(Saturday, March 03, 2018 12:52:21 AM)
Lou Williams scored 21 points off the bench and DeAndre Jordan had a 19-point, 20-rebound double-double as the Clippers blew out the Knicks at Staples Center on Friday night.
(Friday, March 02, 2018 11:50:14 PM)
Knicks C Kyle O’Quinn is having a career year in his third year in New York. Too bad he may be playing his way out.
(Friday, March 02, 2018 9:30:59 PM)
LOS ANGELES — As the New York Knicks take their struggles to Hollywood on Friday night, the Los Angeles Clippers are only happy to play host.
(Friday, March 02, 2018 8:34:41 AM)
Just like Kristaps Porzingis and Enes Kanter before him, Knicks center Kyle O’Quinn told reporters he wants to remain in New York for the rest of his career.
(Friday, March 02, 2018 11:41:49 PM)
LOS ANGELES — Jeff Hornacek said Knicks point guard Jarrett Jack may not see the court the final 20 games, but the experience will help him down the road if his goal is to be a head coach. Hornacek endorsed that possibility and the 34-year-old Jack said it’s a potential goal. One thing for certain…
(Friday, March 02, 2018 8:10:26 PM)
LOS ANGELES — March Sadness arrived for the Knicks — their fourth straight season already out of the playoff race. By the time Friday night had ended at Staples Center, it was March Madness — as in head coach Jeff Hornacek being rip-roaring mad at the Knicks’ defensive effort in a 128-105 loss to the…
(Friday, March 02, 2018 6:16:40 PM)
LOS ANGELES — Clippers coach Doc Rivers, a huge fan of Kristaps Porzingis, said the Latvian star’s ACL tear is a devastating blow to the Knicks because of the uncertainty of his return. Rivers, who suffered an ACL tear when he was a Knicks guard during the 1993-94 season, hinted the club’s future could be…
(Friday, March 02, 2018 12:28:54 PM)
LOS ANGELES — Will this be March Madness or Mudiay Madness? With Emmanuel Mudiay still rounding into shape and mastering Jeff Hornacek’s playbook, the Knicks’ new starting point guard believes March could be his. The 2015 lottery pick has played in six games for the Knicks, engaged in five practices, made three starts and has…
(Saturday, March 03, 2018 2:43:33 AM)
LOS ANGELES — Emmanuel Mudiay’s body and game are a work in progress.
(Saturday, March 03, 2018 2:40:13 AM)
LOS ANGELES — After the Knicks’ defense was ripped to shreds, Jeff Hornacek ripped into his players.
(Saturday, March 03, 2018 12:19:56 AM)
LOS ANGELES — Jarrett Jack is happy he’s still a Knick.
[NYTimes] Sunday Routine: How Val Ackerman, College Basketball Executive, Spends Her Sundays (Friday, March 02, 2018 12:00:29 PM)
When the commissioner of the Big East conference is not going to games or visiting schools, she spends time in downtown Manhattan, where she’s lived for 30 years.
[NYTimes] James Harden Dazzles, LeBron James Answers, Joel Embiid Recruits (Friday, March 02, 2018 6:46:34 AM)
A day after Houston’s Harden wowed fans with a showstopping play, Cleveland’s James came up with one that was perhaps just as impressive.
[NYTimes] Books News: Etan Thomas: Now a Different Kind of Player (Saturday, March 03, 2018 12:54:27 AM)
The activist and former N.B.A. player tries to encourage athletes to become socially conscious in his book, “We Matter: Athletes and Activism.”
[NYDN] Frank Ntilikina may be more of a shooting guard than point guard (Friday, March 02, 2018 8:43:37 PM)
It has become clearer that the Knicks view Frank Ntilikina as more of a shooting guard, less of a point guard.
[NYDN] Doc Rivers: Porzingis injury will hurt Knicks in free agency (Friday, March 02, 2018 5:53:10 PM)
Rivers believes the uncertainty surrounding Kristaps Porzingis’ injury will negatively affect the franchise.
74 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.03.03)”
I know it’s a small sample size (50 min), but here’s Troy Williams’ per 36 numbers as a Knick:
23 pt, 7.2 rb, 2.9 stl, 2.2 tov, 3.6 pf.
Advanced includes 26.8 PER, 73.5% TS, 0.234 WS/48, 5.6 BPM.
+7.5 Oncourt and +10.3 On-Off.
I don’t know what the future holds for the kid, but he’s certainly started off quite well. There’s no doubt going to be some regression to the mean, but where that is would be anyone’s guess.
