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Sunday, August 20, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.07.31)

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose wanted no part of the Knicks’ plans for him
    (Sunday, July 30, 2017 8:28:54 PM)

    Kyrie Irving wants the Knicks. Derrick Rose did not. The divorce was mutual when Rose accepted the Cavaliers’ veteran minimum for one year, $2.1 million last week. The Knicks, who kept in contact with Rose until the end, never offered him the veteran’s minimum, according to an NBA source. Knicks brass believes newly acquired veteran…

  • [NYDN] VIDEO: Ex-Knick Danilo Gallinari punches opponent, fractures hand
    (Sunday, July 30, 2017 7:08:16 PM)

    Not a good look for Gallinari.

  • 82 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.31)

    1. Z-man

      from last thread, re: Patrick Beverley, he is an extremely low-volume shooter who has been cherry-picking 3’s playing off of Harden, etc. (14.1% USG). I’m pretty skeptical if he can maintain those numbers at a higher usage. And there’s no such thing as a lockdown defender vs. the GSW, especially Curry.

      I can see trying to beat the Dubs by playing a different style, but there’s no getting around that they are gonna score a lot of points. Beverley is a good perimeter defender, but he can get disrupted in the high PnR and is not a volume scorer. Jordan is not a perimeter defender, and might become useless in small ball like Tristan Thompson did.

    2. Totes McGoats

      2 quick thoughts:
      1. It’s nice to hear so much adoration for Scott Perry around the league. Maybe this really is a great hire and turning point. I’m slowly getting encouraged..
      2. With or without Melo, I believe this team gets around 30-35 wins. KP has to be ready for the alpha role, and I think he just might be. His mentality says it all and I love the fact he told the team in his own way what he expects. Don’t agree with the method though.

      Oh wait..one more thing:
      Keeping Melo this season will definitely be a distraction. If there is a trade to be made, it has to happen before camp.

    3. lavor postell

      Melo needs to be traded but if the only option is a deal involving the Knicks taking back Ryan Anderson then standing pat is a better alternative

    4. Z-man

      Right, Ryan Anderson is guaranteed to be a disruption for 3 years. Melo is very possibly a distraction for only 1 year if we keep him. I think he opts out.

    5. Bruno Almeida

      Z-Man, I understand his usage is low, but he averages 4.4 3pt attempts per game for his career at this percentage. Kyrie averaged 5. I just didn’t understand how going from a guy who shoots 5-6 threes a game at 38% to a guy who shoots 4 threes a game at 38% would indicate Cleveland becoming the worst 3pt shooting team in the game.

      They would have to adjust massively without Kyrie and I agree they would struggle in many aspects by losing what he provides; if Kyrie does want to leave still, it seems far and away the best possible offer on the table for another shot at the finals.

    6. DRed

      If Cle wants to try to win this year, that Clips deal would be good, and so would something like Dragic/Winslow. Either deal you lose something on offense, but you make the defense much better, and offense was not the problem for the Cavs.

    7. Bruno Almeida

      We can nitpick all we want, but the Pacers got Oladipo and Sabonis for George, who’s a very similar player to Kyrie in terms of value. There’s no way the Cavs should realistically expect more than Beverley + DeAndre or Dragic + Winslow.

    8. lavor postell

      George had 1 year left on his deal. Kyrie has 2. The value isn’t the same for that reason alone.

    9. Bruno Almeida

      I understand that contract makes a difference, but I think George is a better player and the Kyrie offers listed are much, much better than Oladipo + Sabonis.

    10. thenamestsam

      When comparing with the George trade it’s also important to keep in mind that all the reporting indicates the Pacers had at least a couple offers on the table better than the one they ended up taking. They could have had Gary Harris and number 13 in the draft (ended up Donovan Mitchell). That’s a nice haul. They could have had Kevin Love straight up. That’s not bad. Hell if they’d waited they could for sure have gotten a better offer from Boston once Hayward signed or they might have even ended up with Kyrie. They took an awful package because they’re poorly run, not because that was the only option. The cavs may do the same, but I don’t think we can base Kyrie’s expected value off the fact that the Pacers are dumb.

