2021-22 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Reggie Jackson, Marcus Morris and Three Ballboys in Clippers Jerseys

The Knicks host the Paul George and Kawhi Leonard-less Clippers at the Garden in a matinee that the Knicks desperately need to win to keep their playoff hopes alive (and since they’re never going to rebuild, we might as well root for the playoffs).

Let’s go, Knicks!

261 replies on “2021-22 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Reggie Jackson, Marcus Morris and Three Ballboys in Clippers Jerseys”

Happy to see Noel back and eager to watch how Thibs will use Reddish.

Let’s Go Knicks.

Well, if they don’t miss a three, gonna be a fun day…

Cyber….okay. My son went back to work today. My wife has no symptoms, and my lingering chest and head cold continues.

Even the FTs go in? What’s this? I’m not use to this level of basketball anymore! 😀

Kawhi and PG-13 are really overrated, they’re doing nothing in this game, maybe it’s our defense…

Steve Popper
@StevePopper
“Knicks are huddled up in timeout, thibs jotting game plans. Julius was wandering around the court. Then went and talked with his family. Just a little strange.”

This is ….not good

Max:
Kawhi and PG-13 are really overrated, they’re doing nothing in this game, maybe it’s our defense…

Invisible sixth man earning his paycheck

d-mar: Julius was wandering around the court. Then went and talked with his family. Just a little strange

What?? If i was the coach, he’d be automatically subbed.

How old is Ibaka?

I remember years ago they used to debate how old he really was.

Noel is so disruptive on defense. Feels great to see opponents try to beat Grimes & Noel on the PnR

This is Harlem Globetrotters – Washington Generals
and Randle is doing his Meadowlark Lemon impression chirping with the ref…

If we could “frankenstein” Mitch’s offense with Noel’s defense, that’d be a hell of a player.

I like the way that Mitch is getting behind the defense to snag those offensive rebounds.

It’s amazing how good the Clippers are despite missing a superstar player and consistent all star player.

Help me remember..

Did Fournier have leg injuries last season? He is looking super cooked

“Bad Randle has returned….”

Randle has returned…..

Fixed it for you. 🙂

The Knicks plus-minus distribution is very balanced between starters and bench. That’s good, right?

I don’t think that RJ heave should count against his 3P%. Most players would have waited just long enough for it to not count. :-).

Deeefense!!:
I don’t think that RJ heave should count against his 3P%.Most players would have waited just long enough for it to not count. :-).

Haha! He’ll learn. He did have a good half, though.

I’d like to see Cam play well and the Knicks move on from Fournier. Evan’s game is weak sauce and just seems to irk me.

DudeInKnicksTown:
I’d like to see Cam play well and the Knicks move on from Fournier. Evan’s game is weak sauce and just seems to irk me.

I actually think he’s been tougher on D lately than he was early on. Anyone else think that?

Damn I wish RJ could be more consistent, games like this give you hope but then he usually follows it up with a clunker

It’s amazing how good the Clippers are despite missing a superstar player and consistent all star player.

They’re pretty deep and Ty Lue is a terrific coach

DRed:
Very glad Nerlens is back let’s hope he can get some games in

Yeah, he’s no Mitch “Iron Man” Robinson…

They heard Clyde – no isos and more dishing. Now can they try this for a longer period than a part of a game?

Z-man: I actually think he’s been tougher on D lately than he was early on. Anyone else think that?

With the caveat that the starting level is really low I agree, he’s been a little better or at least he’s trying harder lately.

Anyone else notice that Grimes has a terrible flaw on D, he lunges and turns his right shoulder and crosses his right foot over and either fouls or gets blown by?

Not to be a downer on a pretty good day (so far) but after Obi’s dunk and RJ’s dunk, Randle was nowhere to be seen on the bench during the timeout celebration

I don’t know what’s going on with that dude, but it’s not good

d-mar: Randle was nowhere to be seen on the bench during the timeout celebration

Yeah, that’s a situation to keep an eye on.

Randle playing like a guy who desperately wants to prove a forum poster that goes by “thenoblefacehumper” wrong

I will venture to say that for the rare games where RJ and Randle both play well we have a good chance to beat most teams

cybersoze:
Classic Randle with the shot clock violation

Yeah, but who told his teammates to stand as still as light poles on the far side of the court?

Moments like that, I miss McBuckets.

It really is difficult for this team to put together a complete 48 minute performance.

Perfunctory 5 minutes for Reddish. Rose needs to trade Burks.

Grimes isn’t better than Reddish, either, but no interest in belaboring it.

I was going to say I kind of liked this version of Randle with the relatively quiet 24 points, but then I saw the 7 turnovers…!

I never thought I’d find myself saying “I wish Cam Reddish would get more playing time” but here we are

Just kind of another one of those pretty much meaningless wins against a banged-up team that does literally nothing for the future or player development. Good to see RJ play well, though, obviously.

Raven:
I was going to say I kind of liked this version of Randle with the relatively quiet 24 points, but then I saw the 7 turnovers…!

And the shot lock violation isn’t one of them (it counts as “Team Turnover”).

Obi 8 minutes, Reddish 5.

Next games: at Cle, at Milw, at Mia.
Next Sunday morning we can reassess…

E, all merc’d out: Just kind of another one of those pretty much meaningless wins against a banged-up team that does literally nothing for the future or player development. Good to see RJ play well, though, obviously.

Is RJ a vet? Or can we call him having a good game development?

Max: Obi 8 minutes, Reddish 5.
Next games: at Cle, at Milw, at Mia.
Next Sunday morning we can reassess…

No Max, please reassess now. Next sunday it’ll be a lot more depressing. 😛

E, all merc’d out:
Just kind of another one of those pretty much meaningless wins against a banged-up team that does literally nothing for the future or player development.Good to see RJ play well, though, obviously.

Agree, though I cringe when I see RJ at 43 minutes.

Even when Randle isn’t chucking he manages to almost single handedly give the game to the clippers through horrific turnovers and serious lapses of judgment. He gave away like four possessions at the end of the game! The ball really cannot be in his hands and the only thing that might make that the case is that we consistently get Good RJ. Better start hoping

cybersoze: No Max, please reassess now. Next sunday it’ll be a lot more depressing. 😛

Okay, we avoid disaster against a mediocre team missing its two best players and ended our homestand 1-3, two of the losses coming with under .500 teams.

Our “stars” did play so well that one of them has 7 turnovers and the other shot 6-19 from 2.
Plus, our starting center went down with an injured ankle.

🙂

what’s funny …is that other teams don’t double Randle because they fear him scoring one on one…it’s that they know 50 percent of the time that dude will turn it over if you double him..

83 minutes for Randle and Barrett in a Sunday matinee against a crippled Clippers team. Jesus Christ.

We won a game in which the basketball version of Reggie Jackson was our main antagonist, and we didn’t even really do a great job of slowing THAT scrub down.

