Should Frank Ntilikina Still Be a Knick Next Season?

Frank Ntilikina has an $8.3 qualifying offer if the Knicks want to make him a restricted free agent. He has a cap hold of $18 million, but obviously that doesn’t matter since the qualifying offer is so much lower and obviously higher than he would get on the open market, so he’d just take the qualifying offer if the Knicks made it, which they likely will not.

So if they renounce his cap hold and don’t give him the qualifying offer, he’ll be an unrestricted free agent who the Knicks would only be able to sign with cap space, but the Knicks obviously have oodles of cap space. So if they wanted to sign him to, like, barely more than the vet minimum deal for a few years, I bet they could do so.

So what do you think the Knicks should do with Ntilikina?

As part of our all-poll content, here is the poll…

The Knicks should do the following with Frank Ntilikina

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212 thoughts to “Should Frank Ntilikina Still Be a Knick Next Season?”

  1. I don’t care how many times Jowles makes fun of me, I will never let go of my belief that there is at least a useful 9th or 10th man lurking within the heart of our French Prince. If Bullock proves too rich for our blood, and if we bring in more playmaking and shot creation elsewhere, I’d be down with 3-And-D Frank on a cheap contract.

  2. The conversation is going to happen either way, so at least now there’s a dedicated thread for it!

  3. While we’re on the subject of Knicks’ lotto busts, I want to revisit a question from the other day: what are the odds that some other team sees Knox as worth a flier at $5.8 million for next year? Would he have any value beyond salary filler if we threw him into a package to trade up in the draft, or a package to acquire a better player in trade?

  4. Alan: I don’t care how many times Jowles makes fun of m

    Tell me your opinion on that Bo Burnham Netflix special that’s lighting the critics on fire right now. Then I will decide whether to make fun of you today.

    I am going to disrespect this thread so hard. Buckle up.

  5. I liked Frank okay when the Knicks drafted him. I thought he was a reasonable pick. I was wrong. He does not have NBA level skills.

    He has been in the league four years and one thing is clear: he is not a point guard. Like not even a little bit. He couldn’t crack a point guard rotation on a team that was starting Elfrid Payton. He is not, nor will he ever be, a point guard. He’s a defense-oriented wing, but sadly, his defense is not even that good. He can harass opposing ballhandlers pretty good, gets some steals, but he gives a lot of that defensive value back by dying on screens and making mental mistakes. Whatever defense he gives you does not make up for the fact that he forces you to play 4-on-5 on the offensive end. 3-on-5 if a defensive oriented center like Noel is on the floor. He’s practically unplayable, which is why he rarely plays.

    There were 56 players selected in the 2017 draft who have played NBA minutes. Frank ranks 51st in that group in career BPM. If you rank them by WS48 he still ranks 51st. VORP has him ranked 53rd. I know some people are under the delusion that boxscore stats cannot capture Frank’s true value or potential, but it’s pretty simple: he is one of the very worst players to come out of that draft.

    Could Frank improve? Well yeah, sure. But so could any 23-year old who has played poorly in the NBA over four seasons. In fact I think it would not be hard to find other young reclamation projects who have better upside potential than a defensive wing who can’t fight through a screen or grab a rebound. There are better ways to use that roster spot.

  6. “Au revoir, Frank” for two reasons. One is because i don’t believe he’ll be more than a 10th man on a contender, if everything works out perfectly, and that’s not a player we need to keep (but i’m also not opposed to keep him as an end of bench player, although i’d prefer young blood on those spots). And the other is because what i think it’s better for Frank now is a change of scenery, a fresh start could do him wonders.

  7. While we’re on the subject of Knicks’ lotto busts, I want to revisit a question from the other day: what are the odds that some other team sees Knox as worth a flier at $5.8 million for next year? Would he have any value beyond salary filler if we threw him into a package to trade up in the draft, or a package to acquire a better player in trade?

    What do you call it when a team with cap room is willing to take someone like Knox for free? Technically, since they’ll be paying him $5.8 million, that means he would have value, but not really, since they’d never trade anything but cap space for him, so what is that called? Is that still having value? If so, then yes, Knox still has some value.

  8. I think a package of one of our picks and Knox might net us a better pick. Maybe the Rockets send us pick 24th for pick 32nd and Knox. They are trying to find hidden gems, it’s only a downgrade of 8 slots for an extra player to evaluate.

  9. Jowles, it’s on my to-do list. RS doesn’t generally have me writing about comedy specials (though it sounds like Inside isn’t exactly that), so I’ve been prioritizing work stuff. I’ll get to it eventually.

  10. don’t forget the olympics are coming (maybe) and for some reason Frank seems to do well in international play. I think that will be enough for someone to take a flier on him. I hope they do, and he gets a fresh start somewhere else and improves. It’s so weird to think that he’s younger than Obi. Did you guys know his middle name is Bryan? I would not have guessed that. Also I had no idea Obi went to HS in Ossining, NY.

  11. It was one thing when we sucked: giving Frank a roster spot and playing time were probably not optimal decisions once a certain level of incompetence was demonstrated but they also didn’t matter much.

    Now we’re actually trying to win as many basketball games as we responsibly can. Do even Frank’s most ardent believers pretend he’s part of a formula wherein the most NBA production possible is stuffed under the salary cap? If he won’t be in 2021-2022 (this seems obvious), when will he be? How many years of sub-NBA level production do we have to invest before the latent powers are unlocked?

    Even if the latent powers are eventually unlocked, will the result really be a player we’re all mad we lost? I mean there are plenty of former Knicks we probably could’ve kept with enough effort that have gone on to prove they can at least stick in the NBA e.g. Langston Galloway, Trey Burke, Bobby Portis (there are also some who haven’t proven as much e.g. Damyean Dotson, who it was popular in some circles to say was woefully underutilized by the Knicks and would show out elsewhere). No one really gives a shit about having lost these guys because even the best versions of themselves were eminently replaceable. Does anyone seriously think Frank will be better than that?

    To be clear I don’t think he has a future as a rotation-level NBA player at all. I won’t belabor the reasons why but low volume league-average 3PT shooting is simply not enough of a “bag” in the NBA unless you’re Ben god damn Wallace on defense (Frank is not that).

    What makes this whole never ending debate ridiculous to me though is even if he does eventually stick it’s highly unlikely we’ll care. No one rues the day we let Langston Galloway walk and Frank probably has a 0.1% chance of being better than that.

  12. So i think the question is clear for almost everyone whether they are staying or going…. Taj probably stays.. Noel.. Burks.. probably gone… Payton giggity gone… Pinson and Harper i think are probably gone also …

    the two where i think it’s murky and that’s because the market is murky is Bullock and Rose….

    Rose i have to think has a market as a backup pg for a playoff team .. like ATL or even PHI or LAL…. what that market is could vary wildly but i think it starts with Rondo’s 8mm AAV and ends at Marcus Smart’s 13mm AAV… and i think he’s going to want at least 3 years and someone is likely going to give it to him…. i think 3 years is too much of a commitment from us but the other thing to consider is that the market isn’t exactly rich with good pg’s as it is…

    We could try a big 1 1 deal with McConnell or maybe even Dinwiddie but i don’t see anyone else who’s good enough and would likely take a challenge contract like that… that probably means we commit multiyear money at the pg spot and Rose would be one out of many candidates… I still think the best avenue to go is the trade market and there are a few teams with pg gluts that we can use to poach someone on a short term deal that’s cheap… anyway this is the biggest question for me this offseason and there aren’t any great answers…

    Bullock is also going to depend… KCP got 3/39… Crowder got 3/29 and Justin Holiday got 3/18 last offseason… if you look at Bullock’s career he’s much closer to Holiday than either KCP or Crowder.. so there’s reason to believe he would be one of the cheapest to come back and 3/18 wouldn’t impact our long term cap situation too much… then again as far as 3&D wings go the cupboard is bare this offseason so someone should be enticed to give him at least Crowder money.. you just never know with NBA gm’s…. but there’s reason to be hopeful it’s cheaper than that…

  13. I think it’s above 50/50 someone would take Knox for free but that’s literally it. We wouldn’t get a 2RP or anything unless it was one the team intended to give away anyway.

    Alan already posted it but this article is a worthwhile read main just due to the draft talk. Vecenie thinks the best realistic draft haul for us would be Duarte and McBride (they didn’t discuss the DET 2nd, which was too bad).

    I’m fairly pro-Duarte so that part was fine by me, but I think we’ll have better options than McBride almost regardless of how the draft shakes out. I don’t hate him, but I have Springer, Dosunmu, Cooper, Thomas, Butler, and Christopher all ranked above him.

  14. Au revoir Frank, I can’t imagine there’s any chance that we re-sign him and I look forward to the day he’s no longer on the team. Giving him any sort of contract beyond the minimum is only a slightly better use of cap space than the $6M hit we’re still taking for Joakim Noah.