    11. 2FOR18, understands math

      Beverley/Jordan is a big haul, and I’d take it in a vacuum. But Lebron knows how horrible they were with him on the bench as it was, plus how exhausting it was to be their main playmaker, so taking away Kyrie for Beverley would really make it difficult for them to score with Lebron off the court, and they lose their secondary playmaker when he’s on the court.
      But yeah, the 3 point argument is specious. If anything, Beverley would get more open looks with Lebron than Harden.

      As for the Knicks being a playoff team with those pgs and that rebounding and that defense, I can only shake my head once again.

    12. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The best trade is Bledsoe and Melo for Irving and one of New York or Phoenix getting assets back for their best player while Kyrie goes to the other team. Cleveland wouldn’t go wrong with that deal.

    13. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      There’s a report out that the Knicks never offered Derrick Rose even a minimum contract. How’s that for incompetence?

      Call me crazy but I believe in our front office.

    14. Z-man

      Kyrie is a ball-dominant scorer, and I would suspect that many more of his 3’s are contested than Beverley’s. This is especially relevant in the playoffs, where Kyrie has shot an elite 41.5% on threes on 294 career attempts, while Beverley shot a pedestrian 34.8% on 112 total attempts. Beverley is a very good defensive player, but is not particularly good at anything on offense except making wide-open 3’s. His assist rate is below 20%, and in the playoffs topped out at 16% last year.

    15. Z-man

      “There’s a report out that the Knicks never offered Derrick Rose even a minimum contract. How’s that for incompetence?”

      I think that is actually one of the more competent things the Knicks FO has done. Regardless of what Rose is getting paid, in his mind he’s a max player. This team does not need a diva hogging the ball to justify his next contract. Good riddance.

    16. Bruno Almeida

      @15

      I understand that, I really do.

      However, the Cavs were second in the league in 3pt% last season, only behind San Antonio.

      Do you really believe trading Kyrie + Thompson for Beverley + DeAndre would take them from 2nd place straight to 30th? From 38.4% to 32.7% (OKC’s mark, the worst in the league)?

      I was responding to this part of your comment, not arguing that Beverley would be able to replace what Kyrie does, I agree it’s obvious that he wouldn’t. The big part of that proposed trade is DeAndre, not him, Beverley is a strong defender who can bring up the ball a little and shoot open threes, nothing more.

    17. Bruno Almeida

      I do believe not showing even interest in re-signing Rose, while the team did not have an estabilished PG, is a good sign. I’m very happy they chose to give the contract that Rose could get to Sessions, because it shows an emphasis on looking for a different type of player. Kudos to them, yes.

      It feels weird to compliment a Front Office for not making an egregious mistake, but it is a good sign nonetheless.

    18. djphan

      the cavs biggest deficiency against the warriors was paint defense… they didn’t have anyone who could both play the pnr and defend the basket…

      not sure if jordan helps any in that regard but they need a mobile big to spot love and not play thompson any minutes… thompson is still useful against the east bigs like horford and ibaka who he absolutely chews up… they probably should’ve tried to get chandler at the deadline…

    19. Z-man

      Bruno, I’m exaggerating re: last in the league, but I think it would hurt them. Not a big disagreement. The larger point is that I think the Cavs are better with Irving and Thompson than with Beverley and Jordan. It’s a more than fair deal, but doesn’t improve the Cav’s chances vs. GSW and might actually hurt. But if your point is that taking the risk on change is better than going with a failed recipe, that’s fair.

    20. Bruno Almeida

      I’m working under the assumption that Irving is gone, so that’s why I think its fair value. I also really like Thompson and think he should be very valuable around the league as a trade piece, which might not be true at all in negotiations due to his nature as a player.

