Knicks Morning News (2016.10.30)

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ coach Jeff Hornacek likes veterans’ leadership after loss
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 2:24:17 AM)

    Jeff Hornacek wasn’t happy with the Knicks’ performance in their regular-season opener, but he liked what he heard in the days after it.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose makes Knicks way more interesting
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 2:16:44 AM)

    We will not know for some time how much better the Knicks are — or are not — compared to last season. But we already know this: They are far more interesting, perhaps nowhere more so than at point guard.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks rebound in home opener to defeat Memphis Grizzlies
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 2:14:46 AM)

    The sting of their one-sided opening-night loss lingered for a few days, and the Knicks played Saturday night like a team that just wanted to get it out of their system.

  • [NYPost] Why Kristaps Porzingis could be even better in Year 2
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 10:32:04 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis’ season-opening performance sparked fears of a sophomore slump. In the Knicks’ home opener, the 21-year-old showed it’s far more likely he will take a leap toward joining the league’s elite. After struggling on both ends of the floor in a blowout loss to the Cavaliers on Tuesday, last season’s Rookie of the Year…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose set to make Knicks fans forget these past PGs
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 10:10:42 PM)

    A Knicks’ 18-point lead became 10, became seven, became two against the Grizzlies. So back came three starters, including Derrick Rose with 8:36 left in the home opener. “They were just telling me to attack,” Rose said. “Usually when I attack, the paint is always open with the shooters that we have and someone has…

  • [NYPost] Noah sparkles in home debut as Knicks snag uplifting first win
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 6:28:50 PM)

    Joakim Noah took the microphone before tip-off of the Knicks’ home opener and told the Garden crowd: “It’s a long season. Thanks for the support. Let’s get it.” The Knicks got it. They built an 18-point first-half lead behind Noah’s crisp passing and defense. They held on for dear life in the fourth quarter by…

  • [NYPost] Jeff Hornacek wants to bring the ’90s to the Knicks defense
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 8:58:46 AM)

    Let’s get physical! That’s Jeff Hornacek’s mantra to his Knicks, whose defense was deplorable in the preseason and in Tuesday’s opener in Cleveland. His best years coming in Utah, where he played in two Finals against Phil Jackson’s Bulls, Hornacek has invoked his old coach a few times this preseason. So far, the Knicks defense…

  • [NYTimes] Knicks 111, Grizzlies 104: Knicks Let Lead Slip Against Grizzlies, but Still Hold On
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 3:15:29 AM)

    In a 111-104 win over Memphis, the Knicks turned what appeared to be a triumphant homecoming into a white-knuckle affair as an 18-point lead wasted away.

  • [NYDN] It’s early, but Knicks have avoided crisis mode once already
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 9:05:56 PM)

    Perhaps you already forgot that the Knicks once fired Lenny Wilkens’ top aide, Dick Helm, after the second game of 2004-05 season.

  • [NYDN] Kristaps Porzingis leads way for offense in Knicks’ home opener
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 8:44:32 PM)

    The Knicks never trailed in front of an excited crowd, and went on a game-breaking run midway through the fourth quarter.

  • [NYDN] Joakim Noah already becoming hometown hero at Garden
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 8:43:43 PM)

    For Noah, who was born and raised in Hell’s Kitchen, the Knicks’ win over Memphis was a “dream” come true — three decades in the making.

  • [NYDN] Seraphin admits Knicks career hurt by stress, being out of shape
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 7:10:53 AM)

    Kevin Seraphin’s brief Knicks career got off on the wrong foot because he arrived in camp out of shape, leading to sporadic minutes.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis, Noah lead Knicks past Grizzlies in home opener, 111-104
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 10:27:19 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis had a team-high 21 points and new Knick Joakim Noah had seven assists and 10 rebounds as New York held on to beat Memphis 111-104 Saturday in the Knicks’ home opener.

  • [SNY Knicks] TD’s 3 keys to victories against the Grizzlies
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 3:21:01 PM)

    Tommy Dee’s three keys to victory for the Knicks against the Grizzlies.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks’ new group shouldn’t rush good chemistry
    (Saturday, October 29, 2016 11:35:25 AM)

    A new core for the Knicks will take time to gel.

  • [ESPN] Carmelo Anthony says he has no problem sharing the shots — and the spotlight — in New York
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 2:30:17 AM)

    Carmelo Anthony says he has no problem sharing the shots — and the spotlight — in New York

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    156 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.10.30)”

    1. Breakfast just tastes better the morning after a Knicks victory. Yes there is a lot of work to do, but I see reasons for optimism. I think as the chemistry gets better, so will the play of Lance Thomas. That guy who played the first half of last year would make this team look pretty good.

    2. The KB controversy over the Noah contract was pretty complicated

      Some love Noah and felt the deal is fair for its entire length
      Some love Noah but felt the last year or two are overpays and will clog the cap
      Some felt that he is no longer the player he was and shouldn’t have been signed at alll
      Some felt that he is too injury prone but is still worth the money when healthy
      Some felt that he was good but only signed to justify trading Lopez, in essence calling Rose/Noah a package deal (some love the package, some hate it)
      Some felt that he’s such a positive role model that he has value even if he doesn’t hold up
      Some felt that the new CBA is gonna have an amnesty clause, so he can be cleared off the cam down the road

      At this time, it’s way too soon to draw any conclusions. But so far, he looks healthy enough and certainly is firing up the team and the fan base,

      As to the Rose move, there’s a lot to like with Justin Holiday, but it’s also too early to tell. But right now, the deal is looking fine, and if Noah holds up, the package deal is also looking OK.

      Ond deal that is not looking good so far is Lance. I think Kuz might be the better player.

    3. Other observations:

      Jennings is pretty terrible so far and I don’t see a lot of room for improvement. His only hope is to put him on the floor with a fast unit, say KP, Kuz, Ndour, and Baker. He really sucks in the half-court. I hope Horny has a short leash with him and will give Sasha, Baker and maybe even Randle a shot if Jennings keeps stinking it up.

      O’Quinn is playing better than I expected, but I’m not convinced yet.

      Hernangomez can get quick buckets but he is not ready for the speed of the NBA game.

