NY Post: Knicks’ win over Wizards comes with Mitchell Robinson injury price

From Peter Botte:

Julius Randle had stressed that the Knicks “definitely [had] to take advantage” of the fact NBA scoring leader Bradley Beal wasn’t playing for the Wizards on Friday night.

And Randle, a potential All-Star forward, got back on track after one of his worst offensive games of the season, finishing with 24 points and 18 rebounds to lead the Knicks to a 109-91 victory in Washington.

The win came with a price, however. Knicks starting center Mitchell Robinson fractured his right hand late in the second quarter after recording a double-double (10 points and 14 rebounds) in less than 20 minutes of playing time. He will be reevaluated Saturday in New York.

Derrick Rose contributed 14 points and six assists with four steals in 20 minutes off the bench in his second game back with the Knicks (12-15) after Sunday’s acquisition from the Pistons. Rookie Immanuel Quickley scored 16 points and Elfrid Payton finished with 12.

Hopefully this isn’t one of those bad fractured hands! It’s not like Mitch is shooting the ball, he just needs to dunk it and block shots.

I would imagine that this would mean that we’ll see more Obi Toppin, which is a silver lining in the grey cloud of Mitch’s absence!

Otherwise, it is good to beat the bad teams by a lot, but boy, there was a lot of ugly basketball in this one, so coupled with Mitch’s injury, it is hard for me to be too excited about this one (Toppin did look spry tonight, though, which was nice. Derrick Rose says that he is particularly looking for Toppin. That’s good to hear, but…uhm…why weren’t the other guards already doing that?).

The Knicks host the Rockets tomorrow night, with Victor Oladipo missing the game. Here’s hope he makes no starts at MSG this season.

Liked it? Take a second to support Brian Cronin on Patreon!

78 thoughts to “NY Post: Knicks’ win over Wizards comes with Mitchell Robinson injury price”

  1. Well, clearly we’re fucking cursed.

    Isn’t KOQ a free agent? If Mitch ends up missing the rest of the season I wouldn’t mind seeing him back. I always liked his game.

  2. Losing to this ragtag version of the Wizards would have been embarrassing so … a win is a win is a win…

    Losing Mitch sucks, hope it’ll be the shorter possible absence.

    In the meantime I’d like to watch more Obi, but I fear Thibs’ thinks differently, yesterday Gibson played more minutes than Obi in the second half (after Mitch’s injury) and he never tried Randle at the five, despite WAS’ poor frontcourt…

  3. Isn’t KOQ a free agent? If Mitch ends up missing the rest of the season I wouldn’t mind seeing him back. I always liked his game.

    I’d sign off on that, but I don’t think they are going to make any moves. Nerlens will start, Taj will be the backup, and Randle will play some small ball C here or there. Thibs would probably bring back Noah before KOQ. lol

  4. Bondy summed it up the best “It was Mitchell Robinson’s best first half of the season, but ended as his worst” :(
    Still no news on the timetable for his return?

  5. I don’t think the Knicks are going to lose a real lot starting Nerlens instead of Mitch, but it’s a loss for Mitch’s development which has been kind of stagnant for awhile other than learning to make the tradeoff between smarter overall defense and fewer fouls vs trying to block every shot. Even if he comes back this season, it will take a little while to get rolling. There won’t be much time to debut any new offense he may have been working on. I’m still holding out hope he can become more than just a dunker on offense.

  6. ptmilo: jan veseley

    I’m not sure how he fell so far. Maybe after that good season with NY when he didn’t get signed back he lost some passion. He clearly has some holes in his game, especially in this era, but there are still backups around the league with similar shortcomings. Unlike many others, he has some good passing skills to go along with his energy style. I guess we’ll have to bring back Noah if we want those passing skills. At least we know he won’t beat up Thibs, :-)

  7. Please guys, KOQ doesn’t defend sh*t, that’s why. And Obi is the same, so he’ll get no burn at C. If Mitch is out for the season, we need to go get another rim-protector on the cheap. I’d much rather have 37yo Tyson Chandler than KOQ, and that’s saying much.
    If there’s no trade for a rim-protecting big to be had, no need to overthink this, just trade one or two from the excess of guards we have (Payton, Rivers, Frank), or cut Iggy, and call up Justin Patton. We may also cut one of the 2-way guys and sign Patton to a 2-way contract (he’ll be elegible to play 50 games and we have only 45 games left).