This will probably be the win that fucks up the tank enough so we miss out on a good player. Knickzzzzz

By the end of the Was/Bos game we’ll be .5 ahead of Boston and in sole possession of the final play-in spot, or tied with Was for the final play-in spot.

Unlikely we stay there, but I’ll happily take it for now.

Draft wise I dont think theres a huge difference in talent between like 8-14 which is where we will end up most likely. More lotto balls is preferred ofc but cant get mad at games where RJ plays this well.

We just need to avoid another Kevin Knox debacle.

I will repeat that if after every win you want rah-rah shit that ignores all bigger picture analysis, might I refer you to “any other Knicks0based website that exists.” We talk about the team in more nuanced ways here and we’re going to continue to do so.

I don’t even get the “argument” for foregoing this kind of analysis. Is arguing that not all wins are the best possible outcome for the team’s long-term health going to make the team worse? Does it make people sad to read?

If you actually disagree with something someone says just say so, don’t say they shouldn’t be saying it for some weird reason. There’s plenty of garbage that has rightfully gotten people banned from this site, but “being a realist” will never be in that category,

@FredKatz
RJ Barrett on if he feels like he can carry the Knicks at a high level: “I don’t feel like I’ve done anything so far…I’m hungry.”

Not to be that one pessimist..but I’m not impressed with the win. Happy we finally won, but I feel like it’s fool’s gold. That I’d the last thing we need with the way we’ve played the 3 prior games. I could sense that Randle feels like the man again, but I still saw too many BAD mistakes. I did like what I saw our of RJ and his anger response. Remember how Jordan used to respond like that when he was pissed? That is a great trait to have. And I LOVED his post-game interview. He all but said “this is my team” today. Maybe this can cool some of the fire around Randle. I do like how Julius and Noel played regardless of the fool’s gold though, I just don’t want this game to give Jules the confidence that turns him into bad Julius. Julius is awesome when he lets the game come to him and shoots without thinking twice.

Godspeed Mitch!

Beat a team that started Amir Covfefe. And it was close enough to keep Joe Scrubb from getting any minutes. Any other takeaways from this one that I’m not getting from the boxscore?

Knickerblogger: “The place to go to bitch about losses…and wins”

(And btw the Clippers just beat the Sixers in Philly. They’re not a great team, but they don’t suck )

Max: Okay, we avoid disaster against a mediocre team missing its two best players and ended our homestand 1-3, two of the losses coming with under .500 teams.
Our “stars” did play so well that one of them has 7 turnovers and the other shot 6-19 from 2.
Plus, our starting center went down with an injured ankle.
🙂

I thought today wouldn’t be a depressing reassessment. 🙁

Im all good just a little tweak— Mitchell Robinson (@23savage____) January 23, 2022

For as injury prone as Mitch has been, with the exception of last season it’s almost always little stuff we freak out about and then we learn from his twitter that it’s DTD.

I haven’t seen a shot chart yet, but an eye-test based positive takeaway for me was that Randle seemed to mostly limit himself to 3PA and shots at the rim. Also RJ didn’t shoot particularly well but it was still nice to see him with the ball in his hands attacking the basket a lot. He looked the part of the big wing playmaker we want.

What I find insufferable is expecting jubilation when we empty all our ammo to beat Reggie Jackson, Marcus Morris, and three ballboys in Clippers uniforms. To each his own.

Good news on Mitch, I hope he’s able to go tomorrow, we’ll need him against Allen and Mobley.

Knickerblogger in a nutshell:

“Ty Lue is a great coach, he has this team punching above their weight, impressive that they’re close to .500”

“How could we not beat such a terrible team?”;

cybersoze: I thought today wouldn’t be a depressing reassessment. 🙁

Jokes aside RJ had a good game, Randle was better than his last few games and luckily Mitch’s injury looks more like a big scare.

But this was a game we couldn’t lose (can you imagine the situation if we would have gone 0-4 in the homestand?), against another under .500 team and we played RJ and Randle 83 minutes combined while Obi and Reddish were nailed to the bench (and IQ played 18).

The next three games will be much more meaningful to define our “real” value and maybe our future for the season (I hope we’ll go 3-0, I’ll never cheer against the Knicks).

I mean, I’m not mad at this win, but it’s a fair question at this point whether or not these marginal wins are beneficial. We’re really not very good, and I’d really rather try to move some of the veteran pieces we have here and acquire some long-term assets rather than hold onto all of them in a pointless chase for the 10th seed and the play-in game.

But who am I kidding? Chasing a low playoff seed in “win now” fashion is pretty much the default setting of this ish. Glad we were able to hold Basketball Reggie under 50 and eke this one out.

Up until the trade deadline we play Cavs, Bucks, Heat, Grizz, Lakers, jazz, Nuggets and Kings. Could see 2-6 or 1-7 potentially during that stretch.

KevinR:
Up until the trade deadline we play Cavs, Bucks, Heat, Grizz, Lakers, jazz, Nuggets and Kings. Could see 2-6 or 1-7 potentially during that stretch.

I think par for the course would be 3-6. But yeah, a worse record would not surprise me. Going 4-5 would be extremely impressive, and it’s very unlikely.

Lakers, Denver, & Sac are all very beatable.

All I really want is to be assured there’s something resembling a plan or direction. If we’re going to chase the 10th seed, I want to know why.

Is the idea that doing so will somehow help us get better in the future, or is it just because it would make the people who put this team together feel less embarrassed and worry less about their job security? We as fans have an investment in the former, not the latter.

Last season we won 47 games (prorated) and had a lot of cap space. It made sense to try to add more wins because at least theoretically a 47 win team that gets better can approach contention. I have my issues with how it was executed, but that was the plan and it made some sense.

I could not tell you for the life of me what the plan is now, but I get the impression there’s a lot of ass covering involved. I don’t root for ass covering.

The lead passes by Quickley. Fournier shooting in rhythm. Barrett double figure boards. A bit of pace & movement. Nothing profound at all, but a nice little, enjoyable divertissement on a very bitter NYC afternoon – and with the plum of knowing the straining, hemorrhoidal, angst it might engender.

The plan has been exactly the same ever since Tom Thibodeau walked through the door and that’s to do whatever he deems most appropriate to win the next varsity basketball game. Little else matters to him, and he’s said exactly that a bunch of times. That’s also his plan for personnel moves and the draft and more often than not that philosophy has carried the day. Not every single time, but where his philosophy doesn’t carry the day, he passive-aggressives out and blubbers about his established rotation and then plays Cam Reddish five minutes.

Getting a shot at making it into the playoffs is justification enough to chase the 10th seed. I don’t think it needs to be the means to some further end.

Yeah, I gotta say I’d rather play for the future rather than aim for the play-in game. You’re a below average basketball team by definition if you’re in the play-in game. That is meaningless in and of itself. It’s a pretty lackluster accomplishment.

