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Knicks Morning News (2023.06.28)

  • LeBron James’ former teammate was livid with the Knicks fans for hating on him on draft night- “F**k y’all for booing me” – Sportskeeda
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 28, 2023 4:00:00 AM

    LeBron James’ former teammate was livid with the Knicks fans for hating on him on draft night- “F**k y’all for booing me”  Sportskeeda

  • Trades: Knicks Land Raptors’ OG Anunoby In Proposal – NBA Analysis Network
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 11:43:59 PM

    Trades: Knicks Land Raptors’ OG Anunoby In Proposal  NBA Analysis Network

  • 761 Days After Being Spit On by a Knicks Fan, Trae Young Finally Addresses the Infamous NBA Incident – EssentiallySports
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 9:10:00 PM

    761 Days After Being Spit On by a Knicks Fan, Trae Young Finally Addresses the Infamous NBA Incident  EssentiallySports

  • Liberty’s Ex Connecticut Stars Burn Sun at Mohegan – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 8:54:20 PM

    Liberty’s Ex Connecticut Stars Burn Sun at Mohegan  Sports Illustrated

  • Donte DiVincenzo would be perfect Knicks fit in NBA free agency: ‘Plays his ass off’ – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 8:41:00 PM

    Donte DiVincenzo would be perfect Knicks fit in NBA free agency: ‘Plays his ass off’  New York Post

  • Tiki & Tierney: Does signing Jacob Toppin mean the Knicks are … – WFAN
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 5:35:06 PM

    Tiki & Tierney: Does signing Jacob Toppin mean the Knicks are …  WFAN

  • Gio & Jerry: Should the Knicks look at trading for Damian Lillard? – WFAN
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 5:00:50 PM

    Gio & Jerry: Should the Knicks look at trading for Damian Lillard?  WFAN

  • Knicks Go Winner Zozos Arrives Hot in Hanshin – BloodHorse.com
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 4:14:00 PM

    Knicks Go Winner Zozos Arrives Hot in Hanshin  BloodHorse.com

  • Knicks could make strong push for 76ers superstar – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 4:05:36 PM

    Knicks could make strong push for 76ers superstar  Empire Sports Media

  • Why Did The New York Knicks And Josh Hart Extend His Player Option Deadline? – Forbes
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 4:05:17 PM

    Why Did The New York Knicks And Josh Hart Extend His Player Option Deadline?  Forbes

  • Knicks Rumors: Donte DiVincenzo Linked as Possible FA Target amid T-Wolves Buzz – Bleacher Report
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 3:58:19 PM

    Knicks Rumors: Donte DiVincenzo Linked as Possible FA Target amid T-Wolves Buzz  Bleacher Report

  • Towns in the City? Knicks Swap Randle for KAT in Trade Idea – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 2:31:34 PM

    Towns in the City? Knicks Swap Randle for KAT in Trade Idea  Sports Illustrated

  • 3 shooters the Knicks could target in free agency – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 1:36:43 PM

    3 shooters the Knicks could target in free agency  Empire Sports Media

  • Growing noise about Donte DiVincenzo possibly joining the Knicks – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 1:32:22 PM

    Growing noise about Donte DiVincenzo possibly joining the Knicks  Posting and Toasting

  • Can a reunion be nearing for Derrick Rose and the Chicago Bulls? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 1:31:10 PM

    Can a reunion be nearing for Derrick Rose and the Chicago Bulls?  Sports Illustrated

  • What do Knicks have in two-way rookie Jaylen Martin? – AMNY
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 12:58:34 PM

    What do Knicks have in two-way rookie Jaylen Martin?  AMNY

  • Who says no? Evaluating your Knicks trade proposals – The Athletic
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 12:53:52 PM

    Who says no? Evaluating your Knicks trade proposals  The Athletic

  • NBA Rumors: Knicks-Villanova chatter grows hotter as free agency nears – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 12:30:58 PM

    NBA Rumors: Knicks-Villanova chatter grows hotter as free agency nears  Daily Knicks

  • NBA rumors: Knicks linked to Donte DiVincenzo in free agency – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 11:59:27 AM

    NBA rumors: Knicks linked to Donte DiVincenzo in free agency  ClutchPoints

  • EXCLUSIVE: Knicks Legend Walt ‘Clyde’ Frazier Talks Future – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 11:30:00 AM

    EXCLUSIVE: Knicks Legend Walt ‘Clyde’ Frazier Talks Future  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks, Clippers Trade Idea: Paul George from LA to New York? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 11:26:50 AM

    Knicks, Clippers Trade Idea: Paul George from LA to New York?  Sports Illustrated

  • Could Knicks make a run at OG Anunoby after agency switch? – AMNY
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 11:26:07 AM

    Could Knicks make a run at OG Anunoby after agency switch?  AMNY

  • Knicks: 2 trade destinations for Obi Toppin this off-season – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 10:18:40 AM

    Knicks: 2 trade destinations for Obi Toppin this off-season  Empire Sports Media

  • Seth Curry among names Knicks will consider in free agency – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 10:16:10 AM

