Knicks Morning News (2015.01.06)

  • [New York Post] Tyson Chandler surprised by the mess the Knicks have become (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 01:40:05 -0500)

    After Tyson Chandler spent three years in New York, he's back with his new/old team and surprised at the dumpster fire the Knicks have become since he was traded away….

  • [New York Post] Phil Jackson clears tons of cap space — for Marc Gasol? (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 01:17:26 -0500)

    MEMPHIS, Tenn. — It may be a pipe dream to think of landing free-agent-to-be center Marc Gasol, but it is one the Knicks still cling to as they absorb this…

  • [New York Post] The easy part is done — but now Phil Jackson’s true test begins (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 00:06:15 -0500)

    This was the easy part. This was the obvious part. Of course the Knicks had do this, had to embrace the full force of rebuilding. When you are five wins…

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks trade J.R. Smith, Iman Shumpert to Cavs (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 06:25:50 GMT)

    With the Knicks off to a dreadful 5-31 start, team president Phil Jackson finally showed he has seen enough.

  • [New York Daily News] Memorable J.R. Smith shenanigans from his Knicks career (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 05:51:46 GMT)

    J.R. Smith’s greatest hits (and misses):

  • [New York Daily News] Lupica: Knicks are hard to buy (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 05:49:20 GMT)

    This is where we are with the Phil Jackson era, nearly a year into it: The Knicks have turned into the Washington Generals.

  • [New York Daily News] Former Knick Tyson Chandler reacts to J.R. Smith trade (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 05:06:43 GMT)

    Tyson Chandler’s former teammates on the Knicks, J.R. Smith and Iman Shumpert were being shipped to Cleveland in a salary dump, he was told.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks drop 12th straight in loss to Grizzlies (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 04:31:24 GMT)

    The Knicks made a salary-dumping deal off the court — and some dubious history on the floor — on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Scottish Football Club Rangers Rejects Sarver Lifeline (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 07:38:48 GMT)

    Troubled Scottish football club Rangers on Tuesday said it had rejected a possible takeover offer from Robert Sarver, the owner of the Phoenix Suns basketball team, as it did not adequately value a controlling interest in the club.

  • [New York Times] Hawks Beat Clippers 107-98 for 7th Straight Road Victory (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 07:35:59 GMT)

    The Atlanta Hawks just keep rolling on the road.

  • [New York Times] Warriors Get Defensive in 117-91 Win Over Thunder (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 07:32:52 GMT)

    Golden State Warriors coach Steve Kerr often reminds his players the morning of a big game that they better be ready for a tough test that night.

  • [New York Times] Hibbert Scores 22 to Lead Pacers to 105-101 Win Over Jazz (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 06:38:59 GMT)

    Roy Hibbert helped the Indiana Pacers to a big lead and then had to nervously watch his teammates withstand Utah’s furious comeback bid.

  • [New York Times] Lillard Scores 39 to Rally Blazers Past Lakers 98-94 (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 05:50:59 GMT)

    Damian Lillard scored 39 points and made the go-ahead basket with 36 seconds remaining as the Portland Trail Blazers rallied from a 10-point deficit in the second half to beat the Los Angeles Lakers 98-94 Monday night.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Sixers Defeat Short-Handed Cavaliers (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 05:35:56 GMT)

    Tony Wroten scored 20 points and hit a go-ahead layup with 9.1 seconds left to lift the host Philadelphia 76ers to a 95-92 win over Cleveland.

  • [New York Times] At 5-32, Knicks Look to the Future by Trading Smith and Shumpert (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 05:14:33 GMT)

    J. R. Smith and Iman Shumpert were on their way to Cleveland as part of a three-team trade, and Samuel Dalembert was waived.

  • [New York Times] Cavs Trade Waiters to OKC, Get Smith, Shumpert From Knicks (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 05:05:57 GMT)

    The Cavaliers tried to make it work with Dion Waiters. They couldn’t wait any longer.

  • [New York Times] Mavericks 96, Nets 88: Nets Make It Interesting but Wither in Overtime (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 04:58:43 GMT)

    The Nets made 16 shots in the first quarter and only 16 more in the rest of regulationen route to a 96-88 overtime loss to the Mavericks.

  • [New York Times] Gasol Scores 27, Butler Has 22 as Bulls Beat Rockets 114-105 (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 04:53:51 GMT)

    Whether he is emerging as an MVP candidate or not, Jimmy Butler isn’t sure. The only thing that matters to him is the Chicago Bulls keep winning.

  • [New York Times] Dirk Moves Up NBA Scoring List, Mavs Beat Nets 96-88 in OT (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 04:35:52 GMT)

    Dirk Nowitzki called it an “insane, crazy ride” that’s carried him past some of basketball’s greats.

  • [New York Times] Afflalo, Nuggets Hand Wolves 12th Straight Loss (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 04:32:57 GMT)

    It’s been a slog at times for Arron Afflalo in his second tour with the Denver Nuggets as he tries to re-acclimate himself to a team in flux.

  • [New York Times] 76ers End 14-Game Home Skid With 95-92 Win Over Cavaliers (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 03:51:16 GMT)

    LeBron James was absent. So were Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters.

  • [New York Times] Wizards End Skid With 92-85 Win Over Pelicans (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 03:48:59 GMT)

    John Wall had 15 points and 12 assists, and the Washington Wizards ended a three-game skid with a 92-85 victory over the New Orleans Pelicans on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Grizzlies 105, Knicks 83: In Memphis, Knicks Can Only Watch Marc Gasol and Wish He Were One of Them (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 03:39:37 GMT)

    Gasol, one of the best centers in the N.B.A. and a free agent after the season, helped the Grizzlies send the Knicks to their 12th straight defeat.

  • [New York Times] Walker Scores 33, Carries Hornets Past Celtics 104-95 (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 03:31:47 GMT)

    Kemba Walker scored 20 of his 33 points in the second half and Cody Zeller finished with a career-high 20 points on a perfect shooting night, carrying the Charlotte Hornets to a 104-95 win over the Boston Celtics on Monday.

  • [New York Times] AP Source: Knicks Sending Smith, Shumpert to Cavs (Tue, 06 Jan 2015 02:57:46 GMT)

    The New York Knicks are trading J.R. Smith and Iman Shumpert to the disappointing Cavaliers, who have struggled in superstar LeBron James’ first season back in Cleveland.

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    121 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2015.01.06)”

    1. Shumpert has been very, VERY, VERY overrated by NY Knicks fans over the years.
      His TS% hovers around 0.484, his WS/48 0.048 last year and 0.020 this year, and shoots 33-34% from the 3. Defensively, he was never all that great either. I think other teams don’t value him much at all.
      JR is crap. Good riddance.

      This move basically moved out Shumpert a few months early, gave away Dalembert a few months early, and threw away JR’s contract. And gave us a second rounder. Do we really think that Shumpert is worth a first rounder?!

      Phil Jackson basically looked at the locker room, said “I need that JR guy out of here already,” and then added, “And almost everyone else.” He wants to attract someone good in free agency this summer. No good free agent will come to this team. He wanted to change the team. There is no first round pick next year. This is it.

