Knicks Morning News (2016.10.13)

  • [NYDN] Knicks coach to ‘stall’ installation of offense ’til Rose returns
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 8:47:54 PM)

    For the last week and for an indefinite period moving forward, the Knicks have tried to teach an offense without their point guard.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo Anthony upset over Slam Magazine ranking
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 3:36:23 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony’s elite superstar standing has taken a little bit of a hit in the last few years

  • [NYDN] LAPD cop on Derrick Rose rape case found shot to death
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 1:22:57 PM)

    The Los Angeles detective investigating rape allegations against Rose has been found dead of a single gunshot wound.

  • [NYDN] Judge refuses Derrick Rose’s lawyer’s motion to dismiss rape suit
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 12:43:38 PM)

    A Los Angeles federal judge has denied a request to bounce the $21.5 million civil suit accusing Knicks guard Derrick Rose of rape.

  • [NYTimes] Dismissal Denied, Derrick Rose’s Civil Rape Trial Continues
    (Thursday, October 13, 2016 2:34:09 AM)

    Two co-defendants concurred with Rose’s contention that the sex they had with the plaintiff in 2013 was consensual and that the woman was sober.

  • [NYTimes] Anthony Davis’ Status for Pelicans Opener Up in the Air
    (Thursday, October 13, 2016 2:06:39 AM)

    Anthony Davis was flat on his back, grabbing his right ankle and wincing in pain. And now the New Orleans Pelicans can only wonder if their best player will be ready for opening night.

  • [NYTimes] Rockets Sweep Pelicans in China Games With 116-104 Win
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 2:28:21 PM)

    James Harden is quickly getting comfortable running his new coach’s offense.

  • [NYTimes] Silver: Discussions on NBA Labor Agreement Resume Next Week
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 1:09:38 PM)

    NBA Commissioner Adam Silver said discussions will resume on the collective bargaining agreement next week after he returns from China, with two months left before a key deadline.

  • [NYPost] ‘Caged animal’: Knicks’ Joakim Noah practicing again
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:35:22 PM)

    Joakim Noah is a self-admitted pacifist when it comes to war, but one of the NBA’s most unpeaceful players on the court. “He’s like a caged animal out there,’’ Carmelo Anthony said. “Loud. It’s a different game out there with him. His energy and excitement being back on the court lifted everyone up. That’s what…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo shames mag’s top-50 NBA list: You ranked me where?!
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 5:58:52 PM)

    When your player ranking almost matches your team’s 2014-15 win total (17, that is, at the Knicks’ worst)? Most NBA players might be happy with that. Not Knicks star Carmelo Anthony, who lashed out at SLAM Magazine Wednesday for listing him at No. 15 on their NBA Top 50 rankings. “@slamonline lost all credibility in…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose’s rape accuser ‘asked for ecstasy:’ testimony
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 3:58:06 PM)

    LOS ANGELES — The woman who’s accused Knicks star Derrick Rose and his pals of drugging and raping her in 2013 came ready to party that day – looking to score booze and drugs and offering men pool-side lap dances, according to testimony Wednesday. Rose’s childhood pal Randall Hampton returned to the witness stand in…

  • [NYPost] Hornacek ‘stalling’ offense and defense until Rose trial ends
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 2:49:02 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek said new point guard Derrick Rose won’t return to the Knicks until his civil rape trial is over, and he’s trying to hold back on some teachings until that time. Rose’s trial is not expected to end until next week after a federal judge ruled Wednesday against a mistrial due to Rose’s accuser…

  • [NYPost] Sources back Derrick Rose: NBA teaches condom disposal
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 12:14:14 PM)

    Two NBA sources confirmed Derrick Rose’s testimony in federal court during his civil rape trial that the league, in its rookie transitional program, teaches players “safe disposal of condoms’’ to avoid the potential of a woman impregnating herself. A league source said “sexual health’’ is part of the four-day set of lectures, and the condom…

  • [NYPost] Death of lead detective in Derrick Rose case rocks courtroom
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 11:57:23 AM)

    A Los Angeles courtroom was rocked Wednesday by news that the lead detective in the criminal investigation into rape claims against New York Knicks guard Derrick Rose died of an apparently self-inflicted gunshot. Rose’s accuser looked to be in shock as she turned to her attorney, who shook his head in disbelief, as LAPD Det….

