Knicks Morning News (2016.08.11)

  • [NY Newsday] Rio Olympics: Carmelo Anthony becomes USA’s top scorer in win over Australia
    (Wednesday, August 10, 2016 9:16:33 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony is the most prolific scorer in U.S. men’s Olympic basketball history.

  • [NYPost] Jeff Hornacek’s daughter scores broadcasting gig
    (Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:07:05 AM)

    Jeff Hornacek isn’t the only member of his family who nabbed a hot new job this year. Digital-first sports platform 120 Sports announced Wednesday Abby Hornacek, Jeff’s daughter, would be joining its roster as a new contributor. “I have been in and around sports my entire life and understand the passion and level of interactions fans…

  • [NYTimes] Basketball: Unbeaten U.S. Survive Australia Scare
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 2:39:32 AM)

    Carmelo Anthony came to Team USA’s rescue with a record-breaking effort on Wednesday as the defending Olympic basketball champions beat Australia 98-88 in a thrilling encounter to extend their overall winning streak to 20 games.

  • [NYTimes] Basketball: Easy Win Brings Tough Question for Team USA
    (Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:21:28 PM)

    The U.S. women’s basketball team faced their sternest test of the Rio Games and tougher questions after beating Serbia 110-84 on Wednesday to remain on course for a sixth successive gold.

  • [NYTimes] Games Bus Hit by Gunfire, No One Seriously Hurt: Witnesses
    (Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:21:28 AM)

    A bus carrying journalists at the Rio Games was hit by gunfire on a highway between Olympic venues on Tuesday, witnesses said. No one was seriously injured in the incident.

  • [NYDN] Abby Hornacek won’t be following Jeff to New York
    (Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:16:30 AM)

    Jeff Hornacek’s broadcaster daughter is going to co-host a nightly highlight reel show for 120 Sports.

  • [ESPN] Thursday’s Knicks Links: Carmelo Anthony leads Team USA past Australia
    (Thursday, August 11, 2016 5:53:33 AM)

    Thursday’s Knicks Links: Carmelo Anthony leads Team USA past Australia

  • [ESPN] Reaction to Carmelo Anthony staving off Australia upset
    (Wednesday, August 10, 2016 8:10:07 PM)

    Reaction to Carmelo Anthony staving off Australia upset

  • [ESPN] Melo passes LeBron as U.S.’ top Olympic scorer
    (Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:29:14 PM)

    Melo passes LeBron as U.S.’ top Olympic scorer

  • [SNY Knicks] Carmelo Anthony becomes Team USA’s all-time leading scorer
    (Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:45:55 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony became Team USA’s all-time leading scorer during the team’s game with Australia on Wednesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Should the Knicks look to add one more veteran?
    (Wednesday, August 10, 2016 8:21:16 AM)

    As the Knicks sign a handful of young guns to partially guaranteed deals, it’s worth noting that the team’s final roster spot is seemingly up for grabs.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    143 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.08.11)”

    1. Re: the Olympic Melo discussion from last night — great quote from him last night post-game:

      Last night he was asked what’s different in the Olympics. “In this situation,” he said. “It doesn’t call for me to put the team on my back. To have to create something with the ball in my hands every single play. I can just take my time, pick my spots, and play off of the guys on my team.”

      My favorite Melo memories from that great 2012-13 season were of the Felton/Tyson high-PNR, the defense collapsing on Tyson, then the kickout to Melo for 3 or drive against the closeout from the left wing. He was just money from that starting position. We saw that a bit yesterday.

      In my mind there really isn’t any doubt that he plays better as a secondary ballhandler next to a penetrating point guard who can get him the ball in specific spots. But then again, that pretty much applies to every player in the league, and why Chris Paul is so clearly a top 5 player.

    2. Speaking of Olympic Melo – cynically speaking, I’ve always hoped that he would take the summer off to rest rather than go through the grind of the Olympics (played 35 minutes last night!) – but my guess is that he really just enjoys playing off the ball like said in his quote above.

      The other cynical way to look at his participation is this — based on his NBA career, he’s probably a borderline HoF player at this point, and I’m sure he realizes that. Some here will disagree about his candidacy, fine. But like Mike and Mike said yesterday, it’s the Basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame. Between his 1 year at Syracuse and now basically being the most prolific Olympic player ever, he’s probably a shoe-in when it’s his turn to be considered.

    3. “I’ve always hoped that he would take the summer off to rest”
      I never really understood this argument, just like I’ve never really understood the argument that guys might get hurt playing in the Olympics. NBA players don’t “rest” during the summer. Most of them work out several hours every day, including playing pickup basketball (sometimes on asphalt courts at Rucker Park) all the time. In most Olympic games, Melo plays about 20 minutes or less — often in games that aren’t much more than glorified pickup games. I’m not sure how that is any “worse” or more exhausting than working out for hours every day.

    4. I also think it gives him the chance to win another Olympic gold to supplement his NCAA chp.
      Didn’t Kyrie Irving state that Olympic Gold=NBA chp?
      Highly unlikely to get the NBA chp.

