Knicks Morning News (2016.09.29)

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Noah says road to title goes through Cleveland
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 9:08:20 PM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek running a fast-paced version of the triangle
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 7:15:58 PM)

    Knicks head coach Jeff Hornacek was running a lightning-quick version of the triangle during practice Wednesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Noah: Knicks want to beat LeBron, Cavaliers
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 3:16:40 PM)

    Newly acquired Joakim Noah said he and his Knicks teammates now have a singular goal this season — beat LeBron James and the Cavaliers.

  • [SNY Knicks] Derrick Rose makes strong move to basket at Knicks camp
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 2:31:40 PM)

    Derrick Rose makes a nice drive to basket during Knicks camp.

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose wants Porzingis, Knicks to get out and run offensively
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 11:35:56 AM)

    New Knicks point guard Derrick Rose wants Kristaps Porzingis and the entire Knicks team to get out and run offensively.

  • [SNY Knicks] Why Anthony’s leadership qualities will be tested early on
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 8:44:00 AM)

    While the New York Knicks boast a new-look team and have to deal with Derrick Rose’s rape case, it will be up to Carmelo Anthony and Jeff Hornacek to keep the team focused.

  • [ESPN] Thursday’s Knicks News: Jackson watches Hornacek run a fast-paced offense in practice
    (Thursday, September 29, 2016 5:15:47 AM)

    Thursday’s Knicks News: Jackson watches Hornacek run a fast-paced offense in practice

  • [ESPN] Carmelo Anthony: The Knicks needed Joakim Noah’s intensity
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 5:37:33 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony: The Knicks needed Joakim Noah’s intensity

  • [ESPN] Rose attorneys: LAPD investigation is not news
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 2:26:51 PM)

    Rose attorneys: LAPD investigation is not news

  • [ESPN] Dad and the Zen Master: Coby Karl’s two legendary mentors
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 11:00:06 AM)

    Dad and the Zen Master: Coby Karl’s two legendary mentors

  • [NYDN] Joakim Noah joins Carmelo, Rose in Knicks’ goal to beat LeBron
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 7:44:37 PM)

    Joakim Noah has directed just about every profanity in the book at LeBron James but in the end all those names would never hurt LeBron.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo Anthony wants to see Cavs get a deal done with J.R. Smith
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 10:20:51 AM)

    Carmelo Anthony will see his old friend LeBron James when the Knicks open the regular season, but another Carmelo pal could be missing.

  • [NY Newsday] Joakim Noah brings an intensity the Knicks needed
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 4:06:00 PM)

    Joakim Noah made his first appearance at training camp Wednesday, and provided the Knicks with some things that Carmelo Anthony said they have sorely been missing.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Jeff Hornacek given freedom to use triangle offense as he wants
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 3:25:00 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek has never coached the triangle offense, but he said Knicks president Phil Jackson has given him the freedom to run it how he sees fit.

  • [NYPost] Knicks unveil breakneck offense – in front of silent Phil Jackson
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 2:20:01 PM)

    WEST POINT – Jeff Hornacek’s fast-paced vision – and version – of Phil Jackson’s triangle was on display during Wednesday’s scrimmages at Christl Arena. Every possession – whether it was the blue-shirted first unit, the black-shirted second unit or the white-shirted third unit, attempted to race the ball downcourt at warp speed. Jackson was making good on his…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose plans to use rape accuser’s ex-friends against her
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 12:45:17 PM)

    Putting on his own version of a full-court press, new Knicks guard Derrick Rose wants his rape accuser to know one thing — if she takes him to trial, it’s going to be an all-out war. Rose had his lawyers file a brief in Los Angeles Tuesday revealing their plan to call on the woman’s…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo questions Cavaliers on J.R. Smith contract delay
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 12:15:53 PM)

    WEST POINT — When he heard the news the Knicks would open the season in Cleveland as witnesses to the Cavaliers’ historic ring ceremony on Oct. 25, Carmelo Anthony smiled, knowing the NBA was up to its tricks. But Anthony says he’s happy, believing the Knicks will get a chance to do something special after LeBron…

  • [NYPost] Joakim Noah: How I’ll prove Bulls wrong over ‘low blow’
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 9:47:11 AM)

    WEST POINT — Joakim Noah is not only a new Knick. He’s a new father. The prize of free agency was excused from the first two days of Knicks training camp for the birth of his daughter. After his first practice as a Knick here on Wednesday, Noah said: “I was dealing with something beautiful….

