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Knicks Morning News (2023.02.02)

  • ASK IRA: Will Heat have to play defense against Knicks at NBA trading deadline? – Yahoo News
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, February 2, 2023 6:05:00 AM

    ASK IRA: Will Heat have to play defense against Knicks at NBA trading deadline?  Yahoo News

  • Jalen Brunson is Earning Every Penny From the Knicks – The Wright Way Network
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, February 2, 2023 5:05:57 AM

    Jalen Brunson is Earning Every Penny From the Knicks  The Wright Way Network

  • Heat vs. Knicks: Start time, where to watch, what’s the latest – Hoops Hype
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, February 2, 2023 3:39:37 AM

    Heat vs. Knicks: Start time, where to watch, what’s the latest  Hoops Hype

  • Knicks Secure Third Straight Win; Oust Herd 115-111 – OurSports Central
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:36:42 PM

    Knicks Secure Third Straight Win; Oust Herd 115-111  OurSports Central

  • This Knicks-Bulls Trade Features DeMar DeRozan – NBA Analysis Network
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 10:26:11 PM

    This Knicks-Bulls Trade Features DeMar DeRozan  NBA Analysis Network

  • Knicks understand magnitude of ‘very important’ matchup with Heat – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:34:00 PM

    Knicks understand magnitude of ‘very important’ matchup with Heat  New York Post

  • More details emerge on issues between Cam Reddish, Knicks – Yardbarker
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:15:39 PM

    More details emerge on issues between Cam Reddish, Knicks  Yardbarker

  • RJ Barrett’s benching down stretch raises questions as Tom Thibodeau turns to others – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:39:00 PM

    RJ Barrett’s benching down stretch raises questions as Tom Thibodeau turns to others  New York Post

  • Russell Westbrook III fills stat sheet Tuesday against Knicks – FantasyPros
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 7:38:00 PM

    Russell Westbrook III fills stat sheet Tuesday against Knicks  FantasyPros

  • Knicks Rumors: New York Favored to Land Chris Paul if He’s Traded – OddsChecker
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 5:28:00 PM

    Knicks Rumors: New York Favored to Land Chris Paul if He’s Traded  OddsChecker

  • 2023 NBA Trade Deadline: Potential Targets For New York Knicks – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 5:01:46 PM

    2023 NBA Trade Deadline: Potential Targets For New York Knicks  Sports Illustrated

  • RJ Barrett’s comment to Cam Reddish after being benched in Knicks loss is worrisome – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 5:00:00 PM

    RJ Barrett’s comment to Cam Reddish after being benched in Knicks loss is worrisome  Daily Knicks

  • Ex-Knicks star Amar’e Stoudemire feels vindicated after domestic violence charges get dropped – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 4:56:58 PM

    Ex-Knicks star Amar’e Stoudemire feels vindicated after domestic violence charges get dropped  Empire Sports Media

  • Knicks Ideal Trade Suitor For Raptors’ O.G. Anunoby? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 4:40:19 PM

    Knicks Ideal Trade Suitor For Raptors’ O.G. Anunoby?  Sports Illustrated

  • Pete Davidson Debuts Slam Dunk Shaved Head at New York Knicks Game – E! NEWS
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 4:29:00 PM

    Pete Davidson Debuts Slam Dunk Shaved Head at New York Knicks Game  E! NEWS

  • Pete Davidson is unrecognizable as he steps out with new buzz cut at Knicks game – Yahoo News
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 4:23:21 PM

    Pete Davidson is unrecognizable as he steps out with new buzz cut at Knicks game  Yahoo News

  • Knicks’ Jalen Brunson has January to remember as All-Star campaign continues – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 4:09:45 PM

    Knicks’ Jalen Brunson has January to remember as All-Star campaign continues  Empire Sports Media

  • Knicks Fan TV’s Alex Trataros on the Knicks’ overtime loss to the Lakers – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 3:45:00 PM

    Knicks Fan TV’s Alex Trataros on the Knicks’ overtime loss to the Lakers  New York Post

  • NBA trade rumors: New York Knicks, Phoenix Suns among teams to watch for OG Anunoby – cleveland.com
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 2:46:00 PM

    NBA trade rumors: New York Knicks, Phoenix Suns among teams to watch for OG Anunoby  cleveland.com

  • Emma Stone and Husband Dave McCary Have Rare Date Night at Knicks Game: See Photos – Us Weekly
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 12:17:09 PM

    Emma Stone and Husband Dave McCary Have Rare Date Night at Knicks Game: See Photos  Us Weekly

  • Would ESPN’s proposed trades for the Nets and Knicks work? – Hoops Habit
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 12:00:00 PM

    Would ESPN’s proposed trades for the Nets and Knicks work?  Hoops Habit

  • Woe-vertime; Knicks Waste Brunson’s 37 as LeBron, Lakers Prevail at MSG – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:53:41 AM

    Woe-vertime; Knicks Waste Brunson’s 37 as LeBron, Lakers Prevail at MSG  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks Notes: Bey, Anunoby, Barrett – hoopsrumors.com
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:27:00 AM

    Knicks Notes: Bey, Anunoby, Barrett  hoopsrumors.comKnicks 2023 NBA trade deadline buzz: NY comfortable offering three first-rounders for OG Anunoby  Yahoo SportsKnicks willing to pay high draft pick price for Raptors’ OG Anunoby  New York Post

  • RJ Barrett clearly frustrated after overtime benching: ‘I have nothing to say’ – New York Daily News
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:23:43 AM

