Knicks Morning News (2016.08.12)

  • [NYTimes] AP Source: LeBron James Has Agreed to 3-Year Deal With Cavs
    (Friday, August 12, 2016 12:01:02 AM)

    LeBron James is going to hang around home for a while.

  • [NYTimes] Durant, Warriors to OKC on Feb. 11, Cleveland on Christmas
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 11:45:50 PM)

    Kevin Durant will return to Oklahoma City on Feb. 11 and join the Golden State Warriors for an NBA Finals rematch at Cleveland on Christmas.

  • [NYTimes] NBA: James to Stay With Cavaliers
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 11:15:30 PM)

    LeBron James has signed a new contract to remain with his hometown Cleveland Cavaliers for the next three seasons.

  • [NYDN] NBA releases schedule: Knicks will play 22 games on national TV
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:27:16 PM)

    The arrival of Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah, plus the emergence of Kristaps Porzingis, means the Knicks are back in the national spotlight.

  • [NYPost] Knicks schedule gets off to extremely rude start
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 2:27:13 PM)

    The new-look Knicks will get an extremely early test – the defending champions on opening night. The NBA released its schedule Thursday, and it includes the Knicks kicking off the season in Cleveland against LeBron James and the Cavaliers on Oct. 25, before returning home four nights later to host the Grizzlies on Oct. 29….

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks open 2016-2017 season in Cleveland
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 5:45:58 PM)

    The Knicks 2016-2017 schedule has been released, and New York will open its season in Cleveland against the reigning champions

  • [SNY Knicks] Melo’s Team USA leadership will benefit the Knicks
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 3:05:42 PM)

    Will Carmelo Anthony’s Team USA leadership carry over to the Knicks this season?

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose can match Irving’s impact on Melo
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:11:30 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony and Kyrie Irving have gelled together with Team USA in the Olympics. Can Derrick Rose, who has a similar style to Irving, and Anthony play well together with the New York Knicks?

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks open the regular season against LeBron James and the Cavs
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 8:24:05 PM)

    The new-look Knicks will open the 2016-17 regular season in Cleveland against LeBron James and the Cavaliers.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks 2016-17 NBA schedule
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 6:48:00 PM)

    Below is the Knicks’ full schedule for the 2016-17 NBA regular season:

  • [ESPN] Knicks get early test vs. Cavs, Christmas Day game vs. Celtics
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 7:20:32 PM)

    Knicks get early test vs. Cavs, Christmas Day game vs. Celtics

  • [ESPN] NBA schedule features holiday Finals rematch
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 5:10:33 PM)

    NBA schedule features holiday Finals rematch

  • [ESPN] Melo: Gold medals help ease sting if no NBA title
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:33:36 PM)

    Melo: Gold medals help ease sting if no NBA title

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    105 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.08.12)”

    1. With the acquisition of Derrick Rose, one of the game’s most prolific penetrators, he may be able to have the same impact on Carmelo Anthony’s scoring that Kyrie Irving is having as part of Team USA.

      If it were only about getting in the lane off the bounce, maybe. But Irving is a MUCH better ballhandler and a bigger threat as a shooter than Rose. Hopefully Rose’s midrange ability can have a similar effect, but I just don’t see it. Guys can sag back on Rose..can’t do it with Kyrie. Both guys can beat anyone off the dribble, but that’s where any comparison ends. Ah well..here’s to high hopes

    2. Man. Healthy Derrick Rose was such a good player. He was just as athletic as Russell Westbrook and could handle the ball like he was Kyrie Irving. I mean, he’s still probably the second best athlete at the position, but losing those inches on his vertical took his confidence from him. Derrick Rose has to either become Chauncey Billups or double his foul rate if he wants to be a good player in this league again.

    3. Arguably has the best body control in NBA history. The way he contorts and extends around the rim is something I’ve never seen before.

    4. Michael Jordan.

      LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! That made me think of the Linsanity meme where Lin was taking off the mask of his own face and it was Michael Jordan’s face underneath

      “gotcha bitch!!”

      I am sitting at my desk losin it over this one. Good one Jowles!

    5. From yesterday’s thread:

      Kuz look like he can play mediocre D?

      Kuz looks promising. His skills and play style seem like they have a good chance of translating over to the NBA.

      Both appear true. He got burned on a late drive to the hoop by Delfino. It looked like he just fell asleep on the play. Those are the types of plays that cap defensive ability at mediocre. On the other hand, while he isn’t an athletic freak, he had a couple of nice steals sparking a huge 3rd quarter run and otherwise played pretty tight D. He took some impossible shots and made them and looks to have legit range. He got to the line and made his free throws. He seemed to have a nose for the ball off the boards and got a bunch of fast breaks started. If he can learn to stay focused on the defensive end of the court, I think he’ll be a solid second unit force.

    6. Quote from Phil: “He (Fisher) was training individuals, which was really in tune with the so-called millennials, young people and young players who are primarily interested in themselves.”

      I’m not a millennial so I’m not personally offended, but WTF with this?

    7. More Phil: “You could also say that the season is a process, something like an extended group therapy session, or a vision quest. The ultimate group goal being to win a championship. This is a different managerial style, a different paradigm, that’s far from the norm in the NBA.”

      Jeezus what a bunch of pseudo-intellectual hippie TED Talk bullshit. Talking about his fucking paradigm and vision quests and shit. The guy is like a parody of himself.

