Knicks Morning News (2018.12.26)

Didn’t watch any of the game thankfully but I did get to watch some Kevin Knox highlights. Box score indicates he wasn’t particularly efficient but it did seem he was getting a fair amount of time being the PNR ballhandler? His floater looks way better in that setting in the middle of the floor against a big who is dropping, and it looked like he made a couple nice reads with a pass to Kornet for 3 after Kornet popped and Knox was doubled, and also another pass to Kanter (?) for an easy finish.

He sucks on defense right now but he’s a 19 year old kid – I think he will end up being passable on that end. I’m somewhat encouraged on the offensive end.

Re: Frank – I am sort of down on Frank. I think his defense has not been as good this year, and his offense really hasn’t made any improvement at all. I don’t think box score stats are the end-all and be-all but it is really remarkable how little Frank impacts the game numbers-wise. That said, there is no long-term reason to play Trey Burke right now, unless Fizdale is trying to reward something that we don’t see as fans (ie. practice performance, etc).

by the way I wonder what kind of contract Kanter will get this offseason. Brook Lopez is not a great player either but probably is more fit for the modern game than Kanter is, and he got a 1 year deal worth 3.3MM this past offseason. I bet you a large majority of teams would rather have Kornet than Kanter.

@2 – to be fair, Frank has also been the worst out of pretty much all the players. No matter what statistical measure you use, he’s been straight awful. He’s the 2nd worst PG in the whole league by RPM (only Collin Sexton is worse), and even 88th out of 99 PGs in DRPM.

That ‘s why I really think he needs to go to the G-league. I don’t understand why Fizdale won’t let him get serious run in Westchester, if for no other reason than to just get him more evaluable minutes.

Right now, Frank’s looks lost. Oftentimes when that’s the case, it helps to get benched or sidelined in order to settle down. In those circumstances, continuing to get playing time in a lost state can actually make things worse as the player could then potentially develop self-defeating patterns. Meanwhile, that time away gives the player a chance to approach things from a better perspective. It’s pretty zen of Fiz to incorporate DNPs as part of his player development system Based on my own experiences as an educator, coach, and manager, I believe Fiz is spot on in giving Frank that downtime.

Porzingis, the only decent Knicks player, is out most of the year. Might as well tank. The Knicks knew this coming into the year and drafted Knox, knowing he wouldn’t contribute right away.

I say it’s excusable to tank when your high lotto pick is out all year and Zion is available. Next year there needs to be some improvement.

Given that it is inarguable that the current iteration of Frank is awful, it is vexing why the team would not send him to the G-League to try to rehab his defensive chops, rebuild his lost confidence, and work on the rebounding, dribbling, and shooting skills to he will need to be a rotation player. While sitting on the bench may be restorative, in the absence of run, the dude isn’t going to improve.

And the other thing that makes me so irate is what it says about our philosophy that we have such disdain for a player who is intelligent, unselfish, plays well on the defensive end, and focuses more on making his teammates better than getting his own shot. I get that he’s terrible but so many players on this team are terrible and they keep getting rewarded because they’re aggressive.

Since when did aggression become more important to a basketball team than intelligence? How many stupid plays did you see from Mudiay yesterday? He had the ball stripped from him on two of his jump shots. Literally just had the ball taken completely out of his hands like he was a 12 year old playing against his dad. How often does another team exploit Enes Kanter’s lack of intelligence on defense? You can run the same play on him 8 times in a row and he won’t figure out how to make an adjustment.

So just forget about Frank. Let him rot. It’s the thought process that irks me because that’s what we’re going to be left with. Were SGA and Mikal Bridges clearly and obviously better prospects than Kevin Knox? Of course they were. But Knox was aggressive! In a fucking 3-on-3, no less!

Intelligent basketball will beat aggressive basketball every day of the week. And if you don’t believe that, look at our record. It’s become obvious that our brain trust values the wrong trait. So every instance of them favoring aggression over intelligence is a damning indictment of their ability to build something here. It just so happens that their disparate treatment of Mudiay and Frank is, to me, the most visible example of their broken thought process.

Lowry: took him until age 25 (3 teams, 9300 minutes) until his WS was finally over .126 in any sustained way.
Wall: Still inefficient today, but whatever, came in at 19, and took 3 seasons to break WS .100 or TS 500.

These are all universally-regarded starting level point guards. I didn’t go into guys like Beverley, although I should have, because he isn’t a starter. They were all the same, or somewhat better than Frank in shooting from day one. They all got much better with age, usually after 22 or so. Same with Mudiay/Burke, too by the way. And Frank is a much better defender than any of them were at his age! And they all got at least 5000 minutes (and up to 9000 minutes in a few cases) before they were good! So, give Frank minutes or your prediction that he will suck, becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy; I don’t care if it’s g-league, trash minutes, or round riverside.

