[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 8, 2023 12:57:52 AM
NBA Rumors: This Knicks-Bulls Trade Features DeMar DeRozan NBA Analysis Network
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 9:41:06 PM
Dear basketball media: please stop lumping the Knicks in with … BVM Sports
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 9:21:20 PM
Dear basketball media: please stop lumping the Knicks in with teams that need a point guard Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 8:00:22 PM
What lessons can Knicks’ Tom Thibodeau learn from the Nuggets offense? Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 7:49:06 PM
Legendary Holy Cross basketball coach George Blaney tosses out … Worcester Telegram
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 7:03:32 PM
Mavs: 3 sneaky players to take with No. 10 pick in 2023 NBA Draft ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 6:50:16 PM
NBA Finals 1999: Who won and why was that season shortened? Marca English
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 5:00:00 PM
Josh Hart resorts to tampering in effort to recruit Damian Lillard to Knicks Daily KnicksJosh Hart heading to NBA free agency with big Knicks hopes New York Post New York Knicks’ Josh Hart Decides on 2023-24 Player Option Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 4:44:41 PM
BREAKING: Canada Wildfire Air Issues Postpones Liberty’s Game … Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 3:00:00 PM
Perry’s 11: Ranking the Knicks’ Draft Picks of the Scott Perry Era Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 2:44:01 PM
Josh Hart Responds to Damian Lillard for Not Picking Knicks Heavy.com
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 2:20:00 PM
Atlantic Notes: Scariolo, Bridges, Knicks, Cassell hoopsrumors.com
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 1:48:49 PM
Knicks Draft Trade Idea: Obi Toppin to Clippers? Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 12:21:53 PM
NBA Mailbag: What was it like guarding Kobe Bryant? NBA.com
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 11:33:11 AM
Potential Jazz Target Josh Hart Finally Makes Player Option Decision Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 10:48:26 AM
Knicks’ Josh Hart planning to decline option, wants to return to New … AMNY
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 10:00:10 AM
James Harden free agency update is especially comical for Knicks … Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, June 7, 2023 8:00:53 AM
3 Knicks that improved their trade value in 2022-23 Daily Knicks
139 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.06.08)”
From Greenberg
Per our guru @StatsWilliams:
Jokic and Murray are the first pair of teammates with 30 point triple doubles in the same game in #NBA history. Not just Finals, not just Playoffs, it never happened in any game ever before tonight. #Nuggets
So how it works is: Two posters who have derailed thread after thread with festering piles of made-up bullshit for years lash out at a third poster, and a highly respected one at that, who shreds their stupid arguments and personally attack him as some kind of petty sellout.
The shame is, these two trolls had a brief moment of clarity where they realized how godawful their petulant rants were that they imposed a 5-post limit on themselves. But that troll gene is resilient as a mfer.
Alas, here we go again….more strawman burning, more regurgitation of inane catchphrases, more never-ending death scenes on stupid hills, more whining that anyone who goes back at them is mischaracterizing them or just doesn’t get what they are actually saying (leading to half-baked hypotheticals that prove nothing) or are just mindless fanbois shills who rubberstamp everything Leon does…
It’s gonna be a loooong summer.
Z-man, the easier way to snuff out the posting behavior you don’t like is to simply not acknowledge it. These threads get punishingly long and argumentative because people keep responding to each other. Calling one another out, or trying to change the minds of people who will clearly never change their minds, just fans the flames and makes this place unreadable on days like yesterday.
Be the change you want to see in the world. Post about things you find genuinely interesting about the team, the NBA, and/or the world at large. Here, I’ll start with a couple of different potential topics:
1. It’s hilarious that, minutes after Haynes tweeted that the Suns were going to waive CP3, Shams came in saying that they were still debating what to do, and might waive and re-sign him, or might try to trade him. Could be that Haynes just got it wrong, or it could be that once the news was out there, and everyone was responding with shock, the Phoenix FO realized that Paul is still a more valuable asset than they thought, and that they needed to convince some team to trade real stuff for him.
2. Joker is unbelievable. For those of us here who are old enough to have watched a healthy Bill Walton, and/or to have seen a bit of young Arvydas Sabonis on the Soviet team, has Jokic now clearly claimed the mantle of the best-passing big man ever? (Magic doesn’t count, since he played PG despite his size.)
New day Z-Man.
The topic for today is: Who is (or isn’) Zion schtupping?
Corollary: Why RJ was the best pick in the draft
It’s less about the arguments and more about the needless personal attacks directed at TNFH, who, as argumentative posters go, is about as far from a troll as there is on this site. But I hear you and will leave it at that.
Re: RJ, it’s really weird how he has sort of risen in 2019 top of the draft stature mostly on the basis of the failings of his fellow draftees. Even Darius Garland took a bit of a hit in that Cavs series!
Paul George:
“Late in the game. We out of timeouts, I look at Steven Adams and he’s scratching his face hard as f***. I’m like what are you doing? ‘Oh mate, we don’t have a timeout, I’m trying to bleed”
https://twitter.com/legionhoops/status/1666547622126178306?s=46&t=0wqff4cNt-sCGcDs-uMExw
Re: Jokic, the shame is that there really isn’t many true big men to rival him…really just Embiid, who he plays twice a year IF they are both healthy. This year, in the Philly game, Embiid went off for 47-18-5 with 5 stocks while Jokic had a relatively modest 24-8-9 with 2 blocks in a Sixers win. Then Jokic had a monster game in Denver but Embiid didn’t play.
I agree that he’s on the same level as prime Walton and Sabonis…better on O, probably not as good (but improving!) on D. Wilt was also a great passer when he wanted to be, but I think Jokic’s court vision is clearly superior to him and Sabonis. Kareem was an underrated passer.
Would love to have seen Jokic competing against more guys on that level.
Jokic is incredible. A second round pick!!!
Also Giannis? I guess he’s not a true big man, though, huh?