  • [NYTimes] Nike Seen on Track for Long-Run Growth Despite Tough Competition
    (Wednesday, September 28, 2016 1:15:36 PM)

    Nike Inc, the world’s No. 1 footwear maker, will continue to dominate the sportswear market despite intensifying competition in North America, analysts said on Wednesday, a day after the company reported “futures orders” below estimates.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    93 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.09.29)”

    1. Like ruru and others, I think a lot of the season’s outcome will depend on Noah returning to form, but another guy who could be really important is Lance Thomas. If his shooting is for real, he’ll unlock a small lineup that could be really competitive against just about any lineup out there -Rose/Jennings, Lee, Melo, Thomas, and Porzingis.

      According to NBAwowy – in 2015-16 when Melo/Lance/Porzingis were on the floor without any other bigs, that unit’s ORTg was 115.4, with a net rating of +5, as compared with the overall season ORtg of 105 and net rating of -3. That unit got absolutely killed on the boards though, both offensive and defensive, which makes the net rating all the more impressive from just a shooting perspective. Hopefully with improved strength, KP can hold up as the main rebounder better than he did last year.

      If his shooting ISN’T for real — I’m not sure who we could reliably put out there as a 3/4 swing guy in a small lineup. We don’t know what Kuzminskas is (probably will replicate Derrick Williams, which is not necessarily a good thing especially on the defensive end.) NDour theoretically fits the bill as a guy who has some rim protection and shooting attributes, but we know even less about him than Kuzminskas. I guess you could make a Jennings/Rose/Lee/Melo/KP small lineup but that doesn’t feel like it would be viable defensively at all. Lance’s size and defensive activity are really valuable especially if his shooting is for real. It’s no surprise that the Knicks season essentially went up in flames after his Jan 18 injury (which also semi-coincided with Melo’s ankle after he stepped on the ref’s foot running up the court).

    2. I don’t know…Lance Thomas is the very definition of journeyman, third string player that finds some momentary popularity in a terrible team like the Knicks. He is not good, but the team is so bad, his game looks ok by comparison.

      I don’t think he can play a prominent role on a good team. Novak, O’Quin, Copeland, Jared Jeffries, Galloway, Jeremy Lin, Derrick Williams, Toney Douglas, Prigioni, Shawne Williams, etc.: all decent end of the bench players forced into a prominent role on a bad team. As soon as they go to a better one, all their serious flaws are exposed.

      I would not count on Lance Thomas to help make the Knicks legitimate.

    3. I don’t think he can play a prominent role on a good team. Novak, O’Quin, Copeland, Jared Jeffries, Galloway, Jeremy Lin, Derrick Williams, Toney Douglas, Prigioni, Shawne Williams, etc.: all decent end of the bench players forced into a prominent role on a bad team. As soon as they go to a better one, all their serious flaws are exposed.

      Not all of those guys even played together on the same team. Many of them contributed to a 54 win Knicks team which, fluke or not, was definitely not a bad team.

      End of bench players even on NBA champions will be flawed. If you want to go find 15 perfect NBA players and fit them all under the cap, good luck.

    4. @3 – don’t be silly. nobody is asking for flawless end-of-bench players. I’m saying that end-of-bench material forced into a prominent role doesn’t lead to success. You can’t be a contender with Lance Thomas, Shawnee Williams or Jeremy Lin as a starter (even with Lin being much better than the other two).

    5. I’m saying that end-of-bench material forced into a prominent role doesn’t lead to success.

      You grouped together a bunch of different guys with varying skills and levels of performance and labeled them all as end of bench talent. But yeah, if Lance plays like he did last year he’s a perfectly good role player off the bench capable of playing a role on a good team. Guys that can shoot 40% from 3, score efficiently and play solid on ball defense on multiple positions aren’t bums.

      Flawed, yes, incapable of playing a role on a good team, no.

    6. Derrick Williams wasn’t good at too many things, but we shouldn’t blindly assume that Kuz can replace him. It isn’t the easiest thing in the world to post a .550 TS% on a 23% usage, especially when the guy who is supposed to replace him is an NBA rookie. We might get lucky and Kuz may end up being Chris Copeland, but don’t bet on it.

    7. I don’t really get what Theo is saying here. Lance shouldn’t be a starter on a good team? Sure. He was pretty good though,at 3/D type things, last year. So that should mean something. Ok.

    8. I really wish we found a way to keep Derrick Williams. He’s one of the few young guys we had that was improving every year and was good at basketball. The guy was perfect for Hornacek’s uptempo game and had per 36 averages of 18.7 points and 7.4 rebounds a game. Maybe we’ll realize how valuable he can be to us and try to re sign him, but knowing our luck he’ll get 1,000 more minutes in Miami and actually average 18 and 7 per night. Then he’ll cost $20 million a year and we’ll have missed out.

      We should have signed D Will for another season. He only got $5M. I’m still upset he got away, and I really hope 28 year old Lance Thomas proves to be the player he was last season over the next four years.