    8. I like Phil..but sometimes it’s fun to get a few chuckles at Big Chief Triangle’s expense just to break the monotony. Sorry Phil…JVG acolyte here. I mean..I am a Knicks fan..

    9. Whoa, when did Chris Andersen team up with LeBron again? He’s old as hell but can do the dunk-and-board thing in limited minutes when Thompson’s out of the lineup.

    10. Now I see why most posters are so negative on this site. If you say something positive and hopeful about a player or the Knicks (which as a long time fan back to the glory days in the 70’s I am always hoping for the best ) , and it turns out to be wrong, there’s a chance it will be reposted 2 years later making you sound foolish. I can take it and admit again I was wrong about Andrea Fucking Bargnani. Lets move on to more current events like saying how much Rose and Noah will suck, how Melo is overrated and overpaid, and how much the Knicks will miss the terrific exploits of Calderon and Jerian Grant this year.

    11. Yo, but how wrong were you about Andrea Bargnani?

      All of this negativity is the result of avoidable “gambles.” If we were Blazers fans and lost Oden and Roy — two legit budding-superstars-cum-retirees — the negativity would be, like, “Oh man, luck is so raw, I hate everything.”

      But it’s got nothing to do with luck. Our “superstar” has been uninjured in all but one season. Our outta-nowhere scoring PG was let go, partly because of money and partly because of ego. Our draft picks were given up for just about every player we’ve ever traded for. There’s a reason that the negativity is deep. It’s fifteen years in the making.

    12. After reading the Phil Files and then clicking on Jared Dubin’s podcast, he did an exercise of taking the Knick roster BEFORE the Rose trade and re working it with the 35 M in available cap space.

      For all the Rose, Noah and Phil haters…. how would you have reconstructed the roster stipulating you can sign any FA that moved at the price they moved for????

    13. @19, Yeah but all of the long term move Phil Jackson made were for productive basketball players. Joakim Noah, Courtney Lee, Kyle O’Quinn, Robin Lopez, Kristaps Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez, and even the overpaid Carmelo Anthony are not doomsday moves and are moves that made us better. Phil has lost pretty much every trade he’s made though. Feel how you want about the Derrick Rose trade, but the last catastrophic move this team made was the Bargnani deal.

      I guess my point is even if Phil Jackson deserves a solid C or a D for his tenure here, that’s still better than the Fs everybody else deserved during the Dolan era. He has positioned us to have cap space every summer, he drafted Porzingis, and we have all of our first round picks going forward. If Phil is done today, it won’t take a sacrifice of a year or two to see real progress like the situation in Brooklyn where they can’t really rebuild until 2019. I wish we had a different GM, too, but at least he has an idea of what a good team looks like.

      Rose, Lee, Melo, Porzingis, and Noah is a line-up full of things like synergy and makes sense when you don’t consider things like statistics. The triangle, too, makes sense as its a system that promotes ball movement and less reliance on isolation and pick and rolls (no team has ever won a championship with P&R only ball like the Clippers play). The ideas are there but the statistics aren’t, and maybe our next GM will value those things. For the love of all things Porzingis, I sure hope so.

    14. @20, I honestly would have signed Hassan Whiteside and went on vacation. Truthfully I would have traded for Derrick Rose anyway and then signed Hassan Whiteside and probably Solomon Hill. Rose, Hill, Melo, Porzingis, and Whiteside would have been a lot of fun.

    15. @ 20
      I would have loved Whiteside on this roster. He’s young, and a monster rebounder/shot blocker. But on the flipside of it, if Phil had signed him, could we trust him to get value back for trading Lopez? The way I see it, getting Rose was probably the best return Phil was capable of getting for Lopez. So..I probably wouldn’t wouldn’t change a thing about the offseason. Of course, if Rose is healthy and playing well- then that move was a steal.

    16. @20

      I have 35mil:
      Kevin Durant 27mil
      Seth curry 3 mil
      Jennings 5 mil

      Lineup:
      Jennings
      Durant
      Melo
      KP
      Lopez

    17. @20, I honestly would have signed Hassan Whiteside and went on vacation. Truthfully I would have traded for Derrick Rose anyway and then signed Hassan Whiteside and probably Solomon Hill. Rose, Hill, Melo, Porzingis, and Whiteside would have been a lot of fun.

      Whiteside signed for 22.1 M this coming season. You have ~ 13 M left to fill out your roster. You have Zinger, Melo, Holiday, Rose, O’Quinn and Whiteside. You have 9 spots to fill…. have at it :-)

      Was Miami able to give Whiteside more than , say, Dallas because he was their player? If so, he likely wouldn’t have signed with the Knicks, either.

      Signing Solomon Hill gives you 8 roster spots to fill and < 2 million to work with :-) Your roster looks a little thin in the back court :-)

      Not so easy…..

    18. @20

      I have 35mil:
      Kevin Durant 27mil
      Seth curry 3 mil
      Jennings 5 mil

      Lineup:
      Jennings
      Durant
      Melo
      KP
      Lopez

      Unfortunately, Durant wouldn’t even give the Knicks a meeting. This exercise is meant to be a semi realistic viewing of alternative paths Phil could have chosen. Maybe I wasn’t clear about that.

      Now, if you want to not make the Rose trade and go with J. Grant, Jennings, Calderon and S. Curry at the point and keep Rolo, that is fine…. just fill out the rest of your roster (you have Melo, Oquinn, Zinger and compare to the current roster.