      We weren’t getting a first rounder or a good player for Shumpert. Best we could get was a JR-dump and a second rounder. I’m fine with it.

    2. I’m with you wetbandit. Shump probably isn’t as bad as the pro trade people are saying but he definitely isn’t as good as the against the trade folks are saying. I’d say this puts us into position to sign 2 good two way players and 1 defensively or offensively good players this off-season plus our hopefully number 1 pick in the draft. Hopefully the cap jumps a lot after next season and the last two years of Melo we can compete with the top teams. Let’s hope the Zen Master can evaluate talent well now that he has mostly a blank slate.

    3. More specifically, this is just the beginning of part (A) to a multi-part roster change. This was a salary and toxic-player dumping. There will be more to part (A).

      The real change comes with part (B), who we get to replace these guys. I just don’t see Phil going with anything other than star talent. That’s the part that worries me, really.

    4. I’d definitely prefer to see 2 10 mil a year players and 1 5-7 mil players signed and get a center in the draft.

    5. I don’t think it’s a great trade, but it’s not something to get upset about. Shumpert made $2.6M and JR made almost $6M. For that money plus trade exceptions, the Knicks should be able to get replacements who are at least as good. This is different from the Donnie Walsh trades in that Phil is getting picks (although very minor ones) instead of giving them away. But it’s the same principle of breaking down the team at the beginning to rebuild it your way. We have yet to see Phil build the team his way, and the big question is how well he will do at rebuilding.

    6. I agree, we have nothing. It seems to me that Phil is basically going to throw untested young guys out there and see who sticks. It’s horrible to watch, but it already seems to have finally given Cole his chance and he’s likely to be at least our backup center going forward. I predict Phil will use the young guys he just got, or find some other ones, for example Galloway, and see what they can do.

    7. I agree, we have nothing. It seems to me that Phil is basically going to throw untested young guys out there and see who sticks. It’s horrible to watch, but it already seems to have finally given Cole his chance and he’s likely to be at least our backup center going forward. I predict Phil will use the young guys he just got, or find some other ones, for example Galloway, and see what they can do.

      They’re apparently only keeping Lance Thomas. So that leaves them two empty spots. The key day is tomorrow, which is the deadline for teams to put players on waivers in time for them to clear by Saturday, which is when players’ salaries become guaranteed. So a bunch of semi-interesting players suddenly become available today and tomorrow. I imagine they’ll first look through those players, find one or two and then bring up Galloway.

      If no one interesting is waived, I worry that we might see a return of Shannon Brown.

    8. So who are we filling the roster spots with? We got fucking nothing right now. Nothing.

      Yeah, this is the problem. In order to sign anyone who could make a difference we’ll likely have to overpay because I don’t think “come play with gimpy Melo, Cole Aldrich, and jack shit else” is a great sales pitch.

    9. We’re almost certainly calling up Langston Galloway, who’s basically a combo guard and will take some SG minutes.

      I still wonder in the back of my mind whether or not Andrew Bynum is floating out there. Fisher and Phil were in LA for Bynum’s entire career there. Have to figure that if anyone can get through to Bynum it is those two. Would he take a Lamar Odom deal – ie. minimum for the rest of this year + a team option for year 2? Or just sit out the whole season, get healthy, and come back for a room exception-type (or even minimum) deal?

      Re: the return on this particular deal – I think that we have several sizable trade exceptions now that Phil can try to use to facilitate other teams’ trades at the deadline, a la the 76ers, and get 2nd round picks back in exchange.

      After thinking about this a bunch, I’m totally fine with the deal. If not for the Reggie Jackson and then the 1st round pick twitter teases, it feels like a semi-ok deal. I hope Max is wrong and that this is not 2010 all over again. I sort of feel like Phil is smart enough not to totally overspend on marginal guys (and especially more 1-way players), and so if he strikes out on the big FAs he spends prudently on 2nd tier guys and uses cap space to do unbalanced deals and restock the cupboard with picks etc.

      Going into the 2015 season, I think it’s entirely reasonable to think we could have something like Okafor/Towns, Greg Monroe, Melo, Wes Matthews, and Calderon as a starting lineup, with bench guys like Early, Thanasis, THJ, and maybe even Bynum on a flier. I would be totally cool with that. I’d love it if it were Jimmy Butler instead of Matthews but I think that’s unlikely.

    10. Melo, STAT, Calderon, Cole, Jason Smith, Larkin, Hardaway, Acy, Prigioni, Bargnani, Early

      Plus probable addition of Galloway and Lance Thomas.

      That’s what we have. Dred said it right: “fucking nothing.” Who would come here??? Who can you possibly trade for with these guys?

      We’re gonna suck bad this year. Woo-eee.

    11. We don’t even have Melo, Stat and Bargs!

      Timmy need to start taking all the shots so we can deal him to Sacto

    12. Honestly – I know the Tyson trade looks like a clusterfuck now but I’m impressed that Phil actually is embracing a full rebuild.

      Think about when we sucked prior to the 2010 FA year. We won a few meaningless games in 2008 and 2009 and so ended up with Gallo and Jordan Hill instead of Westbrook and Curry. If you’re going to suck, suck. And the best way to suck is to put a bunch of D-leaguers out there with Bargnani and Jason Smith.

      Must say that the Melo re-sign looks/feels even weirder now. I wonder/hope — if Phil seemingly strikes out in FA this summer, will Melo agree to get traded?

      And now that we’ve gone this way, I really hope we just waive Amare. He doesn’t deserve to go down in a sinking ship like this. He could sign for the minimum someplace and be a useful 15-20min bench guy on even a championship level team.

    13. We’re gonna suck bad this year. Woo-eee.

      Gonna? We’ve been there brother. It’s just the same 5 win team, just with more cap flexibility in the future.

    14. Our best shot is hoping the market undervalues guys like Wes Matthews, Beverly, and maybe Amir Johnson/Brandan Wright. If we use most/all of the cap space on those guys and nail the pick the team could be…I don’t know. Decent?

    15. but I’m impressed that Phil actually is embracing a full rebuild.

      I don’t mean this as a knock on him at all, but how could he not embrace a full rebuild? They’re 5-32! There’s not an NBA President/GM alive who wouldn’t be embracing a full rebuild at this point.

      He only embraced rebuilding when it was forced on him. I mean, good for him I guess for not being willfully stupid, but I don’t think it’s much of a credit to him. Especially when he should have been rebuilding before the season began (instead of giving Melo the Mega-Max).

    16. I think Phil’s toughest decision will be whether to use cap space this offseason on guys like Matthews, Millsap, Beverly etc. or keep his powder dry and go for the Durant home run in 2016. If I knew Durant was coming here, I could tolerate another bad season and grabbing another 1st round pick (oh wait, Bargs, the gift that keeps on giving)

    17. but I’m impressed that Phil actually is embracing a full rebuild.

      This isn’t a full rebuild! It is the shortest path to mediocrity and it is what the Knicks always do.