    9. Theo, your argument is actually really bad.

      GSW: Harrison Barnes was a starter and played 4,400 minutes on a team that won the most games in the NBA the last two years. He’s not very good at basketball despite what his WS48 says. He’s about as good as Lance Thomas to be honest.

      OKC: Dion Waiters. I rest my case here.

      Chicago: They managed to win 50 in 2015 despite 1,500 god awful minutes from Derrick Rose, and they probably would have won 50 games again if Butler, Noah, and Gasol didn’t have health problems.

      Cleveland: Refer to their 2007, 2009, and 2010 rosters.

      NYK: In 2013, we won a whole 54 games with Ray Felton as the starter bro.

      The point is guys who produce like bench players (Barnes and Felton) and even guys who produce like they don’t deserve NBA minutes (Waiters, Rose) can still play big minutes on NBA contenders. “End of bench player pushed into a prominent role” is pretty much the story of every beloved 90s Knick not named Patrick Ewing. It’s all about the star power. If Noah, KP, and Melo play like legitimate stars, and I concede there is a very slim chance of this becoming reality, we can rely on a guy like LT to play big minutes because most of our win production will come from good players. When you have good players, you can afford to start Derrick Rose and Harrison Barnes.

    10. I wanted to keep Williams too. :(

      What’s the deal with bashing Lance? All the original poster said was that “if his shooting is for real” and then you go and say he sucks and can’t start and only looked good because we weren’t good last year.

      Um, when Lance played last year we actually were good. Or at least we were on our way to being good. When Lance played we were a 500 team. When he got injured was when things fell apart for us. And he didn’t start and isn’t going to start. As the 7th or 8th man though he is a good player. All of the guys you mentioned are also good 6th through 9th players on a team. So I don’t even get your point other than to sh*t on Lance and the Knicks. Take the 9th player on the Warriors and he would not be a good starter. What is your point other than to talk down a player bc LOL Knicks?

    11. Are all you Rose haters going to apologize when the charges against him are dropped because the “victim” consented to everything?

    12. Theo, prior to Lance’s knee injury, he was really freaking good last year. Is it real? Is the sample size too small? I think that’s really the only argument — because from Game 1 until Jan 18 when he had his knee injury, he averaged 14.5 points/36, 42.5% from 3 point range, 89.5% FT%, and a TS of 58.6 on a usage of 18 in 929 minutes. it’s not a huge sample but it’s not tiny either. And it could be argued he was our best wing defender during that time too (not a real stretch considering his “competition” would be Melo, DWill, and Afflalo).

      by the way, the ONLY players in the entire league last year who averaged FG%>45, 3P%>40, FT%>88 for the year were JJ Redick and Steph Curry. And that’s what Lance was doing prior to his knee injury.

      Obviously he will come down to earth somewhat, but if he can play good defense and shoot 37% from 3, he’s a really valuable player on a good contract.

    13. Reub, I’m fine with your trolling when you just blather on and on about how great the Knicks are, but please shut up about Rose’s off the court pecadillos. There are plenty of other websites for your scorching hot takes on sexual assault lawsuits.

    14. I’m nervous about LT’s sample size re: 3 point shooting, plus the fact that he’s injury pronish. He was a meh player last year and was only an average defender (to these eyes at least) despite his undoubtedly useful ability to guard multiple positions.

      If he replicates his production from last year, he’s a useful role player. If he performs a little worse, well, idk if he has enough skills to be a useful player if he shoots 36% or below on 3s

    15. For those who don’ understand my comment: it was post #2 and a direct reply to Frank’s suggestion that Thomas might play an important role as a starter in a small-ball Knicks lineup.

      If his shooting is for real, he’ll unlock a small lineup that could be really competitive against just about any lineup out there -Rose/Jennings, Lee, Melo, Thomas, and Porzingis.

      That’s the proper context for my comments. To repeat: I think Thomas is not the type of player that could be counted on to play an important role on a good team.

      And no, Lance Thomas is no Harrison Barnes. Let’s get real, guys…lol

    16. Hey some of you are the guys who condemned the man without the facts. Not me. I just want to see if those who did this are honorable enough to admit you were wrong and apologize.

    17. Theo, prior to Lance’s knee injury, he was really freaking good last year. Is it real? Is the sample size too small?

      Frank, I think the sample size you base your analysis on is too small and we can’t really expect him to sustain that type of streak. He is not a rookie, so we have quite a bit of data indicating he is a journeyman basketball player. Are we supposed to ignore the ‘big’ data in favor of the ‘small data’?

    18. Thank you for your valuable contributions to the discourse, reub. Why don’t you stick to telling us how awesome Tony Wroten is going to be and we’ll all be fine.