  8. Seems that unless it turns out to be a season-ending thing, the rigid Thibs will simply slot Noel in as a starter, move Taj into the backup spot, and bring up a scrub on a minimum deal to fill the roster spot. Thing is, Noel is prone to minor injuries and it would be foolish to not have another reserve C in the pipeline that is capable of playing real NBA minutes, maybe Patton is the guy, but someone.

  9. Please guys, KOQ doesn’t defend sh*t, that’s why.

    He wasn’t a great defender in NY, but that’s an overstatement. Like I said, maybe after his NY stint he lost interest. He didn’t play much and I didn’t watch much of him. But as a backup C in NY he was fine and brought other things to the table. Maybe you can find a better defender somewhere else, but if you can it’s because he doesn’t do anything else or he wouldn’t be available. In any event it doesn’t matter. He’s not coming and it doesn’t look like Thibs wants anyone.

  10. There is also the issue of foul trouble. In the next 5 games, we play teams that all have imposing guys at the 5 (Boogie, Capela, Vuc, LMA, KAT) so if they don’t do anything initially that might change.

    Edit: LMA is out

  11. Seems that unless it turns out to be a season-ending thing, the rigid Thibs will simply slot Noel in as a starter, move Taj into the backup spot, and bring up a scrub on a minimum deal to fill the roster spot. Thing is, Noel is prone to minor injuries and it would be foolish to not have another reserve C in the pipeline that is capable of playing real NBA minutes, maybe Patton is the guy, but someone.

    Totally agreed. Thibs isn’t exactly a mystery with this stuff. He has a pretty set hierarchy. Noel goes in for Mitch, Taj goes in for Noel and perhaps Randle plays some five in games when Noel gets into foul trouble (Mitch actually had to re-enter last night’s game early when Noel picked up his third foul early in the second. But Mitch’s injury occurred late in the second, so presumably he would have been on the court no matter what).

    Honestly, getting Chandler back as a “break in case of dire emergency” probably isn’t the worst idea.

  12. Really, though, this is where having Noel really helps, as he can at least basically approximate Mitch’s skills. Taj can’t replicate Noel’s skills, but it’s better than not having any sort of replacement for Mitch (like when the Knicks lost Chandler in 2013-14 and had only Bargs and “on his last legs” Kenyon Martin to replace him with).

  13. I never really thought of Taj as a C over the years. He’s gritty and savvy, but probably overmatched down low against even journeyman-types. Maybe he throws Knox and Obi out there a bit more, or puts Taj in more with the bigger starting guys like Elf, RJ and Bullock. But a Taj-Obi-Burks-IQ-DRose lineup seems very small…although maybe they push the ball in transition…although its hard to get out in transition if you can’t stop other teams from scoring…I dunno…

  14. As a rim protector of last resort, it would be nice to have Kenny Wooten, but I believe he’s on a 2-way contract with the Rockets.

  15. I’m trying to imagine a scenario where we brought in some unknown vet from overseas as a backup PG and his first 2 games had the same statistical profile as Rose’s. What would the commentary on KB look like?

  16. Bo Nateman:
    As a rim protector of last resort, it would be nice to have Kenny Wooten, but I believe he’s on a 2-way contract with the Rockets.

    The problem with green players like Wooten is that you can’t really count on them to at least “do no harm” while they are out there. I’d be fine with it, maybe even prefer it, but it probably wouldn’t be in the best interest of wins, which is what Thibs is all about these days.

  17. “I’m trying to imagine a scenario where we brought in some unknown vet from overseas as a backup PG and his first 2 games had the same statistical profile as Rose’s. What would the commentary on KB look like?”

    Well one difference is we know this point guard has a career .300 from three, so we can be pretty confident that he won’t shoot .500 from deep for long.

    Having said that, I’ve been relatively charmed by his play so far. He’ll never be a ‘pass-first’ point guard, but he feels like a ‘pass-50%-of-the-time’ pg right now, which given the offensive talent on this team is probably about the right choice.

    He felt like a ‘pass-10-20%-of-the-time’ his first time in NY. Which made me crazy. So if he keeps up the smart pg play, even as his shooting regresses to the mean, I’ll be willing to eat corvid.