    Seth Curry among names Knicks will consider in free agency  Posting and Toasting

  • Knicks News: Potential trade target leaves Klutch, Clippers like RJ … – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 10:00:16 AM

    Knicks News: Potential trade target leaves Klutch, Clippers like RJ …  Daily Knicks

  • Knicks Season Review: Centers – The Knicks Wall
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 9:15:49 AM

    Knicks Season Review: Centers  The Knicks Wall

  • Knicks, Pacers Named Possible Trade Suitors For Gordon Hayward – NBA Analysis Network
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 9:10:38 AM

    Knicks, Pacers Named Possible Trade Suitors For Gordon Hayward  NBA Analysis Network

  • Knicks Shouldn’t Pursue Clippers’ Paul George amid Latest NBA Trade Rumors – Bleacher Report
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, June 27, 2023 8:06:11 AM

    Knicks Shouldn’t Pursue Clippers’ Paul George amid Latest NBA Trade Rumors  Bleacher Report

  • 95 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.06.28)”

    I seldom look at the Knicks morning news headlines, hardly ever click on a title…but I liked the article on Clyde.

    Confirming that he is raring to go makes the off-season a success, regardless of whatever else does or does not transpire.

    Windhorst is implying some serious things are up in Cleveland, and people are connecting the dots to Spida soils so many public things in NYC over the last couple of days. So we could be heading for a rerun of last summer, which would be nuts.

    So your question of the day is a variation of what I’ve asked before: Knowing what we know now about how great Brunson is, and how close we are to contention if we can bring in another star, would you give up the full package (RJ, IQ, many many picks) for Donovan Mitchell?

    It still seems an imperfect fit on defense, and we’d still need a good long wing. But we saw in Dallas that Brunson could be terrific playing alongside another ball dominant guard, and it would definitively make Julius the third option on offense, and the age is good for our timeline, and Mitchell doesn’t have the concerns about either durability or whether he’s a player who helps a team win. I’d have to seriously think about that.

    I don’t know that the price would be commensurate to what Cleveland gave up to Utah – I would say we are in a much different place in terms of leverage especially since Mitchell has one less year on his contract and has made it super obvious that he wants to come to NY (although technically I guess Cleveland could try and get BKN to get into the bidding). Our “desperation” is also less given we were a 2nd round team even without him and that we have a clear star in house in Brunson.

    The Divincenzo noise definitely meshes well with the idea of a big consolidation trade…as others have said, you have to figure that there would be minutes promised if we signed him, and currently there are very few minutes to be had.

    Hmmm – RJ+IQ+Obi + some number of picks for Mitchell + Dean Wade?
    IQ slides into Mitchell’s minutes, RJ plays the 3 for them…

    We then sign DD and our rotation =

    Starters: Brunson / Mitchell / Grimes / Randle / Mitch
    Bench: DD, Hart, Wade, Hartenstein, Deuce

    we’d be very small on defense but that starting lineup would be great offensively.

    Re: Mitchell on defense – does anyone know whether he only looks bad against Brunson (who makes everyone look bad) or was he mostly ok there? I mean, Cleveland had a great defense despite needing to cover for both him and Garland.

    It would be REALLY funny if we ended up with Donovan.

    It is an imperfect fit. BUT, Mitchell is an elite offensive player for sure. And you could stagger Brunson and Mitchell’s minutes some so that one of them is ALWAYS on the court.

    I offer RJ, Obi and 4 picks. I do not offer Grimes or IQ but maybe I save them for an OG trade?

    Our leverage and position is much stronger than it was last summer.

    But again, he is not a perfect fit right now, which is why I don’t go all in on a Mitchell trade.

    Nothing has changed in my opinion since last summer: Mitchell is a great player, worth the cost, and absolutely the wrong fit on this team. Not a move we should make.

    We need a great 3. Period. That’s the move. If there’s no way to get one, oh well – let’s hope RJ defies the odds and becomes good. But Mitchell isn’t the answer. Or The Answer.

    I would do the Frank trade. The issue last year was that we still needed another very good player in addition to Mitchell and the trade likely (and in fact in hindsight would have) depleted assets to get that other player. Brunson is that other player.

    For Leon, RJ and IQ become expendable, he keeps Julius (which I think was always his preference), he snags a “star” whose downside can be fixed by or blamed on coaching, and the number of picks is not an issue since he values them pretty much only as trade assets.

    We need a great 3. Period.

    You are right.

    Mitchell is a fun idea though.

    I don’t know. Maybe just holding on to RJ IS the move. He’s 22. He’s gotten bigger and stronger and could be settling into his adult body and at the end of the day…he just has to become a decent 3 point shooter. That is it. And he has been decent at times. If he can fix that, the world opens up for him. Not to be an elite player but to be a good one. We just need him to become a good player. His defense will improve. It almost always does for players in this league. And he’s still ONLY 22.

    To a lesser degree same with Grimes. Same with IQ. Same with McBride and Sims. I still think Mitch could improve. Players don’t just stop improving once they’re 23.

    We got all this youth on our team. Yes, the payroll is going to go up once we pay Hart and IQ and that locks us in to some degree. But one thing about Leon I think we can all agree on. He has been pretty damn good about contracts that he’s given out. Brunson’s contract was a steal. Randle’s is great value. Mitch’s is great value. iHart picked up for next to nothing. RJ’s contract could be a good value if he becomes even an average player.