    19. Maybe the triangle did Lance some good. Maybe he’s blossoming into a better player. Maybe his .500 eFG% last year was an outlier, and he’s due to regress back to his career mark of .459.

    20. I used to think Reub was just a troll, but I’m beginning to think he’s actually a senile old man who believes everything he says

    21. I was fine with keeping Lance at his contract, but if it was a choice between him and Galloway I would’ve preferred Langston. His success seems more sustainable and he could reasonably improve. That’s in the past, though, so hoping for the best with Lance.

    22. According to NBAwowy – in 2015-16 when Melo/Lance/Porzingis were on the floor without any other bigs, that unit’s ORTg was 115.4, with a net rating of +5, as compared with the overall season ORtg of 105 and net rating of -3. That unit got absolutely killed on the boards though, both offensive and defensive, which makes the net rating all the more impressive from just a shooting perspective.

      This covers 137 minutes of basketball in which LT scored at a 67 TS%. That should tell you something.

      Lance, if he can keep shooting, is certainly a guy who could play a significant role for any team, because he’d be a decent enough versatile forward. He doesn’t do any box score stuff besides score, though. So even if he’s playing good defense in a way that doesn’t translate into boxscore stats for him, his lack of rebounding/steals/blocks/assists is detrimental. All that said, if you can hit 38%-40% of your threes and not shit yourself on defense you can play NBA basketball.

    23. Totally agree that the sample size is tiny.

      That said — the fact that his career FT% is just about 80% suggests that it’s not a total fluke. And that’s over about 340 attempts. Also, his improvement in 3 point shooting coincided with his improvement in his FT shooting, suggesting that maybe something mechanical was worked out. I dunno.

      I wonder whether there’s been another player who suddenly decided to start shooting 3s mid-career and actually shot them well after basically never shooting them before at any point in his collegiate or pro career.

    24. I would not have given Lance a 4 year contract (this is a theme), but if he can shoot 3’s pretty well it’s not that big of a deal. I wouldn’t be confident he’s going to shoot 40% from 3, but I think he’s a decent bet to shoot 3’s well enough.

    25. I would not have given Lance a 4 year contract (this is a theme), but if he can shoot 3’s pretty well it’s not that big of a deal. I wouldn’t be confident he’s going to shoot 40% from 3, but I think he’s a decent bet to shoot 3’s well enough.

      At $6MM for his ages 26-30 seasons, I think it’s totally fine.

      by the way our 3rd PG worries are a thing of the past. According to Berman, Sasha is playing PG today.

    26. I have nothing against Lance, but if he’s one of critical pieces to the season, we aren’t very good. It’s one thing to say if you have 3-4 really good players, a guy like Lance can help fill out the bench. It’s another to consider him a key piece.

    27. he’ll unlock a small lineup that could be really competitive against just about any lineup out there -Rose/Jennings, Lee, Melo, Thomas, and Porzingis.

      Theo, Frank never said anything about Lance starting. Just talked about potential small ball lineups that we could run out there IF Lance is basically the same player this season as he was up until mid-January last season.

    28. All players who play a significant amount of minutes, starters or bench, are a key piece. You can’t win if your starting 5 is weak. And you can’t win if you don’t have decent bench pieces. The bench guys don’t have to be as good and need to serve specific roles, but if you can’t go at least 10 deep you’re not gonna go very far. You can possibly be a 40ish win team that makes the playoffs with a good starting 5 and no bench but that’s about it. So yes, Lance is KEY to our success this year. So is Melo, KP, Noah, Rose, Lee, Jennings, Holiday, KQ, Kuz and WHG. They don’t all have to be great, especially the bench guys, but we need to be strong 1 through 10 at least to be a good team. That’s how it works.

    29. All the trial stuff aside, it’s nice to hear that Rose looks explosive early in camp. I can’t even remember that last “sudden” point guard we’ve had. Seriously, who was the last PG (other than the 10 minutes of Linsanity) who could take someone off the dribble without 40 picks being set?

    30. Many of you are so obsessed at taking Phil Jackson down (because you know more than he does) that you were ready to condemn an innocent man to get at him. Shame on you.

    31. I’m not on the Lance train, but it’s a small salary for a high-character guy who plays good D. He’s at worst a poor man’s Jared Jeffries, so no real downside.

      I’m waiting to hear good news out of practice re: Willy, Kuz, Ndour, Baker, Plumlee or Randle. A couple of these guys has to step up to make me feel optimistic about our bench.

    32. They don’t all have to be great, especially the bench guys, but we need to be strong 1 through 10 at least to be a good team. That’s how it works.