One thing that isn’t is his shot selection:
60% of FGA inside 3 ft, 33% of FGA are 3P, 6.7% are long 2P (still gotta Knick, I guess). If that isn’t a strong argument for Dantoni ball, I don’t know what is.
Not that I’m swayed by the small sample size, but I don’t know why we’re signing Williams to another 10 day as opposed to a rest of season or 2 year deal. He’s a young, athletic wing who competes on defense- don’t we need to develop that kind of player? Of course, if he didn’t play as well as he has during his 1st 10 day stint, I wouldn’t question another 10 days. But he’s playing well at a position of need. I don’t expect him to blow up Jeremy Lin style, but while we’re in developmental stage and while he’s cheap, signing him can only help. Are they trying to dangle a carrot in front of him to see how well he’ll play? Do they think he’ll become complacent? What gives? What happens if you keep dangling that carrot, and he takes over the starting SF and continues to play well there? Now you have to re-sign him for more dollars than you want. Perry needs to get a 2 yr minimum deal done so we can see what we have in him moving forward.
Or you could make the point that Perry is really good at finding solid players cheaply.
If that’s the case, why splurge now?
Not claiming him on waivers was still dumb. They could have had him on an extremely team-friendly three-year deal with no guarantee past the rest of this season and they passed so that they wouldn’t – what – have to commit a roster spot for the rest of the season? It didn’t (and doesn’t) make sense.
Having Kanter, Beasley, and Mudiay on the court together is a crime against defense.
The Clippers up against Kanter was a good example of why Kanter is not a starting C. Jordan went from a guy that gives you 11-12 very efficient points in 31-32 minutes to a guy that scored 19 hyper efficient points in 28 minutes. That doesn’t even take into consideration all the other players that scored inside because they targeted Kanter in some kind of P&R action or other play and he blew the defense.
You look at Kanter’s stat line and he had 18 points on 16 shots with 14 rounds (5 offensive). It looks like he had a pretty good game. But the reality is he was terrible.
Mudiay is almost comically bad at this stage. Burke is the best PG we have on the team now.
I recommended hiring Jack as an assistant on the 3/2 thread before the Post published that article about Horns recognizing Jack’s potential as a coach.
I agree with Totes. Sign Williams already; why wait for another team to see an improving player?
That’s the thing with Kanter-he has useful skills, and I think he deserves playing time in the NBA, but you have to be smart about how you use him. And it’s probably not even as simple as “he can’t match up with DeAndre Jordan”, it’s more like you can’t put him and Michael Beasley and Mudiay out on the court together against just about anyone. You put 3 guys who can’t play team defense out there together and guess what-your team isn’t going to play defense.
But honestly, Brian, why are almost no players claimed on waivers? There must be a downside for doing so.
Longtime lurker, very infrequent poster, but I think I can shed some light on the 10-day stuff and Troy Williams.
Re: not picking him up on waivers – I’m pretty sure the FO community talks with agents and understands whether there’s waiver interest for a guy. If there is, and you really like the guy, then maybe you put in a waiver claim for him to guarantee you get him. In most cases, though, there isn’t sufficient waiver wire interest, whether it’s because of a lack of available roster spaces, unfamiliarity with the released player, or whatever.
By letting the player clear waivers, you have a chance to negotiate a shorter deal like a 10-day. Given that you’ve likely never had this player in your building before, it makes sense to extend a really short contract in case he pulls any BS there and you want to cut him right away. You get a chance to evaluate the player while limiting the financial risk (from “rest-of-season guaranteed” to “10-days guaranteed”).
And then, with the 10-day, you still get exclusivity like with all NBA contracts; no one can negotiate with the guy while he’s actually under contract with you. This gives you some leverage in negotiating after the 10-day, and if the player has broken into your rotation, he probably wants to stick with your team instead of looking for other 10-day offers.
With a player like Williams, I’m pretty sure the Knicks will just offer him a similar type deal to his Rockets deal once the 10-days are over. I think Z-Man has a point in saying this is how basically every team operates so there must be some incentive. I’m pretty sure the incentive is just to limit your financial exposure until you have a better idea that you want to keep the guy around. I’m sure even King Dolan appreciates the savings.
If you have have 3-4 good defenders on the court with Kanter, you’ll still have a pretty good defense. But if he wasn’t such a weak link, the defense would still be better.
I think the C is the most important position on defense. Not only does have responsibility for the opposing C, he also has responsibility for protecting the paint when any of the other players on the court get beat on the perimeter.
