Knicks Morning News (2024.05.30)

“It looks like you covered a range of roughly twenty draft spots. You selected 55 players over nine years, which is an average of roughly six players per year. We have three picks in that range. Three times six players divided by 20 picks is roughly one. So if form holds true (and we use all three draft picks) we will probably get one useful player out of this draft.”

Yeah, but it seems like most years don’t have franchise changing types, at best just high-level role players.

The true difference-makers are:
2014 Jokic
2015 None
2016 Siakam, DeJounte
2017 White
2018 Brunson
2019 None
2020 Bane, maybe IQ, maybe Joe
2021 maybe Jones
2022 maybe Nembhard

So the odds of getting a plug-and-play difference-maker, let alone an all-star, if we make all 3 picks is pretty low, and this doesn’t seem like a particularly deep draft. Also seems like the best probability of getting one is to either trade up or to take 3 swings and hope for a defensive big, a backup PG-type, a shooting specialist, or a Hart-type Swiss army knife, and hope for upside.

Z-man, I don’t understand your point. You seem to be arguing with something I didn’t write. Your original post listed “NBA rotation players”, and lots of such players are “role” players. I wasn’t arguing with that. I just used your data to estimate how likely we are to get such a player. I neither said nor intended anything about a plug and play difference maker. In fact, of the four Knick picks in your list, none was plug and play. They all took time to develop.

I posted my calculation because I think people (not necessarily you) tend to have unreasonable expectations for the draft. They expect every pick to be at least useful, but the numbers show it doesn’t work that way. I think you were also thinking that.

it seems like most years don’t have franchise changing types, at best just high-level role players

If we can turn the 3 picks into 2 high-level role players, it’ll be great for our future.

Was just thinking about the Butler Sixers rumors and I kinda feel like that’s a reasonably good outcome for us. I’d obviously prefer they strike out completely but their options seem to be LeBron, Paul George, OG Anunoby, and Jimmy Butler. Butler is the only one that costs them draft capital and he also weakens a conference opponent (I imagine Riley has a move up his sleeve, but who knows how it will turn out). Butler’s also 35 years old and hasn’t played more than 65 games since he left the Bulls. The Sixers are going to be formidable regardless next year, but this is the version I think we can live with.

KFNINJ, not really trying to argue with you at all, sorry if you took it that way. If anything, I’m just trying to stimulate discussion about what Leon might do or should do with the three draft picks, given the odds and this particular draft. Two things: 1) we are more of a “win now” team than we have been in years, and 2) we actually have picks and cap options that we did not have in our last “win now” manifestation.

The questions for me are:
-Will Leon use the picks at all?
If not:
-Will he kick the can down the road and trade one or all of them for future picks?
-Will he package and currently rostered players them in a trade for a key rotation player?
if yes:
-Will he trade up to increase the odds of landing a plug-and-play rotation player to replace someone currently in the rotation?
-Will he stay put and draft players who can fill in if a multi-player trade is made?
-Should he focus on certain positions/roles? (Obviously this depends a lot on what happens with iHart).
-Of the guys who are not surely being drafted above #24, who do we hope is available, or alternatively, who is worth trading up to, say, the low teens or early 20’s for? (e.g. as good a IQ turned out, it would have been nice to have traded up for Maxey.)

Speaking of late firsts and high-level role players, would anyone be on board of a sign and trade with the Wizards for Tyus Jones? Bojan and a late first, i’d say. Tyus kept the Grizzlies on their path whenever Ja was out last couple of seasons, i think he could be a great backup PG for us. Meaning Brunson would get the rest he needs to keep performing at the high level we now expect from him. This move would also keep the 16M/18M slot we need to use in the (possible) big trade.

FWIW this is a year where rolling over one of the picks would make a lot of sense if we get a good offer. We’re unlikely to see players of Jalen Johnson or Jalen Williams’ caliber fall to us, and the upcoming apron crunches have made teams willing to pay hefty prices for late draft picks. Last year, for instance, the Nuggets gave up a top-5 protected pick in 2029 just to get the 29th and 32nd picks in the draft.

would anyone be on board of a sign and trade with the Wizards for Tyus Jones?

I think we can reasonably expect to draft and develop someone as good or better than Jones.

Didn’t know Trayce Jackson-Davis is Dale’s son. He was the penultimate pick in 2023. He averaged 11.3 points/7.6 rebounds/1.7 blocks on 69.6 percent shooting in 16 games as a starter for the Warriors. Not bad for a salary of $1,119,563. How can we get surplus value like that?

Tyus Jones seems like a pretty high bar to clear. Someone like him would be a fantastic addition.