      Rose is inefficient, but I love the way he attacks both sides of the basket. However, I hate the way that he is either in pass mode or shoot mode and becomes predictable.

    4. One thing that would help Jennings is using KP as his PNR/PNP partner instead of KOQ. He’s going to stay being inefficient, but that will open up better driving lanes for him or create easy kick backs to KP for jumpers.

      Also agree with Z-Man that the game is too fast and physical right now from Willy, but I think it’s good that Hornacek is feeding him minutes here and there to speed up his adjustment period and overall development. I think he’s going to figure it out.

      When Justin Holiday makes some shots, he’s a nice bench piece that can slot in with the starters effectively at times as Hornacek did in the 4th quarter. He needs to show a level of consistency from the field he hasn’t flashed outside of his stint in Chicago at the end of last season though.

      Melo, KP and Lance had some defensive mix-ups in sticking with their perimeter guys. That to my eye has been the main source of our defensive issues. It’s fairly incredible though how much better our overall defense and in particular our PNR defense is when Noah is on the floor. If he’s healthy for around 70 games I think we’ll make the playoffs.

    5. I should mention that Robin Lopez is playing very well for the 2-0 Bulls. Wade is playing like a superstar, might wind up being the most underrated signing of the year if he stays healthy.

      On the other hand, Indy is 1-2, Minny is 0-2 and Orlando is 0-3. So much for coaching changes. (I kid, it’s early!)

    6. I don’t know, yal. Maybe I’m drinking the Kool Aid, but if Rose stays healthy, I’m not sure I would lament it if Phil re-signs him. The effect he has on our offense is damn good. I wasn’t sure if his game would open up the rest of the floor, but last night seems to have proven me wrong. My God he is quick off the dribble! I can’t wait to see how he looks once he gets comfortable with the offense and the team as a whole. Maybe I should calm down because he’s already 28 and we still don’t know if he will be able to adapt his game the same way Spree did when he was a Knick. I can’t wait to see what this team looks like in December. In any case, last night’s game has me at least a little encouraged. If Rose can connect with KP the way Jennings seemingly has, the offense is going to be scary

    7. jennings is doing about the same things as rose is with about the same level of effectiveness….. jennings won’t be shooting 27% for the year though so i’m sure he’ll get better…. rose is the far bigger concern and his .472 ts on 25% usg..

      yes it’s two games… but it is not too far off from his last 110+ games over the last couple of years… at what point do we just accept that this is who he is…. and if that is the rose we are getting then yes… jennings will probably end up being better… i’m already onboard with him starting at this point….

      the noah deal was bad…. there’s no two ways about it… it has a small chance of working out but it doesn’t change the fact the decision itself was bad… he will probably never break 1800 minutes in a given season… and it’ll be a minor miracle if he makes it to year 3 but when he’s healthy and able… he will make an impact… so the deal is going to look tolerable as long as that remains the case….

      it has all the makings of the amare deal where we get a year and a half of where we forget how stupid of a contract it was….

    8. When are the Noah/Rose/Phil haters going to admit that they were wrong and apologize to the real Knick fans here?

    9. The Noah deal will likely be not good if there is no amnesty clause. It could work out if he stays as healthy as he looks now, and he does not have a specific injury that merits the same concern as Amare’s microfracture stuff, but I’d have to agree that it is probably going to be an overpay in years 3-4.

    10. Rose brings a dimension that Jennings doesn’t. I wish he got fouled more, but in terms of breaking down the defense, getting to the basket and finishing off the backboard, there’s no comparison. He’s much physically stronger than Jennings. Jennings also seems very left-hand dominant.

    11. @13 I just watched the highlights from the game as I missed it last night. Rose was getting to the rim at will and with force. This is why I loved the trade for him. I do however agree with the concerns about FTr as well as his shooting percentages. Hopefully that improves. Noah is like a smart middle linebacker or free safety…..its so nice to have him.

    12. Also re Rose….I think his attacking will help against teams with shot blockers. They have the urge to come over and help and those can lead to the Kobe assist lol

    13. Man, I wish we had Jeremy Lin and his 4-16 FG and 4 turnovers (Rose had 0 turnovers last night, btw)

      (I know, it’s one game, but there sure seemed to be a lot of Lin bandwagon jumping after his performance against Indiana)

    14. Look, it’s so early. SA is not going 82-0, and Orlando is not going 0-82. The jury is still way out with this Knicks team. In that sense, so much of the pressure is on Hornacek to build a rotation and a style of play that results in maximum wins for the win-now nature of this team. So far, it’s fair to say that we lost the game we should have lost and won the game we should have won. The next game @ DET is a real test. We probably will be slight underdogs, so a loss would not be a big deal, but a win would look really nice and give cause for optimism. Then a back-to-back at home vs. Houston where we should be a slight favorite…this will test our bench and whether we can defend offensive superstars like Harden. Then a HUGE game in CHI vs. a hot team, slight underdog. Then a home game vs. Utah, slight favorite. If we go 2-2 in this stretch, we’re at .500 and still gelling. if we go 1-3 or 0-4, then Horny will start feeling pressure. If they go 3-1 (I won’t even consider 4-0, it ain’t happening) then the only remaining concern about being a playoff-caliber team will be injury…which will always be the case for us.

    15. Lin has always been inconsistent, which is why he is a better fit off the bench. He’s a good starter for a team like the Nets, with the residue of Linsanity still selling tickets, and his contract is fair market value. He would probably be fine on the Knicks as well in comparison to Rose. But yeah, he’s inconsistent as a mf and a turnover machine.

    16. fwiw, I would WAY rather have signed Lin and let Lance and Jennings go. I think a bench of Lin, Kuz, WHG or O’Quinn, Holiday and Sasha would be very interesting. Jennings is gumming up the works right now, and Lance can’t hit the side of a barn.

