[ESPN] – Sat, 30 Dec 2023 17:25:00 GMT
- Knicks acquire Raptors’ OG Anunoby, deal RJ Barrett
- OG Anunoby trade: Cross another name off Detroit Pistons’ NBA free agency 2024 wish list
- Raptors trade OG Anunoby to Knicks for package that includes RJ Barrett, Immanuel Quickley
- Immanuel Quickley shares stunned reaction to being traded by Knicks: ‘Oh my goodness’
- Grading the Knicks’ trade for OG Anunoby with the Raptors
[ESPN] – Sun, 31 Dec 2023 03:13:00 GMT
- Miles McBride agrees to 3-year, $13M extension with Knicks
- New York Knicks Reportedly Release 5-Year NBA Player
- Miles McBride, Knicks Agree to 3-Year, $13M Contract After Anunoby Trade
- Miles McBride Signs Three-Year, $13MM Extension
- Knicks’ Miles McBride agrees to three-year, $13M extension
[New York Post] – Sun, 31 Dec 2023 02:50:00 GMT
- Depleted Knicks ripped by Pacers after making blockbuster trade
- Tyrese Haliburton joins Magic Johnson, John Stockton with consecutive 20-20 games
- Pacers 140-126 Knicks (Dec 30, 2023) Game Recap
- Scenes from all scoring and no stopping in a wasted DiVincenzo career game
- New York Knicks vs. Indiana Pacers Live Score and Stats – December 30, 2023 Gametracker
[King James Gospel] – Sat, 30 Dec 2023 22:00:00 GMT
Knicks blockbuster trade signals to Cavaliers they are coming for Mitchell
[Hoops Hype] – Sun, 31 Dec 2023 04:38:17 GMT
- Knicks remain interested in Dejounte Murray after OG Anunoby trade
- Los Angeles Lakers are favorites to land $114 million Atlanta Hawks star, per reports
- Lakers Should Seek Trade for Hawks’ Dejounte Murray amid Latest NBA Trade Rumors
- Why Knicks Should Get Over Murray Trade Hang-Up
- The Knicks see Dejounte Murray as an ideal trade target, but there’s a catch with Rich Paul
184 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.12.31)”
Looking at the Deuce extension… we probably should have paid him more… we need matching salaries.
Resigning iHart is critical now for the same reason.
And we probably have to pick up Evan’s option just to retain his salary if we can’t trade him this year.
It’s getting harder and harder to make moves. We’re not rimrocked yet, but we’re getting close.
I get the matching salaries argument but isn’t it always better to pay a player less?
I don’t think the Deuce extension is for a trade (at least this season). If I recall correctly, you can only trade someone on a veteran extension (which is what Deuce qualifies for as a second rounder ineligible for the rookie scale) if their extension is three years and, at max, 105% of their current salary. His current salary is 1.8m, so the extension AAV exceeds the 105% threshold. So he won’t be tradeable for the next six months. It seems to me the extension was done for one of three reasons: that we intend to audition him for the backup PG role and want to lock him in in case he shows out; or that we intend to include him in a trade over the summer; or the Leon Rose Special, where this is just a solid done for him and his agent in appreciation of his good service as an end of bench guy.
I woke up in the middle of the night and had trouble falling back to sleep because I kept thinking about IQ. Very tough to lose such an excellent and highly rootable player.
Thibs just can’t abide the joy and fun people like Obi and IQ brought to the proceedings. Far too cool.
He’s the cod liver oil of coaches.
Will be fascinating to see what happens when after insisting on Josh Hart and Quentin Grimes to help fix the defense, this doesn’t fix the defense either.
I know Z-man, I know.
It stings to lose a homegrown player who we developed into such a good player.
But maybe McBride has been doing well behind the scenes and there just wasn’t room for him in the rotation and now there is. It does seem like since the spring or so when McBride has played he’s done well in limited minutes. We know he brings it defensively all the time. I’ve long felt like it was a mistake to take him out of the rotation once we got hart. Like we went down to a. 9 man last year when we were struggling but McBride was part of that 9 man that helped turn it around. But instead of expanding back to 10 when hart got here, hart just replace McBride.
I’m hoping McBride can step up. For him and grimes this is their moment to prove they belong. There’s more usage to go around now that the brick machine is gone.
Well we know for certain that RJ wasn’t fixing the defense…or the offense.
https://nypost.com/2023/12/30/sports/ten-pressing-questions-about-the-knicks-after-og-anunoby-trade
Bondy: Q: Does this mean the Knicks are now contenders?
A: No. In terms of sheer basketball talent, the Knicks didn’t get better.
Anunoby is not close to an All-Star; he just theoretically fits better next to Julius Randle and Jalen Brunson.
Return to sender.
I didn’t realize thibs is the GM.
No, not this season. But in all likelihood the player we want isn’t going to be available in the next two months.
Marvel is introducing a new supervillain today
“E – Destroyer of Threads”
This makes the team better by positioning it better for what will likely be the last major move. The last position that needs an upgrade is SG. Before this, there were other, but more complex paths to putting together a team that was balanced in terms of offense, defense, spacing, size and perimeter and interior defense. Now we have balance and know what we need.
Not if you need salary to make a trade.
I agree that there is an opportunity for Deuce to establish himself in the rotation. Unlike IQ, he’s well-suited to be a 10-15min backup and will likely be thrilled with an opportunity to fill that role. Yet also unlike IQ, he is not suited at all to be an effective starter if Brunson goes down for any significant time. Maybe I’m underestimating him, but in his case, I think you’re getting what you are paying for.
New way to think of this…
The final version of this team pairs Brunson, OG , and Mitch/iHart, with a max player, and Randle is the matching salary we send out in the trade.
We’ll probably pick up Evan’s option if we can’t trade him for someone like Bojan. That means next year we have ~$50mm in expiring salary between Randle and Evan. That’s how you build out the trade.
Mitch, Randle, OG, Grimes and Brunson will not be an elite defense, but it will be a good enough defense assuming he decides to go back to Grimes now (who should get a little more usage and better spacing with RJ gone). The defense lost something with Mitch out, but we already knew that.
If we do that to him we should probably also pay for his anger management therapy.
So barring any further trades, what will the rotation look like? Here’s my guess:
Starters: iHart, Randle, OG, DDV, Brunson
Bench: JHart, Grimes, Deuce, Precious/Sims (TBD)
Situational: Fournier, Flynn, Taj (probably one of Sims or Precious)
Minutes allocations:
Totals:
Randle: 36
Brunson: 36
OG: 32
iHart: 32
JHart: 28
DDV: 24
Grimes: 20
Precious/Sims: 20
Deuce: 12
C: iHart 32, Precious/Sims 16
PF: Randle 36, OG 8, Precious 4
SF: OG 24, Hart 24
SG: DDV 24, Grimes 20, Hart 4
PG: Brunson 36, Deuce 12
When the news broke yesterday, it was so close to what I had been hoping for for two years that I couldn’t engage with it at all until the evening. It was like being in a dream – RJ gone, OG in. Such an enormous improvement, and so perfect for this roster.