  • [ESPN] Thursday’s Knicks News: Carmelo Anthony on Joakim Noah: ‘He’s like a caged animal out there’
    (Thursday, October 13, 2016 5:55:26 AM)

    Thursday’s Knicks News: Carmelo Anthony on Joakim Noah: ‘He’s like a caged animal out there’

  • [ESPN] LAPD: Detective’s death won’t affect Rose case
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:23:07 PM)

    LAPD: Detective’s death won’t affect Rose case

  • [ESPN] Judge declines to declare mistrial in Rose case
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 12:11:06 PM)

    Judge declines to declare mistrial in Rose case

  • [ESPN] NBA Rumor Central: Kyle O’Quinn battling two rookies for Knicks’ main backup center spot
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:55:05 AM)

    NBA Rumor Central: Kyle O’Quinn battling two rookies for Knicks’ main backup center spot

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks delaying drills while awaiting Derrick Rose’s return
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 7:23:56 PM)

    How do you teach a new offense to a new team when their new point guard is 3,000 miles away?

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose rape case detective’s death investigated as suicide
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 7:09:00 PM)

    The death of a Los Angeles police detective found shot at a suburban home was being investigated as a suicide, authorities said Wednesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Noah expects to return on Saturday
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 11:57:45 PM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose will not return to Knicks until trial ends
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 4:48:50 PM)

    Knicks guard Derrick Rose won’t be returning to the team until his civil trial in Los Angeles is over, Jeff Hornacek told reporters Wednesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Judge in Rose case refuses to declare mistrial
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 1:00:16 PM)

    Lawyers for a woman accusing NBA star Derrick Rose and two of his friends of rape failed to disclose text messages to the defense, but the lapse was not significant enough to throw out the case or declare a mistrial, a judge ruled Wednesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Guards take charge on offense, Noah looks to do same with defense
    (Wednesday, October 12, 2016 8:23:49 AM)

    Without Derrick Rose, both Brandon Jennings and Chasson Randle have done a great job of running the Knicks’ offense and opening things up for teammates in different ways. Rose’s arrival will undoubtedly provide a welcomed boost, but in the interim, there’s been plenty of flow on offense. The team hasn’t missed a beat.

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    74 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.10.13)”

    1. Has anybody been watching the post game shows on MSG? Alan Hahn always brings up that the Knicks are hoping Hernangomez can develop into a player comparable to Marc Gasol. I don’t think he’ll ever be Gasol defensively, but he does project to be a better rebounder and possibly a more efficient scorer than Gasol. Personally, I’m really high on Hernangomez; he needs to be a better rebounder and cut down on the turnovers, but all signs point to Hernangomez’s readiness to play an important role for the Knicks. If Billy Buckets is the real deal, the Knicks should have one of the best contracts in the NBA.

      I’m not too high on Kuzminskas although he does seem to have a good feel for the game. He’s not as good as Derrick Williams but he’s certainly a player that can bump Kyle out of the rotation if he doesn’t learn to move the ball. I’m interested to see how the bench develops this season. Its very likely the second unit starts off as Jennings, Vujacic, LT, Hernangomez, and KOQ, but there is room for guys like Holiday and Kuz to earn minutes if one or two guys start to slump.

    2. Agreed on Hernangomez. The Knicks have very nice, inexpensive contracts for up to 4 years with both him and Plumlee. Should either or both pan out as decent rotation players, he/they will be great bargains.

      Another thing about H is if he can develop a decent mid-range shot. IIRC, he’s missed all of those that he’s taken so far (3, I think it has been). If he can become a decent shooter out to about 15 feet, he’ll be a very good offensive center.

      We’ve just not seen enough of Kuz to get a good feel.

      I think Holiday will start out in the rotation. Apparently they very much like his defense, but he’ll need to shoot better to stick, I’d think.

    3. wily is not going to be like marc gasol…. just doesn’t have the wingspan or the defensive instincts to ever get there…

      he is basically luis scola…. ground bound but clever enough around the basket to finish at a high rate …. might eventually develop a mid range game…. decent on the boards but limited defensively…

    4. I would agree on Scola vs Gasol. The only reason he’s being compared to Gasol is because they are both Spaniards. It’s like comparing larry bird to john mellencamp.