    17. There are some people on here who are so stuck on hating the Rose/Noah deal that it doesn’t matter what they actually see happening on the court. I for one, am greatly encouraged by what I saw last night. Noah on both ends of the court is an absolute marvel! His passing, defense and leadership are next level and there is NO use comparing his abilities to Lopez (who I like as a player). Rose is a vast improvement over the corpse of Calderon and Holiday is a better defender and shooter than J. Grant. Some of those drives and finishes by Rose last night were jaw dropping! The fact that the team did not have to rely on Melo forcing up some contested shot when Memphis had closed the gap was a HUGE relief!

      It’s early so I’m not going to make any crazy predictions and injuries could derail any hope for a playoff run but so far, from a talent standpoint alone, the starting 5 is WAY ahead of last year. I do have some concerns over the bench. Baby Oak played well last night, Jennings was way hyped and not good, Willie was meh, Lance sucked and had me yearning for Cheezus to get some burn. Holiday has given me some real hope after the way he finished the preseason and his play last night.

      As I stated in the game thread, it will be nice to see what the team looks like after 20 games.

    18. I loved that around 6 of KP’s 21 points were on transition. It seems like he has to work to get good looks so far in this offense. They totally froze him out in the third quarter.

    19. Noah and Rose have played about like you’d expect them to play. Noah pulls down rebounds, passes well and plays great defense but has not stayed on the court much– only 41 minutes in two games. Rose has not been productive so far and his numbers look eerily similar to his numbers last year– poor efficiency, low assist rate, low free throw rate. He has made a few plays each game that have drawn oohs and aahs from the eye-testers, but so far I’m unimpressed. It’s early of course.

      Noah looks like he’s in good enough physical shape to give the Knicks a good year or two. It’s really a question of how many minutes you get out of him. It’s the back end of that contract that most of the detractors here don’t like.

    20. Was Porzingis missing open shots or was he forcing stuff last night? Knicks are undefeated when I don’t watch so far this season.

    21. Was Porzingis missing open shots or was he forcing stuff last night? Knicks are undefeated when I don’t watch so far this season.

      He shot 7 for 11 so he didn’t miss much. Three of those misses were treys.

    22. I don’t think Rose looks any different on offense than he did last year. Defensively, he has definitely looked better. Way more engaged.

      Brandon Jennings is equivalent of kicking a broken appliance as hard as you can. He should only be used when down by double digits and even slightly negative volatility is your friend. He’s like Nightcrawler. He just randomly appears at different spots on the court scaring the crap out of everyone.

    23. ah, I misread the box score and got Kristaps and Carmelo mixed up. This is what happens when you’re a nerd who doesn’t watch the games.

      Was Melo missing open shots or was he forcing stuff last night?

    24. Melo went on ref tilt early due to some really tough no calls and it seemed to lead to him trying to play like he was 24 again.

    25. I just want to set the record straight really fast:

      If there is an amnesty clause in the CBA, there is no doubt in my mind the Knicks are going to use it on Lance Thomas this summer so we can chase CP3. No doubt whatsoever.

    26. Lose Lance and gain CP3? Sign me up for that right now….

      And regarding Rose, some people on this forum made it seem as if he could never hit a layup again for the remainder of his career! He hasn’t had a enough time with the team yet to really make a call on what he will do over the course of the season but I like what I’ve seen so far.

    27. The Lance Thomas hate is laughable in this thread. Guy started off ice cold last year too and then got it together. I’ll be more concerns if/when we’re 10-15 games in and he still can’t hit a shot.

      And Z-man we couldn’t sign Lin for the money he got unless you didn’t want Lee because we used our EB rights to go over the cap to sign him.

    28. Melo got all wrapped up in some Iso-Melo in the 2nd half, too, that benefited Memphis.

      I really liked Hornacek’s rotations last night. There was some griping about Hernangomez, but I love that H seems to be set on getting him about 10 min. per night. Keep doing it. He made a couple of blunders, but by far the #1 reason that Memphis rallied in the 3rd quarter was Iso-Melo. I’d really like to see Kuz get 10 per night, too, but right now LT and Holiday are in his way.

      Holiday looked very good on both ends. I recall him getting a key bucket at one point when the Knicks were struggling to score. If he keeps that up, the Rose trade might start looking better. Speaking of Rose, not great stats again, but he played more in control and still is trying hard on D. I actually liked his floater and would rather seem him do that than foolishly take on bigs at the rim.

      One nice observation about Jennings is that he does seem to look for KP when he’s on the floor, more than Rose, so far, though he still dribbles around too much.

    29. @33 that’s not the point at all. The point is the Knicks will again use the amnesty clause on the wrong player and end up paying for it down the road.

    30. I don’t think Willy can help this year. His offense would have to be unrealistically good to make up for his defense right now. Hope I’m wrong.

    31. We are set. Willy, Baker and Plumlee will all help us as the season progresses. Our starting 5 is first rate with All Stars at every position who happen to complement each other well too. BJ and Holiday are a dynamic, athletic backcourt off the bench. O’Quinn is working like Dennis Rodman out there! Lance is solid and when his shot starts falling you’ll be praising him again like last year. Kuz is tremendously talented and smart. Throw in Sasha and even NDour and we are ready to make a championship run.

    32. Last year we started out well and played 500 for a lot of the season. There were nights we looked pretty good and right before melo got hurt I thought we might take the next step. Before t the thing is with this year,even though its early, I see a much higher ceiling. The team chemistry isn’t even there yet but there is stuff we’re all ready doing that we NEVER did last year.

    33. @27 He’s like Nightcrawler. He just randomly appears at different spots on the court scaring the crap out of everyone.

      lolllll… Comment of the year, and it’s been a looooooong, loooooooooooong year. Not only funny, also accurate about BJ, who’s a really annoying player to have on your team.

    34. DRose is the best PG on this team since Clyde. Noah the best C since Ewing.

      And some on here were outraged that the Knicks have them now.

    35. I thought that was actually a pretty encouraging game from Rose. He didn’t shoot well but he had the Knicks playing downhill all night against a good defensive team. I can live with 6-13, it’s the 8-20 or 11-25 nights I’d like to see him avoid. He didn’t pound the ball and generally made good decisions. And he looked fine on defense- not great but nowhere near as bad as Calderon. In short he looked like a competent starting point guard.

