Knicks Release Schedule, We Predict Future Events

The New York Knicks have released their schedule for the 2016 season. Using our crystal ball, slide ruler, and a children’s joke book, we’ve predicted a few future events. We’re pretty confident all of these will occur.

10/27:
Porzingis shows up early, as Derek Fisher tells the rookie he’ll be starting on opening day. Porzingis spends hours pre-game working on various aspects of his game. He receives a call from his coach at 7:45pm, telling him that he’s been duped and opening day is really tomorrow. Fisher also tells him to show up in a tuxedo with a bag of salted cashews on a silver platter, and to stand behind the coach at all times as his personal nut server. Ahhh NBA hazing!

10/28:
Opening Day. New York hopes to follow in the Bucks footsteps, as Milwaukee improved by 26 wins last year. The Knicks only manage 20 points by halftime, the lowest NBA halftime point total since the Clippers in 1999. The Bucks rest their starters in the fourth quarter, and cruise to a 93-68 victory. Porzingis only manages 3 minutes of garbage time, since he lost 5 minutes changing out of the tuxedo. The rookie scores 2 points and blocks 3 shots. Carmelo Anthony plays 38 minutes.

10/29:
The Knicks lose a close one to the Hawks, 104-102. Calderon hit a game tying 2 point shot with 9 seconds left, but Paul Millsap recovers a Al Horford miss and banks it in high off the glass as time expires. Paul Millsap sets a career record with 22 rebounds. Carmelo Anthony scores 28 points in 39 minutes.

10/31:
Halloween day in Washington. Fisher makes Porzingis dress as Pippi Longstocking. Most people think he’s the Wendy’s girl or Junie B. Jones. Oh and the Knicks lose 98-91.

11/8:
The 0-6 Knicks face up against the Lakers, and blow out Los Angeles 108-87. D’Angelo Russell guard turns the ball over 6 times in the first quarter, and Kobe Bryant needs to be restrained from his teammate. Porzingis is forced to wear a basketball under his shirt, and waddle around like a pregnant lady. He plays 7 minutes in the fourth quarter and scores 8 points with 2 blocks. Carmelo Anthony scores 38 points in 42 minutes.

11/17:
New York earns their 5th win (5-7) against the Hornets 97-92. Robin Lopez misses the game when a prank on Hugo, the Hornets mascot, featuring a chainsaw and honey goes awry and Lopez accompanies the giant bee to the hospital. Kevin Seraphin is praised by his coach for a fine all around game as he earns 15 points with 3 rebounds and 1 block in the start. Carmelo Anthony scores 33 in 45 minutes.

11/21:
The Knicks (6-8) stun the Rockets 110-92. Derrick Williams scores a career high 28 points, and adds 1 rebound, 1 assist, and 1 steal. Derek Fisher praises him for his all round game. Carmelo Anthony scores 37 in 46 minutes.

11/27:
The day after Thanksgiving. New York ends up on the top end of another laugher, 111-87 against Miami. The most notable event of the day is Porzingis being unable to enter the game due to a stomach ailment. It is revealed that Derek Fisher ordered the slender rookie to eat an entire turkey the day before.

12/29:
The Knicks end the year with a win against the Pistons 101-91. New York is eyeing the 8th seed with their 16-17 record. Phil Jackson praises his coach for his quick feet, fluid hips, and square shoulders.

1/18:
The Knicks (17-26) snap their 9 game losing streak to start the season with a win against the 76ers. Kyle O’Quinn started at power forward and scored 12 points and had a career high 16 rebounds. Carmelo Anthony drops 33 in 38 minutes.

1/22:
The Clippers snap the Knicks 2 game winning streak, 108-102. Cole Aldrich scores 10 points, pulls down 16 rebounds, and blocks 4 shots in 26 minutes. Carmelo Anthony only manages 22 points in 41 minutes.

1/31:
Phil Jackson sits courtside as the Warriors come in to town. Each time Golden State launches a three, Jackson’s chuckle is audible on the tv telecast. Before the start of the fourth quarter, Jackson tweets that Golden State’s 3-point luck is about to run out. The Warriors go 6-6 from downtown in the final segment to close out New York 121-108.

2/22:
The Knicks (24-34) win at home against Toronto, but Porzingis misses the game. Later it is revealed that Fisher forced him to wear a Frankenstein Jr. costume, and the 7-3 center spent most of the game mobbed by tourists on the New York City streets who thought he was one of those walking cartoon characters. Most assumed he was Hogarth from The Iron Giant.

2/25:
Hogarth-gate hits the tabloids. That and the Knicks lack-luster record force the Knicks to fire Derek Fisher. Kurt Rambis takes over as head coach.

2/26:
In his first game as head coach, with the Knicks down by a dozen to the Magic in the first quarter, Rambis inserts Porzingis at power forward. The rookie blocks a Frye jumper, which leads to a transition bucket, and hits 3 straight shots to bring the momentum back to New York. In the 4th quarter, Porzingis enters the game with 6 minutes left much to the appreciation of the crowd. In the final moments, with Carmelo Anthony hounded by the defense, Kristaps receives the ball drives to the hoop for the game winning bucket.

2/27
New York Post back cover: Porzingisanity!

At this point, we’ll leave the rest up to you. Feel free to post your crystal ball entries in the comments!