      Not really. If you have 3-4 really good guys all you need are some guys who don’t totally suck (like Lance last season, or a host of other NBA players). It’s why the Clippers inability to put a team around their core 3 is so pathetic.

    33. Reub is actually kind of right. As more and more of Jane Doe’s friends and colleagues come forward to give testimony casting doubt or outright refuting her (already highly improbable, even based solely on her own testimony) version of the events, the silence is deafening from those who were all too willing to play judge, jury and executioner.

    34. Because it doesn’t fit their destructive narrative. I’ve never seen such bitterness and low blows as I see in here. Its a shame because I’ll be enjoying Knicks basketball this year and many of you will be finding everything you can to bring it down.

    35. he’ll unlock a small lineup that could be really competitive against just about any lineup out there -Rose/Jennings, Lee, Melo, Thomas, and Porzingis.

      Theo, Frank never said anything about Lance starting.

      That suggested lineup looks awfully close to the Knicks’ starting lineup, but I might be mistaken… ;-)

    36. That suggested lineup looks awfully close to the Knicks’ starting lineup, but I might be mistaken… ;-)

      Right…except it’s not. It’s missing one big piece. Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. And the point is simply that if Lance doesn’t pumpkinify then, in theory, he can unlock some small ball lineups, not limited to the exact composition that Frank suggested, given his ability to kinda credibly defend 3 positions and shoot 40% from 3.

    37. I have a moral issue with people making armchair judgments without knowing all the facts. It’s just wrong. People should be innocent until proven guilty in all spheres of life, not just legally. Here’s what I said two days ago when I was too busy to respond to the barrage of judgementalism sent my way.

      Yeah, I agree, the media and reporting culture supports a guilty until innocent practice, which is definitely wrong. There are false rape claims made all the time. I think just as much as the accuser should remain anonymous, the accused should as well. That said, yes, this is a circus, and we don’t need it right now on our team, but that’s from a purely selfish-fan point of view. I mean, he could be innocent, and all those ‘facts’ we’ve heard could be lies, until proven in court. Not picking a side, just pointing out the obvious.

      Jowles:

      Presumption of innocence is a legal right designed to protect individuals from persecution. It has nothing to do with private citizens making personal judgments about facts published in a deposition. Likewise, whether Derrick Rose is found liable has nothing to do with me hearing him say, “What is consent?” and thinking that he might just be a bona-fide scumbag.

      O.J. Simpson was found not guilty, and therefore he should not be imprisoned based on that determination. Also, O.J. Simpson killed two people and I have every right to think he is a terrible person for doing so.

      What if the accuser is lying for all the obvious reasons? It’s POSSIBLE. So I will not make any judgment. In either case, two friends have come forward with testimony for the former.

    38. Also, please note:

      I’m mostly expecting him to turn back into a pumpkin, or at least regress significantly enough as a shooter as to render him barely useful. He’d go from versatileish 3&(decent)D wing to decent D wing who can’t shoot, rebound, pass, or generate TOs.

      However, if he doesn’t regress, his presence does allow Horny to play with small ball groupings that will only really be possible with him AND KP on the court together

    39. I think my take on it remains that even if she is lying, so just based on the undisputed facts, the whole thing gives me a bad taste.

    40. Let’s review:

      –Jane Doe claims to have been slipped a date-rape drug at Rose’s house and to have become so incapacitated that she stuck her hand in a fire and burned herself badly. Hours later, she was sending multiple, coherent text messages to Rose inviting him over to her apartment. Does that sound like the behavior of someone who was not only badly injured but also under the influence of a drug that renders people unconscious? In a word: no.

      –Rose and his friends spent nearly an hour calling and texting her to let them in to her apartment. If you’d roofied someone, would you call them with any expectation they would answer the door? No. Doe’s roommate at the time also claimed to hear no noises that would suggest a break-in and that Doe was smiling and happy the following morning.

      –There is no physical evidence, no rape kit, she didn’t visit a doctor (even for the burned hand) or report this alleged assault in any way.

      –Doe’s first communication with Rose after this alleged gang rape was a text asking for reimbursement for a sex belt. Doe also subsequently sent texts to Rose saying “thanks for the good dick.” No comment.

      –Doe texted her friend about her plans to pay off her couch and buy a new plasma TV as a result of suing Derrick Rose. She later texted the same friend to apologize for the inconvenience of being involved in the lawsuit but that she had to do it “for financial reasons.”

      –A different friend was recently deposed and stated that Doe was bragging about sleeping with Rose and his friends when they partied together in Vegas, and responded “no” to the explicit question of whether she had been raped.

      Do any of these facts, in isolation, exonerate Derrick Rose? No. Do all of them, together, make it appear very unlikely that he committed the drugging and forcible gang rape of which he is accused? Uh… yeah.