From a rootability standpoint, it always is great to see young player development from your own draft picks. We lost 4 of those from the end of last season albeit probably only IQ and Grimes had enough exciting upside at least in a Knicks uniform. Now it’s really only Deuce, as Mitch and Jericho are what they are. For this reason alone I would love to have 2 more draft picks on the roster next year.

Add to that the sound basketball reason that our end of bench last year was a real weakness–both non productive and not trusted. The FO had little incentive to push Thibs to develop or trust the players as there is a big difference between the opportunity cost in using a draft pick vs grabbing someone from the scrapheap.

I think Tyus Jones would be a great get as a backup PG. The problem is that he probably sees himself as a starter or at least a 20+ mpg guy, not a backup to a high-minutes PG. And he is solely a PG.

I don’t think finding a player as good as Tyus Jones at #24 or later would be easy, especially in this draft. Not that Kevin O’Connor is all that, but his draft comparisons for nearly everyone in this draft are mostly unflattering.

I don’t know… the Pacers just added Nembhart and Sheppard in back-to-back drafts at 31 and 26. Neither of them are as good as Jones but giving up Bojan and a pick to pay someone $20MM to backup Brunson seems unwise.

Tyus is in the last year of his contract he would probably be a problem if he got traded to be a backup. Maybe if you could get him at the deadline and tell him he’s playing 20 minutes a night in the playoffs or something, but it’s going to be hard to convince a player and his agent to move from being a starter to a backup going into free agency.

He’s actually a UFA, DRed. We’d have to pay him starter money and convince him to be a backup, which is exactly what we didn’t want to do with Quickley.

I’m no draft expert (come back, djphan!) but I’d really be surprised if Tyler Kolek couldn’t be a cromulent backup PG next year. Add a Thibs favorite like Dennis Smith Jr for the vet minimum so we can bring him along slowly and we’d have two decent backup PGs for around $5mm.

Tyus Jones is very good. He is a low end starter level player and would be one of the best backup PGs in the league. If we could get him for Bojan and a late 1st it would be a steal. I agree that he probably doesn’t want to come off the bench especially not behind an all-nba PG.

I wonder what the market for Markelle Fultz is. He seems like the kind of guy who could blossom under Thibs.

DSJ and then drafting a PG seems like a good idea. I agree that getting a player in their prime who starts or plays heavy minutes off the bench might be difficult or a problem since they’d back up Brunson who will play a lot of minutes.

But who are the older ring chasing VET PG’s we could get. Think D Rose during the We Here season or J Kidd back in 2012. A solid vet who has a little left in the tank and wants a ring and would be cool in the back up role. CP3? He might still demand more minutes though.

But that’s what I’d be looking at. That vet PG who’s in his mid 30’s and can’t play heavy minutes but can give you a solid 15 to 20 a night and won’t make mistakes. Won’t turn the ball over. Knows how to inbounds the ball. Can hit an open 3 and run an offense.

Fultz would be okay, but I like him much more as a 10 minute guy behind McBride as the 9th man, at best, if we are healthy. I don’t know if we can afford to add a non-shooter to our main rotation. I also think he will probably get over $5 million a year and I don’t think he is worth hard capping us at the 1st apron or trading for. But on a close to minimum contract he would be great.

I think we should make all three of our picks, maybe even buy a 4th in the early 1st round. The fact that some of these picks might not develop is more reason to use them all. I think if we make 3-4 picks hopefully one or two of them can develop into rotation level players. What we need in the short term is end of bench depth that isn’t completely useless and they should provide that.

Our picks are pretty late and the draft isn’t highly regarded. I doubt anyone is lining up to give us value for our picks unless someone slips and if someone slips we should grab them.

I agree that given the circumstances, Jones is not a good fit. Better to focus on the draft or MLE for that.

If we are looking for cheap PG options I like Delon Wright, Monte Morris, Cameron Payne, Kris Dunn, Kyle Lowry, and Aaron Holiday all more than Smith Jr or Fultz.

Any of them would be good gets but none of them are more than 8th-9th men at best and all should be behind McBride in the pecking order.

The only PG type players in free agency that I would want to be major parts of our rotation are Tyus Jones or De’Anthony Melton but both probably want bigger roles and more money than we can offer.

Delon Wright might be my first choice as a cheap option. I’ve always liked his game and I think he could be had cheap and wouldn’t need tons of minutes to be happy.

Lowry at the vet minimum seems like a no brainer to me, especially given his Nova connection. He did well in the playoffs. He’s not gonna score a lot of points but we don’t really need that. We need someone who can bring the ball up the court, run an offense, inbound a ball, play passable to good defense, provide some leadership on the court when Brunson sits. Hit an open jumper. Lowry checks all those boxes. He’s old but 10 to 15 a night as Brunson’s back up he’s perfect.

