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Knicks Morning News (2023.06.17)

  • NBA Free Agency: Nets’ Seth Curry to Knicks? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 8:37:42 PM

    NBA Free Agency: Nets’ Seth Curry to Knicks?  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks Favorites to Land All-Star Guard This Summer – Heavy.com
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 7:15:26 PM

    Knicks Favorites to Land All-Star Guard This Summer  Heavy.com

  • Knicks should move on from Thibs after this year: Stephen A Smith – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 7:09:00 PM

    Knicks should move on from Thibs after this year: Stephen A Smith  New York Post

  • Knicks could add another Villanova champion to roster in free agency – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 5:00:30 PM

    Knicks could add another Villanova champion to roster in free agency  Daily Knicks

  • Free Agent Center Has Fans in Knicks Organization: Report – Heavy.com
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 2:39:12 PM

    Free Agent Center Has Fans in Knicks Organization: Report  Heavy.com

  • Knicks linked to 3x All-Star as potential trade candidate – Yardbarker
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 1:25:26 PM

    Knicks linked to 3x All-Star as potential trade candidate  Yardbarker

  • Bradley Beal Trade: Are Knicks ‘Widely Regarded’ Favorites? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 1:03:00 PM

    Bradley Beal Trade: Are Knicks ‘Widely Regarded’ Favorites?  Sports Illustrated

  • Controversial New Yorker Teams to Buy Michael Jordan’s Charlotte … – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 12:03:04 PM

    Controversial New Yorker Teams to Buy Michael Jordan’s Charlotte …  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks: The perfect Zach LaVine trade New York must offer Bulls – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 11:45:18 AM

    Knicks: The perfect Zach LaVine trade New York must offer Bulls  ClutchPoints

  • The Official Leon Rose NBA Draft Heuristic – The Knicks Wall
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 10:00:30 AM

    The Official Leon Rose NBA Draft Heuristic  The Knicks Wall

  • Pod Strickland: Episode 306 – The Strickland
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 9:09:48 AM

    Pod Strickland: Episode 306  The Strickland

  • 3 Role players the Knicks should target on the trade market – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Friday, June 16, 2023 8:00:46 AM

    3 Role players the Knicks should target on the trade market  Daily Knicks

  • 37 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.06.17)”

    Honestly..what would be a perfect offseason in my eyes would be moving RJ in a package for George, and trading Obi in a deal to either get back into the draft or with Fournier for a backup to Randle like Bertans, and platoon him with Sims behind Randle. Oh..and re-sign Hart, and extend Quickley of course.

    I’d rather bank on whatever upside RJ has after seeing his game change in the playoffs, but I don’t see a good Randle trade out there. In lieu of that, a triumvirate of Brunson/George/Randle should be good enough to win the East.

    Thoughts?

    Poindexter, I mean sure. Not a big fan of George on the Knicks, but he’d be a big upgrade. Don’t think we’re getting him without losing important pieces of this team, though (your ‘package’).

    What I don’t get is the idea that RJ is good after 10-11 games in the playoffs. First, he played “okay” as compared to one of the worst NBA players in the league, so good for him. But more important, we’ve seen a string of 10-15 games over the last four years where RJ has “turned the corner” yet where he’s then sunk back into suckitude.

    Maybe he HAS turned the corner. Or maybe he’ll work super hard on his game this off season and actually turn the corner. But maybe it’s Lucy pulling the football away again.

    I really don’t know. Apparently even Kevin Knox can get (a little bit) better. So if we don’t jettison RJ it’ll be a very interesting story line regarding whether he gets better that I’ll enjoy watching (until such time as it becomes clear he hasn’t).

    Sign Naz Reid, package our flotsam for a decent shooter and call it a day. Stay away from Zach, Beal, Kawhi, George, KAT, and Zion. We are stuck with Julius. Every GM is aware of Randle’s mood swings. RJ is flawed, but shows a desire to keep fighting. You can’t teach effort and the playoffs brought out some nice moments. Let this team continue to develop and bond. There is a really special chemistry.