    5. playing PG13 instead of Butler or Klay makes for interesting matchup.. perhaps Lillard or Dwight should have made the team instead of Barnes
      go Boomers

    6. Found an interesting article about Rose’s elite bank shot shooting.
      http://www1.vantagesports.com/Articles/article_view/VsHyoCkAACgA2YLQ

      Rose ranks first on the season in total point scored with jumpers made off the glass, having scored 54 points total on those shots. No one else has scored over 30 points, and tied for second are DeMar DeRozan and Gordon Hayward with 26 points each. On bank shot jumpers, Rose is shooting 49.1 percent from the field, which is superbly efficient compared to his typical shooting

      A little something for the guys who think he can’t adjust his game to compensate for the decreased athleticism. Also he really needs to get to the FT line more.

    7. Melo *is* a very good player. He is not a superstar because he needs, as he says, the right group of players in order to shine. Superstars shine on their own and make everyone better around them.

      Melo is more Allen Iverson than Kobe Bryant: two very different levels of skill. All good, but clearly different.

    8. Um. Melo is an absolute lock to get in to the Hall of Fame. Not the least of which being pointz+Knicks type things. But don’t discount being one of the best ever Olympics basketball players, which is huge by itself.

      – NCAA champion
      – 6x all NBA selection
      – 9x All Star
      – Scoring champ 2016
      – Soon to be 4x olympic medalist, a record
      – Olympics: points scored in a game record
      – Olympics: 3 point FGM in a game record
      – Olympics: a few other records including most 3 pts attempted, etc
      – Other records, see list here

    9. Don’t discount Melo just because he needs a teammate better than JR Smith. Plenty of other good players have had trouble with very poor teammates.

      If you think that Melo should bring this crapbag to the finals “like LeBron,” LeBron has never had as poor teammates as Melo. EVER. (2007 is the closest, and he had 8 players on that team with TS>525, 6 players with WS/48 >135. Melo’s MOST successful Knicks team in 2013 also had 8 players TS>525, 3 players with WS>135, BUT 3 players in the TS column and 2 in the WS column played less than 30 games, the remainder being Melo)

    10. Re: the Olympic Melo discussion from last night — great quote from him last night post-game:

      Last night he was asked what’s different in the Olympics. “In this situation,” he said. “It doesn’t call for me to put the team on my back. To have to create something with the ball in my hands every single play. I can just take my time, pick my spots, and play off of the guys on my team.”

      Isn’t this the problem or burden with Melo depending on your POV? Implicitly he is saying if I am not playing with A list stars, I am going to want to or feel like I have to do it all.

    11. Melo is not LeBron. No one is disputing that. But he’s very, very good at what he does well, and the Olympics gives him a chance to focus on that. You could say that he is the ultimate complementary player, but has always been in the role of ball-dominant high-volume scorer. He can’t be the brain of a contending team.

    12. I think he just needs a consistent second scorer and a league average PG to take that burden off him. That doesn’t seem like too much too ask.

    13. http://harvardsportsanalysis.org/2015/06/the-kobe-assist-how-lebrons-misses-might-be-the-cavs-best-shot/

      I know the “Kobe assist” is not a popular concept here, but it would be nice if there were better stats that quantified intangible things like offensive rebounds per missed shot, or fouls committed per minute that a player is on the floor. This article was written during the 2015 finals, when LeBron shot a ghastly .431 eFG% at an unheard of usage of 41%.

    14. @14 that’s what he needs to be at his thus-far statistical best, but to be a statistical superstar (>.200 WS48), he needs more.

    15. 10-15 years ago Melo would have been a near shoe in for the HOF. Post statistical revolution it’s a bit less clear. Sure, most people still look at ppg and championships(which is still a big minus for Melo), but to ignore the seeping in to the general public (or at least those who will vote) of offensive efficiency is silly.

      Neither does Melo have the best public perception. He’s done a lot to change that in the last few months, but many people still see him as a me first ball hog. Amare once said that there was no chance Melo was in the top 5 of players who assisted Amare, though Melo was. If Melo keeps up his activism work and supporting team USA I think that really does help his chances for the HOF (whether or not it should).

    16. The problem with Melo is one of perception and unrealistic expectations: a lot of people compare him to better players and expect him to play like a superstar only because he has a superstar salary. A more objective assessment would reveal the truth: Melo has been very consistent in his production throughout his career. He has given the Knicks exactly what any reasonable basketball fan should expect.

      But people expected and (incredibly enough) expect more from him. That’s their problem, not his.

      Want a better player? Get a better player.

      Same thing will happen with Rose. He will give the Knicks what should be expected: great risk of injury and subpar production for a player earning 21M per. Those who expect more will have nobody to blame but themselves for not acknowledging the writing on the wall.

      In short, the problem with these players is that lots of fans expect production matching their salaries, but that’s not their fault. Blame those willing to pay diamond prices for excellent cubic zirconias.

    17. Eh, we can discuss it.

      His Syracuse hype and high volume scoring made him an All-Star, an All-NBA selection, etc. Those accolades snowball. See: Derek Jeter’s multiple Gold Gloves.

      It’s like calling James Dolan a great businessman because he inherited billions of dollars and didn’t flush it all away. Carmelo’s a good player, but he will never even be close to the best players of his generation. There’s nothing wrong with that — as Theo said, the problem is with the people who think he’s supposed to be the 1b to LeBron or Durant.