    21. TheOakmanCometh

      It is encouraging that neither Mills nor Perry offered anything to Rose. Hopefully it was based on an evaluation of Rose’s effect on the team, and not on Mills’ mantra of “anyone over 25 is bad, while anyone 25 or under is worth 3x their market rate.”

    22. Zanzibar

      Would Tyson Chandler be a valuable player to “win now” Cavs? If so, the following trade (which works in trade machine) looks nice:

      NYK………Kyrie, Shumpert, Jefferson
      Cavs………Melo, Bledsoe, Chandler
      Phoenix..Frye, Felder, Tavares, Osman, ???

      – Phoenix frees up 13m cap next summer and receives some young players. Maybe the 3 young players in trade are sufficient or maybe some 2nd round picks are added or maybe Cavs add a 1st. We might not have to add anything more – worst might be we’d have to pony up a lottery protected pick.

      – Melo and Bledsoe replace Kyrie’s shot creation. Tyson permits spread PnR type sets. Main issue for Cavs would be luxury tax. Bron/Kevin/Bledsoe/Melo/Thompson/Tyson/JR/Korver/Rose/Green/Calderon

      – NYK receive Kyrie, take one bad contract (Shump) and maaaybe that’s it. Lottery protected 1st might be max we’d need to add.

    23. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      The larger point is that I think the Cavs are better with Irving and Thompson than with Beverley and Jordan.

      The assumption repeated ad nauseum is that a player who takes high-degree-of-difficulty shots is inherently more valuable than one who doesn’t. Still no evidence whatsoever for that argument. Also, the idea that players “cherry pick” good, uncontested shot attempts is downright silly in a league where Beverley’s very team scored 140 points last season without taking a single midrange shot attempt.

      And Jordan? Jeez, man. You have to ignore literally every stat to think he’s anything but a superstar. Limited, but extremely valuable. The Cavs could win 62-65 with Jordan playing 2500 minutes of lobs from LeBron, Love and literally anyone they put at PG.

      Reminds me of entire years where Chandler was underrated by your kind, and the team torpedoed back to nothingness after he left. I hope the Cavs get Jordan, at the very least, because it’s going to be an inarguable lesson in low-usage, high-efficiency value.

    24. Ntilakilla

      The assumption repeated ad nauseum is that a player who takes high-degree-of-difficulty shots is inherently more valuable than one who doesn’t. Still no evidence whatsoever for that argument.

      Melo’s contract.

      Game.
      Set.
      Match.

    25. Bruno Almeida

      Well, people will argue that DeAndre only managed to produce those numbers because he had Paul and then LeBron, the same way people went through insane mental gymnastics to prove Tyson Chandler was less valuable than Melo.

      There’s no much that can be done to be honest, so I’d rather skip those discussions since they honestly just won’t be productive ever when a lot of people still follow Lou Williams’ mantra.

    26. Jack Bauer

      Knicks front office not offering D Rose a contract, there is some hope on the horizon.

    27. 2FOR18, understands math

      Kind of a misplaced rant by Jowles, as nobody’s saying anything negative about Jordan on this thread, and only 1 of the usual suspects is making the great shot creator’s 3pt% > cherry picker’s 3pt% argument.

      I think we’re just out of things to talk about, so I’ll just say I will storm the field if Girardi plays Holliday tonight.

    28. Jack Bauer

      I could be wrong, but I don’t think Deandre Jordan is going to help the Cavs beat the Warriors, which is the main focus of the Cleveland Lebrons. While he would help their rebounding, rim protection, and defense and would be great on the PNR with LeBron diving to the basket, playoff basketball seems to have evolved (or devolved if you’d rather) into small ball and 3 point shooting. Where does DJ fit into that equation? Most likely on the bench a la Mosgov from a few years ago.

    29. er

      ever when a lot of people still follow Lou Williams’ mantra

      Yeah…people advocated for an under 40% shooter. GTFOH with your hyperbole. Melo and Chandler were a 2 headed monster. They were about equal on value . Why does it have to keep being an argument?