      A full rebuild doesn’t saddle the franchise with a $125 million 30+ year old. A full rebuild doesn’t trade Tyson Chandler for young players that they don’t plan to keep. A full rebuild doesn’t trade home-grown players for cap space to spend on a marginal class of free agents.

      A full rebuild also doesn’t require a team to put up a historically awful winning%.

      Hate to say it but autonomous Phil is no better than the Dolan puppets of the past.

    18. Hate to say it but autonomous Phil is no better than the Dolan puppets of the past.

      So far, it’s the same. But the true test will be the offseason. I still, perhaps foolishly, have faith in him.

    19. There’s not an NBA President/GM alive who wouldn’t be embracing a full rebuild at this point.

      But a “full rebuild” requires trading Carmelo Anthony. Which maybe Phil wants to do, but he gave him a no-trade clause!

    20. What I meant was just try to lose as many games as possible while dumping anyone who has no future with the team. Like Riley did for the Heat back in 2008 and San Antonio did back in 1997. I, too, would like to see them try to trade Melo, but that ship has obviously sailed.

    21. Full rebuild also would require us to own our pick in 2016, which we do not. I think our model is Spurs the year Robinson got hurt and returned the next year with a Duncan by his side. Clearly , Melo is no Robinson and Okafor is no Duncan, but without the 2016 pick , this needs to be a 1 year project.

    22. What I meant was just try to lose as many games as possible while dumping anyone who has no future with the team.

      Yeah, that’s not a full rebuild. That’s just trying to salvage a disastrous situation as quickly as possible. Losing on purpose for a 25% one-time shot is the sign of a desperate franchise that is out of original ideas.

    23. Yeah, that’s not a full rebuild. That’s just trying to salvage a disastrous situation as quickly as possible. Losing on purpose for a 25% one-time shot is the sign of a desperate franchise that is out of original ideas.

      In the Knicks’ particular situation, 5-32, I don’t think that there is a President/GM alive who wouldn’t punt on this season for the draft pick. I don’t think that’s desperate. They can end up with a 100% chance of getting a top five pick (possibly even a 100% chance of a top four pick).

      I’m fine for knocking Jackson for signing Melo and not just rebuilding right away, but once he saw the situation, I think this is the way to go. Get that top draft pick.

    24. i’d prefer to reserve judgment until after the trade deadline this year.
      We don’t have much in way of tangible assets now but there are 4-5 teams over the luxury tax (including OKC for instance) that could trade expirings into our trade exceptions for some 2nd round picks.

      Meanwhile, Tommy Beer just tweeted that during pregame last friday, a Knicks coach had to stop JR and Dalembert from having a half-court shooting contest.

      These dudes needed to get off the team. They’re just poison. Would i have liked to get something more for Shump? Sure, but I’m not sure that Shump is that great an asset – injured all the time, hopelessly lost on offense, streaky as a shooter, and due for an Avery Bradley contract this summer. I think it’s borderline amazing that Phil got someone to take JR.

    25. We need to sign some above average players or trade for them this offseason. Make the roster talented enough to look like it could make the leap to contender. Otherwise who would sign with us?

      Hopefully the cap will then jump enough to sign a true max level guy.

    26. Yeah, when I try to put myself in Phil’s place and think “What would I do?”, the lack of next year’s pick is just such a constraining factor. Can you imagine trading Melo, being possibly even worse next year, and not even getting the top lotto pick that comes with that? Not only is it devastating emotionally, but it makes it exceedingly likely that you’re going to be absolutely terrible for a third consecutive year after that, and I’m just not sure any GM except Hinkie (let alone Phil at his age) is in a position to accept that kind of timetable.

      If we just had that next year’s pick then the move is fairly obvious, dump Melo, add next year’s top-3 lotto pick to this year’s, plus whatever other picks and young players we can grab for Melo, and you have the kind of young talent/asset base that makes it possible to start building towards a contender along multiple routes – if the right option to trade for a star is there you have the assets, you can start mixing in free agents, or if there’s no value, you stay patient and let your guys develop while hopefully scooping up yet another lottery pick.

      Basically the bottom line is fuck the fucking Bargnani trade. In a lifetime of catastrophic Knicks moves that one is a worthy contender for the crown.

    27. Well, to be fair, that trade still goes back to the terrible Melo deal, as the Knicks would only get their pick if they finished ahead of Denver, since Denver got the right to trade 2016 first rounders in the Melo deal. I remember at the time being aghast. All they gave up and swapping 2016 picks?!?

    28. Has Phil given up a 1st round pick yet? If no, then he’s still the best gm we’ve had in forever.

    29. PJ: Hey JD, how’s the gigs going? By the way, didn’t get my $1 million check last month.
      JD: What the f*ck are you doing?

    30. These dudes needed to get off the team. They’re just poison.

      Wasn’t Dalembert one of the guys we got in the last trade that was supposedly done to help fix the culture on the team? And JR’s poison didn’t seem to cripple the long string of winning teams he was on (2006-2013). I don’t want to discount Phil’s understanding of basketball chemistry, but every team he ever won with had “problem” guys, from MJ and Rodman through Kobe, Bynum, Artest and Odom. I’m not saying the situations were identical or anything like that, but at some point we’re going to need some talent to go with all the lovely personalities we’ve got.

    31. Do you all think we should have kept Shump? For what?

      We’ve heard Shumpert trades weekly for the past 3 years. Pretty much any of them would have been better than what the final trade turned out to be. Some would have netted NY an all star (Teague, Lowry). Some would have netted 1st round picks. But the only thing NY wanted was to attach their mistake contracts to: first Felton, now JR.

      Sure, Phil inherited these bad contracts attached to bad people, but there is an alternative: waive them and eat the $ owed to them. Sure, it hurts, and you lose out on over-paying some mediocre free agent somewhere down the line, but it is the responsible thing to do because it doesn’t compound mistakes with more mistakes. Phil’s autonomy was supposed to fix that problem, but it seems to be endemic in NY.

    32. Well, to be fair, that trade still goes back to the terrible Melo deal, as the Knicks would only get their pick if they finished ahead of Denver, since Denver got the right to trade 2016 first rounders in the Melo deal. I remember at the time being aghast. All they gave up and swapping 2016 picks?!?

      Good point. My earlier post should have read:

      Basically the bottom line is fuck the fucking Bargnani trade and fuck the fucking Melo trade too. In a lifetime of catastrophic Knicks moves they are both worthy contenders for the crown.

    33. Shump was never ever ever getting traded straight up for Kyle Lowry. Yes, we should have traded him last season. But we didn’t. So why keep him around for half a pointless season now while keeping JRs dumbass contract?

    34. @Donnie Walsh:

      1. There are not going to be any Teague/Lowry trades for Shumpert, not now, not ever.
      2. Or were you planning on keeping Shumpert past this year? If so, fine, but I don’t think he’s worth whatever he would be asking.
      3. So then we would end up letting him go this summer, waive JR and eat his contract. And let go of Shumpert. And why would that make sense if we were going to let go of both? Why not save the money and get a second rounder.

