Knicks Morning News (2024.12.23)

50 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.12.23)”

Listening this morning to Sam Vecenie’s podcast talking about the bind the Kings might find themselves in with Fox, since apparently Klutch is angling for him to go elsewhere in the offseason if he doesn’t think Sacramento can contender. (And/or if he doesn’t make All-NBA this year, since if he does, the Kings can pay him so much more than anybody else.) Vecenie’s partner wonders in hindsight if the Kings might have tried to get in on KAT if they had known he was really available, since Sabonis is a better version of Randle. Which in turn takes us back to the discussion about the actual KAT deal. Did the entire league know Minnesota was willing to move him, and this was just the best deal the Wolves could get that would 1)alleviate some of their upcoming financial crunch, and 2)theoretically keep them competitive in the here and now? Or did Leon make this happen without the rest of the league even knowing that KAT was gettable?

Towns obviously wanted to be back in New York. Did he have a way to exert any leverage? Did the wolves do him a solid perhaps?

Considering how surprised Towns was by the deal, I can’t imagine they consulted him, Owen. Though you may be right that they didn’t want to send him to a place they suspected he didn’t want to go.

Towns obviously wanted to be back in New York. Did he have a way to exert any leverage? Did the wolves do him a solid perhaps?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6008884/2024/12/20/karl-anthony-towns-timberwolves-return-knicks-trade/?source=freeweeklyemail&campaign=602288&userId=6142506

Seems to me like KAT had no input, but who knows? More likely a combo of getting back good value (?) and having a less extreme media narrative. Seems like KAT was truly beloved in Minny, so shipping him off to the Kings might have seemed too cold of a move.

Still, it’s shocking that they would rather have parted with the face of the franchise who happens to be a first-class human being than a weirdo mercenary like Gobert or lesser players like Naz or McDaniels. Seems like they could have gotten an even better return for Gobert. Just a bad, bad decision, even with a better version of DDV.

If I were the GM of the Kings last summer, I would have pegged KAT and Sabonis at similar levels, particularly when you factor in health. And given Sabonis’ fit with the organisation I would not have engaged in KAT talks assuming I knew they were going on. If Sabonis is not gettable, Julius becomes the best and likely only option–and if they can’t strike a deal with Leon, KAT stays put. So I think that Minny (not Leon) made this happen without the rest of the league knowing.

Soooo…Shamet’s back.
Does this mean that when he plays, and if he makes a bad play, that we can yell “AH SHAMET MAN!”?

*shrugs and walks away*

SI has an interesting trade proposal.

Essentially Poeltl for Mitch and Precious + a pick or two. I don’t think Ujiri would go for it, but I sure would be intrigued. It would shorten up our bench even more, but Poeltl is damn good.

Based on what we know, It seems like DDV was a pretty important part of the KAT deal. He’s had a disappointing season for them so far, but no one knew that going into the deal.

Trading Gobert probably made no sense to them. The reason they added Gobert to begin with was because they were skeptical of being able to contend with Towns at C. They gave up so much for him, there’s no way they would have gotten back as much. So it would have looked bad to bail out so quickly. Their thinking was probably they could get 85% of Towns with Randle and with DDV added in be similar to last year. Towns just exploded forward this year at C and makes it all look worse.

Ugh no. I think Mitch & Achiuwa alone is an overpay for a backup 5. Even one as good as “Purtle”. Nonetheless, I’d be thrilled to add him, but it would mean we’d have to add a true 4 who can shoot better than Achiuwa

“So I think that Minny (not Leon) made this happen without the rest of the league knowing.”

If so, it only makes Connelly look even more dumb. Perhaps kind-hearted, but dumb.

Listening this morning to Sam Vecenie’s podcast talking about the bind the Kings might find themselves in with Fox, since apparently Klutch is angling for him to go elsewhere in the offseason if he doesn’t think Sacramento can contender.

The only bind Sacto is in with Fox is if they don’t move him soon. He is looking at a 55M/yr extension this off season and should by some miracle he makes All NBA he will be eligible for the highest contract in league history.

