[The Guardian] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 12:35:00 GMT
The Big Three era is dead and the Knicks are back: 20 things we learned from the NBA playoffs
[New York Post] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 10:11:00 GMT
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[Daily Mail] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 14:31:37 GMT
New Yorkers left FURIOUS after Jayson Tatum was put on a Nike billboard outside of Madison Square Garden – the
[The New York Times] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 15:33:54 GMT
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[Posting and Toasting] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 11:00:00 GMT
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[Sixers Wire] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 15:06:00 GMT
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[NJ.com] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 12:34:00 GMT
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[SILive.com] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 18:09:00 GMT
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[Posting and Toasting] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 18:13:54 GMT
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[Sports Illustrated] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 20:00:01 GMT
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[Sports Illustrated] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 18:00:00 GMT
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[FanSided] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 22:47:42 GMT
2024 NBA Mock Draft: Hawks-Donovan Clingan connection builds, Knicks strike gold
[Empire Sports Media] – Wed, 19 Jun 2024 18:24:03 GMT
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218 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.06.20)”
Unimpeachable authority on player value, Seth Part now, has released his tiered player rankings through tier 2. The much ballyhooed Dejounte Murray is in the same exact tier as Divo.
Can’t believe we didn’t give up multiple 1sts to acquire Murray.
Did I miss something yesterday and OG said he’ll test the market?
Yeah, there were multiple reports that OG wasn’t thrilled with the Knicks offer: https://www.postingandtoasting.com/2024/6/18/24181153/og-anunoby-not-thrilled-with-what-the-knicks-are-offering
Thanks ThisChicanery.
God bless Ian Begley: https://sny.tv/articles/jalen-brunson-knicks-extension-2024-begely-column
Read the whole thing — which includes both the selfless and self-interested reasons for why Brunson might sign an extension this summer — but especially read this part:
So that means he will be under contract for 6 more years (2 more on current contract plus 4) or does he have to opt out of year 4, so that total will be 5 years? Six years is a looong contract.
EB brought up Tobias Harris making $40MM yesterday and I actually think he is a pretty good comp for OG.
– Highly sought after role player at a premium position every team wants (stretch 4).
– Philly gave up a lot to get him at the deadline (Landry Shamet, two firsts, two seconds).
– 26 years old, decent stats, long enough track record to know exactly what you were getting.
Philly bid against themselves, gave him 5/180, and it killed them. We’ve been laughing at that contract every day of its existence.
We’re scared of losing OG for nothing, and that’s reasonable. But step back for a second: we’re talking about an exceptional role player with one of the worst availability records in the NBA potentially seeking max money.
I’m confident Leon made him a fair offer. So go test the market, OG. You’ll likely find there’s a huge difference between teams being interested in you and GM’s putting their careers on the line for a low-ceiling guy who misses 1/3 of his team’s games.
“Philly bid against themselves,”
At least we know that by definition this will not happen.
“OG has multiple suitors willing to pay him near-max money” and “Several teams are willing to give up four or five first round draft picks for OG” spring from the exact same ultimate source — people talking their book.
Nice to see at least some here also not caught up in the OG hype bubble. Nice player, but come on already.
That “exceptional role player”, “nice player” transformed a one game over .500 team to a 20-3 team tout de suite….
Funny how much an “exceptional, nice role player” can make… 6-2 in the playoffs when he played more than 5 minutes, 1-4 when he didn’t.
Vecenie’s latest mock has us taking Filipowski, Dunn, and Shead: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5571609/2024/06/20/nba-mock-draft-hawks-donovan-clingan-bronny-james/
Correlation does not equal causation.
I mean, OG is certainly no DJM, Bob.
We will only know if OG actually tests the market.
His game plan seems to be to scare the Knicks to bid against themselves.
I actually challenge the assertion he has us by the balls. I don’t think he wants to test the market at all. Interest isn’t offers.
That’s a nice statement, but you think it was just a coincidence a one game over .500 team ignited like a supernova on the day he arrived, playing 20-3 ball. Then he got hurt and they played 13-14 when he was inactive, played 6-2 in the playoffs when he played including going up 2-0 vs Indiana and then platzed when he pulled the hammy.
Correlation equals causation is a fine statement. Correlation does not, in itself, prove causation, but it doesn’t eliminate it, either.
Do you have a better argument for the Knick’s incredible excellence when OG played and their complete mezzanine status when he didn’t. He kind of singlehandedly propelled them out of your blessed mezzanine.
I couldn’t agree more… especially when it comes to impact on winning.
Love OG and what he has done for us but come on dude. You’re going to get paid. Just take a good deal and don’t try to fuck us by squeezing every fucking dollar you can out of your contract.
It’s wild this situation compared to Brunson, who is literally our MVP and a top 10 player in the league, willing to sign a team friendly extension with us in order to help us win.
Take note, OG.
And yes, if we lose him it will completely change the calculus of that trade.
I’m guessing all of this will work itself out in the end.
The Knicks were 20-3 when OG played in the regular season. 12-15 when he was injured.
Putting aside that it’s obvious a much deeper analysis needs to go into that, how about we shift our focus to the fact that OG was only available 23 times in 50 games.
At some point you have to pay less attention to how stellar our record is in the games he’s played and start noticing how small that number is.
OG is certainly not nearly as good as a player E used to regularly call people stupid for doubting:
Swifty I’m with you 100% here. I love OG on the court but this is pissing me off.
Of course, I myself should take a step back and realize that I’m just reacting to Brian Windhorst tweets and Jonathan Macri newsletters.
The idea that OG “has us by the balls” and is seeking to capitalize on it upsets me. But that idea is speculation. It’s reasonable and well sourced, but still.
I think OG has us by the balls. We traded a lot for him and I am nearly certain he can get a max or close to it from someone else–I’m not a believer in the theory that CAA has successfully fooled people into believing there’s a lot of interest in him over a period of multiple years. I think they would do that for all of their clients if they had the power to do so, yet somehow it’s not something you hear about e.g. Gary Harris and D’Angelo Russell.
I love this insight.
Even people in science sometimes act as if when they say “correlation does not equal causation” they have disproved causation. That’s nonsense. If there’s a correlation that’s evidence of possible causation and suggests you better make a closer examination. That goes double if the correlation/causation makes sense based on other insights.
Intuitively do I think OG is fully responsible for the extreme difference between our record when he was in and out? No. Other players were also in and out and there’s always some noise in these kinds of things. But I’m pretty sure he caused enough of it to matter.
You missed the update to that.
He broke his wrist signing the contract and will be out for several months. 😉
Seriously, if he ever could have stayed healthy for a couple of off seasons and seasons in a row, I still think he would have been an impactful (albeit underrated by boxscore metrics) versatile defender and secondary playmaker. But you can’t have an NBA career when you are still a project after 7 years, constantly hurt, and missed almost the entire last season with a fractured tibia.