    19. Unfortunately, Durant wouldn’t even give the Knicks a meeting. This exercise is meant to be a semi realistic viewing of alternative paths Phil could have chosen. Maybe I wasn’t clear about that.

      Now, if you want to not make the Rose trade and go with J. Grant, Jennings, Calderon and S. Curry at the point and keep Rolo, that is fine…. just fill out the rest of your roster (you have Melo, Oquinn, Zinger and compare to the current roster.

      I’m putting Grant and Curry in the backcourt together as backups since Grant can guard the 2.

      And well if I have Durant I don’t really care who the other players are, let’s say Ndour, Baker, Plumlee, keep Kuzminskas at the room exception and whoever else is available for the min. I think that’s 13.

    20. I’m putting Grant and Curry in the backcourt together as backups since Grant can guard the 2.

      And well if I have Durant I don’t really care who the other players are, let’s say Ndour, Baker, Plumlee, keep Kuzminskas at the room exception and whoever else is available for the min. I think that’s 13.

      Signing Durant never was a real world possibility. If you want an entry in some fantasy league fine, but that’s not the idea of this exercise. Construct a “real world” Knick’s roster better than the one Phil assembled or with more upside/flexibility.

      Can’t trade Melo to Boston , either :-)

    21. Are you guys crazy? Lebron at $33 million.

      Since the Rose trade, I’ve read here that Phil let some damn good guards go, so I’m just keeping Calderon (great shooting), Grant (upside) and Galloway (upside).

      After that, who cares? Rings!

    22. If we say no KD because of course he wouldn’t sign here:
      Boban 7 mil (or Ezeli 7.5 mil)
      Curry 3 mil
      Hill 12 mil
      DJ Augustin 7.5 mil
      Willy H. 1.4 mil
      Nene 3 mil
      Bring LT and Galloway back with EB rights
      Kuzminskas room exception

      Lineup:
      Augustin/Grant/Calderon
      Hill/Curry/Galloway
      Melo/Kuzminskas/LT
      KP/Nene/Oquinn
      Lopez/Boban/Willy H.

      I should note that I don’t hate the Rose trade as long as Rose isn’t re-signed next year. Though instead of signing Noah I’d sign both Ezeli and Boban along with Seth Curry. Grab Hill instead of Lee. It’d be a similar team to the one we have, but much younger.

    23. Actually I do like the other scenario I mentioned at the end better.
      Curry 3 mil
      Hill 12 mil
      Jennings 5 mil
      Ezeli 7.5 mil
      Boban 7 mil
      Willy H. 1.4mil
      LT EB Rights
      Kuz room exception
      Baker or Ndour

      Rose/Jennings/Curry
      Hill/Holliday
      Melo/LT/Kuz
      KP/Oquinn
      Ezeli/Boban/Willy H.

      Let Rose go next year and go after Lowry, CP3, etc.

    24. If we say no KD because of course he wouldn’t sign here:
      Boban 7 mil (or Ezeli 7.5 mil)
      Curry 3 mil
      Hill 12 mil
      DJ Augustin 7.5 mil
      Willy H. 1.4 mil
      Nene 3 mil
      Bring LT and Galloway back with EB rights
      Kuzminskas room exception

      Lineup:
      Augustin/Grant/Calderon
      Hill/Curry/Galloway
      Melo/Kuzminskas/LT
      KP/Nene/Oquinn
      Lopez/Boban/Willy H.

      Fair enough….

      You realize you are starting Solomon Hill at the 2 where he only played 13% of his minutes last year and none in the playoffs and is an awful 3 point shooter. You are backing him up with 6-2 185 lb Curry

      Melo and Zinger better put up 60 ppg because that back court and Rolo aren’t putting up many.

    25. Actually I do like the other scenario I mentioned at the end better.
      Curry 3 mil
      Hill 12 mil
      Jennings 5 mil
      Ezeli 7.5 mil
      Boban 7 mil
      Willy H. 1.4mil
      LT EB Rights
      Kuz room exception
      Baker or Ndour

      Rose/Jennings/Curry
      Hill/Holliday
      Melo/LT/Kuz
      KP/Oquinn
      Ezeli/Boban/Willy H.

      Let Rose go next year and go after Lowry, CP3, etc.

      Again you are playing and awful shooter at the 2. Now you have Ezeli and Boban playing more minutes than they ever have and aren’t surrounded by hall of famers. I can’t imagine their advanced stats will be similar.

      Personally I like Noah >>>> Festus/Boban and Lee >>> Hill at the 2.

    26. @19 CJBTU2017 Yo, I was epically gold medal award winning moronicly wrong about Bargnani, which I’ve already admitted on this site. As you say it’s so easy to look it up I’m sure you or Rama could do so with ease if you care to. Some day I’ll be as smart as you about basketball and never be wrong about basketball, players, or the Knicks. In the meantime I guess I should go slit my wrists or run out onto the freeway because I was wrong about Andrea.

    27. For all the Rose, Noah and Phil haters…. how would you have reconstructed the roster stipulating you can sign any FA that moved at the price they moved for????

      I think this is a somewhat defeatist exercise. Yes, Phil constructed the best team he could for next year. But it came at the cost of years 3 and 4 (coincidentally, the years he, himself, isn’t under contract for?).