    18. @17

      Melo’s getting into the HOF regardless of whether or not statistical analysis is being used by voters now. There’s no debate to be had about that outcome. Whether you agree or disagree is separate, but I think his level of play has been very good throughout his career even if he falls short of the high end statistical outputs of other great players during his career. Longevity and consistency matter a lot.

    19. Melo was 8th in the NBA in win shares from 2011 to 2014.

      That’s a level of production that no “reasonable” fan on this board expected, the kind of production “reasonable” fans still don’t give him credit for.

    20. “:..the problem is with the people who think he’s supposed to be the 1b to LeBron or Durant.”

      Who fucking says that? No one.

    21. Who fucking says that? No one.

      no one here, but plenty of WFAN 880 AM mike in the morning call from my commute ass dudes have been of that belief for years. That hasn’t changed.

    22. “no one here, but plenty of WFAN 880 AM mike in the morning call from my commute ass dudes have been of that belief for years. That hasn’t changed.”

      I think there’s a radio demographic out there that’s out of touch and you can hear that anywhere in the country about any major team, but that sentiment is rarely found on any high-traffic message board and certainly not ANYWHERE in the media.

    23. “:..the problem is with the people who think he’s supposed to be the 1b to LeBron or Durant.”

      “Who fucking says that? No one.”

      “Melo was 8th in the NBA in win shares from 2011 to 2014.”

      hmmm

    24. It’s the basketball hof. Quite a few of its members NEVER played in the NBA. And there’s a long list of NBA hofers whose careers have paled in comparison to Melo’s by virtually any measure.

    25. “elite-bank shot shooting”

      “olympics melo”

      y’all literally killing me

      Thats cute, I wasn’t posting it for you though. It was in response to the commenters who say he can’t adjust his game post injury.

    26. Comparing posters on this board to the average Joe calling into sports radio is a sin.

      Whether I agree with your analysis or not, I respect it. What I hear on radio is mind-numbing idiocy – and I’m talking about the hosts, too.

      I’m not sold on Melo for the HOF. I think he needs a ring and a few more very productive years.

    27. “I’m not sold on Melo for the HOF. I think he needs a ring and a few more very productive years.”

      I’m not sure you’re familiar with the subject.

      This isn’t like the NFL HOF.

    28. Damn I just want the Knicks to play games already.

      Not me, I prefer the endless back and forth on whether Derrick Rose is a) the worst PG in the NBA, b) not really that bad or c) comeback player of the year.

      Can’t get enough of that.

    29. Melo *is* a very good player. He is not a superstar because he needs, as he says, the right group of players in order to shine. Superstars shine on their own and make everyone better around them

      I agree with you in the sense that Melo is a star player with superstar talent, but not the results. Where we defer is the “superstars shine on their own part”. Whereas Melo has always shone individually, he only recently started tangibly making players better around him. I believe that a player can be a superstar without making players around him better the way folks expect them to. There are multiple ways a player can make others better. Most people attach that phrase to players who share the ball. But a player can also make other better by covering and communicating on defense, being a prolific scorer who draws the defense’s attention, or just by being vocal, teaching, and trusting in and encouraging his teammates.

      So, one could argue that Melo does make players better in his own way. He checks off two of those boxes..now. Melo’s biggest problem when it comes to perception, is the fact that he came in with LeBron. LeBron has always been the guy that did all 4 things I mentioned. Melo’s just coming into his own as the type of leader everyone wishes he would be. Honestly, does a guy like Durant get raked over the coals the way Melo does? They’re essentially the same TYPE of player. Both are prolific scorers. Both don’t set the world on fire defensively, although Melo is a much better rebounder. Where KD is different from Melo is KD has always trusted his teammates and moved the ball. I am in no way saying that Melo is as good as or better than Durant. I’m just saying there’s not much difference. We should feel lucky to have a player of Melo’s caliber. He’s not ideal as the alpha, but he is a great player in his own right.

    30. Can we just, like, scream STRAWMAN every time someone on here completely misinterprets another’s point of view? It’s like, we’re always dark gray vs light gray, but people make it like it’s black vs white.

      No one here is saying Rose is “comeback player of the year.” No one here is saying Melo is supposed to be the “1b to Lebron and Durant.”

      Some people are saying Melo is used inefficiently, and some people saying Rose may be better than last year given type/time since injury.

    31. Honestly, does a guy like Durant get raked over the coals the way Melo does? They’re essentially the same TYPE of player. Both are prolific scorers. Both don’t set the world on fire defensively, although Melo is a much better rebounder. Where KD is different from Melo is KD has always trusted his teammates and moved the ball. I am in no way saying that Melo is as good as or better than Durant.

      Yup. Durant and Melo share more than Melo and Lebron. Both score well. Durant is better offensively and defensively, and it’s a wash in rebound rate, I think.

      But Durant trusted his teammates because he had freakin’ Westbrook and Harden, as well as others, all of whom would be better than Melo ever had.

      Does anyone doubt that Westbrook/Jackson/Melo/Ibaka/Adams would do, like, really really well?