Yes.
A confluence of factors contributed both to our January supernova and to our struggles after OG went down.
Factors that contributed to our January supernova:
1. The critical addition of OG Anunoby.
2. We got a boost from dumping RJ Barrett.
3. Isaiah Hartenstein broke out
4. Josh Hart (who stunk for the first 2.5 months of the season) began regressing to his mean.
5. Deuce McBride moved into the lineup and excelled.
6. And perhaps most importantly: all the Knicks (except Mitch) were healthy for the month.
A confluence of factors also contributed to our struggles after OG got injured:
1. We really missed OG Anunoby.
2. We replaced Julius Randle with Precious Achiuwa.
3. Isaiah Hartenstein got injured. (We went 0-5 in the games he missed and he was on a minutes restriction for many more games.)
4. We played 2 games without Jalen Brunson (0-2)
5. We played 1 game without Donte (0-1)
6. Our two trade day acquisitions fizzled. Alec Burks turned in a -7.8 bpm performance in 311 minutes. Bojan was -4.9 in 557.
I think people underestimate how impactful going from a negative player to a positive player is because they focus most of the attention on the ability of just the incoming positive.
That swap was similar to going from guys like Payton and Walker to Brunson. It was worth way more than Brunson replacing some average starter .
It’s pretty simple.
What exactly is our Plan B if OG walks?
There is no Plan B. We will be substantially worse. That’s your Plan B.
Until somebody can explain to me what Plan B might consist of other than an instant slide to the middle of the pack, then yes, OG does have us by the balls. He has all the leverage here as far as I can tell.
Happy to. We can put the W/L record aside for a minute, but it is actually the entire point of the exercise, to win a lot more games than you lose. That being said:
Most of the missed games was caused by a long existing elbow injury that I am quite sure that they were aware of when they traded for him since they had access to all his medical records and examined him at the time of the trade.
It was surgically repaired and medical team likely ramped him up too quickly and he had a setback, which eventually resolved and he played terrific ball after that.
The hamstring injury according to you was absolutely cause by overuse by the coach, so that isn’t a knock on the player. According to you he beat OG into submission, physically.
I don’t get what you are arguing here. I agree with you that availability is always a consideration with any player. It is certainly fair to argue they shouldn’t have made the trade. I don’t agree because I don’t think they gave up as much as you do and the results were spectacular. I would have traded RJ for a nice MLT where the mutton is nice and moist. IQ wanted starters money without proving he had a position he could start at with a good team.
They are in a position now where they are somewhat at the mercy of the marketplace, but they knew that when they made the trade.
It’s wild this situation compared to Brunson, who is literally our MVP and a top 10 player in the league, willing to sign a team friendly extension with us in order to help us win.
I am not sure if it is that different as the apt comparison is the original Brunson signing. At the time, and from the outside, Brunson was a classic overpay (unless you believed the Miami rumours). Leon had a lot at stake then given the asset shedding to create the necessary cap space–and possibly more since he did not have enough past laurels as a cushion if he had failed to land him. But we signed him and gave Leon the benefit of the doubt that the $ was worth it since he knew Jalen literally from birth. As an aside, I think part of the reason that the overpay outcry never happened was that the alternative was to shed a lot more assets for a better player (same surname as a former number 1 tennis player who possibly played his last match yesterday) at the time.
The anti- OG crowd mystifies me. Pay the man his money gif from Rounders.
Harris was pretty good at a lot of things, but not great at anything. OG is elite on defense and at least pretty good at everything else. Harris isn’t shutting down Embiid for any length of time, being trusted to guard Maxey except when forced to on a switch, or adding the help defense OG adds.
Injury history is very worrying, but that doesn’t result in a discount as often as it probably should.
He stole my whole flow!
EB brought up Tobias Harris making $40MM yesterday and I actually think he is a pretty good comp for OG.
Love OG and what he has done for us but come on dude. You’re going to get paid. Just take a good deal and don’t try to fuck us by squeezing every fucking dollar you can out of your contract.
are we totally sure we thought through the first amendment?
there is no doubt that the OG trade came with a liability. that liability was his contract, which was too small to be extendable for more that 4/$117. extensions are ripe for discounts as they mitigate player risk. this intersects inconveniently with OG’s archetype: he is the sort of player who is much more valuable to a large (nearly infinite) sample of possible good teams than to a random team. OG is a one of a tiny handful of players that brings elite multi-position wing defense with genuine spacing. this means he provides meaningful marginal value to almost any lineup. tobias harris, in contrast, is a guy who might have added quite a few wins to a mediocre team, but can be close to worthless to some decent portion of good-team lineups.
and a thing about that nba salary cap dynamic that is widely known but not always stated abstractly is this: the marginal cost of a meaningfully additive player dollar can be very low for a certain class of good teams. certainly not zero — and higher with the latest apron restrictions and tax multipliers — but far lower than average. this inherently means that when you acquire a player like anunoby who is destined for free agency you are in part acquiring a liability: a contract that will reflect the extreme, segmented-market cost/benefit dynamics of his rather scarce set of attributes.
he was always going to get a contract that looks and is outsized relative to his average value to an average team. and a bad case injury outcome, seemingly higher than average for his prototype, would make that contract a disaster. a max is also a genuine impediment because the apron restrictions are not something you can just elide by painting a portrait of brock aller. it’s tempting to pull a strat and demur on the cap details: good teams should forget the money and just get OG! this is vaguely sensible. but you can’t then turn around and think you can trade trade two guys making $33 million for brandon ingram when apron restrictions at OG’s max likely prevent you from either aggregating salaries or making deals that don’t match at 100%. the aprons are not crazy game changers but they can matter.
i find the idea that owes it to someone (leon rose? james dolan? knick fans? jalen brunson?) to not try to maximize this contract genuinely puzzling. like not even wrong, but like some kind of category error.
Vecenie’s latest mock has us taking Filipowski
He stole my whole flow!
i am a draft piker who randomly picks a few guys to fall in love with via youtube after barely watching college basketball, so this is a naive question just because i happen to have seen several fillipowski games. is he much different as a prospect than frank kaminsky?
Most of what’s real and not happenstance is probably OG’s uniquely good fit with this particular cast of players. I don’t pay someone for that because inevitably over a 4 or 5 year contract, there will be a different cast of players — and I certainly don’t want to lock myself into having to doing things in the future just to maximize the impact of an overpaid role player who needs the right fit.
It’s stupid to overpay for a role player and then overpay him again because you overpaid for him in the first instance, thereby making it such that he has you by the stones. Putting yourself in a position where there’s no Plan B is stupid.
Plus he’s really injury prone. He got injured significantly three times in four months, once during the playoffs. Happens pretty much every year.