      Just because the Knicks had $35 million to play with didn’t mean they needed to invest it all in this season. There are other ways to building a team than just spending on Free Agents.

    28. Rondo was available on a much friendlier contract: 12M per with team/player options on the second year; either party could opt out. So, Rondo, Lee, Lopez, Jennings, Grant and Calderon would be better, cheaper and far more reliable than what Jackson got.

    29. Sure if you’re looking for issues with my lineups then those are definitely there. But the team isn’t significantly worse next year and doesn’t hemorrhage the following three.

      However, Hill is 5 years younger than Lee and shooting is an improvable area. And really .325 career 3p% isn’t awful. Not in the way that Rose’s .302 is awful. You’ll want Hill at the end of his contract, you won’t want Lee.

      Noah is better than Ezeli or Boban, but for how long? The 120 games he plays over a 4 season contract? And hey they might make a layup once in awhile! There numbers will drop, but I’m willing to pay two young guys 7 mil a piece to find out, not 20 mil for a 35 yo who we know is injury prone.

      If you’re worried about Seth Curry as a backup, well there’s LT and Galloway or Holliday depending on the version you go with. And Seth is a much better option than Sasha Vujacic when you consider Jennings and Rose’s health.

    30. There are other ways to building a team than just spending on Free Agents.

      Please proceed. I am interested an alternate POV’s here. Did you want them to go into full Philly mode this off season to make Melo demand a trade or something less?

    31. Noah is better than Ezeli or Boban, but for how long? The 120 games he plays over a 4 season contract?

      You realize Noah has played less than 64 games only twice in a 9 year career and one of them (last year) was due to a freak shoulder injury which no one reasonably expects to be a long term issue.

      And Hill sucks as a 3 point shooter if he is your starting 2 guard, and he’s playing out of position as a 2.

    32. Sign Lee, Billy H, Kuzwhatever, bring back Lance & Gallo and go home and blaze some trees and you’d have a team about as good as the one we have now.

    33. Supposedly Noah recruited Courtney Lee. If that’s true and Noah is only here because of the Rose trade, which was also out there, Lee may not have been obtainable absent the other moves

    34. The USMNT needs to stop with the shit already. Boogie with the 5 turnovers in 21 minutes? Sit his ass and play DJ. And he needs to rebound better.

    35. It’s just not a particularly well put together team. They’re just lucky that they have so much more talent than the other teams in the world. Otherwise, this would be 2004 all over again. The 2004 team was also poorly put together (and with a coach who wouldn’t play Lebron freakin’ James) but Manu and players of his ilk were in their prime back in 2004 and now they’re, well, you know, not. So the U.S. should still win gold, as there isn’t nearly the talent parity as there was back in 2004 (not counting the guys who weren’t allowed to play because Larry Brown was a douche). But yes, very oddly put together team this year.

    36. Here are the legit players on Team USA:

      Irving
      Durant
      Butler
      Green
      Jordan
      Lowry

      Here are the (relative) scrubs who mostly score a lot of pointz; note that “scrub” in this case has to do with top-tier international talent, not relative to NBA players, of which most of these guys are good but not great players. PPG ’16 rank in quotes:

      Anthony (13)
      DeRozan (8)
      Cousins (4)
      George (10)
      Thompson (12)
      Barnes (idk)

      Add a couple of scrub performances from the otherwise-good players, and baby, you’ve got a silver medal stew goin’.

      Seriously, this team might not win gold and everyone will wonder why. It’s because Team USA is still picking players based on points, not production.

    37. @48

      Well coach k and the Olympic coaching staff would mostly disagree with you based on the rotation…

    38. Jowles is a genius and Coach K is an idiot. If you don’r believe me, just ask Jowles.

      PS Butler, Lowry and Green stinking up Rio. Could they have been much worse off if they picked Stephenson, Rose and Gay?

    39. @48 fail on Paul George being a class below Jimmy Butler

      maybe if I said Caron, but I think it was accurate

    40. Jowles is a genius and Coach K is an idiot. If you don’r believe me, just ask Jowles.

      Maybe, but I also didn’t think that Bargnani was worthy of a roster slot in the NBA. You and several NBA masterminds did. So which one of us has more cred? The one who thought Bargnani could be a good player, or the one who knew he was terrible?

      You should just let me handle the basketball evaluations from now on.

    41. Not to add water to the flood, but Jowles and the ‘pessimists’ have been right about the Knicks like 95% of the time.

      Odds are the ‘pessimistic’ outlook for the upcoming season is fully warranted.

    42. @48 fail on Paul George being a class below Jimmy Butler

      I kind of see George as a wing in the mold of T-Mac, though not quite as good. Supersized SG’s with a smooth game that kinda catches you by surprise- and by the time you catch up they have 30 pts. Where Butler has the slight edge on George is he’s a better 2-way player. Maybe not as good offensively, but his effectiveness on defense makes up for it. And as much as 30 points sells tickets, it’s the defense that sustains success. So..Butler wins. I have no idear why George starts over Butler, much like I have NO IDEAR why Barnes is even on the team- despite the lack of some better players’ participation this year. Isn’t one insanely overrated player (Hairline Derozan) enough? They could have added the likes of John Wall/Isaiah Thomas/Kyle Korver(perhaps in place of the ineffective Klay Thompson)/JJ Redick/Gordon Hayward/Ryan Anderson even!! At least we would see more spirited play than a non-existent Thompson and Barnes.

