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65 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.02.08)”
I don’t know if Brian is going to post a separate trade deadline thread at some point, but let’s start the morning off with a multi-part Question of the Day:
1. What is your ideal, yet realistic, outcome for the Knicks at the deadline? (i.e., you can’t say that we trade Archie for Wemby, or Fournier for SGA)
2. What move or moves do you actually expect the team to make today?
3. Once again staying within the realm of realism, is there a trade the team might make today that would fill you with despair?
Discuss.
Only 8 hours remaining, what will Leon do?
Stay idle? Trade for a little improvement around the edges? Surprise all with a sneaky big move?
Let’s Go!
1. Malcolm Brogdon or Tyus Jones
2. Brown or Burks
3. Russell or Schroeder
I have a strong feeling that the trade deadline is going to come and go without a move.
I’m basing that feeling on the Deuce extension and the positive prognosis updates for Mitch and Randle.
I’d prefer a small move that a) keeps Grimes in the fold and b) doesn’t cost more than a single protected first. Brogdan, Brown, Burks, Jones, whoever….just no Clarkson.
I could live with a slight overpay for Murray (which is still well below ATL’s asking price.)
I really want no part of Clarkson. That would really bug me.
That is all!
My favored trade would be Fournier, one of our protected firsts (not the MIL 2025 pick) or either first from 2024, and maybe a second for Brogdan.
Any trade for Clarkson, or vastly overpaying for Murray (something like Fournier, Grimes and 2 unprotected picks plus more draft capital) would fill me with dispair. I doubt that they would do anything even more stupid than those two trades, so that’s pretty much it.
1. Being the third team in a D’Lo trade wherein we get D’Lo without having to give up much of anything. Sounds like this possibility is on life support, but it’s been mentioned enough to be “realistic.” Warts and all, I think D’Lo is the highest impact player we could potentially add without hampering our ability to swing a big trade in the future.
Close second: getting both Brown and Burks without giving up Grimes or any first except one of the middling ones e.g. the WAS pick or our own 2024 pick.
2. …I kinda think we wind up with both Brown and Burks, so I just hope the cost is something like I outlined above.
3. I do not want to watch Jordan Clarkson play basketball multiple times a week.
1. Brogdon if Grimes is not part of it–too early to dump Grimes.
2. Fournier going out–he deserves it given his silence since the season started.
3. Russell–undoes both the player chemistry and the FO/coach chemistry in one fell swoop.
1. Ideal = Brogdon
2. Expected = Brown
3. Despair = Clarkson
…Noble’s ideal is my despair. Haven’t disagreed with him to this extent since he nudged to the right on the pessimism-optimism continuum awhile back!
1. Brogdon. I’m also much more in favour of DJM than others on here if it’s Fournier, Grimes and 1 good 1rp or two middling ones. I’d also be happy with tyus. We’d have his bird rights so we could give him an 1+1 overpay to manage the contract rollover issue.
2. Brown (which I’d be fine with) or Burks (which I think is pretty meh).
3. Clarkson.
I have a suspicion we may end up doing nothing – our FO is very conservative on trades and wants to keep powder dry for the summer. I personally think that’s an error and I’d rather go bigger than do nothing – e.g DJM. Superstar trades are a crapshoot that often don’t work and if we think Mitch, Julius and OJ are back in time to gear up for the playoffs I think we can make real noise this year. Not chip noise but run a conference finals close noise.
He could have a good playoff game but I don’t think Deuce McBride can be one of the best players on the court in an NBA Finals. Nor do I think he can log 53 hyper efficient offensive minutes while going toe-to-toe with Giannis in a game 7.
There is a league within this league and Deuce just isn’t good enough for it. Josh Hart isn’t, either. Hell even Randle struggles in it. We know Bruce Brown can thrive there, though, and that’s what makes him decidedly not redundant.
(FWIW I think Grimes is good enough but this doesn’t seem to be his year.)