All for a low efficiency (.558 TS%) high volume chucker (33% career 3 ball) over 16,000 minutes.

Poeltl’s stats might be suffering because of the Raps have been decimated by injuries and he is at a 19% usage. But he’s durable and available and can do pretty much anything Mitch can do just as well if not better.

Anyway, I don’t know if the trade is even possible given our cap situation.

Fox is really really good – the Kings’ main issue is that with Sabonis at the 5 they’re just not good enough on defense, and Sabonis himself is not the supercharger of offense that KAT has proven to be. Leon and co then surrounded KAT/Brunson with Bridges/Hart/OG – shooting and sort-of playmaking on offense, and versatility/greatness on defense — whereas the Kings went all offense I guess? with Derozan and Malik Monk in the starting lineup. Their young talent isn’t great (Keegan Murray seems to be regressing) – i am not sure what they do at this point. Prob not enough assets to make a real move, but they seem too invested to tear it all down. If you ask me I would do the latter.

Minnesota also likely thought that Naz Reid was capable of, to paraphrase Z-man, providing them 80 percent of what KAT gives them for a fraction of the cost. That has not quite worked out yet, though the fact that Randle starts and consumes so much usage may make it hard to know for sure.

Minnesota also likely thought that Naz Reid was capable of, to paraphrase Z-man, providing them 80 percent of what KAT gives them for a fraction of the cost. That has not quite worked out yet, though the fact that Randle starts and consumes so much usage may make it hard to know for sure.

Having Naz was part of their thinking, but without Randle they would have taken a huge hit because then you don’t have Naz on the bench playing a huge role backing up both PF/C. He would be the starting PF giving you even less than Randle.

I think their miscalcuation was that the spacing with Randle is worse than with Towns and that impacts Antman and others negatively. And of course Towns is better on offense at C and rebounds better so it looks even worse “stats wise” this year. Towns would not be having this kind of year if he was still playing next to Gobert.

Then of course DDV has been bad (why I am less sure but he could just be unhappy and want out). If DDV was shooting like last year, they would have a better record and there would be less panic over the deal.

Ultimately, they may trade both Randle and DDV and try to bring back a stretch PF that fits with Gobert and someone that actually wants to be there.

Precious and Dadiet for Reid and DDV. Let’s do it. (Mostly kidding. MIN would have to be ultra-stupid to take us up on such a thing.)

We are prohibited from re-acquiring DDV directly from Minny until next year. If I remember correctly, he’d have to be waived, then acquired by a second team, then traded, or something like that.

I was surprised not to have heard anything about pre- and/or post-game interactions between DDV and Brunsons (both Jalen and Rick)/Hart/Mikal stemming from last week’s game.

In olden times, no one would have expected to hear about such things, but the way the media reports things these days, it was weird *not* to hear about it.

Doogie, there was reporting that Julius left the arena immediately after the game, without talking to either his former teammates or the media. Between that and the KAT homecoming stuff, there may just not have been much bandwidth left for Villanova reunion reporting. Though I was at least curious to see if there was any followup to Donte beefing with Rick Brunson.

We won the trade because we’ve made KAT at the 5 work and they couldn’t.

It seems like other than Randle who is in his own head, the Wolves were in “let KAT have his night” mode. I suspect that Randle took it as a “F U Julius” thing, from the crowd for sure (he was actively booed) but from his teammates as well (doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of love lost there.) I certainly didn’t see an edge to either Gobert’s or Ant’s game. Not to mention that in addition to Wolves fans all in KAT’s corner, there was the usual sizeable contingent of Knicks fans in the building (you can tell how many whenever Deuce goes up for a jumper.)

Trap game tonight, then an interesting test on Christmas Day. Looking very forward to that one!

think they wanted the flexibility from randle’s $30mm player option and donte’s movable deal. sabonis locked in at $47mm a year from 26-28 doesn’t go far enough to solving their repeater tax constraints after paying $96mm in luxury taxes this year to justify dealing kat. obviously would prove untrue if they ended up giving randle a sabonis-adjacent deal but that seems unlikely to me.