      Will anyone here who has said all kinds of horrible things about his character in the last…

    41. What if the accuser is lying for all the obvious reasons? It’s POSSIBLE. So I will not make any judgment.

      Sure, it is possible. But cretins like reub here have put scare quotes around the word “victim” and have already made the judgment that Rose cannot possibly have assaulted this woman, and that he has been all but exonerated. He is making the exact same rush to judgment he so righteously condemns.

    42. just cancelled my cable because charter sucks. Has anyone found a way to watch the games online this year besides league pass?

    43. Facts:

      1) Doe had previously rebuffed group sex requests
      2) Doe was drinking that night
      3) Doe was almost assuredly asleep when Rose and his two friends arrived
      4) Rose took the used condom with him after the alleged assault occurred

      We can’t make any judgments about Rose’s character based on these things, but some hearsay from a few people who weren’t there that night (with other hearsay contradicting them) makes Rose an upstanding citizen. Gotcha.

    44. Is more out there than one affidavit Rose’s attorneys had a “friend” of the accuser sign?

      No. This is the big smoking gun from the “she’s a liar!!!!!!!!!” crowd.

    45. Yo there is no “she’s a liar crowd” there is a let’s wait and see crowd. But there sure is a he’s guilty/I can’t root for the Knicks crowd. Huge difference

    46. 1) Doe had previously rebuffed group sex requests
      2) Doe was drinking that night
      3) Doe was almost assuredly asleep when Rose and his two friends arrived
      4) Rose took the used condom with him after the alleged assault occurred

      This is why I can’t judge anything from the outside. Now, don’t forget that Rose had a prior promiscuous relationship with her, and it’s quite possible that they’re both usually drunk or high, and he may have also shown up at her place late nights at other times as well, even when she’s asleep. She may be OK with that. I’m just not able to judge. It’s really whether or not she was too drunk to consent to sex. A lot of other facts are irrelevant. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this type of behavior, so I will not slut-shame either party here.

      Out of curiosity, the only reason I’ve heard of people personally disposing their condoms is to prevent self-insemination. Any other reason?

    47. 1) Doe had previously rebuffed group sex requests
      2) Doe was drinking that night
      3) Doe was almost assuredly asleep when Rose and his two friends arrived
      4) Rose took the used condom with him after the alleged assault occurred

      I don’t know who is telling the truth in this matter but re: #3 – presumably you say this because she didn’t return any of the texts when Rose and co. got there. For all we know she was in the shower, dropping a deuce, phone was on vibrate, etc. That certainly doesn’t prove anything. I miss texts all the time, and it doesn’t mean I’m incapacitated. I’m not sure how #4 is relevant at all, especially since everyone has agreed that everyone had sex.

      –Doe texted her friend about her plans to pay off her couch and buy a new plasma TV as a result of suing Derrick Rose. She later texted the same friend to apologize for the inconvenience of being involved in the lawsuit but that she had to do it “for financial reasons.”

      I hadn’t seen this in what I’ve read so far – if this is for real (and the text actually is in evidence), that’s pretty damning for Jane Doe.

    48. Found it on thewhitebronco.com:

      Doe to LaVergne on October 10, 2015: [discussing joint payments] “Ok lets keep it at 90 then thats 6 months. Lol and i can even pay the whole couch off around xmas my dad gives me money not presents for xmas every year. then u just give me payment and since we finally filed against derrick we soon will be will be returning his tv and ill get us a Plasma.”

      Doe to LaVergne on October 10, 2015: “I feel bad in many ways for myself and Thomas Brandon and you. I’m the one that kept this lawsuit going and dragged Brandon with me. When I look back at all our conversations via text I told you multiple times my financial situation and how I could not let this lawsuit go because of this.”

      Yikes.

    49. But there sure is a he’s guilty/I can’t root for the Knicks crowd. Huge difference

      There certainly is a “regardless of the outcome of this lawsuit, the things that have come out about Derrick Rose and his attitude towards women are pretty awful and make me uneasy about rooting for him” crowd.

      This is why I can’t judge anything from the outside. Now, don’t forget that Rose had prior promiscuous relationship with her, and it’s quite possible that they’re both usually drunk or high, and he may have also shown up at her place late nights at other times as well, even when she’s asleep. I’m just not able to judge. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this type of behavior, so I will not slut-shame either party here.

      Out of curiosity, the only reason I’ve heard of people personally disposing their condoms is to prevent self-insemination. Any other reason?

      By Rose’s own admission, this was the first time he had shown up with two friends. So regardless of whatever had happened between Doe and Rose in the past, what happened this night was totally unprecedented. We know she didn’t consent via text or over the phone because we have those records. So she would’ve had to consent to having group sex having been drinking, recently awoken, and having rebuffed it in the past. Draw your own conclusions.

