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58 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.08.14)”
“Daryl Morey is a liar and I will never be a part of an organization that he’s a part of.”
— James Harden to a group of kids lol
Was waiting for the new post to mention this. Here’s the full video: https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1691039343186456576
Very much a scorpion and frog situation happening with the Sixers right now. Oof.
Meanwhile, Seth Partnow’s tiers series started today, and three of our guys made Tier 5: https://theathletic.com/4747170/2023/08/14/nba-player-tiers-klay-thompson-jordan-poole/
Curious to see where Mitch, Julius, and, especially, Brunson wind up ranking.
Last few years it isn’t an NBA offseason if Harden isn’t beefing with a team or POBO/GM. I’m going to make some popcorns and enjoy it! 😀
I just don’t want to ever hear any Harden to Knicks talk.
Thanks for the link.
All 3 are our shooting guards: RJ, Grimes and IQ.
There are 125 players, or an average of 4 players per team in the NBA. While I’m curious to see where Brunson and Randle land. I wonder if Mitch made the list at all or not.
I sense a lot of people are blaming Harden for his impasse with the Sixers, but he’s now the second player under contract to refuse to play for them (the first was Simmons). I wouldn’t be so sure he’s in the wrong.
Wherever Jalen Brunson ranks I’d count on him surpassing it.
During the Miami series I noted often that he did not get a whistle. Suddenly in the 4Q of game 6 he went to the line 7 times. Maybe that was a fluke or a coincidence. I believe that was the beginning of his respect from the refs, and I think that’s going to take him to an even higher level this year.
I don’t know, Simmons issue seemed to be more about his teammates / coach, which were probably backed by Morey, but still it was not directed towards Morey. This is clearly towards the GM.
In any case, I would add Butler to the list of players who wanted out of a perceptually good situation in Philly. There is something about the franchise that does not work. Butler seems to have Embiid in high esteem, but maybe having everyone catering to him bothers the rest of players.
E’s favorite day of the year!!
Maybe Hart is on the list too
Poeltl & Capela both made the list and at least this past year Mitch beat both by EPM, but his 3yr RAPM is far behind. Perhaps the publicity of him destroying the Cavs has him up a tier.
Look at IQ’s numbers and compare them to every other guard in the list and tell me how Partnow’s rankings are good for anything but clicks.
I suspect not. The intro talks about how he docks players for being bad at their positional specialty: i.e., big men who don’t defend well, or wings who can’t/don’t shoot. But Hart is so good at literally everything else that I wouldn’t be shocked to see him in Tier 4.
And I feel very confident that Mitch will be on the list. He’s that good defensively.
I did the exact same thing!
It’s ridiculous. I think it was Gary Payton II & Capela who were close by the metrics, but Capela is boosted by previous years plus being a center while Payton isn’t a great shooter.
IQ and Grimes in the same tier is a bozo ranking
No idea how this Harden situation ends. The CBA swiftly sanctions genuine holdouts, which is why most players just vaguely threaten it or show up and make things unpleasant.
It doesn’t seem like Harden really thought this through. For all the talk about player empowerment, it still seems like there only a few guys in the league who can fully dictate their situation regardless of contract status. Harden is definitely still good, but decidedly not someone 30 teams would absolutely love to have. Dame can pull it off because the Heat actually do want to move heaven and Earth for him, whereas the Clippers are drawing the line at Terence Mann, a 27 year-old who averaged 8.8 PPG, for Harden.
In any event, chaos in Philly is good for the Knicks for a very obvious, very large reason.
I do appreciate Seth putting RJ in Tier 5 in a valiant but failed effort to stop Knicks fans from getting mad at him
Macri has a good piece today about the logistics of extending, and possibly trading, IQ. Personally, I hope we extend him even if doing so makes trading him more difficult, because I do not want to trade him.
Obviously there’s always a potential deal that makes sense, but I wouldn’t object to holding firm against including him in basically any realistic deal. He is already good, has gotten better every year, and is one of the most fun players the team has had since I became fan.
Trade RJ instead.
Harden is such a weird player at this age on an expiring contract.
He led the entire league in assists last year while being handcuffed by Doc. Went off twice against Boston for 40+ for Ws in the playoffs. Not exactly a scrub although he still folds in elimination games. For that we have plenty of ‘Nova DNA on the roster.
For me, – RJ + Fournier + two of those conditional picks works just fine for Harden + PJ Tucker.
Harden Brunson backcourt would certainly be something, i suppose
This was a brilliant move and timing. James is a chess player.
Woj got the leak and then he made the statement.
Harden is in China talking up his business book and calling Morey a liar that has no business leading an NBA organization. This is music to CCP ears. He definitely chose his words carefully and repeated it for special effect.