Kind of felt like last night was a big win for Denver as far as taking over this series. Obviously every win at this point is huge but Denver has been great at home and not great on the road. So losing game 2 it felt like maybe this could, in fact, be a long series that Miami could win. But last night felt kind of dominant and showed Denver is clearly the better team. We’ve all been wrong about Miami before in these playoffs but I don’t know. Last night’s win felt pretty significant for Denver.
TNFH started the entire argument. From start to finish. And he picked a fight with Hubert over something Hubert wrote that TNFH knows is true.
Fanaticism and zeal find few more welcoming homes than in the souls and psyches of the convert. We’ve seen that one play out right here on Knickerblogger.
(And no one is “making things up,” you supercilious windbag.)
In other news, Christian Braun, the 21st pick in the 2022 draft, certainly didn’t hide the toolbox last night. And in Game 3 of the Finals no less. Howsoever did Denver even find room for him on the roster?????? It baffles.
But … muh rotation.
@Alan
1. Mmmmm… it could totally be that they put the brakes when half the league did start queueing up outside their building 🙂
2. I wont say “clearly” but yes. We’re talking about three passing savants, but he’s claimed the mantle…
Macri’s newsletter today is him arguing for DiVincenzo as the guy we should target with our mid-level exception. I’m not sure it makes sense unless we’re shipping one of our wings out in a star trade, though it would be fun to increase the Villanova quotient. This was the most interesting part of the newsletter to me:
Like Macri says, the free agent PF market isn’t great this summer. Maybe Harrison Barnes would make some sense? But I can’t really see Thibs playing him as a small ball 5. So if Obi goes, who should we target, either as a FA or in a trade?
That player doesn’t exist on Earth.
The issue I have with Macri and the other close to the team commentators — who are generally awesome and a great read — is that their Overton window is too narrow. This is kind of an example.
You aren’t getting small-ball 5s and other modern things with this coach.
I have said my piece. I think that if any team could perform like the 2022-2023 Knicks while keeping their future asset chest above NBA par, a lot more teams would opt in. Some folks disagree and think the Hornets et al. are avoiding this terrible fate as a matter of choice. Moving on.
Re: CP3, I get the impression that Haynes, Shams, and the rest caught wind that something is happening with Chris Paul but none of them could quite nail it down. An outright waiver would surprise me. He’s definitely overpaid, but is still a good player and waiving him without making other significant moves doesn’t do much for the Suns.
That said, I guess if they waive CP3, trade Ayton into a team’s cap space, trade Shamet into a team’s cap space, and stretch waive CP3’s remaining guarantee they can open up real room. Enough for, say, a Kyrie Irving max…
I really like watching Denver play…
18 three-points attempts in a Finals Game? In 2023?
28 assists on 41 baskets?
58 to 33 rebounding edge, while pounding the smaller team like a pulp?
For old geekers like me it’s a joy watch a team play basketball “with everything in” (three-pointers, isos, pick & roll, pick & pop, backdoors, fastbreaks, missmatches, players movement…).
BTW have you seen the way Braun (and others) leaves his “assigned corner spot” and cut to the basket at the right moment when the paint is open?
And yes, having a genius like the Joker in the high-post helps, but I’m sure even a good passing big like I-Hart could be useful in those situations if J-Hart or Grimes (or Obi, or RJ) were allowed to do it… 😉
“And yes, having a genius like the Joker in the high-post helps, but I’m sure even a good passing big like I-Hart could be useful in those situations if J-Hart or Grimes (or Obi, or RJ) were allowed to do it…”
Jokic is such an elite pure scorer at all 3 levels that his ability to distract defenders makes those cuts more effective and devastating. With iHart, you just guard him straight up and dare him to shoot over or dribble around you….which is on balance a winning bet. If you do that with Jokic he’ll go for 60.
The Nuggets outrebounded the Heat 58-33 last night. East not quite so big anymore. (edit: I see I got sniped with that observation)
A team with Durant, Irving and Booker might lack in certain areas outside of scoring. Feels like an early aughts Knicks concept of team building.
Grimes is a pretty good cutter. It’s a bit odd we didn’t use Hart’s passing ability more, it’s not like Thibs has no history of using a passing big man in his offenses.
From that list, Trey Lyles & Dario Saric could slot into the Obi role. Nothing terribly exciting though.
I’m still tempted to run Hart out there at the 4 and see what happens. Then we could get Donte if we wanted.
Isaiah Roby has some intriguing skills but probably doesn’t amount to anything.
E, Thibs played 6’9″ Taj a bunch at both center and PF during his time here. He also occasionally ran out lineups this year with Randle at C flanked by Brunson and three wings. It’s not that he won’t play a smallball 5. It’s that he won’t play Obi — who can block shots from the weakside but is not at all what you call a rim protector — at the 5.
Of all those options, I think I’d pick, “Let’s just use Obi the right way.” TNFH has done fine work on what that “right way” is.
I think the ideal MLE target can carry a bit more usage than DiVincenzo. Barnes seems like the only semi-realistic target that fits that description, but as of now I think he returns to SAC. I don’t think he wants to back up RJ Barrett.
Of course, it’s possible we move RJ and Obi this offseason. Then all of the sudden Barnes is a perfect fit for us and has a clear path to tons of minutes (unless the aforementioned trade is for a wing). It’s also possible we move Randle, in which case the same thing would apply.
I’m on the record as saying I don’t think every starter/2,000+ minute player will be returning, so I wouldn’t be surprised if we give the MLE to someone who doesn’t appear to be a great fit right this second.
Alan, I get your point but I’m never ever going to be convinced that Thibs will do anything modern other than extraordinarily rarely. Sorry. The low-ceiling hustlebunny stuff at the 2023 trade deadline and in the playoffs sealed the deal for me.
You kind of called it in your earlier process post, which I generally agree with. I ain’t convincing any holdouts of my opinions of Thibs at this late date, and vice versa.
I totally get the hope that the leopard will change his spots — I really and truly do, trust me — but that’s one old-ass creaky leopard.