But yeah, the IQ part of it sucks. It makes sense as Brunson would always limit his opportunity here, but he may be a better two-way player than Brunson already. Obviously he’s not his match on offense, but he’s far, far superior on defense. If we had more of a playmaking 3, I’d almost say IQ was the better player for that lineup. But we don’t, and given the range of possibilities, I think this was as good as we could hope for. Brunson is the clear leader of the team, proven in the playoffs, and OG fits perfectly.
I do agree another trade seems likely. We have a lot of ammo still. I’m not sure it’ll happen during the season, but clearly the idea is to construct a contender with the current key pieces in Randle and Brunson. It’s not impossible, but this next move is the key move, as it will be our last one.
I think Deuce’s extension is ok money, seems like you guys worry a lot about Dolan’s money! 😀 He’s going to be the backup, he has played 100 mins this season, dished 9 assists and has exactly ZERO turnovers. We can trust him with the backup PG role without having to think of minutes to give him like we needed to do with Quick.
Meanwhile, don’t know if people noticed but…
I think Grimes should start again and DDV should go back to the bench. Without Quickley in the 2nd unit we need more scoring in that unit. DDV is the better scorer than Grimes. Grimes may struggle with the starters again, but I think it will easier for him with OG than RJ.
And how about DDV yesterday?
Our record (17-15) is not what we expected, but what if i told you that from those 32 games we played 20 away games?
I don’t think Thibs will flip DDV and Grimes but there is at least some logic to it. Seems like the second unit will definitely need some shot creation. One possibility is to stagger Brunson and Randle so that one of them is always on the floor. Another would be, god forbid, to mix in Fournier.
It’s better than I expected.
“Our record (17-15) is not what we expected, but what if i told you that from those 32 games we played 20 away games?”
It would have been nice to win one of these last 3 games…but as I said yesterday, the season really starts today. The trade is a pretty dramatic change. Now, between Mitch, RJ, and IQ, we are replacing a third of the minutes allocation we went into the season with. It will be interesting to see how things play out, especially in games like the rematches with OKC, ORL and IND.
He didn’t look bad yesterday, the problem is we don’t have minutes to give him, because i think he can still play. When i was advocating to taking him out, was because he was a starter, i think he’s a good player for a backup role. Maybe play him in January to try to trade him?
For the record, I don’t think we raised our ceiling for this year…still would guess something in the mid-high 40’s, a 6th seed, and either a first round or second round exit. I don’t think the play-in is out of the question.
However, I think our long-term ceiling is raised. OG is a very significant upgrade over RJ as a complementary piece, and now the acquisition of a stud SG and perhaps a more stretchy 5 can make a huge impact, certainly more than what was possible with RJ still here on his contract.
Donte really scored 38 points last night. The Pacers defense is crazy.
The question for me now, is- if the next move isn’t for a star level player, what do we do? We obviously need scoring punch on the 2nd unit. So do we switch Grimes and DDV again? Or do we use Grimes in a trade to get a more offensive minded player to run with Hart on that 2nd unit or upgrade the starting SG spot?
It’s hard to know what OG’s impact will be especially since we won’t get to see him in the starting line up with Mitch.
I’m glad we got precious thrown in. I think low key that’s gonna be a good move for us with our lack of bigs right now.
I go back and forth about Dejonte vs. Mitchell. I see the benefits of both but no denying the potential for a chip is higher I think if we grab Donovan.
“Or do we use Grimes in a trade to get a more offensive minded player to run with Hart on that 2nd unit or upgrade the starting SG spot?”
It’s a great question. Whatever one thinks of RJ and IQ, they were two of our four rotational shot-creators, and both were in that role with the bench mob.
The currently most intriguing answers are Mitchell, LaVine, and Murray.
An outside-the-box solution would be to overpay for Mikal and play him as a big SG. Imagine a starting 5 of Mitch, Julius, OG, Mikal and Brunson? Along those lines, depending on what happens with the Clippers, maybe Kawhi becomes available at the right price?
The difference is that to get Mitchell we’ll have to give up all our picks and probably 2 rotation players. Don’t think the Hawks can ask for nearly that much for Murray
But yes, our ceiling would be higher with Mitchell for sure
I’m still uneasy on the trade this morning. Personally wouldn’t have traded IQ without giving him an expanded role first.
What if I told you the last two seasons we’ve had a better record on the road than at home?
I don’t feel good about this trade. I really don’t like giving up IQ.
Donte has been shooting insanely well as a starter. It’s flat out ridiculous at this point, last night only emphasized it.
The team thought IQ wouldn’t work as a pairing with Brunson doesn’t make an enormous amount of sense as a justification for moving IQ because I think they did work when they played together.
I don’t know, I like OG and I don’t really like RJ as a player or a contract, and you do have to give something to get something. but we definitely shipped out the guy with the highest reasonable upside.
At least we have some new shit to talk about
Ending the year on a 3 game losing streak but never felt better about the future because I absolutely love the trade. We gave up a lot in IQ but did capitalise on two things: RJ is more value to Toronto than elsewhere and Leon’s son as agent reducing the rental risk. It also absolves Leon for his boring summer and makes the Obi to DDV switch more cogent. And what I certainly won’t do is check the Toronto box score each night to see how IQ and RJ are doing. I would like both to succeed and the trade only backfires from that standpoint if Toronto manages to finish higher than us (or God forbid knock us out of the playoffs).
It’s after 4pm over here, getting ready to celebrate with a few close friends…so Happy New Year fellow posters. 2023 was a great year for the team, 2024 looks potentially even brighter!
$10 says we’ll still have fights about RJ.
I feel like Leon made the consensus move Knickerblogger has been requesting. Very curious to see if OG improves us but sad we have to wait to see him play with Mitch.
Losing IQ is painful, but I don’t think he’s gone bc they think he can’t play with Brunson. Rather I wonder if Grimes could/would have been sent instead, if only he had played any games this season better than my fifteen year old cousin, who is also Canadian btw 😉
If I’m mistaken we have two TPE’s (this one and Obi) plus the Mitch exception.
Might be smart to trade firsts for guys in the second or third years of their rookie deals.
they almost definitely will need to opt in to Fournier’s deal…. any deal for any significant salary won’t work without it… it’ll also probably include Hart since he’s the next biggest salary chunk left but might be unclear if cleveland or another team would want to take him back with 4 years left on his deal… if it’s not Hart you need to play tetris with the remaining contracts and roster room… but almost certainly includes Donte and Grimes….
McBride’s deal helps on matching salaries… but only marginally so…. it just gives more options… hopefully there’s yearly team options on that or i dunno if any team would want to take that on for a guy who won’t be in their rotation….
and what if i told you we only beat 5 teams over .500?
but the games that KB actually counted… we were undefeated…. so there’s that….
I thought about Hart but his contract is onerous. Any deal you put him in is going to increase the pick output.
Hartenstein will be useful on his next contract, though. Presumably it will be around $14mm AAV.
Him plus Fournier plus Grimes plus Deuce only gets you to around $40mm, though. I suppose you can throw DDV in to get you to max money but then we’re pretty much gutted.
Thought I would wake up missing Quickley but woke up missing Mitch. Still our best draft pick of this century, change my mind…
well if you’re cleveland… why would you want take on 5 years of Hart and 2-4 years of iHart when you would be trying to rebuild with Mobley.. Allen and Garland? even if they’re trying to be good… why would they want Deuce? and if they’re trying to be good why would they want picks instead of all that? they might as well try and play hardball and risk losing him for nothing in an offseason where there probably won’t be many with actual cap room…
those answers are unclear at best right now…
Yeah, sad to see Quickley go, but you’ve got to give some to get some, and I really really like OG, so thumbs up on the trade.
