busts. Maybe we can package them with Frank and Knox (who I heard finally reached puberty in the off season) for a 2nd rounder that we can use to draft a G League player. Gee wiz, let’s see these kids play and let’s see what the new coaches can do to improve on their weaknesses and add to their strengths before we get too down on them. It takes time to develop and build like this. I’m more interested in what they are going to do with the cap space and some tradeable assets like Randle and maybe DSJr.

  297. The other non-drafted head scratcher people are mentioning with Powell is Markus Howard, who’s also a nice player and only didn’t get drafted, one assumes, because he’s too small. Someone will give him a shot. Not really seeing a whole lot of distance between him and fellow midget Carsen Edwards.

  298. ptmilo:
    Sometimes you buy more food than what you can eat.
    It’s not crazy or stupid to put a part of it in the deep freezer instead of cooking it.
    It’s called economy.

    is it possible to get food poisoning from a fortune cookie

    ahahahahahaha I fucking cannot

  299. Yeah the negativity here is a little crazy.

    Both Toppin and Quickley have good college numbers. Aren’t we supposed to like that?

    Toppin was projected to go higher than #8. But we didn’t trade up or trade away an asset to get him. Isn’t that good thing?

    We turned 27 and 38 to 25 and 33 without giving up anything. Isn’t that some slick GMing that we’ve never seen the Knicks do?

    So we traded away 33 for a second round pick in 2 years. I get people think we need players everywhere but honestly…adding Toppin and Quickley to a team that all ready has RJ, Mitch, Frank, Knox, Iggy etc….how many youngsters do you expect to get consistent minutes on this team? There might not even be a G-League this year too.

    Quickley at 25 is NOT a reach. To act like this is Knox 2.0 is dumb,

  300. I did think it was revealing that when they had Calipari on to talk about Quickley he quickly said some banal nice things and then immediately pivoted to talking about how Tyrese Maxey went way too low.

  301. “is it possible to get food poisoning from a fortune cookie”

    only if you trade it with an undercooked poultry such as an albatross

  302. adding Toppin and Quickley to a team that all ready has RJ, Mitch, Frank, Knox, Iggy etc….how many youngsters do you expect to get consistent minutes on this team?

    man not even michael or scotte could expect to break through that rotation!

  303. I did think it was revealing that when they had Calipari on to talk about Quickley he quickly said some banal nice things and then immediately pivoted to talking about how Tyrese Maxey went way too low.

    this is definitely you projecting your feelings onto what Calipari said – he was really effusive with his praise:

    “We win the league by three games and he’s a player of the year in our league,” Calipari said. “He’ll stretch the court. He’s culture, faith-driven. This kid is going to get so much better. He can play on the ball, off the ball. The Knicks got something. The Kniiiiiiiicks got something. I can’t wait to watch him play.”

    Re: Myles Powell – someone mentioned his concussion on twitter and how his shooting went downhill after:

    Concussion was 12/14/19
    Prior to that he was 36/91 (39.5%) from 3
    After the concussion he was 43/167 (25.8%)

    Apparently it was a bad concussion –
    One can imagine maybe he is undervalued right now? Supposedly was a possible 1st round pick going into this past season.

    See, I can find optimism anywhere.

  304. From the tweets I’ve read it doesn’t sound like Powell is likely to make it out of training camp. But who knows.

  305. Maybe I am projecting but that doesn’t sound like that much of a ringing endorsement, especially compared to what he said about Maxey

  306. Myles Powell is a reasonable pick up. He’s a bit short for a 2 guard, but he has long arms and was a good college scorer. Seemed to have a bit of a down year his senior season-anyone here follow Seton Hall?

  307. No decision on Gibson yet. My guess is they are talking to his agent about a new deal at a much lower number, and are stalling as long as they can.

    The Wooten thing is a bit of a bummer, though I guess this allows them to sign Powell to a two-way deal while hanging onto Harper. Then it comes down to which asset is more fungible: the undersized pogo stick who can do a poor man’s approximation of Mitch, or the undersized scoring guard. I’d have kept the pogo stick, but PG is such a barren position for us at the moment that Harper has a path to real minutes (albeit an unlikely path).

  308. Ha, Gibson’s option got declined while I was writing that comment. I still wouldn’t be surprised to see him return at a cheaper price, especially with Wooten gone.

  309. Now seeing Ellington & Gibson gone.

    I could see Taj & Payton coming back on cheaper deals. Supposedly Portis & Knicks have mutual interest.