    36. Noah is a fantastic player and if we had drafted him instead of trading that pick for Eddy Curry the course of Knicks history might have been much different. He’s always been one of my favorite players and I am going to enjoy the hell out of watching him play this year. But there is no question he’s a little old and a little injury prone to feel great about the signing.

      KP looked great last night. He had a brief flurry in the fourth when he hoisted up two ill advised shots and I think had a turnover and foul, but otherwise he was fantastic. Changed so many shots. When he and Noah are out there the defense looks completely different.

      Derrick Rose does not look good out there. Now and again he can beat guys off the dribble but the explosion and the elevation he had in his vintage years clearly isn’t there and it effects everything he does. He doesn’t have a jumper and he shrinks from contact inside. I don’t see how can even be an average player this year with the tools he is working with. As always though looking to be proved wrong.

      He also had a very strange cutaway interview that MSG showed during the game where he basically said that he was forced to shoot and score a lot in Chicago and now that he doesn’t have to do that he is free to play the way he really wants. Usage/efficiency par excellence.

      It was a really nice win though they did their very best to try and throw it away. Should have won by 20.

    37. @massive

      Right the Knicks will amnesty Lance because reasons. I think it’s hilarious people think hes going to be some untradeable albatross.

    38. Derrick Rose looked just fine. I think he outplayed the Memphis PG who has the richest contract in the L. Rose hit several big shots when the Knicks needed it last night. Who cares if the two points don’t come via thunderous dunks? He can still get to the front of the rim at will (and against a good defensive PG), hit the floater and he’s obviously trying to guard on the defensive end. To suggest that he can’t be even average is ridiculous.

    39. I also think Rose’s loss of elevation is overstated. He certainly gets up high enough to dunk. He just doesn’t seem to want to. I don’t think his issues are athletic, I think they are between the ears. There were a couple of times he had guys open on the perimeter but chose to drive in traffic rather than pass. He doesn’t seem to have a great sense of what’s behind him, i.e. plays like he has blinders on. Maybe that will change as he gets more comfortable, but that is where he can increase his assist numbers.

    40. Well Lance has sucked for his entire career outside of the first half of last season. Missing open jumpers isn’t going to warm any hearts around here.

    41. I dunno, Rose’s assist numbers have absolutely cratered since his injury and the early returns this season are not encouraging: he has four assists in 62 minutes. Surely he can do better than that, but I’ll be stunned if he manages much better than a 30 AST% for the season.

      He could probably be very effective as a drive-and-kick type guard, but he is just not into the whole “kick” part.

    42. Wasn’t able to catch the game, but looking at the box score I love the passing from Noah. He really is something when he’s right. Looks like he gave Gasol some fits as well. Rose sucks but we knew that already.

    43. I think it’s easy to discount the import of a marginal decrease in athleticism when someone is still an awesome athlete in the after pictures.

      Remember what Rose could do:
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4rAb0xFMLxU

      His first dunk last year after 71 games:
      http://www.slamonline.com/media/slam-tv/derrick-rose-first-dunk-of-season-video/#Mr8wPuYf7l48eoAb.97

      Plainly there are guys who can be good or great with Rose’s current athleticism, but there isn’t much evidence he’s one of those guys.

    44. Really confused by the negativity surrounding rose today. He was fine yesterday and is clearly an upgrade over Calderon who was barely a functioning player last year. Rose came up big when we needed it. I’m not gonna obsess over his individual assist numbers. The team as a whole shared the ball very well yesterday. If the team has good assist numbers why does it matter if rose isn’t getting high assists? Noah’s passing more than makes up for it. To me the biggest thing rose brings is scoring so that melo doesn’t have to carry the load all game. That’s huge. Between rose, melo, KP and lee we have lots of options on offense.

    45. It’s only two games. Maybe Rose plays better. It’s certainly very possible that he could play a lot better than he has so far.

      That said, he has a .472 TS% and a .450 eFG%. He has 4 assists and 4 turnovers. That’s not “fine” and that’s not productive. That is poor play.

    46. I said yesterday that the Rose vs Conley matchup was key. Rose won that matchup, even though most of the stats are close. Rose was +6, Conley -13. In a few months we might be lamenting his impending free agency.

      I also want to say that the post-Cleveland loss posts had me shaking my head. Typical reactionary fans. I remain cautiously optimistic, but realistic about this season.

    47. I keep seeing so much hate for Lance Thomas and I’m trying to figure out how someone who went 3-5 from the field is getting so much hate for his lack of offense. I could see if had had a lot of turnovers but he didn’t so what exactly is Thomas doing or not doing?

    48. I just did a quick check on NBA.com. Rose is shooting 59% from inside 10′ and about 23% outside 10′. I’d say if you can keep that inside 10′ % in that range he will be pretty effective as you would expect the other number to rise to high 30’s at least. So I think the early indications are that he is playing better close to the rim than last year and that could be a good sign.

    49. I think people are worried that all our euros will start calling him pants thomas and he won’t know why and they won’t know why and he will eventually throw a punch and there goes kuz.

    50. i liked Rose…and Noah yesterday.
      Their stats are not Westbrook or ADavis ones but if you watched the game closely you could feel that they upgraded the Knicks in speed, toughness and energy.They give us more dimensions.
      I didn’t like Hornacek’s rotation w/o one of Melo or KP on the floor and i also didn’t like our paintD while KP and Noah were both out.I felt ashamed that guys i had never heard before were having a party in our paint.
      64.1% on the FT is also trash.
      We’re Good.
      We Can be FAAAAAAAR BETTER.

    51. Do you think Rose’s VORP will stay at 0 all season? He is a max-contract replacement player. Love it. Long season ahead, boys.

      (Porzingis rules.)

    52. I’m extremely critical of my guy KP. He’s my favorite player in the NBA and I need him to rebound better. With Kyrie in Cleveland and the young guys in Philly he’s going to have issues dominating the East if he doesn’t get better on the glass.

      Keep scoring like that, though. We need it with Rose on the team

    53. I think that we need to give the Knicks 10 games, an 1/8 of the season, to see what they really are.

    54. That said, he has a .472 TS% and a .450 eFG%. He has 4 assists and 4 turnovers. That’s not “fine” and that’s not productive. That is poor play.