  15. i am pretty down on mcbride myself…. and i think there would be better risks to take in the first rd… at the top 2nd.. probably… and towards the mid to end of the 2nd is about where it starts making sense to take him….

    his problem is that he doesn’t really get to the rim…. 19% of his shots are at the rim and whereas he’s shooting 37% on those midrange non-rim shots… for a first rd’er relative to the others that is pretty bad….

    he shoots 3’s ok and his defense is legitimately good.. any huggins pg will be good there… but for a maybe pg who’s calling card on offense is his 3pt shot and has issues getting to the basket… we already have that guy… adding in defense to this player profile isn’t exactly a great use of a 1st rd pick and pretty redundant imo…

  16. Is there any other knicks player in the last 10 yrs that has knicks fans “divided” in 2 fanatic camps?
    I don’t remember anyone else..
    There must be a reason about that.
    3yrs 18M

  17. If there’s a team that wants last season’s DSJ then there are definitely teams outthere who could want Frank and Knox.

  18. djphan I’m skeptical for similar reasons. The only thing I’ll say in his defense is his statistical profile is fairly similar to VanVleet’s and VanVleet has obviously worked out well.

    I didn’t watch nearly enough of McBride to have an informed opinion on whether or not he can be the rare bird who has success in the NBA despite not really being a finisher but in a draft is deep as this one I have no desire to find out.

  19. If Thibs’ rotations were humane and normal I’d say that Frank was definitely done in the nba and probably would go back to Paris to hold his bagette and wear his beret near Sequana river.
    But since Thibs rotations hide surprises i dont count him out yet. Not even from the Knicks.

  20. Is there any other knicks player in the last 10 yrs that has knicks fans “divided” in 2 fanatic camps?
    I don’t remember anyone else..
    There must be a reason about that.

    Google “endowment effect.”

    That’s the reason. You can find all sorts of Frank Ntilikinas on the scrap heap, but we sure do love our own little draft bust! He’s our very own special little flower.

  21. I think Frank’s gone and I think he should be for all the myriad reasons folks have suggested, but in all transparency I voted vet min because *I’D* pay $3 mil just to watch Jowles’ head explode (Jowles, not because I wish you ill, but because you’re so much fun to read when you’re seething…).

  22. And before I’m ingested again by the video meeting monster, last comment regarding the last threat — I scrolled down to the bottom of the two-point-percentage list and found Derrick Rose all the way down at 98th at 49%. I would have been wildly wrong on that one.

  23. yea i mean vanvleet was a good pick in the 2nd rd also… and he was an even better pick when he went undrafted….. sometimes these guys find success in spite of their weaknesses…. the difference with mcbride is that he wasn’t a pg his freshman year and played very little with the ball in his hands… this year he was a pg but he was a pg in the way jared butler or davion mitchell were… they weren’t bending defenses with their dribble… if anything he’s more similar in playstyle with jevon carter… another moutaineer under huggins…

    fvv never had that problem.. his handle was always good to great… and always played a heady game… he didn’t have enough verticality to get to the rim all that often … but he mitigated that in the pro’s.. probably with the help of the raptor staff… to jack up his 3pr and be more selective on his rim attempts…. he’s still pretty bad but he mitigates that because he contributes elsewhere and other players are relied upon to bend defenses…

  24. Woj:

    Sources: NBA’s Competition Committee met Monday to further explore rules changes to restrict unnatural motions on jump shots players use to draw fouls. NBA wants to limit players – including stars like Trae Young, James Harden – from leaning backwards and sideways to draw fouls.

    Quickley needs to expand his game even more than we thought, it looks like.

  25. I think D’Antoni is a fine coach, but how in the world do you fire Stotts to hire D’Antoni? That doesn’t make any sense. It’d be like firing Clifford and hiring Vogel.

  26. Things I’d rather do than give Frank Ntilikina a five year contract:

    1. Try to talk Mardy Collins out of retirement
    2. Convert Taj Gibson to point guard
    3. Staple a slice of provolone cheese to my ass
    4. Eat a durian pie
    5. Cut off 1.5 of my thumbs
    6. Work for a year as James Dolan’s guitar tech

    hmmmm, might be some latent fetish thing – but, i just can’t get enough of the thought of stapling provolone cheese to my ass…

  27. je ne veux pas le voir dans un uniforme de knick l’année prochaine…s’il vous plait…

  28. okay then, if we’re partly participating in playing prognostication party games – here you go…frank ntilikina is still playing in the nba 2 year, 4 years, 6 years from now???

    frank has one more year in the nba to figure things out…

    mudiay got 5 years, DSjr will probably get one more try, yeah i can see another team giving frank a one year minimum salary deal…

    do i believe he has nba level talent…i don’t know, his handle is atrocious and he doesn’t rebound – either offensively or defensively, and because his handle is so bad, he doesn’t really create scoring opportunities on offense…

    defensively, he is good on ball, getting better at helping his teammates…he needs to log waaay more deflections…

    it’s weird though – despite his rotten offensive stats – i think he helps for a team to play winning basketball, he’s got to figure out a way to get more rebounds and get to the rim…

    yep, one more year to get good enough to stick in the nba…

  29. From TheStrickland:

    The Knicks may not improve next season (and that’s OK)

    Hmmm…I’m of two minds on this one. On the one hand, I agree that we should prepare ourselves for the Knicks to take a step back next season. However, I’m unsure whether we should be “okay” with it. I think there’s a lot to be said for the fact that a step backwards next season could actually be a really big problem, depending on how the Knicks spend their cap space and draft picks.

    So much if up in the air for this team. That is good in some ways, but it’s scary in other ways.

  30. I largely agree with that take, cybersoze. Especially this piece:

    Improving from 41-31 and a fourth seed is significantly harder to achieve than reaching that point from the bumbling, incompetent farce of a team the Knicks resembled for years prior to Thibodeau’s arrival on the bench.

    Barring any miracles like Kawhi or CP3, I think the most likely outcome for next year is we struggle to shoot as well as we did this year, we’re not able to get as many minutes from our best guys, and some other teams in the East get their shit together. It will be hard to get the 6th seed.

    But if we see expanded roles from IQ & Obi, and do a good job blooding three young draft picks, I will perfectly happy finishing 7th or 8th. It’s ok to spend a few years on the playoff treadmill after everything that’s gone on here. Just keep the cap free of bad contracts and bide your time.

  31. ***Is there any other knicks player in the last 10 yrs that has knicks fans “divided” in 2 fanatic camps?
    I don’t remember anyone else..
    There must be a reason about that.***

    I’m sure there were 2 camps on Sunsblogger debating whether Dragan Bender’s options should be picked up. And I bet there was a camp over at Bucksblogger that believed that Joe Alexander just needed to be coached up, and given a defined role, and developed properly by the organization. And there could even be a Pistonsblogger thread somewhere about how Stanley Johnson is the shutdown defender that every championship contender could use…

    But if JK47 was on any of those threads, he’d have a lot of provolone cheese stapled to his ass right now. Because his camp is right and all those other camps are dumb as shit.

  32. I am really interested in knowing what Boston is willing to give up to unload Kemba. I’m perfectly fine having him for two seasons if we get properly compensated bc I’m not of the opinion that a) there will be any saviors in free agency this year or next year, and b) that we’re not well positioned to push all our chips in for a disgruntled star and still have a team that can win a chip.

    But properly compensated, IMO, is first round draft picks in 2022 & 2024. This would give us two first round picks in 5 consecutive drafts (including last year). And Kemba probably won’t suck, either.

  33. wow, just noticed it’s listed to be 107 (42 c) outside tomorrow…

    those little cooler fans i bought were pretty minimally effective, just got to remember to close the windows in the morning, and open again at night…midnight tonight it’ll hit 73…12:01 am on wednesday – it’ll still be 80 outside…

  34. Hubert:
    I am really interested in knowing what Boston is willing to give up to unload Kemba. I’m perfectly fine having him for two seasons if we get properly compensated bc I’m not of the opinion that there will be many good uses for our space this year or next year. But properly compensated, IMO, is first round draft picks in 2022 & 2024. This would give us two first round picks a year for 4 straight years. And Kemba probably won’t suck, either.

    I’d be sorta down with this plan except that I hate anything that might remotely help the Celts. I seriously doubt they would give up two first rounders, though, unless it were a 3-way deal with something good coming back. But like you, I don’t think Kemba is totally finished.