Remember if Randle is back then he should be on the court when Brunson sits, so we will have that good focal point on the offense. Plus if we do end up with someone like Mikal somehow, we should be fine for offense with everyone healthy.

The big thing I saw in the playoffs was when Brunson sat we had no one who could bring the ball up the court consistently. McBride can sort of do it but not with full court defense. Hart, DDV, etc…they aren’t PG’s. We also had a lot of problems inbounding the ball in late game situations.

But who are the older ring chasing VET PG’s we could get.

That’s probably Westbrook. He did a pretty decent job as a backup PG on the vet min last year. I don’t like the fit here, though.

Lowry seems like a lock to return to Philadelphia.

Deuce is better than most/all of those guys. Hes just not a point guard. We need another person who can initiate the offense. Ideally, we need two, to allow for when Brunson isn’t playing at all.

The Giddey idea is interesting, since he has the height Deuce lacks. But Presti will want a lot, and the playoff loss showed that he has some flaws that will make him tougher to use in the playoffs.

Lowry seems like a lock to return to Philadelphia.

Why do you say that? Just curious.

I mean, he’d have the exact same role here, maybe a bit smaller. But we beat them in the playoffs and we got the Nova thing going.

Jones being a free agent means we probably can’t afford him

Take my subjective opinion for what it’s worth, but I actually think this draft is a little above average in terms of depth. It has a well-deserved reputation as a weak draft because of the top (I might take the under on 0.5 total all-NBA appearances in the whole draft), but obviously we don’t have to worry about that.

It’ll be hard getting any reputable PG to take our money in free agency unless they’re blown away, because while it is a serious need for us, it’s optimistically a 12-14 minute role at the end of the day.

With the caveat that an obvious BPA should always carry the day, I’d love to see us use our picks on a backup PG, a 3rd big, and a roll-of-the-dice wing in the 2nd round.

Kolek, Edey, and Jaylon Tyson would be my near-ideal outcome. Probably unrealistic, but there should be some reasonably compelling options.

I would pass on Jones for the above mentioned reasons. Am I the only one who still believes in Deuce? I thought he showed significant improvement and has a very team friendly contract. I would look for a taller guard with some ball handling and passing chops. Rokas maybe? I would even give Burks 2 years for $10 millions. He is a pro’s pro and wouldn’t complain about erratic minutes.

It seems like the consensus is Deuce is a very good basketball player, but that’s a different thing than being a very good point guard. It reflects very well on him that he’s carved out a clear rotation role on the merits despite being a point-guard-sized-non-point-guard, but what we really need is someone who can handle the ball most of the time when Brunson sits and I’m still not comfortable with giving Deuce that role.

Don’t know what the rules are, but I would be spending loads of resources (scouts, trainers, coaches) to assess Rokas. We’ll have infinitely more data than any draft prospect, and we need to replenish our lefties.

Why do you say that? Just curious.

He chose them to begin with, so that indicates they are his preference.

And they will be desperate to fill roster spots with vet min guys after they make their big splashes.

Seems like those two signs point to him taking the vet min there.

The thought of someone like Lowry, CP3 or Westbrook is certainly intriguing.

CP3 is non-guaranteed for $30M next year, so it obviously depends on what the Warriors do. If he’s renounced, he’d be ideal if he could agree to being in a limited backup role, but even more importantly, if he could agree to playing for Thibs. I just don’t see it happening and am guessing he stays in the WC.

Lowry makes a ton of sense, and it’s a perfect fit for him. I’d really like to see that happen. I wonder if his experience in the playoffs influenced his mindset regarding the Knicks. Again, what does he think of Thibs? I like CP3 better, but Lowry seems far more attainable, especially if we offer some real money.

Westbrook is interesting, but probably too similar to Josh Hart to make sense as a backup PG, plus he’s nuts. But we’d get all the rebounds!

It seems like the consensus is Deuce is a very good basketball player, but that’s a different thing than being a very good point guard.

This. Deuce is really the new Grimes.

It takes time to develop as a pg. I don’t see any rookie pg coming in and displacing Deuce next year. I also don’t see Deuce as a finished product at 23. Does anyone know if Rokas is even on the Knicks radar for next year?

I love me some Deuce, but am not convinced that he’s a “very good” basketball player yet. He’s got a great motor and is fearless and poised, but he’s undersized as a defender, a streaky shooter, doesn’t pass, doesn’t rebound, doesn’t get to the line, and doesn’t handle intense ball pressure well. He’s a good fit with Thibs, but he’d have to show me a lot more before I penciled him into the rotation for next year. He’s only 23 and on a great contract, so maybe he continues to improve. But for now I like him more than I trust him, and if a more trustworthy option comes along at the right price, you have to consider it.