Is E mad that Cam Reddish played 5 minutes or mad that someone not an old win now vet like Cam didn’t play those 5 minutes

Regarding draft position Indiana, Portland, Boston and Atlanta have the 30th, 27th, 25th and 24th ranked SOS remaining.

Making the 10th seed isn’t very impressive, especially if you lose game 1. But it’s also a completely reasonable goal for an NBA team to pursue.

It’s bad longterm strategy but not everything is longterm strategy.

The whole point of adding the play in tourney is to try to get more teams going for the playoffs. MLB is also dealing with teams not giving a shit about making the playoffs so they want to add more playoff teams, granted that’s also to make more money. NFL has added extra playoff teams too

The whole fucking point of sports is competition and making the playoffs should be every single team’s goal.

Yeah, the point of sports is competition, as in competing for an actual title, not “competing” for the honor of being the 20th best team in the NBA and hoping you survive a one-game playoff against some other worse than league average team so you can then get swept by the actual contending teams who are actually competing for something meaningful.

Which is better in the interest of competitiveness:

1. Squeaking into the 10th seed and not converting any veterans into assets

2. Missing the playoffs but acquiring some pieces that are useful in the future

I know what my answer is.

There are 7 other teams that are one or two games above or below 500 and then 9 teams that are decidedly worse. If you look at the NBA landscape right now we really aren’t in some awful purgatory that team pessimist makes us out to be in. We’ve got a mix of youngsters and vets, are in the playoff hunt and have several vet contracts we can trade next year to open up cap space and possibly get back assets. We also have lots of picks in our cupboard. Our team lacks a real superstar and Randle is frustrating g right now but our ability to get a huge star if one comes available either through trade or free agency is very much on the table. Bemoaning useless wins when our 21 year old started had a great game is just so boring. I’d rather be hopeful even if the road is bumpy and there are setbacks.

Actually the point of sports is entertainment. The bulls were an 8th seed the first year Jordan made the playoffs and they got swept by the Celtics but Jordan put up 65 in a now legendary game. Teams that went on to win championships years later were pointless 7th and 8th seeds at one point. The warriors beat the mass as an 8th seed. If the team is fun and competing and has enough young players that can improve that I can see them getting better, I’d much rather root for that than lottery picks that may or may not turn out. Rooting for lottery position is indicative of the capitalist rot that has infiltrated our society. If you’re not a billionaire what’s the point of life, right?

Yes cause trading Burks and getting more future 2nd rd picks is pure genius and will definitely speed up the championship or bust timeline.

Now listen I’m more than OK with trading Randle and really restarting this team’s timeline. I’d enjoy watching more of the youngsters get more playing time even if it means more losses and definitely missing the playoffs. But considering everyone here thinks Randle and Fournier suck and have no value what future assets are you expecting to get back for them?

You can’t say on one hand the veterans suck and have no value then in the next sentence talk about trading the veterans for future assets as the best plan.

It’s not the useless win itself that really worries me. It’s the idea that we’re a “playoff team” and therefore can’t move precious assets, like Alec Burks for instance, because he’s essential to our “playoff push.” Really who gives a shit about our fake playoff push. We’ve been like the 20th best team in the NBA all year.

It’s pretty clear this team is not going to be very good, so I’d rather start focusing on next year’s team and beyond. We should be sellers, that seems very clear to me. We’re not in a hopeless situation, but hanging onto these vets because we need to chase the 10th seed would be a mistake.

Funny —if we beat Cleveland on Monday we’ll have the exact same record as we did after 48 games (24-24) last year during our incredibly exciting “miracle” year.

“Insufferable” is exactly right, BBA.

ess-dog:
Funny —if we beat Cleveland on Monday we’ll have the exact same record as we did after 48 games (24-24) last year during our incredibly exciting “miracle” year.

“Insufferable” is exactly right, BBA.

It’s cool, I don’t mind the opposing views it’s what makes this site great. I’ve been reading and commenting on this site since the day Isiah finally got fired, thats how I found this site. I was searching for articles talking about Isiah finally being gone and I found a post on this site about it and have been hooked ever since. But yeah man people immediately shitting on a pretty quality win can be annoying, at least wait until the morning news thread the next day lol.

As a fan…i prefer winning to losing….as a fan…sure…I would like to get a crack at being in a playoff series…so yeah…if we make the play in game…that’s cool and see where the chips fall…maybe we get it together and get on a magic carpet ride…..and you gotta start somewhere…even if it is against the clippers B squad…

With that being said…I am not happy about our eggs in the Randle basket…he seems extremely fragile in his mental state and he is not the person that I want to run my “last few” possessions offense through…which leads me to our fearless curmudgeon leader…who supports this usage of Randle but I assume he looks around and deems it the optimal way to get “tonight’s win by any means necessary” ….so ….it is what it is..

This road trip and the next long one should be revealing…but as long as they’re nipping at the heels of the 10th seed…all is well…

We’ve got a mix of youngsters and vets, are in the playoff hunt and have several vet contracts we can trade next year to open up cap space and possibly get back assets. We also have lots of picks in our cupboard.

We have exactly one surplus first-rounder, and it’s top 10 protected from a good team. We had another, but you might have heard a bit about what we decided to do with it.

I refuse to believe that, if asked before the season, anyone now defending a literal push for the 10th seed would’ve said that’s a worthwhile goal if it comes at the direct expense of collecting future assets (which it does).

The NBA is not like the MLB and NFL–plenty of teams make the playoffs who have a 0% chance of winning a championship. There is no inherent value to making the playoffs. It absolutely should be a means to an end. You can say sports is about entertainment yadda yadda yadda, but what is even the entertainment value of losing a series 0-4 with a point differential of -70?

I’d have no problem making the play-in game if it was done the right way. Cobbling together a bunch of mercs and geezers with that as your objective, however, is … not the right way.

TNFH, what future assets are you talking about acquiring? What can you possibly get for Burks? You were the first person to say Randle’s contract now is untradable, you’ve been high on Fournier in the past but I can’t imagine you honestly think they can get anything of value for him right now.

So what do you honestly think the Knicks can do at the deadline to acquire future assets beside losing a bunch of games down the stretch themselves to miss the playoffs and at best get a borderline Top 10 pick of their own? Trade Mitch and RJ because they will become expensive to keep soon?

Given how much flatter the lottery odds are, it’s a bit silly to bemoan a win that might possibly propel us to the 10th seed. I am pretty sure the front office won’t make a win-now trade unless somehow the bad juju that surrounds this team somehow evaporates. That would take a lot of wins through the worst part of our schedule. Seems unlikely.

Combine that with Al’s comment about the trade value of our “assets” and I don’t see how any reasonable person doesn’t just ride this season out and wait for the necessary moves in the off-season, by which time some of the assets may have redeemed themselves.