  35. #But if JK47 was on any of those threads, he’d have a lot of provolone cheese stapled to his ass right now. Because his camp is right and all those other camps are dumb as shit.#

    A few months ago, Before Thibs’ team started making its thing, JK47 without any cheese involved had “called” optimists “somehow dumb” and Pessimists as realists…
    I won’t bother finding this post but it really smells like Camembert cheese right now…

  36. we are almost certainly taking a step back next year as i doubt we’d be in for the 4 seed again… i mean we did get the 4 seed this year so it ‘could’ happen again… but it will take a lot of the things that went right to repeat itself…. meaning if we’re signing vets they would all have to repeat the years noel.. burks.. bullock… rose… taj had… and that’s probably unrealistic unless we doled out a ton of multiyear contracts…. and even then it’d be unrealistic…

    if we’re relying on the backs of the kids and draft picks then we’re probably fighting for .500 or worse and that’s absolutely fine… as long as none of our young kids play terribly we’d be in decent shape for the future no matter how our record turns out… then we should be able to challenge the top of the league the following year… as we expect a second/third year jump from most of our players and RJ hitting his prime window…

  37. Continuing the midrange vs. other shots debate, let’s keep in mind that the 3PAr from D’Antoni’s 7SoL Suns teams would be by far the lowest in the league right now. Sure, it’s an efficient shot, but the average team misses 63% of them, and even the best players miss over 50%. And still even guys like Giannis keep taking them without hesitancy.

    I guess I just love offensive basketball when more shots go in than miss. The ’84-’85 showtime lLakers made 55% of their shots. It was truly beautiful to watch, even though I hated them.

    And the thing is, with the talent the players now have, many of them could light it up from the midrange if somehow 3’s became marginally more difficult, and FG%s would probably be at all-time highs.

  38. We’ve gone decades without resigning a draft pick. We can’t start with Frank.

  39. I think the way we should feel about the Knicks taking a step back next year would depend on what they do this off-season. If they stay patient and have a similar off-season to last year than a step back should be expected, finishing in the play-in tournament would probably be the most realistic scenario.

    If they make some fairly significant moves with the obvious goal to improve than finishing outside of the Top 6 would be considered a disappointment even though finishing 7th or 8th wouldn’t necessarily be that big a step back when you consider the teams who finished 5th-7th in the East all will most likely be expected to be better than the Knicks next season.

    It truly is going to be a fascinating off-season and 2020-21 season for the Knicks.

  40. ***JK47 without any cheese involved had “called” optimists “somehow dumb” and Pessimists as realists…
    I won’t bother finding this post but it really smells like Camembert cheese right now…***

    I don’t see what this has to do with the Knick at issue in this thread, who is demonstrably worse at basketball than the three scrub busts I reference in my post above. Dragan Bender was an offensive wizard compared to him. Stanley Johnson has provided all the defense but with better offense. Even Joe Alexander ranks higher per career VORP, BPM, and TS%.

    Not being able to agree that this individual person is not worth rostering is akin to not being able to agree that Biden won the election. No matter how much objective data is presented, people choose to be willfully blind.

  41. With those three choices, I voted for “au revoir.” My most preferred outcome would be a one-year deal (with a second year team option) at $3M/year. I agree with this part of JK47’s analysis.

    JK47: He has been in the league four years and one thing is clear: he is not a point guard. Like not even a little bit. He couldn’t crack a point guard rotation on a team that was starting Elfrid Payton. He is not, nor will he ever be, a point guard. He’s a defense-oriented wing, but sadly, his defense is not even that good. He can harass opposing ballhandlers pretty good, gets some steals, but he gives a lot of that defensive value back by dying on screens and making mental mistakes. Whatever defense he gives you does not make up for the fact that he forces you to play 4-on-5 on the offensive end.

    Even with all of these flaws, I think Frank is worth a roster spot on a team-friendly deal.

  42. Not being able to agree that this individual person is not worth rostering is akin to not being able to agree that Biden won the election.

    Our happiness depends on the habit of mind we cultivate. So practice happy thinking every day. Cultivate the merry heart, develop the happiness habit, and life will become a continual feast.

    hahahahahahahahahaha…just believe it, and, it will be…

    Repetition of the same thought or physical action develops into a habit which, repeated frequently enough, becomes an automatic reflex.

    i have you ever heard him speak? least motivating motivational speaker whom ever spoke :)

    actually maybe it’s stephen covey’s voice i’m thinking about…

  43. A few months ago, Before Thibs’ team started making its thing, JK47 without any cheese involved had “called” optimists “somehow dumb” and Pessimists as realists…

    This MF wants to give Frank Ntilikina a 3/18 contract

  44. Sixers look really really good. Embiid is such a load.

    I think they get to the Finals.

  45. It’s good to read that the competition committee is looking into the hunting shooting fouls by using awkward moves to draw contact thing.

  46. bidiong the not so great:
    It’s good to read that the competition committee is looking into the hunting shooting fouls by using awkward moves to draw contact thing.

    In particular, I would like the NBA to make it a “point of emphasis” to call the offensive player for pushing off with his off-arm to create space on the drive. Carmelo Anthony got called for that one frequently in 2011-14, but Trae Young (among many others) gets away with it on the majority of his drives.

  47. While I am glad to read that Becky Hammon is being considered for NBA head coaching positions, I think she (and the league) would be much better served if she were to get a rebuilding job (like Orlando) rather than thrown into the fire in Portland. If Dame is not happy with the results with any coach that he has not explicitly endorsed, I could see him saying “fire the coach or trade me”.

  48. Getting back to the theme of this thread, Matisse Thybulle is the player that we hoped Frank would be. Thybulle is a true lock-down defender and a poor, low-usage offensive player. Even with the bad offense, Thybulle makes a positive overall contribution.

  49. Mike D’antoni is a bad coach and a bad person. It would be a shame if Dame wasted the rest of his prime under him.

  50. Yeah, something’s not right with Embiid. Even with that, though, the Hawks only barely eked it out, so I still think the Sixers take the series.

  51. This finals appearance by the Bucks is going to be the least impressive of all time. It’s like when they give the Tour de France to whoever is left when the top 37 finishers get caught doping.

  52. I dunno, the Nets have always had the “if they can stay healthy” caveat. Kyrie is oft injured, Harden was an out-of-shape malingerer and Durant is coming off of an often career-altering injury. Not to mention DeAndre is washed up and Blake has no knee cartilage left. And Embiid has a long injury history as well. It’s not all that shocking that the Bucks are winning the war of attrition.

  53. Especially since they had a Giannis injury last season, too.

    But yes, at the same time, it’s a real shame that we’re not seeing these teams (plus the Lakers) healthy.

  54. Yeah, the Bucks have been the best team in the conference over the past three years, and just swept the defending EC champs. It may not be a great story, but in 2021 the name of the game is not getting hurt.

    Which brings me back to Lillard. He’s never hurt, and he rarely sits for any reason at all. That makes his max contract more valuable than pretty much anybody’s at the moment. (And, regarding the Becky Hammond post above, Lillard’s only coach that he’s ever played for is Terry Stotts. He never criticized him, and never threw him under the bus. He’s never said he wanted to play on a superfriend’s team. He has never asked to leave Portland. I’m not sure why that could be a toxic situation for a coach to enter.)

    Meanwhile, the Clippers are making the Jazz look “mediocre” in the past 6 quarters at Staples. Should be an interesting series.

    And, finally, as far as uninteresting series go, was the Jokic flagrant 2 really that controversial? Looks like the pundits were trying to drive wedges for clicks and retweets, but, objectively, Jokic wound up and punched Payne in the face. He could have knocked his nose off and sent him to the hospital if it was a half and inch to the left. Isn’t that what the Flagrant 2 rule is for?

  55. Maybe I’m a Franktimist, but I think the kid is going to go to a team like Toronto next year on a 2 yr 4mil contract and become a very useful bench player. C’est la vie!

  56. That’s cool ess, but you do know that Stanley Johnson went to Toronto and did not become a very useful bench player. Can’t really ask for a bette comp than that.

  57. didn’t think much of that mavs hitpiece … UNTIL i ran into r/nba and somehow the mavs subreddit found bob voulgaris’s reddit burner account … that’s only the start of it… they also figured out it was donnie nelson who was sourcing theathletic hit piece and that there is currently a power struggle going on….

    so that bob burner account… this burner account claims that bob was the ‘architect behind the luka/brunson picks’ and that’s why he’s gained influence in the front office… this burner account alsoo linked to a very oddly timed and very oddly detailed video on donnie nelson’s track record as gm with a username that has the date when don nelson was fired and donnie nelson was hired(u/march19_2005..) .. the video basically slams donnie for all the bad moves (the powell signs.. and the curry/richardson trade… and yes the kp trade)…

    i usually don’t like nba drama… but had too much juicy info not to share…

    sources:
    https://np.reddit.com/r/Mavericks/comments/nzt38c/um_guys/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Mavericks/comments/nw453n/donnie_2011_nelson_gm_masterclass/

  58. #This MF wants to give Frank Ntilikina a 3/18 contract#

    And a barrel of Feta cheese to treat his non believers!