Grimes is a much better 1 on 1 defender.

Deuce is much better on offense.

Lowry seems like a lock to return to Philadelphia…
Why do you say that?… we beat them in the playoffs and we got the Nova thing going.

He wasn’t on that Villanova team. He was, however, born and bred in Philadelphia.

That aside, and all other things equal, if a FA wanted to chase a ring and had to choose between the Sixers or the Knicks, the Sixers have a higher natural ceiling because they have a top 3 player on their team. I think that’s probably how vets would view that choice, but I could be wrong.

I think Deuce is better than streaky as a shooter. He shot over 40% (37% in playoffs) from 3 and over 50% from 2 last year. All shooters have off days but he is pretty reliable as a shooter. Plus his

As for his PG skills I think people are too down on him. Any inbound and ball pressure issues we had felt more about system than personnel and we even struggled with Brunson.

He is not a great creator of offense but very few of these cheaper players really are. But I think he has adequate enough ball skills. Plus both DDV and Hart are good ball handlers as well.

What we need is a second player who can be a primary creator on offense. It does not have to be a PG. Randle and Bridges are both good enough creators to do it for the 15 minutes a game Brunson sits, they run into trouble when it all falls on them.

Lowry would be great but I agree that he probably isn’t coming here. I think he still wants a bigger role than we can offer.

IMO we definitely need a backup PG that can run the offense and we could use a backup PF also.

We could probably get away with just a backup PG, but if Randle gets hurt we need someone that can step right in and be his backup (same thing I said last year). The trade for OG solved the backup PF situation to some degree, but given OG is also likely to miss games, we need someone else. There are downsides to playing Hart at PF when he’s more of a SG/SF. That should be the emergency case.

I don’t really care how we get what we need. It could be draft, trade a pick or both, but we need guys that can contribute now. If we have a pick leftover, we can select a more developmental type player in the draft also.

Ideally we get a mix of people that doesn’t lock OG into defending PFs. You want to put him on the opponent’s best player wherever they lineup.

We definitely need a third string PG and a third string PF. I don’t think they necessarily need to be in the rotation.

On top of that we need one more high level player to fill out our rotation. It can be pretty much any position but a larger wing would be best in my opinion. Bridges is an aim high option, Melton, Caldwell-Pope or
Dzanan Musa are more mid level options.

The 3rd stringers can be rookies or vet minimum guys since they won’t play when we are at full health. But they have to be more capable than our end of bench guys this year.

I’d love Rokas for our 3rd string PG and then a larger rookie wing like Tyler Smith, Baylor Scheierman, or Ryan Dunn as our 3rd string Forward and then DaRon Holmes II, Kel’el Ware, or Adam Bona as our 3rd string Center. Then grab vets like Justice Winslow, Stanley Johnson, and Shake Milton, or even Burks or Precious (if they take the minimum) to fill out the end of the bench.

Winslow, Johnson, and Milton are proven to be terrible. Burks is actually good and Precious is at least playable. Don’t see how they are mentioned in the same breath.

Seems like Randle has become a big talking point on ESPN

KD for Randle thing keeps popping up

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6hNANT8QLgs&pp=ygUcV2luZHkgdGhlIGtuaWNrcyBtYWtlIGEgbW92ZQ%3D%3D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxANl72U408&pp=ygUXS2V2aW4gZHVyYW50IGZvciByYW5kbGU%3D

The Randle for KD stuff is the clickiest of clickbaits. Not even worth discussing.

But I tell you what, if KD came here and won a championship, it would be the pinnacle of his career. The theoretical KD is a perfect fit. The actual KD probably is not.

Melton is too injury prone for my taste.

I don’t see how KCP leaves Denver unless they’ve got an elite wing defender hiding somewhere or they’re blowing it up. They need him on the perimeter.

Musa is an intriguing option if we want to open up the MLE and don’t think a star will become available

Not sure we want Johnson or Winslow. There’s a reason neither one saw time on an NBA court last year.

I’d like to hold onto Precious to free up a pick to use at another position or throw into a trade.

On the right contract, Precious might have some trade value.

I think Precious still has upside. He’s still pretty young. I’d like to bring him back too if we can.

Burks and Precious are better than Winslow, Johnson, or Shake. I mentioned them in the same breath because they are all players I would only want as Vet minimum type pickups.

In a perfect world none of them would see a minute of play time on the Knicks.

I think we need to build a 9-10 man rotation, then have 2-3 rookies and then the vet minimum guys like Winslow or Burks would see the floor.

I would love to get better guys in those spots, and that is totally possible but Winslow and Johnson were perfectly reasonable NBA players in 21-22 and 22-23 when they saw real time on the court. In fact the teams they were on were better when they played in both seasons.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they are better or at least comparable to 33 year old Alec Burks next year.