Month WeekDay Day H/A Opponent Time
Oct. Wednesday 28 at Milwaukee 8:00 p.m.
Thursday 29 vs. Atlanta 8:00 p.m.
Saturday 31 at Washington 7:00 p.m.
Nov. Monday 2 vs. San Antonio 7:30 p.m.
Wednesday 4 at Cleveland 8:00 p.m.
Friday 6 vs. Milwaukee 7:30 p.m.
Sunday 8 vs. L.A. Lakers 3:30 p.m.
Tuesday 10 at Toronto 7:30 p.m.
Wednesday 11 at Charlotte 7:00 p.m.
Friday 13 vs. Cleveland 7:30 p.m.
Sunday 15 vs. New Orleans noon
Tuesday 17 vs. Charlotte 7:30 p.m.
Friday 20 at Oklahoma City 8:00 p.m.
Saturday 21 at Houston 8:00 p.m.
Monday 23 at Miami 7:30 p.m.
Wednesday 25 at Orlando 7:00 p.m.
Friday 27 vs. Miami 7:30 p.m.
Sunday 29 vs. Houston 7:30 p.m.
Dec. Wednesday 2 vs. Philadelphia 7:30 p.m.
Friday 4 vs. Brooklyn 7:00 p.m.
Saturday 5 at Milwaukee 8:30 p.m.
Monday 7 vs. Dallas 7:30 p.m.
Wednesday 9 at Utah 9:00 p.m.
Thursday 10 at Sacramento 10:30 p.m.
Saturday 12 at Portland 10:00 p.m.
Wednesday 16 vs. Minnesota 7:30 p.m.
Friday 18 at Philadelphia 7:00 p.m.
Saturday 19 vs. Chicago 7:30 p.m.
Monday 21 vs. Orlando 7:30 p.m.
Wednesday 23 at Cleveland 7:00 p.m.
Saturday 26 at Atlanta 7:30 p.m.
Sunday 27 at Boston 6:00 p.m.
Tuesday 29 vs. Detroit 7:30 p.m.
Jan. Friday 1 at Chicago 8:00 p.m.
Sunday 3 vs. Atlanta 3:30 p.m.
Tuesday 5 at Atlanta 8:00 p.m.
Wednesday 6 at Miami 7:00 p.m.
Friday 8 at San Antonio 8:30 p.m.
Sunday 10 vs. Milwaukee 7:30 p.m.
Tuesday 12 vs. Boston 7:30 p.m.
Wednesday 13 at Brooklyn 7:30 p.m.
Saturday 16 at Memphis 8:00 p.m.
Monday 18 vs. Philadelphia 1:00 p.m.
Wednesday 20 vs. Utah 7:30 p.m.
Friday 22 vs. L.A. Clippers 7:30 p.m.
Saturday 23 at Charlotte 7:00 p.m.
Tuesday 26 vs. Oklahoma City 7:30 p.m.
Thursday 28 at Toronto 8:00 p.m.
Friday 29 vs. Phoenix 7:30 p.m.
Sunday 31 vs. Golden State 7:30 p.m.
Feb. Tuesday 2 vs. Boston 7:30 p.m.
Thursday 4 at Detroit 7:30 p.m.
Friday 5 vs. Memphis 7:30 p.m.
Sunday 7 vs. Denver 1:00 p.m.
Tuesday 9 vs. Washington 8:00 p.m.
Friday 19 at Brooklyn 7:30 p.m.
Saturday 20 at Minnesota 8:00 p.m.
Monday 22 vs. Toronto 7:30 p.m.
Wednesday 24 at Indiana 7:00 p.m.
Friday 26 vs. Orlando 7:30 p.m.
Sunday 28 vs. Miami 7:30 p.m.
Mar. Tuesday 1 vs. Portland 7:30 p.m.
Friday 4 at Boston 7:30 p.m.
Saturday 5 vs. Detroit 7:00 p.m.
Tuesday 8 at Denver 9:00 p.m.
Wednesday 9 at Phoenix 9:00 p.m.
Friday 11 at L.A. Clippers 10:30 p.m.
Sunday 13 at L.A. Lakers 9:30 p.m.
Wednesday 16 at Golden State 10:30 p.m.
Saturday 19 at Washington 7:00 p.m.
Sunday 20 vs. Sacramento 7:30 p.m.
Wednesday 23 at Chicago 8:00 p.m.
Thursday 24 vs. Chicago 7:30 p.m.
Saturday 26 vs. Cleveland 7:30 p.m.
Monday 28 at New Orleans 8:00 p.m.
Wednesday 30 at Dallas 8:30 p.m.
Apr. Friday 1 vs. Brooklyn 7:30 p.m.
Sunday 3 vs. Indiana 7:30 p.m.
Wednesday 6 vs. Charlotte 7:30 p.m.
Friday 8 at Philadelphia 7:00 p.m.
Sunday 10 vs. Toronto 7:30 p.m.
Tuesday 12 at Indiana 7:00 p.m.
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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

88 thoughts to “Knicks Release Schedule, We Predict Future Events”

  1. In the 4th quarter, Porzingis enters the game with 6 minutes left much to the appreciation of the crowd. In the final moments, with Carmelo Anthony hounded by the defense, Kristaps receives the ball drives to the hoop for the game winning bucket.

    That night, Carmelo Anthony officially requests a trade, citing “not enough help”, and the “kids are taking too long to develop”.

  2. Re: Amnesty
    http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/239025/CBA-Encyclopedia-Amnesty-Provision

    “A popular and frequently used piece of both of the last two CBA’s, the amnesty provision has outlived its usefulness in the current agreement. It appears likely that it will be a part of the next Collective Bargaining Agreement (likely coming in 2017) in some form.”