    32. Melo needs better support and weaker opposition, as evidenced by his play in the Olympics. He said it himself. Otherwise he “can’t trust his teammates” and starts shooting like crazy, specially with the Knicks down 5 with 3 minutes to go. We’ve seen that movie so many times and the outcome is the same: Melo misses badly, smiles his awkward smile of shame/resignation and the Knicks lose by 12.

      Better players tend make the right move the majority of time, no matter who plays next to them. That’s how they make their teammates better: make the correct play and let the chips fall where they may.

      If the justification is that Melo has a better chance of scoring than Porzingis or Jennings, for example, then he (Melo) should be the only one taking shots whenever he is on the court!

    33. Melo needs teammates who can adequately help provide either scoring opportunities or spacing.

      He hasn’t had much, if any, of either the last 3 years.

      The Olympics showcases his spot-up prowess, the same he had alongside the penetration threat of Chandler/Felton.

      It also demonstrates his willingness to go away from isolations when there is playmaking beside him.

      His tendencies change with those factors in the NBA, it’s just far more pronounced in the Olympics.

      Melo is one of the better spot-up shooters, as well as post-up, isolation and pick and roll scorers AGAINST NBA competition.

      So fuck off with the idea that he needs inferior competition.

    34. Ginobili has been a much better player than Carmelo. Can we all agree on that?

      Honestly, does a guy like Durant get raked over the coals the way Melo does? They’re essentially the same TYPE of player. Both are prolific scorers. Both don’t set the world on fire defensively, although Melo is a much better rebounder. Where KD is different from Melo is KD has always trusted his teammates and moved the ball.

      Where KD is different from Melo is that Durant has a career TS% of 60.5% and Carmelo has a 54.5%. I cannot overstate the enormity of that gap.

      It is the difference between Golden State’s #1 TS% and the Orlando Magic’s #20 TS%. There is no need to endlessly criticize a volume scoring player who has a CAREER true shooting percentage higher than the league’s best offense, and who ranks #12 in all-time TS% while #9 in USG%. He is a rare, magical unicorn and there is no need to complain about his game. Carmelo is not. That’s the difference.

    35. I’m not sure you’re familiar with the subject.
      This isn’t like the NFL HOF.

      I’m pretty familiar with it but you might be correct that the NBA HOF is more lax than the NFL or MLB HOF. Still, he’s border-line in my view.

    36. Better players tend make the right move the majority of time, no matter who plays next to them. That’s how they make their teammates better: make the correct play and let the chips fall where they may.

      You mean like when he drew the defense to him late in a game just a few months ago and passed to a wide-open Calderon in the corner who bricked the game-winner? Like that?

      You can’t have it both ways: either his teammates sucked and that’s why the Knicks lost a lot of games and why Melo took a lot of shots, or his teammates were good and he’s a ball-stopper. It’s not like there isn’t truth to the ball-stopper claim, but when there have been even ADEQUATE offensive players around him, he’s played very differently. When he made the right play, it usually failed, which isn’t his fault.

      Where KD is different from Melo is that Durant has a career TS% of 60.5% and Carmelo has a 54.5%. I cannot overstate the enormity of that gap.

      It is the difference between Golden State’s #1 TS% and the Orlando Magic’s #20 TS%. There is no need to endless criticize a volume scoring player who has a CAREER true shooting percentage higher than the league’s best offense, and who ranks #12 in all-time TS% while #9 in USG%. He is a rare, magical unicorn and there is no need to complain about his game. Carmelo is not. That’s the difference.

      This is exactly true. But it doesn’t make it any less true that it is easier to have higher efficiency when you have Westbrook and Harden and Ibaka on your team than Calderon and Afflalo and Lopez.

    37. The Olympics showcases his spot-up prowess, the same he had alongside the penetration threat of Chandler/Felton.

      Weren’t you one of the guys criticizing Chandler for being an offensive zero by clogging the lane and not creating spacing? Now he was the magic behind Melo’s most efficient season?

    38. I’m with Owen, can we move on

      He staged little rebellions every night. The veterans cackled at them. Whenever Ginobili would do something crazy, Willis, Kerr and Danny Ferry, the graybeard benchwarmers, would scream in unison: “He’s a bad man!” During one pregame film session, Popovich showed a clip of Ginobili heaving a high-risk, fast-break pass out of bounds and told him never to try it again, players recall.

      The very next game, he got the ball in a similar situation, wound up for a pass, pulled the ball back and paused to grin at Popovich. The bench went nuts.

    39. @ 47 Here is what Tyson did to help Melo as per the OP.
      Re: the Olympic Melo discussion from last night — great quote from him last night post-game:

      Last night he was asked what’s different in the Olympics. “In this situation,” he said. “It doesn’t call for me to put the team on my back. To have to create something with the ball in my hands every single play. I can just take my time, pick my spots, and play off of the guys on my team.”

      My favorite Melo memories from that great 2012-13 season were of the Felton/Tyson high-PNR, the defense collapsing on Tyson, then the kickout to Melo for 3 or drive against the closeout from the left wing. He was just money from that starting position. We saw that a bit yesterday.