      Gasol is probably one of the best passing big men of the last 20 years

    5. I think his ceiling is a more efficient Vucevic. An offensive big best suited to come off the bench, but one you can run offense through and can be deployed in multiple ways.

      In all likelihood he comes up short of that, but I think at worst he’ll be a useful role player. He’s already flashed some nice passing skills both from the post and on the move in PNR, which can be a really useful talent for a big man.

    6. Sign me up for Willy becoming a Scola or Vucevic, that would be awesome. Not the greatest players ever, but solid and smart.

    7. Who really thought Marc Gasol would become into the player he is. If I remember correctly people doubted his ability to defend the one because of his lack of athleticism. Also, Willy(momma spelled it Willy, ima spell it Willy) has a 7’2 wingspan and a 9’1 standing reach which isn’t bad so the length is there he just has to improve on his fundamentals.

    8. @ 7 – Great point. He’s still pretty young, right? I believe one of the big reasons Phil brought in Noah was to be a mentor defensively for KP and Willie H. He may never become a great defender, but it seems like defense is easier to improve upon than offense, especially for big men. This is just my speculation based on nothing but watching NBA for years. But he can improve. He’ll probably frustrate us a lot on defense this year but he seems to be NBA ready on offense all ready and we have him locked up for 4 years at 1 million per! This is pretty sweet.

    9. Defensive improvements:

      Noah
      Lee
      Holiday
      Anybody but Jose
      Baker
      NDour
      Plumlee

      That’s about half the roster.

    10. Well, I read Zach Lowe’s 30 crazy predictions. I disagree with one of them. I think Harden will beat James for MVP. He’s going to score like crazy and get assists as point guard. And Houston has looked great in preseason; I think they are undefeated. Teo years ago, Harden was close to getting the MVP, but last year he came to camp out of shape. He’s definitely not out of shape this season. I think he’ll have a great season.

    11. Well, I read Zach Lowe’s 30 crazy predictions. I disagree with one of them. I think Harden will beat James for MVP. He’s going to score like crazy and get assists as point guard. And Houston has looked great in preseason; I think they are undefeated. Teo years ago, Harden was close to getting the MVP, but last year he came to camp out of shape. He’s definitely not out of shape this season. I think he’ll have a great season.

      great season =/= MVP award

      Here are the MVP winners, year by year, in league ranked PPG, starting with 2015-16:

      1st
      6th
      1st
      4th
      3rd
      7th (Rose)
      2nd
      2nd
      2nd

      Then Nowitzki somehow landed outside of the top 10, and then two Nash awards (which were a travesty).

      The MVP award goes to

      (a) the top scorer
      (b) on a top-2 conference team
      (c) who plays >75 games

      Harden will put up Harden numbers, but if his team doesn’t produce, he won’t win anything.

    12. I mean, if they’re not even gonna vote Harden to 3rd team all NBA when he goes 29/7/6/2 60TS and makes the playoffs, how’s he going to win MVP?

    13. @Cock Jowles

      But the expectations are pretty low for Houston. Vegas puts them at 41.5 wins I believe. While if they only win 41, Harden can’t win, if they win 50+, that could work in Harden’s favor even though Houston still wouldn’t be a top team just because of narrative. Melo put up nearly identical numbers in 13/14 and 12/13, but because the Knicks dramatically outperformed expectations in 12/13, he ended up finishing 3rd in MVP voting. Rose’s MVP you could argue related to win total, but had CHI won 60 in 09/10, I doubt Rose would have won MVP on 10/11.

    14. You all make good points, but I think Houston will win a lot more than 41 games this season. As Latke said, the MVP voters may attribute that to Harden. If you want support for this, read the ESPN article suggesting Harden should be the number one fantasy pick (over Westbrook)

    15. Fair point — beating expectations might help. There’s also some bounce back effect from the YouTube defensive shaming suddenly making him seem underappreciated.

      Melo getting pissed at Slam for only ranking him 15 is making me question the value of his effusive scouting report on Chasson Randle.

    16. Houston had like the worst coaching, team chemistry and injury issues last year and still won 42. With a roster filled with guys who should thrive under MDA and more capable perimeter shooters I find it hard to believe Houston will be worse than last year.

      Also the narrative is already shaping up for Harden. Was selfish, bad teammate and a ball hog last year, but re-dedicated himself to the game, got in great shape and is now a leader. I already put a few bucks on him at 25-1. There’s a shot Houston wins 50+ and Harden puts up some silly 20/10 line on 57+ true shooting.