Were SGA and Mikal Bridges clearly and obviously better prospects than Kevin Knox? Of course they were. But Knox was aggressive! In a fucking 3-on-3, no less!

I actually think Knox is going to be pretty good.
Before we get too far down the road of painting the FO with permanent marker based on this draft class, in Knox we are literally talking about the 2nd youngest player in the NBA.

re: aggression – I sort of agree with you on principle, but I do sorta think aggressiveness matters when you are the primary ballhandler. Frank’s path to being a good NBA player is to be an average offensive player and a great defensive player. Right now the offense stagnates when he is the primary ballhandler, and if he’s not a primary ballhandler then he’s even more of a liability because he can’t shoot or even attack a closeout if someone actually makes an effort to stop him from shooting. So he’s a 3-and-D guy that can’t shoot, and whose defense has underwhelmed so far this year.

I still have hope for him, and am not sure whether getting his minutes yanked around is responsible for his obvious lack of confidence — I really think the g-league is the place for him to rebuild.

How can anyone laud Frank’s intelligence based on his play this year? I’ve seen a plethora of bonehead passes from Frank this year and his reputation as a great defensive player has taken a hit as well. He was even abused by the ghost of Tony Parker!!!
We all talk about how awful Mudiay is but he has clearly outplayed Frank. Coming into this season, it assumed that Frank would beat out his competition at the position and yet, his awful play resulted in the coach even trying a shooting guard (Trier) at the position. Frank has REALLY been awful. Yes, he may turn it around but there has been very little evidence this year of anything resembling the making of an NBA pg.
I don’t know when or where we are going to get a quality pg but I don’t see that player on the current roster.

As for Knox, I’m encouraged by what I’ve seen of him and have little doubt that he will be good one day.

Tried to delete my rant.
My point is, Frank was very young, and needed a patient front office, coach, and fanbase to give him playing time to develop. The facts that a young point guard needs time to develop, and that Frank is very young, are really not up for discussion. Most non-elite PGs were bad their first 5,000 minutes, at least. He will fail unless he gets playing time. That is all.

…and as you go on, please tell me about the point guard in the last decade or two that has gone on to tear the league up after we ditched or traded him.

Tell me about the last point guard we drafted first.

I’m not gonna lie. As the leader of team optimist, yesterday was rough. The little tidbit about Frank’s mom flying in from France and not getting to see his son play on Christmas…that hurt a lot. Doubly so bc they are from the town that had that terrorist attack. Maybe Fiz didn’t realize it but even so, as a player’s coach he should know these things.

I don’t mind Frank coming off the bench. I don’t mind him not playing point guard. I don’t even mind him getting the occasional DNP in order to motivate him. But I now officially have my doubts about Fiz.

If anything the Mudiay renaissance should be exhibit A on why the Knicks should be patient with Frank and I don’t really see why it has to be between him and Frank. In theory a Mudiay/Frank backcourt could complement each other very well. Mudiay is a PG but he doesn’t rack up the assists. Frank doesn’t score but is a good and willing passer and good on defense. They are both young. If they are hell bent on keeping and developing Mudiay, something I am not opposed to them doing, then they should be looking to build chemistry between these two young guards.

There’s a lot of young and flawed players on this roster. So I don’t blame Fiz for rotating who gets minutes each game. And maybe he’s trying to up the value of someone like Burke. But when Hardaway and Burke are absolutely stinking it up yesterday, why not give Frank some burn? And if he knew Frank’s mom was there and still didn’t play him, even in the 4th quarter when they were down by like 20 points…then that really worries me about Fiz going forward.

And for the love of God, just send him down to the G-League. Hardaway went there with the Hawks. Burke went there to revive his career. It isn’t a black mark anymore for a young player to go down there for a bit to work on their confidence and game.

If we trade him as a throw in to get rid of Lee or whatever I’m gonna be pissed.

If you’re tired of the Frank-Mudiay conversation, feel free to substitute Dotson for Frank and Hardaway for Mudiay. It’s the same bullshit. Coach loves the aggressive chucker who is a sieve on defense over a smarter, more efficient player who can hold his own on defense.

Dotson is no great shakes, either. None of these guys are. But who he plays is indicative of what he values, and we clearly value recreating the 2005 era knicks.

OK I can’t resist. Sure, let’s judge the current Knicks leadership by how poorly they are handling Frank’s development. Despite the recent DNP-CDs, Frank is 6th on the team in minutes and we’re nearly halfway into the season. And what is he doing this year better than he did last year? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. But yeah, that’s due to coaching playing a stupid brand of basketball or management prioritizing dumb players over smart ones. Right. All those incredibly dumb plays I see Frank making every time he’s out there must be a mirage.