“We won the trade because we’ve made KAT at the 5 work and they couldn’t.”

The result of it “not working” was a trip to the conference finals.

Yeah, I’m not ready to do a victory lap quite yet on us solving KAT at the 5. We’ve seen it work incredibly well in some games here, but we also saw that in Minnesota prior to the Gobert trade. Until we prove that a defense with him playing center can make a deep playoff run — really, multiple deep playoff runs, assuming the first one doesn’t end in the first title of most of our lifetimes as Knicks fans — then all we’ve done is unlocked a little more of an offensive game that was already wonderful to begin with.

We still won the trade, though.

I ain’t mad at 3/75 for Manaea

I ain’t mad at 3/75 for Manaea

Ain’t mad? We should be ecstatic! That’s a hell of a deal in a free agent pitching market where Max Fried got 8 years at around the same per year salary on the wrong side of 30, despite never pitching 200 inning season once in his career and breaking down during 2 of his 5 leasons in his prime. He gave us a discount as far as I can see.

Honestly, Randle is on a difficult position. Every time a Wolves fan looks at him they are going to be thinking about giving up KAT for him. He’s going to have an almost impossible task making them happy with him. He makes a lot less than Towns, wasn’t traded by himself for Towns, and shouldn’t be expected to be as good as Towns, but fans still feel he should be as good. Randle’s not the sort of guy to let that roll off his back. It’s got to be hard on him.

I just love how Stearns is methodically solidifying the organizational roster from megastars down to the farm system with big, medium, and small moves.

Yeah, I feel bad for Randle, an imperfect player who nonetheless gave us a lot of great memories over four seasons playing under Thibs, and who was rewarded for that with a trade that put him in a deeply unenviable place. Financially, it seems to make the most sense for him to use his player option and then try free agency a summer from now. But I wonder if he might want to get out of Minnesota by any means necessary.

Ant Edwards seems like an issue in Minny, even if Randle is taking the flak.

Is he really a superstar? Never been in that camp.

May still happen but the thought of him on a super max might make me queasy.

RJ did not play last night, and as of right now is also not likely to play tonight. Ja’Kobe Walter new season/career high alert tonight!

I just love how Stearns is methodically solidifying the organizational roster from megastars down to the farm system with big, medium, and small moves.

Yep, a lot of Mets fans have worried about the fact that Stearns didn’t do enough in FA pitching market to address the advantage which the Dodgers showed in the playoffs. But the problem is I don’t see how you create a pitching staff via free agency that is dominant enough to overcome our weaknesses against the Dodgers, either. There is no quick fix. And overpaying for guys like Fried or Barnes isn’t a surefire way of bridging that gap. I think Stearns realizes it will take a long-term, delicate process of putting the parts together that will sustain a formidible rotation–and that doesn’t necessarily mean getting the shiniest toy in the FA pitching market.

Stearns seems to look at floors as much as ceilings as his primary approach. Then he puts an upside on top of it. Last offseason was about raising the floor and ensuring that there was the depth to maintain that level even if things go wrong. Then, when he sees a chance to truly raise the upside (Soto), he does that. Again, they were in on Yamamoto last year and would have kept going, but the Yamamoto people told them to stop bidding. I think they’ll be all-in on Sasaki in whatever non-financial way. I don’t think he looked at this group of pitchers and saw anybody else to go that far with, so the rest is to create depth and raise the floor.

I’m thinking RJ plays, he is coming off of some kind of bug, practiced yesterday but then puked so was held out but I doubt he’d miss a Knicks game unless he was literally dying.

Randle is definitely presenting Minny with some familiar issues–infuriating levels of effort defensively, pounding the rock, turnovers you can see coming a mile away…we’ve all seen the play.

But I wholeheartedly agree with the notion that he’s getting more than his fair share of the blame. Minnesota fans by and large don’t want to admit that Ant, while immensely talented and, in my subjective opinion, capable of being the lead initiator on a contending team, has to this point not been that guy consistently.

I’m bullish on his capability because he’s been the rare player who actually overperforms in the playoffs, indicating some level of active load management, for lack of a better term, during the regular season. That’s all well and good when you have a 56 win team. Much less so when the play-in is an open question.