      Another long shot I like, but is Lillard at 40-1. He’s going to put up huge numbers and like Houston I could see them over performing to the tune of a 50+ win season as they tend to do under Stotts. Definitely more of a long shot, but one I’m considering a few bucks on.

      Lebron seems like the leader in the clubhouse for MVP though.

    17. Marc Gasol without the defense is like ____________ without _______________

      Hilary without the pantsuit ? Trump without the narcissism and sexual assault?

      I am excited about Wily because he is young and cheap but Marc Gasol is a really excellent, smart defender. I wish the reports on his defense were better. Still, 100% behind him.

    18. Another long shot I like, but is Lillard at 40-1. He’s going to put up huge numbers

      Lavor – Huger than last year? Why you think that?

      I’m curious for fantasy basketball reasons, primarily. My biggest mental debates getting ready for my draft, where i have the 10th pick and 15th pick in a 12 man league (with a few weird categories like double doubles and A:T Ratio) are, in no particular order:

      1) Wall vs Dame
      2) Debating who I like more this year in fantasy bball: Bron, Giannis, or Kawhi
      3) debating who i like from the pool of boringly effective efficient bigs like Brook, Ibaka, Favors, etc.

    19. great season =/= MVP award

      Here are the MVP winners, year by year, in league ranked PPG, starting with 2015-16:

      1st
      6th
      1st
      4th
      3rd
      7th (Rose)
      2nd
      2nd
      2nd

      Then Nowitzki somehow landed outside of the top 10, and then two Nash awards (which were a travesty).

      The MVP award goes to

      (a) the top scorer
      (b) on a top-2 conference team
      (c) who plays >75 games

      Harden will put up Harden numbers, but if his team doesn’t produce, he won’t win anything

      Whut?! The guy with the most pointz wins the MVP…except in 8 out of the past 11 years?! Including 6 years when he wasn’t even in the top 3? This might be the least logical argument I have ever read on this site.

      If your point is that the choice for MVP is not based on who’s the best player, or that a non-scorer has little chance of winning, I’d agree. Frankly, LBJ should have at least 10 MVPs by now. But your reasoning here is pretty loose.

    20. @prez

      Yeah, so the thing is I don’t know if he can put up bigger numbers than last year, but that team is young enough you could expect reasonable improvement from most of their rotation players, so I think while the most likely outcome is they stay mostly in place in the West, they could win a few more games, and jump ahead of Utah for that 4 seed with 50+ win games. That and the fact that Lillard is really well-liked by his teammates as a leader (like all of them talk about how amazing his leadership is) and he seems to have a lot of mass appeal make that somewhat enticing. It’s a long shot for a reason, but I think 40-1 is decent odds for that.

      Personally I prefer Lillard to Wall, because I think the value of pretty good assist numbers, better shooting efficiency and a high volume of 3’s is better than the combination Wall brings to the table. I had Lillard last year in 2 leagues and he killed it for me.

      2) I like Giannis, but that’s actually a quite interesting trio. If Kawhi could get a few more assists he’d be tempting to take in that trio for fantasy.

      3) Brook for sure. He actually has a competent penetrating guard to play with, they’re going more uptempo and at least going to pretend to space the floor around him and their general lack of talent means he’s going to get a lot of touches. The concern would be that Booker hoovers up a lot of Brook’s rebounds while he boxes out. I love Favors, but Utah spreads the wealth so much and they play at the most mind-numbingly slow pace for a team with that many athletes.

    21. I’m going to temper the enthusiasm about Wily because comparing players and setting expectations like that is never a good thing. I am very impressed with how sharp is offensive game is. He’s got excellent footwork and is showing a keen ball-sharing ability. He’s not there defensively, but he’s very young and has the build and athleticism to be a plus defender.

    22. the thing with wily is that this is his age 22 season… he still has some development left but usually it’s in the realm of secondary skills like ball handling or shooting….

      things like inside scoring… rebounding… defense… these are all pretty much static things.. thankfully he’s already decent at the first two…. but i wouldn’t expect him to be a plus defender ever as it’s a bit of a longshot for him to be adequate there…

    23. I feel like Willy’s problems on defense can be coached to where he’s at least passable as a starting big man. Things like recognizing an assignment in guarding the PnR, not letting your man slip by you in the low post, etc. can be taught and worked upon if someone is diligent about it. But then again, I still have nightmares about Amar’e’s atrocious defensive fundamentals as a veteran on our team so…

    24. @24 it is a long shot for Willy to become a great defender but Marc Gasol was 24 when he came into the league and changed his defensive rep.