I will otherwise refrain from throwing the Thibs factor into personnel discussions that others want to start and have — other than on very rare occasions like this.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot and how maybe IQ should start at the 2 and Grimes should come off the bench. It seems like Grimes cutting, etc…would work better with the bench mob who runs a bit more and like you said, IHart could use his passing some with Grimes cutting.
I guess you lose a little size with IQ starting over Grimes and IQ is a GREAT 6th man. But I think IQ has the ability to start too.
I don’t know.
there’s really no point to divincenzo… the answer.. just liek with hart… isn’t your 6th 7th or 8th guys… the answer is going to be who and what your top 3 guys are doing…. in fact he probably could’ve been an alternative target to hart if we wanted to keep our pick… i would gladly play divincenzo and still have the #23 pick which probably would be cheaper than having whatever hart is signing for….
whoever is coming on board needs to be a very minimal investment… basically one.. max two years… for as close to the minimum as we can get.. or they’re draft picks… because any big investment likely requires them supplanting someone already in the rotation to maximize that value and we’re not good enough to be cannibalizing value for the sake of depth…
Yeah I think IQ should start and we should try to get some more playmaking depth, although I guess that’s easier said than done. But when IQ was hurt against the Heat we really only had one guy who could handle the ball under pressure and that was a problem.
@Z-Man
I-Hart isn’t 1/100 of Jokic on offense (I’m crazy but not that much 🙂 ), but he did show he can pass from the high-post, both with J-Hart and with Obi/Grimes (with them since the preseason).
He had even some great passes from there to Deuce, that Miles blew because he’s smaller and couldn’t finish.
And, as DRed recalls, Thibs used Noah in that spot with great results in the past (and Grimes is a very apt cutter).
100% agree DJ.
We already have a nice bunch of complementary players, some of them with solid chances to improve (but becoming a top-3 option is hard).
So we need to work on the current 1-3 options… or have faith in what we already have.
I also think we have a great set of role players. I think Grimes, IQ, Hart, Hart and Mitch could easily be most of the other guys on a championship team.
I assume we are trading one or more of our complementary players — depending on how you define RJ’s role on the team — and thus will need to fill out some of those spots. So in that circumstance, a DiVincenzo or Barnes makes much more sense than signing them when we’re otherwise running it back.
It sounds like I missed some fireworks yesterday after making a few posts and then ducking out to start preparing for the Belmont Stakes weekend.
“I still think Zach LaVine could be in the cards. KFS podcast made a great argument for adding him a few days ago.”
I missed that podcast, but maybe I can catch up today.
It really depends on what you think of his defense. When I look at his stats, he looks very good. Then I look at various on/off data for virtually his entire career and it screams there’s a problem somewhere. I’m assuming it’s defense but it could be other things too. IMO, that’s a problem all on its own, but next to Brunson, Thibs better know what he’s doing if we make that move. Pairing Brunson with Mitchell was part of why I was not on board with that deal. This is almost the same thing.
role players are inherently volatile and by their very nature unreliable… which is why teams generally like getting as many pieces as possible to make sure they have enough depth to survive a few people getting hurt or regressing…. but depth is a luxury… which is the whole point why giving up picks for depth pieces is minus ev….
josh hart.. is by all accounts a pretty decent role player… but this whole sect of his career where he’s been decent has just been a recent phenomena… and not much needs to happen in order for him to go back to being slightly negative…. the same goes for the others… i mean the whole first half of the season the second biggest whipping boy besides rj was ihart…. and for most of the season aside from a hot last month grimes couldn’t hit anything…
you just dont know what you’re going to get… but the place to look for certainty is not to get more of those guys… it’s looking to your main guys…. and having already relinquished an opportunity to get one of those it’s imperative that we dont squander more of our cap and draft picks chasing something we dont need….
Max, not disagreeing at all, just pointing out that Jokic is so effective as a passer in no small part because of his gravity. Without the gravity he’s still be a transcendent passer but the attention he commands results in cutters getting some extra space and better angles as the defense (and their eyes) gravitates to him. Hartenstein is pretty good at hitting open cutters, but that’s mostly in contrast to guys who are bad at it (see: Mitch.)
Here’s a nice breakdown of Jokic’s passing, ranking him with the great passers, period….not just centers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsE3ZcQ25Zw
I’m pretty much alone here with this but it’s interesting stuff. Boxscore stats only measure part of the picture, and when we’re able to quantify media hype’s influence on players psyche we’ll solve another large part of the puzzle.
A lot of the pro-LaVine argument hinges on the fact he’s replacing RJ who is terrible on defense and makes LaVine’s one-off numbers look immaculate.
Hater! 😉
I’m joking Z-Man, I agree 1000%,
Jokic is an All-Time great and a passing genius, a pleasure to watch.
And he already plays like an old man, so we have a chance to watch him for a long time!
I’m not sure that miami played poorly last night, more joker and murray just played really well…like unbeatable looking…
I wouldn’t trade RJ Barrett straight up for Zach LaVine. Not gonna spend any pointless time debating it or trying to convince anyone. Those who don’t get it, don’t get it — and likely never will. Is what it is. Not interested in mezzanine assets.
okay, not to be too contrary, but – joker definitely flops and flails about a bunch in the paint…
seriously, he got like an extra 3 or 4 whistles just from acting…
it would have been funny watching him and marcus smart simultaneously fall down as soon as they got near one another if boston had made the finals…
OMG PLEASE NO ZACH LAVINE!!! His left knee is an Amar’e/H20-level time bomb.
I wouldn’t trade RJ for Lavine either. For someone else sure. Lavine is overrated, overpaid, and overinjured.
He’s better than I thought he would be though.
“Jokic is an All-Time great and a passing genius, a pleasure to watch.
And he already plays like an old man, so we have a chance to watch him for a long time!”
