Knicks Morning News (2016.11.03)

  • [NYPost] 56 most significant droughts in sports — 6 are NY-area teams
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 10:40:28 PM)

    After 108 years, the Chicago Cubs are finally World Series champions again, which means the most talked-about curse in sports has mercifully come to an end. Still, there are dozens of other clubs across the four major leagues — including the Cleveland Indians team Chicago just beat — waiting anxiously for their latest (or first)…

  • [NYPost] Jeff Hornacek: How Knicks are letting down Kristaps Porzingis
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 8:42:30 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis didn’t respond well to Tuesday’s fourth-quarter benching for defensive reasons. He didn’t have a field goal in Wednesday’s 118-99 blowout loss to Houston, getting into foul trouble and scoring three points on 0-for-4 shooting. After the game, coach Jeff Hornacek came to his defense, saying the Knicks aren’t finding him enough. “We got…

  • [NYPost] D’Antoni doesn’t sound jealous of Hornacek’s Knicks mess
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 8:29:48 PM)

    Mike D’Antoni has firsthand experience at being on the hot seat where Jeff Hornacek sits now. He knows what it is like to be the head coach of the Knicks in New York and all that comes with it: the high expectations from fans and media, and the constant second-guessing of your basketball intellect. “It’s…

  • [NYPost] Fans already turning on Hornacek’s Knicks in demoralizing wreck
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 6:11:16 PM)

    Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek talked before the game about his interview for the Rockets’ coaching job last May. At this point, Hornacek probably wishes he got the job. The Hornacek Era is off to a miserable 1-3 start after the no-defense Knicks were massacred by Mike D’Antoni’s Rockets, 118-99, as the Garden filled with the…

  • [NYPost] Rockets’ Sam Dekker dribbles ball off face in hilarious fall
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 4:56:38 PM)

    Sam Dekker forgot how to dribble.

  • [NYPost] Lance Thomas has turned into a $27 million disappearing act
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 8:50:00 AM)

    Lance Thomas is back to being Lance Thomas. And that’s not a good sign for a thin Knicks bench in need of the 6-foot-8 forward being the defensive dynamo and consistent 3-point spark on offense that surprised the NBA the first three months of last season. When Pistons coach Stan Van Gundy visited the Garden last…

  • [NYPost] Phil Jackson should get out of Jeff Hornacek’s way: Byron Scott
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 8:11:50 AM)

    If anyone can recognize a bad sign for a coach’s future, it’s Byron Scott. Even though Phil Jackson has won 11 championships as an NBA head coach, Scott thinks the Knicks president is too involved with teaching the team on a regular basis and it’s undermining the authority of new coach Jeff Hornacek. “If I…

  • [NYTimes] Rockets 118, Knicks 99: Knicks, Lacking Coordination Against Rockets, Fall Again
    (Thursday, November 03, 2016 4:36:29 AM)

    The Knicks stand at 1-3 after a second consecutive double-digit loss on a second consecutive day, with James Harden exposing defensive deficiencies.

  • [NYTimes] Kevin Durant to Face Former Team, the Thunder, for the First Time
    (Thursday, November 03, 2016 1:09:30 AM)

    Durant will be facing his former running mate Russell Westbrook, who signed an extension with the Thunder. Durant departed as a free agent in July.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ defense burned by James Harden, Rockets
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 10:29:25 PM)

    All it took was one-and-a-half home games for the Knicks to hear their first boos of the season. Unless they find a way to stop teams, those boos will rain down more often and louder.

  • [NY Newsday] Jeff Hornacek sees Knicks playing their way into better condition
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 8:05:00 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek brought up the Knicks’ conditioning for the second straight day, and said he’d like to see them get in better shape.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks continue to struggle on defensive end in loss to Pistons
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 8:37:00 AM)

    The Pistons scored 64 points in the first half and went on to beat the Knicks, 102-89, Tuesday night. The Knicks are 1-2 and have allowed at least 102 points in each game they’ve played.

  • [ESPN] Thursday’s Knicks News: Noah benched in loss to Rockets
    (Thursday, November 03, 2016 6:10:34 AM)

    Thursday’s Knicks News: Noah benched in loss to Rockets

  • [ESPN] Rose expecting boos as he returns to Chicago
    (Thursday, November 03, 2016 2:54:10 AM)

    Rose expecting boos as he returns to Chicago

  • [NYDN] Defensive woes continue, boos begin as Knicks fall to Rockets
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 11:05:59 PM)

    Another defensive dud unfolded and the fans lost their patience with a 20-point deficit just before the break.

  • [NYDN] Joakim Noah benched as ugly start can be pinned on Phil Jackson
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 11:05:40 PM)

    No way the Zen Master could have envisioned his expensive defensive anchor being replaced by Ron Baker

  • [NYDN] Why Jeff Hornacek kept Porzingis on Knicks bench vs. Pistons
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 5:07:28 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis was spectator with the game on the line and New York’s offense stalling.

  • [NYDN] Slain Knick draft pick was allegedly drugged, killed by roommate
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 3:18:54 PM)

    A former Knicks draft pick found dead last year in his Lexus SUV in Brooklyn was drugged and murdered by his roommate and an accomplice.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks drubbed by Rockets, 118-99
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 10:00:49 PM)

    James Harden had 30 points and 15 assists, and the Houston Rockets routed the New York Knicks 118-99 on Wednesday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] TD’s 3 keys vs. the Houston Rockets
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 5:27:14 PM)

    Tommy Dee’s three keys for the Knicks on Wednesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Strong point guard play creates promise for Knicks
    (Wednesday, November 02, 2016 8:28:00 AM)

    Derrick Rose and Brandon Jennings put together a strong 1-2 punch at point guard for the New York Knicks in Tuesday’s 102-89 loss to the Detroit Pistons.