    I don’t know. More I think about it the more I just feel strongly that we should hold on to everyone including RJ.

    Don’t ask me to give rational reasons for why. I just feel strongly he’s going to put it together next season. Maybe not all star level but it seems like it really all just comes down to shooting, specifically three point shooting. I know he still needs to make better decisions when he drives into the lane and gets doubled, but that I think will come with time.

    Get that 3 point average up to a respectable 36 percent and be consistent with it and it’s a whole new ball game for him.

    I just feel like we didn’t pull the trigger last year on Mitchell so why would we pull the trigger this year on lesser players when our young guys – specifically IQ and Grimes – are better now than they were then?

    I also feel pretty confident Brunson and Randle will bring roughly the same production that they did last year and it is not out of the realm for them to even be a little better.

    The team learned hard lessons against Miami that they can use this summer to work on the specific things that need to be worked on.

    The main thing the team as a whole needs to work on is three point shooting. That’s really it. Specifically RJ, IQ, and Hart but also it’s something Randle could be a little better at. I think these guys know this. And Mitch needs to work on a few post moves and a ten foot jumper.

    I think they have time now to implement some more offensive sets and learn to move the ball a bit more and not rely on so much ISO. The longer cores stay together the better their defense can get.

    Yes talent upgrades are important. Continuity doesn’t work if you have no talent. But we got talent on the team. We got a two time all NBA player. One of the best point guards in the league. A 6th man of the year caliber player who is a two way player. We got one of tent defensive and rebounding centers in the league. We got a nice up and coming 3 and D player and a great glue guy. We got one of the best back ups in the league.

    The team is YOUNG too. We lose sight of that. Our oldest core player is Randle and he’s not even 30 yet. Brunson is just entering his prime years. Everyone else is under 25. He’ll iHart’s not even that old. Hart is a bit older but still in his prime.

    They like the coach. He’s gaining trust in the younger players. We have the chance to play 10 deep next season and still get a top 4 seed in the east.

    The Celtics have hit a wall it appears. Miami can’t do this every year and Jimmy is getting older. The bucks outside of Giannis are getting up there. Embiid has chronic knee issues. Cavs are probably the biggest threat to us and we crushed them in the playoffs.

    I just don’t see what options that are being bandied about that make sense.

    When a player gives off Antonio McDyess vibes, I run in the opposite direction. You do not trade young and healthy for “surgically repaired”.

    I’ve been thinking about another possible scenario. I’m not describing the ideal scenario. I don’t even know if it’s politically possible, but basketball wise it’s at least OK. If we can’t find the right deal, I think we should move Quickley to SG, Grimes to SF, RJ to the bench, and add a true backup PG that can shoot a bit. We’ll be small, but Quickley and Grimes both defend well. Quickley is a little streaky, but he’s a bigger outside and playmaking threat than RJ. I think on a net basis that improves the defense, spacing, and play making in the starting lineup. It will make Quickley happy because he supposedly wants to start. It may improve RJ’s efficiency playing against 2nd units. It puts a different scoring threat on the bench. And if you add a backup PG that can shoot a bit keeps the 2nd unit balanced.

    I got over my interest in watching old white men try to teach young black men lessons long ago. They’re all criminals themselves to varying degrees of acceptability. Morant is, arguably, the most exciting player in the league. I’m gonna tune in to watch him play, not to watch him be taught a lesson my his massa. That antebellum shit isn’t supposed to fly in the supposedly woke NBA.

    100%

    walkerandbendercornerstonessays,

    I’m with you.

    The idea that we HAVE TO make a deal is just not correct. We WANT TO make a deal, but we have to resist making a bad one. It has to make basketball sense and make us better short and long term.

    Ideally, we want to upgrade from RJ, but RJ is not done improving and there is no ideal player out there to put in that slot other than OG. It seems like a few teams are hell bent on trading for OG. So even if Toronto makes him available, we are probably going to get outbid.