  18. They’re obviously not going to tank, because look at the Eastern Conference standings right now…

    1 Philadelphia 76ers 18-8
    2 Milwaukee Bucks 16-10
    3 Brooklyn Nets 15-12
    4 Boston Celtics 13-12
    5 Indiana Pacers 13-13
    6 Charlotte Hornets 13-14
    7 Toronto Raptors 12-14
    8 New York Knicks 12-15
    9 Miami Heat 11-14
    10 Atlanta Hawks 11-14
    11 Chicago Bulls 10-15
    12 Orlando Magic 10-17
    13 Cleveland Cavaliers 10-17
    14 Detroit Pistons 7-19
    15 Washington Wizards 6-17

    It is highly unlikely that the Knicks remain ahead of the Heat and Hawks, but then that just makes them the #10 seed, which gets them to the play-in games, and their competition for the play-in game is horrifically weak. The Bulls, Cavs and injury-ravaged Magic? I’d say that the Knicks should be heavy favorites right now for the #10 seed.

  19. Brian Cronin:
    They’re obviously not going to tank, because look at the Eastern Conference standings right now…

    1 Philadelphia 76ers 18-8
    2 Milwaukee Bucks 16-10
    3 Brooklyn Nets 15-12
    4 Boston Celtics 13-12
    5 Indiana Pacers 13-13
    6 Charlotte Hornets 13-14
    7 Toronto Raptors 12-14
    8 New York Knicks 12-15
    9 Miami Heat 11-14
    10 Atlanta Hawks 11-14
    11 Chicago Bulls 10-15
    12 Orlando Magic 10-17
    13 Cleveland Cavaliers 10-17
    14 Detroit Pistons 7-19
    15 Washington Wizards 6-17

    It is highly unlikely that the Knicks remain ahead of the Heat and Hawks, but then that just makes them the #10 seed, which gets them to the play-in games, and their competition for the play-in game is horrifically weak. The Bulls, Cavs and injury-ravaged Magic? I’d say that the Knicks should be heavy favorites right now for the #10 seed.

    Yeah, #10 or maybe #11 or 12 at worst, and possibly move up to #9 if other teams falter. Definitely not in the top 8.

  20. One last note on Rose — IQ’s minutes have not been hit by his acquisition. Quick has played 21 minutes in each of the Rose games, which is a bit up on his season average (19), and a good bit higher than the three previous games.

  21. The thing about Rose is that his role on this team is clearly different than it was the last time around when he was brought in as a reclamation project starter in Phil’s crazy triangle scheme. He still had the illusion of having some prime ahead of him at age 28. At age 32, I’m expecting a different guy in a different role, 20-25mpg savvy vet who gets the young players the ball in the right spots and takes over from time to time. I can see his AST% being around 40%, which is where it was last year in 1300 minutes. If that continues to hold true, it will be good for the development of the younger players and probably a reasonable use of a mid-2nd rounder in the context of Thibs’ win-now obsession.

  22. IQ may be the guy Rose helps the most. Now with diminished athleticism, Rose’s game is a better model for IQ to learn from…getting to the rim without jumping out of the guy and playing the PG position as a combo guard.

  23. One more tea-leaf-reading note: Elf’s minutes went from about 33/game the three games previous to Rose, to about 25/game since. Which, if it keeps up, is not necessarily a bad thing.

  24. I missed last night’s game. Sad to see Mitch get hurt. So far so good with Rose, I guess…keep Rivers off the court.

    Man, Mets losing Lugo for at least a month or so. Not good news for the pen.

  25. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Here comes the stealth tank. Jalen Suggs wyd?

    Even if that was true, which we know it isn’t, that wouldn’t be easy. DET, WAS and MIN are a lock for the last 3, and probably we’d never outtank OKC and CLE. So tanking to be 6th, when going for the play-in probably puts us at 8th, i don’t think that’s worth the (tank) troubles. And i’m a tank believer, like you, but we didn’t prepare the team for it and now it’s too late. On the other hand, i’m having a hard time not picturing the teams that’ll get Cade, Suggs, Mobley and Kuminga coming back to aunt us down the road.