He’s a nice player. He’s not all that.
He has leverage as far as he can elicit an offer in excess of what the Knicks are offering. (I’m assuming he is fine here for equal money) There are only 4 teams with 40M in space. They can see what Hubert sees. If he insists on more than one of those teams can offer, the Knicks could explore a sign and trade with one of the other 25 teams with OG’s approval.
This is what is called a negotiation. It is what business people do. It is a first world problem with a multi millionaire handling with multiple billionaires. An equilibrium price will likely be found.
I was thinking the same thing, but then thought that Kaminsky would have been a perfectly cromulent backup 4, which on a rookie salary would be a win.
As for OG, I’m pretty sure the Sixers would gladly do 4/160. And OKC too. Both winning teams, so not the Detroit Disaster. There are viable alternatives likely to offer if we let them.
If we can go 5 years (can’t we?), I’d do 5/200 with ascending numbers – flexibility is more important this year than after, since we’ll be in the second apron either way – and take myself to a nice lunch.
I’m arguing that I don’t think an opposing GM is going to overlook those availability issues and give this role player a max contract when they’ve plagued his entire career stretching all the way back to college.
You don’t max a role player because your team got hot for a month when he got here.
There’s 7 years of data with this guy. Show me one other time he “single-handedly propelled” a team into the stratosphere.
“Will be interesting to hear what’s said when they get OG to improve the defense and the defense doesn’t improve.”
Check.
“Will be interesting to hear what’s said when they’re forced to make a bunch of moves to keep trying to improve the fit around their overpaid role player just because they overpaid him.”
Check forthcoming.
I still want to hear what Plan B would look like. We penny pinch OG and he goes to the Sixers.
Now what?
The 2022-23 Raptors had Pascal Siakim, Fred Van Vleet, Scottie Barnes, and Gary Trent Jr. among others in their nucleus. They were 41-41. OG missed 15 games. In those games, the Raps were 8-7 (after starting 0-4.)
Where was his impact then?
does someone want to tell him
OG was our consolidation trade. We don’t have assets to do another one. So unless you’re terrified of his injury history, as Phoenix was about Amare, you cannot lose him for nothing. The minimum you’d want is a fair sign and trade.
That’s a question for Leon.
Philly’s gonna get PG13 or Butler. Both are a (significant) cut above OG.
If you can get reliable iron men like PG13 or Jimmy Butler you have to do it
LOL you’re really something, you bring up OG’s unavailability over and over and then you cite 2 guys who have major unavailability issues as “a cut above”. Hysterical.
Plan B is let him test the market. If he doesn’t like the offer Leon made, go find a better one. If you do, we raise our offer. But we don’t bid against ourselves.
E, you’re larger point about him uniquely fitting our needs now is valid and also that the cast could change over 5 years, but I don’t think it’s right to say OG “needs the right fit.”
All players, to some degree, need the right fit around him.
But besides that, OG literally can play 2 positions easily – SF and PF – and can play the SG guard spot too. You can also even put him in at the 5 in short stretches for small ball lineups. He’s about as versatile of a role player as you can get.
So OG doesn’t “need the right fit.” If we lock him up and he’s healthy, in theory we can move in a lot of different directions if we want. IE, if we did want to move on from Randle, we could. Maybe you don’t want OG to permanently be your starting PF but if we traded Randle, OG could fill in that role for awhile.
“…to maximize the impact of an overpaid role player who needs the right fit.”
About as polar opposite of a description of his value as you can get. If you start opining on draft prospects, I may take them with a grain of salt.
I always found this to be highly applicable in the case of going from Fizdale to Thibs, as well.
OG is valuable precisely because he can fit in with almost any roster.
What’s the team where OG Anunoby is not a good fit? What’s the team that doesn’t want a long wing who can play and guard multiple positions and shoot? That fits with pretty much every team in the league.
It’s a spectacularly dumb argument to say that we only want OG because of “fit.” He’s rather obviously a very versatile player.
I don’t think CAA is fooling people, either, and it’s obvious why tons of teams would be “interested” in OG Anunoby.
But everyone seems to be converting “interested” into “lining up guaranteed 4-year max contract offers”.
At the right price.
On a max contract, he is probably going to diminish any roster he joins.
I don’t think anyone is saying Leon should put 5/$245M on the table right now. Sure, negotiate to the extent possible.
But it’s a delicate situation. If the money is similar, and again, I am quite confident it will be because one of the cap space teams would happily pay a whole lot for OG Anunoby, he may well choose the team that didn’t demur.
Literal opposite of the truth, but whatever.
Whenever people say this kind of thing, the logical follow up is to ask them how much money they’ve turned down from their employer in order to allow their employer to recruit better talent.
He didn’t really “impact winning” on the Raptors of one year ago. That’s what I meant by “fit.” He needs the right “fit” to really “impact winning,” and even that’s potentially being generous.
There’s no real evidence in his full career that he’s some sort of unique ruff ryding “winning impactor.” He’s a nice player. Nice players tend to help teams be better. But there’s nothing unique to him that’s any more than that.
Playoffs are all that matters at this point.
I’ve turned down a shit down of money from potential new employers, as recently as four days ago, actually. But I’m also in the same apartment I moved into in 2007. I really dislike moving.
That’s neither here nor there, though, because I am not asking OG to give up any money. I think he’s bluffing and I want him to be called.
Then say that. What you said was unclear.
He can fit on pretty much any team. You don’t have to build a unique team around him.
Actually, he’d be a shitty fit on a team with four other low-usage players with offensive limitations, but that’s a parlor game argument of no moment here.
We’re getting very far afield from the original claim, which is that he’s some kind of unique winning impactor based on the with/without W-L records with the Knicks. And from that thin gruel, we’re supposed to then conclude that the Knicks should just give him a blank check and that giving him said blank check would be quality roster and payroll management.
That claim and line of reasoning is devoid of merit.
The Knicks held Philly to a 116.9 offensive rating, pretty much entirely fueled by Embiid’s trips to the line (their eFG% was pedestrian).
The Pacers did indeed score easily against the Knicks, but for some strange reason I can’t put my finger on I feel like it’s kinda unfair to hang that on OG Anunoby’s head.
OG Anunoby is indeed a “unique winning impactor” as evidenced by countless empirics and the Knicks should give him a contract that will keep him from signing with one of the other teams that would gladly sign him.
Leon’s son is bluffing his dad? Interesting take…
There are literally zero plausible “empirics” that show this, and nothing about his career demonstrates it.
Like virtually every player in the association, he impacts winning in line with his easily-observed BB-ref metrics. No more, no less.
If anything, he’s an actually better eye test/first-order data player than his BPM metrics, which frankly stink. He was a negative-BPM player in 2023-24. He’s a better player than that, obviously.
This comparison will never work.
