[ESPN] – Wed, 14 Feb 2024 00:02:00 GMT
- Sources: New York Knicks file protest after incorrect call
- Knicks filing protest with NBA to dispute Monday’s loss to Rockets
- Officials admit to wrong call on final play of Knicks’ loss to Rockets
- Report: Knicks Filing Protest of Loss vs. Rockets over Incorrect Brunson-Holiday Foul
- Knicks protesting loss vs. Rockets after official admits mistake on Jalen Brunson foul call, per report
[New York Post] – Wed, 14 Feb 2024 03:12:00 GMT
Knicks may be without four starters vs. Magic as injury situation worsens
[Posting and Toasting] – Tue, 13 Feb 2024 20:46:15 GMT
- Why Knicks fans should panic, and why they shouldnt
- Injuries threatening to turn biggest Knicks strength into lingering weakness
- The Knicks are being touted as contenders, but first they have to weather the storm of injuries
- New York Knicks vs. Houston Rockets Prediction, Preview, and Odds – 2-12-2024
- Knicks seeking answers amid 2-game skid despite plethora of injuries: Weve just got to figure it out
[New York Post] – Wed, 14 Feb 2024 08:19:00 GMT
Knicks’ Jalen Brunson taking a beating but are referees hosing him?
[SportsLine] – Wed, 14 Feb 2024 00:07:53 GMT
New York Knicks vs. Orlando Magic Odds, Betting Lines, Expert picks, Game Projections, DFS Projections and Player Prop Projections – Wednesday 02/14 16:00 PM
[Winners and Whiners] – Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:24:51 GMT
New York Knicks vs. Orlando Magic Prediction, Preview, and Odds – 2-14-2024
[Heavy.com] – Tue, 13 Feb 2024 17:26:19 GMT
Ex-Knicks Untouchable Quentin Grimes Breaks Silence on Trade to Pistons
82 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.02.14)”
Will repost here if anyone is interested…
tl;dr this draft is only “bad for the team’s drafting at the top. Givony and other experts consider it to be very deep.
Can’t they put a time limit on replays? The refs should get 90 seconds and no more. There are so many times that the call is obvious on one replay yet they stand around the monitor watching it from 20 angles and then debating the call amongst each other.
The interminable reviews just murder the flow of the game. Everyone hates them. It’s inexplicable that they haven’t regulated them yet.
How are the Kentucky prospects in this draft?
Aren’t we a Villanova team now?
Actually, Dillingham at Kentucky would be a perfect Quickly replacement, but he will probably go in the lottery at this rate.
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2024-nba-mock-draft-french-star-alex-sarr-goes-no-1-kentucky-has-two-players-in-top-four/amp/
^ this mock has him going 4th
I don’t see any Nova players on Tankathon’s big board. Time to punt!!
There aren’t any Old Testament names in the mock draft linked above (unless you count Isaiah Collier), so it‘s not going to be a good draft for the Knicks.
We’ve got four picks in the next draft. I currently see us listed in various places with Jaxson Robinson (SG/SF-BYU), Trey Alexander (PG/SG-Creighton), Oso Ighodaro (PF-Marquette), and Trevon Brazile (PF-Arkansas).
We won’t be able to get Rob Dillingham or Reed Sheppard from Kentucky, but we should be able to pull Aaron Bradshaw (PF), DJ Wagner (PG/SG), Justin Edwards (SG), Antonio Reeves (SG), and/or Zvonimir Ivisic (PF) from there.
We’ve got three: our first, Dallas’ first, Utah’s 2nd.
Masai managed to finagle the Detroit 2nd from us in the OG trade (which is why E believes we overpaid), and the Washington/Miami picks are too protected to convey.
We are in a great position to take three swings and we really need an injection of rookie talent. It would be great to see Leon ace this draft, or at least not do anything stupid.
LOL the Thunder have two late lottery picks this year (from Houston and Utah).
That mock draft has us taking some kid who just has “Africa” as a team right before the Nuggets take a kid from “Sweden”.
I see sites that show us currently having the 18th (Mavericks), 23rd (ours), 42nd (better of Jazz or Cavaliers), and 45th (Heat) picks. Don’t shoot the messenger. 🙂
I’m deeply resisting the urge to make a joke about the knicks will win the protest but, due to thibs minutes distribution, cause something catastrophic to happen by playing certain guys the full 5 minutes. Again — I’m not saying this or putting bad juju into the world. I’m merely expressing that I’m resisting the urge to do all of this sort of thing.