But if we solve the backup PG problem today, I think we make legitimate title-winning noise.
I have always liked Tyus. Tyus and Tillman would have worked for me. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
Three dark horse candidates that I would be okay with:
-Collin Sexton: I like his energy, his offensive game has come around, and he tries very hard on D although he’s clearly a downgrade over Deuce there. Only at a low price, which is highly unlikely, so whatever.
-PJ Washington: I doubt that Randle comes back at 100%, mainly because he uses that right shoulder as a battering ram. I think PJ is a better player than he has shown on a perennially shitty Hornets team. Again, the price has to be right, which it won’t be, so whatever.
-Marcus Smart: He’s out with a finger injury so the legs will be fresh and he will probably be energized playing for a winning team under a guy like Thibs. He’s a backup at this stage in his career but good enough offensively to help with our current problems. I don’t like the contract (and Memphis probably doesn’t either), and wouldn’t give up either Grimes or any quality first for him, but if it happened at a price of Fournier plus a pick I’d be intrigued. Again, probably no chance of it happening, but you never know!
I don’t get the love for Xavier Tillman. What does he bring that Precious doesn’t? He’s a good pickup for the Celts because their bench was so soft, but he would not help us at all. Even the depleted Grizzlies couldn’t find more than 20mpg for him, probably because he had a .440 TS%. Even Sims is better than him.
Tillman is the 2nd best defender in the league by EPM
Hubert’s doing yeoman’s work on the difference between the games (league) and real games (real league), though I have a couple tactical quibbles with application of the principle — I don’t think Quentin Grimes has shown he can play in the real league, in fact just the opposite; and there are still real questions about DDV. But that said, his comments “get it.”
In terms of the deadline, there remains one needle-mover for the team and that’s DJM. With everyone healthy, that team could go into TD “Garden” and beat even a healthy Celtics team in a Game 7.(*) I’d give up Grimes and two 1s without blinking. The window is now. Sometimes in sports and life there’s a time for action rather than indecision and waiting and for the Knicks, that time is now.
Some of the other players are ok, I guess, but none really move the needle significantly. I’m indifferent about them, really. A guy like a Bruce Brown is redundant, but then again if he were to take real game minutes from Hart and Grimes that’s a net win, just not IMO a fundamentally needle-moving net win.
(*) All this, of course, assumes that Julius will normalize himself in the playoffs — which very well might not happen. But as Z-Man counsels us, some things just have to be accepted as givens for now — Randle isn’t getting traded this deadline. But in reality, that’s a risk and one you have to take into account even when considering a DJM. If Randle is a perpetual bit-spitter in the real games, all bets are off and structural reconsideration a necessity. If it later comes out that the FO was close to making a move for a DJM but wanted to see Randle one more time in the playoffs before making that big a commitment, I’d be cool with that. (DJM is, of course, significant insurance against that IMO.)
“Tillman is the 2nd best defender in the league by EPM”
He is second to last in offensive EPM among players who have played at least 20MPG, and 426th out of 459 players overall. Max Strus and Dean Wade are among the league leaders in defensive EPM, so while Tillman is a good defensive player, I doubt that we’d notice the difference between him and Precious.
My favorite outcome would be a small move to bolster our bench that doesn’t give up Grimes. I don’t have an opinion on who that would be. I trust Rose to trade for someone who will help if he does do a trade.
My expectation is that nothing happens. I have read that there are more buyers than sellers at this deadline and suspect everyone useful will be overpriced and Rose won’t do anything.
I’m having a hard time finding an answer to number three because, as a long time Knicks fan, I have learned I have to enjoy small things since that’s all we get. I’ll still be a fan whatever happens, and thus not despairing (at least, not any more than normal).
My preference is for Brogdon because he’s close to what we need (a replacement for Quickley that we could keep longer term), but it sounds like he’s happy where he is.
I don’t see the point behind giving up a 1st for Brown or Clarkson. Neither is that good.