  310. ***Does Quickley have a cocaine problem? If not, then he might end up being better than Monk.***

    This is turning into a silly discussion, but, since it’s been offered up as evidence, cocaine is a performance enhancer, so Monk’s baseline is possibly even lower than what we have seen, which also doesn’t bode well for players that match his profile.

  311. Maybe Wooten gets signed to training camp? Does that make any sense? Compete for the two-way.

    I don’t think Wooten has any real NBA prospects unless he starts hitting threes (unlikely) but damn would he be fun to watch.

  312. Bagley says there is mutual interest in bringing Bobby Portis back, which is not awesome. I guess he used to be a Thibs guy.

  313. Elfrid is the interesting one I think. Outside of FVV there really isn’t anyone on the free agent market that I’d consider a significant upgrade over him and his deal was totally reasonable for 1 year. It’s always possible that the new management just prefers a different placeholder option, but this definitely increases the odds that we’re planning a splash at that position, meaning most likely either FVV or Westbrook.

  314. I don’t know the full PF market but Portis is probably fine as a backup for Toppin. Just don’t pay him $15MM again. Maybe $3-5MM

  315. Trading away the second round pick is not a move I was a fan of. There were some interesting players still on the board. Theo Maledon wasn’t worth a flyer? Tyler Bey? Elijah Hughes? Tre Jones? Nico Mannion?

    I’m a Raiders fan in the NFL world. And they’re doing okay this season. But Rose’s draft strategy here seems a lot like Jon Gruden’s draft strategy. Gruden has guys he gets fixated on, and he has no problem with reaching for them even if it’s a complete waste of draft capital. If the guy he wants gets picked one selection ahead of his, he won’t have a backup plan and he’ll just trade away the pick.

    I just don’t understand why we’d convert a pick in 2020, when we’re in clear rebuilding mode, for a pick several years down the line when that pick might be less valuable to us. It’s a waste of draft capital and it doesn’t speak well of this front office. I’m okay with the two guys we drafted but the process seems off. Sure, Rose pulled off a nice moving up both of our late picks while giving up nothing, but then he just gave all of that capital right back.

  316. Sorry to see Dotson and Wooten go. I hope Dotson finds a good home. I’m not convinced at least one of either Taj and/or Portis won’t be back, just much cheaper.

  317. So as we stand now:
    Mitch
    RJ
    Randle
    Frank
    Bullock
    Knox
    Obi
    Iggy
    IQ (love it!)
    DSjr
    Harper
    Pinson
    Powell

    Does that sound right?

  318. Per Charania:

    @ShamsCharania

    The Knicks declined team option on Bobby Portis ($15.7M) and waived Taj Gibson ($10.29M) and Elfrid Payton ($8M), sources tell @TheAthleticNBA. Frees up salary space for New York.

    Knicks now have 40 millions in free cap space. Enough for a big splash or two.

  319. trying to recall our current roster at the moment, but, seems like we’ll need to bring in at least six or so free agents/trades to fill out the roster…

    thanks z-man, just saw you posted the list:

    Mitch
    RJ
    Randle
    Frank
    Bullock
    Knox
    Obi
    Iggy
    IQ (love it!)
    DSjr
    Harper
    Pinson
    Powell

    wow, that is a lot of young guys, solid 20 win team there…

  320. Early Bird:
    I don’t know the full PF market but Portis is probably fine as a backup for Toppin. Just don’t pay him $15MM again. Maybe $3-5MM

    Agreed, Portis is a fine backup on a minimal salary.

  321. I’ve always had Portis as either the 2 or the 1A among the mercs, right with or just behind Bullock. The whole merc idea was just dumb af from any sensible angle imaginable, but if they have to be ranked, that’s the rank.

  322. JK47:
    I just don’t understand why we’d convert a pick in 2020, when we’re in clear rebuilding mode, for a pick several years down the line when that pick might be less valuable to us. It’s a waste of draft capital and it doesn’t speak well of this front office. I’m okay with the two guys we drafted but the process seems off. Sure, Rose pulled off a nice moving up both of our late picks while giving up nothing, but then he just gave all of that capital right back.

    People were saying here yesterday that the 2023 Draft could be the mythical “double-draft”, when high school prospects would be once again allowed to enter the Draft without going to college for a year. If that’s true, the trade was good.