  • Liked it? Take a second to support Mike Kurylo on Patreon!

    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    140 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.11.03)”

    1. Why is a 7-foot Porzingis not spending his time near the rim, using his height to rebound, block, defend and score?

      For all the rosy predictions, I’m sorry to be the first one to say it (and will pay the price with the cheerleaders ) , he is looking more Andrea Bargnani than Tim Duncan nowadays.

      Does not mean he is a guaranteed bust or a bust at all, but something is wrong with this promising young talent languishing around the 3-point arc…

    2. Did not watch the Knicks game last night but I’m guessing it was awful.

      As one of the charter members of Team Optimism, my faith is being tested a bit.

      Most worrisome is how Porzingis seems confused on the court, and how he’s already starting to complain a little bit about how he’s used and how many minutes he’s playing. 4 shots in 28 minutes is a big problem. And I think he really just can’t guard the 4 position as well as we thought he could. Whether it’s Ryan Anderson, Tobias Harris, Kevin Love, or even JaMychal Green, he has not looked good this year. He kind of drifts into the lane by habit, and just can’t get out to shooters fast enough.

      If I’m Hornacek, I consider changing the rotations such that KP plays the 5 more.

      Interesting quote from Courtney Lee last night too – because they are practicing the triangle so much on offense, they end up practicing against it defensively too — and so there is a lot of wasted defensive practice time practicing against something they’ll never see except in their own gym.

    3. Theo, when he’s near the basket he scores well. Some of his layups in traffic are very impressive. If they stopped sending him to run around like a SF he can be very good.

    4. Already comparing him to Bargnani?Wow, how quickly we give up. Perhaps they should try using him to his strengths and try passing him the ball.

      They need to ditch the triangle.

    5. AAAAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!! BURN IT DOWWWWWN!!!! START OVER!!!!!

      lol

      The best coaches coach to their best player’s strengths. It seems like Hornacek is trying to do that, but at the same time he hasn’t really figured out KP yet. I don’t have a problem with the triangle. When Hornacek talked about using it on dead ball possessions and possessions the team couldn’t get the shot before the defense could set, it sounded promising. Still does. 4 games in, the biggest problems seems to be Melo not moving well, and we really don’t have a good defensive coach to install a quality scheme. Hornacek seems like the type of coach who doesn’t micro-manage and waits to see if his players can figure it out. Which is great because it breeds trust. But he can’t do that on the defensive end. He needs a solid scheme..a system to rely on when things break down. Who could he hire to install a defense? In a strange way, I’d love to see Jerry Sloan un-retire to help him out. Other than that, I have no clue who Hornacek could bring in for defensive coaching.

    6. Interesting quote from Courtney Lee last night too – because they are practicing the triangle so much on offense, they end up practicing against it defensively too — and so there is a lot of wasted defensive practice time practicing against something they’ll never see except in their own gym.

      That’s a sharp observation from Lee. I can see him having a future in basketball once he retires as a coach or an analyst. He’s a smart guy. That said, apparently Lee was already in Jackson’s doghouse for questioning the triangle, so that’s not going to endear him to Jackson.

    7. I have Knicks in 60 on in the background. Clyde, “Anderson wears #3 as a metaphor for his prowess.” :) Keep on trying to use words you don’t quite understand, Clyde, it’s part of your charm!

    8. If the rumors are true and Phil is still trying to foist the triangle onto this team in direct contravention to the wishes of the team he needs to get the fuck out of this organization

      He’s actually an egomaniac

    9. I dunno, if he signs a guy and tells him “We’re going to play the Triangle,” I don’t think it’s unfair to insist that they play the Triangle. I don’t think they should be playing the Triangle, but I find it extremely hard to believe that Lee signed not knowing that they were going to play the Triangle this year. So being all, “Huh? Triangle?” now is a bit weird by some of these guys.

    10. I dont mind the triangle shit, I mind the bringing in an entirely new crew of guys to run it every year. And I still do not understand the Holliday trade

    11. What’s funny about this is that the Knicks have had a number of breaks through the years where a team that should have locked itself into mediocrity for quite some time has had bad luck and just fallen apart.

      I mean, what if Eddy Curry had played like he did in Chicago? What if Marbury hadn’t lost his mind so quickly? What if McDyess had recovered to being a decent player by his second year with NY? What if the picks the Knicks traded away over the years hadn’t panned out quite so well? What if Bargnani hadn’t been quite so bad?

      Many of these outcomes are 50/50 types that just didn’t work out for NY. A few breaks in the productivity department, and the last 15 years see the Knicks largely hovering in the 35-45 win range instead of the 25-35 win range.

      NO.

      Just NO.

      Go to Eddy Curry’s stat page and look at the per-minute/advanced stat number for CHI/NYK. (They break it down at the bottom in the sums.) The numbers are identical.

      The only difference between Eddy Curry in Chicago and New York, is he had Tyson Chandler next to him in Chicago.

      It’s not that the Knicks picks worked out for other teams, it’s that draft picks are valuable and shouldn’t trade them for veterans without protection or considerable value in return.

      Was Bargnani ever good? Did anyone expect him to play good? (Well yes lots of non-stat Knick fans – ironically I read some threads from 2013 – there’s so much Bargnani hope.) If Bargnani played well THAT would have been unbelievable.

      Look – let’s not pretend the Knicks are the result of bad luck. They’re like that friend you have that always brings things to the edge. You know the type. Don’t worry we have plenty of time to get there on time. (Predictably you hit traffic). Don’t worry one more drink won’t affect me. (Drags your whole crew into a bar fight). Don’t worry I’ll get paid at the end of the week and I’ll pay you back. (Loses job.)