I don’t really care if, perhaps, RJ takes a step forward with Toronto. It wasn’t happening here.
Idk, maybe they will try to roll with these starters for the foreseeable future and just get a replacement 6th man like Brogdon at the deadline?
I’m not sure if Deuce can be moved by then, but Deuce, Fournier, and the Bucks 1st should get it done.
also here’s a lil tidbit about CAA and ESPN…. which i had a conversation about with someone yesterday….
https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/celtics/espns-weird-coverage-of-the-ime-udoka-story
seems like CAA also represents a lot of folks at ESPN…. which includes guys like Stephen A.. Andrews and … Woj… what prompted this was the odd wording of the OG trade release .. which isn’t so odd for Woj…. but was basically a mouthpiece for the Knicks… completely leaves out the Raptors side of things. but also makes a lot of sense since he basically mouthpieces for CAA… Shams for Klutch…
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39209777/knicks-acquiring-raptors-og-anunoby-trade-sources-say
if anyone has a subtack to Ethan Strauss he goes into it a bit more.. but makes the whole Dolan and CAA connections make a lot more sense…. he doesn’t really care about the oncourt product… he just wants favorable coverage… and makes a lot of the ESPN grades of these deals make a lot more sense…
DiVo has been playing his ass off as the starting SG. Maybe they should take a look at the team as is for a month or so before making any additional moves.
Divo is currently sitting at a 64 ts%
That backcourt could work if mitch was available and with OG
What if i told you that this season we’re .666 at home and .450 away? 😉
Hey, we’re in the same timezone… are you in Portugal? 😉
Happy New Year, y’all! 🥂 Even the pessimists that can’t see a glimpse of hope whatsoever! 😀
Sorry guys, I’m still in mourning. Seems IQ may have been my favorite professional athlete in some time. You don’t know what you got till it’s gone…
That Ogugua fellow is going to have to do a hell of a job of consoling…
Defensively I think it makes sense to split Grimes and OG up. You want one of them defending the PoA at all times and that’s easier if you bring Grimes off the bench.
Plus, Donte does more damage defending off ball by jumping passing lanes.
If the Suns fall apart, which seems very possible, maybe Booker would be in play. As a CAA client, seems like something that could happen eventually. And the SG slot is right there for him.
Happy and Healthy New Year to everybody!
Booker would be the perfect star for us to get.
It’s never just about basketball here, and this trade wasn’t just about basketball.
I don’t know why we’re even talking about Cleveland. This idea that OG is so good he can single handedly overcome the defensive liabilities of a Brunson Mitchell backcourt is preposterous.
Well, the Cavs manage to survive with a Garland/Spida backcourt by surrounding them with some competent defenders. I think it’d be worth the tradeoff on defense to be able to run a Brunson/Mitchell/OG/Randle/Mitch lineup out there on offense. That would be quite a good offense and maybe you could get by with a defense that’s something like league average and make a run. (shrug emoticon)
I think you’re all looking at this wrong. We should not be in the market for combo guards. The whole reason we made this trade is because Thibs thinks the idea of Brunson and a combo guard is unplayable in crunchtime/the playoffs, and I happen to think he’s probably right.
OG has been playing the small wing position for his whole career. That’s what he should be: the guard who plays between Brunson and a bigger wing. He’s not some superman who can cover for three terrible perimeter defenders.
Who won’t do that right away bc our roster is flawed. But when we go all in, that’s got to be his position.
Booker, Mitchell, Murray…. If those are the final moves god help us.
Think 6’8” and higher. That’s the droid we’re looking for.
Those droids don’t grow on trees.
I think the IQ situation was pretty simple, when the Knicks couldn’t get him to agree to a contract extension he was gonna get traded rather than let him walk as a FA.
Knicks were not willing to pay him 25-30m per season so they were willing to include him in the OG trade instead of 1st rd picks which they still have their full allotment of for their next trade.
Not saying its the right move but unlike with past front offices you can at least see and understand the logic of the moves the current front office makes. You can also tell they have an understanding of the salary cap and the luxury tax implications.
Also DDV is a pretty good basketball player and easily worth his contract.
Another guy that could be available is Lauri Markkanen, but then we’re committing to playing a jumbo lineup with OG at the 2, Markkanen at the 3 and Randle at the 4. It could work, maybe, and while it massively improves our shooting it doesn’t have the Mitchell upside of adding another ball handler to the mix.
With OG re-signing next season I’m much more I’m favor of trading for Mitchell than I ever was, because now we can hide his relative defensive issues with OG and good paint protection once Mitch is back next season, and he can add a whole other dimension to the scoring part. The hard part is finding an offer that Cleveland likes, or seeing if Mitchell tries to force his way to the Knicks, but even that is not a guarantee.
Interesting that the CCA connection is coming up again because when OG switched agents and some of us brought up the possibility of it being a precursor to a move to NY some people shot it down. But even if it wasn’t the sole reason for the change, it gave us an inside track.
Hubie, Mikal is 6’6″. Too short?
Brunson, Mikal, OG, Randle, Mitch. 7’2″ and 7’1″ wingspan on the wing.
With IQ gone, where does the scoring come from off the bench?
We are going from IQ to Deuce. That’s a big drop off.
The bench scoring already took a hit when we swapped DDV and Grimes. IMO we will need a better scorer with the bench unit to go with Hart, Deuce, Sims (or whoever plays backup C). I don’t think Grimes is the guy.
I’m not sure who from the starting lineup they will play with those guys, but it might have to be Randle or maybe they’ll give some minutes to OG with the bench unit and tell him this is his opportunity to up his usage the way he wants.
If you don’t go for Mitchell or Booker, then Mikal is the next guy you look at. This team would be ferocious defensively and quite good offensively (if Brunson’s scoring keeps up). It’s possible he could be available if BK keeps treading water and Simmons doesn’t look healthy.
So let me get this straight…
-We give up the best player in the trade by consensus… IQ is better than OG now and young enough to still improve significantly
-In fact, IQ represented the lion’s share of our internal development upside
-In return we get a taller Josh Hart type, a role player paid similarly to our underpaid stars, thereby offsetting the advantage of JB and JR having signed below market
-We had about a 47 win ceiling before the trade. After the trade, we have… about a 47 win ceiling.
-This lateral move significantly dilutes our already modest asset base by giving up our best young player and one of our better excess picks. It’s now even less plausible that we’ll be competitive in the next disgruntled superstar sweepstakes. We’ll pretty much need them to force their way here (just like Lillard did to Miami!) or for CAA politics to carry the day.
-The consensus based on all of the above seems to be that we’re… happy about this trade??? What?
All we’ve done here is change the ceiling of the mezzanine from glass to concrete, cementing that the objective of the “hybrid” strategy was nothing more than a perennial 6th seed that keeps us “relevant” and nets Dolan 3-5 playoff gate revenues per year. We traded our only hint of chrome & leather ingredients for another nut and another bolt.