  323. Depth chart:
    C Robinson
    PF Randle, Toppin, Knox
    SF Barrett
    SG Bullock, Quickley, Iggy, Pinson
    PG Ntilikina, DSJ, Harper, Powell

    That’s, uh, pretty thin

  324. IMO, we are making WAY TOO BIG a deal over trading a trash 2nd round pick in a draft they clearly didn’t like anyone else in for a pick in the future.

    This is like crying because you traded some leftover Chinese food you found in the back of the refrigerator for a meatball sandwich a couple from years from now.

    Who cares?

    We got something back of value we can trade or use at a later date.

    Even “if” there is some very small difference in value (and I’m not sure there is), it’s like not bending over to pick up a penny you see on the street. It’s not like we walked past a $100 bill.

  325. cgreene:
    Does anyone think GSW goes into rebuild if Klay has a torn Achilles?

    I don’t think they really have to….and Steph isn’t getting any younger.

  326. IMO, we are making WAY TOO BIG a deal over trading a trash 2nd round pick in a draft they clearly didn’t like anyone else in for a pick in the future.

    This is like crying because you traded some leftover Chinese food you found in the back of the refrigerator for a meatball sandwich a couple from years from now.

    Who cares?

    And as the time for that pick to be made draws closer, the hopes and aspirations projected upon that pick will, absolutely guaranteed with a certainty barely short of death and taxes, be significantly in excess of the mundane corporeality that is Daniel Oturu.

  327. Z-man: I don’t think they really have to….and Steph isn’t getting any younger.

    Why don’t you think they have to? They aren’t making the playoffs out west. Imagine what they could get for Steph.

  328. cgreene:
    Does anyone think GSW goes into rebuild if Klay has a torn Achilles?

    No way. They still have Curry, Green and Kerr, plus a #2 pick in Wiseman and, last but not least, a brand new arena to fill. With injuries and pandemics, their first year and a half in San Francisco has been terrible, they need to attract audience.

  329. My current thinking is the Knicks wanted IQ because he fits in nicely next to Westbrook.

    IQ
    Westbrook
    RJ
    Toppin
    Mitch

    That would be fun. Still don’t want Westbrook.

  330. I really think Curry is the key guy for GSW. He’s Harden/Giannis level where he makes you a contender by himself. Maybe he’s slowed down too much, but you don’t want to waste his remaining time.

  331. cgreene: Why don’t you think they have to? They aren’t making the playoffs out west. Imagine what they could get for Steph.

    I just can’t see the Golden State Warriors doing something like trading Stephen Curry after he spearheaded 3 championships.

  332. Regarding Toppin: he feels like his best case comp could be healthy Blake Griffin, given his size, athleticism, and college dominance. However, take away the college dominance, which isn’t the greatest sample, given the conference, and another comp could be Trey Lyles, who’s been a decent but underwhelming pro, and about the caliber of player you’d expect from an #8 pick in a weak draft.

  333. This is like crying because you traded some leftover Chinese food you found in the back of the refrigerator for a meatball sandwich a couple from years from now.

    always go for the meatball sandwich, easy choice…

    Draymond and Iguodala must be feeling like “Final Destination” characters right now :/

    ewwwwww, that’s just mean – and really funny too :)

  334. IMO, we are making WAY TOO BIG a deal over trading a trash 2nd round pick in a draft they clearly didn’t like anyone else in for a pick in the future.

    This is like crying because you traded some leftover Chinese food you found in the back of the refrigerator for a meatball sandwich a couple from years from now.

    There are good players selected in the second round pretty much every year. If you can’t identify somebody who MIGHT potentially be a useful piece at 33 maybe you should let somebody else take a crack at this whole “drafting” thing. You know what we have as a talent base on this team? As my Italian grandfather would say, we got stugots.

  335. dang, we barely even have enough salary on the roster to get either bledsoe or conley…i just don’t think either fvv or teague will sign here…

    i sure hope frank and DSJ have been practicing a bunch…

    thibs could’ve had rubio if he wanted him…i wonder if he’ll push for teague…

  336. Donnie Walsh:
    Regarding Toppin: he feels like his best case comp could be healthy Blake Griffin, given his size, athleticism, and college dominance. However, take away the college dominance, which isn’t the greatest sample, given the conference, and another comp could be Trey Lyles, who’s been a decent but underwhelming pro, and about the caliber of player you’d expect from an #8 pick in a weak draft.