I’d be fine with Burks for some short term help as long as he comes very cheaply.
The goal here is to get better short and long term by filling specific needs. If we are bringing in short term re-enforcements to replace injured players it should probably come from the buy out market. We shouldn’t be giving up valuable pick assets (or Grimes) for short term rentals trying to win a few extra games.
You’re basing these things on effectively meaningless sample sizes. Meanwhile you gloss over things like Grimes playing with an injured shoulder and playing excellent defense. Basketball remains a 2-way sport.
Same goes for Murray, he’s a cold streak away from being a bad playoff performer — putting up a .538 TS% despite his hot shooting, his 2p% dipping below 50% in the playoffs. On top of which, he’s been somewhere between underwhelming and bad as a defender.
I agree 100%.
I just wanted to be clear that my personal hesitancy about the DDV signing was that his minutes were going to eat into Quickley’s (they did) and that it made it more likely Quickley was going to be included in any consolidation trade they eventually made (he was). As a big Quickley fan, I was unhappy with both prospects. But it ended fine because the consolidation trade landed OG. Had it been someone I’d be less thrilled about I probably would still be whining about it. 🙂
I didn’t comment on Murray in my previous note.
I don’t get why some Knicks fans are hot for that move. Yes, he’d be a terrific backup PG when Brunson is hurt and be able to run the 2nd unit effectively, but he’s not the floor spacer DDV is and I question whether his defense is as good as his reputation. Plus, he was brought into Atlanta to play next to another undersized ball dominant score first PG with questionable defense and it didn’t work. He’s better with the ball in his hands. It’s one thing to argue that overall he’d be a good addition, but the cost would be high and I think it would be an overpay for a less than perfect fit. If we are going to give up significant assets it should be for a player that is exactly what we need now and long term like OG.
As far as championship aspirations go, you could make an argument that Randle is our 5th best starter. Even as one of the worst all-NBA players and All-Star’s, that’s a good sign.
The argument is basically just EPM ranks him as our 4th best starter with Donte not far behind. Based on what Donte has shown recently, he could pass Randle with enough usage.
Even if you don’t buy the argument — it’s not the best — it’s interesting that Randle is one of our worst starters by the metric.
Tillman seems to have been acquired to be a 3rd string center. It’s a smart move for a team with Porzingis and Horford at C. But it’s not a significant deal. They got him to be their Jericho Sims.
Grimes, Fournier and 2 first for DJM. Then trade another first for Burks.
Then announce that Jalen’s ankle injury is more serious than initially thought and he’s going to need to “rest” for a month. Let DJM start during that time. Then have Brunson, Randle, OG and Mitch all come back the last 2 weeks of the season, play some games to shake off the rust. Move DJM to play super 6th man in the playoffs.
Brunson/DJM
DDV/McBride
OG/Burks
Randle/Precious
IHart/Mitch
Beat the Celtics in 7 and then the Nuggets in 7.
Hang the banner.
It’s why I’m lukewarm on him, but if he gets to Precious Achiuwa bad on offense he’s a nice asset.
I assume he played a lot as a PF next to JJJ, which kills spacing. On Boston his offensive issues will be muted and he’ll play next to the best shooting bigs in the league, if he plays at all.
Strat, while I agree with your concerns about DJM, I do think there is a difference btwn Trae and Jalen.
I mean, yes, both are undersized, both are ball dominant, both are also not great at defense.
But I think the difference is that Jalen did play off ball with Doncic and did quite well. Trae never played off ball with anyone, so it might just be that Trae was unwilling/unable to make that adjustment and not for nothing, I think Brunson is a smarter/less selfish player than Trae. You don’t see Brunson taking 3’s from the Logo with 22 seconds on the shot clock that often. Trae does that shit all the time. I just get the vibe that Brunson is the type of team first dude who would make it work with DJM and adjust to him and Trae doesn’t have that in him.