My best source for draft pick status is this, but I find it complicated to read. It seems to say we have three expected picks, two first round and one second round. If we actually end up drafting three players, that would be plenty of new young guys for next season.
https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knicks.htm
Fournier getting 13 points in 25 minutes means that he was, in fact, not useless to us.
Why not use a version of the FIFA model? – Coaches challenge NFL idea was a good version 1.0 but its time to improve. The challenge/call to action should come from a neutral orbiter NBA employee that is vested in gettig it right.
Here is a decent option for a 2.0 version. It doesn’t havbe to be perfect just better than what we already have. Version 3.0 in future will be determinted by AI.
During the first 43 minutes, keep things as is but in the last 5 minutes and score within 7 points, a booth referre directs the Crew Chief to review the film because there may be a blatant missed or wrong call made that effects the game result meangfully.
Crew Chief Referee alone looks at the flm and makes a determination if evidence is conculsive and overturns a bad call or makes a call that was missed.
Players get a 90 second rest…the drama level rises for the outcome and anticipation of next play…teams pay some bills…it just makes for great TV and could help rankings too.
Re: Draft – Just look at CAA or Rose Jr. client list…they will chose them.
No big surprise to most.
Evan Fournier played perfectly cromulent basketball for France in the FIBA World Cup something like six months ago.
Thibs exiled him to la maison bow-wow for Thibsian reasons, not basketball reasons. It is what it is. (*)
(*) What it is means we’re very likely to see way too much of Josh Hart this spring, but let’s cross that bridge when we come to it.
lol y’all are fucking hilarious sometimes.
Detroit lost by 14 and was down by 23 at the half. Fournier didn’t help them do shit.
I think it really is just as simple as Thibs knowing (in his mind, that is, I’m not saying that this is some objective truth) how to hide a weak power forward on defense, but not a wing. In other words, two good defensive wings and a rim-protecting center are such an important part of his defensive plan that when you don’t fit into that mold, it messes with him.
Bojan can be hidden at the 4, Fournier couldn’t.
That explains, Brian, why not playing him 98% of the time made sense.
It was the other 2% that was indefensible, i.e. the times where we desperately needed either a body or a shooter, and we kept Evan glued to the bench like he wasn’t even on the team.
Downside Deniers and Thibs True Believers insisted this was right. Fournier was too cooked to play even one minute of NBA basketball, they said.
Obviously they were wrong but Nick Nurse played Tyrese Maxey 42 minutes.
Everyone, except Z-Man. But he also likes snail races, trips to the DMV, and Andy Warhol’s Sleep.
Fournie was also -10 in the game in +/- and shot less than 50% from the field (4/9). He did have 4 rebounds, though, which is probably a career high for him!
Hubert, I am in no way defending Thibs on this, as I think what he did was borderline criminal and he might be deserving to be hauled in front of the Hague for it. But it always struck me that Fournier was a real rhythm player, and he never could adapt to being a short-minutes heat seeker. The few times he did play he seemed rushed, no surprise as this would be his three minutes to prove himself, and he’d clang a bunch. And then straight back to Siberia.
All eye test and surmise, but it seems that once Fournier was benched for extended time (and thank goodness given his defense), coming in for random short stretches wasn’t going to work.
But I also never felt like this was a binary choice. Part of being a manager of people is to find a way to make the various skill sets of your team work, including exploiting their talents and hiding their weaknesses. Thibs does many things well, but in too many cases this ain’t one of them.
Fournier shot like crap for us in every stretch of games he played. Maybe he was better in practice, but he wasn’t working out in games. Could be a Fournier thing, could be a Thibs thing.
Let’s wait a few games and see how it goes.
It’s Detroit, everybody has a terrible +/-
I’m sorry, are we really using a sub-50% raw fg% as a diss in 2024?
I don’t have the energy to do Evan Fournier litigation today so I will just say that the data made it very clear that the best version of this team did not feature him prominently, if at all.
Macri’s newsletter today echoed my steel man case for Thibs’ psychotic minutes distributions of late. The alternatives really are something akin to punting:
My position remains that once it became clear how decimated we were, something akin to punting would in fact have been the best strategy. We didn’t win the games anyway.