    30. Z-man

      No, I’m arguing that Jordan and Beverley does not make the Cavs better than Thompson and Irving ONLY VS THE WARRIORS. Jordan and Thompson are somewhat similar players. Jordan is clearly better overall, but is one of the very worst FT shooters in NBA history and is not as good of a perimeter defender as Thompson, making him even more vulnerable to the Warriors’s small lineup configuration. Jordan is also older, gets paid more money, and has a player option after this year.

      And yes, I am and will continue to make that argument re: the Beverleys vs. the Irvings. Notice that you didn’t comment on the playoff stats I posted in defense of my argument that Irving is the better 3-pt shooter. I must be cherry-picking there too, right?

    31. nicos

      Important to note that Jordan can (and almost certainly would) opt out after next season. Trading Kyrie is really their only chance to get some talent that will still be there if LBJ opts out after next year. And for what it’s worth, GSW killed the Clips when Jordan was on the floor last year and he’s only had one game with a positive +/- against them in the last three years. It probably doesn’t mean all that much but it’d make me very wary about trading for him when you really need to beat (or at least seriously challenge) the Warriors or risk losing both he and LBJ and be left with Love and a bunch of scrubs. If I’m moving Kyrie I’d want at least one very good player who’d be on the team beyond next year in return.

    32. Ntilakilla

      Knicks had interest in re-signing Derrick Rose when Phil Jackson was president. When Jackson was fired, that interest waned significantly.— Ian Begley (@IanBegley) July 31, 2017

    33. Jack Bauer

      @33
      +1 – which is why the Knicks are not a good fit and are unlikely to get Kyrie unless a third team is involved which is going to complicate it significantly.

    34. Ntilakilla

      Man, I really can’t stand Derrick Rose. I might hate him as much as any Knick I’ve ever seen. The dude rubs me the wrongest of ways.

      “You’re a mentor when you no longer can play,” he added. “This league you get paid to perform. You don’t get paid to be a mentor.”

      This guy seriously believes he’s a top player in his warped brain. Someone should explain to him that the reason he had to take a 1 year/2.3 million dollar deal is because he can no longer play.

    35. lavor postell

      If the Knicks want Kyrie badly they should worry about developing the talent on the roster so that this is an attractive spot for FA’s in a couple of years. If they need to clear cap space to sign him then it would probably cost less to do so than what it would take to trade for him. The next few years should be all about finding out everything possible about the talent on the roster, not making splashy trades.

    36. Ntilakilla

      If the Knicks want Kyrie badly they should worry about developing the talent on the roster so that this is an attractive spot for FA’s in a couple of years.

      This.

    37. Jabstepping Is A Big Part Of What We Do Around Here

      Man, I really can’t stand Derrick Rose. I might hate him as much as any Knick I’ve ever seen. The dude rubs me the wrongest of ways.

      Agreed completely on this sentiment but that quote you posted was from his agent, BJ Armstrong. Point still stands, though. Fuck Derrick Rose.

    38. ClashFan

      @38
      Amen. There are a few of us here who have been arguing this for some time. Forget trading for KI.

      Tank this year. Evaluate and develop the young talent. Add a piece or two in the 2018 draft. Try to clear salary (Lee, LT) for 2 years from now or so when it might be time to make a big move.

      I really hope it is not KI, though. His flat earth stuff and link to that celebrity preacher are a bit concerning; he also seems increasingly narcissistic. Plus, one wonders when his knee gives out.

    39. Bruno Almeida

      Yeah, I agree. Develop the guys we have and stop falling for fool’s gold.

      It’s becoming clear that there are numerous teams interested in Irving and that the Cavs won’t trade him for cheap, so this should be a clear sign for the Knicks to retreat and let go. Too expensive.

      Keep negotiating with Houston until they make a better offer, and if they don’t the team is set.

    40. er

      Why are you so angry? Do you even get why I used Lou Williams’ name?