      Next point: back to the Melo quote: Jeremy Lin and Mike D’Antoni must be wishing he had that mindset back then instead of doing what he did. He actually had a guy to handle the ball, admittedly they wanted him to do a lot of spotting for the corner three and he wanted to get on the low block and slap his hands. That was a long time ago, hopefully the “name” players being brought in was because those are the type of guys a player of Melo’s status will be able to defer to without losing face.

    40. Australia is at least as good as the bottom dwellers of the NBA.

      A Knicks team with Aron Baynes, Patty Mills and Andrew Bogut would be a lot better than what we’ve got now. Not many All-Star appearances between them, but some damn good players.

    41. Melo and Lin played fine together though. The Amare quote mentioned that if Lin came back there wouldn’t have been any problems between him and Melo.

    42. This is exactly true. But it doesn’t make it any less true that it is easier to have higher efficiency when you have Westbrook and Harden and Ibaka on your team than Calderon and Afflalo and Lopez.

      Hate to break this to you, but Westbrook only played 46 games in 2013-14 and Harden was not on the Thunder. Durant still posted a .635 TS% on 33 USG%.

    43. It’s not just 13- 14. Durant has a materially higher TS% without Westbrook than with him over a large career sample.

    44. @ Jowles: this is what I’m talking about, he’s not saying Melo is as good as Durant, but that Durant had it easier due to better teammates. And he’s not wrong, because we were never specifically talking about that handpicked season. Either way, fine. Durant didn’t have Harden, and Westbrook was only playing half the season, but he did have Ibaka, and 11 other players with TS>520. That’s objectively better than Melo’s team.

    45. @ Jowles: this is what I’m talking about, he’s not saying Melo is as good as Durant, but that Durant had it easier due to better teammates. And he’s not wrong, because we were never specifically talking about that handpicked season. Either way, fine. Durant didn’t have Harden, and Westbrook was only playing half the season, but he did have Ibaka, and 11 other players with TS>520. That’s objectively better than Melo’s team.

      But doesn’t Melo create better shooting because of his gravity and double-teamedness?

      See ptmilo’s post above. I don’t have access to those numbers (where’d you get em, 54?) but ptm is usually on point with these things. What’s your explanation, there?

    46. Okay, so from the beginning of the 2012-13 season through the end of the 2015-16 season, Durant has played 1227 minutes with Westbrook and Ibaka on the bench. He’s taken 879 tSA and has a TS% of 65.4, 5 points higher than his career average.

      Should we try your argument with another set of floor-spacing players?

    47. Last year, Aaron Afflalo, Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon, Derrick Williams and Lance Thomas had a higher TS% than Melo.

    48. Ladt year, Afflalo, Calderon, Lopez, Thomas, Williams, Oquinn and even Vujacic had a higher eFG% than Melo.

      He can’t trust his teammates.

    49. Melo’s eFG% (47.4) was lower than the team’s (48.3). I think there is a case for not believing the problem is his team mates preventing him from becoming a superstar.

    50. Last year, Aaron Afflalo, Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon, Derrick Williams and Lance Thomas had a higher TS% than Melo.

      This is where statistics fall apart. The Knicks couldn’t win a game without Melo on the floor. The reason others had higher TS% is because they 1) were getting put-backs. 2) Melo was triple-teamed and they were open.

    51. @Theo

      You mean last year Melo didn’t trust his teammates when he led the team in assists and had his lowest usage since his 2nd year in the league? How did those teammates perform in terms of winning games when Melo missed games? Do you realize how fucking stupid your point is?

    52. One moment Melo can’t trust his team mates because they suck on offense and would scrw up if trusted ti do something with the ball, next moment they do better than him because he creates opportunities for them and they don’t screw up…what is it?

    53. Where KD is different from Melo is that Durant has a career TS% of 60.5% and Carmelo has a 54.5%. I cannot overstate the enormity of that gap.

      Is anybody here arguing that beyond the type of players they are as SFs that score at great volume, albeit with varying levels of efficiency, that Melo is the same as Durant? Literally haven’t seen anybody here over the last 3-4 years argue Melo >= Durant.

    54. The Knicks are clearly better with Melo on the floor.

      Being the best player in a 32-win team does not a superstar make.

    55. Going from Westbrook to Reggie Jackson is a huge drop off in effciency and floor spacing.

    56. It’s like calling James Dolan a great businessman because he inherited billions of dollars and didn’t flush it all away.

      Yeah, right…. Dolan sold Cablevision for 17.7 billion and is the only guy to ever get the better of Michael Bloomberg (The West Side Stadium) but he sucks at business…. carry on!

    57. Being the best player in a 32-win team does not a superstar make.

      Who’s arguing that he’s a superstar? You must lead this board in strawmans per 48 posts.

    58. A team with its mega-max player is better than it is without its mega-max player. You realize that signing Melo means that you can’t sign other players? Opportunity cost, anyone, please?

    59. I don’t know guys. Melo is not as good as you think he is and his team mates are not as bad as they are made out to be.

    60. A team with its mega-max player is better than it is without its mega-max player. You realize that signing Melo means that you can’t sign other players? Opportunity cost, anyone, please?