And sure, management would never be patient with a PG who was going through growing pains on his way to an all-star level career, like Kemba Walker or Russell Westbrook. This could be the dumbest statement made on KB in Ntilikina’s defense this year, and that’s a fucking Mt. Everest-sized mountain of bullshit to climb.

I don’t think Mudiay is the answer to our issues at PG, but I have no problem with giving him a long look and withholding final judgment until the end of the year and deciding whether to offer the QO or not. If anyone fits in with the specious Kemba narrative posted above, it’s him. He actually plays like he fits the PG position and might get better at it over the years. Frank, on the other hand, should be sent to the G-League until he’s posting 20-5+-5+ down there on a regular basis.

Speaking of Vonleh it’s getting harder and harder to say he’s not better than Draymond Green

OK I can’t resist

You should, though. Although I have to admit, calling your own post nonsensical in @14 was a nice touch.

Just read everything I wrote and substitute the coach’s preference for Hardaway over Dotson instead of his obsession with Emmanuel Mudiay, or the front office’s choice of Knox over SGA. Because Frank is not the only example of Fix/Perry/Mills’ obsession with a specific type of basketball player over another type. He’s just the one that’s currently front and center.

It’s also ridiculous to think that any coach or GM would play Hardaway Jr. or Kanter less than Fiz has been playing them this year, especially the former. TH2 is under contract and virtually untradeable w/o major sweetener. It would be idiotic to play him less than starter’s minutes. Trier and Dotson have played 26 and 23 mpg respectively. Both have played way more mpg than Thomas or Lee, not to mention Burke or Hezonja. Kanter and Vonleh have played the same amount of minutes, and Mitch would be getting major minutes if he wasn’t always either hurt or in foul trouble.

And we’re right on schedule with the tank. It’s not like TH2 or Kanter are bringing us wins. Th2 is definitely pat of the plan going forward and this is the first time he’s been in a prime-time role; nothing wrong with giving him reps so that maybe he can settle in as a 3rd or 4th option, or even a 6th man role, as other pieces develop or are acquired. As to Kanter, the longer he keeps on putting up 20 and 15 per 36 in 28 mpg, the better the chances of moving him before the deadline. This notion that they are being “prioritized” over younger players is just ludicrous.

I don’t feel one way or the other about Knox over SGA. Who the fuck knows who will turn out to be the better player? Right now, my guess is that they have about equal asset value, deserved or not, and equally high ceilings. It’s incredibly far-fetched to make generalizations about the organization’s priorities re; valuing of intelligence based on the pick. But it suits your narrative, so have at it!

Z-Man, you’re stuck in your own argument. We all agree that Frank is playing horribly, the questions is what to do. My reasoning is, he is of the age and position that increased playing time is of the most benefit, but yes, he may not improve. Your reasoning, which you formulated this past summer and cemented with each day of arguing, seems to be that he is irredeemable.

It’s also ridiculous to think that any coach or GM would play Hardaway Jr. or Kanter less than Fiz has been playing them this year

Is it? They are both having terrible seasons and there are younger alternatives who should be playing more than them.

Vonleh in the starting lineup and Trier as the 6th man are the two unquestionable positions on this team. Knox is now, too, after a brief bout with insanity that saw Lance Thomas and Mario Hezonja favored.

Based on where this team is in the win curve, contract status, skill set, and common sense, my “stupid agenda” is that Frank-Dotson-Mitchell is the optimal trio to support those three and that Mudiay, Hardaway, and Kanter, should be traded, sent to the dungeon for his terrible play, and released, respectively. And the fact that Fiz/Mills/Perry can’t see this is very troubling to me.

I don’t need to poll the intelligent posters. No one here with a brain thinks that Mudiay-Hardaway-Kanter should be blowing the minutes of Frank-Dotson-Mitchell away. The only point of contention is if you’re currently troubled by it. I am more troubled than most because see it as a signal for their thought process.

Speaking of Vonleh it’s getting harder and harder to say he’s not better than Draymond Green

Yeah but that’s Dray’s fault.

So, give Frank minutes or your prediction that he will suck, becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy

He will fail unless he gets playing time. That is all.

He needs playing time, or he will fail.

@Wetbandit, you haven’t proven this point at all though. You showed a bunch of previous point guards who sucked for several thousand minutes. Eventually they became good. You then leapt to the conclusion they became good BECAUSE OF the gobs of minutes. Not necessarily true!

There’s not really strong research showing PT is the most important determinant of development. For basketball in particular many skills are probably better learned outside of games. Shooting for example, no one learns how to shoot in games. You can find plenty of prospects who became good and got lots of PT, but that’s because the promising prospects look so promising coaches want to keep playing them. Russell Westbrook vs Frank for example is like night and day in terms of their athletic ability, even if Westbrook didn’t shoot well right away.