IQ has to be getting severely downgraded based on his playoff struggle because that’s clearly way too low based on his regular season contributions.
Nice analysis, I love it when people reveal the big picture like this. Thanks.
thenamestam, you are correct. In Seth’s article he says”… playoff competitiveness is relatively more important than regular season production.”
James Harden is certainly something else…
burn it to the ground jimmie 🔥
good note director nyc…James Harden is really something else…kind of a clever guy…
Sure, but IQ is like 30th in the stats while Keldon Johnson is like 300th and in the same tier
Yeah don’t get me wrong, playoff performance definitely should be weighted significantly, but A. I don’t think there’s any structural issue with how IQ’s game should translate to the playoffs, and now that he has some experience under his belt he’ll be better equipped for next time (I think for lead ballhandlers there can be a particularly significant learning curve in the postseason; look at how Brunson’s first playoffs went in Dallas) and B. there’s some guys in that tier who just aren’t very good at all so even if you’re marking down IQ quite a bit he should still be higher imo.
I don’t think they intend to trade RJ, but if they do at least his value is rising, perhaps rapidly after playing well in the playoffs and in FIBA World Cup.
I suspect more people pay attention to how you perform on the big stage as opposed to some random Tuesday ay MSG where your were 2-14 with 5 TOs.
IMO Quickley is underrated by almost everyone other than other players. I see what seems to be sincere praise when other players talk about him, but I’m not sure the basketball media and fans fully appreciate him yet (other than Knicks fans).
Count me out on Harden.
I’d rather stay the course in terms of age. I want guys at or approaching their peak in order to maximize any window we have with this group. Randle (28) is more or less the oldest I’m interested in. Embiid at 29 would be OK.
I actually disagree that NBA front offices will care more about his FIBA World Cup performance than his NBA performance.
Oooh. I don’t blame him or even care. What I said holds. I don’t want him anywhere near the Knicks. Kyrie, Duran, Harden & Ben Simmons are my 4 least favorite players in the NBA. I don’t want them anywhere near this team.
Indeed, Roberto Duran (whether or not he did ever actually say “no mas” against Sugar Ray) was a horrific NBA player. And Duran Duran was even worse.
There’s a nice bit in the ringer from a week ago about how the market has seemingly wised up on Tyler Herro.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/8/7/23819588/tyler-herro-ceiling-miami-heat-damian-lillard-trade
Here’s hoping this holds up. It would be robbery to him to be the centerpiece of a Lillard trade.
You may be right.
I think there are so many NBA players among the best teams in FIBA these days (like Canada) and it’s getting such wide coverage in the basketball media, everyone that matters is paying attention and at a minimum saw the headlines about RJ’s game yesterday (same with Brunson). They know it’s not the same level of competition as the NBA among the weaker countries, but they see RJ hitting his open 3s, making some really tough shots going to the basket while defended well, and that he has been very clutch. It’s going to create a carryover effect from the favorable grades he was getting for his playoff performance “if” he keeps it up.
Good reasons for the Knicks to trade for James Harden:
1) He’s a lefty.
Bad reasons for the Knicks
to trade for James Harden:
1) everything else.
Herro’s valuation is kind of weird.
When people were high on him I was a bit skeptical of what he was adding because his defense was so atrocious. Now I think he is developing into a solid offensive player and isn’t quite as extreme a liability on defense. I’d say on a net basis he’s a clear plus player. Yet now other people are skeptical. Hmmmn. He’s obviously not anywhere near Lillard’s level, but imo you could do worse than having Herro on your team at 23 and getting better.
That’s a fine assessment, strat. But do you think he’s worth two firsts? That’s what the Heat seem to need for him.
Portland already has Scoot, Simons, and Sharpe. They don’t want Herro. The trade hinges on their ability to flip him for two firsts and it seems like the market has definitively said no to that, which is great.
Herro is better than Simons (and younger to boot). Why not just take Herro and dump Simons for the picks?
I don’t think Simons can get you much on the market after signing his extension.
Portland would end up with Herro, two unprotected firsts, Kyle Lowry, and the chance to flip Simons… for Damian Lillard. That would be highway robbery.
Four unprotected firsts seems to be the threshold (rightly so). The Heat only have two. They were banking on Herro yielding two more but that ain’t happening.
It kinda feels like Pat Riley is in the same position Leon was in last year when he was trying to get Mitchell. His offer isn’t good enough, but he’s banking on it being the best. With Miami’s luck, it will probably work.
I think it depends on where the picks are likely to be made.
Valuing picks is not a strength of mine.
He was drafted 14th. Just for discussion purposes let’s say he’s a bit better than the average player selected 14th (maybe 8th-10th?).
