Roundtable: Knicks Trade Shump and J.R.

[This round table was conducted mid-day Tuesday. As of the scheduled published date, none of the players the Knicks received have been officially waived, so some of us went on that assumption. As more information comes in, we will report on it here or in the comments below.]

Of all the tangible assets in the trade (Lou Amundson, Alex Kirk, Lance Thomas, and a 2019 second-round draft choice from Cleveland) which will be the most useful for the Knicks?

Kurylo: As per Alex Kirk’s Draft Express page “The downside, however, is that his 13.6% body fat ranked second highest among prospects invited to the NBA Draft Combine and his 48th place finish in our Athletic Testing Composite Rating supports our past assertion that he is a below average athlete.” So he’s Eddy Curry without any natural ability. Add the fact that his D-League numbers are pedestrian at best. Unless someone gets this guy doing Crossfit, he’s a complete waste. None of Lance’s Thomas’ stats [http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomala01.html] show him to be anything special either. So if he’s a worthy defender, that’s pretty much what you’re getting.

That leaves us with Amundson and the pick. Lou’s per minute stats are OK (10.1 reb/36, 2.0 blk/36, 1.0 stl/36) although his efficiency leaves a little to be desired (49.0% ts%). However he’s a considerable upgrade over Quincy Acy (a comparison of the two) and as much as I’d like to say the 2nd round pick, I’ll stick with Amundson.

Cronin: They’re supposedly waiving everyone but Lance Thomas (and possibly even him, as well), so I guess I’d say the second round pick by default.

Ephus: None of the above.

Gibberman: I’m going to wait until the Knicks make the 2019 second round pick to definitely answer this.

Udwary: The most useful asset going to the Knicks will be the roster spots that open up when they cut the players they get from the Cavs. There is definitely some intriguing players in the D-League right now that Phil might want to take a look at. Seth Curry is absolutely killing it, taking 7.7 3pt shots a game and hitting them at a 53% clip. Would you rather have a solid rebounding center who can shoot the midrange jumper, and still score efficiently, so that we can keep Jason Smith on the bench forever? Take a look at the season JaMychal Green is having for Austin. There is definitely potential diamonds out there, so hopefully we look at some of these young guys to fill roster spots.

What does this trade tell us about Phil Jackson?

Kurylo: Well it certainly doesn’t prove that Jackson is a genius from a talent perspective. But perhaps this was a trade that’s more about subtraction than addition. Removing J.R. from the team perhaps sends a message to the league that the Knicks won’t suffer fools (anymore). As a coach, the Zen Master was always keen on Jedi mind tricks through various means. Perhaps he’s found a new medium?

To go in a weird direction for a second, take the New York Jets and the upcoming draft. If New York were to take the problematic Jameis Winston with their top pick, you can easily see a future where the QB causes more problems for Gang Green than he solves. Now if it were the Giants, taking Winston (likely in a latter round) would make sense. Why? Because Big Blue has a solid organization that can withstand and perhaps mold Winston into a solid citizen. However the Jets don’t have the reputation (or more importantly strong management backbone) to take such a risk.

So what I’m trying to say is perhaps this is Jackson’s first step into turning the Knicks into a more respectable organization.

Cronin: It seems pretty clearly that Jackson’s make or break moment will be what he will do this offseason with the cap space he is collecting. So I don’t think that this trade says a whole lot about Jackson one way or the other except that he has now made three real trades (not counting the luxury tax move of Travis Outlaw to open up a roster spot for Travis Wear) and they’ve all been…just okay. It would be nice to see a Knick trade be a clear win for once, but I can’t really begrudge Jackson much for that.

What he does this offseason will be the real test.

Ephus: To me, it says that Phil Jackson has no special place in his heart for CAA and its clients. That is a good thing.

Udwary: It tells us that we should temper our expectations a bit on the magic of Phil Jackson. As Knicks fans, we are too used to lopsided trades (although we’ve always been on the wrong side of them). This was a realistic return for the value we were sending out. I don’t think we should complain too loudly about that considering the trades we have been accustomed to.

On Basketball Reference’s Knicks page, I predicted “Cole Aldrich, this is your year.” Now that Aldrich is pretty much our defacto center for 2015, is this Cole’s year?

Kurylo: Oh God Yes!

Seriously though, here is Aldrich’s per-36 stats over the last 10 games (9 starts):
11.0 reb, 2.6 ast,1.6 atl,1.9 blk, 2.6 to, 3.9 pf,15.2 pts, 56.3% ts%

That’s good enough to be an NBA starter, no? Honestly, I’d like to see what the defense is like with Aldrich/Amundson together on the floor. I’ll work on my Candy Crush skills while the team is on offense.

Cronin: I worry that it might be so much his year that the Knicks might find themselves in a difficult situation regarding retaining Aldrich for next season. They have Early Bird Rights for Aldrich, but that only allows them to exceed the cap up to the Mid-Level Exception. The way Aldrich has been playing, he might get an offer for more than that and since the Knicks are definitely not cutting into their precious, precious cap space to bring Aldrich back, there is a possibility that Aldrich might play himself off the team. One thing I’d really like to see from Aldrich is for him to improve his conditioning. He’s been in the league for years now, there’s no excuse to have the stamina of Michael freakin’ Sweetney.

Ephus: During the off-season, I hoped that the Knicks would give Aldrich a two-year deal with the second year being a team option. I do not think he had a lot of alternative choices. Instead, they are going to have to bid for him. I think he is going to perform in the way that Koufas/Mozgov would in the same minutes. That probably gets a 3 year MLE deal.