    This possibility should factor into the discussion re: Melo’s contract, no? If he could be amnestied in 2017-18, that would essentially eliminate concerns about his no trade clause and player option…

  3. It seems clear that Phil was pleased with his 3 picks and I’m pretty hopeful too.

    He describes Hernanogomez as a “stronger version of Luis Scola.” Hmm.

  4. March 4th vs Boston

    Knicks lose and are no longer in the running for the 8th seed. Melo complains about knee, elbow, back, wrist and ebola problems but will continue to play out the rest of the season. Melo scores 16 points in 42 minutes.

  5. Dec. 26th vs. Atlanta – Tim Hardaway, Jr. drops 30 on the Knicks, continuing a torrid 10 game stretch in which he shoots 45% from 3 point range and averages 5 steals per game as part of his renewed commitment to defense.

  6. If you’ve watched film of Hernanogomez, he’s physically more ready than KP to play in the NBA. He’s shorter (6’11”) but is build solid and is a true center. When he matures he should be a constant double-double threat. He has a really good post-up game and is strong on the boards – and he’s only 21.

  7. Dec. 26th vs. Atlanta – Tim Hardaway, Jr. drops 30 on the Knicks, continuing a torrid 10 game stretch in which he shoots 45% from 3 point range and averages 5 steals per game as part of his renewed commitment to defense.

    I swear, if he ever becomes a good defender, I will be soooooooo pissed. Because that dude never even tried in his two years here.

  8. LOL..love this write up!! I laughed waaayyy too hard at the hazing. Frankenstein Jr?? PRICELESS

  9. If you’ve watched film of Hernanogomez, he’s physically more ready than KP to play in the NBA. He’s shorter (6’11”) but is build solid and is a true center. When he matures he should be a constant double-double threat. He has a really good post-up game and is strong on the boards – and he’s only 21.

    How’s he on defense?

  10. i never thought too much of guillermo when i was watching sevilla games… but i would have to say he is a lot like scola… just a scrappy groundbound pf type of player… he gets physical and is more fast twitch than porzingis but he obviously doesn’t have the length or the lift to be a difference..

    he’s a pf and a lot of other pf’s have that same problem so i dont think it’s a huge issue… it’s whether or not his offensive game translates as well which i’m not sure if it does…

  11. I’m getting my info on Hernangomez from here: DraftExpress.com and they are calling him below average defensively. It’s all based on last year and he’ll have another full year in a mens league. It’ll be interesting to watch him develop.

  12. I recommend watching Schmitz’s DX scouting video on Hernangomez. His stuff is usually spot-on:

    Strengths: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE2u5Zrcrek
    Weaknesses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWTxIUYTwGs

    Essentially, Hernangomez is a 6’11” specimen with excellent tools on both ends. On offense, he has great body positioning in the post, soft touch with both hands, and some range. On the video, he seems to be adept at getting position close to the basket. He uses his body very well in rebounding situations. He could be a really good energy rebounder and seems to love physical play. Physically, he reminds me of a taller Kris Humphries, but with a much more refined offensive game.

    His two big problems are 1) lack of lift/length…he can struggle on both ends vs. elite length and 2) several defensive issues: not a rim protector at all, slow to react on P&R, questionable lateral quickness, not a great defensive rebounder.

    I think it’s great that he is playing on Real Madrid next year, as that should prepare him well to adapt right away to the NBA. I would guess that a young Scola is not a bad comparison, except he’s actually bigger and more physical.

    Another benefit to having Robin Lopez is that he could wind up being an excellent mentor for guys like Porzingis, Hernangomez, Seraphin and O’Quinn. In researching Lopez, I was super-impressed with his understanding of positioning and his ability to make quick reads, especially on defense. Lopez is not an elite athlete by any means, but seems to beat guys to spots and uses his frame and leverage to outflank more athletic guys. To the degree that that stuff is teachable (Amare never learned it despite being an elite athlete) Hernangomez could be really good if he learns to do that stuff. If not, he’s probably a decent bench piece, like a Seraphin-level guy.

  13. In researching Lopez, I was super-impressed with his understanding of positioning and his ability to make quick reads, especially on defense.

    Remember that one of the best rebounders of all time, Dennis Rodman, was only 6’7″. You cannot teach height or speed but defense and rebounding are skills that can be taught if the student is willing to learn. Being smart has value in the NBA. Hernangomez was a 10pt-6reb player last year at age 21 so there’s promise.

    Players that are NBA failures are typically lazy, stupid or both. Take Bargnani for example….please! Oh, the Nets did. I can’t wait to watch KP school him.

    Z-Man, btw, DraftExpress.com = Schmitz’s videos.

  14. Ha ha great write up. Looks like KP is in for a rough year. I think the biggest thing to come out of the predictions is that Grant fly’s under the radar on the hazing front.

  15. I think KP will be ok if they play him in situations where he can succeed. If they ask him to play the low post right away he’ll break down by December. The Knicks are going to need another scorer. Someone to spread the defense, hit outside shots, and alter their opponents shots. This is where he can help the team and himself this year. Off the bench and not more than 20 minutes please.

  16. Remember that one of the best rebounders of all time, Dennis Rodman, was only 6’7?. You cannot teach height or speed but defense and rebounding are skills that can be taught if the student is willing to learn.

    1) Dennis Rodman is the best rebounder of all-time, without reservation. He was probably 6’6″.