I’d say if you gave up two 1st round picks in the low to mid 20s you’d be giving up similar value. But you’d have to be pretty sure they are going to be picks in the 20s. So maybe a very good young team that needs scoring could give up 2 lottery protected 1st round picks expecting them to be in the mid to low 20s. Worst case they’d at least be lottery protected if injuries or something crazy happened. But you’d also need a player like Herro or why bother.
Portland doesn’t want picks in the mid 20s for Dame Lillard.
You’ve taken this in a different direction. Does Herro have value? Sure. But it isn’t the kind of value needed to complete a Dame trade.
I cannot tell you all how much fun it is to watch a division rival implode on my 37th birthday. The Nets already mortgaged their future on nothing, so they’re taken care of. Celtics? What’s up, y’all?
A 3 team trade with Lillard and Harden rotating and the 3rd team sending picks to Portland may just make too much sense. Not sure how Miami ends up with Lillard in that scenario, but Lillard in Philadelphia would be a great for people who like fun basketball.
What’s up, old man? Congrats for making that far. Celebrating in any particular way? A chocolate maple bacon donut perhaps?
As for the Celts, they gave up their rock for a damaged diva. A team just filled with divas. Dangerous divas, but still.
man, I have ray-bans older than that…
plus 100 though on being a leo…roar on 🦁
I remember spending my 37th birthday hoping for the Knicks to win their arbitration case over their Bird rights to Jeremy Lin. (i.e. the Beginning of the End for me and the Knicks.)
“I actually disagree that NBA front offices will care more about his FIBA World Cup performance than his NBA performance.”
You never know. For example, there was an NBA front office that cared more about a 3-on-3 workout than an entire year of college data…
There is a lot I am looking forward to this upcoming season, but nothing more compelling that the interplay between KB RJ stans vs. haterz…
“I remember spending my 37th birthday hoping for the Knicks to win their arbitration case over their Bird rights to Jeremy Lin. (i.e. the Beginning of the End for me and the Knicks.)”
I would never trust the recollections of a 37th birtheday of a has-been former POBO currently in assisted living
What a strange off-season 2012 was yet it lead to a 54 win regular season.
I don’t know if there are any RJ haters. Just a bunch of us who don’t believe he has much upside. I mean, it would be great if he was consistently ok. I would totally take that.
“There is a lot I am looking forward to this upcoming season, but nothing more compelling that the interplay between KB RJ stans vs. haterz…”
Few things would make me happier than to move from the haterz to the stans team. But I have to say, even watching that FIBA clip from a day or two ago, a lot of those ‘drive left’ moves felt like they would have ended up in the third row against a legitimate NBA center, just like always…
But hope springs eternal. If a bunch of kids can beat the state of Montana for ruining their futures over climate change, then RJ Barrett can improve.
When I watch RJ’s Canada highlights it looks like he’s bullying Fiba players in a way he can’t in the NBA.
A lot of those layups through contact are getting swatted in the NBA.
I’m not entirely sold on Johannes Voigtmann and Andreas Obst as NBA All-Defense talent
EDIT: Raven beat me to it
I remain on the fence about RJ. I like a lot about him and he’s only just turned 23. He’s got hurdles to overcome in the realm of consistency, but I am cautiously optimistic that there’s a solid NBA starter in there somewhere and that we will see that guy emerge this year. But this FIBA stuff is largely irrelevant.
I am more hopeful than some of you about RJ’s FIBA performance. It’s true he’s bullying FIBA players and getting by them, but he’s finishing cleanly too, sometime with spectacular bank shots (judging from the highlights). In the NBA, part of his poor efficiency was lack of finishing even though he got to the hoop. The data is very limited, but if he can finish better now that’s a good sign.
“In the NBA, part of his poor efficiency was lack of finishing even though he got to the hoop.”
I agree with this, mainly based on my own eye test data, both on TV and in person. Even if true, he does seem to get lots of shots blocked and strongly contested as well.
I like that he’s continually working with Drew Hanlen, who seems very smart in defining the best areas for leverage in improving one’s efficiency. And there are things he’s doing in FIBA that are consistent with what Hanlen described in the recently posted interview, e.g using his strength and more basic moves to create driving lanes rather than working on creating more wiggle, shooting short jumpers and floaters better so that he is less predictable in attacking the rim.
I’m optimistic about what he showed finishing-wise, his touch looks much better and it absolutely could translate.
But finishing when you get to your spot, move through the guy, and don’t have your shot altered isn’t the same. I can finish pretty easily over my 6’4″ friends and most other people, but when my 6’6″ friend shows up with his 7’+ wingspan, suddenly I’m making a lot more mid-air adjustments that clang against the rim or get outright swatted.
I don’t trust it until we see it against NBA competition, and I doubt GMs do either. I’m not saying it won’t translate, just that it’s hard to buy without more proof.