    43. kev, my man, how long you been around here?

      I called the Amar’e signing bad. I was so right that the Knicks waived him before it was over. After the first year, he never played more than 1543 minutes for his max contract and was relegated to the bench by year three. It was a horrible, franchise-killing max contract.

      I derided the Carmelo trade (the Nuggets won 57 games the following year) and it’s turned out to have led to a few playoff series and a whole lot of losing. Regardless of what you think about Carmelo being a top-20 or top-50 player, the Knicks gutted their team for years to bring him in, and the W/L record speaks for itself. It was a bad trade.

      I called Chandler the best Knick since Ewing and the team promptly entered the dumpster when he left. The Mavericks managed to win 50 the following year despite having Monta Ellis as their leading minutes-player.

      I called Bargnani the worst trade since Curry despite many chirping birds telling me I didn’t know as much as the FO executives did about his upside, health or fit. I mentioned recently that Zach Lowe called it not just an inexplicable trade, but one that was immediately awful and had no redeeming value. He said that Masai Ujiri — I quote — should have been suspended from the league for fleecing the Knicks that badly. There was dissent on this board about the value of what the Knicks gave up and what kind of upside they got. Every single dissenter was unequivocally wrong.

      I have long lobbied to draft players like Kenneth Faried, Will Barton, Hassan Whiteside (yes, I wanted Whiteside to be a Knick in 2012, it’s on record), DeJuan Blair (who had three solid seasons relative to draft slot before falling off a cliff for whatever reason, still a great value to get that play from a rookie contract). Despite my calls for players like Scott Machado and Nick Fazekas, my track record is pretty g-d good when it comes to prospects.

      You weren’t here when I predicted the Knicks’ exact record three years in a row. The naysayers are well ahead in the standings, I assure you.

    44. And Hill sucks as a 3 point shooter if he is your starting 2 guard, and he’s playing out of position as a 2.

      As opposed to having Derrick Rose who sucks as a three point shooter and is out of position playing in the NBA? Or Joakim Noah who sucks making layups as a center? I’m not saying the team I put together is perfect, just that it’d end up being better for the future of the knicks than the team the Knicks currently have.

      Does anybody want to have Courtney Lee or Joakim Noah at the end of their contracts? Do people want to have the guys I listed at the end of their contracts? Think about that for a second.

    45. Is it really a point of contention that when it comes to the New York Knicks, pessimists have a far better track record of being correct than optimists? That’s pretty much essential to understanding the team’s existence.

    46. I called Chandler the best Knick since Ewing and the team promptly entered the dumpster when he left. The Mavericks managed to win 50 the following year despite having Monta Ellis as their leading minutes-player.

      Yeah but this isn’t a great example. The Mavs won 49 the year before when Monta played even more minutes. The Knicks weren’t exactly stellar with Chandler the year before either. You certainly didn’t predict Sam Dalembert falling off a cliff or Jose Calderon missing most of the season.

    47. Let’s play a game, Trump or Jowles?

      I’ll start –

      “I was so right”

      “I appreciate everyone congratulating me for being right”

    48. You certainly didn’t predict Sam Dalembert falling off a cliff or Jose Calderon missing most of the season.

      I absolutely did not. I predicted thirty-some wins that year, I believe. Although I do argue that the Carmelo trade had a ripple effect (one we’re still feeling, as there is a “win-now” mentality that cannot be shaken), I don’t think any reasonable poster predicted 17 wins.

      The year before… yeah, I was right. Best threads are the one’s where ruruland’s like, “Prove this isn’t a 50-win team.”

    49. “I was so right”

      “I appreciate everyone congratulating me for being right”

      Biggest difference is that I’m not a xenophobic, racist idiot who is a failed businessman with zero constructive ideas.

      Here are some platforms for Jowles 2016 (Asst. to the General Manager DRed ’16):

      1) Don’t trade away picks unless they’re (1) .
      2) Don’t sign or trade for players because of what they did in 2011.
      3) Don’t use cap space on mediocre or injured players, regardless of “fit.”
      4) Don’t give no-trade clauses to anyone not named Curry, Davis, Towns, LeBron or Durant. Even then, don’t unless you have to. Definitely don’t do it for players like Carmelo.
      5) Don’t sign known, below-average veterans over young, cheap players who performed well in college but were not drafted or signed after the draft.
      6) DRed for GM 2016.

    50. Naturally as optimists we look for the best case scenario but that doesn’t mean our overall view of the team is much different from the pessimist IMO. I’m sure each side could bring up individual instances where the other was wrong.

      It’s not like that optmists have been predicting Finals appearances each year.

    51. Yeah but this isn’t a great example.

      To go a little further here:

      It’s really hard to predict precipitous declines in individual players, much like how unexpected the “leaps” are from great players. Certainly you could look at LeBron in ’03 or Durant in ’07 and say, “Well, they could be future superstars,” more than you could other people. But given how many tremendous athletes play in the NBA and how very few of those athletes become true superstars by just making the extra rebound or FGM every ten possessions or so — just based on the numbers of players who achieve <.200 WS48 or <.300 WP48 — it's really hard to predict. It’s even harder when you realize that a player creating more wins means that other players’ contributions cause less wins, that wins are essentially zero-sum and there are nothing but variables in the equation, even if we can pretty accurately predict that the league as a whole will not likely jump from a 54 TS% to a 60 TS% year over year. There’s a lot to parse.