      You realize that this is an issue with the salary cap and max salary limits, not so much with Melo’s dollar value on the court. Durant, Lebron, Curry, etc. having their salaries artificially lowered is the problem way more than the actual dollar value we’re giving Melo. We’ve seen articles discuss that Melo’s main problem isn’t that he won’t be worth his contract, but that because of the salary limits any team that has a Lebron or Durant effectively gets them at a discount because of the salary rules.

      Plenty of teams would be willing to pay Melo the 3 yrs/$78m left on his contract even though they aren’t getting enormous surplus value from it. I’d sure as shit rather have Melo on that type of money than Bradley Beal.

    61. I don’t know guys. Melo is not as good as you think he is and his team mates are not as bad as they are made out to be.

      They were so good they won 0 games without him last season and the team scored at bottom of the league level when he was off the floor.

      Melo is really good. Beyond that nobody’s arguing that Melo is on the level of Lebron, Curry, KD, etc.

    62. Part of the point here is that Melo is NOT LIKE Lebron, Durant, etc. because he is not CAPABLE of putting up sky-high efficiency and high usage regardless of teammates.

      He’s in an entire tier below those guys.

      But, he is capable of putting up high efficiency on high usage when he has a point guard that can get into the lane (almost everyone has one of these except the Knicks), and another scorer that the opponent must respect and gravitate towards.

      Just as there aren’t many Lebrons, Curry’s Durants, there aren’t many players capable of scoring at very efficient rates at 30+ usage.

      All evidence suggests that assisted shot attempts are much more efficient than non-assisted attempts. Penetration and another scoring threat are the primary means in which assists occur for a player like Melo.

      It’s just that deductive reasoning we’re talking about.

      Does Melo help create good scenarios for his teammates? Of course he does. Does that make them good? Of course not.

    63. Someone tell ruru, the guy arguing that Melo was a top 10 player before being saddled with inferior teammates, that nobody is arguing that Melo was a top 10 player.

    64. The Knicks nearly made the ECF with Melo and a complete dead-weight from another max salary.

      If you can’t get one of those top 5-7 players on an insane bargain max deal (relative to value), and you must spend 90 % of the cap, players like Melo have quite a bit of value.

    65. “..that Melo was a top 10 player before being saddled with inferior teammates.”

      Did I say that, or did I say he was 8th in WS over a three year period with the Knicks?

      Also, is superstar the same as a top 10 player? Do all players in the top 10 have about the same value?

      GTFO with your weak troll game.

    66. JeeZ. Melo is Melo. Can we just leave it at that. He needs more help than the top tier of guys. He’s in the second tier. I don’t get what the arguing is accomplishing.

    67. +9, +5.2, +9.0 in overall per 100 possessions +/- the last three years, Theo.

      He had nearly double the BPM of the second highest Knick last season (Lopez). He had triple the BPM of the next highest Knick in 2014 (Tyson Chandler).

    68. “Weren’t you one of the guys criticizing Chandler for being an offensive zero by clogging the lane and not creating spacing? Now he was the magic behind Melo’s most efficient season?”

      No, I’VE ALWAYS said and have had to repeat many times that his offense was what made him a really good player, not his defense. His screening, finishing and rebounding were top notch.

      But obviously he had NO value outside of those three attributes on offense, and did cause spacing issues if he wasn’t involved in screen action.

      I criticized people who over-amplified his scoring efficiency.

    69. “I’d say superstar and top 10 are reasonably equivalent, yes.”

      Ok, so let’s say for the sake of argument they are.

      Are all “superstars” the same.

      Can one argue that a player like Melo produced as a top 10 player for a three year stretch while also not being in the stratosphere of Lebron, Durant, Curry et al, without saying he’s a superstar or currently a top 10 player?

      You guys are obsessed with the this “superstar” bullshit.

      There’s no definition for superstar, dude.

    70. Christ, why are you making me do this?

      It’s okay to have a non-threat offensive player if you have 3-4 other capable, versatile offensive threats …. like Boston of 2008 with Perkins, the kinds of 4/5s that played alongside Duncan,….etc al.

      When you’re only playing with 4 guys that can threaten the defense with the ball, the defense only has to respect 4 players (pick and roll aside), offense gets much more difficult.

      and this has nothing to do with Chandler, but lol:

      Bargnani is a good post defender. He’ll certainly be an upgrade over Copeland/Novak at protecting the rim, rebounding and defending bigger player.

    71. He had nearly double the BPM of the second highest Knick last season (Lopez). He had triple the BPM of the next highest Knick in 2014 (Tyson Chandler).

      In 2012-2013 the guy who led the Knicks in BPM was Jason Kidd. You spent the year loudly ridiculing anyone who suggested Jason Kidd was a very valuable player. The next highest was Tyson Chandler, a guy we should all agree to never speak about on this site again. What does that tell us?

    72. and this has nothing to do with Chandler, but lol:

      Bargnani is a good post defender. He’ll certainly be an upgrade over Copeland/Novak at protecting the rim, rebounding and defending bigger player.

      What about this is wrong?

    73. “You spent the year loudly ridiculing anyone who suggested Jason Kidd was a very valuable player.”

      Do you ever feel guilty about so brazenly contorting other people’s arguments? It’s such a cheap way to try to debate.

      I never said Kidd WASN’T a very valuable player, he clearly was, and yes, BPM showed him to be an even more valuable player per minute than Melo.