I think Kanter would be a good backup C off the bench for 15 minutes or so. He won’t get abused as badly on defense against 2nd string players but he should abuse backups on offense with his rebounding and efficient scoring inside. If he’s the starting C, we are never going to be a top defense unless we have all terrific defenders around him. I’d be willing to do that to keep Steve Nash, Kyrie Irving, or some other player that’s critical to the offense on the court, but not for Enes Kanter. I’d way rather we simply accept that he’s a backup, offer him backup money, and if he takes it great and if not move on.
It makes sense if the Knicks are looking at multiple guys that might be available soon. Troy looks good right now but if he didn’t then we can just move on from him.
Criticizing not picking up Williams on waivers is nitpicking to be honest. He was on such a team friendly deal because he’s a fringe rotation player. If he develops into a useful, more athletic Lance Thomas we can still sign him to a team friendly deal after we’ve made our own evaluation of him. They didn’t pick him up off waivers because they didn’t have to in order to keep him around for an evaluation.
Grizzles vs Magic today, and then we have Sacramento in their building on the 2nd night of a back to back. Let’s hope this weekend ends up bringing us closer to the bottom.
I still do not get the point of the Mudiay deal. He’s sucked since he came into the NBA, he still sucks and it’s not like he makes up for his offensive boneheadedness on the defensive end.
I know you can say cynically he helps with the tank (which he absolutely does) but long term, what’s the plan? He’s not going to get better (sorry hoolahoop, but the guy has zero basketball IQ) and playing Frank at the 2 where he stands at the 3 point line and waits for passes isn’t really helping with his development either.
I don’t get the Mudiay hate here. He’s currently not a good NBA player but he’s a 21 year-old playing the most difficult position in the NBA. He’s got some great physical tools and he’s improved incrementally in most statistical categories each year he’s been in the league. I have no idea whether he’s going to develop into a good player but I think that it’s pretty dumb to write him off so soon. (Especially since many of the people here who are so eager to write him off are the same guys who claim that they would patiently tolerate a long slow rebuild with young players.)
Next up – a two year guaranteed deal for Troy Williams with a player option and a no trade clause
Because Knicks…..
Mudiay – A 21 year old kid that went straight from High School to the NBA (less 11 games in China) that is big, strong, athletic, good handle, good passer, improving shot, scouted sky high, and still endorsed by good authority isn’t worth a shot?
He’s a great bet for the knicks! Even if they lose. The reward potential/investment ratio is sky high. That’s how shit teams can leap frog. Little lost. Potential big gain.
If Mudiay sucks, he’s gone. Big deal. Not much lost. And you can even get something back for him, maybe more than you gave up. But, it’s better odds than scanning the G-League for the the next 1 -1000, or a second round hopeful child project.
But, I get it. He does a lot of stupid things that make him extremely inefficient. At times, he can be terribly frustrating to watch.
Here’s the thing. Unless he’s really stupid, his game is fixable. Mudiay sucks because of doing stupid shit, poor shot selection, shooting off balance, body contortions at the rim trying to finish.
Do the knicks have a PG coach that goes over game film with him, showing him his mistakes? I feel like “I” can fix his game.
If he doesn’t get better, trade him – someone else will take a chance on him.
The 20 year search for a good PG continues.
I’m okay with resigning Williams,
but please don’t use the stats to value him.
He was 0-10 on 3pt before yesterday 3-3 explosion and his shooting form with the big leg kick is bad.
He’s a good athletic defender in high speed plays, but is lost 90% of the time on team defense and he’s bad at boxing out where he relies a lot on athleticism and smart opponents take advantage.
And he played a lot of garbage time (for instance, basically all his points vs GS we’re in meaninglss minutes)
Go to Knicks Wall on You Tube and watch the videos.
I hope we’ll sign him on a 1+1 a là Burke, the kid has potential as an energy guy from the bench, he could fly, but he’s very raw.
If he could develop a reliable 3pt shot he’ll be a great find.
Add him to the list of youngsters that need a good coaching staff focused on development next year.
Right now we have a potentially great bench but we’re still very short on starters…
🙂
Signing fringe young players to 1 year contracts is the equivalent of buying a stock on the condition that if it goes up, you have to buy it again at its new price. It’s simply stupid. Another way of looking at it: it’s the equivalent of agreeing to act as a farm system for the rest of the NBA. Rationalizing it because it’s likely to be inconsequential is also IMO silly because it’s indicative of the mindset and philosophy of the front office. There were clear signs of idiocy in small moves that Phil Jackson did right off the bat even if the moves themselves weren’t a big deal such as signing Jason Smith and using Iman and Chandler’s trade value to create cap space rather than add young talent or picks.