      3 reasons

      1) The sun is a bit overbearing today and I forgot my shades and i am sweating through my dress shirt :)
      2) I’m tired of talking about Chandler type players. He was a great knick, and Jordan is a great player.

      And finally….
      3) LOU WILLIAMS FRIGGEN SUCKS!!!

    41. Bruno Almeida

      he sucks, yeah, but he still thinks he knows more than those damn nerds without them bones.

    42. d-mar

      Knicks had interest in re-signing Derrick Rose when Phil Jackson was president. When Jackson was fired, that interest waned significantly.— Ian Begley (@IanBegley) July 31, 2017

      This is a sad reminder that we essentially wasted 3 years with that condescending idiot in charge. The only good things he did were drafting Willy and KP, and I’m 100% convinced he would have drafted Okafor if we had the #3 pick.

    43. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Phil, when asked about why he thinks LA passed on Okafor for Russell, said “well maybe they measured him,” or something along those lines. Phil wasn’t a fan of Okafor’s height.

    44. GoNyGoNyGo

      @41
      +infinity. That’s not only the right approach, it’s the only approach.
      Screw DRose.
      Screw Kyrie.
      Screw any trade of picks or young players we control.
      No more ball-hogs.

      All that I would add is that if we stand pat, we need to treat players with respect to make this a go-to destination for future free agents. We can add our hired-gun superstars after we assemble a core of playoff bound kids.

    45. Zanzibar

      Why would Melo prefer Houston to Cleveland?
      (1) No state income tax
      (2) Believes he’d be a better fit being tertiary shot creator (like Olympic Melo)
      (3) Worries Bron might bolt after 1 year (to Houston?) if Cavs falter where CP3 probably already has commitment from Morey to max him next summer
      (4) Doesn’t believe any direct Cavs-NYK deal would improve Cavs (probably make them worse) and he’d ending up taking blame when aging Cavs maybe don’t even make ECF

      However, Melo might reconsider if (1) he and Bledsoe were in deal to Cavs who kept Kevin, Tristan, and JR in any trade, and (2) Bron commits to staying for 2 years. Note Bron would likely have to commit to Gilbert for him to take on even more luxury tax by trading for Melo and Bledsoe. That would take care of (2), (3) and (4) and that team would make it to his first NBA Finals.

      It appears to me if Cavs decide to go all in for the next 2 years we could get Kyrie really cheap by involving Phoenix in a deal (I gave example deal earlier). The worst scenario for us is if Cavs decide to break team up, rebuild and avoid luxury tax. Bron goes to Houston. Kevin goes to 76ers for Bayless, Holmes and pick(s). That leaves Kyrie. I could envision Mills offering Frank, Willy, Dotson, 2018 pick (maybe shedding Noah in deal) and starting Kyrie, Timmy, Melo, KP, Willy and a bench of Lee/Sessions/KOQ/Lance. That team makes the playoffs and Mills is regarded as a hero compared to Phil by fans and media. So much for focus on youth and defense.

    46. 2FOR18, understands math

      Wow, it’s great to see the board forming an anti-Kyrie trade concensus. Keep the young guys and our picks, yay.

    47. Bruno Almeida

      I’d say it’s more of a consensus of Kyrie not being worth that much. I’d be fine with him if the Knicks got him for a Paul George package, like Melo plus protected 2018 or whatever, just never ever at anything close to what the Cavs seem to be demanding.

    48. GoNyGoNyGo

      @51 – You mean that WE get a Cav’s protected #1 and Kyrie for Melo, right? There’s a new law: We don’t trade picks, ever. Never.

    49. Bruno Almeida

      I’d be fine with a lottery protected 2018 that eventually becomes two second rounders. I think this core with Kyrie and all the young pieces would be set for an early late seed in the playoffs and if they dont, 2018 is about a top heavy draft as we’ve had in the later years. losing the 16th pick in a 5 men draft wouldn’t kill me as long as we kept Frank, Willy and everyone else.

      I’d rather no trade was made, yes, but I can get behind that one.