One of the things that has impressed me most about Jokic is that he really runs the floor well for a guy his size. I think his commitment to fitness really shows on both ends and runs contrary to the old man game narrative…even though he plays that role well when he wants to.
But I totally agree with your point that he will be great for a long time and at this rate will be firmly embedded in the top-10 of all time convo.
Alan, I don’t subscribe to Macri and can’t read him, but I suspect he has a case of Knicks’ PTSD. The only logic for wanting DiVincenzo is that he’s a reasonably good player who could be affordable. If you are a bad team, you should go after such players. But we are not a bad team and we already have players just as good. DJphan and I think he is another Hart, (and not better than Hart) and ess-dog thinks he is Grimes (but he’s much older than Grimes). If you have Knicks PTSD, it’s fair to go after every shiny thing on the market. But if you believe we actually have a coherent team (and we do have that), then you look to fill holes or to upgrade. DiVincenzo is not that.
Reese,
Not trying to start shit but you can’t really make a statement like that and then turn around and say “I’m not interested in debating this with anyone.” If you aren’t interested in doing that, then don’t post your opinion on a blog.
I, for one, actually agree with you about trading RJ for Lavine. But come on dude. You can’t post that and then say “not interested in debating this.”
They address LaVine’s injury history on the KFS podcast too. They have some charts, so if you have the time to watch it on YouTube there’s a bit more context.
My only interest in Donte is a replacement piece if we trade our roleplayers for a star.
Zack LaVine is essentially a supermax contract with a slight discount due to his injury history. He’s the most glaring example of fool’s gold I can think of. I would never be in favor of acquiring a contract like that unless it was for a perennial all-nba alpha-type. I don’t know what LaVine is, but I know what he ain’t…and he ain’t that.
The difference is that, unlike Hart, he both can and will shoot from 3. Hart’s reluctance to do so in the Miami series really hurt us, because it made it so much easier for the Heat to guard the three players on the floor (some combo of Jalen, Julius, RJ, and IQ) who were genuine offensive threats. Having someone like DiVincenzo or Grimes out there opens up the floor a lot, even on nights when they’re not hitting from outside.
Which, again, is not a reason to sign DiVincenzo, unless it’s to fill a hole created by another trade. But the team needs more shooting, and by someone who plays defense (unlike Fournier), and he is an attainable guy who can provide that.
He did improve a lot on the fitness side.
Now it’s time for Luka to do the same…
Edit: And Zion?
Georges Niang could be an option at PF. He shoots 40% from 3 on high volume.
Can’t do much else but it’s not as if Obi was allowed to do anything else.
“Now it’s time for Luka to do the same…
Edit: And Zion?”
Absolutely.
Just for reference, I’m not advocating for acquiring KP but would prefer that 1000X over Zach LaVine. At least that deal would come with an escape hatch.
Professional basketball players blow out their knees. How can anyone say no to LaVine, but yes to George or Leonard? He played 77 games last year. He got off to a slow start but finished the year as explosive as ever. Defensively, the KFS argument was, he’s not as bad as RJ. Offensively, he is elite and would fit in seamlessly with Brunson and Randle. They also made a good argument that you get a lot of what OG brings to the table at a fraction of the cost in Hart. Fill out the roster with a bigger wing and they’re in business. We don’t know what superstar may shake loose, but we do know every player in the association and only a few would fit the bill. I could see Ingram as well, but we have a 2-year window to go for another star. Who else could be available?
Over the last 4 years, Zach LaVine has played how many more minutes than KP?
a) 500
b) 1000
c) 1500
d) 2000
A few months ago, I confused Macri with the “Locked on Knicks” guys, who I don’t think are very good. Macri and KFS are doing good work.
Without checking, I’m wondering if it’s a trick question and the answer is fewer.
“Professional basketball players blow out their knees. How can anyone say no to LaVine, but yes to George or Leonard?”
I agree, we should pass on all of them at the prices they will command.
“We don’t know what superstar may shake loose, but we do know every player in the association and only a few would fit the bill. I could see Ingram as well, but we have a 2-year window to go for another star. Who else could be available?”
I don’t know, but I disagree with the logic that “we only have a 2-year window so just go for the first ‘star’ that becomes available.” We still don’t have a true #1 alpha type….Brunson is excellent and all but he’s not that….neither is Randle. If you acquire LaVine, you are shutting the door on acquiring that guy for the next 4 years and risking that you will have an albatross on your hands that puts a hard ceiling on the team until 2027-28. I don’t think he’s worth that risk.
Alan, DiVincenzo’s career three point average is 0.363 and Hart’s is .350. That’s basically the same. DiVincenzo did take a few more, but he didn’t take as many and didn’t shoot as high a percentage as Grimes did. If we trade away what we have, fine, we can backfill with him; but otherwise, why bother?
LaVine is not the first star, right? Once Brunson opts out and gets a market rate contract the window would basically be closed on adding a third star. Of course, price is an issue with acquiring any of these guys.
“And he already plays like an old man, so we have a chance to watch him for a long time!”
So true, but he plays like an old man wrecking ball these days. I’m always amused to see the scratches and cuts all over his upper arms. He plays a lot like Embiid in the paint, just moves people out of the way.
“We don’t know what superstar may shake loose”
One of those available power forwards on that list was Thanassis. Just sayin’…
Not sure what the relevance of the question is. Zach is locked in on a max deal for the next 4 years and would cost significant assets to acquire. KP is in the last year of his deal and could theoretically decline his player option and sign as an unrestricted free agent on a more reasonable deal.
In the 4 years before we acquired Amar’e at virtually the same age that LaVine is right now, he had played 10,000 combined minutes.
Per 36 Donte takes more 3s than Grimes. This past year Hart only took 2.4 threes per 36 (down from his 4.8 career average). Donte took 7.2 per 36. (Grimes took 6.9).
Donte also takes more “open” 3s while Harts 3s mostly come on “wide open” 3s. So the percentages are a bit misleading over and above the difference in attempts.