  26. ptmilo:
    they say 4-6 weeks but with surgery that’s probably optimistic

    I dunno, that sounds pretty typical for a “hand” injury, which I’m assuming is a metacarpal fracture (all “long” bones, no movement per se) as opposed to a “wrist” injury, which is a carpal fracture and more about movement. Surgery might be insertion of a pin or screw to stabilize the bone, but that’s a simple procedure not involving soft tissue. My guess is that it depends on the nature of the fracture, but the timetable is pretty standard for a non-complicated fracture.

  27. Brian Cronin
    February 13, 2021 at 12:11 pm
    They’re obviously not going to tank, because look at the Eastern Conference standings right now…
    “8 New York Knicks 12-15”

    I always used to get in trouble when I’d post stuff like this here, but I feel that, like in 1999, a shortened season with lots of irregularities is a bad year to feign competitiveness. If Houston’s shot against the Heat had bounced out instead on in that year, we’d have been looking at beginning the re-build when it was proper, instead of trying to fake it until we made it again for the next few years. And if we’d ended up as the #9 seed instead of eeking into the #8 seed, and ended up with the #3 pick (as #9 seed Charlotte did), we’d have had the choice between Baron Davis, Odom, Rip Hamilton, Andre Miller, Shawn Marion, and Szczerbiak (probably would have taken Szczerbiak, of course, haha). I know, I know. 1999 was the pinnacle for Knicks fandom of the past 25 years, but that Houston shot probably did more harm than good in the long run. And it was a season that was so different than the ones that surrounded it, with the blitzed schedule and the back-to-back-to-back games that they instituted. If that had been a normal year, and Houston’s shot wasn’t even in the position to bounce in or out, Phil Jackson probably would have ended up the coach that summer, and, well, he may have a few less rings, but he’d also maybe have more. So, beware the #8 seed in an irregular season. As JVG used to say about wins when you don’t play well, it’s “fools gold”. The best thing for the Knicks is to do right now is to fade and fade fast.

  28. Two silver linings of the injury:

    1. It may increase Obi’s time. It probably won’t, but he wasn’t going to play more with the team at full health.

    2. Our defense will suffer, which means fewer wins for Team Tank.

  29. We have a bunch of games against shitty teams in the near term I was looking forward to pretending we were a good team for a little while

  30. ptmilo:
    they say 4-6 weeks but with surgery that’s probably optimistic

    Oh, that’s a relief. That means he’ll miss around half of the 45 remaining games. And he ends the season playing again, which is a huge difference because we need to decide what to do with his contract situation.
    This way i don’t think we need to go after another big, Noel + Taj (and if needed a little Julius at C) is ok.

  31. Just to clarify, I agree with ptmilo to the degree that 4 weeks is on the optimistic side. Closer to six weeks is more likely. But young hands heal quickly. My daughter cleanly broke her 1st metacarpal (connecting thumb with wrist) and required a pin to be inserted. She was back playing volleyball in less than 3 weeks.

  32. I’m trying to imagine a scenario where we brought in some unknown vet from overseas as a backup PG and his first 2 games had the same statistical profile as Rose’s. What would the commentary on KB look like?

    Who knows? I would probably have the same questions that I have now w/ Rose. Like what contract will the Knicks offer their 32y.o. PG this offseason. I’m more fearful of the Knicks overpaying ‘League MVP’ Derrick Rose than them paying too much for a Euro journeyman that couldn’t make it to the association till his 30’s. I’d be happier with the hypothetical FIBA guy for that reason.

  33. If Mitch is done for the season, I’d love to see the Knicks add Skal Labissiere to the roster, since he is already in Westchester. He seems to have all the tools, but has never put it together. I think he is a better option than Chandler or any other corpse than can find.

  34. GHenman:
    If Mitch is done for the season, I’d love to see the Knicks add Skal Labissiere to the roster, since he is already in Westchester. He seems to have all the tools, but has never put it together. I think he is a better option thanChandler or any other corpse than can find.

    Interesting…I’d be okay with that, if only to hear Clyde pronounce his name…

  35. To sign Skal, we’d have to cut somebody, either from the big club or one of our two-way contracts. (Jared Harper just hurt his ankle, and it’s unclear how long he’ll be out.) I wouldn’t feel bad about cutting loose Theo Pinson or, at this point, Frank (whose time here is clearly done), but everything Rose has done so far suggests we’ll likely roll with the guys we have until Mitch is back.