      Hopefully he can land somewhere between Kanter and Gasol but even that maybe a huge stretch. Size wise him and Kanter have pretty similar measurements across the board when the were tested as 19 y/o’s.

      Also, how many brothers entered the NBA at the same time while not being twins? It has probably happen more often than I can think of but do anyone have any other examples? How has Jauncho been doing in Denver?

    25. Saw on twitter we have signed up Early again. Looks like he will be in the D-League while he rehabs an apparent hamstring that kept him out of camp. Good insurance to have in the D-League, but haven’t we seen enough of Early to determine that he’s probably not worthy of an end of the bench spot? I think with what we have seen from the camp invites, he would struggle to beat out anyone. Probably hasn’t been given too much of a go, but I fell that he would be better served heading to Europe. Can make some decent money and the lifestyle is pretty good for Euro-ballers.

    26. juan has had 1 great game 2 terrible games and a mediocre game

      he looks good.

    27. with marc gasol… he basically hid himself from scouts by being so fat… the only reason he was around was because of pau… and the only reason the grizz noticed him was pau told them about him after he started getting in shape…. by the time he came stateside he was a totally different player.. and his body was still changing after that…

      with growth spurts and massive weight loss…. you’re going to see tangible results on the court because the physical dynamics are all changed… i imagine the same thing happened with porzingis when he grew 3 more inches the year before he got drafted…

      with wily.. i don’t think you can expect a transformation to that level… and defensively he seems more like al jefferson and amare than someone like marc gasol…. being smart counts a lot and i’m not sure he has that level of court awareness that marc has either…

      it’s not impossible.. i just would not expect it since it’s a longshot…

    28. I hope WH just develops into a very good Willy Hernangomez. In other words, just work on his mid-range game and defensive awareness. That would make him a solid rotation guy at a great (for the team) salary.

      I asked about Early a few days ago, so now we know.

    29. This is the whole Clinton campaign? Press leaks about bad behavior from decades ago? That’s all you got? Really??

    30. I don’t even think Willy needs to good on defense to be a rotation level player. He flashed some serious offensive skill that could outweigh his defensive shortcomings. Even if he’s a career backup that would be a great pick by Phil.

      On Cle re-signing, I think it’s Phil reaching for one of his guys to pan out. Doesn’t hurt us though.

    31. Hmmm. Not sure if DRed is commenting on the length of Noah’s contract or reacting to reub’s comment about Clinton’s campaign lacking substance…

    32. That’s a topically flavored Noah joke, the kind of premium material you’ve come to expect from DRed.

    33. That’s great stuff from Pastaritis, enjoyed the insight into Porzingis, thanks for posting.

      A bit of a bummer that Kobe is his idol but a small blemish only….

    34. A bit of a bummer that Kobe is his idol but a small blemish only….

      He was only, like, 8 when Kobe raped that woman.

    35. So who are we going to amnesty next year, Noah, or MMR (mega max Rose?)

    36. Whut?! The guy with the most pointz wins the MVP…except in 8 out of the past 11 years?! Including 6 years when he wasn’t even in the top 3? This might be the least logical argument I have ever read on this site.

      If your point is that the choice for MVP is not based on who’s the best player, or that a non-scorer has little chance of winning, I’d agree. Frankly, LBJ should have at least 10 MVPs by now. But your reasoning here is pretty loose.

      Z-man,

      The point is that PPG is extremely important in MVP voting. You need to be near the top of the leaderboard to sniff a trophy, unless there’s some weird media narrative (Nash) behind you. They simply do not give MVP awards to players like 2014-15’s Kawhi or 1995-96’s Dennis Rodman or 2003-04’s Ben Wallace, despite very good reasons to do so.

      There are several thresholds that a player needs to shoot for. PPG, team wins, games played. That’s all I said. You’re tilting at windmills.

    37. I think there is a decent chance Harden becomes the first player since ’73 (and only the third ever) to average 30 and 10. If ever there was an age/roster/coach to help him do it, it’s this one.