The combo of the long season, lack of a hard cap, and subsequent certainty that there will be active sellers at midseason puts the Mets in a uniquely advantageous position. They have enough of a farm system to outbid for both pitchers and lineup stretchers who shake loose. So why overpay now in a bloated market?

Yeah, I feel bad for Randle ….

This could be a chance for Randle to grow. His attitude often comes across as immature—arguing with referees instead of getting back on defense, pouting when things don’t go his way, and sulking in the locker room. For someone who sees himself as an A1 NBA player, this experience might be both challenging and humbling, but also an opportunity to reflect, adapt, and demonstrate the resilience and composure expected of a true leader whether he ends up playing in Minnesota or somewhere else.

Ant Edwards seems like an issue in Minny, even if Randle is taking the flak.

Is he really a superstar? Never been in that camp.

Totally agree. He was given the keys to kingdom over there in Minnesota well before he earned the title. I feel as if KAT took some of the blame for his deficiencies, and now its Randle. I think Minny’s FO, media, and fans will scapegoat a lot of players before they realize that his being hyped is a part of the problem as well.

Two thing we learned post trades (or were confirmed) is that yes RJ performs in statement games…and .unfortunately for Julius we might now have enough evidence to the contrary. Here’s hoping RJ takes the sensible view and sits this one out to be in top shape for 2025!

think they wanted the flexibility from randle’s $30mm player option and donte’s movable deal. sabonis locked in at $47mm a year from 26-28 doesn’t go far enough to solving their repeater tax constraints after paying $96mm in luxury taxes this year to justify dealing kat. obviously would prove untrue if they ended up giving randle a sabonis-adjacent deal but that seems unlikely to me.

This is all true, but one funny aspect of the post-trade narrative is seeing people kind of hand wave away Minnesota making an obviously bad trade by just saying “flexibility” and “the second apron” over and over.

Thing is…they are still well above the second apron. The trade on its own did nothing to address that. To be sure, they can wiggle out of it more easily without KAT’s extension on the books, but I mean, are things like letting Naz and/or Alexander-Walker walk for nothing all that appealing?

If paying the second-apron repeater was a true no go under any circumstances, I’d say their cardinal sin was paying Jaden McDaniels. It’s hard to chart their path forward, and I’m shocked they didn’t just begin a rebuild in earnest if they knew they couldn’t keep KAT.

but I mean, are things like letting Naz and/or Alexander-Walker walk for nothing all that appealing?

Appealing to me! I’d love to see Naz Reid on our team. Make it happen, Leon!

I just wonder if Randle is aware that his body language is probably costing him millions of dollars in the long run. On one hand, he isn’t going out of his way to endear himself to the Minny fanbase. OTOH, it would be in his best interests to pull his head out of his ass and play to the level that either increases his trade value or FA value with another team, or makes Minny want to retain him.

I dunno, maybe he thinks that by sulking he will grease the skids a bit for a trade to a better situation where he isn’t playing in the shadow of a beloved star, and that if it doesn’t work out, he has the opt-in as a buffer and work on some kind of plan B next year.

It will be interesting to see whether things can be straightened out for him in Minny before the playoffs. If yes, then he will have a chance to rehab his checkered playoff past without the pressure of the NY media.

“We won the trade because we’ve made KAT at the 5 work and they couldn’t.”

The result of it “not working” was a trip to the conference finals.

They went to the conference finals with KAT at the 4. He’s not as effective at the 4 to the point where you can look at Randle and think you’re getting commensurate value.

Yeah, I’m not ready to do a victory lap quite yet on us solving KAT at the 5. We’ve seen it work incredibly well in some games here, but we also saw that in Minnesota prior to the Gobert trade. Until we prove that a defense with him playing center can make a deep playoff run — really, multiple deep playoff runs, assuming the first one doesn’t end in the first title of most of our lifetimes as Knicks fans — then all we’ve done is unlocked a little more of an offensive game that was already wonderful to begin with.

We still won the trade, though.