Burks is clearly worth more than the vet’s minimum, and 33 is not old. He is a legit NBA rotation wing who would be valuable on virtually any team in the NBA. Precious is closer to vet’s minimum but will probably get more. He’s pretty disposable, but also young and might improve with an offseason in the Knicks system.

I don’t think Burks is a rotation level player anymore. He can give some okay minutes when he is hitting his 3pt shot but he offers almost nothing else. His 2pt% is as bad as anyone getting minutes in the NBA, 36% last year and under 40% over the last 3 years.

If all he is doing is spotting up from 3 he is okay but defensively he’s lost a step, average at best at this point, and offensively you better hope he stays in his lane and only shoots spot up 3s because once he puts the ball on the floor and tries to attack the basket it is not pretty.

I actually feel Precious is more valuable and probably worth $5 million or so I just don’t think we need to pay real money to a 3rd string center, especially when we should probably just draft one.

Alec Burks was never efficient from 2. It’s not a big part of his game. But he is deadly from 3 and gets to the line where he hits 90%. He had 4 straight years of positive BPMs before this past one, where he played on the worst team in the NBA and then was both bad and injured in his 311 Knicks minutes. He sure didn’t looked washed up in the playoffs to me. I don’t expect an 8.3 BPM to be the norm next year, but he clearly is not the washed up bum you are making him out to be.

I’d be totally fine with him on a 2yr/$5M AAV kind of deal.

Burks is more than a C&S player. He can hit pull-up 3s and is one of the better foul drawers in the league.

He had 311 poor minutes on the Knicks when he had a shoulder injury but was very good for the 3.5 years before and the 121 minutes in the playoffs after.

Burks won’t be in the league much longer but if you put him in a lineup with Deuce, Hart, Randle, and Mitch next year then he should be fine.

Maybe father time drains the remnants of his athleticism but he’s miles ahead of Bojan as a defender and probably gets benched in the playoffs.

Burks as an end of bench guy, sure, whatever, but I wouldn’t want him in the actual rotation

I feel pretty confident that we’ll trade this year’s picks and maybe more for either another all-star or 1-2 high-end rotation players. And I think they want to do this while keeping our current core, maybe minus Mitch.

So they’ll try to add Towns, Butler, DeRozan, Markatin, or someone like that to the core but will settle for good rotation guys like Caruso, Sexton, or Ingram. We could see a rotation like:

Brunson, Caruso
Ingram, DDV
OG, Hart
Randle, mid-level guy
Hartenstein, vet min/draft pick

Or just make one of those moves (say Caruso or Sexton) and keep Mitch and get Batum to back up Julius.

In this scenario, we would trade at least one of our firsts (if not both) and maybe even use the other to kick the can down the road, leaving us with our 2nd rounder and maybe an additional late 1st or 2nd for our trouble.

This is not a bad place to be, and we could still end up with some duo of Scheierman, Ighodaro, Simpson, Dunn, Mogbo, and AJ Johnson for our draft haul.

The Thibs / Nova culture is still in effect. Bojan is an exception due to the Fournier issue. Not sure if guys like Batum or Ingram fit the mold. Sexton might work, but another undersized combo guard?

Any team could use a Caruso, but probably more redundant here than most places.

Imagine complaining about having Luka Doncic as a teammate…

“Imagine complaining about having Luka Doncic as a teammate…”

Brunson didn’t complain about Doncic, but he shunned similar money to leave him. Am I wrong to point out that there’s an certain irony there, considering that Brunson always says that he only cares about winning? Is it weird (i.e. dumb) to think that your chances of winning are better on a team that doesn’t have a clear-cut generational player in his young prime on it?

The T-Wolves are a low basketball IQ team. The Knicks would wreck this team.

I mean, that isn’t the complete story on Brunson as far as we know Z-Man, because all reports at the time indicate that Brunson was ready and willing to accept the 4 year 55 million contract, and that he gave the Mavs 2 chances to offer him a contract and they refused… then of course there was the New York connection, his father, Thibs, etc. It was more a case of the Mavs screwing up badly because the 55 million contract was going to be a huge steal even if Brunson never took the step he did with us.

Brunson was being very underutilized in Dallas. He’s a better player now, but not by nearly as much as the boxscore indicates. He showed what he could do running the team when Doncic was out. There were questions among fans and teams about whether he could sustain it, but not in his own mind. Sure, he would have taken the money and stayed in Dallas if they offered it. That would have been a life changing contract. But he WAY prefers being in NY running the offense and being the #1 option than playing off the ball next to Doncic. He never would have gotten the chance to show what he’s capable of playing with Doncic.