      I repeat, Shumpert is not a good player. A SG who doesn’t shoot the 3, can’t hit layups, and plays just average D is worthless to me.

    35. Idk how anybody can be negative about this trade. You rid yourself of JR who had negative value and $6.4m player option at the cost of giving up Shumpert, who was expiring and fucking sucked again this year after an unsustainably hot start.

      For those wondering why we couldn’t get more for Shump look around. Deng on an expiring contract last year yielded two 2nd round picks. Rondo on an expiring this year yielded Brandan Wright and a 2016 1st round pick. Both of those players are 100x as good as Shump will ever be.

      The Tyson trade boils down to wanting to rid ourselves of Felton and getting some assets in return for Chandler who wasn’t sticking around after this season. We got a No. 34 pick (more valuable than a late 1st), No. 51, Calderon, Bert (expiring) and Larkin.

      Anybody worried about Larkin not being a Knick next year because some team is going to pay more than $1.6m for a 5’11 PG should be prepared for him to come back to New York at that $1.6m next year after the Knicks are done with whatever free agent shopping they do. Reminds me of everybody freaking out that Cole was going to leave last summer until we re-signed him at the minimum.

      We’ll have a good chance now to see what we have in Early with extended run the rest of the season and based on what I’ve seen so far I think he could be a rotation player. In particular defensively he’s been better than advertised.

      We cleared some cap space for next summer and now the worry is we’re going to blow our load on mediocrity. It seems way too early to jump the gun on that. Need to let things play out and grade it at the end. Let’s see who we get in the draft and if Phil is able to buy some 2nd rounders again. There’s a very long way to go before we can really grade either of this or the Chandler trade.

    36. Look- the deals that were or weren’t done in the past- those are all in the past, and Phil had little or nothing to do with them.

      Re waiving JR and stretching him thereby “saving” Shump at the cost of 2.2MM cap space (the yearly stretch for JR) – does anyone think there was any chance we were going to resign Shump? His cap hold to keep his Bird Rights is something like 8MM. So we would actually have ~$10MM less in usable cap space if we stretched JR and “saved” Shump.

      And so if we were going to renounce Shump and let him walk anyway, then the question is whether you think anyone would have given us a 1st round pick for an always injured defensive specialist who is due a big contract this summer. The answer is almost certainly no.

      If that’s what the answer was, then you ask whether trading Shump for 2.2MM/year x 3 years of cap space, getting a goofball off your team, and helping ensure tankage is good for the team. I would say yes.

    37. We’ve heard Shumpert trades weekly for the past 3 years. Pretty much any of them would have been better than what the final trade turned out to be. Some would have netted NY an all star (Teague, Lowry). Some would have netted 1st round picks. But the only thing NY wanted was to attach their mistake contracts to: first Felton, now JR.

      And both of those if I recall correctly would have also involved us shipping out the 2018 first round pick.

      No.

    38. a Shumpert is not a good player

      No. But he proved yesterday to have value. He was used to package off a bad asset. That value could have translated to acquiring an asset instead of shedding a contract. But NY is obsessed with buying their way out of their own mistakes.

    39. an alternative: waive them and eat the $ owed to them.

      Yes, but if we did that I think their salary dollars would still count against the cap because their contracts were committed or their option for next year. Dalembert’s contract was our option, so not committed and the three guys we got also aren’t committed, so we can waive them all and save salary space. Net is waiving JR and Shump probably wouldn’t clear cap space. Trading them does.

    40. And both of those if I recall correctly would have also involved us shipping out the 2018 first round pick

      Nope. Teague was a salary dump for the Hawks.

      Lowry was Shump + [hardaway OR 2018 pick]

      And before that it was with the Thunder which real GM stated as: “the Knicks trading Shumpert to the Thunder in exchange for veteran power forward Nick Collison and a first round pick in 2014 draft.”

      Yup. But if there’s one thing we know, it’s that the New York Knicks hate 1st round draft picks.

      So flash forward a few months and Tyson Chandler is traded for two 2nd rounders and Shump is traded for OKC’s 1st rounder (but it goes to Cleveland, not us!)

    41. That value could have translated to acquiring an asset instead of shedding a contract.

      Cap space IS an asset. How do you think Hinkie has accumulated those 95 2nd round picks?

      I get why everyone has déjà vu nightmares about 2010, but just because one GM does a John Idzik job doesn’t mean the next one will. If we end up maxing out bad players then yes, it’s 2010 again. But it might not turn out that way.

    42. Yes, but if we did that I think their salary dollars would still count against the cap because their contracts were committed

      Yes. That is exactly right. I am saying NY should have eaten the cap space rather than try to get put of it. It’s what Detroit did with Josh Smith. It is the responsible fiscal move toward building a healthy franchise.

    43. Re the Lowry trade- it was always going to have our 2018 pick attached. That would’ve been an ok deal. Not great, but ok.

    44. Yes. That is exactly right. I am saying NY should have eaten the cap space rather than try to get put of it. It’s what Detroit did with Josh Smith. It is the responsible fiscal move toward building a healthy franchise.

      Do you really think some team would’ve given us a 1st round pick for Shump? I mean now, not last year? If so, you’re right. But I don’t think anyone was giving us a 1st for a Shump. And we were never going to resign him. So we traded him for a 2nd and shed JRs contract. It’s fine.

    45. If this bit of extra cap space is enough to get us a solid rotation player for cheaper than what Shump would have been asking for this is clearly a win. We have to wait and see what Phil can do with his money this offseason to grade this trade.

      The rest of the season is tryouts for rotation spots next year. If we think we have something in Early, Galloway, or whoever then we’ll better know how to fill up our roster after we sign one or two starters.

    46. Cap space IS an asset. How do you think Hinkie has accumulated those 95 2nd round picks?

      But the Knicks had cap space going into yesterday. They just wanted more. They could have easily used the $22 million they already had to rent out to teams looking to clear 2015 space. Trade for bad contracts that expire in 2016 (when Felton and JR Smith expire). Accumulate picks and young players to develop over those futile years.

      As it is we develop players to package with our mistake contracts and are left with nothing but 1 overpaid “star” and 14 empty shelves. In that situation cap space isn’t as asset, it’s a license to fuck yourself.

      Look, I get the 2010 clearing. It turned out to be a mistake, but I get it. If LeBron wanted to play in NY the Knicks would have won a championship. But seriously, overpaying restricted free-agents to pry them out of Milwaukee just isn’t a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. It can wait another year.

      (And btw, the teams that leased their 2010 cap space to desperate LeBron-a-thon teams are two of the best teams today: Houston and Washington)

    47. To those of you who think that the Knicks should have gotten a 1st round pick for Shumpert, look at it from the other team’s perspective. What would you think if the Knicks had traded a 2015 or 2016 first round pick for an often and currently injured defensive specialist on an expiring deal who has done nothing to improve his game in four years, seems to have a fragile ego, regularly goes into prolonged shooting funks, has had 12 good offensive games in the last year and a half, has regressed statistically both offensively and defensively for the last three years, has a career TS% of .484, defensive ratings the last two years of 108 and 111 and offensive ratings the last two years of 100 and 99? You would probably be screaming that the front office was stupid and incompetent to give up a valuable asset for a crappy player who is destined to either leave the team or get overpaid this summer. And guess what — you would be 100% right to scream. Maybe he was worth a first a year or two ago, but there was no way any team was giving up a first round pick for him this year.