Maybe KAT at the 5 isn’t solved, but it seems to be working here a lot better on defense here than it worked there. They did have one season the defense ranked 13th with him playing C, which is where our defense is now, but but they needed to play several offensive duds to make it work. Maybe our defense crashes when we hit a harder part of the schedule, but if we were 20th or below in defense, and usually deep into the 20s, like the TWolves often were, then we’d feel a lot different about the Towns trade regardless of his offensive performance.

The Mets are still $56M under their payroll number from last year, so they could still fill the 1B/3B hole via free agency (Bregman or Alonso) AND have money left over to bring in a couple of high leverage relief arms, AND allow some wiggle room for in-season trades for veterans. Plus they have held onto all of their prospects, and for once they have a good number of decent prospects who are in the upper minors: Acuña, Jett, Gilbert, Mauricio, Baty, Clifford, Sproat.

The combination of Uncle Steve’s money and David Stearns’ acumen is very exciting I must say.

Also, has anyone mentioned that Matt Ryan played 22 games for the TWolves?

Could he have been friends with KAT?

Is he our new Ryan Arcidiacono?

He’s supposedly going to re-sign on a 2-way.

Minny moved KAT to save money, those fans should be mad at ownership. I imagine they highly valued DDV-hes a good player on a great contract when he starts shooting better

RJ somehow has a worse WS/48 than last year, still below .100. Not that that matters but he just can’t even clear that barrier.

“I just wonder if Randle is aware that his body language is probably costing him millions of dollars in the long run“

Unfortunately—or maybe fortunately as a friend or teammate—Julius’ feelings and body language can’t be separated. The no.1 and Jalen arrives, effortlessly becomes no. 2. Traded to Minny as the no. 2 but Antman complains about the paint. Who I want as a teammate: Jalen, Julius, and in last place Antman.

They went to the conference finals with KAT at the 4. He’s not as effective at the 4 to the point where you can look at Randle and think you’re getting commensurate value.

This makes zero sense. The whole idea of getting Gobert was based on KAT at the 5 not making his team better. The “solving” was moving him to the 4, and the result was a conference finals appearance that would likely not have happened with him still at the 5. Thus far this year, KAT is presenting the same issues at the 5 as he did in Minny for 7 years. There is considerable evidence to suggest that these issues are going to be exploited in the playoffs. Unless and until we get to the conference finals (as we almost certainly would have last year with better injury luck), the default position should be that we haven’t solved anything.

And overpaying for guys like Fried or Barnes isn’t a surefire way of bridging that gap

“Overpaying” for a guy (Fried) who is 12th all time in MLB in the most important stat (win percentage > 100 decisions) who has pitched to a 3.05 ERA and a 1.164 WHIP over 880 innings is funny.

I think Antman is a clear cut #1 option given the way he’s playing this year. He’s shooting way better from outside so far. He’s not getting to the rim as often or finishing as well when he gets there due to the lack of spacing with that Gobert/Randle/McDaniels combo. That goes double with an aging Conley having a down year shooting 3s and DDV bricking. They have a good team, but it’s not constructed well for him.

Ultimately, I think they’ll figure out how to build around him or he’ll ask out, but imo he’s the “goods”.

This makes zero sense. The whole idea of getting Gobert was based on KAT at the 5 not making his team better. The “solving” was moving him to the 4, and the result was a conference finals appearance that would likely not have happened with him still at the 5. Thus far this year, KAT is presenting the same issues at the 5 as he did in Minny for 7 years. There is considerable evidence to suggest that these issues are going to be exploited in the playoffs. Unless and until we get to the conference finals, the default position should be that we haven’t solved anything

Sounds like they didn’t make it work with KAT at the 5…

If you don’t think KAT at the 5 works, then I don’t know how you can call the trade a win. KAT at the 4 had a very different effect on the offense in Minnesota than he did at the 5. If that’s your take, you need to give the trade an “incomplete” until we know it works or we see him at the 4.

If you think the trade is a win, then you must think KAT at the 5 works. If not, there’s no evidence the trade is a win.

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50 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.12.23)”

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