    2) I’m not sure what the bit about “teaching” means. If anything, a player like Rodman suggests ability far beyond coaching. If you could teach what Rodman had, players like Dwight Howard would own the records, not the guy who stood 6’7″ in shoes, played community college ball and couldn’t make his high school team until he was an upperclassman.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHLu9T6An6w

    The above clip is an example of something a coach will never be able to teach. Athletes either have it or they don’t. It reminds me of when I practiced judo. I struggled with the timing of the throws, especially in competition, when a player’s own balance is judiciously measured and the window of opportunity to throw is only fractions of a second. Some (superior) players could feel it in their hands and were already reacting to their opponents’ movement.

    This is something you can explain but you cannot teach. I improved over time, but I was never going to be that guy who went from noob to black belt in 2 years. I watched that happen once. The guy “got it” from his very first practice. He’d learn the techniques, and he could correct his own movements very quickly. Then it was a matter of application, which he also had an innate talent for. He didn’t have to think on the mat. It just happened.

  17. “1) Dennis Rodman is the best rebounder of all-time, without reservation. He was probably 6’6?”

    Sure, anything you say.

    “Players that are NBA failures are typically lazy, stupid or both.”

  18. “Players that are NBA failures are typically lazy, stupid or both.”

    I disagree. Unless by “failures” you mean the Andrea Bargnani and Eddy Curry breed of NBA players.

  19. “Z-Man, btw, DraftExpress.com = Schmitz’s videos.”

    Not sure what you meant by this…

  20. I was reading somewhere about PG Kendall Marshall and am wondering why the Knicks don’t take a shot on him. Tall, great assist man, great 3 pt shooter, even a good rebounder. And young! Some of his NBA assist numbers and 3 pt shooting are just off the charts! I know he has an acl issue but he’s a 23 yr old point guard with special skills. Kind of a Deangelo Russell who’s already figured it out. Why not sign him?

    http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1966933-is-the-lakers-kendall-marshall-the-leagues-most-improved-player

  21. Oh yea..no doubt. Rodman is hands down the greatest rebounder ever, especially when you consider his size against his competition. In my book, he’s an all time great- factoring in his work on defense. He was horrible on offense, but he was so good at defense and rebounding that it didn’t matter. And he knew the game of basketball, in and out. Rodman was amazing.

  22. @20 The Schmidtz videos are featured on the DraftExpress.com link I provided in post 12 along with a write-up.

    Pound-for-pound, yes. Rodman is the best rebounder I’ve ever seen.

    @17

    I’m not sure what the bit about “teaching” means. If anything, a player like Rodman suggests ability far beyond coaching.

    There’s a certain amount that is teachable and then a special spark that very few have. All we as fans can ask our players to do is work hard to be the best they can be … just try your best. Is it fair to say that players like Bargnani, Hardaway and Smith tried their hardest?

    That’s one reason I’m a Stoudemire fan. There’s a guy who I felt gave blood and sweat to get better. He made me a fan. The others didn’t.

  23. Better than Wilt?

    Probably better in context, I think. Rodman was in the ballpark of Wilt, rebounding-wise, while playing in a much more competitive rebounding environment.

  24. Moses Malone was a pretty good rebounder as I recall and needs to be in that discussion. Not taking anything away from Rodman, but when you say ” greatest ever and it’s not even close” , that includes a lot of really great rebounders

  25. But the thing about Malone is that he basically was in the same rebounding environment as Rodman, so you can compare the two evenly (if there’s any difference in environment, it would be in Malone’s favor) and evenly Rodman destroys him. And that’s while absolutely agreeing with you that Malone was an excellent rebounder. Rodman’s just at another level. Wilt and Russell are the only ones I’d consider in Rodman’s league and I think Rodman is a better rebounder than Wilt and Russell (while Wilt and Russell, of course, were the much better overall players).

  26. Unless we’re awarding points for longevity there’s no way to argue that Moses Malone, a fantastic rebounder, was better at rebounding than Rodman

  27. Better than Wilt?

    I would say yes, given his size..or lack thereof. If he had Wilt’s size and athleticism, Rodman might have averaged 20 rpg for his career. Still, he wasn’t far off that number. Even had a few seasons where he flirted with that number. For a guy listed at 6’7″ 220, that is incredible. Guys like Wilt and Moses Malone were awesome rebounders as well, so I don’t mean to take anything away from them. But if I were building a team and I needed a rebounding, defensive presence- I’m picking Rodman. He had his role down to a science. If I couldn’t get Rodman to fill that role, then I’m picking Mutombo.

  28. Here’s a crazy stat to just show you how skewed things were with the old rebounding environment. Nate Thurmond was a fine rebounder. But Nate Thurmond averaged 18.12 rebounds per game in 1964-65. That’s .11 rebounds less per game more than Rodman averaged in his greatest rebounding season. Okay, so what’s so interesting about that? Thurmond’s 18.12 rebounds per game didn’t lead his own team in rebounding! That honor went to Wilt, who averaged 22.92 per game.

    You can see it pretty clearly, as the 1960s ended and the league started to change, the big rebounding numbers practically disappeared all at once. Remember, until the late 1960s, teams had fucking quotas on black players. It was disgusting, but it also served to skew rebounding numbers.

  29. Moses Malone career averages 12.3 total Rebs / 5.1 Offensive

    Dennis Rodman 13.1 total Rebs / 4.8 offensive

    I could be wrong, but those sound pretty close.

  30. The easiest way to compare rebounders is rebounding percentage. What percentage of available rebounds did the rebounder get? It allows us to get rid of noise like pace (if more rebounds are available, worse rebounders will get more rebounds than better rebounders who had fewer opportunities).