    48. There has been a lot of doom and gloom abt the Knicks (and rightfully so), but I can’t do that for 4 more months, so I am thinking about best case Phil scenarios.

      I see some potential sensible paths to follow. I don’t have specifics, just a plain old common sense strategy to acquire good assets. If Phil does that, he is investing in the future of team’s success and developing potential trade chips for a superstar at the same time.

      Assuming that Melo aint going nowhere and needs to play the 4 to be effective, Phil needs a great center and to surround him with above average wings and guards.

      1) He tries to find cheap young guys that can play D. He can worry about offense later. This season should be about establishing a focus on D.
      2) If he finds a good young big before the draft he takes Okafur. If not, he drafts Towns.
      3) He makes an initial run at Gasol and LMA, but once it is obvious he isn’t getting them, he moves quickly to use FA money to acquire quality wing assets like Harris and Mathews…at reasonable rates. This is where Phil will prove his worth.
      4) Use D-League prospects and vets to round out the roster

      That 2015-2016 NYKs will be better but still mediocre. Depends on Fisher’s abilities.

      Summer of 2016 moves in one of two ways.

      If Durant is really trying to leave, OKC is likely going to trade him. And they will trade him to the team that can give them quality assets back. They won’t want Melo, but they may want Okafur/Towns and some veteran wings to pair with Russ.

      If we strike out there, then we are banking on our young talent developing to help Melo become a winner. If Melo is not interested in staying, we facilitate a trade for draft picks and more young assets and we are set up for a future for real.

      The Knicks have made a lot of mistakes over the years and we all knew, in our heart of hearts, that they had to hit rock bottom before things legitimately got better. It’s here. Let’s embrace it!

    49. Those trades all had picks involved.

      What kind of “assets” do you think we could have gotten for Shumpert instead? I would argue that that asset is of lesser value than losing JR, whom I loathe.

      This was a good deal. Ain’t nobody giving a first rounder for Shump.
      (Not to mention even in his own draft he would have dropped significantly if we replayed it; all of these players were drafted AFTER Shumpert: Singleton, Tobias harris, Motiejunas, Nolan Smith, Kenneth Faried, (sigh) Nikola Mirotic, (sigh x 2) Reggie Jackson, MarShon Brooks, Norris Cole, (sigh x 3) Jimmy Butler, Bogdanovic, Cory Joseph, Kyle Singler Trey Thompkins, CHANDLER PARSONS, Jeremy Tyler, Isaiah Thomas.)

    50. Remember when Dalembert was supposed to replace Chandler, as in, like, productivity-wise and all. Because Chandler only takes shots at the rim, and any tall player can get that done.

      ::punts self in groin::

    51. So Donnie- what would you rather we have done? Keep Shump at $10MM per year (which is what he would likely have gotten on the open market if he looked halfway decent after recovering from the shoulder) and keep JR for 2016? Then rent out the residual cap space to other teams?

    52. Seriously, those who are lamenting this trade, please consider that this is the worst team in team history. I again note, I was criticized a while back for saying this team was as bad as any Starbury team.
      Fact is they are far, far worse than I imagined.
      JR has been a bad influence from day 1, and Shump has never reached potential and in fact regressed, so please stop.
      There is not one player on this team worth keeping. Not one player on this team.
      There isn’t a bench guy or starter that is a keeper. That includes the ‘great’ Melo.
      Max players are supposed to lift a team, make teammates better, elevate.
      Melo isn’t that guy. Indeed, under the new system he was as likely as not to break out of the system and pound the ball in an isolation play.
      He hasn’t bought in, or lacks the IQ to understand the system.

      They have five wins!
      Blowing it up is the only sane thing to do. How long have the Knicks limped along trying to match mismatched pieces, overcome a losing mentality, and get by on limited talent?
      They have poor prospective players, their D-league team isn’t good, so what are we holding onto?
      And how soon would people explode if suddenly the Knicks did what they have always done, use up expiring contracts to overpay players near to the end of their prime without a plan for how these pieces fit?
      Recall a young team assembled around Stat, sent away to get back Melo, who basically played the same game as Stat. Mismatch. And we see what we got.
      5 and 34 or something?
      What they hell are we saving?
      Blow…it…up…
      I said it last year before they signed Melo.
      I say it again.
      Blow it up.

    53. Who doesn’t think the Knicks haven’t blown it up? Really? This is a full blown rebuild.

    54. Frank O., I’m going to need you to stop disrespecting Cole like that.

      Rumored the Cavs are going to use the OKC first to land Mozgov. Amazing that Melo trade is still fucking us.

    55. OKC really was willing to give up their 2014 First Round pick for Shumpert, because they did not want to have a 2014 First Round pick. OKC ended up using that pick on a D-League stash who agreed to take no money.

    56. So it’s Jackson’s fault that previous GM’s didn’t trade Shump and that Shump’s value has since declined? That makes sense. Not to mention the fact that the Knicks weren’t even trying to rebuild until just about now anyway.

      @Jowles. Dalembert had high wp/48 numbers the last few years, so that does seem like a reasonable claim. Not quite Chandler-esque but a sufficient replacement if there ever was one.

    57. OKC has some shitty ownership. They’re going to squander one of the greatest young cores ever assembled because they’re too fucking cheap. Small market? You motherfuckers chose the market!

    58. Cole is definitely worth keeping, as is Prigioni.

      Quincy Acy is still young and has put up decent numbers.

      Early and Larkin are young enough to improve.

      Melo is “meh” either way until the right deal comes along.

      Everyone else is garbage.

    59. So Donnie- what would you rather we have done? Keep Shump at $10MM per year (which is what he would likely have gotten on the open market if he looked halfway decent after recovering from the shoulder) and keep JR for 2016? Then rent out the residual cap space to other teams?

      So he’s a $10 million player on the open market but he had no trade value?

    60. So he’s a $10 million player on the open market but he had no trade value?

      he’s a rental for the rest of this season. Rentals are always worth way less in the trade market.
      at 2.5MM/year he’s a good deal. At $10MM he’s an awful deal. But someone will pony up $ for him.

      I think it’s extremely likely he gets an Avery Bradley-type deal, even though he’s probably worse than Bradley in most ways (other than that he’s bigger and can theoretically guard 3’s). Would you clog up our cap space with his cap hold and then pay him $8-10MM? I say no, as much as I love Shump.

    61. This WAS his trade value. A 2nd rounder and JR-dump. Lavor Postell above made an excellent comparison to Rondo and Deng, both traded on expiring contracts – but better players. Rondo yielded Brandan Wright and a 1st rounder; Deng got two 2nd rounders. Shump ain’t no Deng.