  59. #I don’t see what this has to do with the Knick at issue in this thread, who is demonstrably worse at basketball than the three scrub busts I reference in my post above.#

    It has to do with Before and After.
    Projection and Reality.
    Expectations and Results.
    Regression and Improvement.
    According to Logic, previous experience and Vegas odds JK47 as many more Knicks fans rightfully expected a knicks collapse.
    Especially due to our roster.
    Guess what!
    We finished 4th!
    The odds on Ntilikina making the Knicks roster and even stay in the league don’t look so good right now.
    Is he finished yet? Possibly..
    But I’ll bet once more on the harder outcome.
    Due to his D.
    Let’s wait and see what will happen with the cheese and the fees!
    :-)

  60. #Frank Haters Teaser Alert#

    We Love You Frank!
    Please come back for 3yrs 18M!
    ;-p

  61. The last Knick first round pick signed to a second contract was….. drum roll….. Charlie Ward!

    I think Frank will end up elsewhere, likely on his own volition. He is not going to play any significant minutes with Thibs as his coach.

  62. #Ur a greek freak.#

    Or as Clyde would have said:
    Freaking and Pricking! ;-)

  63. If he leave the knicks I’d put my money going to Gobert’s Jazz

    …and building a dynasty there! ;-)

  64. This finals appearance by the Bucks is going to be the least impressive of all time.

    I wouldn’t even pencil them into the Finals. I think the stage is set for a big Kevin Durant moment tonight. The guy’s wanted to shut his haters up forever; now’s his chance.

  65. Sign Frank to a partially guaranteed deal and immediately cut him in order to end the curse

  66. The reason Jokic received the flagrant 2 was because it was involving a bit to the head. (I know, obviously.) I don’t think any sports league is going to ever take head hits lightly because of possible legal ramifications. Players are smart with all types of fouls now so they need to adjust to that. Had Jokic went at the ball with a side arm swing it would have been a different call.

  67. Wasserman’s latest mock draft has us taking Sharife Cooper at 19, Duarte at 21, Charles Bassey from Western Kentucky at 32, and David Johnson from Louisville at 58. But he also says this about us:

    Most expect the Knicks to offer some combination of No. 19, No. 21 and No. 32 to try and move up. They aren’t leaving the draft with three rookies. But New York still has to prepare as if it will be picking in the mid-first round, and Duarte suddenly looks like a desirable option for a playoff team that only has a handful of players signed for 2021-22. His age (23) will turn some off, but scouts talk about Duarte as a plug-and-play guard or wing based on his shot-making versatility (and accuracy) and toughness. He could be a cheap replacement if Alec Burks or Reggie Bullock sign elsewhere.

  68. Most expect the Knicks to offer some combination of No. 19, No. 21 and No. 32 to try and move up. They aren’t leaving the draft with three rookies.

    This kind of chatter doesn’t inspire me. Leaving the draft with three good players on incredibly team-friendly contracts would be pretty awesome. Why would a team that is so many miles off the pace be against such a scenario?

  69. Hubert: This kind of chatter doesn’t inspire me. Leaving the draft with three good players on incredibly team-friendly contracts would be pretty awesome. Why would a team that is so many miles off the pace be against such a scenario?

    I agree. I would prefer to take all 3 picks and hope they pan out as useful bench players at worst on cost controlled contracts. That would eliminate the need for hitting on good 1 year veteran contracts every off-season.

  70. Harden will try to play tonight. Not sure that’s the best idea.

    The Bucks losing to this depleted Nets team would have to lead to Bud being fired, no?

  71. Every report I see indicates Harden is out tonight.

    I still don’t know what to make of this Bucks team. I kinda think Durant can beat them single handedly tonight and buy time for his super friends to recover for game 7.

  72. Hubert, Woj just tweeted that Harden has been upgraded to doubtful but is going to practice today in hopes he can play.

  73. bidiong the not so great: I agree. I would prefer to take all 3 picks and hope they pan out as useful bench players at worst on cost controlled contracts. That would eliminate the need for hitting on good 1 year veteran contracts every off-season.

    KInd of depends how far they could move up, though, and who falls on draft night into the teens?

  74. I’d love to see the Freak destroying the Nets tonight and dunk in everyone’s face with fury.
    Refs weren’t very friendly with him on the previous game so he may have to put some foxiness in his fury to avoid the sissy charges.

  75. Obviously I am still mesmerized by his defensive potential and clearly biased. Nevertheless I am shocked that we as a whole generally don’t have any faith in his ability to effectively replace Bullock. But I would keep him..and we probably can retain him for less than it would cost to keep Bullock- but more than the vet minimum.

    Listen..I know he’s not aggressive on offense, and his 2P percentage has been bad. But he’s wired to make winning plays, and that doesn’t necessarily show up in the box score. My thought is if he starts at the 2, all we need him to do is knock down the 3, play defense, and be a periphery playmaker- that part he’s more than capable of doing. I believe if we can get a PG who can take over ballhandling duties and hit shots- Frank SHOULD do well. We’ve seen flashes on offense. Are those flashes not better than what Bullock can provide outside of 3 point shooting? If Ntilikina isn’t asked to create and handle the ball a ton, why can’t he approximate Bullock’s 3 ball? Now that we’ve got a developmental staff in place and a possible opening in the backcourt, I think they can get him ready to be a more versatile 3 & D SG. Let’s be honest prior to now- he hasn’t had a staff that was willing to focus on development. You can say he had a chance this season, but we did sign Burks and drafted Quickley- not to mention we already had 2 PG’s whose games were predicated on dribble penetration- which Thibs values. Then there was the Rose trade. So you can easily argue he’s had plenty in his way his whole career.

    I don’t think he returns though. I would like for him to return and focus on the Bullock role. I do wonder if they focused on that with him in practice though. That said- I wouldn’t break my neck to re-sign Bullock if Frank can be had for less, but we’ve gotta let him test the market first to see if we can sign him for less. Bullock will definitely get more on the open market that we paid him. He had a nice bounce back season

  76. My thinking is the Knicks don’t want to tie up roster spots with multi-year contracts with players who potentially suck. One really good player on a rookie deal is worth two mediocre players, but you need to be really damn sure about it.

    Also, the win-now mindset is concerning. Prepare for Obi-like picks every year.

  77. Frank’s wired to make winning plays as long as those plays don’t involve: dribbling, passing, shooting, or getting over a screen. Other than those minor, very specific scenarios he’s making nonstop winning plays.

  78. vincoug:
    Frank’s wired to make winning plays as long as those plays don’t involve: dribbling, passing, shooting, or getting over a screen.Other than those minor, very specific scenarios he’s making nonstop winning plays.

    Ha! I just spat my drink out lol. His play has definitely earned that

  79. My thinking is the Knicks don’t want to tie up roster spots with multi-year contracts with players who potentially suck.

    the astounding part is that the 19th and 21st picks are not even making 3mm AAV …. the bar is insanely low on these picks.. i really hope that’s not the reasoning but i wouldn’t be surprised if it was…

  80. Hubert: This kind of chatter doesn’t inspire me. Leaving the draft with three good players on incredibly team-friendly contracts would be pretty awesome. Why would a team that is so many miles off the pace be against such a scenario?

    I believe the concern is that having 3 players who will not get minutes is bad for development. It is not crazy to trade up for one draft pick who has a better chance of cracking the rotation.

  81. the astounding part is that the 19th and 21st picks are not even making 3mm AAV …. i really hope that’s not the reasoning but i wouldn’t be surprised if it was…

    It seems to have worked out last year, but yeah I’m not a huge fan of the Knicks current draft strategy. Hopefully our guy falls again.

    I’d actually guess it’s more about roster spots than contract value. Idk, maybe they have a draft value chart that says pick ‘x’ is more valuable than 19, 21, & 32.

    It makes some sense to chase the highest pick possible because the league favors 1 really good player over multiple decent players. I’d definitely think the chance of whiffing would offset it considerably though.

  82. Alan:
    Hubert, Woj just tweeted that Harden has been upgraded to doubtful but is going to practice today in hopes he can play.

    You’d think that Durant’s GSW injury would inform Harden’s decision, but no. This will not end well.

  83. Agreed. On top of that we are still seeing Chubby Harden. While he’s still been very very good when he’s played, it leaves you wondering just how good of shape is he really in. Sit this one out, James. Hopefully the extra rest will have you ready to go with the series 3-2 in either direction

  84. I believe the concern is that having 3 players who will not get minutes is bad for development. It is not crazy to trade up for one draft pick who has a better chance of cracking the rotation.

    how would they not get minutes when we only have half a rotations worth of players under contract next year?

    it generally is actually pretty optimal to trade up but we have a lot of roster spots and the draft is widely viewed as pretty flat and deep so it is probably a mistake this year in our situation to do so… esp if we can’t even get into the top 10….

  85. Alan, I am old enough to remember when the Knicks had three first round picks in a row and didn’t get a single useful player. I looked it up, and my memory was pretty close. iIt was almost in a row. They had picks 18, 19 and 21 in 1996. They picked Walter McCarty, John Wallace and Dontae Jones.

    Unfortunately, having mid first round picks not be memorable is all too common. I can see why they would want to trade up. I just find it extremely unlikely they will be able to. If you want to hope, I would say maybe the Kings would do a deal. They need defense and low costs and that’s the sort of thing you can probably find in the middle or late first round.