    The thing about Obi Toppin is you can see a healthy NBA scoring diet from him early on. You let him shoot corner 3s, attack close outs with one dribble, and you get him running in transition. The problem with Toppin is on defense, and I think he has both the right mentality and the right coaching staff to get him right on that end. He also has a 7’2″ wingspan and a Mitchell Robinson. Those two should get him out of trouble more often than not.

  337. The GMs must not have any confidence in being able to outperform the baseline in those second round picks, otherwise they wouldn’t treat them every year as essentially worthless.(*) Whether factorial or not, they treat the picks as if the ones that get hit on are pure random luck chance. (Frankly, even less than that, in that there’s no evidence any of them really care how many chances they get to hit the random luck.) There is kind of an analytical, egghead fascination to be had with this, as they sure SEEM to have more value than they’re treated as having, but upon closer inspection, they kinda sorta really don’t.

    (*) Not literally indifferent between exercising them and flushing them down the toilet, but not much above that. Their actual value in the arena is pretty much the value Rose put on 33 — if a guy we love falls, we’ll take him, otherwise we’ll punt or sell.

  338. Ok you guys convinced me on the Steph thing.

    Sure does seem like the Westbrook train is warming up and ready to leave the station. Thing is I heard that new Rox GM was being pretty demanding in what he wants in return. May actually prevent us from making an enormous mistake.

  339. Hubert: Two trades that happened right after we kicked 33 to the curb:

    Sacramento got 2 second round picks for 35
    Orlando got two 2nd round picks for 45

    Rose has never heard of the adage, “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.” Yeah, he really should’ve gotten two seconds for the 33 pick, but it is not really a huge deal.

    I’m fine with the Quickly pick. If they hit on Toppin, it’ll be a good draft. If he busts, oh well…

    Waiting with a slight sense of dread over who the new PG will be: VanVleet? Westbrook?

  340. I know he’s the enemy now, but I wonder what Amare’s thoughts were when the Knicks got Obi. And the goofball in me really wishes Toppin had said “THE KNICKS ARE BACK” in his post-draft interview lol

  341. Part of the second-round conundrum is that if you luck out and hit on one, he isn’t locked into rookie scale for 4-5 years as a first rounder would be. Everything else equal, that hits the second-round value pretty hard and probably explains much of the difference we see between seeming value and real value.

  342. The Glass Half Rebuilt: The thing about Obi Toppin is you can see a healthy NBA scoring diet from him early on. You let him shoot corner 3s, attack close outs with one dribble, and you get him running in transition. The problem with Toppin is on defense, and I think he has both the right mentality and the right coaching staff to get him right on that end. He also has a 7’2? wingspan and a Mitchell Robinson. Those two should get him out of trouble more often than not.

    The problem with Toppin is that he doesn’t have any secondary skills beyond scoring. He’s a bad rebounder, an atrocious defender, and a bad playmaker for others. If he’s anything less than Amare as a scorer he’ll be out of the league.

  343. “vincoug
    November 19, 2020 at 2:08 pm
    The problem with Toppin is that he doesn’t have any secondary skills beyond scoring. He’s a bad rebounder, an atrocious defender, and a bad playmaker for others. If he’s anything less than Amare as a scorer he’ll be out of the league.”

    Sounding more and more like Al Harrington by the day.

  344. Z:
    “vincoug
    November 19, 2020 at 2:08 pm
    The problem with Toppin is that he doesn’t have any secondary skills beyond scoring. He’s a bad rebounder, an atrocious defender, and a bad playmaker for others. If he’s anything less than Amare as a scorer he’ll be out of the league.”

    Sounding more and more like Al Harrington by the day.

    That’s an interesting negative comp…

  345. There’s likely a premium on 2023 picks. So I don’t think it’s fair to compare the double draft pick value to other drafts. Also, because high schoolers are less predictable there will probably be better risks in the second round that year in addition to players with first round talent.

    The trades getting 2 picks back don’t give up picks in 2023. There’s some weird protections on the picks going to the Magic, but it’s unlikely to convert that year.

    It’s a reasonable move to gamble on a 2023 second round pick. It’ll look really bad if they don’t end up lowering the age limit, but it’s still a reasonable gamble.

  346. We just opened up 40 million in cap renouncing Taj, Ellington, Portis, Payton and Dotson.

    Taj they think could come back for less, which I don’t mind.