(1) Thibs is extremely talented in some (very important) ways, significantly flawed in other (very important) ways. It’s Leon’s job to understand and manage that.
(2) The data on Evan Fournier are path (Thibs)-dependent.
Good news is you don’t have to! No one said Fournier made us the best version of the team.
We just said he wasn’t useless.
Which means you’d have to prove Fournier was incapable of playing emergency minutes in the NBA to win this case. And you definitely don’t have the time to litigate that.
Deuce always comes in for Brunson, of course we’re worse when he’s in and our MVP candidate is on the bench. It’s kind of lazy analysis by Macri to say we can’t play him for Donte.
He could also put Burks in who had a shitty game overall but turned it around in the 2nd half when he was a +7.
We did in fact play Fournier “emergency minutes” after his benching.
Let’s wait 5 games before we litigate Evan Fournier, this could all end up moot
Just for the record, Deuce’s time on the court was with Bojan, Burks, Donte, and Precious. During his five minutes, he was 2-2. Yeah, he had a shitty on-off, and clearly it was entirely his fault.
#ShowDeuceLove
We won the first 3 after Randle and OG went down including a really close game against the Pacers. We’d have lost at least the Pacers game if Thibs didn’t play certain players so many minutes. We also won the Grizzlies game, another game that got close in the 4th. Out of all of those W’s, the only one that was probably guaranteed after everyone went down was Charlotte. We’d be looking at 1-7 over the last 8 games, as opposed to 4-4.
That’s a 3 game difference. We’re currently a half a game in front of Philly at 3.5 games in front of Indiana in the standings. Since one of those w’s was against the pacers, we’d be 6th right now and not 4th and we’d only be half a game of Miami for the 7th play in spot.
sorry…therapy day…i know you all don’t deserve this, drink/meal on me if we ever cross paths…
it just does not make any sense…to have a repetitive anxiety episode cycle occurring every 3 months or so…there’s nothing biological or scientifical to back something like that up…is it the diabetes, the thyroid, my immune system…a bad joke like job…
i’ve actively tried to preclude any kind of self-fulfilling stuff, been tracking it now for about 5 years though…like with RJ, after a while you just have to accept the data 🙂
did notice though that the normal mania state (it would be a stretch to call it euphoria, not too bad though) – doesn’t come around when i’m in these 6 to 8 week periods of heightened anxiety…once i’m over this current thing, i’ll look for that…i like the feeling of mania…being mad all the time is so tiresome…
can’t really watch the news, including sports news, need to be careful with when and what music i listen to, movies i watch…conversations i have…gotta schedule social interaction with folks…
i’ve been fortunate to verify with numerous sources that i have no current personality/mental disorders, no current injuries to the brain, that’s a big relief…just sky high anxiety/ptsd…good news, it is starting to look more like i’m not even really that obsessive or compulsive…trying hard not to get stuck on why me…
i’ve gotten good at controlling my breathing and heart rate (thanks always doc bob), what it feels like now – my mind feels like a vortex (trying so hard not to visualize a toilet bowl flushing, i’m pretty much stuck with the thought now though)…really hard to remember stuff, difficult to connect thoughts and words, it’s just swirling and moving really fast up there…
back to basketball, try to leave this annoying life interlude behind for a while…i hope you all are well…
I’m actually generally fine with Thibs’s general predilections; I mean, shit, I don’t really care all that much for defensive sieves like Evan either.
But when that winds up with Josh Hart and Quentin Grimes laying massive brick in major second-round minutes, a solid principle has been taken way too far.
In analytical terms, if you have a plan as Thibs does, and it silos off a lot of potential players, that’s a giveback. And then the power of your plan has to make up and more for all that giveback or you’ve only broke even. Not sure Thibs’s plan does tha.
okay, so most likely i’ll be watching the game tonight – hopefully won’t see isaiah or donte in a uniform…
needless to say – we are not favored this evening…
Further for the record: During Deuce’s exciting 5+ minutes:
Bojan was 1-4 with a turnover on top.
Burks was 0-1 with a turnover on top.
Donte was 0-1.
Precious didn’t shoot, but had yet another turnover.
And Deuce was 2-2, as mentioned.
After his last made shot, he was subbed out for Jalen 20 seconds later.
So maybe it was Miles’ fault after all…
Fournier’s career high in rebounds is 10.