    I know people may not trust Leon to draft well or manage our picks well or make a good trade for a star. But he has done VERY well with contracts. So I trust he can resign Hart and IQ to deals that are favorable and fair. As long as that happens, yes we’re locked in for the time being but no one on this team will be unmovable when we get into the last year or two of their contract.

    Maybe that’s mezzanine thinking. But fuck it. The view from the mezzanine is quite nice. Especially after years of living in a studio basement apartment with no windows. And it’s a much shorter trip to the penthouse from the mezzanine, too.

    Also, “locking in” on the current team allows everyone to just relax and know that no one is going anywhere for awhile (except maybe Obi, lol).

    It allows the players and coaches to really just focus on what’s important. The game.

    With Brunson having a true breakout year and Randle bouncing back, you definitely need to reconsider the trade.

    Defense is going to be iffy, but it was our defense that carried us in the playoffs. So maybe it’s not as much of a problem as the regular season made it look.

    I could see Cleveland valuing Toppin if they eventually want to play Mobley at C to give them more spacing. RJ, Grimes, or IQ would make sense. Even Fournier could get some burn if he doesn’t completely suck again

    Think long and hard about whether you want Spida in a Knicks uniform playing playoff games the way he has (at least) the last two years. He was terrible last year — and it wasn’t because of Josh Hart’s defense. He was worse two years ago.

    I agree that getting a 3 is the move. I’m just not sure there is a great, or even very good, 3 who’s available for a price (in $$ and/or assets) we’d feel comfortable paying. Whereas Spida is a great talent who also is durable, is relatively young, is from New York, has helped teams win, etc. No, it’s not ideal defensively to run out a Brunson/Mitchell backcourt, and the starting lineup Frank proposed would be awfully small from 1-3. And, yes, Mitchell’s defensive issues were mitigated by Cleveland starting two rim-protecting big men, while Julius isn’t that even when he’s engaged on defense.

    I just don’t believe we’re going to find a perfect fit. The perfect fit is either Jimmy Butler or Mikal Bridges, and they’re not coming here. Everyone else you discuss is flawed in some way, be it health, talent, or both, and many of them would still cost us roughly what we’d need to trade for Spida. You get him, you see if you can muddle through with some combo of Grimes, Hart, and DiVincenzo at the 3, all of whom are substantially better than what Cleveland put out there this past season.

    The issue last year was that we still needed another very good player in addition to Mitchell and the trade likely (and in fact in hindsight would have) depleted assets to get that other player. Brunson is that other player.

    This, to me, is it. At the time, the Mitchell trade didn’t make much sense because we thought he would be the first star in the door, and we wouldn’t have enough ammo to get a second one. But Brunson is the other star. Damn the torpedoes, I say.

    Swifty, where you and I disagree is not in your analysis of trading versus staying pat, but rather what I see as the reality: Leon’s plan is to trade for a star and the new CBA shortens the optimal window to trade for a star. And I think he is risk averse enough (and player-friendly enough) not to do a blockbuster once the season is underway.

    So every time I see a rumour about a star’s possible availability I view a trade not from the trade or stay pat prism, but from the trade for him now versus trade for someone else before training camp prism.

    What inevitably happens with the trade-for-a-star “strategy” is you wind up settling. Unless you wind up failing.

    Think long and hard about whether you want Spida in a Knicks uniform playing playoff games the way he has (at least) the last two years.

    In the two playoffs before, DMitch had a 7.8 & 9.5 BPM. He led the playoffs in OBPM one year with 9.3.

    In the two most recent years he still had a much better playoff BPM than RJ’s so called great run.

    Small samples of course, but the problem in the playoffs was our offense, not our defense. IQ was hurt, Julius was hurt etc etc but bottom line this is what it looked like:

    Brunson OFF court -> ORtg 79.6, DRtg 98 (-18.4)
    Brunson ON court –> ORtg 115.8, DRtg 110.2 (+5.6)

    It’s just inarguable that we need more offensive juice, and that Julius is not that juice — at least not against playoff defenses.

    So if Paul George is available and it doesn’t cost too much, I’d be fine with that plan.

    If Mitchell is available, I’d be fine with that plan.

    Thibs has his warts and all — and the biggest wart is probably that he needs star talent on offense to score — but I have pretty strong faith that he can cobble together a reasonable defense barring having to play people like Fournier and Kemba together at once.

    Man it is kinda nuts that Donovan has been doing all these events with Spike Lee and Allan Houston.

    I just can’t imagine a Brunson-Spida defensive backcourt. I know Mitchell is good, but they might put too much strain on Mitch defensively.

    We are in a very tough position. It’s virtually impossible to trade Randle for equal value. RJ has been terrible except for his playoff stint. And Obi has been badly miscast in his role.

    Quickley, a guy you’d rather keep because of his work ethic, is probably the only trade chip we have that could bring back a third “star.”

    So we probably have to roll with this lineup until a star demands a trade and then pounce. I don’t see Spida doing that, but if he did, you’d have to at least consider it, depending on the price.