IF my company does really well because I turned down money in order for them to have more money to hire better talent, it won’t affect my life in any way other than the vibes at my office will probably be a little better. Or maybe I might get a bigger raise or a bonus later.
Whereas for an athlete there are all sorts of short term and long term benefits (financial and otherwise) to being on a winning team, let alone a team that competes for a championship or, hopefully, even wins one.
For example, Brunson and Hart have their podcast. They make money doing that little side venture. Do you think they would have as many listeners if they didn’t make the playoffs this year?
Do you think Randle would have been asked to sit in on ESPN commentary during a Finals game if the Knicks didn’t make the playoffs?
If The Knicks are contenders for the next 4 or 5 years, do you think the players get additional benefits because of that? Free meals, VIP entrance to any club, investment opportunities, endorsement opportunities, etc? Post career, are they more likely to get coaching jobs, broadast jobs, front office jobs, etc…if they were part of a winning team?
Granted, a lot of this stuff is hard to quantify now and none of it is guaranteed, but anyone with just a little bit of foresight can see the potential numerous benefits of leaving some money on the table now in order to help your team build a winner. If you have faith that the GM and team can do that and you can think down the road a bit, you’d be wise to do so.
A better analogy would be an employee who is also an investor in a start up. Are they going to leave salary on the table now in the hopes that their start up might do really well in the future and they earn more in the future because of it.
I enjoy debating you, but you have the unfortunate habit of contorting the facts to try to force a square peg into a round hole. The team didn’t get hot for a month… they got hot for 4.5 months whenever he hit the floor and quite cool when he didn’t.
That is quite a role player…. like prime Draymond Green was a role player for the championship Warriors.
Top-35 in EPM in 3 of the last 4 seasons.
Doogie, do your thing.
So? Their playoff DRat last year was way better than that.
20-3 and 6-2 in the playoffs is as empirical as you can get. Add 14-4 (including playoffs) to the games OG played and Randle didn’t to that mix…
Wow. Impressive. EPM.
And top 6 in Defensive EPM the last 2 years.
I guess I didn’t consider that if OG tells Dolan to keep his money he might be able to set up a podcast
There are literally zero plausible “empirics” that show this, and nothing about his career demonstrates it.
the public rapm-only sites seem to have vanished but i have him as 26th in the nba in rapm over the last three seasons using standard regularization and recency weighting.
We now see in full detail why we have the strong OG fanboy contingent around here.
1. He’s not RJ Barrett.
2. He’s a AIO metric favorite.
Dude’s a KB synedoche, not a basketball player.
Look E, we’ll never be able to get a real stud like Cam Reddish and Frank Ntilikina just spurned us for Partizan Belgrade. So we’ve gotta make do with what we have.
Draymond is a great example. They paid him $16MM.
I mean if you want to be snarky and focus on one part of my longer post, go right ahead. But I don’t think my point is invalid.
For example, Brunson and Hart have their podcast. They make money doing that little side venture. Do you think they would have as many listeners if they didn’t make the playoffs this year?
Do you think Randle would have been asked to sit in on ESPN commentary during a Finals game if the Knicks didn’t make the playoffs?
If The Knicks are contenders for the next 4 or 5 years, do you think the players get additional benefits because of that? Free meals, VIP entrance to any club, investment opportunities, endorsement opportunities, etc? Post career, are they more likely to get coaching jobs, broadast jobs, front office jobs, etc…if they were part of a winning team?
i swear you guys are fucking with me
Nobody’s suggesting with a straight face that they pay Frank or Reddish $49M/year.
Draymond is a great example. They paid him $16MM.
this was in fact just over $1 million below his max salary in 2015-16, and, crucially, he was a restricted free agent at the end of the third year of his rookie scale deal.
Jrue is a great example, too. Not the Jrue of old, the one who was a #2 on a title team. But today’s Jrue, the exceptional supporting player in Boston. And he just signed for 33.
Porzingis is another guy who takes his team to a completely different level whenever he plays. He got 30mm for 2 years.
These are OG’s peers: Draymond ($25MM/year), Porzingis (30MM) & Jrue ($33MM). He deserves to be paid like them and we should pay the man his money.
Paul George and Jimmy Butler are not his peers. If he wants to get paid like them, go find a sucker.
They didn’t even max him? Jeez. Did they not understand his impact on winning?
Seriously, though, I know it’s impossible to compare RFA contracts to UFA contracts, let alone contracts under different TV deals.
Suffice to say the Warriors never broke the bank for Draymond. The most he ever made was $25MM (which he is making now).
They signed him for 4 years 100M in 23 when he was more radioactive than usual after cold-cocking Poole.
I’m not worried about OG. Leon is one shrewd SOB when it comes to evaluating market and squezzing the juice.
I am concerned about loosing iHart though. Statistically he was the 2nd best player on a 50 win team but I think most undervalue his contributions. Kid lacks flash and somehow has been overlooked his whole career. Hope history repeats itself one more time and Leon signs him for $17m aav.
I’m squezzing a lemon into my juice right now, but I sure as hell wouldn’t want to loose iHart.
You are a business person. Deserves has nothing to do with it. I’m quite sure Leon has made him an offer you or I might deem reasonable or “market based”. He will have the opportunity to be paid whatever some team is willing to give him. That is the essence of the free market… he is allowed to sell his services to the highest bidder.
That doesn’t mean we have to match or exceed the highest bidder, but there is nothing about deserves in this equation. He has the right to seek out a bidder for a price higher than the Knick’s initial offer if he cares to.
If he finds there is no bid better than Leon, he may act as he decides. Or his agent might contact say SA or Houston after 7/1 and see if they are interested in a sign and trade for a price higher than he can get among the 4 teams with a lot of cap space.
But he would be foolish not to explore all his options.
Think of the spot the Yankees are in with Soto….
No offense but there wasn’t much there. You seemed to be going back and forth between arguing that OG should place a large value on non-monetary factors, which is wholly subjective and up to him, and arguing he would actually in fact make up the lost money, which is almost certainly not true.
Look man, you want OG Anunoby to take a team-friendly contract because you root for the team. That’s fine! Just don’t try to turn it into some kind of moral argument.
I don’t think there’s much of a ethical dimension to his decision, but if I was feeling frisky I might argue the most compelling ethical impetus is to effectuate a wealth transfer away from James Dolan.
I know I said yesterday that if the Knicks can draft Filipowski they should do it without thinking too hard, but that Vecenie mock, in which they pass on Collier and Holmes to do so, is like my personal Monkey’s Paw scenario.
There’s something like 3 players worth more than the max this offseason:
(1) Siakam re-signed with Toronto
(2) LeBron likely re-signs with LA
(3) Paul George
There’s Detroit, Philly, and OKC who can sign a 39M+ deal with at least 2/3 (quite possibly all 3) not landing PG. Forget intrinsic value, it’s a player’s market this year and OG is the beneficiary.