    I think the plan is to go hard after FVV. He fits the timeline better, is a better fit than Westbrook and won’t cost anything but cap.

    I think Westbrook will be a possible fall back option if they can’t entice FVV. I gotta say, I think we have a fair shot at FVV. I think our main competition for him will only be Toronto.

  347. The thing about Obi Toppin is you can see a healthy NBA scoring diet from him early on. You let him shoot corner 3s, attack close outs with one dribble, and you get him running in transition. The problem with Toppin is on defense, and I think he has both the right mentality and the right coaching staff to get him right on that end. He also has a 7’2? wingspan and a Mitchell Robinson. Those two should get him out of trouble more often than not.

    I think he’ll score enough points that there is a very good chance that he could be a serious Rookie of the Year contender. Think about it, the top three picks were: A. A scorer going to a team with two veteran scorers about him in the pecking order B. A center on a perimeter team and C. A point guard on a team with young star forwards. None of those three, therefore, will likely be scoring a lot of pointz. Toppin will, though.

  348. The problem with Toppin is that he doesn’t have any secondary skills beyond scoring. He’s a bad rebounder, an atrocious defender, and a bad playmaker for others. If he’s anything less than Amare as a scorer he’ll be out of the league.

    I think this has really gone too far the other direction.
    I wouldn’t say he’s a BAD rebounder, he’s just not a good rebounder. He has essentially the same rebounding rate as Isaiah Stewart, a center drafted #16 and praised for having an amazing motor, and just a slightly lower rebounding rate as Zeke Nnaji, another big drafted in the first round.

    His passing has consistently drawn praise from analysts etc.

    when you say his only skill is “scoring” – I would say scoring 25 points per 40 at a 69% TS and 28 usage is a very good skill to have indeed, since scoring points efficiently is literally how you win basketball games. And he scores on post ups, PNR, PNP, cuts, and shooting 3s. It’s not like Enes Kanter who parks his big ass in the paint and clogs it up for everyone else while he collects an occasional offensive rebound and outback, and literally can’t do anything else.

    Literally his only weakness is guarding PNRs – which granted is a big part of playing defense as a 4 or a 5. And not that steals and blocks are the end all be all, but he average 1.2 steals and 1.5 blocks per 40 which is not awful (also not great). Remember also that he was basically the offensive fulcrum for Dayton – plenty of dudes have been poor effort guys on defense when shouldering a heavy offensive load.

    Anyway, let’s give him a shot. Seems like a great kid. Mom is a special ed teacher in Washington heights. I really want him to succeed.

  349. Z:
    “vincoug
    November 19, 2020 at 2:08 pm
    The problem with Toppin is that he doesn’t have any secondary skills beyond scoring. He’s a bad rebounder, an atrocious defender, and a bad playmaker for others. If he’s anything less than Amare as a scorer he’ll be out of the league.”

    Sounding more and more like Al Harrington by the day.

    Derrick Williams is who I keep thinking of.

    swiftandabundant:
    My understanding is Obi is a pretty good passing big.

    If he is, it’s not reflected in the stats. Two years ago he averaged 1.8 assists to 1.9 TO/game. Last year, it was 2.2 assists and TO/game.

  350. john wallace is another obi comp that comes to mind.

    anyone else thing daniel oturu might end up being the best player we drafted last night?

  351. Worth watching this cut-up from Dayton vs Kansas (ie. Obi vs. Azubuike)
    Definitely mixed on defense.
    Some frankly amazing blocks by Obi – as a weak side rim protector he might have some promise. Held his own at times against Azubuike but several times just got overwhelmed (Azubuike has like 4 inches and 60 lbs on him). But on the other side, Azubuike clearly could not deal with him on offense.

    The offense looks fantastic, including a stepback 3 which looked pretty smooth. He can put the ball on the floor with either hand.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PonQFZBkzFc

  352. If that stepback three over a tall guy is really a consistent part of his NBA repertoire, look out. Sky’s the limit at that point.

    Beyond trying hard and the occasional strip, he can’t guard low post first round talent 5s playing low post ball, but there won’t be any need for him to do that.

  353. Hubert:

    anyone else thing daniel oturu might end up being the best player we drafted last night?

    You’re on your own here, my friend.

  354. @JeffreyBellone
    It seems Myles Powell will likely be signed to an Exhibit 10 contract which will allow him to participate in training camp and either be converted to a two-way or given a nice bonus if sent to G-League, depending on how that works out this year

    So they’re not just slotting him into Wooten’s old contract position.