  86. I’d actually guess it’s more about roster spots than contract value. Idk, maybe they have a draft value chart that says pick ‘x’ is more valuable than 19, 21, & 32.

    we have like a million roster spots open… that’s what i’m saying if we’re moving up we are probably backing up the truck on multiple free agents… or we are trying the one year deal strategy again…

    and both are probably not as good as just making the damn picks in the first place….

  87. I didn’t realize that Trae Young was useless unless he’s being guarded by Frank in the last minute of a playoff game. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

  88. Most rookies suck and the Knicks want to follow-up their 4th seed with another good showing. The front office probably views that many rookies in the rotation as a liability.

    I don’t necessarily agree with their strategy, but it makes sense given their goals. You can tolerate 1 rookie in the rotation much better than 3 when trying to win games.

  89. Speaking of the #19 pick and its potential, did anyone watch enough Thybulle during the regular season to attest to whether his 20 MPG in 65 games warranted an All-Defensive Team nod? According to D-LEBRON he was the 8th-best defender in the league, just behind Covington and Noel and behind Green and Lopez.

  90. Maxey, Quickley, Flynn and Bane were drafted 21, 25, 29 and 30. and they all played significant minutes for their respective teams.

    So the idea that players drafted in the 20’s and 30’s can’t contribute immediately is false, but obviously depends on scouting and a bit of luck.

  91. Most rookies suck and the Knicks want to follow-up their 4th seed with another good showing. The front office probably views that many rookies in the rotation as a liability.

    but this is what i’m saying… why do we have this accelerated timeline?

    the raptors… the grizzlies… the nuggets … have shown that you can have a very deep roster filled with young players and even rookies and have no issue developing them if you have an infrastructure in place… the gleague is a resource we can absolutely use… we were supposed to have that infrastructure to develop our young guys given that we have all these picks…. now that we are winning but most of these guys are free agents what has changed?

    for me… none of this makes sense…. unless we are about to make a lot of mistakes in the free agent market… and if that’s the case we should be very very worried about what this trade up rumors are signaling….

  92. It’s ok with me if they actually use all their picks because I think the pickings for moving up are slim. They could also try trading some picks for a useful player. The thing is, unless it’s a blockbuster useful player, he might just be replacing someone they could have just re-signed, like Bullock. So that’s hard too.

  93. Interesting piece in the Ringer by Mahoney related to our previous discussion on the importance of the midrange game in the modern era.

  94. I’m pretty sure I’m with you on the draft picks, but that’s my guess of the FO justification. I certainly don’t think we’re in a position to punt picks yet. Plus, if it is another flat draft (and I trust you on that) then it’s especially stupid.

    Maxey, Quickley, Flynn and Bane were drafted 21, 25, 29 and 30. and they all played significant minutes for their respective teams.

    So the idea that players drafted in the 20’s and 30’s can’t contribute immediately is false, but obviously depends on scouting and a bit of luck.

    I think this actually proves my point though as this was a good year for late round picks, 2 of those guys were still pretty underwhelming compared to vets, and the other 6 presumably were even worse.

  95. Alan, I am old enough to remember when the Knicks had three first round picks in a row and didn’t get a single useful player. I looked it up, and my memory was pretty close. iIt was almost in a row. They had picks 18, 19 and 21 in 1996. They picked Walter McCarty, John Wallace and Dontae Jones.

    Ugh. I remember it well. And I was so convinced that we had two potential steals in Wallace and McCarty. Instead, all three were useless.

    I’d like to think that with Perrin involved, we would not get skunked again like that. At the same time, if there’s a guy they feel really strongly about, I’d rather they just go up and get him. I remember, for instance, a lot of chatter either right before or right after the 2011 draft (either way, close enough that it was long before he was a Future Hall of Famer) that our FO really liked Klay Thompson, but either couldn’t make a deal or just felt the price was too high to move up from where we picked Shumpert.

  96. Thibs may hate playing rookies but that doesn’t mean he’s bad at developing them. I thought he did a good job with IQ and Obi.

    No, we shouldn’t expect three rookies to make an impact next year. But next year isn’t our window for anything. Let’s just get the kids in here and keep doing what we did with this year’s kids. When a kid is ready to take on an expanded role, he’ll get the chance, like RJ did.

  97. Seems like we have enough roster spots to use all three draft picks AND bring in some vets on one year or 1+1 deals.

  98. I could also see the front office viewing Pelle & Vildoza as de facto draft picks. Add in Knox and that’s 3 roster spots with giant ?’s over them. If we add 4 draft picks, that’s 7 pretty huge question marks on our roster. And that’s not counting Obi.

    Even if we slot 2 of them onto 2-way contracts, you’re effectively betting on your 10 man rotation sustaining minimal injuries or betting those question marks step up in a big way.

    The FO seems to want a star, and they plan on luring one by being competitive. It’s not impossible to do with 4 draft picks and it may not be the right strategy, but it makes some sense.

    Idk, hopefully we’ll be able to move up a meaningful amount.

  99. The Front Office can deliver us another season of the Knicks being in the 6-9 seed range and we will all be happy as pigs in shit if we are doing it with Julius Randle, a bunch of kids we drafted, and the occasional vet on a short term deal mixed in. They don’t need to bring us a star now. Be patient.

  100. Obviously any trade up would have to be evaluated based on the specific details. I won’t say all trade ups would be bad. What I resent is the idea that we have to trade up, and especially in a draft like this where there’s not much consensus in the 6-20 range.

    I mean, a lot of the guys projected to go in our range profile as more immediate contributors than guys in the 6-15 range if we’re so worried about that.

    If we want higher-ceiling types, I still think we’re more likely to find them with multiple darts than we are by moving up in this draft unless we somehow find our way into the top 5. If I heard 5 years from now that Sharife Cooper and Jalen Springer were more impactful players than Davion Mitchell and Corey Kispert I wouldn’t be remotely surprised.

    So sure, trade up if you think it’s the only way to nab a truly special player. Going into the draft with the idea that we absolutely have to move up, though, would be a huge mistake. We don’t exactly have an embarrassment of riches in terms of rotation-level players locked up for next season, and our path to contention still almost definitely requires getting multiple contributors on rookie-scale deals.

    FWIW, I’d be very excited about the haul in that Wasserman mock. So much so that it’s not clear what individual player outside of the top 5 would have me more excited.

  101. The Front Office can deliver us another season of the Knicks being in the 6-9 seed range and we will all be happy as pigs in shit if we are doing it with Julius Randle, a bunch of kids we drafted, and the occasional vet on a short term deal mixed in. They don’t need to bring us a star now. Be patient.

    I’d be thrilled with it, but I’m not sure CP3, Kawhi, Beal, Lavine, or the other 2022 FAs would be. We’re likely capped out after 2022, so attracting a superstar this year or next is pretty important.

    To that end, it makes sense to push for the highest seed we can. Otherwise, we should look at flipping Randle next year and retooling to build around RJ.

  102. Also, if there’s no good trade ups we could always look at rolling the picks over to next year and keep the roster spots open.

  103. as far as options go… rolling over the picks and not using them this year is without a doubt the worst option available… we didn’t exactly get fair compensation on our punt this past draft and we’re still saddled with a roster gap that still needs to be filled because of it…

    playing 3 rookies in our rotation isn’t going to be the difference between 45 and 35 wins…. and almost certainly wouldn’t be the difference for a top FA to come here…. in fact if we hit on these picks we would probably immediately catapult to the top of many guys’ list and probably wouldn’t see much of a difference…. there aren’t many that teams that offers a roster that could potentially carry THEM through the life of their deal like we could…

  104. I will admit I kinda like Moses Moody and James Bouknight enough that I wouldn’t hate the idea of trading up for them if it wasn’t too expensive.

  105. “Prepare for Obi like picks every year”
    This is bad because look how great the last two 18-19 year olds they picked turned out ? Wake me up when Knox and Redacted become rotation players with actual NBA level play.

    This fascination with drafting teenagers and treating anyone older than 21 as radioactive is truly deranged. If the guy can play draft him. Many players drafted when they were 22 or 23 years old have had productive, successful , and long NBA careers- look it up. The draft strategy of picking 18 year olds who might develop in 5 years seems like fools gold.

  106. We’re likely capped out after 2022, so attracting a superstar this year or next is pretty important.

    The only way we’d be capped out after 2022 is if we vastly overpay all our own free agents or if we go all in on a trade before then. I wouldn’t rule it out, but it’s not set in stone, either. We could keep max player cap room open for a long time with some smart management.

    Otherwise, we should look at flipping Randle next year and retooling to build around RJ.

    If Randle rejects our extension offer this year, this will become a major talking point by mid season.

  107. Jack Bauer, you’re not demonstrating a proper understanding of the consensus here. We all want the best prospect, regardless of age.