      You have stats here for 2 games man. 2!

    55. Rose might get better. If he doesn’t we’re going nowhere. But it’s absolutely indisputable that he has sucked so far, and that’s what was being pointed out since, remarkably, there are people who refuse to acknowledge it.

    56. Listening to the music is not exactly like reading its partiture.
      …unless you’re Beethoven

    57. 13 pts
      4 rebounds
      3 assists
      2 steals
      1 block
      0 turnovers
      6/13 fg

      This apparently sucking now. Has your man Calderon put up a line like this in the last 4 years?

    58. Rose might get better. If he doesn’t we’re going nowhere. But it’s absolutely indisputable that he has sucked so far, and that’s what was being pointed out since, remarkably, there are people who refuse to acknowledge it.

      It’s very disputable no matter how much you want to act like all of your opinions are facts.

    59. It’s very disputable no matter how much you want to act like all of your opinions are facts.

      Are we talking about the same player? The dude with the .472 TS%? The dude with the negative WS48? The point guard with the 12% AST%? Yes it’s a tiny sample size, I’m not saying he’s doomed. But his sucktitude in the first two games is literally an objective truth.

      This apparently sucking now. Has your man Calderon put up a line like this in the last 4 years?

      His BRef game score was 11.5. Calderon topped that 18 times last year and it seems like a stat that rewards Rose’s game a lot more than Calderon’s.

    60. I swear to jezuz that if we’re at midseason and people are saying, “Rose is having an off-year because he missed preseason!” I am going to burn this blog to the ground.

    61. You have stats here for 2 games man. 2!

      That’s why I said, in that very same post, and I quote: “It’s only two games.” How about turning the whining down to like, a 2?

    62. Are we talking about the same player? The dude with the .472 TS%? The dude with the negative WS48? The point guard with the 12% AST%? Yes it’s a tiny sample size, I’m not saying he’s doomed. But his sucktitude in the first two games is literally an objective truth.

      We’re talking about 2 games, 1 in which he was not very good against Cleveland and one against Memphis in which he was fine. Why do I care if he didn’t rack up assists last night? Noah was and if anything the fact that he was happy to let Noah and Melo handle the rock, play off of others and wasn’t pounding possessions into oblivion is a positive. He also keyed the offensive run at the end of the game along with Noah that sealed the victory for us.

      I don’t think he’s been awesome, but he was fine last night. He was comfortable with other guys getting shots up and let the offense flow. I could care less if he himself didn’t have 8 assists.

    63. Lance deserves a short leash because we gave him a four year contract for half a season of good three point shooting and mediocre defense. And he wasn’t all that good when he was at his best

      He’s a total non impact player if he’s not hitting threes and he’s not a particularly great defender

    64. This apparently sucking now. Has your man Calderon put up a line like this in the last 4 years?

      Average PG per 40:
      21 PTS
      5.5 REB
      8.4 AST
      1.9 STL
      3.6 TOV
      .529% TS%

      Rose yesterday:
      14.2 PTS
      4.9 REB
      3.7 AST
      2,4 STL
      0.0 TOV
      .468% TS%

      That’s not great or fine. That’s barely average.

      The fact that Calderon sucked last year has nothing to do with Rose sucking this year.

      Calderon numbers BTW:
      12.9 PTS
      5.4 REB
      7.1 AST
      1.5 STL
      2.1 TOV
      57,1% TS%

    65. Man, my hopes for Rose is he’s a functional starting point guard. If he does more than that, great. If he has a bunch of low usage outings like yesterday where Noah and Melo are getting a ton of offense run through them, the offense looks fine and he’s generally only looking to attack when required I’ll be fine with that.

      Either way there’s a lot of overreaction to 2 games. All I can say with certainty at this point is that healthy Noah is a tangible difference maker in the win column.

    66. That’s why I said, in that very same post, and I quote: “It’s only two games.” How about turning the whining down to like, a 2?

      Look who is talking. You are the one whining about a player who played a perfectly serviceable game.

      Your quote it’s only 2 games line is like saying no disrespect then going on to disrespect someone.

    67. Average PG per 40:

      Lol.

      “That’s not great or fine. That’s barely average.”

      That’s my point…whether it’s “barely” or not. It’s average, not sucking.

    68. Lol.

      What’s the problem buddy?

      You are compating Rose to another PG and I can’t compare him with all the rest of the league?

      Double standard?

    69. Idk what you are talking about. I lol’d at avg per 40. Who the hell uses that stat?

      And I think Rose will have avg PG numbers this year

    70. Look who is talking. You are the one whining about a player who played a perfectly serviceable game.

      EXCEPT THAT I QUALIFIED IT BY SAYING IT’S ONLY TWO FUCKING GAMES.

    71. I just gotta start ignoring some people. That’s the only way this blog is going to be enjoyable going forward. First up: er and reub

    72. Yesterday Rose had 13 points on 13 shots and 3 assists in 32 minutes. There is simply no way to spin that as anything but a decidedly below average game. It’s the kind of (non)production you can find on the waiver wire without trading Robin Lopez and Jerian Grant. Save that mentioning-his-points-without-referencing-efficiency nonsense for r/nyknicks. If he plays like that for the of the season (which, again, I am not saying will happen) we are not going to be good.

    73. the soft bigotry of low expectations

      I can’t speak for anyone else, but my expectation is “league average NBA starting point guard.”

    74. I can’t wait for us to rack up wins this season so that all the negative people on this blog have to hang their hat on is Rose’s poor advanced stats.

      Do you fans even watch the game? Rose was one of the key reasons why we won. When Memphis was putting pressure on us and coming back in the 3rd quarter, Rose scored 11 points to keep us ahead. He also played some good defense and got timely free throws at the end.

      You haters are in for a long season. Go to the warriors blog.

    75. I don’t get why folks are saying Rose is playing horribly in 2 games after pretty much missing all preseason. I think he was a damn good ball player last night who added a much needed dimension to the offense. Even if he’s not racking up assists, I will happily take that D Rose. That D Rose will be really really good once the team jells and he gets comfortable with the offense. I would like to see him pass more though.