Frank needs >0 minutes surely, but he’s also been getting plenty. As someone else said he’s sixth on the team in minutes.

@abk: my only argument is that most successful point guards take a few years to figure it out, and he will not get better if he doesn’t play, that’s all.

The arguments that Frank and Dotson are getting minutes: look at the significant trend in the opposite direction.

Z-Man, we agree more than we disagree, but I have the feeling I am more optimistic about Frank’s chances at PG.

Where do certain posters get the idea that a young player who is given ample playing time (for a rookie) and sucks all the way, might benefit from getting even more time?

Doesn’t it seem far more logical to assume he is young and not ready for the NBA, so sending him to the G-league is a better plan?

I don’t object to Fiz not playing Frank. I do think keeping him glued to the bench instead off getting time in the g-league is useless and potentially damaging (if he has any talent at all).

Here’s a happy thought. At least they didn’t hire Mark Jackson! Can you imagine Jackson coaching these guys? Holy shit, it would be painful.

Yeah not playing Dotson too is another confusing trend. He’s literally done everything right and suddenly he’s not getting minutes.

I will say that its a tough thing for Fiz bc we have a glut of guards and none of them are great. Haradaway is going to get serious minutes and if he was on any other team with his contract, they would be doing the same.

Also, banishing Kanter would be the dumbest thing ever. He has done nothing to deserve that and doing that would be a horrible PR move by The Knicks. Noah was banished bc he was partying and taking PED’s. This is factual as its been reported and he himself even admitted this much. Comparing Kanter to him is ludicrous.

While I don’t have as violent a feeling about Fizdale as Hubert does, his general point is right:

This is a developmental year leading into a pivotal summer during which we will have to make a LOT of decisions that will determine the course of the franchise over the next 3-4 years.

The only players who are sure to be here next year are KP, Knox, Robinson, Trier, and probably THJ.
Unless they are willing to come back on minimum contracts, there is a roughly 0% chance that Lance Thomas, Trey Burke, Enes Kanter, and Mario Hezonja will be back next season. These guys should get very few minutes because a) they stink, and b) they are not even part of a medium-term plan much less a long-term plan. They have no trade value whatsoever (although I wonder whether Lance and his small 2019-20 guarantee and his “leadership” skills might make a team take him on as part of another deal), and so playing them only takes minutes away from players that we need to evaluate for that medium-long term.

Those players that need evaluation = Dotson, Frank, Mudiay, Kornet, Vonleh. If you ask me, Dotson is the best guard we have on the roster, and Vonleh has played himself into strong consideration to be brought back next year. Mudiay presumably only has a chance of coming back on a contract less than the taxpayer MLE. Dotson and Frank could theoretically be moved to save/make cap space. These are the guys that should be getting a ton of minutes over Lance, Lee, Hezonja, Burke, and Kanter.

The rotation should be Frank – Trier – Knox – Vonleh – Mitch, with Mudiay, Dotson, Timmy, Kornet, and some Kanter off the bench. I don’t want to see Burke, Lance, or Hezonja. I don’t care if Frank sucks, we’re tanking. Defense would be amazing, offense would grind to a halt, until Fizdale figures out how to get these guys to run an actual play.

Our yearly “let’s play X so we can showcase him for a trade” never works. Obviously, there’s a middle ground, too.

Doesn’t it seem far more logical to assume he is young and not ready for the NBA, so sending him to the G-league is a better plan?

There’s probably a good reason they don’t send Frank to the G-League: he’d be outplayed by Trevon Bluiett, Kadeem Allen, and Isiah Hicks.

Also, tt’s silly to use Kemba, Conley, Lowry, and Wall in any argument about slow developing PGs that pertain to Frank. None of them were any where close to as bad as Frank after 2400 minute in the league.

The people Frank needs to be looked at next to are the people that were truly, truly horrible their rookie year. These are Franks peeps. There have been 144 rookies that have played 500+ minutes to a negative ws/48. Of those 144, a few proved themselves to be good players. Guys like Will Barton, Gary Harris, Shawn Bradley. Two even went on to became all stars (Mookie Blaylock and Allan Houston). So there’s reason to not give up on these guys.

Unfortunately for Frank, though, all of the players than lasted in the league improved a lot during their second season. Not improving over the summer is really the death knell of player development. And it puts Frank on a list with Michael Olowokandi, Kenny Satterfield, Lancaster Gordon, Johnny Flynn, Del Beshore, and a few other players that started with a negative ws/48 and went down from there.