  36. IMO, I wouldn’t want to pay DRose that much to come back, obviously, but I don’t really have a problem with a rebuilding team having some older vets in the bench/role player roles. The key is your core all being young. But if the starting five (or most of it) and a few key bench pieces are younger, then having some dudes in their 30s in the other roles is totally fine. Dudes decline in their 30s for sure but if it’s bench minutes, they can usually produce at a high level and they’re experience and knowledge is a good thing for a young team.

  37. There’s one thing i like about Leon Rose, he has boundaries, which we have to agree it’s kind of a first on the Knicks, and so why would he’d be willing to overpay DRose? And i don’t see a market above 7.5M AAV, so that certainly will not be a problem.

  38. Z-man:
    I’m trying to imagine a scenario where we brought in some unknown vet from overseas as a backup PG and his first 2 games had the same statistical profile as Rose’s. What would the commentary on KB look like?

    Has the unknown hypothetically vet been accused of gang rape and when asked what he would be doing at a girl’s house late at night he answered “we’re men, you can assume”? And has he been with the Knicks for a season before and was terrible?

    If yes, I would hate it the same way.

    There’s no separating this signing from the context, unfortunately, when the context definitely matters for my decision to support the guy or not.

  39. Bruno Almeida: Has the unknown hypothetically vet been accused of gang rape and when asked what he would be doing at a girl’s house late at night he answered “we’re men, you can assume”? And has he been with the Knicks for a season before and was terrible?

    If yes, I would hate it the same way.

    There’s no separating this signing from the context, unfortunately, when the context definitely matters for my decision to support the guy or not.

    Well, as I’ve said before, we are talking in the context of devoting countless hours discussing and rooting for (in effect patronizing) a team owned by one of the most despicable assholes in all of sports. So feeling the way you do about a player who was not held liable in either a criminal or civil trial, and whose choice of words at trial might have reflected in part the fact that he grew up in perhaps the single most impoverished and violent neighborhood in the country, while overlooking, or at least tolerating, the equally heinous acts of a white guy born with the silverest of spoons in his mouth who was actually found culpable, seems like a curious choice to me.

  40. I wonder how many bigs need to get injured before Thibs tries Randle at the 5. I would be interested in at least seeing what it looks like.

  41. Dotson, Rose — how many other credibly-accused rapists can we apologize for, here on this esteemed site? We need more rapists in the blue and orange! We love rapists here! More rapists! We men! You can assume!

  42. Bruno Almeida: Has the unknown hypothetically vet been accused of gang rape and when asked what he would be doing at a girl’s house late at night he answered “we’re men, you can assume”?

    Yeah, because of this i’d much prefer another “savvy vet”. We just got rid of Dotson, and even if the court didn’t charge any of them, i’d prefer that the Knicks stayed on the immaculate reputation players track.

  43. Probably a bit TMI but 4th metacarpal fractures: treatment and complications. To make a long story short, this is where you put a ring on your right ring finger. If this was a car crash or something more major, I would be very concerned about a long-term problem but it’s probably a hairline type break which should heal quickly. 4-6 weeks should be translated into 7-8 weeks to account for “let’s not dishearten the fanbase”. That really means Early April at the earliest. If that works out, he’ll have a month worth of games to get playoff ready, if that’s a thing.

    Not good news. There are centers available. A good emergency defender is needed.

  44. There are centers available. A good emergency defender is needed.

    Noel and Taj are both perfectly cromulent defenders. We’d have to cut someone on the roster to add a stopgap defender, and while I don’t really care about cutting someone at the end of the bench, I’d also rather take a chance to see Randle and/or Obi get spot minutes at the 5, depending on matchups.

    Obi needs to play, just to help us make some decisions at this deadline and in this offseason. Small-ball 5 may be his ideal role, anyway, despite his own defensive issues.

  45. GHenman:
    If Mitch is done for the season, I’d love to see the Knicks add Skal Labissiere to the roster, since he is already in Westchester. He seems to have all the tools, but has never put it together. I think he is a better option than Chandler or any other corpse than can find.

    Aside from having a laugh listening to Clyde try and pronounce his name, Skal is indeed intriguing. He has NBA experience and was once thought of as a high lottery pick before he got hurt.