    Hmmm – RJ+IQ+Obi + some number of picks for Mitchell + Dean Wade?
    IQ slides into Mitchell’s minutes, RJ plays the 3 for them…

    We then sign DD and our rotation =

    Starters: Brunson / Mitchell / Grimes / Randle / Mitch
    Bench: DD, Hart, Wade, Hartenstein, Deuce

    Call me crazy, but I’m not sure we’d be in a better long term position on a net basis with that deal.

    Mitchell’s impact = overrated
    Quickley’s impact = underrated

    Getting RJ out of the lineup adds value, but he’s young and going to keep inching forward.

    I was against Mitchell last year and I’m still against it.

    I’m also still against LaVine now.

    Believe me, I get the urgency of trying to do something before some salaries start coming due and we lose flexibility, but I’d rather overpay for a young player that fits a need, fits our timeline, and clearly make us better on both sides now and long term than make a mediocre move because we feel like we have to do something now. If it takes multiple moves to accomplish what I’m asking for, that’s harder, but I’m fine with it.

    Leon Rose,

    It’s time you earn your pay. No moves that will make headlines but not get us a where we need to be.

    Signed,

    Strat (9:55 AM and sober)

    Mitchell would have been a great pickup for this team BEFORE Brunson. Now that we have Brunson and have seen what he can do with the keys for a full season, there is no need to add another nearly 6’2″ ball dominant guard. No shade on Mitchell- dude’s a baller. If you wanna take the next step and not handcuff your future flexibility, then RJ/Deuce/Fournier/Milwaukee pick for George and whatever makes the salaries work, and then signing DD since Burks is off the table are the moves to make this offseason. Oh..and of course retaining Hart lol. I know many here are not fans of PG’s knee and age, but we don’t have to pay him. In 2 years time, he’s off our books and we can look to draft his replacement before then. That lineup has our best defenders at the most crucial spots and still allows us to have offensive punch and diversity. It’s a more than solid option- other than running it back and adding DD

    I know many here are not fans of PG’s knee and age, but we don’t have to pay him. In 2 years time, he’s off our books and we can look to draft his replacement before then.

    I don’t like the idea of giving up youth and picks for a very short window. I don’t think it’s a good long term idea and the short term upside is not large enough when he’s probably 50-50 to even be healthy for a playoff run or two.

    He also wants an extension. To me, a George extension would be so crazy Isiah Thomas might do a double take. If they do that, I’m out.

    i’m not sure what windy said but i wouldn’t read too much in what likely is bait… mitchell is from ny.. is a baseball fan.. grew up playing baseball.. father worked for the mets….

    whatever mitchell’s motivations might be… he’s in cleveland for at least another year and cleveland isn’t giving him up for just picks given where they are on the win curve… maybe you could work out a 3 teamer and cleveland gets like lavine or something but a direct 1 to 1 with the knicks is unrealistic….

    Director, Hartenstein in not on the initial 18-man roster they submitted.

    We are going to make a consolidation trade. It’s simply going to happen, and almost certainly within the next two seasons. We’re not hitting the second apron with this roster plus or minus a few tweaks, even if it breaks Swifty’s heart.

    That means every potential trade should be analyzed under a “is this the best consolidation opportunity that will be available in the next two seasons” framework, not a “is this trade perfect for us in every way” framework.

    With all the normal caveats about how we have to have a BATNA, I think there’s a chance Mitchell is the best consolidation opportunity.

    The defense in the backcourt would be…less than ideal, but the Cavs trotted out a dual 6’1″ backcourt with Mitchell too and their defense was excellent, even in the playoffs against us. We can make it work provided we keep the other Mitchell, I think.

    Mitchell also provided strong proof of concept as an off-ball player this season, posting career numbers playing primarily as a shooting guard.

    There are very few players in the NBA who can post a 6.3 BPM (I will be ignoring all responses about the flaws of AIO metrics because I know them all, I am using a reasonably good shorthand for overall player quality instead of writing 1,000 words about all of the things Mitchell does well) and we’d be crazy to turn our noses at the opportunity to get someone who can.

    I would probably do the Frank trade, though I’d try to get them to bite on Grimes instead of IQ.

    I don’t mind keeping the powder dry, but you can only do that for so long. We could have as many as 4 first round picks this coming year (probably NYK/DAL but possibly (unlikely) also WAS/DET also) – and as soon as those picks convey, they lose value. If we make those picks, it’s unlikely those players will be helpful on the during the current timeline (ie. they won’t contribute to winning for 2-3 years most likely, if at all). The longer we wait, the less time we have with Julius and Brunson on below-market contracts, and the closer Grimes / IQ are to having real $ contracts.

    So yes – we shouldn’t throw our assets at something really suboptimal, but we don’t have forever to use these assets either.

    PG is a better fit, but has much less future value if it doesn’t go well due to age/injuries.

    Donovan is a worse fit, but even if it blows up in 2 years, he will have S&T value since he’ll still be just 27 or 28.