If it takes packaging Frank to unload a bad contract, that may actually be pretty good return for him. It’s probably better to lose him than a future 2nd round pick.

If the Knicks do stick with him, though, and the fans are desperate to cling to a glimmer of hope with him, I guess that there is the case of Lindsey Hunter, who was terrible his rookie year, barely improved his second year, and still managed to stick in the league for a prolonged career. I can’t really think of anybody else. Can you?

ess-dog – I think you are right ultimately. Frank is under contract for 2 more seasons, so in some ways there isn’t a rush (yet) to make a decision about him. There is time to develop him.

I just got really sad for him when I read about his mom coming all the way from France for Christmas to watch him play and didn’t even get to see him on the court. And its perplexing when we’re getting beat badly in the 4th quarter to not put him in for the garbage minutes. Or to put him in when the game is getting out of hand. He might suck on offense but he is a good defender. Sometimes just putting a different player in like that can stem the tide. It doesn’t feel like Fiz ever does that. He just calls the time out and sticks with the same players that are getting their asses kicked.

Look I was a few too many Christmas scotches deep when I went off about his mother last night. I get that. I’m not as violent about this opinion when I’m sober. I do believe the egregious missteps we’ve taken with Frank’s development are related to his terrible performance but that’s not a hill I’m prepared to die on.

Of much, MUCH greater concern to me is that yesterday gave me PTSD. Everyone lined up perfectly with the 2005 knicks:

Vonleh = Kurt Thomas
Kanter = an Eddy Curry who can rebound but is somehow worse on defense
Knox = Tim Thomas
Mudiay = a terribly poor man’s Marbury
T Hardaway = A Hardaway
Trier = Crawford

I’m sorry, but as long as I’ve been watching basketball I’ve rarely seen teams be stupid enough to even table the idea of running out lineups full of players like that. And both teams involved our current PoBO at a high level. “But Frank sucks” does not even begin to counter the idea that there’s a good chance we’re back to the terrible team-building philosophy of “just get a bunch of scorers.”

Mudiay and Burke do absolutely nothing well and chances are they never will. Both may be much better scorers than Frank (because he’s been an atrocious scorer), but neither of them is actually a plus on offense.

I agree with the larger point you’re making, but for what it’s worth Mudiay has definitely been a net plus offensively. That absolutely speaks to the standards of this specific team, is not likely to last, and does nothing to mitigate the contract situation(s). But that’s the logic behind playing Mudiay–he is better than Ntilikina at this point in time. As I’ve made clear, I do not agree with it.

@65

I’d say he’s been a net plus on this team, but only because our players are mostly so bad that just being OK is good enough to make a positive contribution. But I don’t think he’s a net plus player on offense.

I don’t understand how anybody can fault David Fizdale for not playing Ntilikina enough when he was a starter in two different starting line ups. We started the season with Burke, Hardaway Jr, Ntilikina, Thomas, and Kanter as the starting five I believe. Then we moved to Ntilikina, Dotson, Hardaway Jr, Vonleh, and Mitchell Robinson until Mitch Rob couldn’t stay out of foul trouble and Kanter couldn’t quit complaining about how hard life was as a reserve (something I’ll always hold against him). Ntilikina fell out of the starting line up and then out of the rotation because of his lack of aggression, and whether you realize it or not, that’s a valid reason.

Not having aggression on the basketball court is like being a quiet singer in a chorus. When you just float on by, there’s no way to know what you need to improve on because the choir director can’t hear you. Mudiay’s aggression showed Fizdale he needs to work on finishing at the hoop, he needs to work on using his size better, and he needed to work on defense. He gave his coach a lot to work with, made improvements, and earned his trust. Frank has a few things to work on defensively, but on offense he just doesn’t get up enough FGA or involve himself enough that there’s anything to say besides “he needs to work on everything.” Frank needs to be calling for P&Rs every single time he touches the ball. At one point this season, every time Knox touched the ball in a game the possession ended with a Knox FGA. That’s where Frank should be more or less. If you’re going to stink, smell up the joint until you get separate attention. Don’t just be a mild fart, and that’s been Frank. A mild fart of offense.

don’t forget everyone to vote your favorite knick players in to the all star game: https://vote.nba.com/#/

we have a bunch of well deserving guys on our roster…hopefully we can see at least 2 or 3 of our starters make the team…

@72
I’d like to see that lineup get a nice long look, but that’s not likely to happen until February, if at all.

Trier and Kornet off the bench…

Nice quotes via Ian Begley from Kevin Knox about how the game has slowed down for him. I pretty much agree with everything he said. Watching him play now vs. the first month of the season is like night and day — so out of control, throwing up ugly floaters from everywhere and every angle.