    50. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I guess Darryl Morey is a fool for trading picks and young players for James Harden, and that he was a fool for trading a pick and a young player for Chris Paul.

    51. ClashFan

      Never say never on trading draft picks. There is a time for such a thing, though first rounders should never be unprotected. Let’s all learn that lesson in hubris from the Nets.

      I just don’t think that now is the time; the young core here is not deep enough, yet. If the Knicks tank successfully and get a top 4 or so pick, they can add another really nice piece and better determine what they have in KP, Willy, and Frank.

      Who knows, maybe luck will finally smile on the Knicks in the lottery and they can get one of the top 2 guys.

      If you trade for KI now, the Knicks are likely to win 40 games or so and watch the pick go to Cleveland (even if top 5 or 10 protected). I’d rather win 30, put another piece on the board, and go from there. Plus, we’ll then have a better feel for KP. He needs to show more endurance and consistency this year to be considered a “star” player going forward.

    52. GoNyGoNyGo

      Houston was in a much different place than the Knicks are now. And if the Rockets win the NBA championship with Paul and Harden, it makes sense. If they don’t then they gave up a lot and have to start over.

    53. Bruno Almeida

      and Harden and Paul are bona fide, unquestionable superstars. Kyrie Irving is not on their level.

    54. Brian Cronin

      It’s all about win curve with draft picks. When you’re on the high end of the win curve, first rounders are practically meaningless. Great teams routinely deal their first rounders.

      When you suck, though, don’t trade your first round pick.

    55. kevin5318

      @Eurohoopsnet

      Luka Doncic in his debut with Slovenia:

      14 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists. In 13 minutes.

    56. MSA

      and Harden and Paul are bona fide, unquestionable superstars. Kyrie Irving is not on their level.

      Harden wasn’t that famous in 2012. He was KD promising backup and, despite his great advanced stats, a lot of people thought he couldn’t sustain his numbers as the team leader.

      Houston was coming from a .500 season also and didn’t have many good young prospects, so they weren’t exactly ahead on the winning curve.

      Boston was a .300 team when they traded the whole team and picks for Garnett and Allen.

      IMO there is no “right moment” to trade picks. It’s really about the player you are acquiring for the picks.

      That being said, I don’t think Irving is those type of players you sell the farm to acquire.

    57. stratomatic is despondent

      I guess Darryl Morey is a fool for trading picks and young players for James Harden, and that he was a fool for trading a pick and a young player for Chris Paul.

      Pat Riley is another successful GM that has been very willing to trade picks.

      That’s why I keep saying there is no one sure fire way to build a good team. You have to think in terms of value and availability. As long as you keep winning trades, signing players to fair/bargain contracts, and drafting well, you can get there using any combination of the above.

      The real issue is valuing Kyrie properly.

      IMO, there’s no question he is or is becoming a very high level offensive player. He may even reach elite (top few). The question is defense. It’s very difficult to measure defense properly but most metrics that try suggest he is poor. That’s a problem if true. You don’t want to give away the store for a real liability on defense.

    58. stratomatic is despondent

      IMO there is no “right moment” to trade picks. It’s really about the player you are acquiring for the picks.

      Exactly!

      If the Knicks were the worst team in the league and had just won the lottery, I’d trade 3 first round picks for Giannis Antetokounmpo and immediately max him out unless there was an obvious super elite prospect at #1 this year.

      Even with the #1 pick you are unlikely to get anyone close to Giannis. Once you have him, you are immediately a lot better. That lowers the chance of anyone drafting a player like him subsequently with your next picks and also makes you a more attractive destination at some point in the future.

      There are lot of players besides Giannis you should also trade picks for. You just have value the player vs. the potential for success with whatever pick(s) you are giving up.