      What's easier is coming up with a set of soft rules at a given moment — like that teenage and late-thirties NBAers are generally unproductive players, or that rookie contracts have a far greater chance of providing extreme value than veteran contracts, or that the #31 pick in the draft is worth a hell of a lot more than the #30 pick, so trying to acquire picks #31-35 should be at least on the radar for a GM, at least until the opportunity cost says otherwise. That's the kind of thing I want to see the Knicks practice. As it stands, their practices seem contrary to what would create a great homegrown team.

    52. Holy shit. Jowles just called half of the us team scrubs. I don’t know why I am still amazed at the shit that comes out of your mouth.

    53. Anthony (13)
      Cousins (4)
      George (10)
      Thompson (12)

      A team starting with these 4 would be a top 2 seed in either conference. Damn I wish I was as smart as Jowels

    54. I saw Jowles post earlier and decided not to respond. It’s absurd to the point of being laughable. I’m sure he just wanted to bait everyone. It’s not possible that he meant that.

    55. I don’t claim to know everything about everything. I try to look at every move the team makes in a vacuum, and judge each move accordingly. I would rather this team be good than bad. But it drives me insane when a team I root for makes a move that I know is a disaster from the moment it is announced. The Bargs trade was like that. The Rose trade was like that. I’m a Mets fan– the Kazmir/Zambrano trade was like that. I’m a Raiders fan– the Carson Palmer for ten million draft picks trade was like that. So far I’m 100% on these kind of moves, the moves that seem to me like gobsmackingly stupid moves the moment they are announced, moves that seem like there must be some sort of mistake or typo in the news article that announces them. I’m pretty much always right about those. I have yet to be pleasantly surprised by one of those trades that seems obviously horrendous on its surface.

    56. Doug Chu really hates it when I make fellatio jokes (because of implicit homophobia, so ok) so I’ve mostly stopped. Truly, I will never tell any of you to hold my proverbial pocket. But otherwise, I’m not that bad. I just disagree with y’all on the little things, like the importance of individual TS%, the value of the offensive rebound, and the nature of analytic objectivity.

      So far I’m 100% on these kind of moves, the moves that seem to me like gobsmackingly stupid moves the moment they are announced, moves that seem like there must be some sort of mistake or typo in the news article that announces them. I’m pretty much always right about those.

      See, this is the thing. Although there are multiple people on this board who defended the Bargnani trade — which was the basketball equivalent of paying someone to light your house on fire — posters on our side still engage in basketball-related conversations with those pro-Bargs posters. I simply don’t see how you wouldn’t defend that trade, see what it wrought, and then not take a big step back and be like, “Oh shit, maybe those guys have some evidence to back up their claims.”

      Yet we continue to engage in the same conversations because no one really ever changes. You check out (e.g.) something like WP48, it doesn’t mesh with your ideas about basketball, and you defend them to the death while decrying WP48’s value. Despite being horrendously wrong about a clear example of a terrible basketball player, the baseline assumptions never change. That’s what frustrates me.

    57. Were people defending the trade or looking at the best case scenario?

      I don’t recall anyone(outside one or two guys) who actually liked the idea of us giving a 1st for Bargs.

    58. http://knickerblogger.net/a-rebuttal-why-the-andrea-bargnani-trade-is-a-great-move-for-the-knicks/#comment-440443

      http://knickerblogger.net/a-rebuttal-why-the-andrea-bargnani-trade-is-a-great-move-for-the-knicks/#comment-440451

      http://knickerblogger.net/a-rebuttal-why-the-andrea-bargnani-trade-is-a-great-move-for-the-knicks/#comment-440454

      http://knickerblogger.net/a-rebuttal-why-the-andrea-bargnani-trade-is-a-great-move-for-the-knicks/#comment-440459

      http://knickerblogger.net/a-rebuttal-why-the-andrea-bargnani-trade-is-a-great-move-for-the-knicks/#comment-440465

      http://knickerblogger.net/a-rebuttal-why-the-andrea-bargnani-trade-is-a-great-move-for-the-knicks/#comment-440495

      http://knickerblogger.net/a-rebuttal-why-the-andrea-bargnani-trade-is-a-great-move-for-the-knicks/#comment-440495

      http://knickerblogger.net/on-andrea-bargnani-draft-picks-and-the-importance-of-process/#comment-440674

      I think this a better trade than most think. At the end of the day, we are trying to win a championship now and we have very little flexibility to enhance the roster/get rid of bad contracts beside this trade.

      1. We basically traded a 2016 1st round 20s pick for Bargnani and cap space in 2015

      2. We no longer need chis copeland since the Barg will provide his offense, has more potential, And is younger.

      3. We can now use the mini mid level to sign a either a quality backup point guard or an interior defender/rebounder.

      4. If we use the mini mid level for a quality big, then we can use the vet min to round out other needs such as backup pg. or if we used mini mid level for quality pg, then we use vet min for a big.

      If this isn’t “defending the trade,” I don’t know what is.

    59. What’s most infuriating about the Bargnani/Rose/etc. moves is it really feels like the Knicks come up with creative ways to do stupid things. I’m pretty damn jaded as a Knicks fan, and even I was not at all worried that the team would trade two assets for Derrick freakin’ Rose. In fact when I initially heard they were in discussions for Rose, my first thought was to wonder what goodies Chicago would have to send our way for us to accept what I was sure could only be a salary dump. The Knicks literally make sure I’m never pessimistic enough.