Re: Troy Williams
They resigned him for another 10 days… good for now, after that we’ll see what they’ll do.
Just for fun, last year when HOU signed him, he scored 21 points in his debut (after 11 games inactive/DNP),
this year he played 4 games, only 1 game over 4 minutes (8).
And HOU usually blows out a lot of teams.
Re: Kanter’s defense.
He’s probably the worst P&R defender in the league,
but yesterday vs. Jordan he was left naked by the perimeter defense,
Clippers guard are regularly bypassing their defenders so when he helped Clips guards alley-ooped to Jordan, when he stay put they went to the rim…
He’s not athletic enough to help and recover with this kind of wet paper first line defense (especially Mudiay), but everyone could look like a fool in this circumstances.
Yeah, a couple of the dunks last night were definitely Kanter’s fault, but others were not. Guys were penetrating the lane, closing in for a layup or dunk, and Kanter rotated over to at least challenge them, leaving his guy wide open. Most of the time no one else reacted.
Kanter was at least trying, though ineffectively. Others were not even trying. Incredibly lazy D from just about everyone last night (Burke and Frank do try, though). Beasley and Mudiay are very lazy and/or just give up too easily. I think Beasley hunts rebounds, probably for the stats.
I wonder if most of the team now tunes Hornacek out. This tendency to at least try in the first half but totally give up early in the 2nd doesn’t reflect well on him.
Yeah, Frank is a good defender and he’s always trying (or close to) and the effort Burke is putting on defense is remarkable.
Beasley, on the other side is… Beasley
Here’s a quote from his last interview with Haynes of ESPN:
““[I’m] not satisfied. Like I can score, but that’s not like my main focus. Like I want the opportunity. I want someone, a coach, an organization to believe in me to the point where I can win games.”
Apparently quite a few teams were interested in Troy Williams and he chose NY, so that’s a pretty nice thing. Also, the Rockets are pretty good at scouting so that they signed him to a 3-year deal in the first place is promising. They only cut him to free up a roster spot.
Re: mudiay, I’m going to bring up the seen vs unseen concept again.
The “what’s the problem with playing Mudiay ” crowd (or person) doesn’t see the unseen, or opportunity cost, which is that Frank is not getting Mudiay’s pg minutes.
It’s a fact that Mudiay has sucked for 3 years. We don’t know what Frank will be after 3 years, but it sure as hell won’t help his development if you’re not playing your 19 year old pg at pg.
It’s the knicksiest of knicks moves to play Mudiay over Frank.
Williams’s a good pick,
I’d rather have him playing 25 then Beas or LT.
So, we’re not the only team interested in him that didn’t claim him from waivers despite his good contract with nothing guaranteed… I’m curious to know if the other fan bases are angry with their team as we are…
🙂
That’s part of the problem.
@26
Sure, but the problem is highlighted by the incapacity of the perimeter defense and the absence of rotation help on Jordan.
Yesterday at least he was trying, I don’t know how many big men in the League could have done better being always alone, maybe 10 or 12?
He’s a terrible defender, I’m just saying that the rest of the defense only made things worse.
Re: Carmelo
Just for fun: what a year (and playing with Westbrook, George and Adams)!
KP did a fantastic job protecting the paint and covering for Kanter’s lack of length and speed, but we’d be better off acknowledging that Kanter is a very significant weak link in the middle than complain about the perimeter defense from Mudiay or whoever else is getting beat. We have to fix that too. But the role of the C is to be a backstop for those guys when they get beat. Teams are running those plays where he is forced to switch or help because they know he’s too slow and not long enough to defend them.
Again, my feeling is that you don’t try to build your defense around a flawed player like Kanter so you can get 14 efficient points a night. You do that for a player that is otherwise elite. Kanter is a bench player.
@18
But Troy Williams isn’t signed to a 1-year deal? The choice wasn’t “pick up 3 year deal off waivers” or “sign him only through the end of this season.” The choice was “pick up 3 year deal off waivers” or “try this guy out for a couple of 10-day stints and then negotiate a similarly team-oriented multi-year deal if you like him.” We are still in the “trying this guy out” phase while he plays out his second 10-day.
I agree that not picking Troy up off waivers and then signing him only through the end of the year would be poor asset management.