    Here is the top ten in single season rebounding percentage (this stat was not tracked until the early 1970s, which is why Russell and Chamberlain are not listed):

    1. Dennis Rodman* 29.73 1994-95 SAS
    2. Reggie Evans 26.67 2012-13 BRK
    3. Dennis Rodman* 26.56 1995-96 CHI
    4. Dennis Rodman* 26.19 1991-92 DET
    5. Dennis Rodman* 25.99 1992-93 DET
    6. Dennis Rodman* 25.74 1993-94 SAS
    7. Dennis Rodman* 25.61 1996-97 CHI
    8. DeAndre Jordan 24.47 2014-15 LAC
    9. Dennis Rodman* 24.08 1997-98 CHI
    10. Marcus Camby 24.06 2010-11 POR

    Malone shows up at #17, 19, 30, 48, 71 and 88, so he is well represented in the top 100, as well. Rodman just dominates it, though (Rodman is also at #55).

  31. To further that point, Malone’s highest single season rebounding total was 17.6 for the 1978-79 Rockets.

    Rodman’s was 18.7 for the 1991-92 Pistons.

    The Rockets’ pace that year? 103.8

    The Pistons’ pace that year? 91.6 (91.6!!!!)

    In other words, Malone had a lot more opportunities for rebounds than Rodman.

  32. Camby, for a few moments in 1999, looked like a Rodman that could block shots and finish at the rim. He’s a guy with raw talent that was able to learn how to use it at the NBA level.

  33. I think it’s impossible to compare Rodman to more complete players. Rodman had so much less overall responsibility than Chamberlain, Russell or Malone.

    Chamberlain led the league in rebounding every year except two (second to Russell) including his last year in the league when there were plenty of great C’s (Kareem ring a bell?)

    Chamberlain never averaged less than 42 minutes a game…despite routinely being double and triple teamed and playing at a much faster pace than today. He was bigger, stronger, faster, longer, quicker, more agile and smarter than Rodman.

  34. @38 exactly. Wilt was imo the greatest athlete of all time. If you think KP is smooth at 7’1 please look at wilt footage. The guy was literally a track star. If he didn’t have to carry the load on offense his rebounding numbers would have been crazy. Look at the LAL year where he had bad hands and was not relied upon as much to score…..he just dominated on the glass and defensively. It’s him and it’s not close

  35. This Rodman argument is akin to the Iverson argument. A lot of people say that Iverson shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence as an all time great. But I feel like if AI was 6’6″ with that ability, he would have put up even greater numbers, and would have been a much better defender. You have to factor in everything in these arguments. What Rodman did at his size was phenomenal. Wilt was bigger, stronger, and more athletic than most of the league during his time. He was SUPPOSED to put up great numbers. Rodman wasn’t as physically dominant as Wilt, or even Moses. Barkley was a great undersized rebounder as well. But even he was way more athletic than a lot of players at his position during his time, plus he had Freddy Kruger arms. I’m not in anyway insinuating that Wilt or Malone weren’t great rebounders. They just weren’t at Rodman’s level. And that’s not a knock on them, it’s more or less a testament to just how good Rodman was at it.

  36. Is anyone suggesting Rodman was better than Wilt? Don’t read that above….

    Wilt was amazing.

  37. Someone once asked Bill Russell if Rodman was the greatest under 6’10” rebounder ever. Russell smiled and said, “Last I checked, I was still 6’9″…”

  38. So Mel Ott was a better HR hitter than Babe Ruth because he was 5’9″ and 170 while Ruth was 6’2″ and listed at 215. Is that the version of logic we have here?

  39. I can’t believe that an innocent statement I made (post#14: “Remember that one of the best rebounders of all time, Dennis Rodman, was only 6’7?. “) sparked so much debate ;)

    Comparing eras is fun but futile. I’ll stick with Rodman as the best rebounder but he’s far from being the best player. When people say Jordan or LeBron is the “best ever” I don’t argue but I wonder if those people ever saw Wilt. And then I think about Wilt playing today’s game and I wonder how skewed his stats were because he was going against a 6’8″. The guy AVERAGED 50 pts, 26 reb per game in 1961-62 but who was he facing? Red Kerr? Darrall Imhoff (that was the Knick center he scored 100 off of), Wayne Embry? Yeah, he faced Bill Russell and the two had epic battles, but it was man vs boys competition for the most part.

    I have no doubt that if Wilt was playing in today’s game he would be a mega-star. It wasn’t just height and strength. But his numbers would be very different.

    What triggered all this is the discussion about how much rebounding can be taught to a 21-year old kid from Europe. I will claim that there’s an awful lot to learn and that with a year of solid work, kids like Hernanogomez and Porzingis can become terrific rebounders and blockers. They just need constant tutoring and to work hard at it. Jeeze, I would hire Rodman in an instant to teach them. Just keep the kids out of his makeup box please.

  40. I have no doubt that if Wilt was playing in today’s game he would be a mega-star. It wasn’t just height and strength. But his numbers would be very different

    Yup. Wilt played in an era in which NBA basketball was played at a much higher pace by men who were much worse at shooting. As a result, there were many (almost double) more opportunities to get rebounds.