My thing is I like Burks and Noel, I’m sure every team would gladly trade for them. But realistically you’re talking about 2nd rd picks unless maybe a team would be willing to trade a 1st rd pick that will most likely finish in the bottom of the rd like the Clippers did for Marcus Morris. Is it worth trading Burks, Noel or even Rose for a late 1st rd pick? Absolutely. But I doubt it’s realistic and the fact is not doing so will not alter the course of the franchise.

If I ever complain about winning, it’s only about the way we win (eg poor offensive system, poor allocation of minutes, wasted opportunities to learn about young players, etc.). I hope that’s not “insufferable.” I’m definitely still lounging in the bar car on the Swifty Optimist Express where I will be drunk all season long (50wins is still in reach!)

I’m also humble enough to admit I never considered things like the “win curve” until I landed on this site years ago. For that I am grateful, and I respect guys like JK47 warning against useless wins and playoff runs. But I ALSO believe, as BBA suggests above, that “future potential” is a shiny object that one can chase forever with no joy.

IMO Swift has it exactly right that the purpose of sport is entertainment — for me, the narrative is all — and what would entertain me most is for our young draft picks (or our acquired “castoffs” like Randle) to turn into superstars and win a championship. My favorite Knicks stories have been those of John Starks and Jeremy Lin.

From this particular team, I feel like we’re tantalizingly close to finding some version of the 1990s Yankees core four. It may not be our current guys — RJ, IQ, Obi, Mitch — but I want Thibs to be chasing that dream with every rotation. And I would never trade rosters with, say, the Nets because buying the ring is boring.

Now, would I have rather drafted Miles Bridges? Yes.

Well, the good news for y’all is that standing pat, hanging onto all the vets and pushing for that 10th seed like our lives depended on it is almost the certain outcome.

Maybe if we keep on doing the same thing over and over again we’ll eventually get a different result.

The minutes distribution was terrible today and the win will empower Thibodeau to think he should continue with similar minutes distributions. Therefore, the win is nothing to fully celebrate. Pretty simple logic.

Ultimately, incinerating the team’s future to chase the 10th seed on the backs of geezers and mercs is something the FO will have to decide whether they’re comfortable with. If they decide that they are, this is just same old, same old. Hopefully, they will make a wiser choice. It doesn’t seem like they are comfortable with that idea, since they just traded a (kind of) 1 for a high-upside guy who needs to play … but we’ll see how it shakes out.

TNFH, what future assets are you talking about acquiring?

You answered your own question in your next post, but there’s also the fact that wins sabotage your draft position and thus worsen an existing future asset.

But I doubt it’s realistic and the fact is not doing so will not alter the course of the franchise.

When you constantly have to say “we should probably doing [X smart thing], but it’s not a big deal in the grand scheme of things,” it’s probably the case that the accumulation of these wasted opportunities is in fact a big deal.

Few moves/non-moves “alter the course of a franchise” on their own, but a general pattern of not making smart moves is exactly what determines the course of a franchise

For fans of a team that missed out on Steph Curry and Ja Morant by one pick to then argue that ping pong balls and finish position don’t matter is a bit odd.

I just always find it odd when Knicks fans of all people say the 8th seed is pointless. We literally went to the finals as an 8th seed and that team also underperformed in the regular seasons and felt with injuries before gelling at just the right time. That was the run that sealed the seal for me as far as being a Knicks fan so I will never say he 8th seed is pointless.

The 1998-1999 Knicks were 5th in the NBA in preseason championship odds, and all of 6 games separated the 1st seed from the 8th seed that year. That team also at least had a legitimately elite defense, so it was a lot easier to foresee actual success in the playoffs.

If any of that stuff applied to this team I might feel differently.

With all due respect JK and others, this team continues to be terrible because of who they draft, not where. We could have a backcourt of Donovan Mitchell and Shai G-A right now. Instead, we just finished dumping Frank and Knox like two pails of garbage. I’m not sure Rose has been drafting that much better, but we should find out soon enough.

Except we lost out on those dudes despite having worse records than the teams that drafted them bc we got lower spots in the lottery with bad luck.

Yeah, building through the draft definitely takes some luck, unlike the “be consistently mediocre and hope something good somehow comes of that” strategy, which famously requires no luck.

We haven’t been constantly mediocre under Thibs and rose. We were the 4th seed last year. This year we’re struggling but we have the same record that we had last year at this time. Even if we stay a few games under 500 and only get the play in spots we’re doing way better under Leon and Thibs than we did the previous 7 seasons and we still have plenty of opportunity to improve on that. This isn’t a locked in team of only aging vets eking out 30 wins with no draft picks or young players.

E, the only geezers are Taj, and Rose’s and Kemba’s knees.

As for mercs, the only players not on the team last year are Kemba and Evan. And the rookies, of course, but I’d argue they are neither geezers nor mercs, despite only having arrived recently.

It would be hard to find a team in the NBA with fewer geezers and mercs.

It’s a tired play. You can dislike the players and/or think they don’t fit together or just stink. That’s cool, and I might even be with you. But calling them geezers and mercs is like calling them tables and chairs.

I think we’re confusing “tank to get a higher draft pick” with “trade some of the vets who don’t fit in with our win curve.”

We’re not very good, and are not trending in a positive direction, today’s win over some guys wearing Los Angeles Clippers jerseys notwithstanding. We should be looking to sell. We shouldn’t be thinking “we can’t afford to move (insert veteran here) because he’s key to our playoff push.”

If E was a warriors fan he would have been livid when they signed Iggy bc he wouldn’t have fit with Steph and klay’s “timeline.”

You don’t need a team full of 23 year olds who all have all star trajectories to build a winning team. Players don’t immediately fall off a Cliff when the hit age 30.

ess-dog:
With all due respect JK and others, this team continues to be terrible because of who they draft, not where. We could have a backcourt of Donovan Mitchell and Shai G-A right now. Instead, we just finished dumping Frank and Knox like two pails of garbage. I’m not sure Rose has been drafting that much better, but we should find out soon enough.

Knox and Frank are sunk costs. They just have to be faced rather than trying to paper over them, lest you wind up in purgatory. They’re “fighting for the play-in” with four guys 30 or over in the rotation and another guy who’s going to be 30 in October. The coach is force feeding a 30 year old guy a bunch of minutes at point guard. He virtually celebrates not playing young guys. None of this is normal or sensible. Other teams do not do these kind of things.

E, all merc’d out:
For fans of a team that missed out on Steph Curry and Ja Morant by one pick to then argue that ping pong balls and finish position don’t matter is a bit odd.

I feel like such a victim that I don’t think curry or morant would have made it here… they’d get the stench and we’d move on , they’d move on , completely altering mba landscape

swiftandabundant:
If E was a warriors fan he would have been livid when they signed Iggy bc he wouldn’t have fit with Steph and klay’s “timeline.”

You don’t need a team full of 23 year olds who all have all star trajectories to build a winning team.Players don’t immediately fall off a Cliff when the hit age 30.