Also, on the Mudiay thing:
I think that starting Mudiay and playing him rotation minutes through the end of this year and at the beginning of next year is part of the same asset management strategy. If you look at a young developing team as a sort-of financial portfolio that can be managed well, Mudiay is basically a common stock holding in our “mad money” account. We bought super low because the market doesn’t value the stock very highly because the underlying company (um, player) is currently ass-juice. We’re hoping we can pump some capital into that asset and turn it into something useful for us (in terms of basketball, either a useful Mudiay or a better return on trading Mudiay somewhere else). That’s why we want to “check his stock” every day because as soon as it hits a certain point, we’re going to want to cash in (again, favorable extension or favorable outward-bound-trade).
Burke is more like a holding we have in a CD – safe for two years then we have to decide how to reinvest. Frank is like our 401k; we have ages before we have to make any decisions what to do with it and we’d actually be penalized by trying to cash it in early. We don’t have to make any decisions on Frank for 4 years, and we have total control for 8 years if we want it. So the team isn’t rating his stock every day; production booms and busts are expected and most important is just that gains…
But also I’ll just say that I agree that Mudiay sucks balls right now. His “finishing moves” are honestly hilarious they’re so bad. And I’ve never seen someone circle so far around a screen. When he comes around pin downs he literally ends up at the SLOB entry line like 7 ft beyond the 3pt line. Like, wtf dude?
@28
Building a defense around Kanter will be foolish so… maybe the Knicks will do it 🙂
I’m not campaigning for Kanter as a defender, I said many times that I want him as the second unit offensive focus with Burke, but when your coach call the defense “a layup line”…
KP is in the top tier of rim protectors, no doubt about it.
Defense at the start of the year. by effort level only, is very different to what we have now, despite the presence of Jack.
Even Beasley was trying then 😀
@30 good point on Mudiay’s routes on screens…
Houston and Morey is very smart when it comes to smaller contracts. They always seem to sign any young players and 2nd picks to 3-year contracts with year two either partially guaranteed or unguaranteed and year three unguaranteed. It might occasionally cost them a bit of money short term but when it works out, like with Beverley it saves them a lot of money. We need to always tie up young players on long cheap contracts because the benefits largely outweigh the risk. Imagine if Baker had had a three-year minimum contract last year it would have saved us 8 million over this year and next. That pays for a lot of misses.
Also we need to cut bait on Hicks and Kornet and try a couple different g-league players. they don’t seem to be sticking and haven’t shown much in their time. I vote Christian Wood and maybe Nigel Hayes.
In my eyes, Mudiay is a very low-cost gamble – the type of gamble teams should take when teams are short on high-level talent and limited in 1st round draft pick quantity (and quality?).
When I saw him in person last night, he looks like a point that THINKS he knows what he’s doing out there, but doesn’t. That, and not nearly a good enough shooter to take the kinds of shots he did with the dribble.
This won’t be a very advanced stats-y answer, but I really think most of his improvement needs to come “btwn the ears” as they say – or I can at least see why people would feel that way.
Hicks and Kornet are two way G-League contracts (basically player 16th and 17th on the roster) and the date for signing that kind of contract is expired.
They know Hayes very well, he’s played a lot in Westchester.
Woods is a good ticket, but you need to waive someone on the 15 men roster, now full with the resigning of Williams.
Only candidates are Jack and Beasley and I think they don’t want to do that.
Currently we have 3 spots occupied by injured or “estranged” players (KP, Baker, Noah).
Re: Mudiay
He looks like a low Basketball IQ player (or “reverse Frank”)
Mudiay really shouldn’t be this poor of a defender with his body. He really does seem to have zero instincts and I do wonder if he’s another casualty from the AAU circuit (plus going to China and not getting the best coaching out there).
If you look at Frank, he’s got a lot of issues everywhere, makes rookie mistakes, can’t shoot with confidence, gets way too rattled by ball pressure etc. But he seems to understand the right plays to do and the proper way to react to some plays when Mudiay seems completely oblivious. That’s not saying either of them are finished products or have clear career paths ahead of them already set, but it’s mind blowing that Mudiay has played 4400 minutes in his career and can’t position himself properly on one single screen.
Doesn’t it feel like with all this losing we should be higher than the 9th pick in the draft? (And even if we lose the rest of our games, we could still pick 9th.)
Ah, all those November wins….wish we could give them back.
When was the last time a guy was able to get his brain taught to play better?
Mudiay is trash and that’s ok. Just don’t go around thinking he can get better.
Yeah, Mudiay is sort of last year Derrick Rose without the ability to finish in the paint. And honestly plays the PnR worse than Frank (even though Frank might have the worst handle ever for a supposed point guard).
Players like Williams are rarely placed on waivers. Players that get waived typically are A. terrible players that no one wants, B veterans making a ton of money or C. decent young players on short term contracts (so picking up the contract wouldn’t really give you any benefit). Decent young players on cheap, extremely team-friendly contracts rarely end up on waivers.