    59. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      All I’m saying is a “never ever trade picks ever” mantra is a foolish one. My standpoint is that if Irving costs us Melo, the draft rights to Ognjen Jaramaz, and a 2018 1st round pick you do that deal without question. If it costs more than that, I say no because I think all of Ntilikina, Hernangomez, and Porzingis have a higher ceiling than what Kyrie Irving has demonstrated himself to be. However, I definitely believe Kyrie Irving is a 25 and 9 guy on a roster where he is the primary playmaker, but that’s neither here nor there.

      Nobody here is suggesting we sell the farm for Kyrie Irving, but those who are suggesting that Kyrie Irving isn’t worth a 1st round pick are probably fooling themselves.

    60. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I also believe that the best point guards in the game today are poor defenders except for Paul, Lowry, and Wall. Westbrook, Harden, Curry, and IT are all bad to terrible defenders.

    61. MSA

      Nobody here is suggesting we sell the farm for Kyrie Irving, but those who are suggesting that Kyrie Irving isn’t worth a 1st round pick are probably fooling themselves.

      I agree with you. The odds of drafting someone better than him are very slim. So he worths a 1st.

      However, I just don’t think he will make the Knicks much better than we are right now. So maybe, FOR US, it’s not a good deal to trade a pick for him and we should just roll the dice in the draft.

      I also believe that the best point guards in the game today are poor defenders except for Paul, Lowry, and Wall. Westbrook, Harden, Curry, and IT are all bad to terrible defenders.

      +1

      PG defense in a P&R era is just not important as it used to be. Sure, it’s nice to have a PG better than the average of PGs but no one is stoping the PGs not named Calderon with all the moving screens happening.

    62. stratomatic is despondent

      I also believe that the best point guards in the game today are poor defenders except for Paul, Lowry, and Wall. Westbrook, Harden, Curry, and IT are all bad to terrible defenders.

      You are making a good point.

      I think Curry has gotten better, but think of it this way. Klay helps cover for Curry. IMO, it’s critical we keep Frank to cover for Kyrie if we trade for him.

    63. Z-man

      Kyrie is definitely worth a protected #1 pick and Melo, plus whatever low-level assets are required to make the deal work. Even if he’s not a top-20 NBA player, he’s still a young proven star player on a reasonable contract that plays a position critical to winning in the way that the current NBA demands. I would happily trade him for Melo and Frank without draft picks, but that’s because I think Frank was a mistake and will never be an all-star level player. He’s 19 so it’ just a guess, but that’s what I see right now.

      But it’s not gonna happen, so whatever. I’m cool with the team as it stands.

    64. Brian Cronin

      Oh yeah, I’d also gladly trade a protected first, but since they’d never accept that, it’s a difference without a distinction. “I don’t want to trade a first rounder” = “I want to trade a heavily protected first rounder.” They’re effectively the same thing.

    65. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      There is no way I’m giving Frank Ntilikina up in any trade. Frank is a world class defensive talent and his presence is going to help KP become the elite defender he’s supposed to be.

    66. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Steph Curry is an effort defender which keeps him from being terrible or even bad, but he’s not as good a defender as his steal stats would show. Allen Iverson used to get a bunch of steals, too. So Steph Curry might not belong in the list with those other guys, but I still don’t place too much value on point guard defense. If my point guard can be the engine for a high powered offense, I’ll do my best to get the proper pieces to cover for his deficiencies defensively.

    67. Bruno Almeida

      The issue I see with covering for your PG defensive issues is that its pretty damn rare that you’ll get a 2 guard who’s quick enough to stop elite PGs and it’s still somehow useful on offense. For all the bashing Klay Thompson has gotten from many people, he is that guy, and his defense on Kyrie was incredibly important for GSW to dominate Cleveland.

      And now that the Knicks do have a guy who’s 18 and by all accounts is at least going to be a good defender, the Knicks would include him on a Kyrie trade? That’s insane.

      We’re finally getting the pieces to build a team that won’t get lit up on D by every random Marco Belinelli or Jodie Meeks. I dont want it to end before it happens.

    68. Bruno Almeida

      yeah, I would recommend anyone watching that video to be honest, a great breakdown. I honestly had no idea, I seem to take for granted just how good Curry really is.