Udwary: Hell yes! Assuming Cole doesn’t keel over to a heart attack, he is finally getting the minutes he deserves on this team, and is producing as he always has. It’ll be interesting to see what kind of offers Cole will get at the end of the year, but he is at the very least a capable 20-25 minute backup and someone should offer him more than the veterans minimum. So far, he is also the poster child of the value of per minute statistics, and vindication for all the Knickerbloggers who have been yelling his name the past two seasons.

It’s the year 2025. Give us your summary of Shumpert’s NBA career up to this point.

Kurylo: Well it appears that former Knicks Iman Shumpert’s basketball career is over. Shumpert Facetweettubed his retirement from his Cuban villa. The former Knick, Cavalier, and King made his name on the basketball court as an All Star in China and then later in Germany playing for Dirk Nowitzki’s owned and coached championship team, Bayern Munich. In the U.S., Iman received notoriety for his testimony in the J.R.Smith trial, where Shumpert’s detailed J.R.’s erratic behavior was publicized by an HBO documentary: “Basketball Star to Porn Star: The Story of J.R. Smith”. Shumpert considered playing for Robert Kraft’s Pyongyang’s Patriots, but politely declined the offer.

Cronin: His career has seemingly matched the Knicks’ seasons as a whole in his four years in the league. In his first year, he was an exciting player with seemingly a lot of potential. In his second year, he was just flat out good but injuries took their toll. In his third season, he was very disappointing. And in his fourth season, he was injured and godawful.

Ephus: Shumpert looked like a great basketball player, but the results were never as good as the appearance. He was a walking contradiction. Great one-on-one ball defender who could not get over screens. Super athlete who could not finish in traffic. Gregarious rapper who was super-sensitive to criticism. But there were stretches when he could light up the court. He never lived up to the 4 year / $32 million contract that Utah gave him, but he has become a beloved member of the SLC community.

Gibberman: Confusing. Watching him airplane the Boston Celtics home in the first-round of the 12-13 playoffs is probably the top Knicks moment of the last 15 years. In those playoffs versus the Celtics and Pacers you saw exactly how Shumpert could be a positive contributor on very good teams. Play solid defense with knock down spot up shooting from three-point range. After Anthony kept them in Game 6 versus the Pacers, Shump was the one in the second half who almost stole the win turning into a blazing ball of fire behind the arc. Fun times, man.

Udwary: Shumpert is an easy guy to root for, but at this point of his career he seems to be a mediocre NBA player. At best he is a defensive specialist who won’t kill you with high usage chucking. The complete lack of development in his offensive game through his first 4 years is telling. He just isn’t a good shooter, and despite his great athleticism, he has a difficult time finishing at the rim. He’s one of those players that you look at and believe that he has so much potential, and he just needs to “put it all together”, then you realize he’s an 11 year veteran on the downside of his career. I will definitely miss rooting for him, but he wasn’t ever going to be a major contributor on this team going forward.

Grade the trade on a scale 1-5.

Kurylo: I give it a 3. I don’t think the Knicks have gotten better in a tangible sort of way. However I like the direction this takes the team. Shumpert has been untapped potential that never really emerged. J.R. Smith has long outstayed his welcome. In one sense I would have liked to see another pick or even a decent per-minute guy come back to New York. But then again I want this team to lose as many games as possible.

Cronin: 2.5. It’s not bad but nor is it good. The return for Shumpert was underwhelming, but I understand that $2 million of cap room was a big deal for Jackson, so it probably was something that needed to be done.

Ephus: 3.5. I believe that JR Smith has the gifts to be the second best player on a strong playoff team. He is literally his own worst enemy. And it was going to get really ugly around here. Shumpert is going to command at least Avery Bradley money this off-season, which the Knicks clearly did not want to pay. I expect both JR and Shumpert to have games that make us wonder, “What might have been?” But, I doubt that either would have been a useful part of the team going forward. And JR might have exploded at any moment.

Gibberman: 1. They got nothing, literally nothing for two guys that have been proven NBA rotation players. If the money gets used effectively this summer I reserve my right to make that number higher. If the money gets used poorly I’m making it a -5000.

Udwary: 3.0. It is what it is. They got back something they value (cap space) for two players that didn’t fit into their long term plans. I wouldn’t say it’s a good or bad trade. We’ll see how they fill out the open roster spots for the rest of the year, and how they use the cap space this trade generated.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

105 thoughts to “Roundtable: Knicks Trade Shump and J.R.”

  1. 3.0. It is what it is. They got back something they value (cap space) for two players that didn’t fit into their long term plans. I wouldn’t say it’s a good or bad trade. We’ll see how they fill out the open roster spots for the rest of the year, and how they use the cap space this trade generated.

    Then you should have gone 2.5 like me!

  2. Arithmetically speaking, 3.0 is the right grade. Is the perfect average between good and bad :)

  3. I love the comment by one of the Knicks’ beat writers that LeBron signing off on acquiring JR shows that he at least has a good sense of humor

  4. Arithmetically speaking, 3.0 is the right grade. Is the perfect average between good and bad :)

    Yup, 2.5 would be appropriate if it were grading from 0-5. Gotta be a stickler for numbers!

  5. Should have left these takes on the burner a little longer I think. Didn’t come out quite hot enough. A little too reasonable I’d say.