      I think Hernangomez is a grade-A stud. I also think he’s good at basketball.

    38. Jowles,
      Even though you can quibble with who actually won, there’s not a single player on the list (including Nash)who wasn’t more than worthy of consideration. Well, maybe Rose.

      My biggest qualm with MVP voting is that it is a popularity contest that is tarnished for various reasons. In some instances, it punishes players who won before. In others, it punishes players on the basis of team accomplishment. Is it skewed towards players who score a lot? Probably, but people generally pay more to see scorers than rebounders, so the term “valuable” probably has a broader meaning than some would like, factoring in marketing as well as performance. Ben Wallace never put as many fannies in the seats as Allen Iverson. But whatever.

      Perhaps you are arguing that there simply shouldn’t be an MVP award, just DPOY and OPOY awards?

    39. My biggest qualm with MVP voting is that it is a popularity contest that is tarnished for various reasons. In some instances, it punishes players who won before. In others, it punishes players on the basis of team accomplishment. Is it skewed towards players who score a lot? Probably, but people generally pay more to see scorers than rebounders, so the term “valuable” probably has a broader meaning than some would like, factoring in marketing as well as performance. Ben Wallace never put as many fannies in the seats as Allen Iverson. But whatever.

      more like Mostest Very Popularest am I right

    40. Uh, no, your central point is that points matter most, yet according to your own data, the guy with the most points has less than a 30% chance of winning, and a guy in the top 3 has less than a 50% chance of winning. Your points about Rodman and Wallace are just silly, and Kawhi Leonard was second last year, meaning he could have won.

    41. 40% odds for one candidate winning vs. 60% odds for the field is a pretty good spread for any individual MVP candidate

    42. Z-man, I feel like you’re disagreeing just to disagree here. Kawhi Leonard was 2nd in MVP voting because he was the leading scorer on a team that was top 2 in its conference. You cannot win MVP without scoring a lot of points unless your name is Steve Nash, and even then you have to play on a team that wins a ton of games. That’s absolutely correct. The formula has essentially been points divided by total wins.

      Obviously the LeBron bias is very strong in voters’ minds as they try not to give him the MVP, but I’d say KD and Steph Curry absolutely deserved to win MVP in the years they won the award, especially 2014 and 2016. Your point about the popularity contest is correct, but what better way to be popular is there than to win games and score points? And again, not being LeBron James also helps a ton these days.

    43. Points do matter and generally some of the best players in the league are also some of the better scorers in the league. Even in Kawhi’s case the PPG matters, because he remained elite defensively and increased his offensive role and usage, while still being incredibly efficient. That jump really does matter in how good one is on the court.

      It would make a lot more sense if instead of listing where these players ranked in PPG we actually listed their names and I’d like to know, outside of Rose, who these totally undeserving MVPs were.

      15-16: Curry
      14-15: Curry
      13-14: Durant
      12-13: Lebron
      11-12: Lebron
      10-11: Rose
      09-10: Lebron
      08-09: Lebron
      07-08: Kobe
      06-07: Dirk

    44. @DRed

      I agree Kobe didn’t deserve it, but he was still great and that wasn’t a PPG award, it was a lifetime achievement for being great but not having won an MVP yet award.

      I really think the idea that PPG is the major driving force in MVP voting is just off. There’s so much more at play than PPG including narrative, likability and team success.

    45. I think team success is a bigger driver than PPG, but there is a PPG threshold you have to cross. If Curry wasn’t alive, would Kawhi won the MVP last year? Maybe, but would have have won the MVP if he was the star of a 34 win Nets team? Not a chance in hell. At the same time, Denis Rodman reborn isn’t winning an MVP even if he’s on a 60 win team. He’d get some votes in this day and age, but he’d never get the trophy.

    46. Yeah….around 20 ppg is the threshold. Nash was at 15.5 and 18.8 ppg in his MVP years…..I doubt we ever see that again.

    47. I started responding to Z-man, but this is a guy totally ignoring what I’m writing, all to fight a strawman of his own making.

      Proceed, Mr. Q. Keep it going.

    48. Well, Rodman was not even considered by most fans, coaches and players to be the MVP of his various teams, much less of the league.

    49. i dont think jowles was ever saying that ppg is the only determiner of mvp voting–he explicitly mentioned other factors like team performance, etc. in determining the mvp vote distribution. he was just saying that ppg is generally a major factor of consideration for mvp voters, which is undoubtedly true.