“I think the game’s just slowing down for me. You can see I’m a little bit more patient now coming off pick and rolls…. “I’m starting to figure out where my spots are, where the right reads are.”

“(I was going) 100 miles per hour (earlier in the season). I was just going, just zooming everywhere on the court. Just going to the basket, throwing up shots. In transition, taking off from the free-throw line. It was crazy.”

If you watch these highlights from yesterday you can see how much more under control he looks coming around picks, in transition, and especially with taking his floater in the lane — specifically the possessions starting at 1:15, 1:45, 1:55, 2:20, and 2:42 in this video. He’s not in a hurry, surveys the defense, takes the floater when the big drops. Gets doubled, passes out to Kornet for the 3 or dump over the top to Kanter. Earlier in the year he was just throwing up crap.

I know how to adjust for point guard growing pains. It’s not hard to do. Of course it takes a while for guards to develop. But Frank’s growth rate from season one to season two is nonexistent. He’s worse this year. And worse than that, he doesn’t seem to possess the basic building blocks of point guard play. He can’t dribble! He has a below-average handle for a D1 point guard. I don’t see how that can even be denied. He looks horrible with the ball in his hand.

Tyus Battle is the point guard for the Syracuse Orange. He’s an okay, not great D1 point guard. He has a WAY better handle and WAY better PG skills than Frank. Watch them side by side and tell me that Frank is the better PG prospect. You will be wrong.

Frank is not a point guard, full stop. He cannot make the basic pickup game type play of breaking down a defender. And as an added bonus, his secondary skills— other than defending the pick and roll— are nonexistent too.

I don’t know how you play him as a 3 and D wing either, since his timidity also extends to his pitiful rebounding. I don’t know what you do with a 6’5” guard who can’t really shoot, doesn’t rebound and has zero handle, that is a very fringe skill set. I mean, whatever, give him minutes, sure. It’s not gonna matter in my opinion. You can’t even say his intangibles are good— he has a deer in the headlights look in his eyes at all times and in my opinion he doesn’t even compete hard, which is why you see the dump off passes to whoever is standing nearest to him and the inability to mix it up on the boards.

Okay maybe the Tyus Battle comp was harsh.

Players with Frank’s mindset are a dime a dozen in Euro basketball. That’s why pretty much every great Euro team employs at least three USA imports: because they have a somewhat ingrained tendency to hunt for shots and an augmented ability to create them.

Frank would be an amazing Euro player. In the NBA, maybe he’ll just be a bust because of his passiveness.

Maybe it simply is a matter of them prioritizing Mudiay and Burke because they have to make decisions on him and Trier bc he’s exceeded expectations but basketball is about balance. Frank may suck on offense but he doesn’t suck on defense and when you have a team full of offense only players, wouldn’t you want to balance that some with a defense first player even if that player struggles offensively?

don’t really have an offensive system in place beside “eat what you kill”

That’s a pretty awesome description of their offense right now.

JK47’s post @77 summarizes the the second view I was referring to and honestly makes a very convincing case in its favor.

Whenever I find myself advocating for Frank in any capacity (i.e. simply saying he should play more than Trey freakin’ Burke), the handle truly haunts me. If you thought the Tyus Battle comp was harsh then brace yourself for what I’m about to say: I’m in my second year of coaching basketball at the middle school where I teach, and maybe I’m an idiot who has no idea how to evaluate this, but I truly believe I have coached guards whose handles would grade more positively than Frank’s via any objective measure.

Needless to say I think there’s zero chance he’ll ever become a point guard in any meaningful sense. Maybe if he becomes much better at many different things you can pencil him in there if you have, like, Ben Simmons.

I guess what I’d like to see is him getting minutes with the idea of developing the skills he’ll need to have any shot of being a rotation player: 3PT shooting, defense, and maybe above average playmaking for a non-point guard. We have nothing better to do right now, but don’t let his presence get in the way of drafting and/or signing anyone else.

Brian, I believe Fiz said that phrase in preseason in regards to how he wanted the young players to view things.

I suspect him of being our best screen setter. Also he draws offensive fouls pretty well, that’s an improvement over last year.

This is like complimenting someone by saying they have nice elbows and knees.

Brian, I believe Fiz said that phrase in preseason in regards to how he wanted the young players to view things.

For serious? Ooph.

No one is insane enough to argue that Frank has been anything but terrible so far, but that’s not highly unusual for teenage draft picks in their first two seasons. He shouldn’t be treated any differently than other players in the same situation, and most of those players get at least some kind of chance to prove themselves.

This is reasonable, and I might add that the front office needs to make the following determination about Frank, because it’s the only reasonable way to approach the situation:

It’s highly likely that he has no trade value around the league aside from salary-matching. Zero trade value outside of the spreadsheet. Therefore, you either play him to try to develop him as a player OR you play him to increase his trade value. There is no value whatsoever to him being on the roster when there are many undrafted young players who could be given major prove-it minutes during this placeholder year with a very-bad team.