  41. Cut his numbers in half and they are still remarkable. he avg 41 and 25 his first 6 years in the league.

  42. ER – the article is pretty spot on and I agree he would be dominant even today. But the numbers would skew for many reasons. He wouldn’t need to defend on the perimeter. He would need to kick out to open shooters beyond the 3-pt line. He would face comparably sized men in the paint. Given a choice of any player that ever played in the NBA, I probably would pick him first – ahead of Jordan and LeBron. I saw all three play and I admit that it would be a tough decision.

  43. Wilt was incredible. But Denis Rodman was significantly better at getting rebounds than Wilt Chamberlain.

  44. I mean, in a discussion about rebounding, why is anyone talking about how many points Wilt Chamberlain scored?

  45. Off the current topic at hand but Kevin Pelton wrote a thing today comparing his current projections to those made by ESPN’s panel of experts, and both have us around 25 wins for next season. Obviously I think most people here would be pretty disappointed in that. I’m sure we’ll get more details as the season gets closer to actually starting, but I suspect most computer-based projection systems are going to be particularly unkind towards both Calderon and Melo’s prospects for this coming season, and if you don’t think those guys are going to be pretty good it’s hard to see the Knicks being much good.

  46. So Mel Ott was a better HR hitter than Babe Ruth because he was 5’9? and 170 while Ruth was 6’2? and listed at 215. Is that the version of logic we have here?

    Cmon man that’s a total reach. No one is saying or implying anything close to that. When hitting home runs, you are not physically battling with guys to get to the ball. Therefore, you don’t have to be “big” to hit a home run. You do have to have skill. Rodman was very skilled at getting rebounds while being smaller than most of his competition. That is clear to see. Don’t get me wrong, I see what you’re trying to say. It just doesn’t apply.

  47. Wilt was incredible. But Denis Rodman was significantly better at getting rebounds than Wilt Chamberlain.

    Yeah, Chamberlain would be a star no matter what era he was in. Same with Russell. They’re not, like, George Mikan, where he likely would not be a star in the modern NBA. Those guys would be flat out studs in the current NBA. They just wouldn’t be averaging over 20 boards per game.

    Rodman was a much more limited player than either Wilt or Russell. It’s just that the one thing he was really good at he was really, really good at.

  48. The thing people talking about Rodman’s size are missing is that even though he was relatively short he was still better at getting rebounds than anyone else. I believe P Jax called him the best athlete he’s ever coached-while that might just be some zen trollery, Rodman was really fast for a big man and was in phenomenal shape.

  49. I believe P Jax called him the best athlete he’s ever coached-while that might just be some zen trollery, Rodman was really fast for a big man and was in phenomenal shape.

    Read somewhere (I forget where), that his body fat % hovered around 2 (!!!) to 4 %, which is normally dangerous even for elite athletes. Speaks to the athleticism though.

  50. I just don’t think you can fairly compare role players to all-around players, especially across eras.

    But put it this way. In my opinion, if prime Chamberlain and prime Rodman were in a gameon otherwise equal opposing teams, and they had a $100,000,000 bet on who would get the most rebounds in the game and another $100,000,000 on who won the game, all of my money plus whatever I could borrow would be on Chamberlain.

    Remember this: Russell set the record for most rebounds in a game with 53. Chamberlain promptly broke Russell’s record by getting 54 rebounds in a game against Russell.

  51. “Rodman was really fast for a big man and was in phenomenal shape.”

    He wasnt really a big though right? He seemed to be smaller than Lebron, or even Melo for that fact.

  52. But put it this way. In my opinion, if prime Chamberlain and prime Rodman were in a gameon otherwise equal opposing teams, and they had a $100,000,000 bet on who would get the most rebounds in the game and another $100,000,000 on who won the game, all of my money plus whatever I could borrow would be on Chamberlain.

    lol please stop

  53. If we’re grading rebounders on a height curve, Jason Kidd should be in the conversation. So should Lafayette Lever, who was even shorter and had a higher career reb% than Kidd. And Sidney Moncrief should get some recognition too, because his offensive rebounding was unreal for a guard, especially his first 6 seasons when he was basically the Dennis Rodman of guards, averaging an Oreb% of over 9, including his rookie season of 11.1% which stands today as the greatest Oreb% by a guard in any single season.

  54. Wasn’t there like 6 NBA teams largely filled with athletes that needed second jobs to provide enough income during the majority of Russell and Wilt’s prime? Wilt looks like a men amongst boys in the youtube videos I’ve seen but the talent in the league during that time was simply not there which surely leads to skewing of stats…

  55. The best rebounding team in the NBA last season didn’t average 50 rebounds per game. Think about that. Wilt was playing in a vastly different league. When he was on the floor Rodman grabbed many more of the available rebounds than Wilt did.

  56. Isola claims we’re interested in bringing back Jamal Crawford, but as the rest of basketball Twitter has pointed out, the only piece we could actually move for him is Calderon, and why would the Clippers want to do that?

    Given our lack of depth in the backcourt and potential lack of scoring beyond Melo, I wouldn’t mind Jamal on this roster, but there’s no feasible trade.

  57. @64 isnt there a way to adjust for pace? Because i just feel like this is an absurd conversation right now. No way in hell Rodman grabs boards over Wilt. Just not happening. I dont know how you want to quantify this. Wilt was a freak athlete AND he was big and strong.

  58. “Given our lack of depth in the backcourt and potential lack of scoring beyond Melo, I wouldn’t mind Jamal on this roster, but there’s no feasible trade.”

    Yeah.

  59. Isola claims we’re interested in bringing back Jamal Crawford, but as the rest of basketball Twitter has pointed out, the only piece we could actually move for him is Calderon, and why would the Clippers want to do that?