    It’s funny to me that Shump’s Knicks career went out with such a whimper. I wish Jon Abbey was around today to tell us his thoughts, as he was always Shump’s biggest fan, but I remember debates about whether Shump would merely be a perennial DPOY candidate, or whether he would do it while also being a strong offensive player, aka a pseudo-Paul George. He was seriously a shining beacon of hope for a couple seasons there, and now he’s gone and I’ve seen more discussion of JR’s greatest tweets than of Shump prior to this roundtable. Anyway only Kurylo seemed to get the 2025 part of the Shump prompt, but I’ll say that for as bad as he has been so far it’s not hard for me to see Shump turning it around. It has always been easy to visualize him on a good team, because he’s such a natural 3 and D type player (although granted the 3 part is slightly lacking). If he comes out humbled and motivated by this trade he’s going to have a big chance in Cleveland to salvage things. His career could go pretty much any direction from here, but if I was a betting man I’d still bet on him being an important player on some good teams before his day is done.

  6. I think Z-Man is Shump’s biggest fan.

    But yeah, I see that we all misread Mike’s question vis a vis Shump.

  7. Looking to this summer, the most worrisome part of Phil’s performance to date is his player evaluation. Take non-vet min players he’s signed: 33,000 minute 30 yo Melo at max/no-trade clause acknowledging no real return first year, 7m Calderon on 3 year deal, and 3m on Jason Smith. And it’s not like he’s hit a double with any of the vet min signings or traded players except Cole, his “emergency” center. It might be that Phil is mistakenly picking players for his system instead of just picking the best players and then fitting the system to those players. The latter is what distinguishes Pop and Carlisle over time.

    All that said, Phil’s ineptitude to date could redound to our benefit if we draft an impact player and are lucky in free agency. Keeping Calderon and signing Monroe (Triangle fit, lousy defender like Calderon and J. Smith) would not be bad luck – it would be plain dumb. Let’s hope Phil’s trying to dump Calderon offering a smorgasbord of sweeteners: Prigs, Larkin, Early, Greek, Labeyrie, 2019 pick. And then uses 35m cap to target players who look like they may be attainable (e.g., Mathews, Beverley, Draymond). An 8 man-rotation of Beverley, Mathews, Melo, Draymond, Okafor or Towns, Cole, Timmy, 3m room exception would be more than decent.

  8. I don’t mind Calderon-yes, he may be aging, but he’s shown high level NBA skills during his career. So that’s a fuckup, but a defensible one to me at least. The Carmelo extension was obviously a catastrophe from day 1. We should have let him walk. But how many people here wanted that?

    And Jason Smith was a waste of a roster spot from Day 1. I have no idea what Phil was thinking with that one. Smith is gone next year, though, so big picture it doesn’t matter. And as the cap goes up, maybe Calderon is moveable this offseason.

  9. @5

    The scale is 1-5, not 0-5. So 3 is the middle.

    @8

    I was just going to change the question after the fact, but I really liked what I wrote.

    @6

    And yes I wrote the question! Sometimes in life you have to pat yourself on the back. ;-)

  10. “Let’s hope Phil’s trying to dump Calderon offering a smorgasbord of sweeteners: Prigs, Larkin, Early, Greek, Labeyrie, 2019 pick.”
    Larkin, Early, Greek, Labeyrie, 2019 pick? So, now the direction that we want to go is to dump the type of raw young guys that other teams try to develop? I’m confused. I thought that we wanted to acquire as many young assets as possible and try to find diamonds in the rough, polish them into productive NBA players who outplay their cheap rookie contracts, and add those “value guys” to a few top notch expensive players. I guess not. Let’s dump all of these young guys and try to build a team through free agency.

  11. I don’t mind Calderon-yes, he may be aging, but he’s shown high level NBA skills during his career. So that’s a fuckup, but a defensible one to me at least.

    The past 3 years for 3 different teams he was a net minus. Those teams were all better when he was not on the floor. What GM/Prez signs a 33yo to a 3 year deal in the face of that stat?

  12. I don’t believe Calderon was negative for Toronto in 2012-13, but yes, in 2011-12 and 2013-14 he was in the negative according to 82games’ various plus/minus stats. His defense really killed him in Dallas.

  13. I don’t believe Calderon was negative for Toronto in 2012-13, but yes, in 2011-12 and 2013-14 he was in the negative according to 82games’ various plus/minus stats.

    In 2012-2013, he was net -2.4 on Raptors and net -6.8 on Pistons.

  14. I always look at plus minus statistics for a game because they tell me something about what went right or wrong for the Knicks. But they have big limitations. For example, in one recent game, I’ve forgotten which one, the Knicks starters were all negative and the bench was all positive. But that didn’t mean the starters were worse than the bench. Instead, the Knick bench out played the opposing bench, but the starters couldn’t outplay the opponents starters.

  15. I always look at plus minus statistics for a game because they tell me something about what went right or wrong for the Knicks. But they have big limitations.

    Plus/minus over an extended period of time is the best stat to evaluate players like Calderon and Beverley. If a player’s close to average on defense, then WS and WP are better. Notice Jowles is silent on WP star Calderon who is barely a plus player over his career.

  16. 3 years with 3 different teams? Calderon sucks on D. I don’t need net ratings to tell me that. How he sucks on D depends a lot on the guys around him.

  17. If we could clear that contract. That definitely opens up some mid level slots. I also saw that leonard wasnt pleased with the Spurs offers so far….hope?

  18. 3 years with 3 different teams? Calderon sucks on D. I don’t need net ratings to tell me that. How he sucks on D depends a lot on the guys around him.

    You need net ratings over a long enough period of time to tell you whether his offense outweighs his defense. Calderon and an aging Melo defending 3s is not a prescription for success. Phil may believe his legacy is tied more to the success of the Triangle on the offensive side than the overall success of the Knicks.

  19. Yeah, year after year we’ll get all new guys, trying to build the perfect team around Carmelo Anthony for the triangle offense.