I’m not looking for just a “winning team.” That’s the disconnect here. Even last year, fun as it was, does little for me, because it was obviously a fluke and unfortunately a fluke that empowered a weirdo coach. If that’s your thing, great, have at it. It’s not mine.

i think the plan is mediocrity and hope we get lucky in trades/draft/manna from heaven …and then if it happens it gets played off like it was a solid plan…

with that being said…if these fuckers get zion here…all will be good with me….

also, there may just be a configuration of this roster (with rose healthy) that could be better than 500 but not sure thibs is the guy to unravel that puzzle….but then again…he fooled me last year…

We should be looking to sell, we should be taking the ball out of Randle’s hands, we should be playing and trying to develop Quickley, Toppin, Reddish, and Grimes, we should not be force feeding a 30 year old minutes at point guard, we should not have a rotation that skews anything close to this old.

There are all number of things they should be doing that they are not doing. Today’s win didn’t move the needle forward, it moved it backward. When they win games with this minutes distribution and this philosophy, it’s bad for the organization. When and if Derrick Rose comes back — hopefully he won’t — these trends will get even worse.

Generally the flowchart goes like this:

Attempt to construct win-now roster and make a run at contention

When that fails, try to save face by 8-seeding your way into the playoffs

When that fails, draft 9th overall

Repeat this for a few years until even that level of mediocrity proves unsustainable

Accidentitank into a high lottery pick

Immediately go back into win now mode

Start the loop again

oh great, way to make a shitty day even worse, the new york knicks won a basketball game…hahahahahahahaha…lakers and clippers games are blacked out by my cable provider, so haven’t seen the game, actually forgot when we were supposed to play today…it was nice to watch the highlights and find out we won…

wow noble, i was very wrong about gane and ngannou, credit to francis, great fight IQ and stamina…add that to those cinder block hands of his, he could be a heavyweight handful for a while…

some really hard fought and competitive football games this weekend…

i think the plan is mediocrity and hope we get lucky in trades/draft/manna from heaven

But you see, rebuilding through the draft just takes too much luck!

If E was a warriors fan he would have been livid when they signed Iggy bc he wouldn’t have fit with Steph and klay’s “timeline.”

Maybe the worst caricature of win curve oriented thinking I’ve ever heard. The Warriors signed Iggy after winning 47 games, making the 2nd round of the playoffs, and giving the eventual conference champion Spurs 6 games all with a young, productive core.

It was the exact time a win curvist would say they should be looking to upgrade via free agency.

Raptors lost at home to Portland to fall back to .500, Knicks only 1/2 game back of 8th seed! If the Knicks were in the West theyd currently be the 7th seed, bottom of the West has become shockingly bad.

The Knicks are better than like three NBA teams who are trying. They just played three teams at home who are kinda, sorta in the same bucket as them — albeit the Pelis wouldn’t be there if they had Zion — and lost all three games.

I know E’s real name now — Jack Weinberg.

“Don’t trust anyone over 30.”

You New Leftie you.

Oh, and before I go, I just need to say this — Fuck Tom Brady.

Yeah, let’s tank so that we can be in better position to draft the next Killian Hayes…

E, all merc’d out: We should be looking to sell, we should be taking the ball out of Randle’s hands, we should be playing and trying to develop Quickley, Toppin, Reddish, and Grimes, we should not be force feeding a 30 year old minutes at point guard,

I don’t think it’s time to sell anyone yet, but I agree with all of the rest. Putting Burks at PG is/was a mistake. In these seasons where we KNOW we’re not going to win it all, our focus should only be on finding out what young players might help us win it all one day. If that causes a “tank” so much the better for our draft position.

All our vets should be complementary pieces only in our discovery process about the young players. Taj is a model for that: good, smart, quality character. Burks, DRose, Kemba should all focus on making the young guys better, and to some extent it appears they actually do, especially in DRose’s case. Randle I’m giving him time to figure himself out b/c he made us smile last year. E4 I think is a perfect complementary player.

The main problem IMO is Thibs. I suspect no one above him (LRose, Dolan, etc.) is forcing a “win now” mandate. Even the fans want to see what we have in the kids (Obi, Obi, Obi!). But Thibs is imposing this shit on himself (and us).

No one has called for jubilation over today’s win. It just seems odd that the same crew will rub the same tired doomsday scenarios in the face of those who just want to enjoy a win for a few minutes. At the end of the day, folks can whine all they want about what they would do and what the front office and coach should do. It doesn’t matter one iota, and the positions have already been staked out ad nauseum. What did the negativity crew say today that differed from what they said yesterday, the day before, the week before, the month before, etc.? We know that some hate that Thibs is trying to win every single game, that we didn’t sign Lonzo or FVV or whoever, that they want to dump Randle to the highest bidder, whatever. In the context of today’s game, what was said that hasn’t been said a billion times already?

If on the preseason predictions thread someone said…

“After 47 games, I think we’ll be 23-24 and in 11th place with the hardest remaining schedule in the NBA. RJ will have taken a step back, and Randle will have regressed so much there are legitimate concerns his new contract is untradable. Quickley will have had his moments, but ultimatley regressed as well. Obi will have played 650 minutes. Our BPM leader will be an injured Derrick Rose. We’ll have traded the incinerated pick for Cam Reddish without a clear plan to implement Cam Reddish into the rotation. The Bulls will be great, so any hopes of signing Zach LaVine in the offseason will be dashed, and it’s not entirely clear how we could sign a significant free agent in any event. We won’t trade away our productive veterans, instead we’ll pursue the playoffs which basketball reference give us a 9% chance to make.”

…would any of the people yelling at me now have responded “sounds good to me?”

Z-man:
No one has called for jubilation over today’s win. It just seems odd that the same crew will rub the same tired doomsday scenarios in the face of those who just want to enjoy a win for a few minutes. At the end o fthe day, folks can whine all they want about what they would do and what the front office and coach should do. It doesn’t matter one iota, and the positions have already been staked out ad nauseum. What did the negativity crew say today that differed from what they said yesterday, the day before, the week before, the month before, etc.? We know that some hate that Thibs is trying to win every single game, that we didn’t sign Lonzo or FVV or whoever, that they want to dump Randle to the highest bidder, whatever. In the context of today’s game, what was said that hasn’t been said a billion times already?

That Reddish was healthy, went coast to coast for a nice finish, and Thibodeau played him 5 minutes.

E, all merc’d out:
We should be looking to sell, we should be taking the ball out of Randle’s hands, we should be playing and trying to develop Quickley, Toppin, Reddish, and Grimes, we should not be force feeding a 30 year old minutes at point guard, we should not have a rotation that skews anything close to this old.

There are all number of things they should be doing that they are not doing.Today’s win didn’t move the needle forward, it moved it backward.When they win games with this minutes distribution and this philosophy, it’s bad for the organization.When and if Derrick Rose comes back — hopefully he won’t — these trends will get even worse.