  46. Z-man: Well, as I’ve said before, we are talking in the context of devoting countless hours discussing and rooting for (in effect patronizing) a team owned by one of the most despicable assholes in all of sports. So feeling the way you do about a player who was not held liable in either a criminal or civil trial, and whose choice of words at trial might have reflected in part the fact that he grew up in perhaps the single most impoverished and violent neighborhood in the country, while overlooking, or at least tolerating, the equally heinous acts of a white guy born with the silverest of spoons in his mouth who was actually found culpable, seems like a curious choice to me.

    I think your perspective is really valuable, Z-Man, but I’m always torn in this subject. In my personal experience I’ve worked with vulnerable trans people a lot, and you can definitely see a lot of the violence the poorer ones suffer comes from people who come from the same upbringing of Rose, and it stems from disinformation and just following a culture that’s toxic much more than from malice.

    But at the same time, the Rose episode happened in 2016, when he was already 28, rich beyond belief, a former MVP with TONS of resources at hand. I can’t fault him for living according to the rules of a toxic masculinity that was always his reality, but I can and I will fault him for not looking to move past this. He had access to all sorts of information sources, PR training, everything, inside the community and outside or damn, just a Google click away.

    So I understand that the situation is complex, of course, but I still think we should hold a guy like him to a higher standard, as ignorance should only be an excuse when it’s paired with actual lack of access to information and educational resources. There was even the Kobe case before this and that was about consent too.

  47. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Dotson, Rose — how many other credibly-accused rapists can we apologize for, here on this esteemed site? We need more rapists in the blue and orange! We love rapists here! More rapists! We men! You can assume!

    Who’s apologizing for anything, beyond patronizing a team (and an organization known as the NBA) employing credibly accused rapists? When the profit emanating from our consumption of the product lines the pockets of despicable owners and rapist players, isn’t patronizing a form of apologizing? Or can you live with it so long as he’s not on “our” team? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

    If you want to conclude that Dolan, Thibs, and all of the folks who actually have control over whether Rose is on the team are rape apologists, that’s fair. Or his teammates for not objecting to sharing the court or a locker room with him. Or other teams for not refusing to take the court with him.

    For example, would owners, coaches, players, fans, sponsors feel the same way about a credibly accused racist?

    You have no control over that as a fan, besides not giving any attention to the team or the league that eventually feeds into the profit stream. If you’re not willing to to completely divorce yourself from the team, you are as much of an apologist as they are, and even more hypocritical.

    So I don’t moralize because I feel that it would make me a hypocrite. It’s a very slippery slope that I’m not willing to go down.

  48. To be even clearer, yes, it’s also a good point that we can’t really run away from violence, bigotry, etc when watching entertainment provided by billionaires like Dolan who are, by all accounts, just as much pieces of shit as the more visible players. However, I still reserve the right to also choose not to support particular players when the violence is made visible AND, and this is the most important part to me, not even an apology was made.

    Kobe was forever marred for me because of his case, but at least he acknowledged it and by all accounts was a guy who tried to become a better person. I can value that and understand the complexity of the situation. Not with Rose, so far, and I’m honest when I say I wish he acknowledged it and I hope he made changes to understand and move on.

  49. Alan: Noel and Taj are both perfectly cromulent defenders. We’d have to cut someone on the roster to add a stopgap defender, and while I don’t really care about cutting someone at the end of the bench, I’d also rather take a chance to see Randle and/or Obi get spot minutes at the 5, depending on matchups.

    Obi needs to play, just to help us make some decisions at this deadline and in this offseason. Small-ball 5 may be his ideal role, anyway, despite his own defensive issues.

    Yeah, I just confirmed that you’re right that the Knicks would have to make a roster move. I honestly consider Taj more of a PF but he’ll get some burn now. Thibs talked yesterday about using Randle at the 5 in a smallball lineup using Knox at the 4. Let’s see if Knox can step up. This is probably his last chance.

  50. “Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration.

    It isn’t just one person sexually assaulting nearly 20% of the women in this country. The Knicks’ roster combined with the coaching staff equals about 25 to 30 males. So we know about Rose – who are the other 3 or 4 men on the roster or who are coaching that we don’t know about, and whom may have committed some type of sexual assault in the past.