What I can’t find is movement shooting, which also helps to provide context.
The other notable part of Donte’s game was his 4.8ast/36 with over a 2:1 ast:TO ratio. (Hart had 4.3 and a better ratio, but it never hurts to have more of l these guys).
DiVincenzo shoots more threes than Hart, and probably more difficult ones too. However, he is not what the team needs, unless they are thinking in packaging IQ, Grimes and RJ all together for someone. In that case, yes, Divincenzo makes sense.
It is a trick question, but it’s because KaVine played 2500 more minutes than KP. Going 5yrs back would include the year KP missed, LaVine played over 2000 min that year.
Zach LaVine has only played under 2000min 3 times. His rookie year (1900), his ACL injury year (1700), and the year after the ACL (650). He’s been incredibly durable through his career so far, except for one injury.
I point out the minute disparity because it doesn’t make sense to worry about LaVine’s injury history while advocating for a much more injury prone player.
I’m not sure what the market for KP is, but it’s probably pretty favorable for KP. And while he can opt out of his contract, we don’t have a means of clearing cap space for him without moving even more picks.
Amare had a microfracture knee surgery, different than what LaVine has had. According to this article, they don’t even practice microfracture knee surgery anymore (or are doing it much less and as a much later option).
Doesn’t this statement only apply if both Randle and RJ are still on the team by that time?
I guess I should say that LaVine didn’t have microfracture surgery as far as I can tell with a bit of googling
Owen, my friend wrote back regarding the smoking question, not actually definitive but amusing:
“Never heard of him. Seems to be a UC Davis college freshman who retweets lots of stuff. Regarding the cigarette thing, I was remarking to [spouse] that there are probably thousands of smokers who are suddenly terrified of smoke in their lungs. No idea on how a cigarette compares to wildfire smoke, but I expect there are lots of instant experts on Twitter who are expounding at length on the topic.”
Meanwhile my sister sent me this: Fox guest: “There’s just no health risk…We have this kind of air in India and China all the time, no public health emergency… this doesn’t kill anybody, this doesn’t make anybody cough, this is not a health event… particulate matter is just very fine soot, they’re innocuous.”
Trending on Twitter: #ClimateCult
And her upstate NY congressman tweeted this: “energy policies of the Progressive Left have been to destroy the fossil fuels industry, no matter the cost or consequences to working families.”
Thanks Raven!
Seems like we won’t have to worry about this much longer but another interesting case study in how public health information can be hard to figure out and disseminate.
This is amazing. And now i’m sad i missed the game.
Not at all. Even if neither are on the team, it will almost certainly be because their salaries have been replaced as opposed to disposed of entirely–they’re both under contract for 2025-2026 after all and it’s extraordinarily unlikely we trade them for expirings.
Make no mistake, Brunson’s next contract should be viewed as akin to a hard deadline to make substantial upgrades.
LaVine was in the 94th percentile for usage and the 80th percentile for efficiency among wings, despite a very slow start. He fits our offensive needs like a glove, and if he replaces RJ Barrett I don’t see us dropping off defensively at all.
If he’s on the market, we’re going to inquire and we’re going to be correct to do so.
So, it’d be the Brooklyn experience 2.0 with Booker instead of Harden. Good luck with that, Phoenix! 😀
brunson’s next contract isn’t the hard deadline… but it’s the point in the timeline you have to plan around…
it wouldn’t actually be all that big of a problem in itself but we also have IQ and Hart contracts to also worry about but they are coming onto the books and effectively trade out the fournier and rose contracts which means we are right at the cap for the forseeable future… with the brunson extension we are at the apron….
which means any contract now needs to equate to whatever is coming in… so in order to trade for lavine or beal next offseason both RJ and IQ would need to go…
i’m sure that’s not a preferable outcome so in order to include fournier in the deal you would have to make a deal now…. and then you have to work out another deal in the future once you’re at the apron should they choose….
@Swifty It kind of does. I would assume if one those guys is gone, it would be in a star trade. You also have to factor in New deals for Quickley and Hart. I haven’t done the math, but that’s the impression Katz gives.
I don’t think this anything like the Amare situation. That microfracture procedure ruined a few careers, if I remember correctly.
I hate when work interrupts my posting.
iirc Microfracture was a last resort after other surgeries did not mitigate the chronic pain related to cartilage damage. LaVine had arthroscopic surgery as recently as May 2022, as well as plasma-rich therapy and cortisone injections. He responded very well this last year, but as a guy who depends on explosiveness and lift, I’m not ready to say that his worries are behind him.
And as good as an offensive player that he is on paper, you have to wonder why CHI a guy who shot at a .607 TS% on high usage could only muster a BPM of 1.9 and a WS48 of .123. Or why a team with him, DeRozan and Vucevic, which had a losing record and topped out in the play-in, would be looking to trade him. If it’s to garner assets for a rebuild, then they are not selling him at a bargain price, and now it’s about losing assets on top of taking on his contract. If it’s as a salary dump, then that speaks for itself.
I don’t see him ever being worth to the Knicks what he is getting paid, even at full health….and at anything less than full health, he’s an albatross.
That’s basically a pre-Kemba knee heading toward its ultimate ca. 2026 destiny as a full-on Kemba knee.
Blown ACL, now cartilage issues, PRP and cortisone shots?
Steer entirely clear.
If Knicks make a deal for Zach LaVine, he has to play the two and we need a legit long 3&D player to play SF position, to both maximize talent and hide deficiencies of the starting lineup. This means they’re going for it and walk away from youth and talent. CP3 is could be the type of veteran locker room guy we could use during playoff runs over the next couple of years. Exhibit A: Kyle Lowry.
I’m not a doctor, so I don’t know the severity of LaVine’s injury.
However, I do know that he hasn’t had microfracture surgery and I have yet to see a report that he has arthritis.
Arthritis typically lags the underlying ligament/cartilage issues. He’s already had repetitive stress issues/pain necessitating cortisone injections.