E I’m trying to figure out what your ideal outcome would be today.

-RJ and Randle play less than 30 minutes each
– Reddish Obi and Grimes play 25 minutes each
– The Knicks lose (in front of a bunch of enthusiastic kids at a day game) but at least we’re developing the youngsters

Sounds like a great day to me!

thenoblefacehumper:
If on the preseason predictions thread someone said…

“After 47 games, I think we’ll be 23-24 and in 11th place with the hardest remaining schedule in the NBA. RJ will have taken a step back, and Randle will have regressed so much there are legitimate concerns his new contract is untradable. Quickley will have had his moments, but ultimatley regressed as well. Obi will have played 650 minutes. Our BPM leader will be an injured Derrick Rose. We’ll have traded the incinerated pick for Cam Reddish without a clear plan to implement Cam Reddish into the rotation. The Bulls will be great, so any hopes of signing Zach LaVine in the offseason will be dashed, and it’s not entirely clear how we could sign a significant free agent in any event. We won’t trade away our productive veterans, instead we’ll pursue the playoffs which basketball reference give us a 9% chance to make.”

…would any of the people yelling at me now have responded “sounds good to me?”

No. But who among the people who are yelling at you are saying “sounds good to me!”? Not a single fucking person. Who is saying “Thibs and Rose have done a great job and we’re thrilled about the direction of the team at this moment!”? Not a single fucking person.

My current take is: I would not have hired Leon Rose. I would not have hired Thibs. I would have made dozens of moves differently than this FO and this coach. In fact, we are pretty much aligned on much of this stuff.

But am I glad that we had last season? Hell yes. Am I glad that we’re not a laughingstock clown show any more? Hell yes. Am I glad that there’s at least a reasonably possible path to getting from here to being a contender? Hell yes. Am I glad that we won today? Hell yes. Am I glad Randle and RJ played better today? Hell yes.

I just don’t get the point of pissing on a decent win today with big picture whining that adds nothing new to the conversation. We already know how you and others feel about any wins in the context of the long term. No need to regurgitate it.

d-mar: E I’m trying to figure out what your ideal outcome would be today.

-RJ and Randle play less than 30 minutes each
– Reddish Obi and Grimes play 25 minutes each
– The Knicks lose (in front of a bunch of enthusiastic kids at a day game) but at least we’re developing the youngsters

Sounds like a great day to me!

Why would that result in a loss? (I’d want RJ to play more, and I’d want Quickley to play a bunch of minutes, too.)

It’s assumed that Thibs’s geezer approach makes wins more likely, and I don’t even accept that premise. His slow and boring starting lineup routinely sucks.

It is true that I don’t really care if getting the minutes more correct leads to fewer wins, but it’s not remotely clear that it even would.

The Knicks won today with a 21yo scoring 28 pts while grabbing 14 reb and dishing out 6 asts.

The whole fucking point of sports is competition and making the playoffs should be every single team’s goal.

you really think the whole point of sports is to watch a team run its best players into the ground to barely beat a team that is mailing it in?

The Knicks won today with a 21yo scoring 28 pts while grabbing 14 reb and dishing out 6 asts.-

where should we gather for the parade?

E, all merc’d out: Why would that result in a loss?(I’d want RJ to play more, and I’d want Quickley to play a bunch of minutes, too.)

It’s assumed that Thibs’s geezer approach makes wins more likely, and I don’t even accept that premise.His slow and boring starting lineup routinely sucks.

It is true that I don’t really care if getting the minutes more correct leads to fewer wins, but it’s not remotely clear that it even would.

Grimes was 2-10 and Quickley 3-8, but yeah, just give em more minutes and I’m sure they would have gotten hot and carried us to victory.

Hubert: you really think the whole point of sports is to watch a team run it’s best players into the ground to barely beat a team that is mailing it in?

The Clippers in their previous game won in Philly and are currently 9th in the West with hopes that PG and maybe even Kawhi return before the playoffs. The last thing the Clippers are doing right now is mailing it in.

Doesn’t make it a fantastic, season defining win but this was not a cheap win over a tanking team.

Hubert: you really think the whole point of sports is to watch a team run its best players into the ground to barely beat a team that is mailing it in?

“Mailing it in” is a pretty lame take. They’re close to .500 and could easily make the playoffs when PG13 comes back. I guess they forgot to “mail it in” the other night against Philly.

We’re discussing the team as it stands at this point in time. In particular, we’re discussing things such as “should this team buy or sell” and “are these marginal wins helping or hurting the team?” In my opinion those are pretty legitimate things to discuss, but apparently that’s not acceptable here.

If these arguments seem redundant it’s because this is the irritating as fuck position the Knicks have usually found themselves in over the last 20 years. The only thing that has changed is the names. The predicament is the same as ever.

I’m on Team We Suck. If y’all want to take the other end of that bet bc we barely beat the clippers, I’m happy to take all your bets.

Hubert: you really think the whole point of sports is to watch a team run its best players into the ground to barely beat a team that is mailing it in?

Who was run into the ground? Who says the Clips are mailing it in? Are you just making stuff up?

Who was run into the ground?

Julius Randle and RJ Barrett.

Who’s calling for a parade?

Big Blue Al is angry that people have the audacity to be critical of a terrible performance.

JK47:
We’re discussing the team as it stands at this point in time. In particular, we’re discussing things such as “should this team buy or sell” and “are these marginal wins helping or hurting the team?” In my opinion those are pretty legitimate things to discuss, but apparently that’s not acceptable here.

If these arguments seem redundant it’s because this is the irritating as fuck position the Knicks have usually found themselves in over the last 20 years. The only thing that has changed is the names. The predicament is the same as ever.

I get that we’re discussing these things in the larger sense. At the same time, we have zero control over these things, and everyone’s positions over the general direction of the team are pretty much clear.

No one is screaming “Randle is out savior, he will lead us to the promised land!” So whether or when we should trade Randle is different than saying “See? Even when Randle plays well and we win, it sucks because the FO won’t trade him before he inevitably becomes an albatross, so I’m going to be a wet blanket no matter how he plays or whether we win or not. We know how you feel, and Rose and Thibs don’t give a fuck. What’s the point of shitting on a nice win?

Z-man: I get that we’re discussing these things in the larger sense. At the same time, we have zero control over these things, and everyone’s positions over the general direction of the team are pretty much clear.

No one is screaming “Randle is out savior, he will lead us to the promised land!” So whether or when we should trade Randle is different than saying “See? Even when Randle plays well and we win, it sucks because the FO won’t trade him before he inevitably becomes an albatross, so I’m going to be a wet blanket no matter how he plays or whether we win or not. We know how you feel, and Rose and Thibs don’t give a fuck. What’s the point of shitting on a nice win?

Because it wasn’t a nice win. This has been explained at length by the people who hold this position.

Hubert: Julius Randle and RJ Barrett.