      The Knicks are the result of their own doing.

    12. I dont mind the triangle shit, I mind the bringing in an entirely new crew of guys to run it every year. And I still do not understand the Holliday trade

      I think it makes sense. If you bring in a new crew every year, you can always argue “No, it was the turnover that made us suck. We’ll be good next year!” Same thing with the Rose trade – it was designed so that even if Rose sucks, Jackson could say, “But next year we’re going to get a star for Rose’s salary spot!” and in the meantime, he gets to add enough famous players that the team looks improved. So Jackson’s moves make sense to me in a “Cover Jackson’s ass” sort of way. Obviously, you can only do that so many years, but I guess he thinks that he will get that star player next year.

    13. When you run the Triangle you’re doing a favor to the defense, allowing players to just stay home on their man. When you run pick and roll, you force the defense to fight through screens, switch, etc.

      That’s why basically every other team in the NBA runs pick and roll almost every time down the court. And of course, when you run it against the Knicks, you’ll likely get a layup, dunk or open 3 pointer.

    14. Overheard on Knicks in 60, “Rose hit his first four shots but he’s missed his next five.”

      He seems to do that every night. Two steps forward then three steps back.

    15. I fixed it for you, Mike! You can exceed the character limits after the fact through editing a comment.

    16. If I was Horny I would experiment with the lineups

      Rose,Holiday,Lee,Melo,KP is something to look at playing for extended mins until LT can get right.

    17. Overheard on Knicks in 60, “Rose hit his first four shots but he’s missed his next five.” He seems to do that every night. Two steps forward then three steps back.

      Funny thing is they think he’s just one shot short, or one cold streak away from helping the team.

      It’s like trying to watch cavemen make sense of lightning.

      They’re just waiting for the basketball gods to be less angry and allow Rose’s shots to fall in to the basket. Clearly we haven’t sacrificed enough goats midcourt.

    18. If I was Horny I would experiment with the lineups

      Why start at the lineups. Let’s experiment with the roster. Heck half of Westchester would be on the roster.

      Honestly I’d take a handful of guys from the Gotham Ballers too. Balkman, K-Mart, even Al Harrington. Heck Daniel Gibson still has a career ts% of 54.2%.

    19. Now I’m up to the point in the game where Horny played Melo at center for a few awful minutes. Melo, as center, posted up on three Rockets and got the ball stripped.

    20. There is literally nothing Hornacek (who might be a great coach or a poor coach, who knows) can do to make this roster play much better that what we are getting.

      They are just not very good and if we need to blame somebody, Phil Jackson, not Hornacek, is the man.

    21. Anyone figure out what D’Antoni and Jennings were jawing about at the end of the game? Was it seriously that the Knicks took a three at the end of the game? That can’t be it, can it?

    22. When you run the Triangle you’re doing a favor to the defense, allowing players to just stay home on their man. When you run pick and roll, you force the defense to fight through screens, switch, etc.

      I’m not Triangle expert but I don’t think that’s true at all. They don’t just stand there. The whole point is that there is a lot of off-ball movement, cutting, etc.

      I think it’s just too complicated for the limited amount of practice time all teams get now, and on top of that, our new PG and C were injured/in court for much of the preseason when they actually would have had time to practice.

      Crazy that I agree with Byron Scott, but he’s right – either Phil Jackson should coach the team or he should let Hornacek do whatever he wants. He can’t be down on the court schooling players on the intricacies of the Triangle.

    23. He can’t be down on the court schooling players on the intricacies of the Triangle.

      The worst thing was that he clearly did it in front of the media on purpose. He waited until there was media around so that everyone could see him talking to the guys about the triangle.

    24. It’s still awfully early to be jumping off any bridges, but I will say that B2B was about as dispiriting as they get. @Bull on Friday into Jazz on Sunday hardly looks like a reprieve.

      As far as pointing fingers, everyone played so poorly last night that you hardly even know where to start. Rose has a truly uncanny ability to kind of seem to play well in games where he ends up shooting 40% – against the perimeter defenders Houston runs out there 8-18 really isn’t cutting it. Melo continues to look really not great physically, and his frustration looked on the point of boiling over at times already last night. Noah I know is supposed to be the guy whose impact isn’t felt on the stat sheet, but 1 point, 2 rebounds and 4 assists in 18 minutes is maybe taking that a stretch too far. Oh yeah, and the Rockets were running a layup line against our interior defense. Only 9 minutes for Lance (although he did make a shot) – feels like he’s rapidly playing his way out of the rotation right now.

      And Porzingis, sweet KP, my love. He gets a lot of leeway in terms of poor play, but he’s looking quite lost out there at the moment. Both games of the back to back had similar patterns where he’s not organically involved in the offense at all, so he seems to start hunting his shots at some point. Against Detroit he hit a couple to salvage his statline, last night he missed a couple and dwindled from the game. We need to find a way to get him more touches and shots early so he’s really involved in the game. Defensively he’s a mess right now but I put that more on the rotations than anything. Both Chicago and Utah play a bit bigger so maybe those will be more comfortable for him.

      Those not listed honestly sucked also. Knicks player of the game was…Lee maybe? Shot well and didn’t really get too much more extensively cooked by Harden than you’d expect.