    Long after Phil is gone, his debacle in NY will be a vague memory on his profound career, and he’ll be $60 million richer.
    We”ll still be here, moaning and complaining about how knicks still suck. MSG will sell out every night.

  20. I stand by my answer on Shumpert. In 2025, he will be remembered (to the extent he is remembered at all) as a guy who looked the part but never put it all together for an extended period. I also think (with diminishing confidence) that (1) he will be signed by Utah this off-season, (2) he will be a fan favorite despite meh production, (3) he will make SLC his post-career home, and (4) he will succeed Mia Love as congressman from Utah.

  21. You need net ratings over a long enough period of time to tell you whether his offense outweighs his defense.

    On 3 different teams in 3 years? And we’re talking raw plus minus? That can’t show you that. I get what you’re saying, and Calderon has been a disappointment, but I don’t think basic on/off numbers can tell you what you think they do. You remember ruru’s on/off numbers for Metta World Peace?

  22. On 3 different teams in 3 years? And we’re talking raw plus minus? That can’t show you that. I get what you’re saying, and Calderon has been a disappointment, but I don’t think basic on/off numbers can tell you what you think they do. You remember ruru’s on/off numbers for Metta World Peace?

    Yes metta is one of those players for whom raw plus/minus was also appropriate. Problem is metta was shot as a player when he arrived here; he was barely a decent defender. When you’re at the edge of the cliff or have fallen off it, gaudy career net plus doesn’t really matter.

  23. @21

    OMG Zach Lowe agrees with you so you must be right. Like how Zach Lowe predicted the Cavs would win 60+ games with ease like everybody on this board. And how he predicted the Hornets would be better this year because of the addition of Lance Stephenson like many on this board.

    Donnie explain to me how Phil Jackson trading Chandler for the No. 34 pick, the No. 51 pick in the 2014 draft and the No. 17 pick in the 2013 draft means he doesn’t value assets and young players. I’d love to hear how he only cares about cap space when taking on long-term salary in that deal.

    Lowe says a lot of shit, but he doesn’t mention any specifics. What kind of “haul” was Shumpert going to command in trade when Rondo is going for Wright and a 1st rounder and Deng is going for two 2nd round picks? Is it possible that Jackson valued getting rid of JR more than getting a second round pick for Shump because he figures he can buy back in with the $3m in cash he has?

    Phil also created trade exceptions in both of those deals that can be used to help facilitate trades and perhaps acquire 2nd round picks in the process. You’re judging the trade based on your expectations of what will happen rather than seeing how it actually plays out.

  24. NB: that doesn’t mean he’s wrong (I agree that Calderon’s been break-even at best over the past few years and taking him was a mistake because PJ was going for “fit” over “quality, value-efficient player”), but it sure makes me skeptical.

    Regarding Shump or Chandler, you don’t need to have insider information to know that their value as trade chips was horribly mishandled by PJ and prior Knicks GMs. What Donnie is saying is why even bother to package Chandler with Felton or Shump with JR when you can just eat the latters’ contracts, trade the former for better assets, and then do a proper rebuild–of course that would only make sense if we didn’t sign Mega-Max Melo. Even post MMM, Chandler was probably undervalued, and could’ve fetched more if we just held on to Felton or talked to other teams.

    It bears repeating that Phil is on a 5 year plan until he states otherwise and that’s what we’re stuck with.

  25. The Knicks are sooooooo bad that we’ve spent the last three days arguing over the world’s most mundane trade. Because a salary dump is more exciting than watching these Knicks play.

    Seriously, let’s chill with the over-analysis for a bit. The questions we’re asking have empirical answers which will make themselves clear in due time.

  26. Reminder that Zanzibar sees fit to use nothing other than +/- when he evaluates players.

    Not true at all. In this very thread, I stated that when players are close to average in defense, that WS and WP are better. It’s players who are at the extremes on defense for which plus/minus is the better stat where you have data over a reasonably long enough period of time. Look at Calderon’s WP stats and raw plus/minus stats over his career and tell me which you think is the better indicator of his value. In fact, addition of Calderon + Dalembert > loss of Tyson in terms of wins produced. Jowles?

  27. Also Dalembert’s been bad but I find it pretty crazy that there might’ve been literally zero interest from other teams

    I guess it could’ve been common knowledge that we were going to waive him but still.

  28. Once other teams knew that Dalembert was likely to be waived, they were not going to make an offer. He will quickly get picked up by someone after he clears waivers.

  29. I like that we waived everyone we got. Aside from the fat guy I didn’t see even a bit of upside to them, and we’ve already filled our fat guy slot with Cole. So who will be the two other members of the Langston Trio?

  30. So Berger is reporting that Jackson wants to make another run at Jackson (Reggie that is)

    Sounds fine and dandy, but what could we possibly offer OKC? Hardaway? Our 2019 2nd round pick? Doesn’t sound very likely.

  31. Cole has gone from being the only good center on the roster to being the only center on the roster, so we do need another big body. I like Khem Birch if we’re talking D-League signings, but I’m open to suggestions.

  32. but they got next to nothing for a solid young player, and they could have had $20 million in space this summer even with Smith around. That’s poor asset management, even if Shumpert had worn out his welcome in New York.

    That Quote is from Lowe’s article. Who the fuck says Shumpert is a “solid young player”? Hes a young player, but there is nothing solid about him. There goes that NBA reputation monster again.

  33. OKC is over the tax threshold and notoriously cheap. So we could offer them a way to save money. Is Reggie Jackson really worth anything?