  355. Isn’t Powell another guy who had ties to Rose (via Brunson)?

    Dude’s rolodex must have like 5 people in it.

  356. Some frankly amazing blocks by Obi – as a weak side rim protector he might have some promise.

    I don’t buy the Amare comps on offense really at all, but it’s funny I do see shades of Amare in his defense. Amare also had that thing where sometimes he’d make a play on D that would remind you “oh yeah, that’s one of the most athletic guys in the league” but he just wasn’t in position consistently enough to make an overall positive impact on that end and that’s what I see with Obi. When the moment is perfectly aligned for him and he needs to run in a straight line, jump, and use his and eye coordination to block, those are all things he’s really, really good at.

    I expect he’s going to make enough highlight reel plays on D that by midseason the MSG crew are going to be pushing the narrative that he’s been better on defense than anyone expected. The question is how much he’s taking off the table the rest of the time and that we will have to wait and see I think.

  357. I am choosing to remain optimistic. He is a legit player on offense and next to Mitch, I don’t need him to draw the tough assignment every night. He needs to be a body in the paint and minimize layups and dunks. That’s it (which is admittedly a lot).

  358. the pistons sorta seem like they are not going to pay more than their early bird max for wood now that they made the ariza and dedmon trades? i lost interest in wood when it looked like there might be a bid into the mid to high teens, but he might be interesting in the 10-12 range, which will be above the early bird max.

    edit: i didn’t see snell was in the dedmon deal, that makes it close to no cap impact. still, they might not have more cap room than their EB max

  359. I am choosing to remain optimistic.

    Who are you and what have you done with Jowles?!?!?!

    Also, what do you think of Quickley, impostor?

  360. I’m officially worried now that the Knicks have cleared up all that space. Westbrook is coming. And they waived Wooten to boot.

  361. Everyone’s gone!

    Taj, Portis, Elfrid, Ellington, Wooten & Pinson all waived or had options declined.

    This is the team as it stands:
    RJ Barrett, Obi Topin, Julius Randle, Mitchel Robinson, Dennis Smith Jr., Frank Ntilikina, Immanuel Quickly
    Reggie Bullock, Ignas Brazdekis, Kevin Knox, and Myles Powell

  362. “Z-man
    November 19, 2020 at 2:17 pm
    That’s an interesting negative comp…”

    Hey, Al Harrington was a woulda, coulda, shoulda kind of talent. He’s just the same size kind of over-sized tweener forward who could score with creativity, but did little else out there, despite having all the tools…

  363. The issue isn’t just PnR defense… it’s literally moving and being aware of what’s happening around him. Some of these plays are horrifying: https://youtu.be/-mlZhl86Ulk?t=328. I’ve heard some say his backpedaling is a worse issue than lateral quickness. Then there are the issues with his effort, guarding in the post…

  364. Stein:

    The Knicks have been aggressive in their pursuit of Gordon Hayward all week, sources say

    Amid a growing belief leaguewide that Hayward will decline his $34 million player option for next season, New York may loom as Hayward’s best option given all the Knicks’ newfound cap space

    UPDATE: Begley counters with this:

    Filed this to SNY a few minutes ago: some Knicks decision makers have indeed had interest in acquiring Gordon Hayward. But it’s seen as less likely now that the club used its draft picks last night. Full story posting soon. Ringer and NY Times also noted NYK-Hayward interest

  365. Re Blake Griffin, I almost made that comparison, then was going to say he’s like if Ken Faried and Blake Griffin had a baby, and then I just threw that in the trashcan.

    I’d be surprised if Westbrook is not a Knick by the end of the week.

  366. Al Harrington was never a nuclear athlete like Obi is. He was mostly a below-the-rim player. His max # of dunks in a season was 81 in 66 games, and Obi had 107 this year in 31 games.

    Also Al’s HIGHEST FG% in a season was 47.5%. Obi Granted that’s in the pros and not at Dayton, but they’re really just not comparable at all. Stylistically he is far closer to Amare than Harrington – and he shoots 3s also, whereas Amare never did for whatever reason.