“…then of course there was the New York connection, his father, Thibs, etc. It was more a case of the Mavs screwing up badly because the 55 million contract was going to be a huge steal even if Brunson never took the step he did with us.”

All true, but it doesn’t refute the argument that his best chance to win a championship was probably to stay with Luka. He can’t have it both ways. Don’t get me wrong, I totally get his decision-making and I am thrilled that he made the decisions he did. I respect that he did not place the first priority on winning. But I don’t want to hear that he puts winning above all else. If he thinks he did that by coming to the Knicks, then he’s either being dishonest or dumb.

And I am not anywhere near a “win at all costs” fan. I would way rather root for this team than a superteam of HOF mercs like Harden and Kyrie. Brunson either did not want to be second fiddle to Doncic, or did not like that style of play, and I respect that.

“Sure, he would have taken the money and stayed in Dallas if they offered it.”

But they actually DID kinda offer it. Just not until after Brunson became a UFA. And even if they offered slightly less, if it was about the money or role rather than winning, then just admit that.

Now if he truly thinks that if the Knicks stayed healthy they’d be just as capable of winning as the Mavs, or that the Knicks have a better chance on paper than the Mavs, then that’s fair. But hard to make the argument that a team without Luka is more likely to win than a team with Luka.

Well, yeah, I agree with your premise, if you want to win a title, you’d rather stay on the team with the MVP candidate who is 25 years old. But I feel it was combination of him feeling disrespected (like I’m already giving the Mavs a discount, and they still refused to offer the contract twice), and then the Knicks emerging as a place he could be the guy.

At the end of the day to be a elite level NBA player you have to be at least a little bit of a egomaniac, and I’m sure Brunson relishes the attention he’s gotten as the guy in New York. And the ‘we’re all about winning’ thing is just standard PR stuff… I love Brunson to death, but he’s very robotic and clearly trained to say the right things every time to the media.

Mavs-Celtics final. Woof.

But they actually DID kinda offer it. Just not until after Brunson became a UFA. And even if they offered slightly less, if it was about the money or role rather than winning, then just admit that.

I was talking about the original extension offers. Had they paid him what he wanted back then, he would have stayed. Once he was an UFA and the Knicks made the offer, he was almost certainly going to take it because it was a chance to be the man instead of having a much smaller role. You can argue he’d have a better chance at a title in Dallas with Doncic, but Dallas was still considered to be missing pieces and without much flexibility back then. To go from where they were then to where they are now given that lack of flexibility has been a bit miraculous. Someone over there deserves a raise.

It’s 20:20 hindsight to think that staying with the Mavs and Doncic was the best path to winning. Of course Doncic is a great player but at the time Brunson made his decision there were no signs that Doncic was leading them to Championship contention. He (Doncic) alienated KP for example, and the Mavericks were a decent team but not a great one. Now that the Mavericks switched direction and got good interior defenders they look much better, but who knew or even predicted they would do that.

To go from where they were then to where they are now given that lack of flexibility has been a bit miraculous

Things fell correctly for them

They got Kyrie on a discount – Stars usually aren’t available for a 1st rounder and two meh players in Finney Smith and Dinwiddie.

They tanked with the Knicks pick- got Lively

They took two useful players from terrible teams – PJ and Gafford and they now look better on a team with actual talent

Ant hasn’t shot 50 % or higher in one game in this series

What exactly is the point of calling out Jalen Brunson for not being “all about winning?” He left a WC Finals team to join a 37 win Knicks side. I mean, thank god he isn’t.

If OG is all about winning he’ll leave. Hartenstein, too.

Randle never would have signed here. Donte, neither. Hart would have left as a free agent.

None of these guys are “all about winning.” Who cares?

X

But I don’t want to hear that he puts winning above all else.

Very odd take. As Bruno said, it’s pretty human to turn down the team that scorned you twice. That doesn’t mean you’re not about winning – particularly when that team hadn’t won anything yet. It isn’t contradictory to be about winning and to turn down a lower offer from a team that treated you like an afterthought.

I think players generally want to play in a place where they are comfortable with management and the coach and with teammates they like. Ideally, they are looking for a system and role where they can excel and get paid. And of course, they obviously want to be on a good team.

IMO, “all about winning” is more about working really hard in practice, putting in the time watching game film, working really hard in games consistently, being more geared towards team success than your own boxscore stats and things like that.

The Gobert trade helped Minnesota have a good season, but you have to make the finals at least when you give up that much assets.

“Once he was an UFA and the Knicks made the offer, he was almost certainly going to take it because it was a chance to be the man instead of having a much smaller role.”

If Dallas offered him the same money, it would likely be with the understanding that he would have an expanded role. Just not the man.