    69. er

      We’re finally getting the pieces to build a team that won’t get lit up on D by every random Marco Belinelli or Jodie Meeks. I dont want it to end before it happens.

      Love this.

    70. djphan

      you can cover for your pg defensive issues… curry might not be horrible but he isn’t great…. and the rest of golden state covers for him… same with IT in boston…

      what you absolutely do need is paint defense and that affects your defense way more than your pg….

      if you have a pg that doesn’t create offense… that’s MUCH tougher to replace because you are now asking the other positions to create offense…. there aren’t that many sg’s or sf’s that avg over 5ast per 36…. there aren’t that many players that avg over 5 asts period and the large majority of them are pg’s….

      if you follow baseball…. the whole defensive spectrum applies to basketball as well…. big men have the largest defensive responsibility and pg’s the least… that doesn’t mean pg’s can be bad… you would ideally want them to be good defensively also but it’s very hard for them to have a measurable impact when they are tasked to shutdown some of the best ballhandlers in the league while trying to get through multiple screens and not being able to touch them….

      so that’s why someone like beverley is nice but he really is only great if you have someone like harden to pair him with…. he’s like a super derek fisher or john paxson…. he’s great as a secondary ball handler but if he’s your primary you’re probably in trouble…

    71. Cock Jowles, Not a Knicks Fan Because Fuck This Team

      But some point guards are good at disrupting with their hands, and some aren’t. Chris Paul is short and doesn’t have a long wingspan, but he’s still led the league in steal percentage in four of his seasons, always being among the league leaders. Steve Nash, on the other hand, had multiple seasons of less than 1 steal per 100 possessions. Didn’t seem to matter the scheme or the personnel behind them.

      The implication is that on average, a guard who gets a lot of steals is applying a lot more pressure on the dribble or in the passing lanes than one who doesn’t. Klay Thompson, for instance, has a great reputation despite pretty much doing nothing measurably good on the defensive side (and having a negative DBPM for his whole career to show for it). Positional defense is important, especially in an era where dribble penetration is so important, but it should follow that a guy who gets a lot of steals is (1) spending a ton of time guarding the other team’s primary ball-handler and (2) has defensive pressure skill. Again, Curry may not be able to defend against the switch on the league’s most skilled point-forwards, but he seems to light up guys who don’t have a strong handle. And worse for them: when he gets a steal, he’s converting it to points.

    72. djphan

      steals and blocks are about the only quantifiable number we have for defense for guards.. and it’s not that great… contesting.. rotating … denying penetration are all important but also very hard to quantify also…

      steals are a proxy for a number of things but it’s very dangerous to say that it is a proxy for defense… altho i would tend to say that pg’s that avg 2 steals per 36 are generally at least ok….

    73. Donnie Walsh

      I think that the “Curry’s bad at defense” narrative is media driven and is because old-school basketball trend-setters don’t want to admit that Curry is one of the most dominating basketball players ever to play in the NBA.

      The purpose of a good defense is to try to force the opponent to take low percentage shots. The Warriors have been in the top 3 in eFG% the past 4 years. That goes back to Mark Jackson coaching. Back to before Draymond Green got significant minutes. That is both with Bogut protecting the rim and without him protecting the rim.

      For all of the publicity that the Warriors offense gets, they have been the BEST defensive team in the league during Curry’s prime. That is not accidental, but because defense is hard to quantify and so pretty much anybody can be labeled as “poor defensively” to fit a narrative, Curry has to carry that silliness around with him.

    74. stratomatic is despondent

      If you can’t tell that Klay Thompson is a great defender after the finals, I’m not sure what’s going to convince you. If there are comprehensive stats out there that suggest otherwise, then those stats are flawed. If anecdotal stats suggest otherwise they are not comprehensive enough to measure his impact. He was all over the place, forcing bad shots, disrupting the opposition offense, and switching well when someone else got beat.

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