But yeah, at least we got rid of the contract we never should have given to the guy we blew the most important draft pick in our last 20 years on…
We’ll see what IQ does in an expanded role playing more minutes with starters, but he could wind up being as good or better than OG. That means we have up RJ + a very good 2nd round pick for nothing. In fact, depending on how you value Quickley and RJ, some people might think the pick was the cost of moving RJ. 😉
Either way, if you at least think this was a reasonably fair deal in terms of player value, I have to agree with the consensus that OG is a huge upgrade from RJ in the starting lineup. So if Thibs and management were totally unwilling to start Quickley next to Brunson despite the favorable data, then making this move makes sense just for the fact that the pieces fit together better now.
It’s not just a Brunson/Spida backcourt, though. It’s Julius Randle, too. They had Evan Mobley in that position.
We more or less agree on Quickley “potentially” being the best player in the deal, but that’s far from certain yet.
I can’t agree with calling OG another Hart. OG is better on both sides and a much better fit at SF.
You are pointing out the negative side of everything about this deal when there are huge current and team building upsides. When there are pluses and minuses that usually means the deal was close to fair.
No they don’t but they’re out there and I’d rather be patient than go all in on a team with clearly fatal flaws.
I think you need to keep 2 of OG, Brunson, and Randle on the floor.
Donte has been sporting an 18% usage too, which isn’t half bad.
iHart could be used to run an offense if Thibs decides to bring him off the bench again.
Achiuwa has a 21% usage, which you don’t want, but maybe you can coax something out of him. He’s averaging over 3ast per 36 this season. It’d be nice if he found his shot again.
Hart tallied a higher usage at one stop.
Thibs may need to move away from his static iso offense more than he’s comfortable with. To his credit, I don’t think we’ve been quite so iso heavy this year. You see wrinkles incorporating more modern handoff-centric offense and running Donte off screens.
Also keep in mind the measures Cleveland had to go to cover up their backcourt size is exactly what made their offense so easy to dominate in the playoffs.
Brunson & Mitchell is a bad idea.
you’re going to have to be happy with it… i’m not buying it either but mitchell isn’t bad… and the clock is ticking… you wait around for perfect you will get far far less than mitchell…. and it’s not like we won’t have competition for him either so it’s not some slam dunk that we just get any star that comes on the market….
meanwhile.. this team as constructed is in trouble…. so it remains to be seen whether mitchell or anyone would want to come to another team scratching their way to a play-in…. which oh btw… we’re currently the 8th seed…. which probably has nothing to do with why this trade was made right now…. (narrator: it did)….
I’m not sure where you came up with this “small wing” position – do you mean he’s the SF or the traditional 3? Or do you mean he’s mostly a 2 and so you need another jumbo wing to play next to him? If the latter – B-R pretty clearly shows that OG has not been playing “shooting guard” and instead really IS the droid you’re looking for – he’s spent 60% of his career minutes at the 3 and 23% at the 4.
For the time being – meaning before the next move – I think it’s likely that Thibs changes his rotation slightly such that one of Randle or Brunson is always on the floor. So perhaps Brunson comes out at the 6-8 minute mark, Randle plays the whole 1st quarter, and then Brunson plays without Randle with the 2nd unit for the first half of the 2nd quarter.
In terms of losing Quickley – I love IQ and think he’s great, but ultimately I think it’s a lot easier to find a player of Quickley’s archetype than it is to find one of OG’s – truly elite on- and off-ball defender who is big enough to guard the Durants and Tatums and Lukas of the world yet quick enough to be tasked to Halliburton and other primary ball handlers – and yet is a very good (not great) relatively high-volume 3 point shooter that has a little bit of creation juice (not a Reggie Bullock who should never be allowed to dribble).
I’m ambivalent on the Donovan Mitchell thing… I think the offense would be near unstoppable with him (can you imagine a Mitchell + QG + Hart + OG + center going against opposing 2nd units?!) but it feels a little unnecessary to be honest – when it comes to crunch time, if Brunson is not the one with the ball then it’s generally suboptimal for him to be out there given defensive shortcomings.
I agree with Hubie on DMitch. The problem against OKC wasn’t a lack of a #1 defender, it was a lack of a #2 wing defender (or Thibs stubbornly playing RJ over Grimes who can handle 1-on-1s better).
Maybe you can get away with it because Spida is that good on offense, but you run into the same problem.
If you go for Spida, then I think you need to move Randle. Maybe Cleveland would be interested in him if the Mobley/Allen frontcourt struggles in the playoffs again. And I’d still prefer a bigger wing. Doesn’t necessarily need to be bigger than OG though. Donte may honestly be fine based on how good he’s been on offense.
That’s because all of the “positives” center around this move addressing our own self-inflicted limitations. We had to move our best young player because our coach buries him and refuses to consistently put our best talent on the floor. We had to expend our best asset to salary dump RJ because we gave him a contract no other team would pay for a net negative player with a development curve flatter than Kyrie Irving thinks the Earth is.
We have “pluses and minuses.” Where is the minus for the Raptors? They gain only upside by picking up an ideal running mate for their up & coming superstar, and they get the best 2RP on top. Nobody believed Masai’s bullshit about OG being worth three 1RP worth of value but us — in putting that out there, he probably knew that he only needed one sucker and we’d be it.
If this deal has so much current upside, why hasn’t anyone here made a convincing case that this roster projects to more than the 45-48 win range we were already in? Do you believe we’re a 50+ win team now?
Knicks are 2.5 games out of the 4th seed and have played the most road games while playing the fewest home games in the NBA.
I’m considered an optimist cause I think the Knicks will win in the high 40’s and finish in the 4th/5th seed just like last year but before the season started I said the Knicks will probably barely be above .500 going into January because of their schedule and that’s exactly where they are.
The upside is that our defense has been terrible and OG is a significantly better defender than any of our perimeter players. We’ve needed a PoA defender since Grimes’s offense crapped out, and even then Grimes isn’t on OG’s level on or off the ball.
Our offense has been excellent since the first 6 games despite RJs best attempts to sink it. Arguably this improves it thanks to better spacing with OG and just not playing Mr. Moxie himself.
We weren’t using IQ enough, which was a big problem. The waste isn’t in actual production, but potential production that we weren’t benefitting from anyways. Doesn’t make me like that part of the trade better, but wouldn’t surprise me if our record does improve this year playing OG 36mpg instead of IQ 24mpg.
Frank, OG has been the 2, Barnes the 3, for 3 seasons now.
There’s absolutely no doubt OG can be the 3. Before Barnes he played the 3 next to Lowry and FVV/Powell. And as currently constructed, that’s what he’s going to be next to Brunson and DDV/Grimes.
But we have terrible defenders at PG and PF, and you guys are acting like OG is a license to add a third terrible perimeter defender, and perhaps a small one at that. Hell no! We need OG and another big wing. Otherwise we’re just going higher up the mezzanine.
Both Quickley and Barrett are good to very good defenders. To the extent this has allegedly not yet revealed itself, I have the utmost confidence it eventually will.
Or I can count on Brooklyn outbidding us. Seems like they have more to offer now that we shipped IQ & Barrett. Even Miami can probably slap a better package together around Herro.
I think we’re safe.
What EB said.
Defense was clearly the problem, and we addressed it. We will probably need another bench scorer, but that’s a much easier get than a guy like OG.