      What I argued, however, is that his contributions should be viewed quite differently than a player like Melo given how he impacted the game in an almost polar-opposite way.

    74. What about this is wrong?

      Saying Bargnani is better than a turnip at defending the rim, guarding and rebounding is hilarious to me. Am I alone?

    75. Kevin, despite being the worst help defender who ever played the game (with the possible exception of Amare), Bargnani was in fact a decent one-on-one post defender. There was an exchange on this board about that very true though puzzling fact. It’s easy to pile on a loser like Bargnani, but more useful to look at what exactly made him bad – and that wasn’t his post defense, which was more than adequate.

    76. Notice in that thread where I clarified what I was arguing: “threat with the ball, pick and roll aside.”

      I was talking about his absence of offense outside of PNR which obviously is not helpful.

      I certainly began to appreciate Chandler’s offense more over time, and statistically teams functioned better with him offensively later in his Knicks career.

    77. I think Kevin’s point is that “saying Bargnani is better than a turnip at defending the rim” appears to be being used to justify the trade or that the team is better with him on it than Copeland/Novak.

    78. Nick – right, but that’s not what ruru actually was doing in the thread. Though I did see this comment from Jack Bauer:

      That draft pick they gave up for Bargnani is 2 years down the road, not to mention Denver had the rights to switch with us. So like I said, we didn’t give up much that would help us NEXT year. Crow may be served as I believe a change of scenery and a lesser role will bring out the best in Bargnani. A low risk move that could very well yield good dividends next year.

      Oh, man.

    79. Yeah maybe one or two guys. Pretty the rest we’re in agreement that giving up a 1st(or anything) for Bargs was one of the dumbest decisions we’ve made.

    80. A low risk move that could very well yield good dividends next year.

      The same thing people are now saying about the Rose trade. This franchise…

    81. I certainly began to appreciate Chandler’s offense more over time, and statistically teams functioned better with him offensively later in his Knicks career.

      Just never again call the great DRed a troll and maybe we all can get along.

    82. Maybe we should all take a break until the season starts… I’ve been a faithful reader of this blog for the past 10 years but reading these threads recently makes me feel like my head is going to explode. Are we really still having iterations of the Melo/Chandler debate?

      Pretty sure this all started as a debate about Melo as a Hall of Fame lock. Whether you agree with it or not, he is.

    83. Great posts by DRed and Kevin Udwary- ruru is not the most reliable person when trying to objectively assess Melo’s game.

      I guess his argument is that Melo will only play great when he is part of a team where he can play great. Until then, he is not great. Blame the Devil, Larry Merchant or Adele, but those are the conditions.

    84. Melo is not overpaid. Every player better than him and on a sane contract is underpaid. Makes sense, Donald.

    85. Pretty sure this all started as a debate about Melo as a Hall of Fame lock. Whether you agree with it or not, he is.

      Melo is a 9 time (and counting) all star who has been on 6 all nba teams. He is 100% a hall of famer.

    86. Summary:
      Melo will be in the Hall of Fame, but he might not be a “superstar.”
      James Dolan may or may not be a good businessman.
      Reub has a headache.

    87. Theo the max salary does artificially manipulate the free agent market. That’s why everyone is always talking about playing in big markets when free agency rolls around. If LeBron wasn’t subject to the salary cap he’d probably make something like 50 million a year and Melo would make around what he is now. So it does provide surplus value to the organization that has the top tier superstars. So you can try to put a complimentary team together or you tank and hope you hit a home run in the draft to get that type of talent.

    88. Shots fired! Every once in a while, I’ll log in just to voice appreciation for a great comment/DRed. This is one of those times

    89. @107 – the salary cap does not “artificially manipulate” (whatever that means) anything. The salary cap applies limits and consitions on how teams can use their budgets. Some teams do a great job of it (San Antonio, Warriors) and some do a terrible job of it (Knicks, Nets).

      We can’t sit here and foolishly soeculate that if there was no salary cap, LeBron would earn 60 millions and Melo’s 24M would be a bargain. The intelligent, accurate view is that if there was no cap, LeBron would make 60 millions and the Knicks would overpay Melo to the tune of 75 millions, because that’s what they do: overpay the names they bring here. And that’s what Melo does: get the most money he can.

    90. Yo wetbandit, did you throw up the white flag or are you still insisting that Kevin Durant needed Westbrook and Ibaka to put up insanely high efficiency?

    91. Damn I just want the Knicks to play games already.

      I would take scrimmage at training camp at the rate we are going.

    92. “I think he just needs a consistent second scorer and a league average PG to take that burden off him. That doesn’t seem like too much too ask.”

      +100
      It seems too much to ask for his Knick career so far

    93. I mean, other than about 3 weeks of Jeremy Lin, the PG situation here for the last 15 years has been sad, very sad.

    94. Schedule is out. First thing I noticed: lots of back-to-backs. Also several home-and-homes.

    95. Everyone should read that Manu article. So great. Winning that 2004 gold medal is on my shortlist for greatest wins in basketball history, right up there with Lebron 2016 and Wade’s first title (which I think is a phenomenally underrated accomplishment.) He was insane in that Olympics.