    25. This team is right on schedule. We’re learning how to play with one another and what the coach wants. We’re A-ok.

    26. Horny is headed in a direction where he has to start a jennings /rose backcourt, its inevitable.
      clearly jennings facilitates better than rose at pg(has rose assisted a KP fg yet?)
      that offense creates less pressure on noah and lee and lance who are ‘glue’ guys…

    27. Guys, do not despair. I’ve got the trade in January which works for both teams:

      Rubio/Pekovic — Lee/Jennings/KOQ/two 2nd round picks

      Chris Dunn is their future and the ability to unload Pekovic’s contract plus acquire Lee and some serviceable backups on favorable contracts might be very attractive. We start Rubio/Holiday/KP/Noah/Melo and maaaybe have a top 10 defense depending on Melo; on offense we have to hope Holiday shoots 3s like he did at end of last year but at least our ball movement/team play should be better. Let Rose do his thing in a second unit. Rubio is still young and should help KP’s game now and in the future.

    28. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rubio is moved, but if he is, it won’t be to just dump Pekovic’s salary.

    29. Also Porzingis is simply being misused–he can defend out to the three point line, but shouldn’t be forced to run around away from the rim constantly. He’s also not getting enough touches. He’s not playing well, but the way the team is structured and run isn’t helping

    30. Anyone figure out what D’Antoni and Jennings were jawing about at the end of the game? Was it seriously that the Knicks took a three at the end of the game? That can’t be it, can it?

      The three point shot is religion for D’Antoni. Every three pointer is sacred. Remember when he went ape-shit when Nate Robinson took a shot post-buzzer?

    31. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rubio is moved, but if he does, it won’t be to just dump Pekovic’s salary.

      You don’t think Lee would be an attractive piece to them?

    32. They wouldn’t mind having Lee, but he’s not a guy you trade a great asset like Rubio for. If they deal Rubio, it’s going to be for an actual return. Like a first round draft pick. Otherwise, they’re better off just keeping the guy. He’s signed for two more years after this one for a salary that is very, very reasonable under the new cap.

    33. I don’t think it’s too early to talk Rubio trades, as I think he will be traded. But yes, I agree that it is very unlikely that he will be traded to the Knicks.

    34. This team is right on schedule.

      Yup, they’re right on schedule, all right! Right on schedule for a high lottery pick.

      They rank 26th in offensive rating, 29th in defensive rating, and dead last, 30 out of 30, in SRS. They did manage to squeak out that W against Memphis but overall they have been the worst team in the NBA so far. They have played the 19th most difficult schedule in the league and rank 29th in point differential.

      They’re one of the worst rebounding teams in the league. They have a .476 offensive eFG% and are allowing a .524 defensive eFG%. Four of the top eight players in minutes played have negative Win Share totals. The big free agent acquisition is already so old and creaky he is already being rested on back-to-backs four games into the first season of a four year contract. Calling them a dumpster fire is an insult to dumpster fires.

      I’m sure they’ll turn it around in the next game though, when they face the team with the #1 SRS in the league, the Bulls. I’m sure by then they’ll have this triangle thing all figured out and they will have learned how to defend basketball’s most basic play, the pick and roll. They’re right on the verge of greatness, dudes!

    35. The problem with Rose is he now does absolutely nothing except shoot. He’s a laughable defender who doesn’t pass much. That means he HAS to shoot well to be anything other than a liability. He’s basically Tim Hardaway Jr. on a max contract without the 3PT shot.

    36. “Yup, they’re right on schedule, all right! Right on schedule for a high lottery pick.”

      disagree, they’ll figure out just enough to blow that

    37. disagree, they’ll figure out just enough to blow that

      That’s where I’m at, as well. They’re likely not this bad, which just means that they’ll be good enough to end up at the back end of the lottery.

    38. It’s never happening. Especially now that he looks a bit slower than last year, so the offers won’t even be as good as they would have been last year.

    39. I know, but at least he’ll get his full trade kicker this year, which would make it appealing to him. I’m sure we could at least get a first round pick. I mean, someone traded a solid center and a first round pick coming off his rookie year for Derrick Rose! Names still mean something!

    40. i dont think melo looks slow, everyone looks bad now…heck, KP got a Bargnani comparision… that was a low blow

    41. On offense he looks fine. It’s on defense that he looks a little slower, especially guarding typical modern NBA 3s.

    42. The problem with Rose is he now does absolutely nothing except shoot. He’s a laughable defender who doesn’t pass much. That means he HAS to shoot well to be anything other than a liability. He’s basically Tim Hardaway Jr. on a max contract without the 3PT shot.

      I actually don’t think Rose’s defense has been that bad. Hard to tell considering how bad the entire team’s defense has been, but KP actually has the worst DRtg on the starting 5. Noah is the only player on the entire team with a positive on-court NetRtg (+1.8).

      As bad as the starting 5 has been (with a net rating of ~-9 to -12 not counting Noah), the team has been even worse with them off the court – to the tune of -13 to -24. The offense absolutely implodes when bench units are on the floor.

      Small samples of course, but it’s hard to find anything positive about this start, even for me.

    43. I really think Hornacek has to rejigger his rotation to get Rose more with the 2nd unit offense, and honestly maybe play Baker more, who’s a much better shooter than either Rose or Jennings and is at least comparable defensively even at this point in his career. It just makes much more sense to have more shooting on the floor when running the offense through Melo and Noah. Conversely, that 2nd unit needs someone who can attack AND finish (jennings can attack but can’t finish).

    44. Yeah these last 2 games have shook me to the core, not gonna lie. I wasn’t expecting a win last night bc Houston is tough and we’re still figuring things out, but they really just destroyed us. And KP playing so poorly is really troubling. And if this PJ triangle stuff is true then that’s the most disturbing bc he said he wasn’t going to meddle and he hired Hornaceck to move away from that, or so he said.