    Things will change during the season and other players will become available at the deadline. It makes more sense to just tweak our starting lineup and add depth/shooting than to do the wrong thing.

    NBA player? Every Knickerblogger poster could do it. NBA defenses would gladly allow for it, because none of the shots would go in.

    i don’t agree with how E is making the argument… but he’s right about usage… you cannot credibly generate any sort of usage in the nba unless you’re trying to intentionally sabotage the game…. most nba players cannot actually…. if you’ve ever played against a team of players much better than you… you’re going to struggle getting off a good shot….

    of course you could take the inbound and start heaving it as soon as you get it… but none of these nba players are doing that…. if you get stuck on an nba team and you’re actually trying to win.. your usg would be very close to zero…..

    the kb hivemind does have a blindspot due to the pointzz era… and guys like iverson and melo were the poster child of dumb players doing dumb things… i get it…. but just because they were overrated didn’t mean they didn’t have value and the value that they gave was generating usg on teams that literally didn’t have anyone generating it… how amazing is it that they took their teams as far as they did without actually being high usg and high efficiency guys? it was mostly them surrounded by catch and shoot guys…. and they found some success being mostly b tier guys….

    there were multiple studies on this and yes just having high usg makes the players around you shoot better….. you let your catch and shoot guys catch and shoot instead of having to create off the dribble and look like one of you guys doing it….

    now being as inefficient as rj is…. that’s not good…. but you did have guys like that come off the bench because generating usg for bench squads was actually really valuable….. that’s basically where he’s headed for if he doesn’t improve….

    but even despite having guys like rj and wiggins they were still apart of some very good offenses because they let the rest of the team do what they do best…. he just has to figure things out on his own or get replaced by a guy who has in order to have a more robust offense….

    I don’t know. More I think about it the more I just feel strongly that we should hold on to everyone including RJ.

    Well, part of it is that we cannot get 1-to-1 value for either RJ or Randle, much less WIN a trade of those guys. They have more value on the Knicks than anywhere else. Thibs has maximized Randle to his fullest. And maybe some team will take a chance on RJ, but not at a loss.

    An Obi trade is probably all that’s going to happen. Would be nice if we could do a three-teamer that sends him to Brooklyn where he’s from. If not, Indiana makes a lot of sense.

    Then re-sign Kevin Knox as our backup 4 (ducks, runs for cover).

    I’d love to capitalize on this remarkable market inefficiency created by the world losing its mind over a video so few people have actually seen.

    We could probably get Ja for Jalen, but that would be a pretty shitty thing to do to Jalen and I don’t see Leon being that heartless,.

    Build a package around IQ and let’s find out how dumb Memphis is.

    What he did in the playoffs doesn’t really matter much more than any other 11 game sample (it does make his regular season a bit better though, and I think that’s fine)

    this is half right.. yes 11 games is 11 games but it’s not just like the reg season… layne vashro actually quantified this when he measured the competition around the world… the playoffs being about 18% tougher than the reg season…

    https://fansided.com/2015/11/06/deep-dives-measuring-level-of-competition-around-the-world/

    you’re playing against better competition and you’re getting gameplan’ed against…. all you have to do is look around the rest of the players who struggled mightily in this environment this year and in others to see that it’s not gonna be the same…

    but yes at the end of the day it is just 11 games but once you do a deeper dive not much of what rj could be attributed to volatility…. the only thing he didn’t do before that jumps out is a 40% ftr and he’s not actually all that far from it to say that’s impossible…

    will it happen? who knows… but there’s a lot to like with what he did in the playoffs… and he’s done all that before… it’s just a matter of doing that over a longer period of time which has always been his problem….

    Twitter’s down at the moment, so I can’t quote or link to anything, but there’s a video of Windy talking about how Zion basically has no relationship with any of his teammates, or anyone in the organization. Feels like they’re going to have to move him, which will be an enormous gamble for both parties. If he just doesn’t want to be in New Orleans and is doing whatever he can to alienate the organization, that’s not great, but it also suggests he would actually get himself in shape in an environment he enjoys. But he may just not care, no matter where he is. I wish Charlotte or whomever luck. He’s amazing to watch when he’s healthy and trying, but…

    I’m just catching up with yesterday’s thread on RJ and usage.