    62. Iman Shumpert is going to thrive as a Cleveland Cavalier when he’s playing between Kyrie Irving and LeBron James. All he will have to do is catch, shoot, attack, and defend. He’ll be worth the money they pay him.

    63. It’s pretty funny that most of the people who are ruing the Shump trades not made were the ones who were saying that they would not have made them at the time.

      The bottom line is that Phil is not a dumb man. I think he’s going to go out and see if he can sign 2 of the top players on the market say Gasol and Dragic and then he gets rebuffed (and the press rakes him over the coals for not being able to sell Gasol on a rebuild) then he will use the space on trying to add volume assets from the 2nd and 3rd tier of the market.

    64. Yeah Shump is perfect as a 4th or 5th option. Problem with here is that he was always asked to be then 2nd or 3rd option. And if we were to pay him $10MM he’d be stuck as a 3rd option at least.

      Hopefully he kills it out there in cleveland. one of my favorite knicks ever (although i’m not so sure why).

    65. RUNNING TAB OF PHIL JACKSON STUFF:
      (not counting the 2013/2014 seasons’ one-year/expiring people, e.g., Beno, Chris Smith)

      OUT: Tyson Chandler, Raymond Felton, JR Smith, Iman Shumpert

      IN: Shane Larkin, Quincy Acy, Jose Calderon, 2014 1st rounder (Cleanthony Early), 2014 2nd rounders (Antetokounpo, Labeyrie), Lance Thomas, 2019 2nd round OKC pick, (to waive: Alex Kirk, Lou Amundson)

      Receiving picks and younger players? Inconceivable!
      Not bad so far.

    66. Donnie,
      the problem with 2010 was the Knicks panicked when Lebron didn’t work.
      They had no real plan B.
      In panicking they selected a guy – who I loved – whose body could not be insured. It was a high risk move that looked like it might pay off because they Knicks assembled young talent that was fun and appeared to be improving. Hard to know how that team might have come together, but it would have been intriguing to see, and you can’t really trust judging the players after the trade because their circumstances changed.
      How might have Gallo and Chandler and Balkman and fields and Jeffries and Mosgov and Stat, etc., played together?
      We’ll never know because of Dolan.

    67. “Hopefully he kills it out there in cleveland. one of my favorite knicks ever (although i’m not so sure why).”

      Frank, because he was a drop of water in a vast desert. But just a drop.

    68. Also don’t forget the Mike D’Antoni “I’m gonna ride him like Secretariat” philosophy w Amare averaging close to 40 mins a night that first season. It would have been nice to see the team develop w those young guys plus Amare and a coach who understood his players’ bodies.

    69. How might have Gallo and Chandler and Balkman and fields and Jeffries and Mosgov and Stat, etc., played together?
      We’ll never know because of Dolan.

      I agree in theory but 2 of these guys are majorly injury prone in Stat and Gallo. Chandler , Fields , Balkman are shit players. Mozzy was the only one with any kind of promise and hes already 28.

    70. There are some decent looking players in the dleague, but our callups last year don’t fill me with hope

    71. Do you all think we should have kept Shump? For what?

      I don’t think we should have kept him. But I’m discouraged that we sold low on him, like we did with Tyson. And I’m discouraged that, by using him as sweetener to save money on next year’s cap, it indicates we might just have traded him in order to bring in the next guy we’ll need to use sweetener to get rid of.

    72. I’m sad we sold low on Shump but at this point, his value probably had nowhere to go but down both in terms of trade value and overall ROI. The best deals in the NBA (not counting guys like Dirk etc. who are purposely underpaid) are rookie scale contracts and max contracts on true franchise cornerstones. Shump is almost certainly about to turn from an ok ROI (if you consider his inconsistency and injury history) to almost certainly a poor one.

      Re: Tyson – yeah, that’s proved to be a really terrible trade unless Early and/or Thanasis turn out to be rotation players. They’re both probably at least a couple years away.

    73. Keep Shump at $10MM per year (which is what he would likely have gotten on the open market if he looked halfway decent after recovering from the shoulder) and keep JR for 2016? Then rent out the residual cap space to other teams?

      I think some people here have been Knick fans too long. Stockholm Syndrome anyone?

      As Brian rightfully responded, if Shumpert is worth $10 mil on the open market, then he has value on a trade market more than for a straight dump. With him go his Bird rights, so it’s not really a rental. And ultimately whoever pays him next year will presumably want him.

      I think Phil inherited a bad roster. I needed to be rebuilt from the ground up. But Phil didn’t do that. He invested 5 years into Carmelo Anthony and has pinned his hopes on the. 2015 free agent class which is, realistically, not all that exciting of a class. It’s a clear path to .500 and a few playoff games, but it is NOT a full rebuild (something that any other organization would have committed to years ago).

      To rebuild, the Knicks would have:

      A) S&T’s Anthony or let him walk for nothing.

      B) waived Felton and Smith and paid them their full contracts through 2015-2016.

      C) traded Tyson Chandler and Iman Shumpert for either picks or young players.

      D) put young players on the floor who aren’t painful for high-paying fans to watch to at least make the season viewing experience somewhat bearable.

      These were all within Phil Jackson’s autonomous powers. Instead we are 5-31, but at least Felton and Smith are gone. Yay!

    74. The Times ran an article asking for suggestions for a good basketball team for their Knicks beat writer to cover. Ouch

    75. I didn’t think bird rights went with you anymore if you were traded in the last year of your contract, or something.

    76. Donnie,
      the problem with 2010 was the Knicks panicked when Lebron didn’t work.

      No. Amar’e was signed first, before the decision, to sell to LeBron as his wingman.

      Walsh wisely didn’t panic after the Decision didn’t go his way. He used the remaining cap space on Felton, Mozgov, and the trio of Warriors obtained in the Lee trade. He diversified the roster as best he could after trading picks and Hill to free up the max offer to LeBron. It was Dolan who panicked six months later and demanded the 2nd star.

      But this is all moot to Phil’s situation. The roster Phil inherited was bad, but it is nothing compared to what Walsh inherited in 2008. He had $42 million in 4 players that ran into 2011. Phil had Felton and Smith making a combined $10 mil. And the class of 2015 doesn’t have a transcendent player in it that the Knicks have any kind of shot at.

    77. The way I see it, This team can only really compete if Melo is our 3rd best player. If we can get Okafor, that’s one. Then maybe we sign Leonard or a great pg and fill the rest of the slots with gems like Seth Curry et al. I have faith in Team Jax!

    78. Brian Cronin January 6, 2015 at 10:56 am

      I agree that it’s 2 above-average starters. I just think it’ll be 2 above-average starters plus room to sign a much lesser player. Take Beverley for instance, can the Rockets even afford to match a $12 million offer on him?

      taking this from the thread from yesterday

      $12m for Beverley seems awfully high. I think Houston will probably be at around $63M if they cut Brewer, revoke Sved’s rights, and pick up Papa’s option.