      The defense is what needs to be fixed first and foremost. Offensively they aren’t that bad. But KP looks lost on both ends and that’s not good. I mean what happened between the win on Saturday and these 2 games? How is it such a step back?

    45. Is there a way to make a Rose trade happen? Someone desperate for a PG at the deadline? Is there such a team with an expiring contract to match Rose’s salary, and an additional asset to make it a good trade for the Knicks?

    46. I think this team might end up being a legit bad, high lottery team. Joakim Noah looks positively moribund, and he was the linchpin of the season. Any road to respectability was going to lead through a rejuvenated and productive Joakim Noah and so far that is not happening.

      I guess the Knicks might eventually get better at running the triangle, but they’re miles away and may find themselves in a big hole before long. Their next five games are against CHI, BKN, UTA, BOS and TOR. The Brooklyn game is maybe winnable. Those other games do not look very winnable to me. Ten games in they will probably be something like 2-8 or 3-7.

      The one cause for “optimism” is that the Knicks are relatively injury-proof. When half of the guys in your rotation are playing like replacement players, it doesn’t really matter much if they get hurt and have to be replaced by, y’know, actual replacement players.

    47. Do people in the “don’t say a word until game 20!” crowd expect to make the playoffs? Cause if we’re like 5-15 or some shit, we probably aren’t making the playoffs even if we improve substantially at that (arbitrary) point.

    48. I think this team might end up being a legit bad, high lottery team.

      Definitely possible, especially if Noah is really this washed up.

    49. I def think we’re playoff caliber as far as the talent on this team. On paper anyways. But with every team its about how they play together. You can have all the talent in the world and if there isn’t communication or good energy between the players it doesn’t matter at all. And teams without a lot of talent can make the playoffs if they play well TOGETHER.

      When KP only gets 4 shots there is a problem.

    50. This team isn’t just bad in a “the shots aren’t falling” kind of way. They look completely dysfunctional, utterly lost on both ends, rudderless.

      I think we all hoped that the Knicks would be running a triangle in name only, that Hornacek would be allowed to follow the model that Golden State or San Antonio runs where there are “triangle concepts” and “triangle sets” incorporated but there is no rigid adherence to the offense. This does not look like it is turning out to be true. Considering all the roster turnover, it would have made some sense to start with a more basic, pick-and-roll oriented offense and incorporate more triangle stuff as the team got more comfortable with it. BUT NOOOOOOO. Gotta cram the triangle offense down everybody’s throats at all times.

    51. The Knicks will make the playoffs. The Bulls game will play put similarly to the Memphis game. Utah is a toss up

    52. Can we *internationally* trade Rose for Marbury and two jars of chinese vaseline?

      Why do I find myself mispelling Porkzingis’ name all the time?

      Melo is so out of shape when Hornywreck calls fast break he hears breakfast.

    53. I think we all hoped that the Knicks would be running a triangle in name only, that Hornacek would be allowed to follow the model that Golden State or San Antonio runs where there are “triangle concepts” and “triangle sets” incorporated but there is no rigid adherence to the offense.

      And that’s what they did against Memphis, which was their best game!

    54. When you run the Triangle you’re doing a favor to the defense, allowing players to just stay home on their man. When you run pick and roll, you force the defense to fight through screens, switch, etc.

      I’m not Triangle expert but I don’t think that’s true at all. They don’t just stand there. The whole point is that there is a lot of off-ball movement, cutting, etc.

      I think it’s just too complicated for the limited amount of practice time all teams get now, and on top of that, our new PG and C were injured/in court for much of the preseason when they actually would have had time to practice.

      Crazy that I agree with Byron Scott, but he’s right – either Phil Jackson should coach the team or he should let Hornacek do whatever he wants. He can’t be down on the court schooling players on the intricacies of the Triangle.

      I’m sorry, every other freakin’ team runs pick and roll and there’s a reason for that – it opens things up and forces the D into making switching decisions (of course, when it’s the Knicks, it’s ALWAYS switch) Zinger would be perfect for the pick and pop, but instead we have 4 players standing around watching Rose and Melo go one on one.

      I am so done with Phil and his “philosophy”. Run the damn pick and roll 90% of the time, it’s not that complicated.

    55. I would love a Rose trade if only to ensure that he doesn’t get a multi-year deal from the Knicks, followed by r/nyknicks being flooded with posts like, “It’s not Rose’s fault that we went 27-55! He was one of the bright spots!”

    56. Derrick Rose is taking the second most shots on the team and he sucks at putting the ball through the hoop. Joakim Noah can’t shoot at all. Triangle, pick and roll-it doesn’t fucking matter.

    57. Rose will eventually deliver a 28-point game that will be used as proof he is still capable of great play and only needs a bit of patience on the part of demanding NY fans.

    58. a 28-point game and a solid win for rose against chicago with 10 assits to KP would probably sway me !

    59. Derrick Rose is taking the second most shots on the team and he sucks at putting the ball through the hoop. Joakim Noah can’t shoot at all. Triangle, pick and roll-it doesn’t fucking matter.

      You’re right. The way this roster is set up, this ain’t gonna be a top offensive team. They might be marginally better if they weren’t flailing around trying to learn some antiquated offense that is going to be extinct very soon, but they wouldn’t be drastically better.

    60. @60

      This team isn’t just bad in a “the shots aren’t falling” kind of way. They look completely dysfunctional, utterly lost on both ends, rudderless.

      @65

      Zinger would be perfect for the pick and pop, but instead we have 4 players standing around watching Rose and Melo go one on one. I am so done with Phil and his “philosophy”. Run the damn pick and roll 90% of the time, it’s not that complicated.