    76. Ha! My point is that it’s way too early to judge Rose after missing the preseason. I’m not expecting greatness from him, but I don’t think he will suck either. Once he gets used to the offense, we will all be happy that we have him over Grant & Calderon. Our PG position was damn near an albatross last season. Rose & Jennings can’t be worse…those guys have too much talent

    77. Jeff Teague TS% – .295

      I conclude after 3 games that this guy really sux and should be sent to the D league pronto.

    78. I conclude after 3 games that this guy really sux and should be sent to the D league pronto.

      Definitely not, but are you going to try to argue that he’s actually been good?

    79. I conclude after 3 games that this guy really sux and should be sent to the D league pronto.

      Show that straw man who’s boss!

    80. Definitely not, but are you going to try to argue that he’s actually been good?

      No, he’s been awful, but I’m sure as hell not going to evaluate him after 3 freakin’ games (or in the case of Rose, 2 games)

    81. His BRef game score was 11.5. Calderon topped that 18 times last year and it seems like a stat that rewards Rose’s game a lot more than Calderon’s.

      Wow, do you people with Derrick Rose Derangement Syndrome even listen to yourselves!

      Last night, our starting PG outplayed his counterpart, who just received the richest contract in NBA history, and the Knicks won. Even though it’s only his second game with 11 new teammates and a new coach and he missed most of pre-season, he still put up numbers (by your metric) that are better than 78% of the games we got from last year’s starting PG.

      Please, all of you keep on citing his TS and WS for the season like it hasn’t been TWO GAMES. You are embarrassments to a board that supposedly values serious statistical analysis. Carmelo is posting a sub .500 TS and negative WS/48. I guess we should all expect that to continue too because he’s so terrible, wah wah wah.

    82. If there’s one position where advanced stats don’t tell the entire story it’s point guard. Jennings’ numbers looked better than Rose’s last night but he was awful- there were multiple possessions where he completely stopped the offense and just pounded the ball way out behind the three point line. Rose pushed and was able to get the defense back on it’s heels with penetration. That as much as anything led to the good ball movement that wound up producing 111 points against a good defensive team (albeit one missing it’s best defensive backcourt player) without the team putting up great 3 point shooting numbers. He stunk against Cleveland, he was okay last night- at least he didn’t look like a guy who’ll doom the entire offense. That’s a low bar admittedly but when there’s been talk on this blog that the only way the Knicks will have any success is if he gets injured…

    83. I think we can just resign ourselves to the fact that regardless of how Rose plays this year there are going to be some pretty polarising views on him. You know…duality of man and all that jazz.

      It was a nice game last night. Was good to see a pretty even contribution. We got off to a nice start, and then Memphis did what Memphis does and ground out the rest of the game to make it a contest.

      I thought everyone was pretty serviceable. Rose had a nice game, Lee bounced back, Melo did what he is likely to do all season. Nice cameo from KOQ as well. I don’t know what this team will do this year, but it’s certainly going to be intriguing either way.

    84. Brandon Jennings is…like Nightcrawler. He just randomly appears at different spots on the court scaring the crap out of everyone.

      Freaking hilarious.

      I was happy about the signing, But he has not been good – whereas Rose vs Memphis was fine. I’ll take that all year long without complaint.

    85. Please, all of you keep on citing his TS and WS for the season like it hasn’t been TWO GAMES.

      Uhhhh, yeah, that’s why I have repeatedly made the caveat that it has only been two games. But that is not enough apparently. I have to concede that he has actually played well despite all the contrary evidence.

      I’m not even going to mention the dude’s name again until game 20. This shit has just gotten too stupid.

    86. I also admit I was thinking we should keep Randle over Holiday, but that may have been wrong..

    87. I will guarantee you the very same people who are saying “come on dude, it’s only been two games” will be trumpeting their vindication from the mountaintops the first time Rose goes like 6-10 with 7 assists or something.

    88. I think 20 games is the cutoff date date. After that if he has TS% of .479 I will admit I’m wrong.

    89. I’m not even going to mention the dude’s name again until game 20. This shit has just gotten too stupid.

      That sounds like a great idea, please follow through! That would be sooooo much better than “(okay so it’s been two games but) LOOK AT HOW AWFUL DERRICK ROSE’S TS + WS/48 ARE SEE LOOK OMG SO BAD HE SUX JUST LIKE WE SAID.”

      As I said, embarrassing.

      I will guarantee you the very same people who are saying “come on dude, it’s only been two games” will be trumpeting their vindication from the mountaintops the first time Rose goes like 6-10 with 7 assists or something.

      Damn right, if games like that become routine I will be rubbing it in the faces of the wet blankets who insisted the only shot the Knicks had to be good this season is if Rose missed major amounts of time due to injury. We hung 111 points on a good defensive team in the 2nd game this roster has played together. They’re not even remotely close to scratching the surface of their potential yet the glass-half-empty crowd has to abuse any stat available to reinforce their belief that Rose is the worst. Sad!

    90. I mean we already turned on Jennings and Bargnani real quick.
      If Rose is impeeding the team then we’ll call him out on it.

    91. Do you fans even watch the game? Rose was one of the key reasons why we won. When Memphis was putting pressure on us and coming back in the 3rd quarter, Rose scored 11 points to keep us ahead. He also played some good defense and got timely free throws at the end.

      I was at the game yesterday and could not agree with this more. I expected Rose to suck and he absolutely was a key reason we won the game. Seriously, before assuming that a TS% for one game tells the whole story, try watching the game.

    92. (okay so it’s been two games but) LOOK AT HOW AWFUL DERRICK ROSE’S TS + WS/48 ARE SEE LOOK OMG SO BAD HE SUX JUST LIKE WE SAID.”

      What a bunch of straw man bullshit.

      Somebody (I forget who) made the point that Rose played well in the second game. And I made the point that it’s only been two games, but Rose’s numbers– including the one from his “good” game– look a lot like his numbers from 2015-2016, and that he hasn’t been productive so far.

      And then some people started crying.

    93. Nightcrawler is super strong. I think that’s going to stick.

      Although is it an obvious enough dig?