    You DO need some players that can create their own shot well. That should not even be a debate. The question is whether the efficiency on the shots that player is creating are better than you could have gotten from the available alternatives on that possession.

    In other words, if some guy creates some shots with a TS% of only 40%, that sucks, but in some situations it might be the best you can do. In other situations it would be a terrible shot.

    A guy like RJ is going to be better in some situations than Grimes or JHart trying to create something. The problem with RJ is that he forces a lot of bad ones when there were still passing opportunities and the ones he does create are usually not that good because he’s not a good shot maker. IMO he clearly does have a skill that Grimes and JHart don’t have. If you gave each of them the ball with 5 seconds left on the clock, RJ would do the best. The problem is that his best is not up to the quality you want. You need a better shot creator/shooter.

    I enjoyed the back-and-forth on RJ yesterday. Here’s my take:

    There is no doubt that statistically speaking, RJ has been woefully inconsistent on both ends of the floor. There is also validity to the argument that there are few players to compare him to because it is rare that a coach would allow a such a bad (statistically speaking) player to have no guard rails on his game whatsoever. I can only recall two times that RJ was benched for the entire fourth quarter for stinking out the joint; and a larger but still small smattering of games where his 4th quarter minutes were limited, mainly because Thibs just went with what was working rather than as a “yanking” due to poor play. So he has largely avoided being held accountable…in his first year because whatever, and since because of Thibs’ infatuation with his propensity to make “winning plays” that only he can see. (There’s probably al least some truth to this, but whatever…) And that’s the problem…he has been coddled and spoiled by getting too much rope.

    That said, I, for one, am willing to throw out the entire 10,000 minute sample of RJ’s mostly shitty play on the basis of it all taking place at an age where he could have still been in college (Obi Toppin was around RJ’s current age as a rookie.)

    Because of that, I have a good feeling about him becoming a “solid” NBA starter during his current contract. I think the shooting will improve, the decision-making (e.g. shot selection) will improve, and the advanced numbers will improve. Why?

    1) He has a Mamba mindset, for lack of a better way of putting it. He will not accept topping out at this level. He knows that he needs to improve and he will work his ass off to do do. I bet he reads what is written about him, and feels stung by it. He’s a smart kid, and yet, he is a kid. As he matures, he will understand the limitations of his game on a higher level.

    2) The beauty of having Jalen Brunson and Josh Hart in the fold is that they are positive role models for RJ of the kind he has never had in the past. I think they will have a major positive impact on RJ in terms of a) being more of a team-oriented player and b) working on specific aspects of his game.

    3) There is clearly an NBA-starter skillset there to build on. Thibs knows this and believes in it. I’m 100% in on the “appeal to authority” argument here. Bloggerheads can quibble all they want with the stubbornness regarding Elfrid Payton’s overuse in 2020-21, but in nearly all cases, Thibs’ rotational/minutes-allocation decisions have paid off in winning basketball. He was patient with Randle and as such he silenced the doubters who wanted to trade Randle at rock-bottom value with sweetener attached. I feel that the same thing is happening this year. Folks want RJ Barrett included in deals at what is possibly his lowest value. That is bad asset management, just as dumping Randle would have been bad asset management last year.

    In summary, sure, if you can upgrade the positional situation from “solid” to “star” by using RJ, fine, I’m down with that. But the notion of dumping him based on this 22yo and under stats seems extremely short-sighted. In other words, the arguments made yesterday could be true at the same time…RJ has sucked and may continue to suck, but he has very clear and legitimate ways to blossom in the right kind of developmental soil, namely one where he is surrounded by mature, championship-level leaders.

    Z-Man

    The question I would ask is this.

    If the goal is not to upgrade from RJ, then who are we upgrading?

    Brunson is solid.