  51. ***Dotson, Rose — how many other credibly-accused rapists can we apologize for, here on this esteemed site?***

    Ahem, Anthony Mason, Zach Randolph, Stephon Marbury… (Eddy Curry, Isiah Thomas…) (Patrick Ewing, Larry Johnson, John Starks…)

  52. Phatt Gandalf is Big Chiefin’: It isn’t just one person sexually assaulting nearly 20% of the women in this country. The Knicks’ roster combined with the coaching staff equals about 25 to 30 males. So we know about Rose – who are the other 3 or 4 men on the roster or who are coaching that we don’t know about, and whom may have committed some type of sexual assault in the past.

    I agree with this point, and it feeds into my general feeling. But that’s besides the point. I would hate to go through life suspecting that all entertainers are unearthed Bill Cosby cases.

    Bruno, we differ on the Kobe vs. Rose thing. Kobe was raised in privilege and had huge advantages that don’t go away just because Rose got rich. I seriously doubt that he felt any more remorse than Rose did, but was more clever about public relations. Not to mention many other advantages that can’t be bought away. But I have great respect for you and anyone who feels strongly about these issues as they apply to individual players. I just don’t think that any poster here should judge anyone rooting for Rose to be the best he can be while in the orange and blue as being a rape apologist.

  53. Z-man: I agree with this point, and it feeds into my general feeling. But that’s besides the point. I would hate to go through life suspecting that all entertainers are unearthed Bill Cosby cases.

    Bruno, we differ on the Kobe vs. Rose thing. Kobe was raised in privilege and had huge advantages that don’t go away just because Rose got rich. I seriously doubt that he felt any more remorse than Rose did, but was more clever about public relations. Not to mention many other advantages that can’t be bought away. But I have great respect for you and anyone who feels strongly about these issues as they apply to individual players. I just don’t think that any poster here should judge anyone rooting for Rose to be the best he can be while in the orange and blue as being a rape apologist.

    You know we mostly always agree on this type of issue, and I’ll never hold it against anyone who wants him to succeed, just like I didn’t with Dotson. I will hold it against if people try try turn his comeback story like if it’s such an emotional tearjerker, inspirational gift from God, like people did when he scored 50 that time, but otherwise I just enter the discussion because I think it’s a valuable one.

    The reality is we don’t really know exactly how to deal with this stuff, it was never really a consideration consideration when choosing to support a team or not, so at the end of the day my approach is that everyone deals with however they think it’s best. That’s why my stance remains the same, I don’t like him, but I don’t wish bad upon him or anything. I’m still mostly against the trade I’d say 90% because I think he’s a bad basketball player, and 10% because I just don’t want to watch the guy and this Knicks team has been very enjoyable to watch for me. But I’ll keep watching in spite of this, just with this caveat.

  54. Fair. Now for the 90%, what do you think so far? That’s primarily what I was getting at…are folks so jaded by the 10% that they can’t step back and fairly assess whether he’s playing well or helping the team or a good fit for his role? Of course, it’s only 2 games, but there’s no question that he has looked very good thus far. Tonight is a great test, a guard-heavy team led by another former star with gimpy knees.

  55. Wow, this topic broke out again, huh? Same thought as before — the ultimate source of the high levels of sexual aggression of elite athletes is predominately the sense of entitlement they feel and ultimately the sense of entitlement they feel is all the attention and money they get from all of us, typically from an early age. This isn’t to say that we can’t make distinctions among players — we obviously can. But those distinctions don’t salvage our ultimate culpability. It would be nice if society’s elite athletes were worthy of all the adulation they get — but as a group they really aren’t.

    What this really means day-to-day is that, whether we want to admit it or not — and most of us don’t — we’re all separating the art from the artist. There’s no other explanation for our collective behavior. The hypocrisy and lack of awareness of it all does occasionally rankle, to be sure.

  56. I know people are optimistic right now, but Rose’s first 2 games are an illusion. He isn’t going to be good. Through 2 games he’s, unfortunately, taken zero of his FGA at the rim. Instead he’s shooting 100% on 2s over16ft, where he attempts 30% of his shots. To state the obvious, this is not the shot profile we want from Rose.

  57. Z-man:
    Fair. Now for the 90%, what do you think so far? That’s primarily what I was getting at…are folks so jaded by the 10% that they can’t step back and fairly assess whether he’s playing well or helping the team or a good fit for his role? Of course, it’s only 2 games, but there’s no question that he has looked very good thus far. Tonight is a great test, a guard-heavy team led by another former star with gimpy knees.