      Exactly. But this obvious dysfunction is why I think the team will actually improve a bit in the short term (how could it get worse?). No way Dolan accepts being down 20 in the first quarter — every game. They will change the offense, and you will hear the word “simplify” a lot from coaches (just like last year). PJ will also lament (again) that modern players don’t have the same tools as back in the day.

      The Knicks will still suck, but they will at least repeat some simple things that work on offense, to get KP his shots. Thus far I honestly haven’t seen the same play twice except (a) clear out for Melo and (b) stand around and watch Rose drive.

    61. The offense should get better as the turnovers go down a bit. I hope the defense can get better-I’m more surprised by the shitty defense than the shitty offense.

    62. I’m very surprised if Phil is forcing a more pure Triangle on the team. To me, Joakim “Dimes” Noah screams for Triangle-like stuff featuring lots of cutting leading to easy baskets. If nobody springs free, Noah then passes and sets pick. Hornacek took a 25 win Phoenix team to 48 wins overnight and he didn’t have Jordan and Pippen. Jax, let him do his thing!

    63. My guess is Phil is gone after this season and grumbles a lot about how kids these days just don’t understand the triangle because AAU or something blah blah blah. We can only hope his third consecutive attempt to make the playoffs fails as spectacularly as the first and we get another high pick. Still seems likely that we wind up in the dreaded 30-35 wins category.

    64. Half the reason the triangle worked in Chicago was that you couldn’t overload the strong side on defense a la thibs

      Plus the whole series of all time greats that played in the triangle with perfect skill sets for the triangle etc. heh.

    65. I hope the defense can get better-I’m more surprised by the shitty defense than the shitty offense.

      They need to have a defense only practice

    66. So the Knicks’ starting lineup has 0 players over 0.100 WS/48 and two guys (Rose, Lee) with negative WS/48. Overall, there are six players on the roster with negative WS/48. KOQ and Kuzminskas are the only players with positive BPMs.

      Safe to say things will get better but that’s mostly just because they can’t get much worse.

    67. The only way we get better defensively is if Noah and Porzingis play more minutes. The Knicks also need to do a better job of getting back because we are getting lit up in transition. It’s no surprise that we beat Memphis considering that’s a team that wants to slow it down instead of running. Cleveland, Houston, and Detroit were all able to push the tempo against us because we can’t stop a fast break. And Joakim Noah really needs to play 30 minutes a game. He hasn’t played 25 minutes in a game all season and we can’t keep that trend alive.

    68. I would love a Rose trade if only to ensure that he doesn’t get a multi-year deal from the Knicks, followed by r/nyknicks being flooded with posts like, “It’s not Rose’s fault that we went 27-55! He was one of the bright spots!”

      Yeah, if the season goes to shit, everyone will blame it on Noah and Hornacek. And that will be a big part of it, but the fact that Rose isn’t a good player anymore will again be avoided. Although reading through the game thread on r/nyknicks yesterday, there were a lot of people digging at Melo… more than I’ve ever seen before.

    69. I think moving Rose to the 2nd Unit would work out really well. Kristaps can be featured more at the beginning of games. Maybe he catches a rhythm better this way.

      He can still score, and he would be going against second string players. This would balance out the team more. And for the longevity of Rose’s career I think he could have alot of value around the league as a 6th man. Instant offense type player. Maybe a team makes a play of Rose at the deadline. So far he looks to be in really good shape. If I’m the Clippers I would be interested.

      If only his Ego would allow. Traditionally these type of players have a hard time making this type of transition. Ex Allen Iverson.

    70. @81

      Although reading through the game thread on r/nyknicks yesterday, there were a lot of people digging at Melo… more than I’ve ever seen before.

      Justifiably so. He’s been awful and with a bad attitude that is contagious. Someone in the game thread worried about the bad influence of this season on KP’s mindset, and I completely agree.

      I think Melo might win a ring one day but somewhere else, in a year plus. He’ll be that sixth man who comes in and heats it up for 15 pts when necessary. That role will best suit his temperament and his stamina. Then he’ll get the “redemption” story in SI that he craves. But he will never be a leader.

    71. For the triangle to be successful, there needs to be a player that demands a doube-team. So far, from the looks of it, Melo is not that kind of player any more. He looks somewhat easy to guard on the perimeter 1-on-1, and can be forced into tough shots around the rim without fouling him. He definitely seems to have lost athleticism, and since no one else on the team demands a double-team, he and everyone else is totally guarded most of the time. Guys are looking to pass, but no one is open, and the defense is lurking in the passing lanes.

      This is not a triangle-friendly roster. I’m with d-mar on this one. They might still not be good with more PnR, but they will be just like what we’ve seen w/o it.

    72. Justifiably so. He’s been awful and with a bad attitude that is contagious. Someone in the game thread worried about the bad influence of this season on KP’s mindset, and I completely agree.

      I don’t think Melo has been awful offensively….its the D team wide including him. Yes he was frustrated yesterday but KP needs to step up. I know some are afraid to criticize him here but he needs to play with a bit more fire offensively and Defensively.

    73. Not one player with a contract value above Kyle O Quinn or Porzingis has played worthy of their valuation. That’s a recipe for a 30 win or less team.

    74. Yes he was frustrated yesterday but KP needs to step up

      Agreed. KP is running around like a deer, but Melo is the veteran who is just scowling, playing one on one, and acting like everyone is in his way. The other guys seem to sense this. Noah has the right temperament but he’s sucking wind up and down the court. No one else seems to have swagger on D. I know the nineties are long gone, but we could use a stare down or two from Anthony Mason after a stop (KOQ?).