Provided that no other franchise is dumb enough to take on his contract, either cut him for the roster slot, or play him for the lotto balls and development. The fact that they’re putting him in the only situation in which no one benefits? Deeply concerning, whether you believe he’s got potential or not.

I’m not going to celebrate being onto Frank (and neither DSjr not Donovan have been all that good either, so there’s that) but if you go back and look, you’ll see what was painfully obvious to me when I watched literally hours of his game film from Strasbourg. The lousy ball handling. The utter lack of explosion or quick-twitch athleticism. The mediocre shooting from everywhere on the court. The tendency to float aimlessly. There was film where he couldn’t advance the ball vs. freakin’ Ognjen Jaramaz.

And as I said then, there are two things that players almost never significantly improve on, no matter how hard they work at it: explosiveness and PG-level ball-handling. Just beneath that is rebounding. If you are waiting around for him to get better at those things, wake me up in 5 years.

I’ll do it for you:

http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-draft-frank-ntilikina-8-and-damyean-dotson-44/#comment-585410

I will go on the record now to say that based on what I see and know right now, I absolutely hate this pick, and that we will be ruing this day for a long time. It will be worse in a way than when we just missed Westbrook and Curry, because I think that Dennis Smith Jr. is going to be an uber-exciting perennial all star and Ntilikina is going to top out at 3 and D bench player on a mid-level deal. I wouldn’t be surprised if at least 10 players picked after him have better NBA careers than him.

Still not up on DSJ, but Frank is objectively terrible at basketball. And I agree, you can’t teach someone to handle the ball in the NBA. Everyone salivating about his youth were part of that contingent that thinks that their special pet basketball prospect will be the unicorn who will learn a fundamental basketball skill years after the rest do. You might as well try to teach Marc Gasol to be a point guard. Ain’t gonna happen.

Frank aside, you really have to use age instead of rookie status to get any meaningful data here. Comparing a 19 year old rookie to a 22 year old rookie is bad methodology because improvement tends to happen by age, not years in the league.

I get that age is a factor and that teenagers represent a smaller sample and all. But my point is that, at any age, players that start bad and get worse in their second season simply don’t stay in the league very long. Teams that identify that and don’t waste time and resources trying to make an exception to that rule are actually doing themselves and their fans a service.

Frank’s company of teenagers that stink in the NBA is small. Nobody is faulting him for being terrible last year as a teenager. But he’s not a teenager anymore, and he’s statistically worse now than he was as a teenager last year. The company he is keeping isn’t the Zach LaVine, D’Arron Fox, Gary Harris, Brandon Ingram, Dennis Schroder crowd of players that were raw and horrible when they started but showed significant improvement in their second year. His company is the Tony Wroten, Dragan Bender, Mario Hezonja, DeJuan Wagner, Anthony Bennett crowd. It’s not a group you want to be associated with.

It’s pretty easy to find young players that start bad and improve.

But it’s incredibly difficult to find young players that start bad and actually get worse. Even Mudiay, for as bad as he was his sophomore year, still managed a little improvement.

Maybe Frank’s defense is so much better than everybody else that his offense doesn’t matter. But unless the league devolves a lot in the next few years, I can’t see how any amount of defense makes up for being one of the worst offensive players ever to play 2300+ minutes in the league.

This is like complimenting someone by saying they have nice elbows and knees.

Joints are pretty dang important. Don’t judge my fetishes.

I look at his game and it seems obvious Frank’s handle has improved significantly over last year. I’ve watched him run the pnr with Kanter and Robinson well. I’ve watched this offense that likes a handoff to start the half-court, secondary pnps at the elbow that give us contested threes, as little offball movement as possible, and loves loves loves iso drives. I’m seeing a guy who is not a breakdown the offense via penetration PG (if he’s a PG at all) being graded on exactly that skill which afaict he’d never even attempted before. He’s being set up to fail and that is going to have some negative impacts on the rest of his game. But I also think “eat what you kill” is a less than ideal philosophy for a basketball offense so what the hell do I know.

Making a basket does make it easier for the defense, though. The players have more time to run down court and get set on defense, find their man, you can guard the player inbounding the ball and hound teh PG as they bring it up court. Miss a shot and the other team gets the rebound and they can oftentimes get the ball up the court faster while the defense is still getting set.

Yes, and that’s what’s making me lose my mind.

The Knicks are cognizant of the fact that Mudiay was raw, his development was mishandled, and that he needed nurturing to improve. And they gave him all that. While doing everything that was done to Mudiay in Denver to Frank in NY.