What the knicks need is a mad scientist like Dr Frankenstein.
Take Frank’s brain and Baker’s heart and put them in Mudiay’s body.
Take Kanter’s ass and brain and put them in/on KP’s body.
Take Timmy’s balls and give them to Lee.
Give Lance’s brain to Beasley.
Now you’ve got a contender.
I’m with Brian on the Williams situation. When the Knicks signed him, I looked up his contract with Houston and my first thought was, why not just claim him on waivers? Two team options? Why not?
They gave up on Willy, who had a very nice value contract, too. Combining these moves with the overpays of Timmy and Ron makes one wonder about what criteria these guys have about contracts. OTOH, the Burke deal is just fine.
What, if anything will they offer O’Quinn? Will they try to extend Kanter, and at what salary? Etc.
@40
LMAO 🙂
So with 4 super players, you add Carter/Mikal in the draft,
build a decent bench (that right now includes 3 brainless vegetables,
one eunuch and one heartless hair model) and you’re right in the conference Final.
@ Ben R —
Ron Baker isn’t even the best example in recent Knicks history:
* Jeremy Lin
* Lance Thomas
* Langston Galloway
* Cole Aldrich
* Chris Copeland
* Steve Novak
All these guys came to the Knicks on minimum deals as fringe NBA players. Some were older, it’s true, but all signed 1 year minimum deals, had great seasons, and then went off to another team because we were too shortsighted to give them like $500k more guaranteed money up front to lock them up for multiple unguaranteed or lightly guaranteed years.
@43
Why put Lance Thomas and Steve Novak in this group?
Thomas was part of the Smith/Shumpert trade, waived, then signed to a 10-days and has played only for the Knicks since then.
Novak was signed as a free agent, resigned and later traded to TOR in the Bargnani trade.
Neither one went to another team because we’re too cheap.
I know we hate our front office but…
At least we didn’t trade for Blake Griffin. The guy is shooting a 49% ts% since joining the Pistons and they’re not even going to make the playoffs. I think it’s safe to say the give SVG control over the entire franchise experiment has been a huge costly fail.
IMO, SVG has been terrible from start to finish and the Griffin deal was just icing on the cake.
Unrelated, but I was thinking about giving up on young players too soon.
How does Orlando feel?
They gave up on Oladipo and Tobias Harris. I can’t even remember what they got but I’d have to think given where they are now, they’d be better off if they had a little patience.
The thing with Mudiay is we might have two superior younger players at his position already. So how much of a look are we going to give him if he keeps playing like this.
You could make a pretty good team out of the guys they’ve given up on for no apparent reason.
Payton, Oladipo, Harris, Sabonis, Dedmon, KOQ, Harkless, and Hezonja (declined team option for next year) is easily a playoff core. It might get a little expensive but as along as they held on to all of their picks it would be a pretty successful rebuild. They make the Knicks look like a paragon of asset management.
It is straight up humiliating that these guys got more of a chance than Willy Hernangomez.
Brian, but all 29 other teams passed on him, including several who wanted to sign him on a 10-day contract after he cleared waivers i.e. had roster room to sign him. Isn’t it curious that there was not a single team in the league that was interested in claiming him and his contract if it was as logical to do as you are implying?
@50
I’ll chime in for Brian. I do wonder about no one else claiming him. Maybe there is something about him (off court issue, work ethic?) that we don’t know.
However, how many of the 29 other teams are even slightly interested in claiming a guy like him at this stage of the season? I doubt most playoff teams have any need or care to. So, probably safe to eliminate most or all of them. He’s not an established vet who might interest them.
Then, how good a fit is he for all the tanking/rebuilding teams? I can’t say for all of those, but in the case of the Knicks, who have really no true 3 on the roster (other than sort of LT), he makes a lot of sense to grab and maybe lock up a couple of team options on.
He makes a lot more sense for the Knicks to claim than most, and maybe even all, of the other teams.
Only teams that had either the cap OR a large enough trade exception OR MLE/BAE dollars available could have signed him so it’s not 29 teams. It’s the 30th team – Houston – which is the more concerning to me because Morey had a few other candidates to waive like Zhou and he chose Troy.
Kudos to Cronin for raising the possibility of using an exception to sign Williams at the time the Knicks signed him. I don’t recall this possibility ever being mentioned anywhere else. And, like Brian said, how many young guys like him get waived with 2 non-guaranteed years left? He strikes me as the type of player NYK should have picked off waivers. He’s a raw talent at a position of need that might benefit from some focused player development. He’s not a fit on a deep win now roster like the Rockets but he appears to be a nice fit for us in that regard. He’s more likely to be a rotation player than Mudiay.