      And the bit about him falling into a depression and not leaving his house for a week after the Miami finals is pretty priceless. I honestly can’t think of a professional athlete that I have liked better than Manu.

      On the superstar front, I’d go shorter than ten, although it’s obviously completely subjective. I think it depends on the year too. But right now, we have a couple of guys who are just a step change better than the next tier. I’d consider them the superstars, players who are consistently above the 250 ws/48 threshold. But that’s just me.

    96. Here are my definitions:

      Superstar: a player who can win a title as the clear best player. There seems to be 3-6 players at this level every year.

      Star: One of the top dozen players in the league, would reliably make the ASG every year if it wasn’t a popularity contest.

      Elite starter: Top 30 player. Might make up to 3 ASGs in his career if this is what he peaks as and if the ASG wasn’t a popularity contest.

      Above avg. starter: Top 60 player.

      Melo has had maybe three star level seasons IMO. He has never been a superstar but definitely would have been if he’d added a reliable three point shot before he began to decline athletically. These days, he’s an elite starter when healthy and is a high risk of declining to above average starter or worse due to his age, recent injury history, and the on again, off again nature of his three point shooting.

    97. @67 You’re maybe forgetting that we also lost Lance Thomas to injury for much of the last half of the season. I suspect our decline at defending the perimeter due to his absence was a pretty big part of the deteriorating W/L percentage.

      PS Melo is fine. He’s pretty good! Better than most! He’s def. not as good as Durant over time. But I am totally fine with this conversation. I feel like it helps justify my deeply bitter anti-Jackson posts.

    98. I don’t agree with that def of superstar. Guys like McHale, Worthy, Pippen, etc. are superstars in my book.

    99. Willy’s final stats: 11pts on 5-6 shooting, 4 rebounds, 3 fouls. He looks like he will have very pronounced issues on D, although these games are so helter-skelter it’s hard to tell. Seems to have very good size and likes physical play, but a little slow at moving his feet and getting position defensively and rebounding.

    100. lavor postell: You realize that this is an issue with the salary cap and max salary limits, not so much with Melo’s dollar value on the court. Durant, Lebron, Curry…

      First, if not for the giant cap jump, it wouldn’t just be the superstars who benefit in terms of value to the team from the CBA. Players on their first post rookie contracts only qualify for 70% of the contract that 10+ yr vets like Melo qualify for.

      If Beal’s rookie contract had occurred during a span where the cap grew normally, he’d only be making like $17-18m/year. And Beal is like the worst case scenario for a max player. If not for all the cap space out there, I think he would have gotten more like 70% of the max, so now we’re looking at like $12.5m/year — half Melo’s salary.

      That doesn’t sound so bad when you consider Melo’s decline risk is probably even more grave than Beal’s injury risk, and if Beal does get healthy, he could have a dozen more years in the league, under all of which you will have a leg up in terms of trying to sign him.

    101. Knicks on TNT 9 times this season, topped only by Warriors and Clippers with 10 each.

      So someone obviously likes our offseason moves. Star power, baby!

    102. Watching Kuzminkas dominate Ginobli. What I like best about what I see is that he has excellent basketball IQ. Great game, btw.

    103. Kuz looks promising. His skills and play style seem like they have a good chance of translating over to the NBA.

    104. I just saw the box score for Kuz: 23 pts on 9 for 13 shooting (2 for 3 from 3pt range, 3 for 4 FT line) with 5 rebs.

      At least the Knicks got an easy win on their schedule to start the season….

    105. I really hope Kuz and Billy Buckets turn into some players. Hernangomez looks like an Enes Kanter type of guy, and that’s perfect off the bench (I don’t expect him to be as productive as Kanter). A Taj Gibson type is more useful because defense, but that’s not his game. You never know, though. I just want value from everywhere because Rose is a long shot to be productive and we need to produce wins from somewhere.

    106. Z-man used expert basketball-watching skillz to learn this from one Olympic game

      expert… just a pure expert over here

    107. @94 Nice job digging that up, you must have a lot of extra time on your hands this summer. I have admitted I was dead wrong several times (I’m sure you can find those as well ) and was very vocal about what a useless piece of shit Bargnani turned out to be. It doesn’t make my comment any less stupid, but I wasn’t the only one on this esteemed site who thought he might be useful.

    108. Z-man used expert basketball-watching skillz to learn this from one Olympic game

      expert… just a pure expert over here

      Awww, don’t be jealous, Jowles. I would enlighten you but as our beloved Pablo said, “I cannot say all the secrets.”

    109. @140

      I didn’t dig it up; it was a couple of comments away from ruru’s comment that Kevin linked to. Sorry you are embarrassed by a thing you said that I wasn’t particularly looking for and don’t care about and saw by chance.

      @114

      I think it was me, Jowles, but I didn’t insist, I said it made it easier for KD to have better players around him. Looks like I was wrong. Though I also said that KD is on another level from Melo, and it isn’t really close.

      That Manu article is awesome. I admire him all the more now. I hadn’t realized what a key piece of the chemistry of the Spurs he was – I thought it was all about Timmy.

    110. you must have a lot of extra time on your hands this summer

      it’s pretty easy to retrieve terrible prognosticating on this site

      just have to enter any thread

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