    When Mikal Bridges was the oldest player in the lottery, we all loved him and hated that we took the 19 year old Kevin Knox based on youth and upside.

    And when Halliburton was the best player available, we all hated that Obi was selected based on his age and alleged NBA readiness.

    No one here wants certain ages more than others. We just hate it when a player’s age is a reason for taking him over a clearly better prospect.

  108. I do think it makes more sense to look at high floor types with our picks, unless there’s a Quickley type available who the scouts really love.

  109. here’s an example of what’s meant by an Obi-like pick:

    If Moody or Bouknight (both projected lottery picks) somehow fall to 19 and we select Chris Duarte over one of them, and if the reason is not bc we think Duarte is better but bc Duarte is more ready to contribute right away due to his age, then that will be annoying.

    But if Duarte is the best prospect available at 19, no one is going to not want to draft him bc he’s old. No one is going to say “let’s pass on this good player bc he’s 24. Instead let’s draft a shitty prospect bc he’s 19.” That’s not it at all.

  110. playing 3 rookies in our rotation isn’t going to be the difference between 45 and 35 wins…. and almost certainly wouldn’t be the difference for a top FA to come here…. in fact if we hit on these picks we would probably immediately catapult to the top of many guys’ list and probably wouldn’t see much of a difference…. there aren’t many that teams that offers a roster that could potentially carry THEM through the life of their deal like we could…

    I view our success this year as much more precarious than that. We could drop in the standings and win column even if we bring the same team back. If RJ & Randle don’t hit 40% of their 3s, if Randle misses significant time due to injury, if the invisible 6th man doesn’t show up or, or if CHI, BOS, CHA, WAS, MIA improve, then we could easily drop. We were only 1 MIA win from 6th place.

    If we end up with 3 RJ Barrett rookie campaigns, even if the picks end up being decent in the longrun, I could see us easily sliding below .500.

    A LOT went right this year. And I’m not sure KD, Harden, or CP3 would view a 35 win team coming in 10th the same as a 41 win team finishing 4th.

  111. Yeah, the issue with Obi is a lot of us thought there were better players available at 8. Not only that, but our FO wanted to trade up for Obi.

    Maybe Obi works out but we’d have been pissed if we traded up for Obi just because he was more NBA-ready (and it doesn’t appear he was more NBA-ready than Haliburton anyways).

  112. A LOT went right this year. And I’m not sure KD, Harden, or CP3 would view a 35 win team coming in 10th the same as a 41 win team finishing 4th.

    Paul is available this year, not next year.

    And we really shouldn’t be planning this off-season around making ourselves appealing to the Nets trio of free agents.

    Steph Curry probably isn’t leaving Golden State, either. No one’s coming here to save us so we might as well take what’s available and keep our options open.

  113. ***remember when the Knicks had three first round picks in a row and didn’t get a single useful player. I looked it up, and my memory was pretty close. iIt was almost in a row. They had picks 18, 19 and 21 in 1996. They picked Walter McCarty, John Wallace and Dontae Jones…. Ugh. I remember it well. And I was so convinced that we had two potential steals in Wallace and McCarty. Instead, all three were useless.***

    The guy picked at #20, between McCarty and Jones, was a two-time all star, FWIW.

    But, on the other hand, the 5 players taken before Wallace that night were Kobe, Peja, Nash, Delk, and Jermaine O’Neil (combined 30 all star appearances between them), so maybe packaging the picks to move up a few slots wouldn’t have been such a bad idea.

    (But, on the other other hand, Grunfeld probably would have traded Kobe/Peja/Nash/O’Neil to Boston for Chris Mills all the same, and history would ultimately be no different, because, as Jesse James once rapped, “WE ARE THE NEW YORK KNICKS!”)

    (And, on the final other hand, Jesse James, the shitty white rapper that ripped off another shitty white rapper to gain infamy with a generation of Knick fans is now the owner of the Atlanta Hawks?? Mind blown.)

  114. Yet this whole season somehow happened without a legit point guard on the roster until ancient DRose came on board. So, although we could backslide in some areas, we could also improve in others.

    I think the team absolutely has to get Kyle Lowry, ideally on a flexible deal, to have any shot of competing for the playoffs again. Then they will likely package their picks and move up a bit to get a shooter like Kispert. With as few moves as possible, next year could look like:

    Starters: PG: Lowry, SG: Bullock, SF: Barrett, PF: Randle, C: Mitch

    Rest of rotation: PG: DRose, SG: Quickley, SF: Kispert, PF: Obi, C: Taj

    Cheerleaders: PG: Vildoza, SG: BJ Boston, SF: Knox, PF: Trey Lyles C: Harry Giles

    Obviously a lot else could happen before the season — they somehow keep Noel instead of Taj, they don’t bring Rose back, they make another “biggish” signing (Kelly Oubre?). And a lot could happen during the season, such as Kispert playing himself into a starter’s role, Vildoza looking amazing and getting more minutes, etc. etc. But everything really hinges on getting that veteran starting point guard.

  115. Paul is available this year, not next year.

    He’s available next year of he picks up his player option.

    There’s also Beal and LaVine who both seem much more disgruntled with their situations.

    If the Nets implode, or even if they just fail to win a championship, those guys will move on. Maybe it’s the Knicks, maybe elsewhere. But it would suck to miss out on KD again because we finished 9th.

    And I think your underestimating how tricky the cap gets after 2022. Even on the extension, Randle plus Mitch and RJ will eat up a significant amount of cap space. If we make our slated 5 first rd draft picks and keep our current roster, we’re pretty much already out of max contract territory.

  116. I view our success this year as much more precarious than that. We could drop in the standings and win column even if we bring the same team back. If RJ & Randle don’t hit 40% of their 3s, if Randle misses significant time due to injury, if the invisible 6th man doesn’t show up or, or if CHI, BOS, CHA, WAS, MIA improve, then we could easily drop. We were only 1 MIA win from 6th place.

    if Randle and RJ tanks then a couple of free agents that we’re signing this year isn’t going to magically save us and make us desirable for free agents.. the desire to use our picks should be even GREATER should that happen so we can clean the slate again right?

  117. If we bring back Rose, I’m not sure we need Lowry or a superstar PG. I think we bring in TJ McConnell or even someone like Raul Neto if Vildoza looks decent or we think IQ can hold down some PG minutes.

    The nice part of adding Vildoza and bringing back Rose (assuming we do) is we would no longer have any glaring holes in our roster. Arguably, we need the most help at wing right now to replace Bullock & Burks.

  118. If RJ & Randle tank-tank, then yes I’d rather have multiple picks. If they split the difference and hit 35-37%, then having a strong bench may be the difference. I really don’t think we can understate how solid our bench was this whole year.

  119. And I think your underestimating how tricky the cap gets after 2022. Even on the extension, Randle plus Mitch and RJ will eat up a significant amount of cap space. If we make our slated 5 first rd draft picks and keep our current roster, we’re pretty much already out of max contract territory.

    we still have max contract space because RJ’s extension won’t kick in until 2023…. if we pickup mitch’s option.. and he hits rfa and we sign him to say a 4/40 deal… and randle accepts the extension… and we make all our picks… we still only have $55.7mm in commitments next year.. that number of course doesn’t count any FA’s we sign this year… but we could absolutely have max contract space if we wanted to…

    under that scenario we have something like ~20mm in commitments we can make past this year AND fit in a Lavine max…. so we have the resources to pull it off…

  120. And I think your underestimating how tricky the cap gets after 2022. Even on the extension, Randle plus Mitch and RJ will eat up a significant amount of cap space. If we make our slated 5 first rd draft picks and keep our current roster, we’re pretty much already out of max contract territory.

    That’s why we need to keep drafting and developing players. We need to have choices.

    If Randle wants $40mm/year, we can let him go and promote Obi. We can draft Isiah Jackson so if Mitch wants Clint Capela money, we can let him go, too.

    I don’t think there is any one player we can realistically acquire who’s going to turn Randle, RJ, and Mitch into a championship quartet. So maybe we don’t go all in on those guys.

  121. Re: Obi, did we pick him because he was more mature and allegedly NBA-ready than Hali or Vassell, or because the team felt he had more upside than those guys? They may well turn out to be incorrect on that. But I don’t know that an “Obi process” is necessarily going to lead to us taking lots of 22 and 23-year-olds.

  122. we still have max contract space because RJ’s extension won’t kick in until 2023…. if we pickup mitch’s option.. and he hits rfa and we sign him to say a 4/40 deal… and randle accepts the extension… and we make all our picks… we still only have $55.7mm in commitments next year.. that number of course doesn’t count any FA’s we sign this year… but we could absolutely have max contract space if we wanted to…

    I think this is what I’m saying though. We have this upcoming year to convince a 2022 FA to sign with us. After 2022, the 2023 FA season RJ has a $27M cap hold. So signing a max FA in 2023 or later becomes much harder.