  34. Regarding Shump or Chandler, you don’t need to have insider information to know that their value as trade chips was horribly mishandled by PJ and prior Knicks GMs. What Donnie is saying is why even bother to package Chandler with Felton or Shump with JR when you can just eat the latters’ contracts, trade the former for better assets, and then do a proper rebuild–of course that would only make sense if we didn’t sign Mega-Max Melo. Even post MMM, Chandler was probably undervalued, and could’ve fetched more if we just held on to Felton or talked to other teams.

    Like you said previous GM’s bungled Shump’s value. That’s not on Phil.

    Both Shump and Chandler are expiring players. Those players have very limited value in the current trade environment. Both Rondo and Deng in the last two years have gone for roughly the same amount of assets and young players that we ultimately got for Chandler this summer. I don’t view that as a bungle by Phil. Calderon may be a bungle so it would be fair to criticize him for taking on that salary commitment.

    Shump was given a fair chance by Phil and over 23 games he proved again that he is unreliable when given a prominent role which he desires so much. He also regressed massively on defense. Until I see what Phil does with the cap space and exceptions it’s hard to say we just dumped him for nothing.

    Cap flex isn’t nothing and we still don’t know what Phil is going to do this summer with the space. I doubt many people expected him to take on a salary commitment long-term when he traded for Calderon so I think it’s unfair to assume Phil’s just gonna blow it all in one go this summer.

    And hopefully our pick amounts to something.

  35. OKC is over the tax threshold and notoriously cheap. So we could offer them a way to save money. Is Reggie Jackson really worth anything?

    The only thing I like about Jackson is that he is likely worth more than his cap hold, so if the Knicks intend on building through free agency, it serves them well to have a starter already locked in before they have to get more. So if he’s, say, a $10 million player, it helps that his cap hold is only $6 million.

  36. khem birch/jamychal green, seth curry would be my 3 d-league choices for our 2 roster spots.

  37. Goldsberry has documented the Kobe assist. Only it is the Harden assist.

    As of January 1, Harden’s close-range field goal percentage ranked a mediocre 21st within a group of 27 NBA players who had attempted at least 200 shots within eight feet of the hoop. But a closer examination reveals that, incredibly, the Rockets retrieve a ridiculous 55 percent of Harden’s close-range misses, which is by far the highest share for any volume shooter in the league. Put another way: Harden converts only 54 percent of his interior chances, but when you consider that freakish offensive rebounding rate, a whopping 79 percent of his close-range attempts result in either a bucket or a fresh 24 for his team.

  38. yeah i don’t like reggie jackson that much honestly I don’t see what he does for us besides assists, subpar defense, and chucking.

    Then again he would fit perfectly into this organization.

  39. That Quote is from Lowe’s article. Who the fuck says Shumpert is a “solid young player”? Hes a young player, but there is nothing solid about him. There goes that NBA reputation monster again.

    His entire part about Shumpert is a bit much.

    But he’s long-armed and tenacious, he can guard multiple positions, and he should grade out as quite good on that end if he can just avoid his bad tendencies — gambling for steals and losing focus off the ball as his man cuts backdoor.

    Yes I’m sure if Shumpert does all the mind bogglingly stupid shit he does on defense he can be very good on that end. That’s what we’ve been saying for the past 3.5 years. I don’t think David Blatt with Lebron barely trying on that end half the time are going to be the ones to extract it from him this year and after this year Cleveland is going to have to make an expensive decision on him.

    Shumpert can hit enough open 3s on offense, and he has shown some secondary playmaking chops — especially earlier this season in the triangle. He can’t run an offense on his own, but if LeBron bends the defense away from Shumpert and then kicks the ball to him, Shumpert can create something off the dribble. He’s a willing and smart passer in tight spaces, and a decent enough pull-up shooter from midrange when the shot clock is running down. He’s been turnover-prone, and he barely gets to the line, but he should be able to keep things moving in a background role.

    Shumpert won’t be in a secondary role. He’ll be at best the 4th option when Lebron gets back and considering the overall lack of movement in their offense he’ll be reprising his role as the stand still corner shooter in Woodson’s offense.

    He is a good passer, but I don’t know how much of an opportunity he’ll get to flash that.

    He’s a great pull-up mid-range shooter. Awesome. I’m sure that Cleveland will run sets for him to do that.

  40. khem birch/jamychal green, seth curry would be my 3 d-league choices for our 2 roster spots.

    I would be absolutely giddy if that happened. Someone has to pick up Curry soon, right? The guy is killing it!

  41. Goldsberry has documented the Kobe assist. Only it is the Harden assist.

    It’s amazing what you can do when you have Dwight Howard and Terrence Jones on the court at the same time, right?

  42. Yeah, that he hasn’t been picked up already strains credulity. how do teams look at this kid’s D-league tenure and his 50-50-90 splits at high usage and say “nah we’re gonna stick with Shannon Brown”

  43. Someone really does have to give Curry a chance. It’s ree-donk-you-less that he’s not on some team by now.

    Today’s the big day when we learn what players other teams are cutting loose. The deadline is tonight. So don’t expect the Knicks to use up their other two free spots until they’re sure no one interesting gets cut tonight.

  44. I still want to know what analytics mad scientist Daryl Morey was looking at when he said “You know what we need-Josh Smith!”

    I’m all about this, though:

    “Being slightly “inefficient” within an extremely efficient area, it turns out, is better than being efficient inside an inefficient area. ”

    No shit. This is why being slightly more efficient within an inefficient area (Kobe, Bargs et al) is bad.