      I think $7.5m is a lot for Beverley.

    79. No. Amar’e was signed first, before the decision, to sell to LeBron as his wingman.

      Walsh wisely didn’t panic after the Decision didn’t go his way. He used the remaining cap space on Felton, Mozgov, and the trio of Warriors obtained in the Lee trade. He diversified the roster as best he could after trading picks and Hill to free up the max offer to LeBron. It was Dolan who panicked six months later and demanded the 2nd star.

      This is all ancient history, but Donnie Walsh was NOT blameless in how this all went down. First, he hired an offense only coach in D’Antoni who clearly did not appeal to Lebron (who talked lots about defense during his FA tour). He very easily could have hired Tom Thibodeau. He then decided that Amare, who also plays no defense, was going to be the sales agent to Lebron, and we all know how that turned out. Now it’s true that he made lemonade out of lemons after that, but his two major decisions – who are the coach and co-star to sell to other FAs — were major strikeouts.

      Let’s not also forget that he seemingly panicked after Curry was taken off the board in the 2009 draft and selected Jordan Hill, who everyone knew was going to suck. Team needed a point guard and he left Lawson, Holiday, Teague, Collison etc. on the board.

      And maybe this was an impossible job, but his express purpose in being brought in was to curb the worst of Dolan — and he couldn’t do it.

    80. “This team can only really compete if Melo is our 3rd best player”

      Agree with the sentiment, but I think “2nd best player” works. That better player must do things Melo does not: leading, passing, defense. Someone Melo will defer to.

      Whatever. We’re not getting a better player than Melo any time soon. I don’t think Okafor will be “better” than Melo in the next 2-3 years at least.

    81. Beverley is just an okay player though really. He gets a good amount of shine because he plays for a pretty good team and he’s sort of a fun player, but I don’t think he’s top-15 in his position in the league. He’s a slightly below average starter in the league as his position. That would obviously be an upgrade over what the Knicks have thrown out there at PG for the most part in quite some time, but it’s not exactly going to catapult us from one of the worst teams in league history to title contender. Even if we’re paying him only $7.5M instead of $10M, it’s not exactly a game changer I don’t think.

    82. That better player must do things Melo does not: leading, passing, defense. Someone Melo will defer to.

      It’s a short list of players that Melo would proably defer to. LeBron and Chris Paul immediately come to mind.. Melo was awesome on Team USA because he was indeed the 3rd/4th/5th best player on that roster and was surrounded by people he would defer to. By himself we all know he is flawed and isn’t very conducive to the team concept. I don’t see any impactful players to go after this summer who would be a “check” on Melo unfortunately.

    83. It’s a short list of players that Melo would proably defer to

      Melo doesnt need to defer to anyone, he just needs other good high iq vets on the team. Starting with a PG and good defenders and shooters. Hell every team needs this.

    84. For an optimistic model, look at the Indiana Pacers team that did well and reached the conference finals two years running. Not a single key player was drafted higher than 10th. And some of their key players were traded for before they were so good. So good teams can be built without having several highly paid free agents or top draft picks.

    85. This team is still gonna be bad in 2015-2016 and it’s only a matter of time until we’re in the midst of MeloDrama III. Sooner or later dude WILL start demanding to be traded. The sooner the better obviously.

    86. @er:
      Yeah, exactly what I meant. Someone to take over leading. Because he does not lead, and when he feels like he is the only good player on the team, MEGAMAXISOMELO occurs.
      Agreed: If a Kidd-like player came to the team, that would be best.

    87. This team is still gonna be bad in 2015-2016 and it’s only a matter of time until we’re in the midst of MeloDrama III. Sooner or later dude WILL start demanding to be traded. The sooner the better obviously.

      Can we at least have a roster first for 2015-16?

    88. Or a KG-like player, for defense, a la what happened when he teamed with Pierce. No one like that out there anymore?

    89. The knicks should really follow the Portland model and build around Melo like he was Aldridge.
      Easier said than done I guess.

    90. If I knew Durant was coming here, I could tolerate another bad season and grabbing another 1st round pick (oh wait, Bargs, the gift that keeps on giving)

      Everyone attributes the lack of our 2016 pick to Bargs but really that is still part of the cost of the Melo trade. We gave them swap rights (you know, because Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov, Felton, last year’s lottery pick, and taking Billups’ contract back wasn’t enough). In fact, I’m 99% sure the fact that the pick was guaranteed to be the lesser of two picks is what made us think it was worth giving up for Bargs. In my mind, our lack of control over our pick in 2016 is directly attributable to Melo, not Bargs.

      And I’m sorry, Dolan may have been an idiot, but I blame Walsh for not at least making sure these picks weren’t protected. 100% I blame Walsh. Because there is no way Denver would have balked at the trade if we had thrown in top 10 protection, and there is no way Dolan should have figured to think of that. That was Donnie’s negligence.

    91. You know the best thing about this trade? It gives us something to argue about. It was pretty boring around here for the last month or so when the only argument was whether this team is historically awful or merely awful.

    92. Walsh is to blame for some things. I agree the D’Antoni hire wasn’t a good fit, and the LeBron-or-bust strategy went bust, which obviously hurts his legacy here. But he didn’t want to do the Carmelo trade. He thought it was too much to give up. He was fired over it.

      Re:Indiana– that is an optimistic model, as is Golden State, with their starting lineup of 4 home grown players all drafted with picks #7 and up. The problem is, you need draft picks to build and, as stated above, we give ours away for players that are famous.

      Indiana didn’t ever package players to dump unwanted salary. In fact, when they traded their declining and expensive Jermaine Oneal contract, owed $40+ million at the time, they took on a longer contract (Ford) and got a 1st round draft pick which turned out to be Roy Hibbert (who became a foundation for said recent success). So yes, look to the Bird model in Indiana to see how a good franchise is run. But don’t confuse it with what the Knicks do here in NY.

    93. Also look at what Dallas was able to do after they struck out on FA’s

      To think, D-Will would be a Mav right now if Mark Cuban was not filming an episode of Shark Tank at the time

    94. Who cares about this trade? Shump needed a change of scenery to prove if he´s a rotation player for a good team or just a mediocre one and I like the team better without Jr, we could have cut him and use the stretch provision though. I suppose that a sixers win over cleveland, a second round and a chance to evaluate some young players is fine.
      For this summer I hope Phil realizes that Carmelo at the SF position is just inviable on the defensive end and constructs a team with him as a 4 were I think could be an ok defender if you add athleticism on the wings. In the draft if we can get Okafor or Towns I´ll start free agency with max offers to Leonard, Jimmy Butler and Tobias Harris but I expect the Spurs, Bulls and Magic to match so we should turn to the likes of Mathews, Afflalo, Henderson, Crowder…fill the wings with two way players. As a personal choice I would offer some money to Kyle Singler, really liked him in europe during the lockout season. Then if we still have some money we should get another serviceable point guard (impress me here phil). If we don’t get Okafor or Towns take Stanley Johnson, hope he can be a nice starting 3 and go after a FA big (Robin Lopez, Millsap, Asik, Koufos…).
      Those are a lot of holes to fill even for 27mill. so I can’t see us really competing for the next 3-4 seasons but if we make good use of the money we should be fine. After that way we must remain flexible, develop some players, be patient and wait for a real opportunity to become real contenders. There´s not a quick fix for this team, but a sound management would help a ton.