    60. To go a little further here:

      It’s really hard to predict precipitous declines in individual players, much like how unexpected the “leaps” are from great players. Certainly you could look at LeBron in ’03 or Durant in ’07 and say, “Well, they could be future superstars,” more than you could other people. But given how many tremendous athletes play in the NBA and how very few of those athletes become true superstars by just making the extra rebound or FGM every ten possessions or so — just based on the numbers of players who achieve <.200 WS48 or <.300 WP48 — it's really hard to predict. It’s even harder when you realize that a player creating more wins means that other players’ contributions cause less wins, that wins are essentially zero-sum and there are nothing but variables in the equation, even if we can pretty accurately predict that the league as a whole will not likely jump from a 54 TS% to a 60 TS% year over year. There’s a lot to parse.

      What's easier is coming up with a set of soft rules at a given moment — like that teenage and late-thirties NBAers are generally unproductive players, or that rookie contracts have a far greater chance of providing extreme value than veteran contracts, or that the #31 pick in the draft is worth a hell of a lot more than the #30 pick, so trying to acquire picks #31-35 should be at least on the radar for a GM, at least until the opportunity cost says otherwise. That's the kind of thing I want to see the Knicks practice. As it stands, their practices seem contrary to what would create a great homegrown team.

      Well I’m not really sure how any of this addresses what I was saying, but we traded Ray Felton and Tyson Chandler for two WP superstars and that somehow led you to predict a huge dropoff in wins for the knicks? By any statistical measure the combination of Calderon and Dalembert were better than the combination of Felton and Chandler.

    61. @64 — did you really call a guy who has amassed billions of dollars a “failed businessman?” That may just be the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever posted — and that is really saying a LOT.

    62. Well I’m not really sure how any of this addresses what I was saying, but we traded Ray Felton and Tyson Chandler for two WP superstars and that somehow led you to predict a huge dropoff in wins for the knicks? By any statistical measure the combination of Calderon and Dalembert were better than the combination of Felton and Chandler.

      By the time of the trade Dalembert and Calderon were 33.

      Was just a matter of time for the dropoff to happen. The cliff was right there.

    63. How about we agree to move on from the Bargnani trade? Yes, Jowles, you were right, bad trade, I was one of those who thought it might work out. But it was not a franchise-killing deal, we gave up a #1 which may or may not pan out for Toronto. Would I like to have that pick back? Of course, Toronto basically stole it from us.

      How much different would our team look like if we hadn’t made that deal? Not much.

    64. By the time of the trade Dalembert and Calderon were 33.

      Was just a matter of time for the dropoff to happen. The cliff was right there.

      Tyson Chandler was 31 and coming off a season in which he missed 27 games and had a severe drop in production. Was it not a matter of time before he dropped off as well? It was a gamble keeping him and a gamble trading him.

    65. How about we agree to move on from the Bargnani trade? Yes, Jowles, you were right, bad trade, I was one of those who thought it might work out. But it was not a franchise-killing deal, we gave up a #1 which may or may not pan out for Toronto. Would I like to have that pick back? Of course, Toronto basically stole it from us.

      But the point is that the Bargnani deal had virtually no chance of working out. Saying “he has upside” doesn’t make it so. There is no team in the league — not even the Spurs — that can make him a good player.

      And Jakob Poeltl might not be the next Towns, but he’s probably not the next Anthony Bennett. AND he’s on a rookie-scale deal, which means that at worst, you waive him a la Bennett and move on. The Knicks got worse immediately with Bargnani and then gave up the chance of getting better. Plus the two second-rounders, which basically double the fuck-up.

      And the point I’m trying to make by dragging up a 3-year-old thread is that it didn’t take a rocket scientist to see that Bargnani was the worst player in the NBA. Yet still, the very same posters who defend the Rose deal are the ones who were wrong about the surest outcome we’ve seen in fifteen years of the Knicks being among the worst franchises in professional sports.

      These are the posters that continue their stats denialism. This is what I’m talking about.

      re: Chandler, that horse has already been beaten. I don’t mind wanting to deal him after his age 31 season, but he had a monster season with Dallas before starting his slip in Phoenix. Given the circumstances, I’m fine with the move. I simply take issue with the posters who say that he wasn’t the center of the Knicks’ success during his tenure here. They, again, are the very same posters who laud Rose, defend Bargnani, and generally defer to Phil Jackson at every turn.

      Whatever.

    66. How much different would our team look like if we hadn’t made that deal? Not much.

      I’ve said this here a million times, but it bears repeating again: it was the opportunity cost that was so heinous. First round draft picks, even those with swap rights attached to them, are valuable. That pick could have been traded for just about any player in the NBA and it would have been better than trading for Bargnani. Or the Knicks could have held onto the pick, and could have drafted guys like Domantis Sabonis, Thon Maker, the more talented Hernangomez brother or somebody else. Instead they frittered away the pick and got nothing except some pretty funny GIFs. Because “the East is big, man.”

      Wouldn’t this team look a whole hell of a lot better with Domantis Sabonis on the roster?

    67. The Rose trade is terrible for the same reason. The Knicks could have gotten something of value for Robin Lopez and Jerian Grant. Instead they got, once again, a player who was statistically one of the very worst players in the NBA.