I ain’t investing a dime in that knee. Somebody else can.
Kemba was also productive until he was 31.
LaVine’s contract ends at 31.
There will be rationalizations made, no question about it.
LaVine played 30% of his minutes at the 3 last year. Grimes takes the toughest assignment regardless of position anyways.
If there’s a long, athletic 3 available who can score efficiently on high usage, I’ll take them over LaVine. But those guys rarely make it onto the trade block.
The knee is obviously a concern, but I’m not sure why we should jump to the conclusion that he’ll fall apart immediately when he’s been relatively healthy every year since the ACL injury.
I don’t pay much attention to the rules because they are always changing and it doesn’t help me win money on the games.
Couldn’t we just trade for him using mostly filler contracts (Rose and Fournier), add some pick or player value to that, and worry about extending him cheaper later?
Is extend and trade a thing?
Just to be clear, I wouldn’t trade significant assets for a healthy Zach LaVine. The injury concerns are on top of that.
Re: KP I think a lot depends on what he does with his player option.
People were saying Chris Paul’s knees were shot 10 years ago. We just don’t know how much mileage LaVine has left. I was sure Dinwiddie would be washed after multiple knee surgeries, but he’s the same player he’s always been.
I agree with this.
I want to add something though.
From my perspective, if we move RJ, it should be in part to get “better” defensively, because if anything, over time RJ is likely to get better offensively. That’s why I keep coming back to OG. It sends RJ to Canada where he might also be happy, the Knicks improve on both sides next year, OG can play some PF, and that frees us to potentially move Obi for a pick or as part of another deal. It doesn’t fully solve the spacing issues, but it’s a step in the right direction. If Grimes takes another step, that’s damn good team and we still have some assets depending on what else goes with RJ for OG.
Hear you…sure, he can play SF and Grimes can guard wings 6’7” and under but does that maximize winning?
If they’re going for it, then Leon has to think about matching up with Tatum, Giannis, Siakam, Bam etc…. Since they have a hole with Randle, their SF must be extra long & athletic to be able to effectively match up against them. Otherwise, there is no point of trading youth and picks away for LaVine. My 2 Cents…
platelet rich plasma therapy is relatively common and benign and used mostly for pain management to either forego or delay surgery… embiid recently went through it but guys like kobe and curry have done it.. and even KP ….
arthritis is a risk for any knee injury but that’s generally why you want to be relatively young when it happens which Lavine is…. most of that is going to be a concern much later in his life after his playing career tho which is a sad reality but as a going concern within the next 4 years it’s not really much of one… the meniscus is actually a lot higher of a risk factor for arthritis which is something cp3 has been facing for years now but he’s still kicking around and played over 500 games…. same with westbrook…..
there’s been enough advancement with ACL reconstruction that it’s a lot like tommy john in which the procedure and the process are a lot more predictable and risk factors are mitigated…. of course occasionally you’ll get guys like degrom that have chronic issues but the recent track record of acl recoveries in the last decade is really strong….
And again KP has a worse injury history than LaVine. He’s had surgery on both knees, including one to fix the same ACL injury LaVine had. LaVine’s rep for his injuries is much worse than what he’s actually done.
Not every knee injury is the same and we shouldn’t assume they are all the same. I don’t know where LaVine’s knee stands today, but finding only the worst case scenarios isn’t fair.
Jamal Crawford tore his ACL in his 2nd year. He played 80 games at age 37 and another 64 at age 38.
This is meaningless. Chicago sucked.
@Strat I would love to add OG and LaVine. I think we might have the assets to add them both.
40, 43, 45, 48 are the numbers that = no on Zach Lavine. If something goes wrong with his knees that is a crippling contract.
Maybe OG is not going to be available at a price that makes any sense and maybe I’m not giving enough consideration to how much time we have to make a big splash, but most of the players we are discussing are not the dream player given our current team and needs. I feel like a guy looking for the perfect Mrs. Stratomatic but throwing in the towel and settling too soon.
OG is the perfect SF/PF for this team. I think we should be very aggressive going after him and then worry about a big splash after we see how that works, how much better Grimes and Quick get etc…
If he’s impossible to land and no other perfect players are available, then do a few tweaks, run it back, and see what shakes loose at the trade deadline. As TNFH says, there’s risk in that too. But I think we still have time.
I’m not a huge LaVine fan, but I’d be good with that too. That’s a solid team.
The only players I can think of who fit the necessary criteria are Jaylen Brown and OG.
It’s entirely possible both guys are kept by their current team or send them elsewhere.
At that point do you still go after LaVine?
Note:
LaVine has played 700 more minutes than Brown over the last 4 years.
He’s played 1600 more than OG.
LaVine is not the injury prone one.
This JJ v SAS interaction is priceless.
https://twitter.com/clutchpointsapp/status/1666844617994563584?s=46&t=0wqff4cNt-sCGcDs-uMExw
I think the point is he’s preemptive. You likely have to move one of the wings in front of him to get better, so shop for the replacement now.
But the full MLE seems high for a guy like him. Especially in the coming market.
ESPN makes me dumber every time I watch more than 5 seconds of it
POINTLESS HOT TAKE
RAGE ENGAGEMENT
TWITTER DISCUSSION
GAMBLING TIPS
[commercial break]
GAMBLE HARDER
DRINK SHITTY BEER
GAMBLE HARDER OVER HERE
BUY CRYPTO
EAT SHITTY FOOD
[back to programming]
GAMBLE SMARTER WE SWEAR
HOT TAKE
SOCIAL MEDIA COMMENTARY
GAMBLE GAMBLE GAMBLE
eventually the same sort of people will be like, “Who cares that there’s no more inhabitable land? Did you never learn to swim?”
“The only players I can think of who fit the necessary criteria are Jaylen Brown and OG.
It’s entirely possible both guys are kept by their current team or send them elsewhere.
At that point do you still go after LaVine?”