      Someone might personally dispose of a condom if they think it could be used as evidence of wrongdoing against them in the future. The chances of successful self-insemination with a used condom are minuscule and unlikely to be known about by someone who doesn’t know what the word “consent” means.

    50. Someone might personally dispose of a condom if they think it could be used as evidence of wrongdoing against them in the future. The chances of successful self-insemination with a used condom are minuscule and unlikely to be known about by someone who doesn’t know what the word “consent” means.

      Somehow I find myself in the position of defending Derrick Rose, which is really not where I want to be. But this is basically speculation upon speculation. I could easily speculate that it’s a common practice/knowledge amongst celebrities/professional athletes to make sure they take their genetic material with them on the off chance that someone tries to make a baby after the fact. That’s the kind of thing that seems much more likely in this setting than some criminal mastermind destroying evidence.

    51. Found it on thewhitebronco.com:

      Doe to LaVergne on October 10, 2015: [discussing joint payments] “Ok lets keep it at 90 then thats 6 months. Lol and i can even pay the whole couch off around xmas my dad gives me money not presents for xmas every year. then u just give me payment and since we finally filed against derrick we soon will be will be returning his tv and ill get us a Plasma.”

      Doe to LaVergne on October 10, 2015: “I feel bad in many ways for myself and Thomas Brandon and you. I’m the one that kept this lawsuit going and dragged Brandon with me. When I look back at all our conversations via text I told you multiple times my financial situation and how I could not let this lawsuit go because of this.”

      Yikes.

      The first one doesn’t exactly damn her. Returning the TV of a person you are suing is not exactly the behavior of an extortionist. If anything her dad spoils her. It’s not cool that she references that lawsuit in texts about money. But that is about it. I don’t see it coming off as if she is counting her money from some shakedown scheme.
      If they have texts bragging about having DRose and his boys pulling a train on her that would be another story.

    52. Not impressed. There’s enough on both sides to say “I don’t yet know and I reserve judgment for now.” The details of the case are very, very hazy and it’s impossible to know a million things. (How drunk was she? How drunk was he? How did they get in the apartment? How did she get the sex belt on? Why did she brag about it to her friends? Why did she thank Rose for the “good dick?” Was there any physical sign of struggle? Did she confide in a therapist, physician, anyone? How did she not get her hand burn checked? Did the next door neighbor hear anything?)

      I am NOT saying Rose is innocent. I’m saying the details are very, very hazy and I reserve judgment. Rose could still be a stand-up guy. I will not slut-shame her or rape-shame him.

    53. Honestly from all the evidence that’s available, it literally could go either way if it went to a trial. My guess is that this still gets settled and this is all posturing to get the settlement to where each side wants it. There’s just too much to be be lost on both sides.

      On his podcast, Jared Dubin and Dan Werly suggested that perhaps the adidas contract’s morals clause might be in jeopardy even if he settles. In that case then of course he’d go to trial.

    54. I’d like to hear the pro-Rose crowd on any of the following topics:

      -Qyntel Woods’ animal cruelty case
      -Michael Vick’s animal cruelty case
      -Kobe Bryant’s rape case
      -Greg Hardy’s domestic violence case

    55. He’s at worst a poor man’s Jared Jeffries, so no real downside.

      wow…that’s a serious blast from the past…whenever he was on the floor i was never sure whether to root like crazy or close my eyes and cringe in fear…

    56. I’d like to hear the pro-Rose crowd on any of the following topics:

      -Qyntel Woods’ animal cruelty case
      -Michael Vick’s animal cruelty case
      -Kobe Bryant’s rape case
      -Greg Hardy’s domestic violence case

      you remind me of Donald Trump

    57. I remind you of a racist, misogynistic bigot reality-TV star who swindles money out of associates and accidentally lied my way into a presidential nomination? Really?

    58. Yeah, Donald Trump is always challenging people to be more sensitive to issues involving the mistreatment of women

    59. Yeah, Donald Trump is always challenging people to be more sensitive to issues involving the mistreatment of women

      This is no crusade to be sensitive. This is a crusade to judge and name call. How is this board being sensitive to the mistreatment women? Is anyone here starting any kind of outreach program or something…no its just an attack Derrick Rose zone. How is that helping women?

    60. @67 yes…..also issues with the truth. There is no ” Pro-Rose” Crowd.

      Says the guy who changed his handle to “Drose for Prez”

    61. Says the guy who changed his handle to “Drose for Prez”

      yeah……because I liked the trade. And I was needling the people who hated it. Im Pro Rose the player not defendant. Nothing to do with the case. try again.