    He’s been pretty good, it’s clear that he knows how Thibs wants to play and he seems focused on staying in his lane instead of taking over like he did his first time around with us. I’m just not optimistic that his production will be the difference maker for anything more than a win or two, we would have had the same results pretty much without him last two games, a loss against a good team and a win against a terrible team. Stability at the guard position might be more important than I’m giving credit for it, but I’ll wait and see.

  58. I’ve stated many times that the Rose’s situation makes me unconfortable and that I try to detach from it during games.
    I don’t judge who’s on the other side on this, everyone is entitled to his opinion/feelings.

    I was against the trade for “basketball related” reasons (Thibs’ obsession with former players, Rose’s first round in NY, his style of play and lack of shooting and defense) and I’m still on that side.

    On the other hand Rose played well in the first two games, he’s a better PG than Payton (not a great achievement) and I am surprised by his attitude compared to his first time in NY.
    He speaks continuously with the youngsters, passes them the ball without hesitation, tries to help on defense and the offense is way more fluid with him (and Quickley) on the court.

    At the same time, as with Payton before him, I reserve the right to criticize him without the need to apologize to someone every time he hit a basket.

    I’m sure he’ll be re-signed.

  59. To clarify, I don’t think people here are apologists. I think posts like THCJ’s are good because they challenge us to question whether we’re unwittingly complicit in allowing those who commit violence against women to be given a free pass.

  60. Z-man: Such a shallow take.

    You’re right it was. Felt the need to clarify after I read the posts after his, including yours.

  61. Unreason:
    To clarify, I don’t think people here are apologists. I think posts like THCJ’s are good because they challenge us to question whether we’re unwittingly complicit in allowing those who commit violence against women to be given a free pass.

    I don’t think they are useful at all. They are snarky, condescending, accusatory and hyper-provocative, and far beneath his intellectual capacity to engage in this forum. We are clearly way past the point of being unwittingly complicit in anything of this nature.

  62. Z-man: I don’t think they are useful at all. They are snarky, condescending, accusatory and hyper-provocative, and far beneath his intellectual capacity to engage in this forum. We are clearly way past the point of being unwittingly complicit in anything of this nature.

    Maybe you are far past it. I’m not. I think humans are prone to rationalizing things. I’m not above making excuses for things I know are wrong because it’s bothersome to worry about or interferes with pleasure or whatever. I wish I were.

    Perhaps I was being too charitable, I don’t know, but I read his post as a prickly prompt to friends to reflect on how quickly we’re all willing to overlook the history of violence when someone becomes identified with our favorite team. I assumed the friendship and respect was a given that softened the accusatory tone, but I can see how it could be read differently.

  63. #I don’t think they are useful at all. They are snarky, condescending, accusatory and hyper-provocative, and far beneath his intellectual capacity to engage in this forum. We are clearly way past the point of being unwittingly complicit in anything of this nature.#

    +1

    I want to believe that No one here likes violence against women, men, kids, animals or plants.
    Makin this bball forum tho a Jerry Springer show ain’t helping anti-violence much imo…

  64. Sigh…

    @MikeVorkunov
    Tom Thibodeau doesn’t say the Knicks will play Julius Randle and Obi Toppin together in Mitchell Robinson’s absence, when asked if he’d do it. He does say: “It’s part of what we can do.” And he notes the speed of the bench unit.

  65. Alan:
    Sigh…

    In the “thinking out of the box” pictionary…there will never a a picture of Thibs next to that one…

  66. Derrick Rose’s decent play so far with the Knicks has been a mirage. We’re going to look back at this “hey maybe he’s actually pretty good” moment we’re in right now and laugh pretty soon.

  67. Derrick Rose’s decent play so far with the Knicks has been a mirage. We’re going to look back at this “hey maybe he’s actually pretty good” moment we’re in right now and laugh pretty soon.

    Do you mean like: exactly what happened with austin rivers just a few weeks ago?

    Seems we are all on a bit of an emotional rollercoaster with this team. Sometimes it can be unsteeling to care too much.

    #comfortablynumb…

  68. JK47:
    Derrick Rose’s decent play so far with the Knicks has been a mirage. We’re going to look back at this “hey maybe he’s actually pretty good” moment we’re in right now and laugh pretty soon.

    that is likely true…but even if he regresses and becomes blind in one eye…he still would have 10x the efficacy of elf freakin payton…

Comments are closed.