    We talked about upgrading from Mitch, but that requires upgrading other positions defensively unless you can get someone like Turner. So it’s more complex.

    Upgrading from Grimes is a possibility, but out of all our young players he may be the most likely to take a serious step forward next year. He took a step forward in year 2 despite injuries hampering him in camp and the start of the year. And he’s young.

    Moving Randle is a possibility, but then you have to replace his scoring and rebounding. That doesn’t seem likely unless it’s part of a much bigger deal.

    That leaves RJ who is a negative on both sides right now. He’s going to get better, but what’s the top? As I keep saying, you don’t make a deal just to make a deal, but that’s the position of weakness that makes the most sense if we can find a deal.

    “That leaves RJ who is a negative on both sides right now. He’s going to get better, but what’s the top? As I keep saying, you don’t make a deal just to make a deal, but that’s the position of weakness that makes the most sense if we can find a deal.”

    I see that point, but for me it’s more important to consider a player’s relative value regarding his contract and positional scarcity.

    For example, re: Mitch…he is probably at his peak value-wise, locked up on a longer-term descending deal…but at a position that is easier to fill at a reasonable cost, especially given the trade-offs involved with Mitch’s game. So you kind of know what both his present and future value is in a trade. And there’s more of a chance that some desperate Western team sees Mitch as some kind of antibody against Jokici-tis that they will give you back something excellent in a trade…then you just slot iHart in and pay a pittance for a solid backup C (iHart may have been the best backup C in the NBA last year, so making him a starter isn’t exactly a stretch.)

    With RJ, any opposing GM would have to buy in to RJ’s theoretical upside given the size and length of his contract. In my opinion, that surpresses his market value at this time. I share the sentiment that he will likely improve over time, and as such, the value in a trade for an improved RJ on a shorter and increasingly modest deal will be higher in the future than it is right now. And who knows? Maybe he blossoms into a keeper!

    Of course, if you find a GM that thinks more like E than TNFH and is drooling of the prospect of paying RJ $30M in two years, you let them go all Isiah and give up multiple picks or a star for the privilege.

    But trading him along with multiple firsts for someone like OG or LaVine or god forbid Beal seems like bad asset management to me.

    I’d love to capitalize on this remarkable market inefficiency created by the world losing its mind over a video so few people have actually seen.

    It is more about pointing a gun at the Pacers bus, threatening a mall’s security, and punching a kid in the face, which the NBA can conveniently sweep under the rug as long as Ja does not go publicly with guns on his IG feed.

    I am pretty sure all Pacers team is pushing for Ja to be outright banned from NBA.

    This is an interesting discussion when no one is doing a Smarter Than Thou bit, hope it doesn’t get derailed.

    Djphan, I completely agree that the ability to get off a credible unassisted shot against NBA defenses is a skill, and a rare one at that. If you have a young player who has that skill I support being patient with their development, because it’s simply a very hard skill to find.

    If I didn’t accept these premises I would’ve been completely out on RJ Barrett ages ago, so I don’t think it’s fair to group me in with some alleged “KB hive mind.” I am well aware that just about all successful NBA offenses can be boiled down to guys who draw disproportionate defensive attention either scoring themselves or getting the ball to lower usage players who benefit from Guy 1 getting all that defensive attention.

    But again, this is supposed to be a means to an end. For any of this to matter, it eventually has to translate into results. Otherwise you have something more akin to the saboteur scenario.

    You mentioned the numbers showing lower usage players shooting better with playing alongside Melo et al. I’ve seen them too. Do they exist for RJ Barrett? I’m not seeing it. It’s hard to isolate his specific impact because he mostly played alongside Randle and Brunson, who I absolutely thinkdo help low-usage players, but if there was an RJ Effect it would basically be impossible for his on/off numbers to be so dreadful.

    My eye-test and common sense based impression is that defenses ain’t exactly selling out to stop RJ Barrett because he hasn’t proved they should, so any benefits our lower usage guys accrue are incredibly mild compared to the detriment of RJ giving away so many possessions by missing shots.