    Isola is downright hilarious. He posts the article positing that we’re interested in trading for Crawford using the trade exception we got from JR. Twitter correctly points out we no longer have that trade exception. Isola deletes that sentence from the article, so that now the article makes no sense as written: “The Knicks have expressed interest in acquiring Clippers guard Jamal Crawford, according to a source. Coincidentally, the Cavs are also pursuing a deal for Crawford, the 34-year-old former Sixth Man of the Year” (Previously there was a sentence about how they would use the trade exception they got from the Cavs, hence the coincidence). No mention of a correction of course. Just a tweet saying “To be clear, Knicks need to get creative to acquire Crawford”, as though he was previously just unclear and not factually incorrect. Then he quickly changes the subject by starting to tweet about the ESPN projections. Hard to believe some people don’t trust the media…

  60. Aha, so that’s why the article made no sense. Thanks! I did a quick write-up on it, and added that part. Thanks thenamestam!

  61. Wasn’t there like 6 NBA teams largely filled with athletes that needed second jobs to provide enough income during the majority of Russell and Wilt’s prime? Wilt looks like a men amongst boys in the youtube videos I’ve seen but the talent in the league during that time was simply not there which surely leads to skewing of stats…

    Rodman’s greatest rebounds per game season wouldn’t even make the top four in most of the early to mid 1960s seasons. The rebounding environment was a joke. Things weren’t fixed until some folks realized that the NBA’s racist policies were leaving a whole pile of great black players available, so they formed a rival league, the ABA, which forced the NBA to actually play their best players and then “shockingly” rebounds per game averages plummeted to normal rates (while still enhanced a bit due to pace – the slowest paced team in 1971-72 had a pace of 108. The fastest paced team in 2014-15 had a pace of 98).

  62. isnt there a way to adjust for pace? Because i just feel like this is an absurd conversation right now. No way in hell Rodman grabs boards over Wilt. Just not happening. I dont know how you want to quantify this. Wilt was a freak athlete AND he was big and strong

    Rodman played against Shaq, Olajuwon, Ewing, Mutumbo, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, etc… These are all freak athletes who are big and strong. Rodman rebounded circles around them.

    In 1994, Rodman led the league with a 29.7 reb%(!). The second highest percentage was Mutumbo at 19.9%.

  63. Aha, so that’s why the article made no sense. Thanks! I did a quick write-up on it, and added that part. Thanks thenamestam!

    No problem. It was way too funny not to post something about. Isola is such a clown.

  64. In 1972-73 at the age of 36, a “washed up” Wilt Chamberlain led the league in total rebounds with 18.6, over Thurmond, Cowens, Kareem, Unseld and Lanier. Wilt was 2nd in total reb% at 19.6 %, edged out by Clifford Ray at 19.9%. His rebound% that year was higher than a bunch of scrubs named Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Nate Thurmond, Paul Silas, Dave Cowens, Elvin Hayes, Spencer Haywood and Willis Reed.

    Rodman’s rebound% in his first 4 years as a pro (at a rather old age 25-28) was never above 19.8% In all the years that Rodman had a rebound% of over 20%, his usage% was under 11.7%. For all of his great defense, he only averaged more than 1.0 block per 36 one time. And Rodman was rarely defending or boxing out Shaq, Olajuwon, Ewing, Mutumbo, or Robinson. So he didn’t block shots or score, freeing him up to focus on rebounding.

    On another note, I am convinced that Rodman was a heavy steriods user, as were probably a bunch of NBA players from that era (why would we think that the NBA was different than MLB or NFL?)

    Look at his career. How many guys actually improve athletically and statistically from age 30 to 35 like he did?

  65. So he didn’t block shots or score, freeing him up to focus on rebounding.

    So is your position that Wilt would have been a better rebounder than Rodman if Rodman was tasked with the same responsibilities that Wilt had? Or that Wilt showed that he was the better rebounder during his time in the NBA? I think that the only way to determine the best rebounder ever is to look at the stats available, and besides the gaudy per game stats that Wilt has because of pace and competition, Rodman comes out on top.

    No way in hell Rodman grabs boards over Wilt. Just not happening.

    I didn’t realize we were talking about a game of 1 on 1…and you could say the same thing about Rodman not being able to grab boards over Dwight Howard. It seems to me that the player who grabbed the most available rebounds (reb %) would tell you who demonstrated themselves as the best rebounder, and it adjusts for pace as well.

  66. “Look at his career. How many guys actually improve athletically and statistically from age 30 to 35 like he did?”
    True, and I’m usually a big PED skeptic when guys suddenly improve, but I read somewhere recently that Rodman grew from 5’10” to 6’7″ when he was like 20 years old. So, it is possible that he was just an extremely late bloomer.

  67. The thing I don’t like about this “Rodman Debate” is it seems like the anti Rodmans feel like folks are saying Wilt or Malone or whoever weren’t great rebounders. When someone says or insinuates that those guys aren’t quite in Rodman’s class as a rebounder, it is not a slight against them. Why can’t Rodman be recognized as a truly elite rebounder? He’s that good that we can say or at least consider him the best rebounder ever. Would we say Ewing’s not a great center? His numbers and effect on the court speak for itself. So does Rodman’s. And Wilt’s. Wilt was awesome. No debate there. But what he did in his era rebounding-wise doesn’t quite compare to what Rodman did. Wilt was 7’1″, strong, crazy athletic for a guy his size, and not going up against guys his size more often than not. He played against great players sure, but few that could push him around and compete with him physically. Rodman, at 6’7″ 220, had to go against Shaq/Ewing/Dream/Oakley/Barkley/Mailman/McHale/Parish/Bird/Smits/Kemp and a lot of other guys who were bigger and stronger than him. That’s a helluva gauntlet.