    Looking at the list of SFs by ESPN RPM (just as a list, not as a single arbiter of value):

    Tatum – not available
    Lebron – not available
    Franz Wagner not available
    Jimmy Butler- not available
    Kawhi Leonard – probably not available
    Kuzma – available but only in S&T and fits poorly
    MPJ – not available
    Scottie Barnes – not available
    Cam Johnson – RFA, definitely not coming here
    OG Anunoby – I remain a fan
    Mikal Bridges – not available to us
    Harrison Barnes – FA but probably best as a 4
    Derozan – no thank you
    Bogdanovic – probably available, but prob also not what we need
    Marcus Morris – no thanks, better as 4
    Jerami Grant – not available to us
    Herb Jones – interesting possibility, prob not good enough shooter
    Dillon Brooks – lol
    Kedlon Johnson – not available
    Brandon Ingram – not available to us
    etc

    There just aren’t that many opportunities, especially is you’re looking for 16 game players, not 82 game players.

    If it’s just a “we have to consolidate, we have a short window” thing, George is a much better option than Spida.

    Agree PG is a better fit that Mitchell

    But as Brooklyn showed with their failed 3-headed monster, you can still salvage value out of a bad situation if the outgoing players are still with trade value… I just worry that if we trade for PG and it’s 2 more 40 game seasons, he’ll have very little trade value at the end of it.

    I’d add this small caveat to Mitchell–if he is available I would want to know why. I assume he is a good locker room guy, having thought the Gobert rift more on Gobert. He seemed to gel with Garland, I remember him deferring to Darius when Darius exploded against us in one of the play-off games. Just want to make sure there is not a pattern.

    I hate your questions Alan 🙂

    Anyhow, I was against the Spida move (at that price) last year, let me see what has changed 12 months later:

    – He is a year older
    – He’s a year closer to his next max contract

    And what hasn’t changed:

    – He’s a terrible fit with Brunson
    – He’s still a LOSER

    So I keep my former opinion.

    Doing multiple replies in one post. Let’s see how this goes!

    If it’s just a “we have to consolidate, we have a short window” thing, George is a much better option than Spida.

    It’s not that we have a short window to contend, E. It’s that we have a short window to consolidate. And the downside on PG13 is far greater, I would argue, than the downside on Spida.

    I hate your questions Alan 🙂

    [Extremely fake Jimmy McNulty voice] What the fuck did I do?

    – He’s a terrible fit with Brunson

    Why? Mitchell played very well next to Garland this year, and Garland’s a guy who has the ball in his hands a ton. Similarly, Brunson was awfully good playing next to one of the most ball-dominant players in the entire NBA in Luka. I firmly believe they could make it work on offense, and not just in a my-turn/your-turn way.

    – He’s still a LOSER

    He hasn’t played great the last two postseasons, though in both cases it was opposite a guy who would now be his teammate. But are we forgetting how incredible he was in several of his previous playoff runs in Utah? He singlehandedly carried that team at times, and was the centerpiece of one of the best NBA offenses we’ve had over the last decade.

    He is not perfect. But I would argue he is substantially less imperfect than any other option that is likely to be available to us between now and when we’ll hit the second apron from Brunson and Randle extensions alone.

    Strat- I can dig it. I’m just looking at the market and trying to figure out the best and most likely way to improve for the coming season without screwing the books. Plus moving on from Deuce- as tough as that is- and bringing in a cheaper 3rd point guard(which we can easily do) gives Quickley more of a surety in his role as THE only backup point. And when PG needs a day off or gets banged up and Hart has to take his minutes, it will give Quickley more run at both guard spots. As the Knicks starting SF, PG will get the easiest 20-plus ppg that he’s ever gotten. And he’s not a selfish player as well.

    All that being said, I’m ok with running it back and seeing what RJ does to mesh better with Randle too. If that’s not working, then we have to make a decision on which player to move at the deadline. Even that seems like just as big of a risk as trading for George. The Clips like RJ, so we shouldn’t have to give up a ton of assets. 2 young players not named Grimes or Quickley and a first for the right to decide whether or not to extend George should be enough. I’m pretty the Clips are sick of having both stars sidelined all the time.

    At some point we have to make a move that says we want to move up in the rankings. I’d just like for it not to be a big name for the sake of it being a big name. SGA would be really nice, but with the roster construction OKC has, I have no clue who’d they want from us outside of Grimes or Quickley

    The fact that IQ seems to be included in the majority of these hypothetical packages for a star tells me that the Knick’s ‘treasure trove’ of picks isn’t valued that highly by other teams due to all the onerous protections and uncertainty about when they will be delivered. And/Or that RJ still doesn’t have much value despite his less-than-max contract and recent playoffs performance. Either way, the idea that the Knicks could trade for a star and still have enough ammo left over for another big trade is not looking like a good bet.

    If the Knicks are serious about competing, it doesn’t make much sense to send out a young, improving player who was *this close* to being 6MOTY, even if they’re able to replace him with DiVincenzo. A trade for Mitchell is going to put an enormous amount of pressure on Grimes, Hart, and Mitch to clean up the myriad of defensive issues a Spida-Brunson backcourt creates.

    RJ + picks (no IQ) for an upgrade at the 3 seems like the best option if the goal is to get to the finals. Count me out on this proposed Mitchell deal.