Who are these teams with all these big wings at the 2? Bucks have Beasley, Philly Melton, Boston usually goes with White and Holiday in the backcourt. Heat when healthy have Herro as their SG. We know the Cavs have a small backcourt as does Atlanta. Orlando’s guards can’t shoot.
This will be the spin of the shills and the propagandists, but, no, they didn’t *have to* include Quickley. They *did* include Quickley. That’s quite a different thing.
And I’m old enough to remember the pedantic lectures around here noting that offense was far more important than defense.
I was also confused by the “small wing” thing. Anunoby is decidedly not a SG and is pretty much the exact player Hubert is saying we now need to acquire, which was true…before we acquired him. It’s hard to be a “bigger wing” than Anunoby, who is 6’7″-6’8″ with a 7’2″ wingspan.
I would say he’s pretty much the perfect player to have if you’re running out a Brunson/Mitchell backcourt, and I don’t think that’s a coincidence. There are just not many teams with enough perimeter firepower to exploit that backcourt if Anunoby is covering their top option.
By BRef, OG has spent 2% of his minutes at the 2 this year, 50% of his minutes at the 2 last year, 27% of his minutes at the 2 the prior year, and single-digit-to-zero minutes at the 2 in all prior years.
For his career, 16% of his minutes have come at the 2, 60% have come at the 3, and 23% have come at the 4. So he’s actually more commonly been a small ball 4 than an enormous ball 2.
They had to include Quickley if they wanted to get the trade done, because the Raptors did not value RJ Barrett highly. Obviously, critique the trade if you think it was bad, but I have no idea what you’re saying here.
The Raptors used OG to defend Jokic.
He plays the best opponent 1-4.
He’s the big wing if you want him to be.
There’s literally zero basis for that statement.
The rest of the basketball world is not Knickerblogger.
The part you allegedly don’t understand is plain, straightforward English, a language in which you appear fluent.
But I can repeat it — just because someone includes an asset in a sports trade does not mean they had to include said asset.
The Raptors don’t have a starting PG. There’s zero chance this gets done without IQ.
And if it did then we’d give up a crap ton somewhere else that you’d complain about.
Okay, so E thinks the Raptors were perfectly willing to make the trade without Quickley, but we insisted on including him. Got it. Seems unlikely to me, but what do I know?
Anyway, now that RJ Barrett is free from the wrath of Julius Randle and Tom Thibodeau’s clogged lanes I’m sure E is ready to confidently predict he will see a meaningful efficiency uptick. This is only sensible based on everything he has ever said on the various topics, so unless he says otherwise I will go ahead and assume he predicts as much.
You’ve misstated it yet again.
The day after I’m on the fence on this trade.
While I undestand the logic behind it, including the politics that made IQ expendable, I think the roster is more balanced now, but less talented.
I think IQ has a fair chance to become immediately a 22/8 starting PG in Toronto, and even become a more valuable player than Brunson in 3 years (their age differential) if only because he’s a much better defender.
This trade has to be the first step to a bigger move and the bigger move must come soon, because Brunson’s and Randle’s contracts won’t be “cheap” forever, next season could easily be the all-in-year for this roster and coach combination.
Finally Leon took a risk and now he needs to take another, but it’s part of the job, he’ll be judged on the results no matter how good or bad the “process” was.
IQ would never have a chance here, I’m happy for him to have one in Canada, now it’s up to him. Godspeed Immanuel.
And a Happy New Year to all the KBloggers!!!
@Max How is Rokas looking these days? Could we bring him over?
You guys are free to think that amongst yourselves, and of course write it — but there’s no evidence for it.
Pagliacci:
Correct. Masai wound up getting a haul for a guy that was going to walk in a few months. All it takes is one sucker, and even better if said sucker winds up bidding against themselves. (The degree to which the bidding was impacted by the conflict of interest the bidder has will be left to the reader.)
Their starting lineup was Schroeder, OG, Barnes, Siakim, Poetl. Last year it was FVV, OG, Barnes, Siakim, and a rotating center.
Barnes is a big wing. Siakim is a forward. Poetl is a center. There is no “shooting guard” on that team. There’s just two interchangeable big wings.
That’s what we should do.
For now, play him at the 3 with DDV at the 2. But for the love of god, when you go all in, do not end up with two tiny guards who can’t play defense and expect OG to make up for it.
I understand having an emotional reaction to trading away Quickley, because I’ve had one too, he was so fun to watch, but it really seems some people are just overrating the hell out of him to keep their own narratives of shitting on this front office alive.
I love the guy, really, and I hope he has a long and successful career. I’d still rather have Anunoby than him.
I’m on record saying we were going to win fewer games this year than last year because other teams improved more than us via either development or major injury return.
I think this trade makes us better because it addresses a negative at SF on both sides of the ball (RJ) and replaces it with a two way positive (OG), gives us the extra length we need defensively against certain matchups, improves the spacing, addresses backup PF, and I think OG will play more minutes per game than IQ.
On the downside we lost a very valuable two way player and bench strength, but I think DDV can replace much of the offense if used on the bench.
On a net basis I think we are mildly better now and have a much clearer picture of what has to happen in the off season or at the next trade deadline to finish the job.
I also think we may not be done this trade deadline. They still have the Fournier contract and may bring in some more bench strength or maybe even make a bigger move for Murray. We can debate that if it happens, but we have to wait a few weeks.
I’m also old enough to remember the days of “Oh everyone who thinks Tom Thibodeau really doesn’t like young players are wrong, oh so very very wrong,” yet here were are as the dust settles … and all the young players are gone.
Add to that the fact that they haven’t drafted any young players the last couple of years (because Tom Thibodeau has no problem with young players, oh no he doesn’t) and it’s like Children of Men around here. I’ll be Clive Owen if geo agrees to be Michael Caine.
I’m not hung up on the inches, just the prototype. Mikal would certainly fit the bill.
OG can be the 3 if the 2 is big enough. But we need two big guys because one’s got to cover for Brunson and the other’s got to cover for Randle.
A boatload of teams wanted OG. He may have been the hottest player available. I read that OG and CAA were telling other teams that he was looking for a max contract and a significant role or he would go into free agency at the end of the year EXCEPT if he played for NY where he would take less and stay.
@gkhenman
For the 2nd straight year Rokas improvements are so little you can say he’s regressing 😉
He’s having a better year, number wise, in ACB, and a worse year in Euroleague, where his shooting percentages are down.
I’ve been following him for three years and he’s more or less the same player, great passer, reluctant shooter, decent defender on the ball. He’s still the backup-PG at Barca (to Satoranski).
Micic, who was a real star here, is having trouble finding playing time in OKC, we just re-signed Deuce, I don’t see Rokas coming here but I can be absolutely wrong…
According to his agents and the GM of his previous team.(*) That and 50 cents used to be able to get you a copy of the New York Times. He obviously isn’t really close to that hot a player. He’s an elite role player, nothing more.(**)
It’s nice of his agents to give the Knicks a “discount” off max, seeing as he isn’t a max player. What a coup for the Knicks.
(*) Read Berman’s tweet. He was one of the primary pitchees.
(**) If that. I still need to see up close for myself.
It wasn’t just agent talk. It was team and NBA league coverage talk about all the teams that wanted OB. If the story is true it was a way of telling the rest of the league “He’s going to NY unless you overpay, so don’t waste your time”.