    In 2022, we can offer KD or whomever a max contract without making any moves (depending of course on this season). In 2023, we no longer have max cap space unless RJ signs for significantly less than his cap hold.

  123. Re: Obi, did we pick him because he was more mature and allegedly NBA-ready than Hali or Vassell, or because the team felt he had more upside than those guys? They may well turn out to be incorrect on that. But I don’t know that an “Obi process” is necessarily going to lead to us taking lots of 22 and 23-year-olds.

    I think that’s fair. Leon Rose really loved Obi, so he may legitimately have thought he was best player available.

    I think KB and most mocks disagreed, but what we care about is Rose’s process not everyone else’s. At least for this purpose.

    Hard not to like Obi as a person, regardless. Really love the personality/attitude of RJ, Obi, and IQ. They definitely strike me as guys who will find ways to succeed.

  124. what i’m saying is the difference between replicating our success this year is essentially… noel.. burks.. bullock… rose…

    whatever room we have to play with will likely goto a FA pg or we go the trade route.. but FA is probably it.. but replicating .. burks.. bullock and noel? how many free agent dollars do you think is going to take to replace them? probably more than we can afford if we want to attract a star next offseason…

    in terms of getting enough cap room to replicate our success AND attract a FA is going to hinge on maximizing the use of all of our picks… that MIGHT include trading up for a particular player but PROBABLY means making all the picks…

    the reason being is that the veterans that will move the needle will likely need commitments past this season…. if they don’t turn into a pumpkin themselves before that time… THAT will prevent us from signing Lavine or someone similar because we wouldn’t be able to offer the max…. we only have between 20-30mm to work with… and many many roster spots to work out… it’s a numbers crunch and trading up is a huge gamble given our situation and the draft’s outlook…

  125. Hard not to like Obi as a person, regardless. Really love the personality/attitude of RJ, Obi, and IQ. They definitely strike me as guys who will find ways to succeed.

    Yeah, right now Obi looks like a mistake when Hali was there for the taking. But he no longer looks like he has no business being in the league, and he seems super likable. So I’ll root for him to take a jump in year 2, though Randle’s presence and Thibs’ reluctance (for now, anyway) to play them together complicates things. And I can see a world in which Leon, Perrin, et al looked at Obi as a guy with a higher ceiling than the other candidates, even if his floor is lower than we might have thought given his age and college success.

  126. I also puckishly voted for vet’s minimum but it’s true, no reason to bring him back other than the fact he is beautiful. He is not Thybulle as much as I wish he were.

    That Mavs gossip is excellent.

  127. whatever room we have to play with will likely goto a FA pg or we go the trade route.. but FA is probably it.. but replicating .. burks.. bullock and noel? how many free agent dollars do you think is going to take to replace them? probably more than we can afford if we want to attract a star next offseason…

    I thought we had a bit of wiggle room and then could sign some one-and-dones. But I haven’t looked at it in awhile, so I may be misremembering. I see what you’re saying though.

  128. Obi process!? Just go check if Leon’s son represents a player in this draft! :P

  129. I thought we had a bit of wiggle room and then could sign some one-and-dones. But I haven’t looked at it in awhile, so I may be misremembering. I see what you’re saying though.

    It’s all about the years, and not the money itself. Bullock at $9-10 million is fine, but he’s going to get three year offers. So is Rose. So if you match those years, even if the money isn’t crazy, it’s no longer there in 2023. It adds up quickly. So yes, if they sign one and dones, they’re fine. But they’re not getting Rose/Bullock/Noel/Burks back on one and dones.

  130. no reason to bring him back other than the fact he is beautiful.

    owen, what are you doing?!?!

    that’s the part that’s not supposed to be said out loud :)

    too funny, DSjr, knox, trier, whatever – frank, whole different story…

  131. geo: too funny, DSjr, knox, trier, whatever – frank, whole different story…

    From those 4, Trier is the one i really thought was an NBA player, so what do i know? :P
    And now that you’ve remembered me of him, i have to go google him to check what’s he up to now. ;)

  132. I’m thinking outloud here so i’m not too sure on the exact #s but here’s what the situation looks like roughly speaking:

    projected cap next year: $112.4mm
    commitments so far: RJ, Obi, IQ = 15.94mm
    draft picks= 2021 picks ~6mm 2022 picks ~2.5mm = 8.5mm
    Randle extension = 23.8mm
    Mitch contract = ~10mm (guessing)
    Total = 58.24mm

    The Zach Lavine max starts at 30% of the cap so ~33.7mm so based on the above calculation we have ~20.46mm in commitments we can dole out this offseason while fitting Lavine in… of course someone like Durant/Harden or Kawhi or whoever would be even more expensive… and thus less wiggle room… if we exercise Mitch’s option then we have 10mm more but also have to deal with his free agency which we may end up doing to maximize our room for 2022….

    So yes.. the picks are super duper valuable for this reason…. it lets us fill out our rotation cheaply and gives us flexibility…. if we miss on Lavine or the top guys there’s other options to explore and worse case scenario we will have 8-10 players under 25 in our rotation… what a terrible situation to be in!

  133. Frank was 22 last season and in a fairly small number of minutes had a WS/48 of .070, which is perfectly fine for someone his age, but might also be a result of his refusal to shoot. He shot the 3 well, but he only took 79 shots total all season, so who the fuck knows. He should probably go play in Spain for 2 years and if he keeps improving come back to the NBA. If he took a minimum deal to stay here that would be fine with me too, those type of players only hurt you if you keep playing them if they suck. It’s not like we’re rife with talent. We had Theo Pinson on the bench all year and he’s 3 years older than Frank

  134. DRed: Frank was 22 last season and in a fairly small number of minutes had a WS/48 of .070

    I don’t think people really use Win Shares or WS/48 anymore. BPM and VORP are the new hot thing and his were -2.4 and 0. On the plus side, those were both career highs so he’s improving!

  135. Frank is a deep bench asset. I would offer the minimum or so. He’s a 3rd team player. If he can find something better, c ya.

    The Knicks have picks and cap space and a core. It’s time to make a move or five.

  136. Alan: nd I can see a world in which Leon, Perrin, et al looked at Obi as a guy with a higher ceiling than the other candidates, even if his floor is lower than we might have thought given his age and college success.

    Obi was put in an untenable position — a monster inside scorer stuck in the corner to only take threes, unable to play through mistakes because of Randle’s endless minutes and Thibs’ super-short leash. It almost made me cry watching him stand there, scared someone might pass him the ball, steeling himself to throw up a moonball if they did… I mean I guess it was a low floor in terms of his D and his 3s, but it felt a little like if they made Quick play only post-ups.

    I was super-impressed Obi seemed to figure things out toward the end (playing NBA-speed defense, actually shooting 3s, cutting to the basket at opportune times). I think there’s a real NBA player in there, but it might not happen on this team.

  137. Raven, my pie in the sky (but maybe not) theory on Obi is that the coaches were basically trying to teach him how to box left handed, so that when the time came to unleash the stuff he was already good at, he’d have a much more well-rounded game. Whether that was their intent or not, a switch definitely flipped for him a few weeks before the playoffs.

  138. I think Derrick Rose was a big key for Obi Toppin’s emergence down the stretch.

  139. So much of Frank’s boxscore value came from small sample size three point shooting .

    Maybe dude is the kind of odd duck who shoots .479 from 3pt but .194 from 2pt and .444 from the free throw line but maybe those numbers are all small sample size oddities. Tom Thibodeau likes guys who play defense, and he’ll play those guys even if they’re not good offensive players, and Frank STILL only managed 322 minutes. That’s maybe the most damning indictment of him– he couldn’t even get on the floor for Thibodeau.

  140. Frank’s numbers are “strange”.
    He mostly wasn’t in the rotation but showed many times on emergency or garbage times.
    Even for a couple of seconds!
    Thibs rotation-perversions, Frank’s contract situation and his box score/analytics make it hard to be graded accurately imo.
    He had one game that blew my mind! His first one on big minutes if i remember correctly but failed to be consistent overall.
    If i were another’s team GM I’d definitely go for him.

  141. As for the Frank on Trae last secs D as I’ve said again he may wasn’t effective but at least he didn’t foul him and tried hard even to block him right after losing him.
    We ve seen Bullock on a similar situation fouling Trae in the first seconds of a full court press and making him shoot 2FT as a belated Christmas gift…

  142. 1. If I was him I’d probably want out of NY. Not that he was mistreated by the current management/coaching staff, but his overall treatment and development in NY has been terrible. That could be part of his thinking going forward. He may want a fresh start.

    2. If we keep Bullock, he would probably get buried on the bench behind him again. It makes little sense to have a backup 3&D player unless for some reason Thibs is very high on his potential to improve,

    3. If we don’t keep Bullock, I’d like to keep him as a very cheap 3&D role player with continuing upside.

    4. As to his season, he didn’t play enough minutes this year to learn a lot, but his career 3p% is 32.8%. So if any of this season’s sharp shooting from 3 was not noise (which seems more likely than not). he’s probably around a 35% 3 point shooter overall now and clearly better than 40% from the corner (43.3% career so far). IMO, that’s good enough at this stage for someone to keep looking at him at a 3&D player with upside. His 2p% and FT% this year were obviously noisy and mostly irrelevant. I doubt he got worse overall at those skills than his career average.