    So every time I see a rumour about a star’s possible availability I view a trade not from the trade or stay pat prism, but from the trade for him now versus trade for someone else before training camp prism.

    I get this. But I really come from a team building and team culture perspective. I think its VERY important. And I think recently we’ve seen a lot of examples of how overpaying for faux stars who don’t fit well or even putting together super teams with 3 stars and a bunch of scrubs…that blows up in team’s faces more often than it works.

    And the NBA has A LOT of parity right now. We’re in an era where a different team has won the title the last 5 times and only two teams (golden state and miami) have gone back to the finals more than once in the last 5 years. I honestly believe tweaks around the edges, incremental improvements from our youngsters and continuity that allow the team to get better at execution on both ends of the floor could be enough to take us to the next level.

    Why? Mitchell played very well next to Garland this year, and Garland’s a guy who has the ball in his hands a ton. Similarly, Brunson was awfully good playing next to one of the most ball-dominant players in the entire NBA in Luka. I firmly believe they could make it work on offense, and not just in a my-turn/your-turn way.

    Come on, the bad fit isn’t on offense but on defense (and you know it) where our best defending starter (Grimes) would go to the bench to accomodata Spida…
    And Garland is a better defender than Brunson.

    he is substantially less imperfect than any other option that is likely to be available to us between now and when we’ll hit the second apron from Brunson and Randle extensions alone.

    If in the summer of 2025 we’ll be still here worrying about Julius Randle next extension, something has gone really wrong…

    Strong disagree that PG presents a better consolidation opportunity unless the price is pretty drastically cheaper.

    He’s definitely a better fit, but at this point he’s probably a worse overall player (EPM has it much closer than BPM, but still advantage Mitchell) and his age makes it unlikely we can flip him for value if/when things go haywire.

    I’d much rather have a legit 3+ year window with Mitchell.

    This is starting lineup I want. It will defend at a high level, score well, have better spacing, a little more size at SF, and retain upside over the next few years.

    1. Brunson
    2. Quickley
    3. Anunby (Hunter consolation prize if you think injuries have held him back)
    4. Randle
    5. Mitch

    Bench

    1. Backup PG that can score a bit and use Quickley with the 2nd unit at times like we used RJ last year
    2. Hart
    3. Grimes
    4. Obi
    5. Hart

    I’m going to say the craziest thing I’ve said on the forum for awhile.

    I think Quickley might become the best two way player on the team. I think his impact is wildly underrated by everyone in NY now because he’s not a #1 or #2 option. But most #1 and #2 options are average or a negative on defense (LaVine, Mitchell). If they aren’t, they are elite superstars. We don’t have a player like that. That’s top 5 in the league.

    Quickley can be a 3rd option, make plays, get some extra rebounds, shoot from outside, he’s high IQ, and is a significant plus on defense. He’s also young and getting better. He wants to be a starter and get paid. Pay that man his money! If Grimes takes a huge step forward in season 3 and outplays Quickley on offense, that’s a great problem to have.

    The major (and only) problem we have is at SF. That’s where we have to upgrade. RJ has been a negative on both sides and kills space. He’s probably going to get better, but I don’t want to bet our future on it. If we can upgrade now and retain upside with a young player do it.

    Just freaking overpay for OG Anunoby. Send RJ and the picks they want.

    Last point.

    If we trade Quickley, I am very likely to bet the “under” on the Knicks and the “over” on whoever we trade him to.

    Grimes would most likely be starting at SF, Max.

    So undersized PG, undersized SG and undersized SF?
    Good!

    I knew I shouldn’t have come here today after hearing Windy’s drug-induced bit on twitter… 😀

    going all-in is super risky… and i’ve come to the realization that it’s not the right move if it’s not a top 10 player in the league… there’s just too much risk around the roster and what would be left to be doign that..

    if you have lebron.. if you have booker and KD.. if you have KD and kyrie… if you have great young core players that could one day be on that level.. then yes going all-in makes a lot of sense.. you’re pot committed and you’re going to be picking really low…

    if you don’t have that kind of roster… it becomes much more risky.. randle has been inconsistent his whole career… and about to be over the age 30 hump… brunson is great but relying on a damian lillard version of him is a much different question…. everyone else is a huge question mark…

    i mean minnesota had a much better collection of young talent and went all-in and see how that turned out… that’s how risky this stuff is… and i know all the cool kids are doing it but our roster is just not on that level nor do we have the trajectory and certainty that it will continue.. out of all the teams that went all-in we’d probably have the worst and most uncertain future outlook…

    that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do anything… and if giannis or embiid comes on the market you backup the truck for those guys no question… but you can still imrpove while keeping your picks… and there’s a lot of daylight between what mitchell would command and what someone like Lavine or equivalent would… and that’s why something like that makes a lot more sense…. even tho Lavine is a much worse player….

    So undersized PG, undersized SG and undersized SF?
    Good!

    Obviously this is why we got Jacob Toppin 😉

    Some latest rumors from Marc Stein’s just delivered newsletter:

    – strong feeling that the Rockets want to sign VanVleet (who shot just 39.3% from the field this past season and 34.2% on 3-pointers) to a max two-year deal projected at $83.6 million.