This isn’t me advocating for DJM. Despite my tongue and cheek post above, I’m very lukewarm to the idea mainly bc of the cost. But I think Jalen and Trae are different players. Even defensively, Jalen will sacrifice himself to take charges in order to compensate for his size.
In conclusion, Trae Young is a rat faced loser.
This is such a good point, and I hadn’t thought about this. Given how this type of shoulder injury is likely to recur without surgical repairs, this makes me quite scared for Randle. He does use that non-shooting shoulder in very physical ways.
@JakeLFischer
I suppose that’s…fine? Bogs’ contract is useful for the summer. I don’t think he’s that good, despite the shooting, but we can use NBA players right now. Could they be on a jet and suited to play the Mavs? The defense would be UGLY with Bogs on the floor though.
Edit: I hate this if Grimes is involved though (which he might need to be to make the salaries work).
One of the reasons Jalen came to NY was that he didn’t like playing off the ball next to Doncic because he felt it was stifling his productivity. I guess playing next to Murray wouldn’t be as bad.
I didn’t follow Trae’s career, but I saw him in a interview this year where he said he was very comfortable off the ball from when he was younger. That may have just been lip service.
I agree that Brunson is smarter.
Maybe I’m wrong on the fit, but it just doesn’t feel like the right move to give up a lot of assets for him.
I suppose they could avoid trading Grimes if they find someone to take Flynn (send him to Atlanta for Patty Mills, which was mentioned by the KFS guys).
Fournier, Jeffries, Arcie and Mills to Detroit
Flynn to Atlanta
Bogs and Burkeson to New York
(Somehow the ESPN Trade Machine thinks this removes 13 wins from the Pistons, lol).
1. Fournier and a first for Brogdon. If the weird Blazers want to keep Brogdon on their inexplicable roster, that’s fine I guess, but Brogdon meets all of our criteria: he can score, he can be the main initiator on a bench unit, his contract suits our needs, and he is the only mentioned trade candidate that is actually a GOOD 3pt shooter
2. I expect the team to make no move
3. I guess trading anything of value for Clarkson would be the absolute worst outcome, but my #2 scenario would also be dispiriting. If we get lucky and roll into the postseason fully healthy, or at least close to it, we could probably make some noise, but our bench is just too thin to make a really deep run in my opinion. “Thin” as in there are no good players on it.
I like the B&B rumour–makes allota sense–but very, very price dependent.
Robert Randolph is Tweeting a lot of “booms” this morning. Even a broken clock is right once in awhile.
Dunno how they make the contracts work in a trade for both Burks and Bojan.
Furkan’s trade request finally granted 🥲
Salary wise, Fournier and Archie or Sims to the Pistons with Evil Donte to a 3rd team works for Bojan and Burks. Obviously there’d be picks involved across the board too.
Ha! So is this the Sixers big move?
I could probably update my answer to #3 to include any trade where Grimes gets shipped out for ten cents.
That would be more disappointment than despair, though.
Robert Randolph is the rare broken clock set to a time that doesn’t exist. He says it’s 2:61. We don’t have to talk about him here at all.
Jazz trading Olynyk and Agbaji to the Raptors for filler and a 2024 pick. Mmkay. Guess Fischer got his wires crossed a bit re: the Jazz’ interest in Brown. Maybe this makes Toronto a little more willing to take a 2024 pick from us?
I’m still intrigued by a Dejounte move, although I don’t think it will happen. At this point, I’d be happy enough with Burks and trading zero 1sts.
Olynyk would’ve been a nice steal but sounds like that’s off the table. Also Sexton could be interesting but likely costs too much.
Kind of have no feelings about Brown. Don’t care either way as long as price is reasonable.
At least he was really good when he opened for Clapton at Jones beach the time I saw him. 😉
Looks like Fischer was somewhat right, but Brown wasn’t involved
Much as I hate to treat players (especially ones I root for) as assets, today that is what they are for me. Sims’ 2million salary is an asset that can plug a hole in a trade and his skills can likely be replaced efficiently post deadline.