    This will continue to be the case unless he starts hitting a lot more shots!

    I got over my interest in watching old white men try to teach young black men lessons long ago. They’re all criminals themselves to varying degrees of acceptability. Morant is, arguably, the most exciting player in the league. I’m gonna tune in to watch him play, not to watch him be taught a lesson my his massa. That antebellum shit isn’t supposed to fly in the supposedly woke NBA.

    Yeah, no.

    First, to be clear, I posted after the first incident that I found it hypocritical when most state governments were going out of their way to make it easy to own guns that there could be such approbation about a player flashing a gun. If we apparently are unable to defeat the gun lobby’s hold on politicians, if our culture routinely glorifies violence as a legitimate solution to problems, then it’s absurd there could be such an outcry.

    And second, to be clear, my position on firearms is diametrically opposed. I am a Quaker; violence is morally wrong.

    But it isn’t about race and massa and plantation etc etc. It’s about capitalism. The NBA is a business, and having one of its most notable players wave a gun around on social media is bad for business. That would be as true of a white player as a black player. I expect Silver would have suspended Luka as well for the same kind of incident – though it’s also possible the suspension was more harsh because of the crowd Ja is surrounding himself with. Which, again, is a legitimate concern for a business about one of its entertainers.

    I know it was never explicitly proven but it seems quite likely Ja and/or his friends pointed a gun at the Indiana Pacers’ team bus. That’s really, really bad. Suspending him for the videos might be the NBA equivalent of getting Al Capone on tax evasion.

    In a criminal proceeding with one’s liberty at stake I would never, ever support accounting for uncharged conduct in a sentence. But I’m not exactly outraged if that’s happening in the NBA suspension context.

    TNFH, I think your points above are actually understated. My guess is that RJ not only doesn’t draw the defensive attention that Brunson and Randle do, but that opposing coaches actually game-plan ways to increase RJ’s inefficient usage by helping off of him. I mean, why wouldn’t they? Why wouldn’t defenses drop off an extra step from RJ when he camps out at the 3pt line, either on ball of off ball? Why wouldn’t they use his defender to double-team more than defenders of Randle or Brunson (or Grimes and Mitch, for that matter?)

    I don’t think you can accurately discuss where RJ is as an offensive player until he scores efficiently enough for defenses to actually give him the attention that they would give to a high-efficiency-high-usage player.

    In other words, if the object of defense is to lower the opponent’s offensive efficiency on any given possession, a possession used by RJ has to be one of the most desirable outcomes of any defensive game plan against the Knicks. The more possessions RJ uses, the better. That means helping off of him, funneling the ball to him by leaving him more open, never doubling him except with blitzes in the paint when he predictably drives left, never closing out to the point of being out of the play, dropping into predictable passing lanes whenever he puts his head down and sees that the shot isn’t there….

    Until RJ gets good enough to eliminate these negative consequences to the offense, it’s impossible to determine how he will do when he is actually treated like Brunson or the all-NBA version of Randle.

    Z-Man, agree on all fronts. I mean, opposing players have outright said an RJ Barrett shot attempt is a desirable outcome.

    The value of usage in and of itself is an interesting, nuanced discussion. I definitely don’t appreciate being told that anyone who casts doubt as to the value of RJ Barrett specifically simply doesn’t understand those nuances.

    There are high-usage, questionable efficiency players who show a lot of promise and/or are likely getting shafted by various metrics for a variety of reasons.

    It does not logically follow that all high-usage, questionable efficiency players are providing real, undetected value.

    It’s telling that very few people are willing to make the case for RJ specifically here–it’s all broad ideas about usage with little-to-no discussion as to how they apply to RJ Barrett.

    Everyone here knows what RJ is versus what he could become.

    Where I think people vary is in regards to if trading RJ now for an older wing is ultimately worth it.

    Personally, I dont think trading him (plus two 1sts) for LaVine is worthwhile. You could argue it’s more about the 1sts, LaVine’s injury history, etc., but ultimately, it’s about gauging proper value, and idk if there’s a trade right now for RJ where you’re not minimizing his value.