“Of course Doncic is a great player but at the time Brunson made his decision there were no signs that Doncic was leading them to Championship contention.”

Just being maybe the best player or two in the game at age 22 is a sign that Doncic was leading them to championship contention. He’s the closest thing to LeBron, i.e. instant contender, in the NBA today. But it’s Doncic’s team, no doubt about it. Brunson wanted more glory than being second-fiddle.

“He (Doncic) alienated KP for example”

I guess. Was Brunson pissed about that?

“Things fell correctly for them”

Not really. They still traded assets for Kyrie, which they wouldn’t have had to do if they kept Brunson. They could have used those assets to land a Lively-level player. Everything else they did they could have done at least as much with Brunson instead of Kyrie. Unless you think Kyrie is better than Brunson?

“What exactly is the point of calling out Jalen Brunson for not being “all about winning?” He left a WC Finals team to join a 37 win Knicks side. I mean, thank god he isn’t.”

So the guy who passionately defends an irreverent anti-semites and thinks it would swell to buy low on the most violent domestic abuser in the NBA is questioning the point of a particular conversation?

“I think players generally want to play in a place where they are comfortable with management and the coach and with teammates they like. Ideally, they are looking for a system and role where they can excel and get paid. And of course, they obviously want to be on a good team.

IMO, “all about winning” is more about working really hard in practice, putting in the time watching game film, working really hard in games consistently, being more geared towards team success than your own boxscore stats and things like that.”

I agree with this. And I’m thrilled that Brunson feels that way. But there’s no doubt that he left a much better chance for a title than he would have here, and not for the money. It’s actually not all that different from what Durant did when he left the Dubs, or what Kyrie did when he shunned LeBron. The main differences are: a) those guys are weirdos and b) they had already won.

If Dallas offered him the same money, it would likely be with the understanding that he would have an expanded role. Just not the man.

He was already starting for them at the end. His role was limited because he’s better with the ball in his hands and that wasn’t going to happen next to Doncic. That’s what caused some of the friction with KP too. Doncic was so ball dominate, those guys felt they were under utilized. Irving feels comfortable in his role. Maybe that’s because he played with James. Doncic also seems to like and respect Irving enough to let him take over at times.

Yeah. Why should anyone care that Jalen Brunson isn’t all about winning?

“Yes. Why should anyone care that Jalen Brunson isn’t all about winning?”

Why should anyone care about what an ardent defender of a holocaust denier thinks about what anyone should or shouldn’t care about?

It’s a strange conceit to suggest Brunson isn’t all about winning… he likely isn’t but it’s pretty close to his list of top priorities. His media training is elite as Bruno said, so it’s hard to parse his personality. Who’s to say Dallas doesn’t use him to find the player they would’ve rather offered Brunson’s contract to, like Kyrie? It was clear Dallas didn’t think he was a perfect fit. He likely wasn’t. Being able to embed in a winning culture is one way to do it and show it. This Dallas team is a nightmare to figure out, I think Brunson believes the Knicks are a nightmare to figure out when they get healthy.

I can’t get 2-pac out of my head the past two days.

Hubert IVsays:
May 30, 2024 at 23:13
Yeah. Why should anyone care that Jalen Brunson isn’t all about winning?
Z-mansays:
May 30, 2024 at 23:16
“Yes. Why should anyone care that Jalen Brunson isn’t all about winning?”

Why should anyone care about what an ardent defender of a holocaust denier thinks about what anyone should or shouldn’t care about?

Did ya’ll see Corsage with Vicky Krieps? It was fucking fabulous. She’s so sick.

Minnesota gotta fix something.

Minnesota gotta fix something.

Ant will get better, but that team has some basketball IQ problems. I’m not sure how to fix that.

“He was already starting for them at the end. His role was limited because he’s better with the ball in his hands and that wasn’t going to happen next to Doncic.”

Is this a fact, or is there a chance that Jason Kidd would have balanced things out after Brunson’s breakout in the playoffs? Doesn’t sound like there was even a conversation about it.

“That’s what caused some of the friction with KP too.”

Well that’s interesting because KP’s usage is lower in Boston than it was in Dallas. In fact, his offensive role is reduced…mostly just hang out and take threes!

“Irving feels comfortable in his role. Maybe that’s because he played with James. Doncic also seems to like and respect Irving enough to let him take over at times.”

Kyrie was in a perfect role with LeBron and they won a championship and lost in the finals. Then he left LeBron in a huff, and never returned to the finals until he teamed up with Doncic and took on the same role he had with LeBron.