    I’m just not sure what all the doom and gloom is here. For Pete’s sake, even Jowles has some optimism about Obi. Dude had a TS of ~70% on 25+% usage with dunks galore, shot 40% from 3 point range on over 100 attempts, and even knows how to pass the ball a bit. Who cares if he is 22 years old – and FWiW he put up roughly he same #s in his age 21 season. And his numbers held up against tougher competition – it wasn’t just against 6’5″ white guys. vs Kansas and Azubuike he went for 18 points on 11 shots, 9 Rebs, 3 blocks, and Dayton nearly pulled the upset to boot despite him being the only player on Dayton remotely close to being an NBA player (as opposed to Kansas having Azubuike, Dotson, etc and being the #1 team in the country) – ie. not just empty numbers.

  367. Perfectly fine with Hayward by the way as long as it’s a 2 year deal. Maybe a 3 year deal with a partial guarantee would be ok.

    Hayward at 3 years with declining salary wouldn’t be bad – say $30MM year 1, 27.6MM year 2, 25.4MM year 3 with 3rd year guaranteed for, say, $6MM.

    so 3 years 83MM but last year only partial guarantee. I would be ok with that.

  368. You know, for all the talk about FVV and/or Westbrook, the Pelicans’ guard rotation now includes Lonzo Ball, Eric Bledsoe, George Hill, JJ Redick, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, and Kira Lewis.

    By the way, which one of us is Dan Devine again?

  369. Hayward at 3 years with declining salary wouldn’t be bad – say $30MM year 1, 27.6MM year 2, 25.4MM year 3 with 3rd year guaranteed for, say, $6MM.

    The problem is it’s a little hard for me to imagine Hayward opting out of this year just to add 2 years and like $30M guaranteed to his current deal unless he really just wants out of Boston. It’s going to have to be a pretty big deal in order to give him a real financial incentive.

  370. Thoughts on this?

    @VinceGoodwill
    The Minnesota Timberwolves have made guard Malik Beasley available in discussions, and the New York Knicks are one of several interested teams, according to sources. He averaged 20 after being traded from Denver to Minnesota last season

  371. “Frank
    November 19, 2020 at 4:06 pm
    Al Harrington was never a nuclear athlete like Obi is. He was mostly a below-the-rim player. His max # of dunks in a season was 81 in 66 games, and Obi had 107 this year in 31 games.”

    If you want to compare dunking on the St. Bonaventure Bonnies and the Duquesne Dukes vs. dunking on the Detroit Pistons and the San Antonio Spurs, then, yeah, you’ll probably feel pretty good about those 26 extra dunks. But in truth, Al Harrington was the same size as Toppin when he was 22, and came into the league touted as an athletic dynamo.

    But, like I said, this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Harrington played in the league a long time, and had value (though mostly perceived and not real)

  372. my hypothesis: we’re trading randle and maybe another player a Dallas 1rp to houston for russ, then signing hayward to a long term deal (4 years to make up for the loss compared to opt-out) with the rest of the money. I then promptly kill myself, either before both their legs stop working or after.

  373. Now that we’re dangerously low on power forwards, maybe we should look at Ilyasova, who was just released by the Bucks…

    Isn’t Beasley still having some issues with the boys in blue?

  374. There are good players selected in the second round pretty much every year. If you can’t identify somebody who MIGHT potentially be a useful piece at 33 maybe you should let somebody else take a crack at this whole “drafting” thing. You know what we have as a talent base on this team? As my Italian grandfather would say, we got stugots.

    We don’t need guys that are highly likely to either not make the team or become some filler at the end of the bench. We need bonafide starters and all stars. If you don’t see a real gem down there, imo you are better off not making a selection just for the sake of it. Maybe we can use that future pick as a small part of deal that nets us a real player at some point the future. That’s my preference. I also think the idea is to eventually consolidate assets (like the Dallas picks) and whatever else someone may be interested in into a real player. I’m not a fan of the shotgun approach. To me, that’s an admission that you don’t know what you are doing and are trying to get lucky with diversification.

  375. It’s somewhat rarely the obvious stupid thing. It’s often the stupid thing no one was even thinking about. Good to keep that in mind right about now.

  376. Kelly Oubre to GSW who absorb him into Exception. I’m gonna go ahead and guess OKC got a 1st round pick out of it.

  377. Please be a salary dump and the Knicks get a pick…?

    Looks like it is. Woj reporting that the Knicks are also getting two 2023 2nd rounders in the trade.

  378. Dink: Looks like it is. Woj reporting that the Knicks are also getting two 2023 2nd rounders in the trade.

    Nice. Rose loading up for 2023?

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