We definitely should not give up on Kornet after 54 NBA minutes. His DRB% is 24%, his block% is 8.1%. We know from the G-league that he’s much much better from 3 than his current 18%. A center who could spread the floor, protect the rim, and rebound is rare and valuable. Plus he’s a high IQ player. Both he and Dotson should be getting at least 15mpg for the rest of the season. Not giving Hornacek sensible minimum minutes targets for our young players through the end of the season is a major failure of the front office.
Another question: his contract was guaranteed unless he was waived by a certain date. When he gets waived, does he actually have to clear waivers or does the act of waiving him eliminate the contract?
I agree that an argument can be made for claiming him, but let’s face it, it is not really a big deal. He’s a dime-a-dozen minimum salary guy at this point and if someone offers him more, good for them. My guess is that he signs a team-friendly deal with us.
@Max
The point is not about our cheapness. It’s about our stupidity. In any salary capped league, especially one with a hard cap, which with the new tax and sign and trade rules, the NBA almost has, a player’s value is defined by how much you underpay then.
The only way to underpay a player is if you sign him or multiple years and he improves. In the case of minimum salary, borderline NBA players,which is what those guys I listed were when we added them, you have the leverage.you can sign them for multiple unguaranteed years by Just offering a bit extra up front.
The extra $500k is almost meaningless to your team yet or front office has preferred to keep that tiny a bit of cap room…because they are arrogant most likely and think they can get value in free agency, even though their predecessors have done more damage than good with their FA signings.
We know two other teams were interested in Williams. One team (the Mavericks) was capped out like the Knicks but did not have a trade exception big enough to claim him (they could have used their bi-annual exception, but that’s a whole other situation, ya know? I wouldn’t say “Use your bi-annual on him!” for the Knicks, either). The other team (the Trailblazers) had spent a lot of effort ducking just barely under the luxury tax line. Claiming Williams would have put them over the luxury tax line.
So, well, that’s why. 🙂
He’d have to clear waivers. In the NBA, if you claim a player on waivers, you essentially take on the precise previous contract, including Bird’s Rights and stuff like that (rights you don’t get if the player clears waivers). So until the player clears waivers, the contract isn’t technically over.
Now, all this being said, I will certainly agree that this isn’t some huge deal. It’s like the Ron Baker contract. That was an awful contract, but probably won’t matter much in the long run, either. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t still awful. This is not as bad as the Baker situation (not even close), but it’s still a bad case of asset management.
@55
I quote you:
“all signed 1 year minimum deals, had great seasons, and then went off to another team”
That is simply NOT true.
Neither Thomas nor Novak “went off” to another team. Thomas is still with the team right? And Novak was traded after resigning with us (he played a full season on the new contract)
That’s what I’m pointing out.
I’m not disagreeing on the economic theory.
That and other questions of that nature is why I didn’t criticize the front office at the time of the signing when Brian mentioned the possibility of using a trade exception. There might be some technical reason why a trade exception could not be used or might not be so attractive an option as it first appeared. Here’s a quote from an article:
That’s kinda vague because it says “interest as a free agent”. I’ve been burned too many times when I’ve gone into the CBA weeds. Z-Man, might be a nice question to ask Coons.
I just can’t get that worked up about whatever this team does with the back end of its roster. It’s like worrying about which air freshener you’re going to hang in your dented 2008 Hyundai Elantra.
Yo does no one understand that we can just give Troy Williams the EXACT SAME CONTRACT he had in Houston as soon as his 10-days are up? We can give him an even more team friendly deal – around the minimum for 4 years, only guaranteed through the end of this year, with team options in each of the subsequent years. Bird rights obviously don’t matter for a guy who will make the minimum next year almost no matter what. There’s no plausible situation where Troy Williams earns himself more than a minimum contract next year over these last 19 games.
The reason why we didn’t claim him is because if he turned out to be an asshole we could cut him and only pay him for 10 days, not for the rest of the season as was guaranteed by the contract we would have inherited. Also, there’s a small chance we can still use the exception we would have used to claim him in some sort of draft day trade.
Oh, and to Latke’s point, the front office isn’t worried about $500k of cap room; they’re worried about $500k of straight cash homie.
Dolan doesn’t care about the money. That’s the one virtue of the guy. Just cut him if he’s a real problem in those 10 days. Were there reports that he’s a difficult guy out of Houston? What I read is that Morey didn’t really want to waive him but needed to free up roster spot for Johnson.