    Quickley, on the other hand, is probably at max value. Other teams want to move him up to starter, he has good advanced numbers, and he’s still on a small contract.

    Shams: “Developing: Washington is in serious talks with two finalists – Miami and Phoenix – on a Bradley Beal trade, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium. The Suns have emerged as a serious threat for Beal, who holds a no-trade clause.”

    “It’s telling that very few people are willing to make the case for RJ specifically here–it’s all broad ideas about usage with little-to-no discussion as to how they apply to RJ Barrett.”

    I tried to do that, but I can try to clarify.

    I think the Knicks need a 3rd player that create because Mitch is severely limited and either Grimes or JHart can’t do it consistently enough. That makes RJ the 3rd option.

    Without RJ, I think Brunson and Randle would be forced to create and take even more tough shots than they do now or Grimes and JHart would have to start taking some shots they are probably even worse at than RJ.

    Of course like you and Z-Man said, defenses know RJ is not a good 3rd option. So they would way rather he was trying to create something than Randle and especially Brunson. That’s their game plan. They want RJ to shoot and especially take tough shots. That’s our weakness in the starting lineup.

    The solution is not to put some low usage efficient player in RJ’s slot.

    The solution is one of several possibilities.

    1. RJ gets a lot better.

    2. We trade RJ for a player that can be a viable 3rd option that can burn defenses if they try to cheat off him and defend Brunson and Randle better.

    3. Grimes grows into that role.

    4. As I a suggested earlier, try Quick in the starting lineup and put RJ on the bench. Quick is slowly getting better at creating and dishing and you can’t leave him open. So maybe we should try that.

    I am still firmly in the trade Randle camp. We already have a player that holds the ball and can create offense when things break down in Brunson. Randle is just an inferior version of that offensively. We need players that make quick decisions on offense and keep the ball and the pace up. That is not Randle. Plus Randle is maddeningly inconsistent defensively even in the payoffs.

    If we want more space around Robinson, we need a more face-up PF to stretch the floor and not play so much out of the high post. I think Obi might be able to be that guy but if not a more modern 3-4 is a better fit than an old-school PF like Randle.

    I am okay if we stand pat but if we make the big move it should be centered around Randle more than RJ. I’m OK with both in the right circumstances.

    but he’s right about usage… you cannot credibly generate any sort of usage in the nba unless you’re trying to intentionally sabotage the game…. most nba players cannot actually…. if you’ve ever played against a team of players much better than you… you’re going to struggle getting off a good shot….

    I think we were mostly just trying to dumb down our point so Everyone could understand.

    But on RJs current efficiency you’re effectively just heaving the ball at the rim for a number of possessions a game. You could take place a league average efficiency/usage player in his spot and purposely throw the ball out of bounds 5 times a game to even out the usage.

    There’s some inversion point where efficiency/usage flips from negative to positive. I’d say RJ is below that line right now, but not necessarily that far below.

    His offense wasn’t as much of a problem as his defense this year. If he gets back to his previous defense I’d be higher on him.

    Shams: “Developing: Washington is in serious talks with two finalists – Miami and Phoenix – on a Bradley Beal trade, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium. The Suns have emerged as a serious threat for Beal, who holds a no-trade clause.”

    How though? 🤔

    Lol @ the idea of Beal in Phoenix.

    Even if you trade Ayton, that’s a starting 5 of Booker/Beal/KD/anon PF/ anon C. That cannot hold defensively if there’s any defensive regression at all from KD and I think you get diminishing returns on offense from Beal as opposed to a healthyish CP3.

    Miami on the other hand would be a good fit. Dump Herro plus a pick and some salary for a better guy when he’s healthy. Spend half the season load managing him while Jimmy and Bam hold down the fort, and if you’re at all lucky with injuries you’re right back in the mix in the East. Seems like a textbook Pat Riley play.

    Last post, I promise.

    RJ is a mezzanine player. He can soak usage but he can’t win you a championship or come close to it… yet.