  45. I feel like Dwight would’ve thrown a shit-fit if Morey didn’t pick up Smith because they’re so tight but for all of Morey’s analytical bona fides he’s made a couple boneheaded moves–trading for Steve Francis (something something george santayana something something) and trading Nic Batum for Donte Green being ones I can think of off the top of my head. So he’s not immune from idiocy but it takes someone special to sign THE J-Smoove

    There’s a common sense maxim when it comes to basketball GMing that I would follow and it goes thus: If the Knicks did it, don’t you dare fucking do it.

  46. I still want to know what analytics mad scientist Daryl Morey was looking at when he said “You know what we need-Josh Smith!”

    It looks like he’s paying Smith 2m on a 1 year deal. You don’t have to be wall street mad scientist to figure out there isn’t much to lose here. Just cut him if it doesn’t work out and he’s a problem child.

    This is why being slightly more efficient within an inefficient area (Kobe, Bargs et al) is bad.

    And that could be extended to play types. The biggest problem I’ve had with Melo is lack of self-awareness. He should have decreased the % of ISOs to more PnRs where he is ball handler or dive/pop guy. Not only would his efficiency improve but he would also involve at least one other of his teammates.

  47. You don’t have to be wall street mad scientist to figure out there isn’t much to lose here.

    Except more basketball games and the promising youngster you cut to add him.

  48. “If he comes out humbled and motivated by this trade he’s going to have a big chance in Cleveland to salvage things”
    And this is the thing that pisses me off the most about Shumpert. There is a 50-50 chance that he gets his act together and has a long and very productive NBA career. If he does that, we’ll all be pissed that he didn’t do it for the Knicks and we’ll all be complaining about how stupid it was for the Knicks to give away such a good player. (which is why, if he had 2 years left on his rookie deal, I would have been in favor of keeping him.) There’s also a 50-50 chance that he’s out of the league in 3 years and we’ll all be talking about how dumb it was for us to think that he was going to be good.

  49. “OMG Zach Lowe agrees with you so you must be right.”

    Sorry, but I have to respect Zach Lowe’s opinions and sources a bit more than yours. Hope you’re not offended. I just know his work better. All I know about you is that you’re like 24 years old and a Knick fan, so you’re obviously clinically deranged. (joke).

    “Donnie explain to me how Phil Jackson trading Chandler for the No. 34 pick, the No. 51 pick in the 2014 draft and the No. 17 pick in the 2013 draft means he doesn’t value assets and young players. I’d love to hear how he only cares about cap space when taking on long-term salary in that deal”

    Well, the #17 pick in last years draft is moot because Phil declined his option. That leaves the two 2nd round picks, which aren’t bad to have if it’s the best Chandler can fetch, but, once again, packaging him with Felton limited the return. I’m not sure if that’s something that can even be argued.

  50. “Shumpert going to command in trade when Rondo is going for Wright and a 1st rounder and Deng is going for two 2nd round picks?”

    I saw you make this comp in yesterday’s thread. I don’t think it works though. Rondo and Deng are both older, in decline, and a lot more expensive. Shumpert is young, still cheaper, and, as Lowe’s opinion verifies, still seen by some as a plus defender and useful basketball player.

    You seem certain that dumping JR Smith’s option year is the best we could do with the “asset” of Shumpert. You may be right. I don’t know what goes on behind the closed doors of NBA front offices. What I do know is that a matter of months ago OKC’s 1st rouser was on the table for him. I also know that since then Thaddeus Young was traded for a 1st round pick. And Carlos Delfino was traded for a first round pick. And Dion Waiters was traded for a 1st round pick. And last year Jrue Holiday was traded for not one but two 1st round picks. And Louis Scola was traded for a 1st round pick + 2 other useful young players. And TDDWTDD was traded for a 1st round pick. And some brilliant team traded a 1st round pick for the great Andrea Bargnani. And even Doc Rivers, who retired from playing basketball back in 1996, got traded for a 1st round pick.

    So I don’t think it’s that far-fetched that Iman Shumpert, frustrating to watch develop as he was, could have yielded something- anything!- of value in return.

  51. And this is the thing that pisses me off the most about Shumpert. There is a 50-50 chance that he gets his act together and has a long and very productive NBA career. If he does that, we’ll all be pissed that he didn’t do it for the Knicks and we’ll all be complaining about how stupid it was for the Knicks to give away such a good player. (which is why, if he had 2 years left on his rookie deal, I would have been in favor of keeping him.) There’s also a 50-50 chance that he’s out of the league in 3 years and we’ll all be talking about how dumb it was for us to think that he was going to be good.

    Shump’s attitude really soured me on him over time as well. As a rookie it was easy to see it as just a positive. We had this precocious rookie who wasn’t afraid of anyone. He thought he could guard DRose, and that only made it cooler when he actually did it. But when his game stagnated and he seemed to be looking at everyone but himself for an excuse, the injury, Woodson not being nice to him, the trade rumors (I admit there may be some conflation of Shumpert’s attitudes with his defender’s attitudes here) that same confidence started to seem a lot more like overconfidence. He looks to me now like a guy whose own belief in his abilities has led him to think he’s a star when in reality he’s a supporting player on the worst team in the league and hasn’t gotten better since he came in the league.

    I’m verging well into speculative territory here but I’ve long gotten the feeling from Shump that he has a lot on his mind other than working on his game. I hope being traded for bupkus, away from the bright lights of NYC, along with the impending realization of how the rest of the league sees him that FA inevitably represents will light a spark under him to focus on basketball a little more.

  52. Also Dalembert’s been bad but I find it pretty crazy that there might’ve been literally zero interest from other teams

    Absolutely. He’s a good rim protector, and some teams need that. I’m surprised Cleveland didn’t want him as part their deal.

  53. @Donnie

    I see your points, but I don’t agree with them.