    94. Wow. I’m on record as not liking Rose as a person or player, but I thought he was okay last night. His stats weren’t good, but the team won and scored 111 points with him at the helm. He played under control and did hit a few key buckets.

      I also think that he and Jennings played pretty solid D last night. Anybody else remember the Jose Calderon Memorial Turnstile that the Knicks had on D last year?

    95. I didn’t watch the knicks game, actually i don’t like basketball at all but according to my algorithmic stats: 5-2/65%xVORP-TRS>1+2+200%xNBA=
      Rose played awful, Luke Walton is the best [uncredited] coach of all times per36seasons and Boban M is actually a dinosaur.

    96. I love the idea that points are more valuable when the other team is also scoring points.

      “They was on a comeback, but then Derrick Rose stopped missing shots and started making them and therefore the game was valuable from the perspective of whether Derrick Rose is good at basketball and playing it.”

      No. Fucking no. It’s 2016. We should not be having this conversation about professional basketball in 2016 on this board.

    97. Winning aside, arguing that Rose’s play is accurately described by his stats is a little like chewing cud from his detractors. He has played two games that matter for this team. In those two games he has been good and bad. In one of those two games (his first since returning from a civil trial that separated him from his teammates for two weeks) he was awful. In his second he was average on the books, and potentially important to the overall win. Those two things usually don’t go together. Hopefully his play improves as he learns how to play with mythical beasts. Maybe wait at least three games before saying “see, the guy is trash.”

      Jennings…

    98. Lol we’re talking about a guy attacking the paint and breaking down the defense. Rose nearly tripled Calderon/Afflalos drives to the rim COMBINED last year.

      Do you not believe that contributed to the offense that scored 111 points last night?

    99. Lol we’re talking about a guy attacking the paint and breaking down the defense. Rose nearly tripled Calderon/Afflalos drives to the rim COMBINED last year.

      So he got lots of assists on those drives to the rim, right?

      You know what, nevermind. Not talking about you-know-who until 20 games in.

    100. So he got lots of assists on those drives to the rim, right?

      Again you don’t need to rack up assist off a drive for it to help out your team.

      If Rose drive, draw help, kick it out to Melo who now has a mismatch after the defense scramble to rotate and he scores the initial penetration isn’t credited with anything but was a factor in scoring on the possession.

      Some people think he was good last night and helped our offense flow. Others think he sucked and that we scored 111 on good efficiency in spite of him. We really need a larger sample to say anything definitive about Derrick Rose’s impact on the 2016-17 Knicks.

    101. So he got lots of assists on those drives to the rim, right?

      You know what, nevermind. Not talking about you-know-who until 20 games in.

      Please, do us all a favor then and actually don’t talk about Rose. Criticizing and then saying “oh wait jk I’m not talking about him” is no less disingenuous than providing the small sample size caveat and then immediately citing the irrelevant stats that you know full well prove absolutely nothing because they were collected over two games. Just like a lawyer who says legally inadmissible stuff in front of a jury because even if it’s stricken from the official record, they can’t un-hear it.

      Or don’t, and keep on bending over backwards to criticize someone who was playing the functional equivalent of his third preseason game. It’s particularly effective when you harp on him not getting enough assists as if anyone believes that’s the only measure of good team offense and ball movement, and not, I don’t know, spearheading an effort that resulted in a 111 points and a win against a good, defensive-oriented Western Conference stalwart.

    102. This is really some serious bs on the Rose front. As an actual Knick fan, I’m happy when the team wins. I also find it hard to criticize players that contribute to that win. I watched every minute of last nights game and Rose was critical to the win. He played defense! It was such a relief to watch a Knick game where the opposing point guard is not absolutely TORCHING our point guard. Rose clearly has sufficient athleticism left in those old bones of his to be decent defender. He made some good plays on the break last night and seemed to be able to get to rim at will! What I also liked is that he didn’t try to force his offense and picked his spots. His offense was certainly critical to the win last night!

      I also liked what I saw from Holiday.

      Noah, Noah, Noah. Gotta love how this guy plays!!!! Please stay healthy Mr. Noah. We Knick fans deserve a break ..or two.

    103. I hate the Derrick Rose trade just for the fact that it’s inspired this interminable jousting over his value as a player.

      He was bad in one game and mediocre in another. He’s earning 20m dollars, and you can get the things we wanted him for (breaking down the defense and then refusing to pass and finishing poorly at the rim) for 1/20th the price at the same tier of productivity.

      Even if he’s on a new team playing his third game, the most likely hypothesis still is that he’s the player his last 3500 minutes have indicated that he is (terrible, and over reliant on now diminished athletic ability reflected in his total inability to dunk and draw fouls.)

      Extrapolating off of the most two recent games isn’t a fruitful enterprise, but his game in these prior two games is pretty much the same Derrick Rose you’ve seen for the last three years–one on a bad day, and one on a “good” day. There’s likely going to be more bad than “good.” Everyone should keep holding their breath until he does something notably good or until we all realize that he’s absolutely terrible around game 25 or so just like many of us had to do with Bargs

    104. You talking about no trade clause, volume scoring, inefficient, no defense, me first, Melo? Let’s discuss!

    105. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year: He’s earning 20m dollars, and you can get the things we wanted him for (breaking down the defense and then refusing to pass and finishing poorly at the rim) for 1/20th the price at the same tier of productivity.

      yes, exactly. If your car is missing a tire, and you replace it with a shitty one that’s all patched up but pay full price for it, it was a dumb choice. So if the Knicks were so desperate for dribble penetration, there were a million and one better ways to get it than to take on $20m of salary and trade away two pieces with trade value.

    106. yes, exactly. If your car is missing a tire, and you replace it with a shitty one that’s all patched up but pay full price for it, it was a dumb choice. So if the Knicks were so desperate for dribble penetration, there were a million and one better ways to get it than to take on $20m of salary and trade away two pieces with trade value.

      What the fuck does this have to do with Derrick Rose’s performance on the court this season? The trade to get Derrick Rose literally has jack shit to do with how his play improves or destroys the Knicks when he’s on the floor this season.