    Quentin Grimes types are on every or nearly every championship team. You see RJ types on few, if any, such teams.

    This is why people like Grimes more than RJ. We know he’s a piece of a championship puzzle even if he’s not the most important one. RJ isn’t right now, and may never be.

    I think there’s a world where RJ becomes an efficient at-the-rim player, adds a good-enough floater, brings his ft% up just under .800, and starts hitting around 34% of his threes.

    For better or worse, I don’t think his passing, rebounding, or stocks will change much, but if he can become an average defender (maybe taking the 2nd-best wing while Grimes takes the best one), I could see him sticking around.

    Basically that’s an average wing — something between Harrison Barnes and Andre Iguodala. No doubt, he has a way to go before getting to that level, but I’m just going to say it seems possible, even though that might be his ceiling.

    The fact that we still have to begin posts with “I think there’s a world where RJ becomes…….” at this point in his career should tell us all we need to know about him, no?

    Haynes: “Phoenix can offer a trade package of Deandre Ayton and Landry Shamet to Washington for Bradley Beal, but it’s believed a Chris Paul, Shamet deal is what it would take if Beal chose to force his way to the Suns via his no-trade clause”

    Booker Durant Beal seems like some Isiah level thinking.

    I don’t know, I dont think that will work. Who plays defense on that team?

    But again, this is supposed to be a means to an end. For any of this to matter, it eventually has to translate into results. Otherwise you have something more akin to the saboteur scenario.

    i think the part that you’re missing is that it already has benefited the knicks… yes if you look at purely +/- on/off court numbers and only look at it at one level then you will also draw a narrow conclusion… but there’s a reason why teams with the bad wiggins version and rj and dillon brooks and jordan clarkson and iverson and melo and all these seemingly terrible players in otherwise good offenses… produce good results for their team….

    and that’s because eventually primary or secondary options get stopped and you need to turn to someone else in the offense… or just giving the ball to randle or brunson 100x a game is unsustainable from a stamina or production standpoint… and someone else needs to carry the load…. for any number of reasons you need options to turn to or else you have some guys who you don’t want the ball in their hands doing something that they’re not used to…

    we had the #3 offense in the league… if rj hurt the offense… it really wasn’t by that much….. and yes being inefficient is not ideal…. but not many offenses has a 25 usg guy to turn to as a third or fourth option when guys get hurt or just not feeling it on a particular night….

    the sacramento kings with the #1 offense are turning to… kevin huerter? malik monk? the cavs were giving the ball to … evan mobley? caris levert? just look around the league… not every team is made up of superfriends… the third or fourth option might be ok players in isolation but how much more confident are you giving the ball to these guys if you need to make a basket over rj? if you’re feeling a little uncomfortable answering that question that could be what your missing here….

    and i’m not saying that usg by itself is the most valuable thing in the world either and that doesn’t make rj some underrated star…. it just makes him a bit better than you think it might…. and the playoffs are a very visible example where offense gets very tough to generate on most nights and you are scrambling for anybody to give you offense in any kind of way… mid range shots you’re normally screaming at folks in the reg season if they’re shooting that on a reg basis…. in these playoff games you will take anything that goes in… and those types of shots aren’t terrible…. randle shit the bed almost every game…. IQ was comatose… and we certainly were going to turn to grimes or hart to run some pnr and so in that very visible example it’s really nice to have someone to turn to for some usg when you need it…. and sometimes they can perform pretty well….

    it’s not just rj either…. these seemingly terribly high usg guys tend to surprise in the playoffs…. jordan clarkson did it regularly with the jazz and bailed them out on more than one occasion because counting on only donovan mitchell to generate offense is surprisingly not gonna work all the time…

    ideally yes… rj should have better efficiency…. but in an ideal world our third option would be lebron…. we don’t and where rj sits in the pecking order is not very harmful to what we’re doing considering where other teams sit in that position as well…. and if they’re better.. well they probably have a better outlook than us which is why we’re talking about upgrades to rj….

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