Since Marc Gasol aged out, the Raptors have been 15th, 10th, 12th, and this year 15th in defensive rating. With Scottie Barnes the last three of those years.
That’s all agents and agendas and a GM trying to build a market. Which he did.
If all he wanted was NYK, it means NYK had all the leverage in trade talks and didn’t use it. (Hint: He didn’t just want NYK.)
Is Randle next?
https://hoopswire.com/knicks-could-trade-julius-randle-next/
E revving up the hijack machine. A regular Somalian pirate, that guy.
Bruno, to be clear, I am not convinced IQ will become an all star (although he very well might). What I do know is he played with a palpable sense of joy, and that made me happy in a very sad world.
On the other hand, RJ played like a privileged asshat, and that made me sad (and mad). And I expect OG to be a very nice asshat replacement. So the trade is quite bittersweet.
With the Knicks having a stretch end of January with 12 of 14 games at home including 1 of the road games at Brooklyn they should pile up wins so will be interesting to see if that affects their trade deadline plans.
Enough about the trades I don’t want us to make…
as for the one we did make…
A day later, I am coming down squarely on Leon’s side of it. I give him a B+ for the move.
Sure, NBA writers and multiple team beat writers have all been saying their teams are interested in trading for OG for the last year and a half all to screw the Knicks. 😉
Reasons for the B+:
– I might have the least amount IQ seller’s remorse on the blog. I love the kid but I’ve always been skeptical. I actually think the organization’s assessment of him (including the limitations of playing him more with Brunson) was correct.
– I think it’s going to be fairly easy to replace what IQ gave us (not necessarily what he could have given us, just what he did give us).
– I don’t think we’ve talked nearly enough about the addition of Precious. Thibs is gonna love this guy. We got him a new Taj.
– my biggest gripe (and the reason I’m not giving it an A) is the inclusion of Detroit’s 2nd. It was an excellent asset and it seemed totally unnecessary to add it.
I don’t think anyone on this blog has ever paid any attention to precious but the thibs is gonna love this guy assessment is probably not going to age well….
he brings things to the table but he also takes plenty off… and not just from taking terrible shots… he’s just a very low bball IQ guy who will do dumb things.. think amare without any of the jumping ability…. he’s the exact opposite of taj who at this stage his athleticism starts becoming a huge minus but he at least positions well and goes in the right direction defensively ….
his defensive ability comes from his immense length for his size and ability to grab boards.. he can also crash the offensive glass which is a plus and a good fit for what we do but you’re gonna be dealing with a lot of BS for all that too….. he’s not some hidden gem at this point unless he massively changes how he is….
The Knicks have another 2nd rd pick in 2024 that should be pretty decent, I think it might be Utah’s?
NBA University
@NBA_University
·
44m
We all have to collectively be ok with the reality that Dejounte Murray is not a very good defender. He is not going to fix your backcourt’s defensive issues.
https://twitter.com/NBA_University/status/1741555755197587482
Re the B+/grade:
OG’s gonna have to do something with those backwash possessions Harper rightly talked about, and he really hasn’t shown any ability to do that. That’s his path to the increased usage he wants, as well … don’t really see a happy ending on this one, hope I’m completely wrong. And he probably won’t see as much in transition given the Knicks slow pace.
More than our position in the standings, I think the way OKC and Orlando physically dominated us was the final straw.
We had back-to-back games against two teams who don’t play anyone smaller than 6’5″ and they both manhandled us.
Wait, they traded two core pieces for a big wing and still need another big wing and this time one that can soak usage and score?
(I see that part disappeared from Hubert’s post in the interim …. I assume it’s still meant.)
This is the ultimate fundamental problem. Best fix is to move Randle.
You’re mistaken…
We needed to acquire a player like OG because we had exactly one big wing on the team.
But we sent the one big wing we had out in the trade to get OG.
Now we still have one big wing (albeit a much better one), so we still need to acquire a player like OG.
And now it also needs to be one who can provide the USG we sent out to get OG.
I was putting it in a different post.
The problem with your assessment is that the core pieces were both deeply flawed.
We still need help, but now this is a fundamentally sound team that is missing pieces. Add the right piece now and you can really take off.
I like that position much more than the team that was fundamentally flawed because if you added pieces to that team the flaws were still gonna kill you.
I’m going to reserve all judgment until I see with my own eyes how the backwash possessions work out.
The schedule’s pretty easy the next six weeks or so, so I anticipate a lot of victory laps — but as with Trump 2020, we won’t really be able to tell what’s really what until the cities count their votes.
There wasn’t a Knicks-led conspiracy to spread the lie that a lot of teams wanted OG Anunoby. There really just aren’t that many big wings who can shoot, defend, and do some shot creation.
The bench scoring definitely projects to be a problem now, such that we’ll probably have to stagger Brunson and Randle more than we currently do. We’ll probably have less of a defined “second unit” and use the bench more situationally. I wouldn’t be shocked if DDV’s outstanding play of late gets him “demoted” to full-time 6th man with Grimes getting the starting job back.
Relatedly, there is definitely now a role on the team for the version of Evan Fournier we last saw in 2022. I have no idea if he can still play NBA basketball but we might want to give him a shot.
I have paid him some attention, largely due to 2020 draft homework. I am happy we got him because lord knows we need bodies at the center position and there is at least theoretically still some upside, but doubt he amounts to much. It’s funny that he shoots so many threes despite being bad at it and not being a good free throw shooter.
I do hope we at least try to coach him up because, again, his upside is better than that offered by Taj Gibson (and Jericho Sims for that matter).
Because you rarely just play things straight, you’ve yet again completely mischaracterized things other people have said, this time into basically the opposite of what was actually said.
I’d advise a re-read of what Pagliacci wrote on the matter and a re-assessment. (Hint: The Knicks didn’t “lead” the “conspiracy,” which wasn’t a “conspiracy” at all — they were suckered in by it.)
Hubert I’m still not really following your logic. How many teams have two big, two-way wings? It’s the Clippers, Celtics, maybe OKC if you want to be somewhat generous positionally…and that’s pretty much it?
I mean, of course it would be awesome if we could snag another but it doesn’t strike me as some kind of necessity.
Also, I don’t see a lot of evidence for the proposition that we desperately need to cover for Randle’s defense at the 4. He has his infuriating moments in transition but I’ve never viewed him as someone opposing 4s (and how many really good ones are there anyway? There’s a reason Randle might make his 3rd all-NBA team despite having so many well documented flaws) can really exploit one-on-one. He’s a terrible rim protector but we don’t use him as one. EPM says he’s hovered around average as a Knick, and that strikes me as correct.
Mmkay. I retain my skepticism that a lot of different beat reporters were saying the teams they covered would like to trade for OG Anunoby pursuant to a conspiracy. However if you have evidence for the proposition you should definitely share it because it would raise a lot of questions about journalistic ethics in the industry.
Wait, it’s controversial to think that a long, switchable wing who is a plus defender and not a zero on offense would be the kind of player who might interest some NBA teams?
This place is weird sometimes.
My unwarranted enthusiasm for Precious has been tempered, but I’m not all out.
Have you ever dated a girl who was obsessed with her ex? That’s Thibs. If he looks at Precious and sees a young Taj, I trust him to obsessively mold him into a young Taj.
No. That’s the strawman mischaracterization.