  143. Serbians, Turks and Greeks are the most “cuckoo” basketball fans in the world.
    Going to basketball games in Greece a few decades ago required courage and readiness for War situations.
    Flares, coins, lighters, stadium chairs and rocks thrown in the court and between opponent fans were part of every game back then.
    I’ve even seen toilet basin parts thrown in the court during games!

  144. It’s hard to say anything definitive about Frank’s 322 minutes this year, and I don’t think it’s strange that a 22-year-old was benched in favor of performing vets on a Thibs team (yes, even behind Elfrid). You can say his 3pt shooting was the outlier or that his 2pt shooting was the outlier. Either way, 22 is still pretty young even in basketball. I think we all pretty much see him as an end-of-bench guy anyway, so no need to heap it on…

    Re: drafting as leverage against players walking, I don’t really think that’s going to be Leon’s approach. It seems like he is on board with Thibs’ “win at all costs” approach, which is why I think they go hunting for a top veteran point guard and other useful players this year.

    It also seems like they value late picks less than previous FOs and possibly for good reason. There will be guys like Marcus Zegarowski, Isaiah Todd, Makur Maker, and Feron Hunt who don’t get drafted, and Leon’s crew seems to be on top of it. These are guys that can be bred as cheap, serviceable end-of-bench guys.

    In short, I think they’re going to minimize the learning curve for their new guys and try to get as many winning players as they can as soon as possible — which is refreshing!

    And I don’t think keeping max space open should be such an issue. Every year teams shuffle contracts around to make space for a star that wants to go to that team. It’s very doable. In fact, it’s very likely that at least one star will demand a trade this offseason or next.

  145. Deeefense: So if any of this season’s sharp shooting from 3 was not noise (which seems more likely than not). he’s probably around a 35% 3 point shooter overall now and clearly better than 40% from the corner (43.3% career so far). IMO, that’s good enough at this stage for someone to keep looking at him at a 3&D player with upside. His 2p% and FT% this year were obviously noisy and mostly irrelevant. I doubt he got worse overall at those skills than his career average.

    What we learned today:

    Frank’s good numbers are legit
    His bad numbers are an anomaly

    It’s hard to say anything definitive about Frank’s 322 minutes this year, and I don’t think it’s strange that a 22-year-old was benched in favor of performing vets on a Thibs team (yes, even behind Elfrid).

    Well, Emmanuel Quickley is 21, and Thibs found minutes for him. Because Immanuel Quickley is good at basketball.

  146. If I told you before the season that Randle would get votes for All-NBA, I would have been derided.

    Had I predicted that he would make 3rd team, I would have been castigated.

    Had I predicted that he would make 2nd team, I would have been called the f-word (“fanboy”).

    Of course, I predicted none of it, because no one saw this coming.

    Congratulations, Julius. The magic is in the work.

  147. Congrats to CoTY Tom Thibodeau for coaching a player who everyone at KB gave up on to 2nd team all-NBA. (I guess Randle gets some credit too. Some.)

  148. JK47: Well, Emmanuel Quickley is 21, and Thibs found minutes for him. Because Immanuel Quickley is good at basketball.

    Are they related, like Chris and Cliff Paul?

  149. Congrats to Julius – one of the top-10 players in the NBA.

  150. Congrats to Julius – one of the top-10 players in the NBA.

    i can’t remember, but, i don’t think he was even ranked top 50 by any writers’ list…

  151. Congrats to Julius – one of the top-10 players in the NBA.

    technically this just makes him one of the 4 best forwards who weren’t injured this year. But I’m just saying that bc I don’t want to pay him $40mm ;)

  152. Before the season started, people in the various online Knicks communities were hoping that Julius Randle would play well enough during the first half of the season that he could be traded at the deadline without attaching an asset.

  153. Think about how it felt when we lost game 43 bc of Jeff Green. Now Imagine being a Bucks fan and watching Jeff Green kill you in this game.

  154. I wouldn’t even pencil them into the Finals. I think the stage is set for a big Kevin Durant moment tonight. The guy’s wanted to shut his haters up forever; now’s his chance.

    I kinda think Durant can beat them single handedly tonight and buy time for his super friends to recover for game 7.

    I really wish I had monetized these predictions from earlier today.

  155. The Bucks are actually going to lose this game against Durant, a completely hobbled Harden, and basically no one else.

  156. KD allowed Harden to show what he had for the first 30 minutes. When it turned out to be an empty tank, he took over the game. Not just scoring, but essentially playing point guard.

  157. Harden’s risking his livelihood to be a decoy here.

    If the Nets win this game could we actually see them sit their stars out for game 6?

  158. Z-man:
    Meanwhile, how ’bout those Mets?

    They’re playing a highly professional brand of baseball, rarely making mistakes. Best pitching staff in MLB, and they’re getting good defense out of all the “ReplaceMets” guys who are filling in.

    Fun team.

  159. Giannis is a great talent, but not a high IQ player. As Clint once said, a man’s gotta know his limitations…

  160. From yesterday’s thread:
    ephus
    June 14, 2021 at 6:03 pm
    I like the Nets’ chances tomorrow in Brooklyn (and I do not like the Nets) — even without Irving or Harden. Here are the key moves I expect Nash to employ.

    4. KD as the ball handler on pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop plays with Blake Griffin and Joe Harris.
    .

    Obviously, I misspelled “Jeff Green” as “Joe Harris.”

  161. I remember before Durant burst his achilles there was a school of thought that we shouldn’t sign up for his “decline years”.

  162. If I’m Steve Nash, I tell everyone that KD is getting the ball in a 1-4 flat set. No picks. If the Bucks send two at the ball, flash to the rim. Otherwise, just let KD cook.

  163. I don’t want to get all “hot take” up in here, but Giannis has had a few chances now in the playoffs and hasn’t done dick

  164. I guess the whole “let Kevin Durant prove himself without being surrounded by super friends” thing is out the window

  165. KD put the Nets on his back and carried them to victory. At a minimum, there will be a Game 7 in Brooklyn. The Nets might even eliminate the Bucks in Milwaukee.

    Coach Budd did not do himself any favors with the way he coached the second half. As mentioned on the broadcast, it is inexplicable that he did not have Giannis play defense on KD at any point during that eruption. KD was shooting over-the-top of Middleton and Tucker with ease. It might have made sense to put the 7′ former DPOY on KD for a few possessions.

  166. this reminds me of that rockets warriors series where Durant went down and the rockets still folded and no one ever took them seriously again.

    Pity you signed an extension, Giannis. You’re stuck now.

  167. Imagine telling someone two years ago that Kyrie Irving would be hurt and James Harden would go 1-10 but Kevin Durant, alongside Jeff Green and Blake Griffin, would still pull the Nets through. And that the Bucks would trade over 9,000 picks for Jrue Holiday and be facing yet another ECSF exit.

  168. That was a virtuoso performance from KD, playing all 48… but yeah, the Bucks need to at the very least fife Budenholzer, even if he isn’t the biggest source of the issues they have, he also simply can’t seem to find answers. They were playing 5v4 with Harden barely able to move and still had a garbage offense.

  169. The other issue for the Bucks is that Jrue is a bad offensive PG and Middleton is inconsistent as hell.

  170. haha remember when I said that Durant’s achilles injury made that contract a no for me, dawg

  171. Harden & Kyrie are the Nets’s Elfrid Payton because KD is just so damn good that you don’t want anyone else touching the ball

  172. They had Green in foul trouble and never tried to exploit that regularly and he made them pay on the offensive end….buddenhollzer is a goner…

  173. What we learned today:

    Frank’s good numbers are legit
    His bad numbers are an anomaly

    This is a nonsensical take of what I said.

    You are just a Frank hater and don’t want an unbiased “most likely case” anyway.

    In general you expect some development from young players. He has been slowly improving his FT% all along. We also know that Frank has been working hard on 3 pointers. The small sample of 3 pointers from this year showed too sharp of an improvement for it to be legitimate. However, it is a small bit of evidence of possible improvement. So between age, work, and data it becomes more likely he’s a little better now than his career average of 32.8%. I threw out 35% just as a round number, but it could be anything in that area that’s slightly better than his career average (which a good sample size).

    On the 2p%, we have the same sample issue. However, my assumption changed because young hard working players that were slowly improving their FT% and 2p% rarely suddenly get way worse. I’m NOT giving him any credit for being better now than his career averages even though it’s likely he’s at least a better FT shooter now than early in his career.

    If I was trying to paint a better picture of him I would only use his 2p%, 3P%, and FT% from last year and this year combined. I went out of my way to downplay the possibilities by using career data.

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