He only has to play well enough to spark the interest of other teams this summer. And then there’s players like Lin/Covington/Whiteside etc.
He might reject such an offer especially if teams like Mavs and Portland were interested in him. He might get a better deal if he waits until the summer when those teams will have cap/MLE.
Yeah but you guys will be here excoriating the front office if he turns out to be a Covington/Whiteside/Lin on another team. Teams like the Spurs/Heat/Rockets/Raptors pick up guys like him on favorable deals and develop them. Don’t you want the front office to have that mindset?
Seems hard to argue that he can’t possibly make more than the minimum when he was already making more than the minimum. That’s why capped out teams would have had to have used exceptions to claim him, since his Houston contract was for more than the minimum.
@64
That’s fair. I didn’t look up what he was making previously. I also remembered that I’m pretty sure you can’t give multi-year deals for “the minimum” because the league minimum is set every year?
Anyway, I just think its a bit of Knicks PTSD to pan the move because it is basically the way it works out with all the guys who get cut every year these days. I do understand that everyone understands it’s not a huge move in the grand scheme of things.
You can give multiyear contracts at the minimum, following a table set in the CBA:
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q22
It changes every year but is already projected for year 2/3/4/5 at the moment you sign.
It’s based on your years of experience in the league.
According to BBREF Troy Williams sign with Houston as a 2-year veteran:
– first year (this one) for exactly the minimum
– second year for exactly the minimum
– third year for 58K over the minimum
Spotrac has the same numbers.
I think it’s impossible to sign him for less than that in a new contract because the cap is expected to slightly raise and the minimum moves accordingly, plus at this stage the starting point for Troy will be higher because he’ll be a 3-year veteran, but the difference should be minimal.
Obviously It’s different if another team offers him more than the minimum or a full/partial MLE or BAE.
Williams’s contract was an interesting case, because it looks like after the Jerami Grant/ Robert Covington 76ers deals (that were 4 years deals) agents are counseling their clients to not accept 3/4 multiyear contracts at the minimum, but we all know that Morey’s a wizard.
From the Knicks POW, the keyword is “development”, alas we’re not been good at that, we’re still paying Chasson Randle 1,3 MIL for playing in Madrid, let’s hope things will change.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordade01/gamelog-advanced/2018/
Maybe, but can you explain why Jordan’s best scoring game came against the league’s #1 offense, and that he had another outstanding game against them in January? Or how he lit up Steven Adams? Maybe sometimes it’s just a fluky night?
I mean, I feel the Tyson Chandler discussion will never actually go away from us as a collective.
It does help that the Knicks are so terrible on defense. But also I can’t see how DeAndre hasn’t proved without a shadow of a doubt that he’s great.
But that’s just me, and I still think Tyson Chandler is the best Knick of the 2010s by far, so yeah.
I’m still pissed we traded Ariza for the washed corpse of Steve Francis.
Lonzo Ball just destroyed the Spurs with Knick legend Travis Wear playing crunch time minutes… this season is getting weirder by the minute.
It’s a very small sample size but Ball has been amazing in the last few Lakers’ games and they have been super fun to watch. I can’t believe I’m saying this about the Lakers.
There are going to be fluky nights, but apparently Kanter has a lot of fluky nights where he can’t defend anyone and the other team’s game plan is to attack him. 🙂
Seriously though, I think this is case where you HAVE TO watch the game, see the possessions, and how the opposing team is attacking and scoring. Sure, as someone said, there are times where the perimeter defense breaks down and Kanter is put in a terrible position. But that’s why having a defensive C is so valuable. A good one will stop the play sometimes. A bad one will allow them to score practically every time.
The Knicks actually won the coin toss back in 2009, putting them #6 ahead of the Clippers at #7. Gallo and Gordon were both good picks at #6 and 7.
Of course, the Knicks also entered the draft in the #5 spot and got pushed back by the Bulls winning the lottery.
Also, the Knicks won two of their last three games in the 2008-09 season to push them from #3 to #5. But don’t worry, it’s not like the #4 and #5 picks were Russell Westbrook and Kevin Love. Oh…right…
That was one of the things that made no sense about the deal. The Knicks sent Noah to Siberia, the fate of O’Quinn is still an unknown, and the team was about to start tanking without KP. There was every reason to keep him and start playing him at that point. All he had to do was wait another week or two and he would have had his chance to prove his value. Someone mentioned that there might be more to this story than we know. Maybe that’s the case.