Hopefully Jericho does not lurk here or god forbid post here.
Ideal trade: Brogdon, Murray at the right price
Expected outcome: Bruce Brown
Please no: Jordan Clarkson (unless he’s free), Gordon Hayward
Some less discussed moves I’d like: Delon Wright for a 2nd, Smart for Fournier, Kennard for Fournier.
Sounds like Hayward is being traded to OKC
That team should be looking to get a center
Is the trade deadline actually a bigger deal than the season itself..seems that way
During the regular season I think the level of importance goes
1. Trade Deadline
2. Christmas Game
Everything else
Is the trade deadline actually a bigger deal than the season itself..seems that way
According to at least one poster, most certainly.
But more accurately, it is as you say the most important day in the regular season. No other single day can affect teams’ play-off chances.
Ugh, we are trading Grimes for Burks? This is not what we want.
Ugh I hate this.
This is stupid, 🙁
Getting Bojan, too. What’s the pick cost going to be?
I think it’s minimal (just the two aforementioned second rounders), since Grimes is involved. For Detroit, getting Grimes is pretty good.
I think it’s one trade, Alan, so I’d assume the two seconds. Grimes is too much value as it is.
I will say this: Brunson, DDV, OG, Bogs, Center is a nice shooting lineup.
Bojan and Burks are middling players on the decline, you can’t give Grimes for that. Burks isn’t even a PG, if you give up Grimes because of our bench needs, at least get a PG.
For me, this trade represent one less player in our rotation during the playoffs, and I hoped we could have gotten one up.
On the positive side, they may actually make a first round draft pick this year.
So Deuce/Burks/Hart/Bojan/Precious as the backup unit until Mitch comes back? Can Bojan play the 3 after? Not convinced that lineup works defensively.
In terms of assets, they are just left with picks at this point. Not a single young player other teams would want. I wonder how that affects a star trade.
I swear, this star trade better be an amazing star trade, as Leon is clearly obsessive about it, so let’s hope for his sake that someone like Mitchell is actually available this offseason.
Sixers get Buddy Hield and Mavs get Daniel Gafford. I would have liked to get Gafford.
And now that Alec Burks is a Knick again, all of you guys who pretended to be idiots who didn’t know how to spell his first and last names suddenly know how to spell them again. Nice!
ESPN:
“Knicks, Pistons connect for six-player deal
New York Knicks get:
F Bojan Bogdanovic
G Alec Burks
Detroit Pistons get:
G Evan Fournier
G Malachi Flynn
G Quentin Grimes
G Ryan Arcidiacono
Two second-round picks”
Way too much to give up for those two guys. And I hope Jalen signed off on Arcidiacono heading out.
We’ll remember the Arcidiacono Days fondly. Dude never scored a point for us in 20 games.
And good for Evan Fournier. I’m not a Thibs “hater,” but there have definitely been games where he should have played Fournier, despite his limitations.
Prediction: Fournier scores 23 points (9-of-11 from the field, 5-of-6 from 3) in 22 minutes off the bench in his first game for the Pistons. Imagine the uproar ’round here.
Interesting.
Initial thoughts:
Bad – Grimes gone. youth movement officially over for now.
Good – still have all our firsts. Burks is a solid scorer and can play PG off the bench. He knows the system, decent defender, Thibs trusts him, good veteran, etc. He is much more consistent than Grimes. Bogan will be useful for us during this time we’re dealing with the injuries, maybe won’t play in the playoffs.
Pistons will cut Ryan and he’ll probably be back on the roster next season, lol. Too bad he won’t get a ring though. 🙂
Is there another move to be made or no?
Overall, it’s a meh move but not horrible. Probably helps us in the short term as we’re sending out one rotation player and getting back 2.
Bojan, not Bogan. Unless you meant Bogdan, in which case it’s Bogdan.
Probably best to stick with “Bogs” for you guys. That’s probably what Clyde will do.