Kris Middleton was making more money on that team and took more shots. OG and Jrue aren’t perfect analogues, but Jrue was something like the 20th highest paid player in the league after the Bucks traded for him and gave him a new deal.
This thread should be exhibit A whenever anybody wants to make an “E doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about” argument.
A major pet peeve of mine is when people don’t edit players when quoting them. Everyone repeats themselves, you don’t need to include all of it when you quote them.
This Udonis Haslem quote doesn’t need that last section.
In 2015 when Draymond signed his $16M/year extension, the cap was $63M and his contract was 25% of the cap. Next season, when OG’s next contract will take effect, the cap is projected to be $141M and 25% of that is $35.8M.
In 2021, when Jrue signed his current $33.7M/year extension, the cap was $101.1M and his contract was 33% of the cap. Next season, when OG’s next contract will take effect, the cap is projected to be $141M and 33% of that is $47M.
In 2019, when Porzingis signed his current $31.6M/year extension, the cap was $109M and his contract was 28% of the cap. Next season, when OG’s next contract will take effect, the cap is projected to be $141M and 28% of that is $40.8M.
So, I’m confused as to what the actual argument here is? Do certain posters here not understand how the salary cap works and that it rises every year? And that you can’t compare the salary in this year’s contract to the salary of a contract signed 5 or 10 years ago 1:1? Has anyone here even suggested we should max out OG?
OK, what I posted definitely wasn’t a moral argument. I was literally saying that there are long term benefits (financial and otherwise) outside of immediate money that a player should consider when taking a contract.
Lebron took less to go to Miami. Brunson apparently is willing to take less in order to help the team compete as well.
I won’t get into whether that is smart or not. If the Heat never win a title, Lebron probably regrets taking less. But Clyde has a broadcasting job with The Knicks until he dies because he was on two championship teams. Ewing and that gang never pay for a meal anywhere they go in the tri-state area. Do you think that’s the same for Marbury?
We’re a good team. The salary cap is a thing. A player who isn’t just thinking about their next paycheck can recognize the long term value in taking less in order to help the team compete. That isn’t a moral thing at all.
And that right there is an ethical argument. You’re saying since Dolan is a billionaire who inherited his money, OG should feel no remorse taking as big of a contract as possible.
You aren’t wrong but my argument wasn’t moral. Yours is.
Lakers hired Redick. Definitely not the safe choice, for either side.
When you said OG should “take a good deal and [not] try to fuck us by squeezing every fucking dollar you can out of your contract,” it kind of seemed like you were saying there was some kind of ethical obligation. I don’t know how else to interpret the suggestion that he shouldn’t “fuck us.”
If what you meant was that you think it would simply be objectively good for OG’s career to pass on money he can get, I mean, there are just too many wholly subjective factors at play to say something like that definitively. He might not want a podcast!
When was the last time a former player became a head coach without any previous coaching experience and it worked out? Kidd seems like he might have figured it out after two other coaching stops; Nash was a big nothing; Doc Rivers cost Orlando Tim Duncan. Is it Jerry West who became the Lakers head coach in 76?
I’ll miss JJ’s studio work, but I’m glad he’ll be out of the broadcast booth, at least for a couple months
Redick can be kind of insufferable but he does come across as a smart guy, so I won’t say it’s doomed. But…gotta think there are good reasons most successful coaches were assistants or whatever else first.
I’m not sure he did anything but hire good assistants and let them cook, but the Pacers were excellent under Larry Bird
Larry Bird was a very good coach. When Redick was first being floated, I saw someone somewhere say that the hit ratio is actually a lot higher for players who go directly to coaching, albeit with such a tiny sample size as to not have much predictive value. But I can’t remember who the other hits were. Magic Johnson bailed pretty quickly. Bill Russell was an instant success, but he had the advantage of coaching a fella by the name of Bill Russell.
Totally forgot about Bird.
Bird had a weird tenure, 4 years, all successful and then he was like fuck it I’m out
We’re a good team. The salary cap is a thing. A player who isn’t just thinking about their next paycheck can recognize the long term value in taking less in order to help the team compete. That isn’t a moral thing at all.
yes but your advice is poor because it refuses to come to terms with the incredibly low expected value and high variance an OG discount can contribute to the knicks’ chances of winning, and the very attenuated and varied benefits that might flow from that if it occurs. were there a liquid market for knicks five year futures, the tick difference between og taking $35m per year and his max would only be noticeable to pathetic fanatics like us. to compare that wispy, attenuated benefit to the extra, say, $40mm he gives up pretax and tell the man he is foolish or greedy for choosing the latter is ridiculous. not to mention that not all people have the same preferences and many of the so called perks like talking to bob myers on tv or getting comp’d at tao might be the sort of thing that some people give absolutely zero fucks about.
this idea that he should have “faith” in the gm or whatever is more scientology than reason. he should just do whatever he thinks the best deal is, and if he wants to consider his modest contribution to improving cap flexibility and his team prospects by a bit and whether it
nets him a podcast that’s ok. but it’s also highly rational to decide the money is a better bet! even if uncle leon comes through and uses the extra cap flexibility to add some tremendously useful backup 4 or whatever that wins the championship, OG might find out he watched it from afar after being marcus smarted to new orleans a year hence for the final piece.
If the team thinks there’s a legit chance that OG’s and Hartenstein’s contracts would put us at or above the 2nd apron the good thing is there’s an easy fix. Bojan’s contract isn’t guaranteed until the end of the month so we can just waive him. Waiving him makes it a little harder to put together a trade offer if a superstar demands a trade but I don’t think there’s much of a chance of that happening between now and the next trade deadline.
EDIT: And the ones most likely to shake loose are the 35 and up guys who can’t stay healthy out in LAC, LAL, and Miami.
one guy who rarely gets mentioned as straight off the griddle is avery johnson. but he was hired as an assistant in october just after retiring and was the head coach by march. dallas was 143-39 in his first 3 (2 plus) years.
Just because there’s space available doesn’t mean it’s being earmarked to max OG Anunoby.
I’m with you 100%.
He’s worth it as soon as he’s offered it.
He’s not worth it just because other teams have cap space. He’s not worth it because we went 20-3.
We made our bid. I trust it was fair. Don’t raise it until there is a higher one. At the end of the day we can offer him more than anyone else but we shouldn’t bid against ourselves.
Yes but if OG takes a little less and then iHart takes a little less. And then Brunson and Randle take a little less….suddenly it’s not just a little bit of money.
If every player squeezes us for the most they can possibly get and we give it to them, we will become capped a lot faster than if they don’t.