    75. I want Hornacek to succeed, and he has been given a weak hand here, but some of the totally absurd lack of preparation has to fall on his shoulders. I get that they’re wasting time trying to learn the ancient ways of the triangle, but you have to put some practice time in there for basic pick and roll defense considering that is what all 29 of the Knicks’ opponents are going to be running. The Knicks are just helpless the minute an opposing big sets a screen.

      There are also major effort issues. Rebounding is poor. Defensive rotations are poor. Everybody is playing soft and tentative. It doesn’t help that Noah is essentially a part time player.

    76. The biggest problem on offense is Noah- the Knicks are essentially playing 4 on 5 at all times and he’s not getting to the offensive glass enough to make up for it. On defense it’s KP and Melo. Melo’s man defense has been bad and his rotations slow. KP is just constantly out of position- ball-watching and then scrambling to get back to his man plus on pnrs he most often just switches rather than showing and getting back to his man leaving him stuck on a guard and one of our crappy points trying to keep a big out of the lane. Even when they get stops the rebounds are often contested enough (it’d help if KP grabbed the ball rather than trying to tip it to somebody) that they can’t get out and run. Obviously it’s really early and you have to think it can’t be this bad all season but….

    77. Shouldn’t players have a basic grasp about how to play pick and roll defense, from you know playing basketball. Is it really a wheel that needs to be reinvented with every new car passenger?

    78. Joakim Noah is more than an offensive zero. He can’t score but he’ll set great screens and lead the Knicks in assists. There has to be something wrong with him, though. He’s not playing many minutes (and should honestly just come off the bench if he can’t play 25 minutes a night) and he’s not looking at the basket to score at all. He’s the most important player to our immediate success and we need him to be better.

    79. @91

      There has to be something wrong with him, though. He’s not playing many minutes (and should honestly just come off the bench if he can’t play 25 minutes a night)

      To his credit, Noah was pretty angry when he came out, but Hornacek seems to be treating these first 5+ games as preseason (b/c of Rose’s trial). And for sure coach doesn’t want to “break” Noah or Rose before they’ve played even ten games together.

      @90 I think Hornacek said something similar in an interview. He might have to re-consider.

      For those who know better, did Thibodeau run some “genius” defensive system in Chicago, or did he just get the guys to play hard?

    80. I didn’t read most of this, and I didnt watch most of the game either, so take this with a grain of salt.

      Most issues will resolve themselves with time. The only starters with continuity are KP and Melo. New coach. New vocal leaders. New system. Playing against playoff caliber talent in the first few weeks.

      This is going to take time, and like surgery, you don’t blame the new instrument when it’s not being used properly the first time.

    81. It’s like trying to watch cavemen make sense of lightning.

      well – that just about sums up the knicks for the last 15 years or so (with a little sexual deviate behavior thrown in)…knick fandom is like staring into a dark, deep and daunting abyss…no light, no happy ending on its way…

      so glad to share this joy with you all…

      @93 – you’re sounding way too detached…i’m jealous…

    82. Noah’s passing is nice, but most teams can count on some relatively high-efficiency buckets from the guy on their team who tends to play right near the basket. The Knicks can’t. In Noah’s prime he could get you the occasional garbage bucket but so far on offense Noah looks disturbingly like he looked last year, which is to say incredibly feeble. And as many have said it is not encouraging that he is playing such limited minutes and making such a limited impact four games into his four-year contract.

      I thought years three and four of that contract were going to be disastrous, but he is already playing in year one the way I thought he’d play in year four. Maybe he’s still banged up from the preseason or something and he’s not 100% right now, but his play has been ominous.

    83. Joakim Noah was mostly a 30 MPG player even in his prime. He’s only had three seasons over 30.6 MPG and two over 32.8. It shouldn’t be surprising that at 31, he’s more of a 20-25 MPG player.

    84. Joakim Noah was mostly a 30 MPG player even in his prime. He’s only had three seasons over 30.6 MPG and two over 32.8. It shouldn’t be surprising that at 31, he’s more of a 20-25 MPG player.

      You’re right, it shouldn’t be surprising, which is why it made zero sense to give him the contract in the first place. There’s only so much impact the guy is going to have playing 22 minutes per game.

    85. In addition to all of the great things he is doing, it would really help the cause if Noah could score more than zero. I don’t think that’s too much to ask for 72 mil

    86. Knicks need to bring in Tim Grover or give Melo, Noah, and Rose a week off to go to Miami. ;)

    87. The problem with Noah as a screener is that he hardly ever rolls so his man just sags into the paint- you can kick it out to him and he does make nice passes but since he doesn’t shoot and the paint is clogged most often those passes are going to be out towards the perimeter. Rose might actually be kind of functional (if still not good) if he had a pnr partner who actually rolled hard to the hoop- last year with Gasol, this year with Noah, Melo and KP, he’s had guys who prefer to pick and pop. Maybe it’s Plumlee time!

    88. Just how dumb are you guys?

      The team has played less than a handful of games together. And with a new coach too. They probably don’t even know each other’s names yet.

    89. Derrick’s skills are there; his penetration is good, but he seems disinterested and not enjoying ‘putting it in the hole’ as the oldtimers used to say.

      Maybe the new surroundings are affecting Rose. If I were PJ, I’d bring two best friends of his choice to keep him company during this difficult transition period.

    90. Just how dumb are you guys?

      The team has played less than a handful of games together. And with a new coach too. They probably don’t even know each other’s names yet.

      How do you explain the Bulls?

      and, that has been an annual excuse for the Knicks since the days of Isaiah. In effect, we are “punting: the first 5, 10, 20 games every year if that is valid.