Given their respective ages, contract status, and the fact Mudiay cost what turned out to a very costly 2nd round pick, it makes no sense to wreck one and reclaim the other. Whether or not Frank currently sucks is not particularly relevant to whether or not this was a good idea.

Teams average 110 pts/g now, how important really is defense when even the best defensive teams allow over 103 pts/per 100 possessions?? You need to be able to score points, granted it has to be efficiently not like the way TH Jr scores points but still you can’t be as bad offensively as Frank especially as a wing player.

All I wanted for Christmas was a 100 post thread on Frankie Smokes. Day late but you guys really came through!

I will continue to irrationally hope he pulls it together but the chances aren’t good (obviously). Re Kyle Lowry, he was great in college and really good as a rookie and I never understood why he didn’t play more. Frank is not remotely in that category.

Tony Allen has RINGZ, Harden does not.

It feels like maybe defense is not being measured in the same light as offense. Like we still grade defense on whether or not the team gives up more than 100 points but if the league is playing faster, scoring more and shooting more 3s overall, the of course scoring will go up but that doesn’t mean defense isn’t important. It just means good defense is only giving up less than 110 points/game as opposed to less than 100 points a game that qualified as good defense 10 or 15 years ago.

I just listened to an interview with Jonathan Wasserman about the draft, the Knicks, and especially about Frank and Knox.

The link can be found here:
Jonathan Macri
@JCMacriNBA

The cliff notes are that he’s still high on Knox and Frank, but thinks Frank may be better off on another team. If I understood him correctly, he see’s Frank as more of a 3 and D guy that can also make plays (which is what a lot of us have been saying all along), but not as a PG with as a quick first step that can penetrate and attack. He doesn’t think he’s a good fit on the Knicks given the direction we are heading and thinks he would probably develop better and be better off somewhere else.

He loves Zion, but after that he likes Ja Morant (Murray State) for the Knicks.

Like we still grade defense on whether or not the team gives up more than 100 points

We don’t do that, like, at all.

I don’t mean you, jowles. We all know you are the smartest basketball mind in the world and would never ever make a mistake when it comes to analyzing basketball. My apologies if your amazing basketball mind was insulted by my comment.

I just mean the general idea that defense “isn’t important” bc the league has changed the rules to pump up offense and teams are playing faster, shooting more 3s and therefore scoring more points. A lot of people (not you…please don’t be insulted, oh great one) make the claim that defense doesn’t matter as much. It still matters, its just that what constitutes “good defense” has changed.

Barrett is Harrison Barnes reincarnate

“Barrett is Harrison Barnes reincarnate”

I haven't watched much, but I'm not a fan based on the stats.

These days my optimism for June rises and falls like a 20-foot Devin Booker baseline fadeaway. Phoenix needs to win some damn games.

At least we’re not Bulls fans.

Oh for FUCK’S sake…

Yeah, but nothing like winning the OT period 4-2 to seal the deal!

kemba to mikal: hold my beer kid

I wanna ‘yes, and’ that. Offense has more value than defense, and nobody has figured out a really effective defense against the current mode. The closest is the Warriors, probably part skill and probably part intra-team scrimmage. It feels like 70-30, maybe 60-40 offense. But if you can put together a squad and scheme that can cut that advantage by 5-8%, that could be a big difference maker and I suspect the answer lies partly with extremely switchy defenders like Frank who work hard on screens drawing enough offensive fouls to make up for the beats. That player also needs to be a non-zero on offense too obviously, which Frank is not. But absent the best collective talent the league has seen you have to work both sides.

@Farfa I don’t understand your comment #81. If Frank’s mindset is a dime-a-dozen in Euroball, doesn’t that imply he’d be value-less there? I’d think his mindset would be more valuable in the NBA, since it’s rarer.

Ah, yes, it wasn’t clear. What I meant was that he would blend much better there and his size would be a huge plus, while his weak athleticism and passive mentality would not be such a problem, thanks to a different approach from coaches and front offices alike. Usually, hopeless chuckers get benched very quickly this side of the pond.

The 2015 Warriors had the #1 defense in the league, not the #1 offense. Was it because Steve Kerr came in and turned Mark Jackson’s players into defensive stalwarts? Or was it because he unleashed a blistering offensive system that tired opponents out and led them to in turn shoot a low eFG%? My guess is the latter.

They went from the number 4 defense under Jackson while handing a bunch of shitty David Lee minutes to Draymond. There’s no mystery to solve. The same Warriors has an even better offense in 16-17 and the defense fell to 5th when Bogut became Pachulia, below 13-14 both relatively and absolutely. The better explanation is that the Warriors were a good defensive team, which studs like Iggy, Bogut and Draymond and not many jokers.