    A matter of months ago OKC’s first was on the table because they still would have had a 1.5 years before he hit FA. This is basically the same offer they made for Waiters.

    Thaddeus Young was traded for a first round pick because Minnesota had a misguided feeling they could make the playoffs this year, a position from which they have since shifted. He also is largely viewed around the league as a better player than Shump.

    Delfino was part of the Jared Dudley salary dump that helped acquire a first round pick. I think we both know that the Knicks aren’t ready to take on long-term salary yet in exchange for a late first rounder. We disagree on this strategy, but I think we can both accept this as fact. Delfino’s salary was stretched by the Clippers I believe.

    Douglas was traded for a heavily protected first round pick that would turn into two 2nd round picks if Philly missed the playoffs last year and this year which they most certainly will.

    From what Lowe said in his piece Jackson heard trade offer for Shump and whatever he got offered didn’t outweight the cost for him of getting JR away from this team. My assumption is that the only teams interested in Shump were contenders and they were offering a 2nd round pick or two for him likely to be in the high 40’s or beyond. The Knicks probably feel, with some justification, they can buy those very picks with the $3m in cash they have.

    You’re presuming that Jackson doesn’t care about draft picks when his first trade on the job indicates he does value youth and picks. In this case maybe he feels the boost in cap flex, losing a player in JR he felt hurt the team with his presence and Shumpert who he soured on after giving him extended run this year was a better offer. There’s too many variables here to determine that this trade is classic Knicks not valuing youth and doing stupid shit.

  54. 1. Phil Jackson wanted JR Smith off the team ASAP. That is why he traded him. Bad character to PJ is cancer, and you have to treat it aggressively or it will spread to the team and young’uns. (don’t bring up Rodman, etc, because JR is just not that competitive or in the same league)
    2. He may have gotten a better deal for Shumpert in the future, but this was his value now among other teams and this was the quickest deal to get JR out.
    3. He is right. Good, solid teams (e.g., the Bulls and Spurs) don’t have JR-type players. They take good players and make them better by making them more serious and professional. They don’t have the best draft picks, but (A) they NEVER MISS A DRAFT, and (B) their picks end up WS studs through player development in a good culture. (see: Tiago Splitter, Kawhi Leonard, Taj Gibson, Jimmy Butler, the list goes on)

    Building team culture and excorcising demons is a necessary part of our team’s future. We have a few to go, but the bad-character players are going to be kicked out first.

  55. May seem silly for Cavs but not sure it is. They desperatelyneed Love to stay this year and Shump Plus Moz could matter. Not to mention subtraction of Waiters, who is really bad.

  56. Am I the only one who is really looking forward to our next game against the Sixers?

    I am going to the Knicks-Sixers game in Philly in two weeks :) Should be a smorgasbord of ineptitude!

    The biggest problem I’ve had with Melo is lack of self-awareness. He should have decreased the % of ISOs to more PnRs where he is ball handler or dive/pop guy. Not only would his efficiency improve but he would also involve at least one other of his teammates.

    Melo DOES have self-awareness! His “brand”! His numbers! Hero ballin! And this!

    And this gem of exasperation from Calderon, at 1:10 of this video

  57. Bad character to PJ is cancer, and you have to treat it aggressively or it will spread to the team and young’uns. (don’t bring up Rodman…

    I don’t want to be purely adversarial here, and I understand JR wasn’t going to be part of a winning culture here. But at the same time, no one was complaining about bad character players when Starks, Mason, Kurt Thomas, Jason Kidd, Latrell Sprewell, and Larry Johnson wore the uni.

  58. Do you think we could get two firsts right now for Melo? It would be hilariously Knicksy if the Melo deal last minute throw in was more valuable than the actual Melo.

  59. Two first rounders for Moz? Are they fucking kidding?

    This means Phil could definitely swoop in at the last minute and send Cole back to the Cavs for those picks, right?

  60. Character concerns aside, JR was playing fucking terrible no good awful basketball this season.

  61. Well that Memphis First rounder is protected. 1-5 AND 15-30 for 3 years. What does that even mean?

    And yes DRED if Melo could be gotten for two mid to late 1st round picks and no additional money concerns a contender would pick him up.

  62. This means Phil could definitely swoop in at the last minute and send Cole back to the Cavs for those picks, right?

    No. Cole is an emergency center who fluked into some rebounds because everyone is hurt. Shhhhhh.

  63. And yes DRED if Melo could be gotten for two mid to late 1st round picks and no additional money concerns a contender would pick him up

    Well, yes. . .but there are those pesky money concerns.

  64. Two firsts for old flame Timofey. Tyson trade looks a little worse every day.

    Arrrgh. It also makes the Melo deal look worse. And it’s a good example of how unheralded young guys can get better and come to have signficant value. I am hoping that part of Phil’s strategy is to get unheralded youngs play and get better. This is different from trading and hiring young players who already known to be getting better or much better than previous years. In the current Knicks, Acy, Early and Larkin might do this, as well as possibly Jason Smith, Galloway and, of course Cole Aldrich.

  65. The protections on the OKC pick: Nos. 1-18 in 2015; 1-15 in ’16; 1-15 in 2017. After 2017, it becomes two seconds.

    Can someone please explain how protections work? Does Denver get to select what year they want the picks or is it the first year that it doesnt meet the protection requirements?

  66. @8 I think Z-Man is Shump’s biggest fan.

    Guilty as charged.

    You have to be impressed with Cleveland’s wheeling and dealing. In two days, they totally transformed their roster.