Maybe Deuce is banged up too? He got absolutely destroyed by McConnell against Indy and Aaron Gordon had at least one blow by of Deuce in his short stint in Houston (though most of Holiday’s damage came against others). Uncharacteristic for him.
Yeah, but extranormal rebounds from a 2 or 3 are kind of like a green zebra.
Admittedly kind of unique and varied and eye-catching, but how about just the best plain-old white and black striped one you can find?
Punt.
Wow, the Warriors tried to trade for Lebron. That’s hilarious.
‘QUESTIONABLE’
Does 23 minutes also qualify as running someone into the ground?
Bogie strained his other calf in training camp and missed something like six weeks.
So did Morey!
I only posted Fournier’s career high in rebounds as being 10 in response to the comment that the four rebounds that he got last night was probably it for him.
I agree, but it can also be argued it goes even further back. Once you start pushing players to win that extra game by playing them 40+ minutes on back to backs and things like that, even if you win the game, when/if he eventually breaks down you lose games later.
I get people wanting to play players less and wave the white flag on games now in the hopes that people get back sooner. And this is a very weird stretch of injuries. Like I can’t remember a team going through something like this with this many players going down at once.
But I just bring up the wins thing over these last 8 games to bring up a point. There’s a risk to punting games. We’re currently the 4th seed. We go 1-7 instead of 4-4 over these last 8 games and we could potentially be the 6th seed and skating the line to the play-in.
There’s no guarantee we’d make those games up on the back end of the season even if everyone got healthy. I mean Randle, Mitch and OG…their timelines to return don’t change at all if DDV plays more or less minutes. We have the all star break so the dudes who are banged up but not out long term should be able to heal up during that week off.
Even if everyone comes back say within a week or two after the all star break, that doesn’t give the team a lot of time to gel. We can’t just assume that Randle and OG are going to seamlessly pick right up where they left off. We could be “full strength” but lose some of those games bc of rust, team vibes and rhythm being off, etc.
So winning every game we can now has a logic behind it. Because we went 4-4 and not 1-7, we have a little more breathing room than we would.
If the choice is a 6 seed at full strength or a 2 seed beset with injuries, it’s no contest for me.
We want Jacob!! We want Jacob!!
There is also an incredibly wide middle path between punting a game and treating it like game 7.
Take tonight, for instance. Rest all the injured guys, play Brunson and Burks 36 mins each in the backcourt with Deuce McBride getting the other 24.
You’re telling me you can’t win a game with the best player on the court getting 36 minutes?
That’s not punting it’s just sanity.
There’s some suspicious math here. When we beat Charlotte by 21, would we have lost if DDV played 30 minutes instead of 42?
In any event, we could be the damn #1 seed and it won’t mean a thing if we aren’t fully healthy. I recognize there’s nuance here–seeding can matter a lot and I don’t take it lightly. There just has to be a balance and I’d like to hear anyone argue with a straight face that Thibs is striking it properly right now.
dang, thibs broke bogey already…
maybe he sniffed that 40 minutes he was gonna play tonight, and opted out…
Thibs is being asked to manage the “sore” calf of a 35 year old dude who strained the other calf like four months ago and missed two months.
I don’t predict a happy ending here.
I did a bit on the only six times that a protest was actually upheld by the NBA.
https://popculturereferences.com/what-were-the-only-six-times-that-the-nba-upheld-a-protest/
anyone know what thibs’ practice protocols are like…
i wonder how much (percentage wise) they spend, on-court scrimmaging – is thibs’ the type to blow the whistle and try to teach every 30 seconds, or is it run run run…i don’t know…
how much therapy time, conditioning time…film study…
do they work while on the plane?
an announcer recently mentioned brandon ingram taking his nutritionist on the road…that kind of stunned me as to why the team didn’t have a nutritionist with planned meal schedule for players and coaches already…
i wonder what are the rules for a player in having to share physical data with the team…can they monitor their sleep, their bodies during training and conditioning sessions…can they send delivery service food to people’s door, even while on the road…that should be a yes…
i did think it was telling to listen to thibs describe OG’s situation: talk to the medical staff, they decide it all…
let us hope and pray leon has elevated our medical staff since his arrival…bad memories of derrick rose and lit noah…
This is awesome. Surprised I hadn’t seen a history of it elsewhere.
Seemingly the only time a call was reversed, rather than a ref acting without knowing the rules, was a buzzer beating tip-in from 1969.