    – James Harden increasingly projected to return to Philadelphia on a two- or three-year contract

    – strong belief that Jakob Poeltl is poised to re-sign with Toronto in the $20 million range annually whether or not VanVleet stays.

    – league sources say that Milwaukee is indeed in a promising position when it comes to re-signing both Khris Middleton and Brook Lopez.

    Of all these, FVV potential offer left me speechless (if you take away his stats against the Knicks his overall numbers are even worse)

    I think Quickley might become the best two way player on the team.

    I am 100 percent with you on this. If we don’t resign Quickley and trade him we are going to regret it for years to come.

    Here’s the thing. He made a huge leap in year 3. He is a great two way player. And if he can make that kind of a leap in year 3, there’s probably another leap in him coming in the next year or two.

    And yes, he’s not “big” but a Brunson/IQ backcourt works a lot better defensively than say a Brunson/Mitchell or Lavine backcourt.

    We drafted him. We’ve developed him. We need to keep him. If we let him go, we will rue the day. Just because we “messed up” on the RJ extension doesn’t mean we should mess up again and not pay IQ. RJ is still young enough that his contract may not be too bad to move if it comes to that.

    Of all these, FVV potential offer left me speechless (if you take away his stats against the Knicks his overall numbers are even worse)

    🙂

    strong feeling that the Rockets want to sign VanVleet (who shot just 39.3% from the field this past season and 34.2% on 3-pointers) to a max two-year deal projected at $83.6 million.

    I think that basically just gets Houston to the salary floor. For 2 years it’s not going to interfere with any long-term plans.

    Given what a deal for PG or DM would likely cost and each of their limitations, I’m currently in the “keep your powder dry” camp. Wait and see, even if the Knicks end up pretty much running back last year’s team.

    I’d much rather have a legit 3+ year window with Mitchell.

    What “window”?

    What “window”?

    The one where we have possibly three 4+BPM players supplemented by a bunch of hustlebunnies, small setbacks are fixed with prudent trades for rotation players by giving up draft picks, with a coach who is in his mid-60s. Surely you must agree with that?

    Surely you must agree with that?

    I basically tune out when I read “BPM,” honestly. If a basketball point can’t be made without reference to some overdeterminative all-in metric, it either needs restatement or a place on the cutting room floor.

    No “window” necessarily opens up by this roster subtracting pieces and adding Donovan Mitchell.

    E, my comment was intended to be tongue in cheek…

    I read it again … kudos! (I really do tune out at BPM ….)

    Hopefully if we trade for Mitchell E will confidently declare we won’t win a playoff series, as this tends to guarantee at least one series win.

    Stein also says the Clippers are looking to move Morris. It would be hilarious given, well, everything, but any chance they’d go for a Fournier swap? I wouldn’t include any assets because I don’t consider Morris any better of an “asset” than Fournier–they’re both mostly washed expiring guys–but he does fit our team a lot better.

    Funny enough, last summer i was in favor of trading for Donovan and now i’m against it. At the time all of us got to the conclusion that Donovan was a good fit in Cleveland and that team would contend for several years, given the ages of the core players. So, if after only one season Cleveland is already trying to ship out Donovan, that is a huge red flag to me.
    My python sense says we should keep waiting for the right time to strike. And isn’t Windy known to spread rumors right around this time, after the draft and before free agency, that most of the time never come true?

    Or they are trying to ship him out because he has made it clear he doesn’t wanna be in Cleveland, and wants to go to New York.

    Morris as a back up PF to Randle if we ship out Obi in a separate deal actually sounds pretty ok to me.

    It would be funny, though, if he was backing up Randle.

    I think we should just keep signing 6’8″ dudes until we find someone who can play.

    I think we should just keep signing 6’8″ dudes until we find someone who can play.

    Honestly this is not a bad strategy. If you pick up a scrap heap dude you can usually pay them next to nothing for at least 2 years and then still get them cheap if you extend them.

    I am coming around the idea of trading RJ for whatever package, get DiVincenzo and keep the course.

    We are in, what was the word …, mezzanine! along many other teams also in the mezzanine. And every one of these teams is coveting the other team players to reach the contender status. However, you can only remain in the mezzanine for so long. Eventually your players will age and fall back in the standings, and you will have to rebuild. It seems that the Knicks, Clippers, Portland, Toronto, Brooklyn, Chicago, Atlanta and the Pelicans are playing a game of blink. Other not-quite contender teams might feel confident in their core of star players (Lakers, GSW) and just need to fill out on the sides, or feel they can grow internally to contenders (Memphis, OKC, Cleveland,…). But ours and others are a bunch of flawed teams looking for that flawed but complimentary piece, good enought for the next level.

    So, here is what I am thinking, we can play this game longer than the rest. Our team is still young even if we are near our ceiling. Be patient and the opportunity will present itself. Get DiVincenzo and other hustlebunnies, we still have plenty trade assets.

    pretty hilarious that not one week after “Zach LaVine is not coming to the Knicks because Klutch hates CAA”, OG Anunoby fires Klutch and joins CAA.