Why is this controversial? I’m not making a moral judgement on OG at all. Just saying…if he really wants to be on a contender, a little sacrifice could make the difference especially if other players also make that sacrifice. And whatever he “loses” not taking the most he can get could be made up IN THE LONG RUN if the team competes for a title (and especially if we end up winning one).
He has 10 years of playing ahead of him if he’s lucky. After that, he’s in mid 30’s to 40’s with 20 to 35 years of potential earning ahead of him. I’m sure he’ll have his opportunities either way but you can’t tell me that champions don’t have more opportunities post career.
To interject a little news, Randle claims he’s ahead of schedule on his rehab/recovery and says he’ll be ready by the start of the season.
As far as Reddick…why wouldn’t he take this job? It’s guaranteed money even if he’s fired after one year. He’s never coached in the NBA. Even if it goes horribly wrong, he’ll gain experience as a head coach of an NBA team (and get paid).
People thought Jason Kidd was a joke of a coach at first and now he just coached a team that got to the finals. There’s a learning curve on all of this. If Lebron throws him under the bus after a year, anyone with half a brain will realize there was only so much Reddick could do with that situation. Either way, he gets paid (which seems to be the theme of the thread today).
Seems like a misunderstanding of the lifetime earnings curve of a professional athlete
I don’t think anyone was questioning why Redick would take the job.
I appreciate you doing the homework I was too lazy to do. It really supports my argument, though. We all know Peak Draymond Green is better that OG Anunoby, right?
So if Peak Draymond of the Warriors Dynasty was worth 25% of the cap, and he sets the market for this type of special player, then my offer to OG would be ~22%, which is $31MM.
I suspect Leon offered him even more, and he wants to shop it around. So I say let him. Go find a team willing to pay your brittle ass significantly more than the guy who broke the mold, one of the greatest defensive players of the 21st century
With a bit of concern that I’ll melt ptmilo’s robot head, I’m surprised Swift didn’t mention winning as a motivation for taking a cut. I’d argue that’s not an altruistic (ethical, moral) motive (i.e., doing it for the team, or for NY, or the fans, or whatever) — many of these guys are psychotic competitors who want to win at all costs. It’s a personal thing. But ‘at all costs’ being sort of the point I’m making.
No idea what OG’s take on that is, and whether winning a chip in 2019 increased or decreased any drive he has in that regard. And it’s usually what old guys at the end of the line tend to go look for, after earning unbearable loads of cash, and OG is still fairly young and in the middle of his high-end earning potential. But just thought I’d throw it into the mix.
Sorry, ptmilo.
Edit: I see Swift actually sort of advanced that argument while I was typing. Although I think I said it better…
2021 Jrue Holiday: 3.4 bpm
2024 OG Anunoby: -0.1 bpm
These are not reasonable comps.
The current reduced version of Jrue is a reasonable comp for OG, though, and he just signed a contract a month ago that pays him $30MM.
Porzingis just signed a contract in July that pays him $30MM/year for two years.
This thread is a whiplash. My thoughts: the small benefits of overpaying OG by, say, $5m/year are vastly outweighed by the risk that he might just like Philly or OKC more than New York.
All three examples (Peak Draymond, Current Jrue, Current Porzingis) point to about the same sweet spot: $30-32MM. And we’re probably offering ~$35MM for the good will.
This for a guy with a 0.1 career BPM who has missed a whopping 1/3 of all his team’s games, has never been an all star, never made an All-NBA team, and whose only distinction is one 2nd team all defense nod.
And he wants to squeeze us for more? Fuck right off.
Shop around, OG. The Thunder might give you two years. You’re Philly’s 4th choice. Detroit isn’t looking for a $40MM 3-and-D wing.
At this point I hope OG gets 40m+ just so it pisses off a few people here.
Also OG is a free agent in 1 week, how does comparing his situation with players who signed extensions make sense unless were they also potential free agents at the time?
I just went by your original comparisons. If you feel that your original comparisons are poor that’s not an argument against everyone else’s argument.
But, for the record, Draymond is a great player but is also very unique. His value to a team with two of the greatest shooters of all time is different than his value to other teams that didn’t have two of the greatest shooters of all time.
Jrue is 34 years old and on the backend of his career. That’s not a valid comparison to a 26 year old.
Porzingis was dumped for nothing by Dallas and nothing by Washington the last two years. His value was at a nadir when he signed that extension.
Shams reporting Philly now are not strongly considering signing PG13…
caruso for giddey is a shocker
Damn.
Was just about to mention Woj tweeting Caruso for Giddey trade. The Yankees embarrassing themselves this past week has forced me to start paying more attention to the NBA offseason.
There is really no such thing as “very unique.” Something is either unique, or it is not. Something cannot be “more unique” than something else. 🙂
You’ve also failed to explain what plan B should be. We don’t get $35M+ to spend on another player.
Lol.
You didn’t, though. I compared OG to what Jrue and Porzingis will make next year. You compared them to previous points in time, specifically 2021 and 2019.
Caruso for Giddey has me going “WHUT DA HELL” at my computer like I’m Tim Robinson
Plan B is to raise our offer if someone beats ours.
We still have a 5th year trump card in our pocket that no one else has.
I’ve said this before but you need to learn how language works before you critique other people’s use of English. Slavish devotion to rules you learned when you were in grade school make you sound less intelligent, not more.
That’s a really good trade for both teams, I would argue. OKC needed a guy who maintains their defensive intensity and switchability, but can also shoot and doesn’t need the ball in his hands constantly to be effective. And Chicago needs to start over. Maybe Giddey doesn’t fit any better with White, but may as well try.
Okay, Hubert, so if Philly throws a max deal at OG and we match it (or top it with the fifth year), you’re okay with that? Just want to make sure of what everyone’s position is here.
Let me know when OG gets dumped for nothing two years in a row and then we can compare contacts.
Kerr is a smart guy who had no coaching experience and it worked out fine. Reddick strikes me a a smart guy in the same was Kerr is. The Lakers may not be successful, but I bet JJ isn’t going to be the reason. (Plus, the Lakers are always successful, so there’s that.)
Is Chicago finally blowing it up or will they somehow insist on competing another year?
My position is that I need proof or a confession before I believe any OG offer other than the one he winds up signing.
33 year old Jrue just turned in a season that trounced 26 year old OG’s finest year. I suspect he’ll continue doing that for many years.
Kerr was GM for Phoenix before he became a head coach.
Yes
Landing Caruso for Giddy is a huge plus for the Thunder. They are no longer thinking long term. They may have just become a solid favorite to come out of the tough west.
More importantly, what does this signal about the Bulls?
Are they finally ready to blow that team up and make a few other veterans available for trade?
Jrue Holiday:
– 1.7 DPM
– 1.7 EPM
OG:
– 2.66 DPM
– 3.1 EPM
Kerr’s front office experience is a big separator from Redick going from the booth to the bench.