    50. @54 Interesting, would you have said the same thing before Nash won? Why are you so convinced that it will never happen again?

    51. @58 I don’t think it will ever happen again because the league has shifted into score first PG play…..so even someone in Nash’s role who is MVP worthy will most likely score at least 20 ppg.

      Can you think of a good/great PG who doesn’t score 20 a game? Even CP3 gets 19.5 a game

    52. he was just saying that ppg is generally a major factor of consideration for mvp voters, which is undoubtedly true.

      But that’s also because quite often the best players are also 20+ PPG scorers. When the MVP isn’t a 20 PPG scorer they’re usually racking up assists like Nash, who also had a great narrative behind him. I’m saying I don’t think PPG is the main driver, it’s just quite often something many of the best players in the league up for MVP awards do consistently and well.

      I mean who are the best 3 players in the league right now? Lebron, Curry and Durant is what most would say. All of them score 20+ in their sleep. That’s just part of what gives them their value as great players.

    53. Right…ppg is like a slur in the uppity stats community. Its amazing.

      How do you feel about batting average?

      (I doubt you meant it to be derogatory, but “uppity” is a word you probably shouldn’t use.)

    54. How do you feel about batting average?

      It matters to some degree, but there are far more important statistics.

      Jowles, I think the reality is that the best players in the league often have the ball in their hands a lot to either score or create for others. The very best can do that efficiently and at a high volume, so they naturally will tend to be 20+ PPG guys. I can agree with you that fans and at times front offices may value PPG too much, but I think in the case of MVP voting it’s just a byproduct of the role most of the best players in the league play for their teams.

    55. Jowles, I think the reality is that the best players in the league often have the ball in their hands a lot to either score or create for others. The very best can do that efficiently and at a high volume, so they naturally will tend to be 20+ PPG guys. I can agree with you that fans and at times front offices may value PPG too much, but I think in the case of MVP voting it’s just a byproduct of the role most of the best players in the league play for their teams.

      As a person who often uses TS% as the best “little” stat to evaluate player contribution, I’m not going to disagree. Scoring efficiency (team-level) is by far the most important factor in team success, so it naturally follows that individual efficiency matters a great deal. (I’ve got to be the most vocal supporter of Tyson Chandler’s 10 PPG on 70% TS, so why would I not extend the same to the Currys and Durants of the world, putting up triple the shots at nearly the same clip?)

      I’m just saying that when MVP voting happens, you must clear a PPG threshold to be considered. Then your team has to win a certain number of games. As Rose and Iverson have shown, if you are the top scorer on a top team, you’re probably going to be considered, even if your middling efficiency were buoyed by team defense enabling your team to achieve a high win total.

    56. I’m just saying that when MVP voting happens, you must clear a PPG threshold to be considered. Then your team has to win a certain number of games. As Rose and Iverson have shown, if you are the top scorer on a top team, you’re probably going to be considered, even if your middling efficiency were buoyed by team defense enabling your team to achieve a high win total.

      Fair. I do think that the undeserved MVP unfortunately overshadows that Rose in that and the next season was really fucking good, even if he was well short of Lebron-level impact.

    57. Ppg has traditionally been really important in explaining MVP votes, all NBA votes, all rookie votes, salary, career longevity, HOF etc..

      People can take their shots at Dave Berri at WP, but no one really has ever raised any issues I have heard of with the statistical work he did showing the importance of raw points as an explanatory factor in NBA decision making. That part of his works stands up quite nicely.

      I think things have changed somewhat. Front offices seem savvier these days. But it’s still important.

    58. Fair. I do think that the undeserved MVP unfortunately overshadows that Rose in that and the next season was really fucking good, even if he was well short of Lebron-level impact.

      I don’t think the Knicks have had a backcourt player as good as he was that year — maybe since Marbury’s one good season in 2004-05 — but he just didn’t have the efficiency to win the MVP on any other team. His MVP was a product of his team’s defense, through and through. There’s no argument otherwise.

    59. I think there is a minimum height threshold for MVP. Historically, around 90% 0f MVP winners are at least 6’6″ and the majority are at least 6’8″. Yeah, it’s definitely height.

    60. ahahahaha you constantly impress me with your intelligence, Z-man

      it’s never-ending with you, thank you for your insight

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