      “But it’s not a franchise killer, there’s only one year left on Rose’s contract.” Which, okay, sure: in and of itself, the Rose deal is maybe not a franchise killer. The idiotic mentality that leads to the Rose trade happening is what is the franchise killer, the total lack of understanding of the concept of opportunity cost.

    68. But can we discuss the possibility of Porzingis and Noah being an excellent defensive and rebounding front court?

      The Knicks are going to be a bottom 10 offense. For sure. The Rose trade was bad because we took way too much risk on for two assets (Justin Holiday and a 2nd rounder) that have a low likelihood of developing into key players for us. The 2nd rounder could be Draymond Green or he could be Cleanthony Early, and even if he does become a great baller it was still dumb to take that risk in the first place.

      I think the jury is out on Rose. He was horrible when he was last playing ball but he’s as healthy as he’s been since he tore his ACL in 2012. He was also overrated in those years, but he was still a top point guard. I don’t think he’ll necessarily be good, but I pray for it all the same.

      I do, however, believe Noah and Lee are upgrades over Afflalo and Lopez. I think the Knicks can be as good as Vogel’s Pacers or the Gasol led Grizzlies because they have a great defensive front court and some really good per minute rebounders slated to receive minutes. I value WP48 and WS/48 very much, but I also value the four factors enough to know that we have a shot at being good if we limit turnovers and out rebound everybody. Noah, Porzingis, Hernangomez, Melo, and O’Quinn give us a good chance to be a good rebounding team on both ends. I’m 50/50 on the free throw rate and I’m like 75% sure we’ll be good at not turning it over and not fouling. We were league worst at generating turnovers and I don’t think that will be the case next year.

      So I’m optimistic because there’s a blueprint for the Knicks. We have to be elite on defense and value our possessions like nobody’s business. We’re going to miss a lot of shots, but there’s still a chance if that’s the only way we’re wasting possessions.

    69. I think the jury is out on Rose. He was horrible when he was last playing ball but he’s as healthy as he’s been since he tore his ACL in 2012.

      I agree with most of that post, but shooting is the most important of the four factors and Derrick Rose is not going to start passing up shots that he’s been famous for the last fifteen years of his basketball life. That knee is going to have become bionic to get back to the slightly above-average, ultra-high volume he got a max contract for all those years ago. Jury’s out, but it’s looking real bad for him. And also that civil case.

    70. Rose and Bargs are apples and oranges. My hope (hope, not prediction) was that Bargs would be like Blatche, who also sucked but then played decently for the Nets. But after a couple of preseason games, I could see why he sucked and that there was no hope for him.

      With Rose, I’m not hoping. I’m predicting he will play at least well for us, and possibly very well. There, I said it. We’re all on the record now. Let’s see what happens.

    71. All predictions are baseless.

      A player could improve vastly or decline vastly for a great number of reasons that we have no idea about

    72. I’m tired of these old topics. I’m excited as hell to see what Kuz and Billy bring to the table.

      Kuz and Rose could make us a dynamic fast break team. Something we haven’t seen in ages

    73. All predictions are baseless.

      A player could improve vastly or decline vastly for a great number of reasons that we have no idea about

      This nonsense is one of the reasons we keep recycling the same dumbass arguments.

    74. Ignoring the reasons that lots of folks, including some pretty smart and knowledgeable ones, have repeatedly put forth in support of a Rose resurgence is, well, ignorant.

    75. This nonsense is one of the reasons we keep recycling the same dumbass arguments

      No it’s not. Obviously some predictions are based on empirical data from past performance. But you can never predict future performance 100%. That was my point. No one could have predicted that after Melo came to NY in 2011 that he would be a 40+ percent shooter from 3. All of a sudden he was just raining 3s.

      My point is that you have a better chance on predicting it but you are not always gonna b right. So what I meant to say is that predictions are pointless not baseless. That was the wrong word to use

    76. My point is that you have a better chance on predicting it but you are not always gonna b right.

      Yeah, well going with empirical evidence is a much better bet than “this guy is on the Knicks now so I now believe that he is awesome.” Which is what some people tend to do around here.

    77. Not true for most, certainly not me. I was not the least bit optimistic going in to the last two years. DWill far exceeded my very low expectations (ahem, based on advanced stats), and I gave Phil his due credit after the fact.

      I think the optimists are more apt to say, “hey, I wouldn’t have made that deal, but I see the logic in it and am willing to withhold judgment at least until a couple of games into the preseason.” The pessimists say, “Why wait? We have enough data to definitively judge the transaction right now.” Well, the stats were WAY wrong about DWILL and Lance last year, and the team was the talk of the NBA at 23-23 before Melo’s freak ankle injury. Of course, the pessimists have way too much arrogance to acknowledge this, and will carp that the bottom DID fall out and the team wound up right where we said they would.

    78. Jowles, why don’t u use B-R instead of that bs site thhat no one cares about to suit your petty narrative? If u did, ud see that DWILL had a career year in TS, WS48 and PER. But yeah, whatever.

    79. Nah, because they have him playing as a 4, so that dings him for his shit rebounding/defense numbers relative to an average big man.

    80. bruh if you’re using PER over any other statistic, u dead wrong

    81. PER didn’t rate Ronnie Brewer a superstar. I’d immediately disqualify any rating system that called him anything other than the horrible scrub that he was.

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