As to Hubert’s Horatio Alger economic justice in America’s capital complex thesis, nobody in the world thinks that Jaylen Brown is the best basketball player alive. Jaylen Brown doesn’t think that, his mother doesn’t think that, his agent doesn’t think that, Brad Steven’s doesn’t think that. His being the highest paid athlete ever has nothing to do with justice or greatness or really anything other than being in the right place at the right time. Sure, OG’s not as good as Draymond Green. But, like it or not, he’s going to make more money playing basketball.
Maybe. But Kerr was a bad GM.
Bulls vets I want in order:
(1) DeRozan
(2) Lonzo Ball’s knees
(3) Vucevic
(4) LaVine
“Giddey,” not “Giddy.”
I didn’t learn about how to use the word “unique” correctly in grade school, or in any other level of school. I learned it by living life out in the world and by being a logical, thinking human being.
I told you all that we should go after Caruso, but I was rebuffed because “Caruso isn’t available.” Well, he actually *was* available, much in the way that Haliburton was available when he was traded to the Pacers, much in the way that Mikal Bridges is probably available, and much in the way that OG was available even though our team was suing his at the time of his acquisition. (Things turned out better for us by not acquiring Haliburton, most likely. I’m just pointing out that we need to be careful when stating categorically that a player cannot be acquired.)
Boy George and Squeeze are playing out here somewhere in the desert…
so what’s the current OG situation – are we waiting to see what happens with PG13?
DeRozan can’t be ahead in line of OG, can he?
dang, some one has isaiah listed as the best available big man this off-season…that’s not good 🙂
Meanwhile, for those not on Twitter, here’s what Shams said re: the Sixers and PG-13:
Could be posturing. Could be that their interest is shifting to Jimmy. Or Daryl could be intending to throw the whole bag at OG and see what happens.
What you are saying here is that there is no way to stay under the apron and no other moves possible to get under the apron.
I’m not a cap expert and I have no desire to become one. The rules change every few years and they don’t pay me to become one. But they do pay Leon and his team to become experts and to be creative.
If they want to keep OG (imo they have to or it would an epic disaster of a trade that would set us back monumentally more than overpaying him a little), then figure out a way to structure the deal or make other moves that keep us under and allow another trade using Bojan and another salary to upgrade.
That’s why they pay some people millions of dollars to run teams and others nothing to point out what we needs to happen if we want to contend on blogs. From what I gather, these possible apron issues are close. We can do this.
I can play the AIO game, too, EB:
Jrue: 2.1 BPM
OG: 0.6 BPM
It’s kind of pointless to seek out the ones that support our argument and ignore the ones that don’t.
not true, there are in fact degrees of uniqueness…you’re thinking of a light switch, not even a dimmer switch at that…
The Bulls are an astonishingly stupid team
I don’t know that there are different levels of uniqueness, but adjectives and adverbs should be usable to denote the size of the gap between 1 and 2 on the chart.
Oh, sorry for giving you the benefit of the doubt. I had assumed that someone had taught you incorrecty and could blame them. I’m so sad to learn that your inability to understand simple English stems from your own shortcomings and no one else’s.
Two differences, Donnie:
1. The Celtics gave him that extension after they brought in their final two pieces (Jrue & KP).
2. I believe a lot of teams would have maxed Jaylen Brown. I do not believe a single team wants to max OG.
Yes in the same way modern science believes in phlogiston
There is one very easy way and that’s to decline Bojan’s option next year. It’s not the ideal scenario but it is the easiest.
LOL
No, geo, there are definitely *not* degrees of uniqueness, and ThisChicanery is as similarly in error as you are. Unique simply means “one of a kind,” so one thing categorically cannot be any more one of a kind than any other thing…….not even by a degree. 🙂
hi bob, funny thing, when i think of literature i think of you now…
noticed your interest in literature (i guess reading just about medicine stuff wasn’t enough)…
is there a time period you’re most interesed in?
Sort of asking for “jumbo shrimp” on the menu 🙂
do like enjoy westerns – so i sez 😛
very very very unique, much much more unique, so incredibly unique…
you do not own this shit…man…
time period bob – any chance, pre-00 of the common era?
False. A thing which is unique is more unique than a thing which is not unique
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unique
They even discuss your specific issue.
Considering committing a (housing?) crime just so I can watch TNFH cook as my lawyer….
I love Caruso and he seems like a perfect fit in OKC. Never liked Giddey but I guess he was arrow up in the second half?
I feel like you have to give young players a little more time to work things out than you did before. But I still wouldn’t move all in on Giddey.
Presumably that is what they are doing, and OG’s response is “fuck your other moves, pay me every dime you have.”
Hence why some (mostly me) are annoyed with him.
Presti didn’t want to pay Josh Giddey long term so he flipped him into Caruso. Feels like a short term strategy win now move which means he’s likely to add more pieces. uggghhh
If people want to be pissed off because he MIGHT be trying to squeeze every last dollar out of us (if that’s even what is really happening) so be it. For all we know there are multiple deals be talked about right now (imo very likely) and the agreement with OG may hinge on what happens in those other deals and their cost which will then determine his contract.
IMHO the Knicks and OG are both fine with the money, but maybe not the incentives built into the contract (games and minutes).
That’s what the negotiation is more likely about.
i missed this above, didn’t i…wow – awesome, maybe even more awesome than just regular awesome – i don’t know, i think we all just need to figure stuff out on our own sometimes/most of the time/damn near all the time (with some input)…unless we can just all agree to agree to the shit that i agree to…
yeah, let’s do that…
see doogie, you’ve distracted me from real basketball…
that and i’m a bit worried for milo: don’t work so hard, remember to breathe, long on the exhale, smile, count to yourself, laugh, flex and unflex your body, get up and walk away from any electronical device…
yes, stop posting, go hug a tree…be well…
I think that is probably premature speculation.
I think it’s way more likely they agreed on a number (or at least a narrow range) before he was even traded here and they are negotiating the incentives related to his history of missing games. If we are going to pay him a lot, he has to play “x” games.
A thing that is unique is more unique than a thing that is not unique.
Unless you’re British, in which case whatever.
All NBA players are unique, but some NBA players are more unique than others.
this…and if you would have posted it a few days back would have saved a bunch of wasted keystrokes and having Doogie do his “unique” shtick..
That’s a big part of what I do around here, Strat
I love a good premature e-speculation
slogging through all the above has me hankerin’ for a “beeks” fart story…like …where’s clarence gonna rip one next?
Is a butterfly more of a butterfly than the caterpillar that becomes a butterfly?
I’m on the b train heading to a screening. Farting.