  67. I think it’s usually the first year the pick doesn’t meet protection requirements it gets used by the receiving team. I guess you could write a different sort of trade agreement, but it’s already complicated enough. For example, OKC is probably unable to trade the 2016 and 2017 picks without coming to a new agreement with Denver until Denver actually uses the pick.

  68. Thanks guys. So it looks like that Memphis pick will turn on to an unprotected 2019 most likely.

    Memphis First rounder is protected. 1-5 AND 15-30 for 3 years

  69. I think these trades really change the Cavs. Mozgov, Shimp, Thompson sort of, Marion sort of help balance a terribly lopsided team. Also, last offensive possession lineup of lebron, Kyrie, jr (seriously), love and mike miller seems like unstoppable infinite space machine.

  70. It’s definitely pretty all-in for Cleveland, but yeah that roster just looks so much better and more balanced than it did two days ago (although any roster looks a lot better when you take Waiters off it). Given their current status and need to keep Love, and to a lesser extent Lebron, content, it’s probably a smart move. Starting 5 of Kyrie, Shump, Lebron, Love, Mozgov works a couple strong defenders in there to go with their offensive firepower, and if Blatt gets the rotations figure out they should have some interesting lineups. Great haul for the Nuggets though even with the heavy protections on the picks. They still have a few more tasty pieces to sell as well.

    Memo to Knicks GM’s past (and perhaps present): It’s almost as if when you have a team over a barrel you can sometimes negotiate favorable trade terms.

  71. Spears just tweeted that T-Wolves waived Jeff Adrien.

    He’s a WP48 SUPERSTAR. Gotta pick him up, right?

  72. Would Pacers (who were quietly shopping Hibbert earlier) have taken 2 1sts and Thompson for Roy? If Cavs, do you prefer this or Mozzie deal?

  73. Mozgov = 2 x Protected 1st round picks
    JR+Shump = 2nd rounder in 2019

    What’s wrong with this math?

  74. I think it’s a little disingenuous to say dumping JR’s contract only saves them 2m- yes they could have stretched him but then he’d still be costing them money 2 years from now. Any way you slice it the Knicks are saving 6.5m in cap room. Maybe Phil squanders all the cap space this summer and the real savings is only that 2m but that’s not a sure thing. So Shump netted a 2nd round pick and a nice chunk of cap space- probably another two second rounders worth if you’re looking at what it would cost to get a team under the cap to take on that kind of salary. Plus JR’s rep/bad foot might’ve add to the cost so I’d say it’s at least that. That’s as probably as good as whatever late round/protected pick he could have been traded for last year. I do think Shump has real value for an Eastern Conference playoff team- especially the Cavs because he’s done a good job on both Rose and Lowry in the past- two guys they’re going to have to stop in order to make a real run. If you can let Shump play the point on defense (or match him on an iso heavy wing) he can still pay real dividends. But that’s really the limit of his value- even if he can become consistent on offense you’d have to pay for it in the off-season so that really limits what he’s worth. I’d still have rather kept him and waived any or all of Bargs/Jason Smith/Wear if you really felt the need (and yeah there’s need) to open up some roster spots for D-league guys (I’d still love to see them waive all those guys and maybe Amar’e too) but I’m okay with the trade- C+ in my book.

  75. Mozgov = 2 x Protected 1st round picks
    JR+Shump = 2nd rounder in 2019

    What’s wrong with this math?

    Averagish production from a cheap center is more valuable than a malcontent chucker and a shooting guard who can’t shoot?

  76. So a trade for Moz requires two first round picks and we couldn’t get even one for Shump?

  77. Averagish production from a cheap center is more valuable than a malcontent chucker and a shooting guard who can’t shoot?

    Seriously tho lol Cleveland was in dire straits for a big i guess

  78. So a trade for Moz requires two first round picks and we couldn’t get even one for Shump?

    I seriously think JR prevented that.

    Like, they were trying to get rid of Waiters and gained JR

  79. Spears just tweeted that T-Wolves waived Jeff Adrien. He’s a WP48 SUPERSTAR. Gotta pick him up, right?

    I mean, have you seen our roster?

    Yes but this could be some devious ploy by T_Wolves to out-tank us. I’d waive Amare, Bargs, Acy, Smith and start bringing in a bunch of D-League, Euro League, China League, Transylvania League, etc. players to tryout.

  80. Do you think we could get two firsts right now for Melo? It would be hilariously Knicksy if the Melo deal last minute throw in was more valuable than the actual Melo.

    What’s just as bad is that it’d take at least one of those picks for the Nuggets to move Gallo at this point. Which is kind of Nuggety- who’ve taken the clean slate trading Melo could have given them and wound up paying Gallo, Chandler, Lawson, Faried and McGee more than they’re worth. The Melo deal was a lose/lose trade though since the Knicks are still stuck with Melo at super max they lost worse.

  81. @98 thats precisely why the Knicks are keeping Melo. He may be overpaid. But you basically know what you have in him. With just cap room and no foundation player you could end up exactly where the Nuggets are.

  82. Caleb! Been a while.

    I know there are all sorts of restrictions on the picks but I do think it’s kind of hilarious that Mozgov just netted anything at all after being the throw in in the Carmelo deal….

    Pretty Knicksy stuff all around….

  83. Post trade, Cleveland should be a lot more interesting to watch. The Knicks who knows?

    It should be interesting to see what happens in the next few days.

    Good riddance to JR. Shump I sort of miss. I liked his intensity on the court but not a smart player.
    I think and hope the Knicks can do a lot better.

    It is already more exciting to be a Knicks fan!

  84. Well, I’ll give Dolan this much – at least he isn’t like the Rams owners. Not even returning the calls from the city of St. Louis? Dirtbags.

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