      Also at some point the addition of Holiday in the deal should actually be part of the consideration in evaluating the trade as should the 2017 second round pick they received, since many can’t stop crying about how Phil Jackson gave up on the asset that was Jerian Grant and his amazing potential. Either way whether you think the move sucked ass or was a lateral move, it shouldn’t factor in one iota into judging Rose’s performance this season on the Knicks.

    107. So, Jose Calderon averaged 2.2 drives per game, which was the worst number for any point guard in the league who averaged at least 20 minutes per game.

      But the really bad part?

      Those drives only resulted in .28 points per drive, the worst mark in the league for qualified players.

      http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVE_PTS_PCT&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

      Melo, Lopez and Derrick Williams were the Knicks leaders at between .89-92 points per drive, which is in the top 15-20 percent in the league.

      Rose was 15th in the entire league in drives per game last season, well ahead of Chris Paul and Steph Curry, for example.

      He shot 51% on drives last year (converting at a higher rate than James Harden, Kyrie Irving, Lillard, for example) which is well above league average.

      HE had a TS % of .552 on drives last season, which is also above league average, better than board favorite and flopper Danillo Gallinari, btw. (Melo had a TS% of .597 on drives, fwiw, and was also one of the league’s most efficient passers on drives)

      http://www.todaysfastbreak.com/from-the-courts/intro-advanced-stats-drives/

    108. The eye test folks are absolutely correct. Jose Calderon was one of the worst penetrators in the league last year (and definitely the worst for a starting point guard) and the vast majority of his assists were not generated from his penetration.

      Also, since Calderon did not record a single-post up last season, we can also acknowledge that not one of his assists was generated from a double team.

      Should there be more value given to a penetration-based assist or a defense-occupying assist?

      Perhaps Calderon got some assists from teams sending their rotation to him as opposed to a teammate because of his prolific shooting, and that certainly has value. He also got some from pass-aheads in transition and movement elsewhere in the offense.

      Can the Berri people at least acknowledge that penetration is the primary way of creating scoring opportunities, and that point guards are responsible for most of the penetration?

    109. Phil Jackson gave up on the asset that was Jerian Grant and his amazing potential

      Has anyone said anything remotely similar to this? “Amazing potential?” Trading Grant was fine in a vacuum. Trading him for a player who sucks was stupid, because it’s stupid to trade for players who suck.

      Either way whether you think the move sucked ass or was a lateral move, it shouldn’t factor in one iota into judging Rose’s performance this season on the Knicks.

      It shouldn’t factor into judgment of his performance, but it should factor into whether or not said performance justifies the move to acquire him. I’ve defended Jennings to some extent, because there was effectively no opportunity cost to acquiring him. The same isn’t true for Rose.

      Can the Berri people at least acknowledge that penetration is the primary way of creating scoring opportunities, and that point guards are responsible for most of the penetration?

      Since you started by talking about Rose’s penetration, do you have evidence that he creates more scoring opportunities than his numbers indicate? Because last year the Bulls were better offensively with him off the floor despite his backups also sucking.

    110. Also this Max Hooper dude took 490 FGAs during his 4 year college career and exactly 11 of them weren’t threes. His senior year he took 257 and zero of them weren’t threes. That’s crazy. 70% TS his senior year. Huh.

    111. Calderon and Rose had the same number of assists last year and Rose turned it over twice as often while shooting far worse and much more often. I don’t give a fuck how many times he drove to the hoop, he was worse than Jose last year. Jose wiped the floor with rose any way you want to measure it, including Ruru’s precious stat du jour, BPM. Penetration is a means to an end.

    112. Correct, penetration is a means to creating an opportunity for a shot. Standing and dribbling above the 3-pt line and then getting assists out of ball rotation, or off teammates movement, neither of those things create the opportunity for a shot, they are the second to last result of some other action which created the opportunity for a shot, it just so happens that a player like Calderon gets the credit for them because of his positioning in the offense.

      Calderon is a wonderful spot-up shooter who also makes the right play with the ball in his hands, but he failed to serve the primary function of a point-guard. He is surely beneficial to an offense, but his weaknesses aren’t accounted for in the box score, whereas all of Rose’s are, and some of his strengths aren’t (secondary assists created by penetration, for example, in which Rose has always created at high rate).

    113. Bro, do you have evidence that Rose creates a significant amount of opportunities that aren’t detected by the box score or not?

    114. Its also complete BS to think that every time rose drives to the paint he has to kick it out for an assist or else he’s being worthless. If the shot is there you take it. If you draw the foul even if you miss a free throw it has value be getting the opposing team into foul trouble is a good thing. And yes, jowles, when you score matters. If you don’t think momentum and being able to stop it or swing it back in your teams favor is important than it’s clear to me that you really are someone who never watched the game.

    115. Can the Berri people at least acknowledge that penetration is the primary way of creating scoring opportunities, and that point guards are responsible for most of the penetration?

      Well, I’m not a “Berri person” but sure, I’ll give you that. Let’s say penetration has “x” value.

      Why was the Bulls offense bad last year (they ranked 23rd) despite getting such excellent “x” value from Derrick Rose? They had some talented offensive players on the roster: Jimmy Butler, Taj Gibson, Doug McDermott, Nikola Mirotic, Pau Gasol, E’Twaun Moore. Those guys can all score and they all played 1200+ minutes. Looking at their offense in terms of the Four Factors, the Bulls were average in turnover percentage and offensive rebounding, but were 26th in eFG% and 26th in FT/FGA. Derrick Rose was a large part of the problem: he was first in the team in FGA and USG%, but only 10th in free throw rate and 13th in eFG%. So right off the bat he puts them in a big hole in those categories.

      How much does that “x” value for his penetration offset that? It would have to offset it by an awful lot for it to have been worth the devastation Rose caused to the team eFG% and FT/FGA. You would have to assign a truly tremendous amount of value to either Rose’s penetration to make up for his box score shortcomings. They were the #23 offense, even though they had decent offensive players. How much value could that penetration possibly have had?

    116. Jeff Hornacek needs to give Ron Baker more minutes so everybody can stop talking about Derrick Rose.

    117. Well, I’m not a “Berri person” but

      So are you going to shut up about Derrick Rose or not?

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