I’ve been wondering today whether colonoscopy prep could anchor a Clarence Beeks vehicle. Plenty of gas. And more!
hope they at least have the AC on in your car…
2 polyps this year… gone
It’s a nice car. You can texture the smell. Not unpleasant. Not pleasant.
speaking of colonoscopy prep…during the Euro soccer games…i’ve been seeing many of these “cologuard” commercials…seems like its a DIY colonoscopy…anyone tried that shit (no pun intended)?
Seems like a good trade for both sides. Giddey’s a nice fit next to White, and Caruso is getting a little old in the tooth, but he gives OKC some much-needed defense and veteran leadership.
Now if the Bulls can ship out LaVine without attaching a pick, I’ll be impressed.
howdy clarence, you also be well and all…breathe, well carefully anyways…
are you out and about commando style, or do you have some drawers on to dilute the CB experience a bit for others…
jj reddick to the lakers…i don’t know – they are not a deep team, the west has deeper, better teams ahead of them in the conference…
i don’t think the move much matters…
i get the sense the lakers are preparing to crater out very shortly…
so long oddball…
Hmmm… Geo, you’re a bright one. I’m wearing a thong, light khakis, and a graphic silk shirt. I’m dreading losing OG. dread. The thong was too expensive. But I like it. You wanna fight about it, Doogie?
Did it start out as a thong or is that the culmination of perpetually torrential flatulence?
that and i’m a bit worried for milo: don’t work so hard, remember to breathe, long on the exhale, smile, count to yourself, laugh, flex and unflex your body, get up and walk away from any electronical device…
yes, stop posting, go hug a tree…be well…
geo i almost hesitate to say that whatever sparked your wellness check is not in fact milo, afflicted. i haven’t worked an hour more than i’ve wanted to in fifteen years. i fear i’ve only made things worse.
just remember. for every patrick bateman there are a dozen guys who get genuinely excited about cardstock. just ask momma ihart.
Did it start out as a thong or is that the culmination of perpetually torrential flatulence?
I ran out of underwear I’ve been travelling the entire month.
https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/bulls-analysis/bulls-arturas-karnisovas-offseason-change/570880/
I was about to post this, Alan. Please let it be true.
Maybe this is 4D chess, but hear me out: if OG and the Knicks have always had an agreement, wouldn’t it make sense for them to act as if OG is available to try to give teams like Philly hope they could get him – and thus possibly preventing them from looking at other options? NBA free agency happens so quickly that getting too attached to a particular target may screw up your back up plans.
The CAA connection makes me suspicious of the negotiating through the media possibility here.
The league saw that dumb Giddey trade and all the GMs ran to their phones to call Karnisovas, that’s pretty funny
In somewhat Knicks-adjacent news, I was invited to MSG for a concert tonight and a round of two drinks costs $80 with tip.
gotta pay OG…
For those looking for an amusingly savage take on the Giddey trade, try this from The Bleacher Report:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10125542-grading-alex-caruso-josh-giddey-trade-between-chicago-bulls-okc-thunder
I actually think it’s a great deal for Chicago. Goddess is only 22 and Caruso is 30. Godfrey is already reasonably good at his position and will get better and is 6’8”. Caruso is very good on defense but is 30. He’s likely better now than in the future.
wow look at all that Doogie bait
OMG, it’s amazing what spell check did to “Giddey” without me noticing.
Did you tell the vendor “if you can find someone willing to pay $80 for two drinks, go find that sucker”?
Apparently Giddy is the new Alex Burkes.
I’ve got a little Miniver Cheevy in me as I like old stuff, Elizabethan stuff.
After reading the first few paragraphs of Julius Caesar as a freshman HS English student where Shakespeare has the cobbler say to the tribune, “Truly, sir, all that I live by is with the
awl…” I said to myself, this man is a bloody genius and I understand what all the hubbub was about. I was hooked.
John Donne’s A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning is another genius piece of work. It is pretty erotic for the early 17th century.
It seems incomprehensible that The Bulls couldn’t extract more out of OKC (or some other team) for a player like Alex Caruso.
That said, Giddey has lots of upside and he’s younger than like half the players who will be drafted next week. And if he were in this draft with his contract as is, he’d probably go 5-10…maybe even higher? At least you know that his floor is 1.5 BPM NBA rotation player. That isn’t true about a single player at the top of this draft not named Alex Sarr, imho. OTOH, you only have one year left on his rookie deal.
So maybe the best way to look at it is: would you have traded Alex Caruso for the 5th pick in this draft? Or vice versa?
Maybe if one sees Caruso as a Josh Hart-level player, it sort of makes sense. We traded a lottery-protected pick for Hart and some folks called it an overpay, but most felt it was a good deal for both sides, considering the circumstances. But still, I can’t believe that they couldn’t have gotten more had they waited, either from OKC or from someone else.
I read the bleacher report article. They could be right that Chicago didn’t get enough. But it’s still the right thing for Chicago to go after part of their future. It’s sort of like our trade with Detroit. The analysts loved it for NY but I still think that Grimes could be very useful for Detroit in the future in a way that Bogdanovic and Burks will not be.
Edit: This post crossed with Z-man’s. We seem to agree.
For those who believe in the whole FT% is a leading indicator of 3PT% thing, Giddey shot 80% from the line last year. All of his 2PT%, 3PT% and FT% have improved every year, plus he averages 9 Rebs and 7 Asts per 36.
It may have been a situational asset management mistake, but it’s also possible that Giddey is a much better investment for a rebuilding team than glitzier players like Cade or LaMelo.
One thing is for sure, though. I don’t think OKC could have gotten more for Giddey by himself than they did in this deal. Once again, kudos to Presti. You have to kind of squint to see the positives on Chicago’s side of the deal.
I’m trying not to get involved in the OG speculation because no one really knows what the parties are thinking or how it will turn out. I hope he signs with us and feel that it’s more likely that he will than not. Beyond that, I don’t really care much about what the final number is because, as they say, it is what it is.
Giddey isn’t awful, he’s young, he’s big for his position, he’s an excellent passer. . but he also just got played off the court in the playoffs and he’s got one year left on his rookie deal. Nobody is drafting 1 year of Josh Giddey in the high lottery.
Also, the Bulls really should tank for Cooper Flagg, and this move helps them with that goal.
Chicago has to uber tank this season as they owe their 2025 pick to SA top 10 protected. Giddey was horrid defensively vs Dallas. Bobby Marks just came up with the stat that when he was the primary defender vs Dallas his cover shot 60% from the field.
Giddey was terrific down the stretch for the Thunder, playoff struggles aside. He was horrendous at the outset of the season, struggled brutally in the first half, so the fact that he ended up with a 1.5 BPM should tell you how well he played at the end of the year.
It was a fair trade. The Bulls, who are miles away from contention, move a useful veteran piece for a guy who is only 22 and already quite a good and versatile player. Giddey stuffs the boxscore. He scores and he gets plenty of rebounds and assists.
Makes sense for both teams.