Starting this year All-NBA teams will be positionless, so it’ll be the “best” 15 players, no matter the defined role (as it should have been since forever).
There’s no “violation of journalistic ethics” particularly in the sports clicks industry if a reporter reports that the team he covered offered X for player Z if the source for that is player Z’s agent or player Z’s team’s GM.
Again — read Berman’s tweet.
All day I’ve been going back and forth about Dejonte vs. Mitchell and the pros and cons of each.
Dejonte will cost less and in theory could be a great defensive pairing with Brunson. You get him, OG and Mith in the starting 5 and that could be a good defensive unit even with Brunson and Randle and he is also a PG who could take all the back up Pg minutes when Brunson sits and Brunson played well off ball with Luka. A Dejonte trade probably leaves the cupboard more full afterwards of picks so you could continue to draft or maybe even make one more trade after that trade for another rotation piece.
But then again Donovan Mitchell is one of the best offensive players in the league. You get him, Brunson and Randle and you have a true top three scoring threats and three dudes who all are capable of taking over and scoring 40 or even 50 points and winning a game all on their own. Come playoff time that is a huge thing. And Mitchell’s post season failures I think are a bit overblown bc he’s had playoff games where he’s scored 50 points.
So I think at the end of the day unless Luka or booker or Giannis, etc…becomes available you gotta go big or go home and get Mitchell.
Well, now I am convinced
Yeah, he’s only a guy who’s been in that agenda-spinning industry for like multiple decades. What does he know about it, as opposed to … a dude on the internet.
It’s because you keep posing it like this:
That’s the wrong question.
The right question is “how many teams have two guys you need to guard?” And the answer is pretty much all of them.
I am not saying every NBA team needs two big two-way wings.
I am saying if your PG is a sieve and your PF is a sieve and your C is rim bound… you need two big defenders and there’s only two positions left so it has to be a wing.
If Randle could defend like Bam Adebayo, then we wouldn’t need another OG. If you trade Jalen Brunson for Jalen Suggs or Julius Randle for Evan Mobley, then we don’t need another OG.
But this team? This team needs another good perimeter defender. One is not enough.
You know, E, if most of your posts are you saying you’re being misunderstood or mischaracterized, perhaps in the end the fault is not ours…
Lil penny you’re doing the thing that so many Knicks naysayers do about any player we trade for or sign. You say no one else wanted them since we got them. This logical fallacy has been used for countless players and it’s just not true.
You have no idea who “wanted” OG bc we’re the ones who ended up getting him. Maybe it will come out that someone else made an offer or maybe not. Or maybe someone made a better offer last year, Toronto turned them down thinking they could do better and now they’ve settled for this bc they misjudged. We just don’t know bc none of us know how many calls happen between GMs regarding potential trades.
This exact argument was made about Josh hart. It was made about Randle when he initially signed here as a free agent.
But it’s dumb bc there’s no way to refute it or to prove it right.
We know OG is a good player and we know that he’s now on the Knicks. Maybe we overpaid, maybe Toronto got fleeced. Time will tell. But this “no one else wanted him bc we got him” narrative is utter bullshit.
Randle is not “a sieve” on defense. He’s actually a pretty good one on one defender when engaged against most PFs.
He’s not a plus but he’s not really a minus except when he loses focus or takes plays off. And he’s also not a great help defender.
Now Brunson is a sieve for the most part. It I think it’s unfair to call Randle a sieve on defense.
Nah Raven. He’s just too smart for us to understand him.
But Randle is not tasked with Bam Adebayo’s job, he has played all of 5% of his minutes at center since joining the Knicks. His job is to defend the opposing team’s power forward, and I don’t see much evidence he’s a big liability in that role.
I think EPM’s assessment that he’s more or less average is right. He’s never stood out much by FG% – DFG% either, in his years on the Knicks he’s put up -0.3, +1, -4.1, -3.6, and -2.7 in order of recency.
Obviously none of these numbers are definitive and I hate when he doesn’t get back in transition, has his low-effort moments, etc. but my eye-test and the numbers just don’t support the notion this is some enormous problem we have to go out of our way to address.
The conundrum with Randle is that the 5 is his best offensive position but he’s untenable there defensively. The fact that we have to play him with a true center at most/all times is a real issue, but a totally separate one from having to cover for his defense at the 4, which is never something that’s been a big problem.
Everyone here is easily smart enough to understand an agent and a GM trying to generate a really strong and active market for their player through the press; they’re just willingly distorting that statement in order to “win” an internet argument. (Everyone here is easily smart enough to understand distorting a statement to win an internet argument, too.)
Just so we’re keeping track, CAA snookered Ryan Wolstat into reporting the Blazers wanted Anunoby, Brian Windhorst into reporting the Raptors refused to put him on the table for Dame, James Edwards into reporting the Pistons were interested, Marc Stein into reporting the Grizzlies made multiple runs at him, CJ Holmes into reporting the Warriors tried to get him, Bryan Kalbrosky into reporting the Pelicans wanted him, Michael Scotto into reporting the Jazz wanted him, and JFC there’s more this is the dumbest thing anyone has ever said here.
I would encourage everyone to avoid entertaining the troll. Thanks.
Would be funny if the Pacers traded for Siakam and sent Obi to play with Quickley again.
By the way seeing how great Randle has been without Mitch clogging up the lane reinforces that we should’ve traded for porzingis. We prob could still have landed OG. Then we’d have Brunson DDV OG Randle and KP. That would be an amazing offense.
It’s also gobsmackingly obvious that players like OG Anunoby are in high demand in the current NBA. He’s the prototypical modern defender. It’s silly to act like nobody wanted Anunoby, or whatever convoluted point you’re making.
Contract aside, what about LaVine? He shoots the ball very well and could easily be a 20/5/5 guy on this team at a 50/40/90 clip that could play better defense once he and Mitch are healthy. He’s better off the ball than Murray and maybe even Mitchell. We all agree that we want the ball in Brunson’s hands when it counts, right? This isn’t a trade I’d necessarily advocate for, but maybe LaVine would be a nice fit now that we have OG. Tbh..I’d rather Leon try to overwhelm Brooklyn with picks so we can have Bridges at SG, but I doubt Mark’s would send him across town. But the more I think about it, we need a better SG than DDV so we can let he and Hart run that 2nd unit. Flipping Achiuwa for Drummond would be nice too. Suppose we could get a LaVine or Murray for the rest of the season with a few 1sts left over. Then we could decide on if we want to pay Hartenstein to stay and move LaVine or Murray for a better SG if the chemistry with Brunson isn’t great in the offseason. Hypothetically, a core of Mitch/Randle/OG/LaVine or Murray/Brunson/Hartenstein/ Hart/DDV/ Deuce sounds pretty damn good. Or..if we really want Donovan, we’d have the means to add him easily with Murray or LaVine on the team.
Another idea I’d love Leon to pursue would be Grimes, Fournier, and a couple of firsts for Vassell. Pop is out there just playing around with his backcourt and they probably can afford to move one of Vassell or Johnson’s Contract. So maybe we can convince them to give us Vassell?
I presume you say “in theory” because Dejounte’s defensive ability is theoretical at this point.
Someone has to be tasked with Adebayo’s job (a job that included covering Julius Randle and Jayson Tatum). If you want to give that to OG, great…. then someone has to be tasked with Jimmy Butler’s defensive job… you giving that to Mitchell? Brunson?