Big Blue Al is angry that people have the audacity to be critical of a terrible performance.

You must be a miserable person in real life, I’m beginning to feel sorry for you.

So, Leon Rose and Tom Thibodeau don’t care about what JK47 posts, so therefore I guess let’s just shut down Knickerblogger.

Sorry, my bad, I thought this was a forum to discuss Knicks basketball, I didn’t realize that we have to wave the pom poms when we win a game and Team Optimist gets to be queen for a day. Sorry y’all.

Bing bong!

There, that better?

JK47:
So, Leon Rose and Tom Thibodeau don’t care about what JK47 posts, so therefore I guess let’s just shut down Knickerblogger.

Sorry, my bad, I thought this was a forum to discuss Knicks basketball, I didn’t realize that we have to wave the pom poms when we win a game and Team Optimist gets to be queen for a day. Sorry y’all.

Bing bong!

There, that better?

Come on, JK. That’s not what’s being said. No one is saying wave pom poms or even disputing your overall pessimism about team direction or anything else. No one is trying to convince you to be more optimistic. Why the extreme overreaction?

JK47:
So, Leon Rose and Tom Thibodeau don’t care about what JK47 posts, so therefore I guess let’s just shut down Knickerblogger.

Sorry, my bad, I thought this was a forum to discuss Knicks basketball, I didn’t realize that we have to wave the pom poms when we win a game and Team Optimist gets to be queen for a day. Sorry y’all.

Bing bong!

There, that better?

I don’t mind when you vent about the Knicks cause you’re also a Raiders and Mets fan so that’s really rough.

Z-man:
This could be the greatest football weekend of all time!

Yeah that Chelsea win over Tottenham was pretty impressive (-:

d-mar: Yeah that Chelsea win over Tottenham was pretty impressive (-:

At least Pulisic got another DNP so he’ll be fully rested for the upcoming World Cup qualifiers.

Yeah, they sure looked worn out

they played 83 minutes to barely beat a team that would have played you if you were available.

Come on, man. Every time the Knicks win one game you’re here for a fight. Every time they lose three in a row you’re nowhere to be found.

Nice E impression.

Come on, JK. That’s not what’s being said.

I mean yeah it’s kind of the logical conclusion of what you said. No knickerblogger post has ever met the “will make a difference in the operation of the Knicks” standard. This is true of both complaints and optimistic posts.

Big Blue Al and Z-Man when the Knicks lose
five games in a row: “_______” for a whole week.

Big Blue Al and Z-Man when the Knicks win one game by overplaying their starters against a depleted team playing a matinee on an alternate side of the country trip:

“I’ve been busy for three weeks but I just signed on to tell you all you suck.”

Fuck.

Off.

Bitches.

I love baseball and basketball much more than football so watching these awesome games that further solidifies football’s stranglehold as the most popular sport in this country kinda bums me out.

Maybe I should clarify what my general point is, and was.

Cool win, but I hope this win, and wins like it, do not convince the front office that going balls out for the 10th seed is the best course of action, and that they should see themselves as sellers rather than buyers given the overall disappointing performance of the team this season.

I did make a comment somewhere in there about wins like this hurting our draft position, but honestly that is of a secondary concern.

We have some decent young pieces, let’s build around those and maybe even acquire some more, even if that means shipping out Thibs’ beloved mercs.

Hubert, I was pretty measured in responding to you, addressing each post for what it specifically said. You resort to sweeping generalizations. I actually posted yesterday that I’ve had a grueling week and offered some measured takes on the losses. I also believe I chimed in during the losses with some negative commentary. So I don’t get where you are suggesting that I don’t post when the Knicks are bad. Honestly, it may be the first time I have ever been criticized for not posting enough. I have no problem with criticism, but at least try to keep it real.

(ps my guess is you’ve been drinking tonight…)

JK47: Cool win, but I hope this win, and wins like it, do not convince the front office that going balls out for the 10th seed is the best course of action, and that they should see themselves as sellers rather than buyers given the overall disappointing performance of the team this season.

Well I think we can all agree that it absolutely is a foregone conclusion that the team will go balls out for the best seed that they can achieve. There’s no reason to hire Thibs in the first place if that isn’t the goal.

In fact just about everyone at KB stipulates that hiring Thibs runs contrary to any mid-season adjustments that would obviously result in fewer wins this season. As such, the realistic and fruitful arguments should be about what pre-deadline moves are possible in the context of this current regime. Clearly, trading Randle is simply not going to happen. Put another way, what odds would someone have to give you to wager, say, $500 on Randle being traded? 20-1? 50-1? 100-1? Meaning, what’s the point of discussing trade scenarios for Randle at this time when none of them have any chance of happening?

So given the near certainty that the Knicks will not throw in the towel, trade the vets and play the kids on the way to the best possible lottery spot, what moves do you think are possible that would further the goal of winning the most games possible this year without sacrificing flexibility fo next year? To me, that’s far more interesting in brooding endlessly about how we’re doomed no matter what because the FO isn’t taking the path I want them to.

I will say this…if the FO trades Burks for draft picks, that would be a sign that Rose is not in alignment with Thibs about winning now. I just don’t see any way that Rose does that. Addirionally, for better or for worse, I think Rose is convinced that having a reasonably competitive team is essential for landing top-level free agents. He’s not going to look for stars in the lottery. He’s going to use his talent as a former agent to try to lure established stars here. It may be a naive strategic plan, but that’s sure what it looks like is happening.

So we’ve got Team Optimist, which includes Swift and possibly Big Blue Al and a few others;

We have Team Realist, led by Z Man;

We have Team Pessimist, with JK47 and I believe Noble as leading members;

And we have Team

Fuck.

Off.

Bitches.

I think that’s everyone…

I don’t see BBA as an optimist per se. I think he’s more about wins and losses in the short run and rooting for the team as constructed and coached. If by optimist you mean that he sees a possible path to long-term success from where we are with who/what we have and who is running things, well, okay. I guess I’m in that camp as well. But I’m not disagreeing that there are better paths than the one we’re on. Heck, I was against hiring Thibs and for keeping Miller or someone like him. I just don’t see the point of harping on it in a game thread after a nice win.

Raven:
So we’ve got Team Optimist, which includes Swift and possibly Big Blue Al and a few others;

We have Team Realist, led by Z Man;

We have Team Pessimist, with JK47 andI believe Noble as leading members;

And we have Team

Fuck.

Off.

Bitches.

I think that’s everyone…

I’m on team Serenity Prayer with geo/bush/milo…

I just want to see a competitive damn team. I’m not championship or bust, hell I’m a Yankees fan and I take pride in the fact they make the playoffs every year and don’t harp on the fact they havent won a WS since 2009.