    Anyway, free agency starts in 50 hours – we will probably know the resolution of many of these things within a few hours after that…

    CAA for OG…

    Now let’s see if he retroactively commits to either Kentucky or Villanova for college.

    All this worry about a small backcourt and SF, the Knicks in 2013 routinely started 2 PGs and Shump at SF!

    I actually think adding OG and keeping Quickley and Grimes out of that deal somehow would be my preferred outcome for this offseason. I just don’t think Masai will be interested in RJ + picks unless it’s more picks than I’m comfortable with.

    In 2013, there was a fan contributor on P&T who had a nice little column breaking down game film.

    Today, Dylan Murphy was announced as the new head coach of the Magic.

    What a world

    I’m happy to see OG is making the proper changes to facilitate his departure from the Raptors to the Knicks.

    LMAO the twitter image crop really fucked me over on that one.

    Still pretty awesome to go from blog poster to G-league head coach!!

    RJ and Obi plus 3 first round picks. That’s a nice haul for a role player. Yes, OG is good but let’s not get carried away.

    Still pretty awesome to go from blog poster to G-league head coach!!

    Brian, Max, Farfa, one of you will be coaching the Westies 10 years from now, be ready! 😀

    In 10 years, I wouldn’t be shocked if the Knicks’ G-League team was actually based in Portugal or Italy! We’re going global…….

    So the guy who pleaded no-contest to domestic violence and got 3 years probation got less of a suspension than Morant flashing a gun in two IG videos.

    Discuss

    Isn’t the thing with Ja that he threatened the Pacers? Or his associates?

    I don’t really understand what is happening but I have a feeling we aren’t being told absolutely everything.

    Director, Hartenstein in not on the initial 18-man roster they submitted.

    Thanks Bernie. I was actually hopping he would play and be featured in playmaking role…but I guess health comes first.

    Miles Bridges did not play at all last year. Not sure if that counts as “time already served” or whether it matters in the comparison, just pointing it out.

    Miles Bridges did not play at all last year. Not sure if that counts as “time already served” or whether it matters in the comparison, just pointing it out.

    Yeah, they counted 20 games of his 30 game suspension for that. I just think it’s weird that ESPN has an article that Hornets will be most likely playing him after 10 regular season games (the rest of his suspension) while Ja will still be suspended.

    I guess threatening to harm someone is seen as worse than actual harm according to Mr Silver? /controversialopinion

    T-Wolves declined $7.4M option on Taurean Prince…apparently Prince found out from a Woj tweet!

    It’s a skeezy double standard and you’re right to point it out, but isn’t Ja or one of his buddies alleged to have pointed a gun at the Pacer’s team bus? I can understand why the league would want to clamp down on that hard.

    I wonder if the timing of the Bridges thing was a factor…he probably cost himself a max deal. The ugly irony there is that CHA will get his services at a huge discount.

    It really does seem like a slap on the wrist in comparison. otoh I guess the fact that Ja’s first suspension did not change his behaviors is a contributing factor.

    okay milo…

    anything interesting happening in hotlanta?

    as side not everyone – if you have MLB TV, you may want to tune in right now…

    not gonna say too much about it – no jinxing allowed…

    I can’t think of a Yankees pitcher less deserving of throwing a perfect game for multiple reasons.

    The 2023 A’s are in strong contention to be the worst baseball team ever assembled, but hey a perfecto is a perfecto

    T-Wolves declined $7.4M option on Taurean Prince…apparently Prince found out from a Woj tweet!

    Super douchey.

    One thing that I think is very important to note is that the Chicago Bulls were literally the number one seed in the Eastern Conference (third best record in the NBA) in the 2012-22 season when their starting point guard, the guy who made the whole roster work, who they gladly paid a tampering penalty for, went down with an injury so bad that he hasn’t played since (and won’t play this upcoming season). I say this only to note that I truly don’t blame Artūras Karnišovas for his bold “all-in” move with the Bulls flaming out. It was just bad luck.

    However, that being said, I don’t know what the fuck he is doing now that everything has flamed out. The team is done, why is he trying to keep the band together?

    I dunno Brian, seems to me that the team he assembled was clunky to begin with and had a hard ceiling even before Ball was lost. But the fact that they are a fringe playoff team is definitely bad luck.

    Should they be tearing it down now? Probably. Maybe Karnisovas is feeling heat to put a competitive product on the floor, or maybe he feels that he can get more for Vuc while he is signed than by just letting him walk. It will be interested to see what happens with DeRozan and LaVine…those two guys seem more like the bellwethers.

    One thing I read while trying to make sense of this is that by extending him now, he can trade Vooch as soon as Saturday. That’s something. I don’t see how they don’t try to trade Vooch and DeRozan. They’re still good players, but they’re 32 and 33 years old, respectively!

    I just don’t know what those 2 guys will fetch, can’t imagine it would be very much, especially DeRozan. And according to Jake Fisher, there isn’t a robust market for LaVine either.

    I wonder whether Ainge’s two deals and the fact that the teams who made them were eliminated in the first round while the Jazz are kinda good already and on their way to being contenders has given the league some pause about selling the farm for non-MVP types and, more generally, overpaying for second and third tier stars.

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