Do you know if there was some misapplied rule for when the clock started or whether you were allowed to protest incorrect calls back then?
Bob Rakel claimed he heard the buzzer before the tip-in, despite the clock clearly still showing a second left, and the timekeeper saying he never hit the buzzer.
So I think the issue is that it wasn’t the referee’s judgment on whether the buzzer sounded or not. It either did or it didn’t, his judgement can’t overrule that.
Awesome little write up BC. I can’t believe the NBA jumped through all the scheduling and travel hoops necessary to replay 4 seconds…
That’s absolutely nuts.
I suppose you could also say the game ends when the clock runs out, not when the buzzer sounds. Even if he had heard the buzzer, it wouldn’t matter.
Just… what explanation other than rigging the game could there be? How do you hear a non-existent buzzer?
How much do 4 seconds of basketball tickets sell for?
Amusingly, I had totally forgotten that I had actually done an article years ago about a hilarious thing that happened when the “Phantom Buzzer” game was replayed.
https://legendsrevealed.com/sports/2015/05/06/what-was-the-strange-deja-vu-effect-of-the-nbas-phantom-buzzer-game/
Back then, you played your divisional opponents six times a season, so the Cavaliers were in Buffalo again just a couple of months later. I assume they just replayed the earlier game before the scheduled game that day.
And yep, from the New York Times, that’s exactly what happened from the Cavs/Braves game on February 1, 1972:
Thibs probably advocated for the protest in the hopes he could play a matinee and run his guys over 48min in a day.
“Everyone, except Z-Man. But he also likes snail races, trips to the DMV, and Andy Warhol’s Sleep.”
Three out of four ain’t bad…
My son just told me that there are some Knicks-themed Valentine’s Day memes out there. One features Thibs and says “Let’s go 48 minutes!”
it’s going to be hilarious if they make them get ready to play for a possible overtime and someone on the Rockets drains a shot and it’s over in 2 seconds
That’s quite interesting, Brian. Now, I have a question:
Isn’t this an issue of human error rather than the misapplication of rules? To me it is similar to a referee calling for a foul when a foul didn’t exist. Or looking at the replay and calling that the ball hadn’t left the shooter’s hands at the buzzer when it in fact had, for another example.
Didn’t the Knicks protest the game at Miami in 1998 claiming a clock malfunction or something about the guy operating the clock? I remember the next day Riley said something like if they want the damn win so much just give it to them.
I think the argument is that it was not human error to say that the game was over when it wasn’t over. The game is either over or it isn’t, and it wasn’t. That’s different from making the wrong call on whether a shot came after the buzzer or not. That’s human error. Saying the game was over when there was still a second left is beyond that.
Yeah, in that case, they couldn’t protest the human error of the ref saying the shot was too late, so they instead protested that the red light went off too early, which led to the ref making his erroneous call.
I suppose so, but in a pre-replay/review era, “I heard the buzzer before the shot” is a human call. It’s not like the referee was trying to claim that he could end the game before the buzzer (which would be the misapplication of the rule). For all intents and purposes he thought it was over. You could also argue that a foul is either a foul or isn’t.
Anyways, the Knicks are 100% going to lose this protest.
But the timekeeper pointed out that clearly the buzzer hadn’t gone off, and he demonstrated it by then releasing the time button and a second went off the clock and then the buzzer went off. Deciding a game on hearing a phantom buzzer seemed to be beyond the pale for the NBA.
Ha! Now Bogey is “questionable” for tonight.
iHart’s reason for his injury status is no longer sore achiles, but now it’s “left achilles; tendinopathy”
Does that mean anything different? An achilles is a tendon, right?
It’s more specific I guess? Idk
I’m pretty sure that’s an overuse injury too, someone correct me if I’m wrong
From sports health.com
My PTSD keeps referring to Dre Greenlaw who apparently had tendinitis, a more chronic condition, and tore the achilles tendon doing cat hops on the sideline at the Super Bowl.
Actually tendinitis is a more accute form of injury and get s over diagnosed. Tendinosis is more common. In tendinosis, the Achilles can look swollen but it disorganized tendon fibrils. Both can lead to tendon rupture. Here is an article I wrote for anyone interested https://takingthingsinstride.blogspot.com/2008/11/myth-and-matter-of-achilles-tendonitis.html