It’s an interesting question I’ve seen posed, would you rather be a Yankees fan since 2009 where the worst season is 83 wins and every year they are basically in the playoffs or be a Red Sox fan where they’ve won the WS in 2013 and 2018 but they’ve also finished in last place 4 times during that span. I know many would rather win a championship even if it means having to endure some last place seasons in the process but I guess I prefer my team every season being competitive and in the playoffs fighting for a championship. Its also easy for me to say that since Ive seen the Yankees win 5 championships already in my lifetime and Im sure I’ll see another few before I die.

I’ve had this argument with people here before about the 90’s Knicks, I’ll gladly take making the playoffs 14 years in a row including a stretch of winning at least 1 playoffs series for 9 years in a row with 4 trips to the Conference Finals and 2 trips to the NBA Finals despite never winning it all. But many people here have a championship or bust attitude which to me is a bit silly and basically takes the fun out of being a fan.

E, all merc’d out:
Basically a “fuck you” to the front office by Thibs re Reddish.

I don’t see this at all. Do you think Knox would have played those five minutes that Reddish did if he were here instead? I don’t. Thibs takes his time seeing what players can do, and that’s both reasonable and normal from a coach. I’m sure the front office didn’t expect anything different.

Many people here keep forgetting Rose was Thibs’ agent, they are alot closer to each other than they are given credit for.

We suck the vast majority of the time. I would take “not sucking” over “sucking” and be quite happy with that.

I don’t have a “championship or bust” mentality, I have a “hey let’s not suck for a while” mentality.

We’ve had two good seasons in the last 20 years. It’s not like I’m a spoiled fan. This is like an epic journey in the fucking desert with an occasional sip of water.

JK47:
We suck the vast majority of the time. I would take “not sucking” over “sucking” and be quite happy with that.

I don’t have a “championship or bust” mentality, I have a “hey let’s not suck for a while” mentality.

We’ve had two good seasons in the last 20 years. It’s not like I’m a spoiled fan. This is like an epic journey in the fucking desert with an occasional sip of water.

I take you at your word on this, and I feel the same way. Where we differ is on whether we are currently getting a sip of water on the way to more desert-wandering or if we are moving into a more temperate climate.

Yeah but the Knicks dont suck now. Sucking is all those 23 win teams under Isiah and the crap teams under Fisher, Horny and Fizdale. I guess that’s why me and some others get frustrated with the constant shitting on this team, not only does it not suck it has a decent amount of pretty good young players we can be hopeful about. Its not a perfect situation and the core of this team might not even be around whenever this franchise wins a playoff series again but this group is a helluva lot funner and easier to root for than almost every team we’ve had to watch in the past 20 years except for the 2011-13 Knicks. Even that team as pretty good as it was constantly got criticized on this site because many people here couldn’t get over the Melo trade.

Owen:
Well, we aren’t Bills fans

Fuck you, Owen.

And fuck Patrick Mahomes.

Who I will be rooting for during the rest of the playoffs, which makes me even more angry.

thenoblefacehumper: and all of 6 games separated the 1st seed from the 8th seed that year.

This whole thread is incredibly dumb. But I do want to point out that we’re currently 7 games out of first place. Unless 6 is some magical number, this argument isn’t what you think it is.

I think Rose is convinced that having a reasonably competitive team is essential for landing top-level free agents

I think it’s also keeping attractive contracts handy if a good trade opens up. That’s the main reason I’m fine sitting pat – people seem to take that as thinking things are great as they are, but it’s really just being realistic about what we’d get for players straight up vs how they can be used in a trade. Would Burks get us more than a late first/early second? No. Then trading him doesn’t make sense to me when his contract is far more valuable in a trade. We need salary to make almost anything interesting work.

thenoblefacehumper: Maybe the worst caricature of win curve oriented thinking I’ve ever heard. The Warriors signed Iggy after winning 47 games, making the 2nd round of the playoffs, and giving the eventual conference champion Spurs 6 games all with a young, productive core.

It was the exact time a win curvist would say they should be looking to upgrade via free agency.

So, let me get this straight. The Warriors, after their first playoff appearance in some time, with a .57 winning percentage, riding David Lee (older than Randle), Curry (older than RJ) and Klay Thompson / Draymond Green (Same age as Mitch Robinson / Obi Toppin) and a few other veterans like Jarret Jack, Carl Landry, Richard Jefferson and Bogut (same age as Burks, Bullock, Derrick Rose, and older than Noel), were in the exact time a win curvist would day the have to upgrade via FA. However, the Knicks, after their first playoff appearance in some time, with a .57 winning percentage were not. And GSW were an admittedly cherry-picked 14-13 at the end of december the next year where I guess they should have been thinking in blowing it up.

Obviously there’s a lot more than what I said, GSW did not give the next step until they solved their biggest problem, AKA Mark Jackson, which was holding the team back. The Knicks will not take the next step until they solve their biggest problem, PG play. And if the team ever considers blowing it up, they should not sell low on 27 year old Julius Randle, but sell their player with the highest differential between trade value and basketball value, which is RJ Barrett.

Luca Vildoza is about to start practicing with contact again and doesn’t sound like he’ll be done rehabbing until mid-Feb. Gives some perspective on why the Knicks ultimately cut him.

iserp: So, let me get this straight. The Warriors, after their first playoff appearance in some time, with a .57 winning percentage, riding David Lee (older than Randle), Curry (older than RJ) and Klay Thompson / Draymond Green (Same age as Mitch Robinson / Obi Toppin) and a few other veterans like Jarret Jack, Carl Landry, Richard Jefferson and Bogut (same age as Burks, Bullock, Derrick Rose, and older than Noel), were in the exact time a win curvist would day the have to upgrade via FA. However, the Knicks, after their first playoff appearance in some time, with a .57 winning percentage were not. And GSW were an admittedly cherry-picked 14-13 at the end of december the next year where I guess they should have been thinking in blowing it up.

Obviously there’s a lot more than what I said, GSW did not give the next step until they solved their biggest problem, AKA Mark Jackson, which was holding the team back. The Knicks will not take the next step until they solve their biggest problem, PG play. And if the team ever considers blowing it up, they should not sell low on 27 year old Julius Randle, but sell their player with the highest differential between trade value and basketball value, which is RJ Barrett.

Warriors built around a soon-to-be all-time great picked in the middle of the lottery who was on a modest salary. The Bucks built around a guy they drafted at #15 and a second rounder. The Raps made some clever moves with high picks but wound up with a championship roster built around one guy drafted in the teens and a bunch drafted in the 20’s or later. The Heat rebuilt after the Big 3 by acquiring guys like Bam, Herro, Duncan R, and paying Jimmy Butler the max. There’s lots of ways to go about getting sustainably good, some luck may be involved but it’s certainly possible. That wasn’t the case for the last 20 years.

Raven – sorry man. How are Billsfans feeling about kicking the ball out rather than making then field it on the kickoff after the touchdown.

And fwiw, I was trying for a double meaning there. The Bills just had a better season than the Knicks have had in my adult life. If you are going to lose that’s the way to do it, looking like the second best team in the NFL

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