    95. If you’re gonna throw max offers at restricted free agents, you might want to start with Draymond Green. Unlike Leonard and Butler, GS would have to think long and hard about matching, and as a passing/rebounding/defending forward he may cover up all the flaws in Carmelo Anthony’s game.

      But it’s dangerous business trying to poach restricted FAs in July. Not only is it expensive, but there is a timing element (and a political element, a la Landry Fields and Jeremy Lin) than can mess with some best laid plans.

      I’d rather rebuild through the draft over a 4 year cycle, like pretty much every good team in the NBA has done to become good.

    96. I agree with Donnie in the sense that we had plenty of opportunities to trade Shump for better assets in the past, and that using him as sweetener now is, comparatively, a prodigious waste, but I think that, at this point in the season, his value was dropping precipitously. Teams knew that we either had to resign him or let him walk, and they knew we intended on getting rid of him, so they had all the leverage. At this point, so late in the game, why not use Shump as sweetener for a JR dump? We could have gotten much better deals in the past (especially if ever chose to just eat JR’s contract and deal Shump solo or with THJr for something), but now, I don’t think there was ever going to be a more productive offer around the corner that wasn’t at an inordinate risk of breaking down due to leverage issues and leaving us with an RFA we had the full intention of letting go.

      We’re not going into a full rebuild, which is stupid, but we were locked into trying for contention since the Melo mega-max (or maybe even the first Melo trade, which along with the Bargnani trade is historically awful)–Phil is an old man and seems to only want to operate under a 5 year plan. That in itself is moronic; but it’s what we’re stuck with, so within the context of that plan I think this was the better decision. If we let Shump walk and ate JRs contract we’d be probably be just 2m in cap for 2015 and a 2nd round draft pick poorer. Either way, the needle doesn’t move much, but at least now we can take fliers on players like Galloway or Seth Curry.

      Ultimately though Jackson hasn’t been good. The Chandler trade sucked and we definitely should have gotten more. Let’s hope he improves by the trade deadline or during the offseason.

    97. I mean I’d rather go full Hinkie too but that just doesn’t seem like a reality in most NBA front offices, never mind the Knicks’

    98. How many people here ripped Teague apart when the rumored Shump trade for him first came out last year? I’m not going to look it up, but I think the majority of people here were all like “Lolz, Teague has a 52 TS% and he can’t shoot 3’s so he sucks hahahaha”. Same thing with the rumored OKC trade for a late 1st which most people said was selling low on Shump.

      The fact of the matter is Shump fucking sucked ass again this year, despite being given a defined and prominent role within the offense. He also regressed massively on defense, including the epic loss to Orlando in which Evan fucking Fournier ripped him a new asshole for 15 points in like the first 6 minutes of the game. Shump gave us some good memories, but those memories seem to cloud the months of sulking attitude, unintelligent defense and piss poor shooting. I was pretty high on Shump to start the year, but after a supernova start he came crashing back down to earth unlike one Jimmy Butler.

      So flash forward a few months and Tyson Chandler is traded for two 2nd rounders and Shump is traded for OKC’s 1st rounder (but it goes to Cleveland, not us!)

      Chandler got moved for two 2nd round picks No. 34 and No. 51 and the previous year’s No. 18th overall pick. The 34th pick is a shit ton more valuable for various reasons than a late first. You can shit on the Calderon part of the deal but you’re just blindly making up bullshit when you act like the Knicks didn’t value acquiring youth or assets in trading him away.

      You can ignore it all you want but Shump was never getting a first round pick after last year’s trade deadline which Phil Jackson wasn’t in charge for. Rondo on an expiring went for a 1st rd pick in 2016 and Brandan Wright and Luol Deng on an expiring went for two 2nd round picks. Both those guys were traded also with Bird Rights for their team and it didn’t magically increase their trade value.

    99. Declining the option on Larkin’s contract was kind of a bizarre move. Larkin is only 22, and while he hasn’t been great, he hasn’t embarrassed himself either. The Knicks could have had him back on an ultra-cheap contract. If the plan is to stock up on free agents next year, wouldn’t it be handy to have a 23-year old point guard with a bit of room to grow for $1.6M? Worst case scenario you could flip Larkin for something of some value.

    100. @110

      Larkin isn’t going to get more than $1.6m and has spoken about how much he enjoys playing under Fisher. I don’t think he’s going anywhere.

    101. Rondo on an expiring went for a 1st rd pick in 2016 and Brandan Wright and Luol Deng on an expiring went for two 2nd round picks. Both those guys were traded also with Bird Rights for their team and it didn’t magically increase their trade value.

      You need to at least be on par w/ Air Bargnani to be worth a first rounder. See, we DO have assets!

      Seriously, every GM in the league we talk trade with expects us to overpay, so breaking even is kind of a win (except that the cupboard is now bare).

    102. Shane Larkin is the 3rd point guard for the worst team in the NBA. He’s probably not getting big money offers.

    103. Shane belongs on a team that runs more PNR. That’s what he excelled at in college. I’m definitely not sweating us losing Shane Larkin. Aaron Brooks is better and he’s a vet’s minimum guy. And there are tons of undersized guards who probably aren’t that great in the D-League. One of them is now on the Knicks – Langston Galloway (who I actually like!).

      Larkin’s absolute ceiling is JJ Barea but he doesn’t seem to nearly have the craftiness (ie. flopping) that JJ has. And JJ is horribly overpaid at 4 or 5MM/year or whatever he’s getting.

      Rumor is now that we’re going to drop Lance Thomas also in order to free up another roster spot. What do we need all these roster spots for? Something else must be cooking.

    104. I didn’t think bird rights went with you anymore if you were traded in the last year of your contract, or something.

      Only if that last season is a one-year deal. So if Shump accepted the Knicks’ qualifying offer this offseason then next year he wouldn’t have been able to be traded along with his Bird Rights. I have absolutely no idea why such a rule exists, but it’s there. Anyone have an idea why this rule is on the books?

    105. Are we sure that both SAS and CHI are matching max offers for Leonard and Butler?

      Yes. Especially since the cap is about to rise, so the luxury cap will also rise.

    106. he’s a rental for the rest of this season. Rentals are always worth way less in the trade market.
      at 2.5MM/year he’s a good deal. At $10MM he’s an awful deal. But someone will pony up $ for him.

      I think it’s extremely likely he gets an Avery Bradley-type deal, even though he’s probably worse than Bradley in most ways (other than that he’s bigger and can theoretically guard 3’s). Would you clog up our cap space with his cap hold and then pay him $8-10MM? I say no, as much as I love Shump.

      He’s not a rental since they’re acquiring his Bird Rights. If Avery Bradley was traded last season, he would have received decent offers.

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