    62. -Qyntel Woods’ animal cruelty case
      -Michael Vick’s animal cruelty case
      -Kobe Bryant’s rape case
      -Greg Hardy’s domestic violence case

      What exactly do those other, unrelated cases have to do with this? Let me guess, every case of accused malfeasance on the part of an athlete is the same, is that it? I guess I missed the part of Michael Vick’s case where his dogs falsely claimed to have been roofied and later texted him “thanks for the good dick” when not bragging to their friends about the new TV they were going to buy with his money. There was actual, you know, evidence of Vick’s wrongdoing, which is why he served time. The Rose case is so short on evidence that there’s no way to even bring criminal charges let alone hope for a conviction. Try again homeboy.

    63. Welp, guess my comments are being moderated now. Let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good lynch mob.

    64. The comment moderation happens randomly. It doesn’t have to do with your opinions on rape trials.

      Any pro Phil, pro Rose, pro Knick comments will be dealt with severely on here. You’ve been warned.

      I think r/theredpill is missing your presence. Go back to there.

      What if I call you “Derrick Rose apologists?” It’s accurate, no?

    65. Moderations are automatic and are triggered by certain words. No ones making an attempt to silence discussion–I’m sure if Brian sees it he’ll update it accordingly. It’s happened to me before too.

      Anywho: it’s literally a single testimony that people are using as smoking gun evidence that she’s lying lol are you kidding me. Until someone can tell me why I shouldn’t believe someone’s rape claims when they’re only lying 8% of the time I’m going to continue to think that Rose is an idiot who has no idea what the word consent means.

    66. I was marked as spam for linking to a BBRef tiny-url. Don’t get all whiny and start trying to invoke your First Amendment rights (lol) on Knickerblogger.

    67. I just want to see if those who did this are honorable enough to admit you were wrong and apologize.

      Ugh. Apologize for hating rape culture? Are you serious.

      I know it’s been a long summer and all, but now that people are going to be starting to pay attention again, can we give reub the IAMWUTIAM and the Italian Stallion treatment. He is a zero factor on this site. Jon Abbey and Ted Nelson had to go, but reub lives on? Yeesh.

    68. just cancelled my cable because charter sucks. Has anyone found a way to watch the games online this year besides league pass?

      If you have an e-mail address you don’t mind posting on here I can give you a hook up.

    69. I have a serious question for those of you who have concluded that Rose is a rapist — if you were a public or semi-public figure (like maybe a college professor or something) who was accused of rape, and you steadfastly maintained your innocence, do you think that it would be right or fair for people to judge you based on snippets of information leaked by people who have a clear bias? Or would you want people to wait until all evidence is in before deciding that you are a rapist? Similar question for those of you who have concluded that the plaintiff is a liar.

    70. By the way , Jowles, my take on Michael Vick is that he committed a heinous crime, but he served his time in jail and he lost tens of millions of dollars in the process. He appears to have repented, grown as a person, and turned his life around. Also, to his credit, rather than declare bankruptcy and stiff his creditors, he used most of the money he earned the last few years of his career to pay back every penny that he owed, which I really admire. He has completely redeemed himself in my eyes. I’m curious — what’s your take?

    71. Cockie J, I’ll respond to your question, because nobody else did:
      -All those people did horrible things
      -Michael Vick at least served time, admitted what he did and made steps towards the right direction.

    72. @80
      Hey, thanks for the link. I do subscribe to League Pass, but not all Knicks games are available (why oh why aren’t NBA TV games on, for example?).

    73. Download Aceplayer and look around on Reddit. I don’t condone intellectual property theft, but people on Reddit have discussions on some of the NBA subs.

    74. There certainly is a “regardless of the outcome of this lawsuit, the things that have come out about Derrick Rose and his attitude towards women are pretty awful and make me uneasy about rooting for him” crowd.

      This.

    75. Football players often suffer from post concussion syndrome and I imagine PTSD. I mean, I broke my ankle playing cricket with middle schoolers and that was traumatic. I think anything a veteran or professional pugilist does needs to be in another legal/ moral category. I mean, those guys are taught to hurt each other. DRose is liable if he’s shown to be. Even if it’s your wife, you can’t blow by the safe word, dude. That being said, I never really trusted Kobe again after Colorado. There were some FACTS that came out regardless of the verdict. I’m gonna like who I like based on what I know to be true.

      On the concept of “end of the bench” people being forced into prominent roles AND THEN PLAYING WELL? Hey, Go Lancey! I think he’s a really good player. Knicks need to hold players accountable. It’s one of my biggest problems with the team. Guys play based on their price point. Lance forced his way into the rotation and was a big part of our most successful stretch.

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