    91. Update from NYK Alumni Club:

      Wednesday night opened up the door for minutes from Denzel Valentine and Jerian Grant. The former only received seven minutes and for the most part from my perspective held his own on both ends. But it was the latter of the two that really impressed. Grant started the season completely out of the rotation and on the inactive list for the Bulls. Thrusted into the rotation on Wednesday, Grant played pretty damn well if you ask me. He was solid on the defensive end, and on offense was able to penetrate, score and pass. Not to mention taking advantage of Isaiah Thomas out of the post. He finished in 13 minutes with six points, two boards, three assists and a +10. After tonight, Grant certainly helped himself moving forward in the battle to fill in for MCW.

    92. The troll is well aware that this team looks shockingly bad. He just likes to get attention on the internet.

    93. Jerian Grant proved to me in 1100 rookie minutes last season that he’ll always be completely useless and was an albatross even on his rookie scale contract. Trading him for Derrick Rose, who is a lock to play significantly better than he has in his last 3500 minutes, was a steal.

    94. @108 Holiday is already better than Grant

      Maybe, maybe not. Grant shot 42% from 3 in the preseason and 47% overall FG%. Chicago already picked up his 3rd year option. That’s the critical part: If Holiday plays well, we still have to re-sign him …hmmm…..like Lance. If Grant plays well or even just kinda well, we’d have him cheap for a couple of years and then he’d be a RFA at which time we’d have a better read of his ability.

    95. @110 Holiday is a revelation. If you combined Jerian with Jerami they still aren’t better than Justin.

    96. Justin’s got a TS% lower than Jerian did last season, and Jerian couldn’t shoot for shit. Justin’s ws/48 is in the negatives. You have to be realistic.

    97. Holiday hasn’t been good lol

      Just because he gives the appearance of trying on defense and plays mediocre d as opposed to absolutely horrid d doesn’t mean he’s making up for the total lack of production in other areas

    98. While true, I honestly do sort of give him credit for at least looking like he’s trying hard.

    99. It’s weird, we have all these guys who have played so good, yet we’re 30th in SRS.

      Duh, the statistics are rigged, right Reub?

    100. I’m actually fairly confident Grant will be a better pro than Justin Holiday who, despite some nice hustle and 4 makes from three, has largely continued to be the fringe NBA player he’s always been

    101. •Sam Dekker went down hard after catching the business end of one of Carmelo Anthony’s roundhouse shot blocks. Later on he was all alone on a breakaway when he tripped over his own feet, fell, and had the ball bounce off his face and out of bounds. He still had a better night than the Knicks.

      This was a funny ass line from Posting and Toasting ha sad but true

    102. Lebron, Wade and Bosh started their first season together at 9 and 8. They then must have rigged the league to go on to win all those championships.

    103. Can’t wait to see what reub is saying when we’re 30-52

    104. The most alarming trends I saw last night were how often the Knicks gave up easy buckets off of breaks and down low. You’d think with Noah and KP that that should not happen much.

      For many years I played in a reasonably competitive rec league, and our team did practice pick and roll D a lot. It tended to fall apart in games, though, b/c just one of our starting guys could never quite get it. He just never had the will to try to fight through screens in real games, and often got lost on switches. All 5 guys on the court need to be on the right page all the time or it just fails.

      I was watching for this and saw a number of guys screw up, but it did seem like KP was out there just flailing around a lot and getting burned or leaving his guy wide open. He’s just trying to do too much. Some if it is lack of intensity, too, and Melo is often the culprit there, esp. when he starts to sulk.

    105. Watched some highlights of last night and it certainly wasn’t pretty. Not willing to pack it in just yet though. I don’t mean to be an apologist, however I think we all acknowledged that we had a brutal start to the year. The Cleveland and Houston losses were probably to be expected. Detroit has been good at home this year so far, so that was probably a 40-60 chance we win that (sans Reggie Jackson probably more 50-50). I get that scheduling a season would be a mammoth task, but I would like to see a change where lottery teams play each other more often in the first month of the season. Would allow for lesser teams to notch a few wins up and gain a bit of confidence, rather than being on the back foot right from the start of the season and playing catch up all year.

      Hornacek has some work to do obviously with the rotations and settling on an offensive scheme. I think it was safe to say that we probably weren’t going to hang with the big dogs this year, so I would probably be more inclined to really be critical if these big losses were happening against lower playoff teams/lottery teams (so probably more critical of the Pistons loss). Still there are some pretty basic things that need to get sorted out ASAP. Can’t say being a Knicks fan isn’t at least interesting (if not infuriating).

    106. Also interesting to read Hornacek’s comments post game about getting KP the ball more, so he is at least saying what we are all thinking.

    107. Remember when Steve Kerr said he was choosing the Warriors over the Knicks because it was closer to his daughter in college? He said that, right?

    108. I think we need more D.Rose.
      The good thing is we are not watching Calderon or Grant to run the point.
      We may be better of doing d.rose ISO or pick and roll every possession. Much better than watching the triangle or Melo pull up.

    109. Remember when Steve Kerr said he was choosing the Warriors over the Knicks because it was closer to his daughter in college? He said that, right?

      Looking back, I really do believe that Jackson thought that he would just show up and people would flock to work with him. And hey, that’s what it did look like at the beginning when Kerr verbally accepted the Knicks’ offer (it’s weird that Kerr doesn’t get more shit for accepting the offer and then backing out of it – that’s not often done in the NBA. Billy Donovan did it, too, but he turned down the Magic to go back to Florida, so people in Florida couldn’t very well give him any shit for it). But then Kerr spurned him and it became evident that players admired Jackson, but it really didn’t seem to play into whether they would want to sign here.

    Comments are closed.