I say yes you go after LaVine now if the price isn’t too high. We still have solid defensive wings in Hart, IQ, and Grimes. We can add someone with some size like Vanderbilt or Watanabe later. LaVine’s don’t grow on trees. I think he’s a perfect fit for us and I don’t see a whole lot of competition out there for him. I don’t see teams trapping Brunson so freely with LaVine standing behind the arc. Picture him standing there instead of Hart against Miami.
I would add Brandon Ingram to the list.
“eventually the same sort of people will be like, “Who cares that there’s no more inhabitable land? Did you never learn to swim?”
Well, keep thinking positively. DeSantis’s Florida will be one third submerged by 2100. That’s only 77 years from now.
#HeatCulture
and that’s the part that’s crazy… i mean this is a similar reason behidn the hart trade right? that we need guys like this even if we get a star… which is true… but you can get these guys anyway for really cheap… why spend a pick when you can just use cap space? why even use a lot of cap space?
because the risk is that the cost can restrict your ability to obtain a star or they might not even be the right fit with said stars or any number of things can happen….. it’s just much better to get those guys when you actually have everything else figured out…because they are freely available and the much better players are not… which is how most of the elite teams operate…. this is textbook win curve theory across almost every sport…
there’s going to be approximately 35-40mm tied up into two bench pieces…. and that’s already way way too much…. and going after another piece that probably would cost significant and quite likely long term money would be another strategic mistake… you can’t just pile these up and not eventually pay for it.. and you know we already have…
I’m going to use the Lex Luther strategy and buy some future oceanfront property in Nebraska. 😉
Strat, you made me go look up the official preview for 2012, a truly dumb movie (but one that argues against your plan). Never really understood why they named an end-of-the-world apocalypse movie three years hence, but the preview reminded me that the year 2012 was a Mayan prediction.
Well, if you say climate change will kill everyone in a thousand years nobody seems to care
I don’t think so.
The idea here is that IQ or Grimes may have to be traded to get a star, so we preemptively get their replacement.
I’m pretty pro-culture, too, which may put me in the minority. Donte has played on the Warriors, Bucks, and Villanova. I would be happy to have a guy from those cultures here… at the right price (the full MLE strikes me as too much, though).
Counterpoint:
DiVincenzo can shoot and play defense.
There are currently two players on the Knicks who can do that (IQ and Grimes).
I think we could use a third. Particularly one with a championship pedigree. But it has to be part of a larger strategy.
For example…
1 – Trade RJ Barrett
2 – Move IQ into Barrett’s role
3 – Move Donte into IQ’s role
If you’re not thinking about trading RJ, it makes less sense.
DJphan, you make a good point about the Knicks having used their draft picks for the past two years in trades so that now we don’t have players from the two recent draft classes, but I don’t see where you get the figure of 35 to 40 million tied up in two role players. If Divincenzo is available for significantly less than that and is as good or better than Hart that’s a good comp for Hart’s new contract. And who is the other nearly 20 million player?
I was confused by that, too, KNNINJ. I ended up assuming he meant IQ on his next contract.
Big picture… the Knicks cannot be in a position where RJ, IQ, and Hart are making $60+ million, and two of them are on the bench.
I think the Hart dissent is a lot more clear now, btw. Are the Knicks really better off giving this guy $80-100mm than they would be if they had a decent pick in this draft and could use that cap space more wisely? It is, at the very least, debatable.
I mean, Hart did play fucking amazing in 25 regular season games with the Knicks: .586 fg%, .519 3pt%, 7 rebounds/3.6 assists/1.4 steals per game, .179 WS48, 3.4 BPM…
I know he kinda shat the bed against Miami, but so did the rest of the team. I imagine they’ll sign him to a contract that will make him happy.
Just not in time for my post above I started reading Hollinger’s new article in the athletic about the top free agents on the market. DiVincenzo is in the tier “Solid pkaters who help”. Hollinger estimates he is worth about $16M but thinks the market is weak for that sort of player and he may not get that much. To quote:
Note that while it may seem odd to see a role player in the list of top free agents, Hollinger points out at the beginning of the article that top players almost never become free agents now because they typically get re-signed and extended. He writes that the it is a “ free-agent market short on stars but as deep in quality starters as any I can remember”. The full link is here.
https://theathletic.com/4590137/2023/06/08/nba-top-free-agents-kyrie-irving-james-harden/
And by Hollinger’s calculation, Hart is worth much more than DiVincenzo.
Josh Hart slightly pricier than I expected. I think he’d give us a lot more production than RJ but I like the 13 million we were throwing around better.
I would not pay Josh Hart. Bad move.
Those numbers in the Hollinger article strike me as pretty crazy.
The top 10:
$50mm for Kyrie
$47mm for Harden
$47mm for VanVleet
$39mm for Porzingis
$30mm for Miles Bridges
$27mm for D’Angelo Russell
$26mm for Cam Johnson
$25mm for Jakob Poeltl
According to Twitter, Hart is looking for around $18M annually. That is more than I expected, but a lot less than Hollinger’s valuation. But note that Hollinger’s valuation is derived from a formula using a player’s recent production, his age and other variables. It is not a prediction of market value. For an example of how those can differ, see Kyrie Irving.
And Hubert, I agree 100%, some of the numbers do seem crazy.
Re-signing Hart is a no-brainer. Having solid players signed to non-max deals is very helpful in facilitating trades. Also, he’s good at basketball.
catching some of the women’s college world series…it’s been a while since I caught a game…the level of athleticism amongst the athletes is amazing…
not sure why I still get surprised sometimes watching women’s sport…
the college portal program can definitely bring the best athletes together…
beautiful stadium there in oklahoma…
Hahaha no
Maybe Poetl, and probably not TOO far for Cam and Harden, but otherwise those numbers are off by a considerable margin, I’d say. 20% or more.
I guess a desperate team (hello Mark Cuban!) could give Kyrie $50mm, but even that is no sure thing.