Bottom line is you are trying to say that you can build a team around one good perimeter defender and three bad ones. I highly doubt that.
Yes that is why I said in theory but when a player who isn’t old and hasn’t had a big injury has a decline like that I have to assume it’s bc of their current role/situation that they’re unhappy with and therefore they aren’t giving their best effort. It’s always a gamble to assume that, of course.
So let’s look at the OG trade through a different lens.
First, what was IQ’s current trade market, draft-capital-wise? What could Leon have gotten back in a straight IQ trade right now, given his contract situation?
My guess is a single unprotected first and maybe a protected first or a second. I’m happy to entertain dissenting opinions, since this is merely a guess. There is ample evidence that perceptions around the league suggested that OG was worth more than that, but has anyone seen any evidence that IQ was worth more than that?
So if you looked at the trade without IQ being included, it becomes RJ and an unprotected first plus two seconds (or let’s say one of the protected firsts) for OG, Precious, and Flynn.
Prior to yesterday, there was zero reason to believe that OG could be had for that price. I think that most KB posters would have been ecstatic if that trade was available.
Now it could be argued that IQ had more value to us than the assets we could have gotten back from trading him. That’s fair, but it doesn’t really matter for the sake of the discussion about whether we overpaid for OG. Because whatever IQ might become, he is what he is now and is valued around the league at this moment accordingly.
I don’t think it can possibly be argued that it was an overpay in that context.
It could certainly be argued that it was not the best way forward…that holding on to IQ and paying him this offseason, possibly by matching an offer sheet, was a better way to go. But that’s a strategic issue, not a tactical one.
“I would encourage everyone to avoid entertaining the troll. Thanks.”
Which one?
The player we are still missing plays the position of “superstar,” and those guys are usually two-way players. We don’t have a lot of guys who are two way players, we have guys that do one thing or the other for the most part.
OK, JK. You’ve convinced me. We should trade for Jokic!
“…don’t really see a happy ending on this one, hope I’m completely wrong.”
E’s posting in a nutshell
Randle isn’t a bad defender though. Like when we play Boston or the bucks he usually plays Tatum or Giannis to a draw. Those dudes are gonna get theirs no matter who defends them but Randle usually doesn’t let them go off more than they normally do and he matches them on the other end and can even sometimes outplay them.
Like the KP deal, it’s all about the second move. OG, in and of himself, doesn’t change this team all that much (especially with Mitch out). The key is that this now puts the team closer to “all in,” and they will almost assuredly be making a move for another star player, and if you’re going small with Brunson and, say, Mitchell (and, come on, Mitchell is clearly who they’re going to eventually end up with at some point), then the team makes a lot of sense with OG.
Now, will Brunson/Mitchell/OG/Randle/Mitch be enough to win a title? Probably not, but it’d be the best Knicks team since the 2012-13 team, and capable of competing at a high level for a few years until they have to tear it down, unlike the 2012-13 team, which clearly had no long term future.
we need a new year thread about how good this team is post trade win wise….. because I have a feeling people are gonna be quite disappointed in the real world results despite how good the ‘theoreterical’ fit is…
Oh wow. DJ has a super pessimistic take on the Knicks!
Never change!
I go back to Hubs point a few weeks ago about chaos theory/variance in a playoff series when.m I say we should pull the trigger on a Mitchell deal.
With Mitchell, Brunson and Randle you have a slim chance that they all go nuclear for a few months during a playoff run and we win a title. I can’t see that happening with Dejonte. Brunson and Mitchell are capable of winning you a playoff game all by themselves. Randle hasn’t been good yet in the playoffs but with those two he’d get so many easy buckets if one or both of them were going off.
That’s pretty much my entire point. I know it’s not rocket science.
If the next player we get is a two-way star, we’re a contender. If it’s Mitchell or Murray, we’re just a better mezzanine team.
and swifty is doing the always positive but being quite nasty to people because he doesn’t like what they say…. while being the self annointed fun guy of the blog…
i won’t change.. but please in the new year.. man to man… you really should think about it…
I was suggesting taking a low cost (nearly free) flier on Bojan bc hot shooting can beat better teams.
You should never ever ever use your entire war chest to build an inferior team that needs miraculous shooting to win.
Anyways… happy new years, fellas… I like this trade and am more optimistic about Leon than I have been at any point in his tenure… I think he’s almost painted himself into a corner but there is a clear way out if he’s patient… trading for Mitchell would be losing patience and walking across the wet paint… don’t do that.
Cheers!
From Hoopswire:
Reading the comments here and various press evaluations, the differences in opinion seem to revolve mostly around how good Quickley is. Hollinger likes the trade better for Toronto because he likes Quickley better than OG (but he thinks the trade is still good for NY). Pagliacci hates the trade because he thinks IQ will be a star. Hubert likes the trade because he believes Quickley’s role on the Knicks was appropriate.
It’s hard to evaluate how Quickley will do as a starter. He’s going to be defended harder in Toronto as a starter than he was on the bench here or when he was next to Brunson who would draw a lot of offensive attention. IQ will also probably draw tougher defensive assignments in Toronto than here.
IQ could do very well in Toronto but probably will take some time to adjust to his new role. I like the trade for NY anyway. We didn’t bit a home run, but we had a usage problem with guards and solved that and improved our small forward position a lot.
And happy new year to everyone
Despite the poor shooting, I liked what Fournier gave us last night. He was hunting 3s, shooting in rhythm, and attacked the paint on hard closeouts. A lot of it was self generated.
I would give him a chance to replace some of IQ’s shot creation on the second unit. Worst case scenario, he fails and goes back into the hoodie. But if he shows something it will ease the pressure on Leon to get another scorer immediately.
Hubs, I get what you’re saying but Donovan Mitchell is really fucking good at scoring. He’s like Dame level good.
The defense would be an issue obvs but that’s what OG and (hopefully) Mitch are for. Randle is fine when engaged and could probably exert more energy on defense if he was playing along Brunson and Mitchell.
Throw in IHart, hart, McBride, DDV on the bench…I think you’d have enough good defense from the roll players to make it work. And with Brunson, Mitchell and Randle you have three dudes who all can go nuclear in any given game.
Or put another way. Most nights when both Randle and Brunson are on, we can beat most teams. Against elite teams though we need them both on and RJ plus good play from the role players but that rarely happened (mainly cause RJ sucks at putting the ball in the basket). With mitchell, you could see all three of those dudes being in against Boston or the bucks, no?
It’s wild how Raps fans are acting like RJ hasn’t been one of the worst players in the league for several years in a row. They are excited!
The Knicks already have a guy who plays “winner” position. Now you’re just getting greedy.
As for the trade, I don’t have much of an opinion on it, but I’ll miss reading the RJ is still young posts, they were kind of cute.
Also, I like how Strat “I only believe verified sources that I consult first hand” Omatic is now citing the rumor aggregator HoopsWire.com in his arguments. The man has come half-circle.
“As for the trade, I don’t have much of an opinion on it, but I’ll miss reading the RJ is still young posts, they were kind of cute.”
I’m sorry Sir, that ship has sailed…
Happy New Year! Wishing you all a great 2024!
feliz ano neuvo todos
Happy New Year!!