  68. Z-Man has a hard-on for Wilt. If you look at that data set (where Rodman has like, 8 of the best rebounding seasons) and don’t see how utterly dominant he is, you’re never going to.

  69. Z-Man has a hard-on for Wilt. If you look at that data set (where Rodman has like, 8 of the best rebounding seasons) and don’t see how utterly dominant he is, you’re never going to.

    Remember, though, like I noted when I posted it, rebounding percentage was not recorded until the early 1970s. I am sure that Russell and Chamberlain would have come out very well in rebounding percentage during their careers. Rebounding percentage was just to differentiate Rodman from Malone. Not Russell or Chamberlain. There you just have to look at the eras.

    I think their environment was too watered down by NBA racism to compare their numbers favorably to Rodman’s, but it is fair to note that even when the racism petered out (well, the effect of the racism, at least), Wilt’s rebounding percentage was still quite good. The odds are, though, that his rebounding percentage in his peak years would not have been as good as Rodman’s peak years, though. There were just so many more rebounds back then (due to pace and worse shooting) that even the high numbers of rebounds that Wilt and Russell got back then would not have corresponded with rebounding percentages in the same realm as Rodman’s. As I noted earlier, one of the years where Wilt had over 22 boards per game, his own teammate had over 18 boards per game! So how in the world would Wilt have a rebounding percentage approaching Rodman’s when his own teammate was that close to him?

    I think Russell and Wilt were both on Rodman’s level, I just think Rodman was better than both at rebounding. It likely is not a huge advantage to Rodman over those two, though. And they were much better than Rodman in everything else.

  70. I thought it was pretty open and shut that Rodman was the best rebounder ever (or at the very least of the modern era). It doesn’t matter whose role was what. The why doesn’t matter as much as the what. What we know is that nobody grabbed a greater percentage of available rebounds than Dennis Rodman. Would Wilt, if placed in a similar role in a similar era, have done the same thing? Who knows. There’s no real point in discussing what ifs. When it comes to rebounding, there’s the GOAT in Rodman, and then you have all time great rebounders, HOF level rebounders, and it trickles down from there. But Rodman is the summit. I think that’s clear.

  71. I would argue that role discussion matters more when discussing current NBA players since there is a chance their roles can change and give validation to those arguments. But when discussing retired ballers, it’s just an exercise that brings no conclusions.

    That’s what August basketball threads are for, though. November can’t get here soon enough.

  72. Here’s an interesting attempt to figure that out

    The analysis by Nolan in the comments was interesting, too. It conveyed compelling reasons why it might not be so obvious a case of how much better Rodman was, once Team Rebounds were factored in, and when more competitive situations were considered (i.e., the playoffs).

    Either way, there is a clear conclusion, which is that Rodman belongs with, and probably surpasses, Wilt and Bill Russell as a rebounder. Whether it’s “probably” or “possibly” doesn’t particularly matter, because no one would debate whether Wilt or Rodman was a better player overall. Just as no one would debate that a good team is made up of players with complementary skills, and rebounding is a crucial factor in wins.

    Of course, with someone as dominant as Wilt, one needs fewer complementary skills around him, as he himself is so dominant…! Ah to have a player like that on our team…

  73. My point from the very beginning was that Rodman was a natural born athlete, not a product of coaching. Coaching helps, but players like Rodman are otherworldly. It’s like Steph Curry or Ray Allen when it comes to shooting mechanics, or Kidd or Stockton when it comes to floor vision. You can teach good behaviors, but the all-time greats have gifts that no coach can teach.

  74. I’m happy to throw my lot in with Chamberlain and Russell. Chamberlain was either first or second (only to Russell) in rebounding every year for his entire career. He did so against all-time great rebounders.

    In 1959-60, he averaged 10 more rpg than the #3 guy
    In 1960-61, 7 more
    In 1961-62, 6.6 more
    In 1962-63, 8 more

    This in spite of leading the league in scoring by wide margins in each of these years, meaning that there was usually someone between him and the basket on a huge number of offensive possessions. This was also a time when the game was played much closer to the basket…guys didn’t hang out at the 3-point line…meaning lots more competition for rebounding space under the basket.

    Here’s a bit of data for those who have a hard-on for Rodman:

    http://bkref.com/tiny/1lkhj

    In 36 head-to-head matchups Barkley was essentially equal to Rodman in rebounding. So I guess Barkley was a much better rebounder than Wilt or Russell as well, right?

  75. In 1959-60, he averaged 10 more rpg than the #3 guy
    In 1960-61, 7 more
    In 1961-62, 6.6 more
    In 1962-63, 8 more

    That really plays into the argument “against” Chamberlain, though (quotes because obviously Chamberlain and Russell were amazing, so none of this is against them in general, as both are inner circle Hall of Famers who would be superstars in any era of the NBA, including the modern NBA), as their dominance decreased as more black players got to play in the NBA. The entire argument is that, due to racism, Chamberlain was not playing against the best possible players. No NBA team had more than four black players on their team until 1963-64. 1963-64!! And that was a single NBA team. “Shockingly,” that team also won the NBA title that year.

    Say, what year did Chamberlain stop having a six board or better advantages over the #3 rebounder in the NBA?

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