$47mm for Van Vleet. Come on.
On the flip side, when are people going to acknowledge that despite Brunson not looking like a 1A or having the draft pedigree of a 1A, he’s still a 1A? Other than his defense, there’s nothing he doesn’t give you. Scores lots of points at good efficiency even when schemed against, great leadership, fantastic clutch player, plenty of grit, huge heart…dude is a clear 1A in my book. Yet the same bozos who think van Vleet could get $47mm (lol) write pieces about how the Knicks don’t have a star.
I believe this is universally acknowledged now. Spoelstra practically sealed it.
Mark this down, btw…
the biggest internal improvement coming our way next year is going to come from Brunson’s whistle.
He didn’t have the respect of the refs this year. He earned it. It’s coming.
i think you answered your own question but IQ is going to command something in the neighborhood of 18-25mm along with hart’s likely ~18mm…. if that’s not already clear…. this stuff was known long ago…
anyway you cut it … that amount of money to TWO bench pieces is a relatively large investment… the denver nuggets in comparison paid their entire bench 16mm…and the heat paid 36mm… the warriors the most capped out of all teams paid 30mm…
it’s really only the celtics that invests that amount of money towards the end of their playoff rotation and they’re still well short of what we would be spending… but that’s also informative because they only just started making that investment in brogdon and horford when they were ready to contend… same with derrick white…. they figured out 1-4 first and then filled in the blanks when they needed to….
that’s how you operate on the win curve properly… and skipping steps introduces a lot of unnecessary risks that makes things potentially very messy if things dont go exactly as you envisioned…
that’s on top of the choice of paying hart 18mm or divicenzo 16mm… these guys are absolutely really close value wise and you just gave up a first because you had to have hart right now and you had to go for it this year? in isolation that’s terrible trade and context doesn’t make it all that much better….
if people are honest with themselves i’m sure that feels a little icky even in hindsight… and eventually you literally pay for it… and we’re about to find out how much very soon….
That’s crazy.
I’m not saying you’re crazy, mind you. I know this what everyone expects. I just think it’s charity.
He has no leverage. No draft pedigree. Injury concerns. A new CBA that’s expected to crush the middle class to be scared of. And he just shit the bed in the playoffs.
I’d offer him 4 years, $48mm.
If he has the balls to bet on himself in the face of everything I mentioned, good for him.
By the way, if those prices in Hollinger’s article are close to correct, RJ’s contract doesn’t look so bad and may be good value in a year or so.
The Heat pay $45M to Lowry & Duncan Robinson alone.
The Lakers spent $25M on Mo Bamba and Malik Beasley and they barely saw the court in the playoffs.
The Nuggets had a cheap bench and they played like it during the regular season. Bruce Brown is going to leave this offseason unless he gives up a lot of money.
You only need 3 or 4 good bench pieces. Centers come cheap and the last spot can be filler.
Although there’s more punitive measures with the new CBA, the new TV deal is coming soon and these numbers probably won’t seem all that crazy.
LOL at this Mets pitching staff. And there’s nothing on the farm coming any time soon.
kyle lowry started 44 out of 55 games this year….
still reading on the civilization stuff…seeing what’s known for the last 50k years…amazing just how slowly people spread across europe (around 45k bp), great waterways…it was a warm period…people seem to produce at high rates, even in less than ideal conditions…
i think the number is like 1,000 able bodied folks of both genders to propagate a population…
interesting to corelate the weather with the migration and known artifacts…can’t guess at stuff, gotta have some evidence – there’s a lot, but, not in a promising 50k to 10k way – large sedentary tribes (not sure what that pop number is) doing long distance trade – but, no civilization…
at some point would like to learn more about their gear, radar stuff in particular…
all that to say – i came across some really cool cave paintings that i’d like to buy 🙂
oh yeah – found it pleasing to read that folks most likely had a lot more leisure time 20 to 30 thousand years ago…
that’s curious about the low pops…they were safe, warm, fed, most likely with accessible waterways…why not more people? need to understand the diet thing better, roots, tubers, fruit, grains, protein stuff…
Trivia question:
What do Al Horford, Amar’e Stoudemire, Rashard Lewis, Jermaine O’Neal, Allan Houston, Dikembe Mutumbo, and Horace Grant all have in common?
a) They all led the league in BPM.
b) They all popped ‘roids.
c) They are all best friends with World Wide Wes
d) They are all Jewish.
e) They all were at one point the 2nd highest paid players in the NBA despite not even being in the top-20 in talent because the crazy numbers almost always win out over the rational numbers during the July free-agent bonanza.
oh yeah, also learned the oldest wooden structure (no doubt found in some mud 🙂 ) dates to 7k bp – some wooden water well crank device thing…sorry, best i can do…
oldest structure – for a moment i thought it was this absolutely beautiful japanese complex (horyuji temple), place of worship, built around 700 something ce with 2,000 year old japanese cypress…that’s just so boss…that would be a nice place to visit…
turns out though – it’s king midas’ dad’s tomb…his name was gordias…he had this structure made of juniper, sealed in clay, buried by a lot of earth – large burial mound basically…anyways, that was like 700 something bp, like 1,500 years earlier…god bless mud and clay…
d) Jewish.
DJ, you have to take in consideration the context, Heat spend around 100M in their top3, Nuggets around 110M and Warriors around 120M. That of course limits what you can offer to your bench, and also makes your bench not a need in the way teams like the Celtics (~80M) or Knicks (~75M), because we still need a 1A star unless someone already on the roster steps up. I think both IQ and Hart are viewed as starters in Leon’s eyes, because when we’ll trade for a star, we’ll send starters and they’ll fill the vacant spots. I think it’s a logical plan. But i also hope the numbers don’t get to what you stated. Maybe around 30M for both would be a good number.
And, come on, i love Brunson but he’s not a 1A star… that category is reserved to two way players. He’s very very good, but he’s not otherwordly good on offense to make up for his defensive shortcomings.