Brunson was paired with a 23yo LeBron clone and left him mainly because he didn’t want to be a second fiddle. That LeBron clone is just going to get better and better with age and experience, with or without Brunson. He is likely to win multiple championships. That shouldn’t be a surprise. Some here feel that Brunson is much better than Kyrie and can be the best player on a championship team. I think Brunson is better suited to being a second fiddle, and can only be the best player on a championship team if a) it’s a very special mix like the Billups Pistons or b) it’s one of those lucky years where injuries and matchups smile on us. But my guess is that if we eventually win a chip, Brunson will be the second best player on that team.

And to be clear, it’s not a character flaw to do what Brunson did. It’s a risk-reward thing. One thing is clear, a championship as the leader of the Knicks would mean WAAAAY more than a championship as a second fiddle in Dallas. That’s a noble way to feel! And all of us here at KB are beneficiaries of that conscious risk-reward decision.

And I doubt that Brunson will second-guess himself even if Dallas wins five titles and the Knicks win zero. He doesn’t seem wired that way. Again, kudos to him!

A great topic in here for Sports talk shows tommorow

“Did Brunson make a mistake leaving Luka”

You will also see this all over social media in the coming days. A week until the finals, they need something to kill time.

Bummer. At the start of the post-season I picked Boston to beat Minny in the finals. Don’t think Dallas has a chance… Minny matched up better, I think.

Brunson was paired with a 23yo LeBron clone and left him mainly because he didn’t want to be a second fiddle.

For a guy who writes long pieces about how other posters are just making stuff up that players think, this is a pretty impressive leap. No evidence to support it, some evidence to argue against it, but just say it loud enough and maybe people will believe it….

Well that’s interesting because KP’s usage is lower in Boston than it was in Dallas. In fact, his offensive role is reduced…mostly just hang out and take threes!

1. You had to watch a lot of Dallas games at the time to see the dynamic between Doncic and KP. No matter what they say publicly, they did not like each other. On one level it was immaturity and competitiveness from two young guys, but on another level Doncic had the ball and would often look KP off when he was open or throw up a real trash shot instead of passing to him. On occasion KP used to shake his head and throw up his arms in frustration. There were even times Doncic hit a super tough game winner while KP was open and KP was the only player not celebrating. They did not like each other. Don’t believe anything else you read.

2. I think KP has since matured a bit and realizes his place, but he also has teammates in Boston that like and respect him and pass him the ball when he’s open. They celebrate each other’s success instead of there being an underlying competitiveness. There are also more good scoring options. So they are all sacrificing a little.

3. I think Doncic has improved his shot selection this year and obviously likes Kyrie a lot more than KP.

Brunson was paired with a 23yo LeBron clone and left him mainly because he didn’t want to be a second fiddle.

Red sauce or white sauce?

Don’t think Dallas has a chance… Minny matched up better, I think.

I thought the same thing before the Conference finals started, but both these teams have a defensive rating of 112 in these playoffs and Luka/Kyrie is a better duo than Edwards /Towns

Rama, that’s just a guess, I thought I made that clear. so where do you believe “best chance to win a championship’” falls in Brunson’s leaving for virtually equal, if not less, money? If it was not #1, what was? We are only speculating, but there happen to be some constraints:
-it wasn’t money
-it wasn’t to play for a better team
-it wasn’t to be the second best player

So what else is there? His dad? Thibs? Leon? New York?

All good reasons for sure. But when it comes to winning, none are even close to comparing with being paired with a truly generational player as a Robin to his Batman. There is ample evidence of that. If he thinks otherwise, he is as delusional as Kyrie and KD were.

If you’re going to speculate, I didn’t know why you wouldn’t start with what Bruno said: they wouldn’t make him the low offer he hoped for, and when he had the chance to stick it in their faces he did. Pretty basic. On top of that, it seems more reasonable to think that Thibs and his father had more to do with the decision than being first banana. He’s talked about wanting to play for Thibs – that isn’t speculation.

He’s never said a word about needing to be “the man.” Which isn’t proof he doesn’t feel that way, but there are a lot of obvious reasons to ditch Dallas that make that kind of speculation a reach.

I hate all this “everybody should want to play with Luka if they want to win”. It was the same garbage about LeBron. People can have incredible competitive drive and desperately want to win every game and it doesn’t mean they want to play with one particular person regardless of his personality. And Dallas isn’t winning just because Luka is dragging them into the finals. They are playing as a team with great team defense. That enables their stars scoring to carry the day. You need a team that fits together to win. That’s more important than any one player.

Am I wrong to point out that there’s an certain irony there, considering that Brunson always says that he only cares about winning?

I find this whole thread weird , so I am going back to the original Z-man quote. The context of Brunson’s caring about winning was always in the team v my performance in games, or once the post season started, plays-off series. I don’t remember any talk from him or beat writers stating that he signed for the Knicks because he cared about winning.

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