    RJ Barrett clearly frustrated after overtime benching: ‘I have nothing to say’  New York Daily News

  • NBA rumors: OG Anunoby could be headed to the New York Knicks | Locked On NBA – WKYC.com
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 10:51:00 AM

    NBA rumors: OG Anunoby could be headed to the New York Knicks | Locked On NBA  WKYC.com

  • Pete Davidson shows off shaved head at Knicks game – Page Six
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 10:46:00 AM

    Pete Davidson shows off shaved head at Knicks game  Page Six

  • New York Knicks trying to drag Heat into something they want no part of – Miami Herald
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 10:23:00 AM

    New York Knicks trying to drag Heat into something they want no part of  Miami Herald

  • Knicks Trade Rumors: New York interested in young Eastern Conference wing – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 10:00:00 AM

    Knicks Trade Rumors: New York interested in young Eastern Conference wing  Daily Knicks

  • LeBron James takes shot at Celtics, refs after Lakers win over Knicks – MassLive.com
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:58:00 AM

    LeBron James takes shot at Celtics, refs after Lakers win over Knicks  MassLive.com

  • Mavs & Jalen Brunson: The 3 Goof-Ups That ‘Freed’ Him to the Knicks – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:52:24 AM

    Mavs & Jalen Brunson: The 3 Goof-Ups That ‘Freed’ Him to the Knicks  Sports Illustrated

  • Pros and Cons: Should the Knicks trade for OG Anunoby? – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:26:15 AM

    Pros and Cons: Should the Knicks trade for OG Anunoby?  Yahoo Sports

  • Tom Thibodeau vaguely explains the botched Knicks final play in regulation in OT loss to Lakers – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:13:56 AM

    Tom Thibodeau vaguely explains the botched Knicks final play in regulation in OT loss to Lakers  Empire Sports Media

  • “Where Are the Lakers”: Fans Erupt in Rage as Warriors and Knicks Get Left Behind by Pat Riley’s Heat in an Ugly Race – EssentiallySports
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:10:00 AM

    “Where Are the Lakers”: Fans Erupt in Rage as Warriors and Knicks Get Left Behind by Pat Riley’s Heat in an Ugly Race  EssentiallySports

  • Knicks’ Immanuel Quickley won’t stop talking on defense: ‘Boom, I know what play that is’ – The Athletic
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:52:30 AM

    Knicks’ Immanuel Quickley won’t stop talking on defense: ‘Boom, I know what play that is’  The Athletic

  • Knicks’ Tom Thibodeau explains RJ Barrett benching against Lakers – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:16:14 AM

    Knicks’ Tom Thibodeau explains RJ Barrett benching against Lakers  Yahoo Sports

  • Rui Hachimura comes up big for the Lakers with critical block during … – Los Angeles Times
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:00:15 AM

    Rui Hachimura comes up big for the Lakers with critical block during …  Los Angeles Times

  • What was Tom Thibodeau thinking on the Knicks’ final play of regulation? – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:00:00 AM

    What was Tom Thibodeau thinking on the Knicks’ final play of regulation?  Daily Knicks

  • NBA alternate jerseys (Lakers, Knicks, Celtics) are an eyesore – Deadspin
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, February 1, 2023 7:54:00 AM

    NBA alternate jerseys (Lakers, Knicks, Celtics) are an eyesore  Deadspin

  • 77 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.02.02)”

    Ah, Groundhog Day — the holiday that seems most apt for this particular franchise.

    Punxsutawney Phil saw his shadow, which means six more weeks of Cam Reddish.

    “Punxsutawney Phil saw his shadow, which means six more weeks of Cam Reddish.”

    rotflmao

    Post of the year so far.

    An incredible stat from Macri’s newsletter this morning, among players who have played 1,000+ minutes this season RJ Barrett is dead last in deflections per-36 minutes at 0.8.

    This is why people harp on his TS%–he simply does not bring enough (read: anything) to the table in other areas to justify being an inefficient scorer. He needs to at least get to league-average, “usage soaker” level efficiency to even arguably be a net positive player.

    This is in sharp contrast to someone like Quickley, who is already above the 60th percentile in scoring efficiency among combo guards (CTG categorizes him as a wing right now, but that seems like a mistake) and buttresses that with an 84th percentile defensive rebound rate, an 89th percentile TOV% (in the good way), and by every conceivable measure, observation, etc. has been a defensive stud.

    I truly don’t care to harp on the guy, but the performance of one of the highest paid, highest usage players on the team is actually worthy of a healthy amount of discussion. It comes up a lot because it matters a lot.

    It feels like the Knicks are going reverse the order of their original plan.

    The original plan was to add Mitchell and retain enough assets to land another player. That player would most likely be someone like OGA. But the cost of Mitchell was very very high (I’ve argued it was a bad fit anyway). So they either passed or got shut out by the Cavs offer depending on who you believe. Now it appears they are going to go ahead with the “other” deal (OGA, Bey, Trent Jr..) and try to save enough for the star later.

    I have no issue with that, but of the players we are rumored to be interested in, I think OGA is clearly the best two way player and fit for what we need. Bey is not a defender and Trent Jr is more of another SG. I think it’s OGA or do nothing unless they have other targets we don’t know about. Height, length, defense, and outside shooting is what we need at the SF position. If we are going to be giving up picks, there can be no more consolation prizes. Get the target or pass again.

    Agree. OGA is the player that is available that makes the most sense and allows us to hold assets. If RJ can be the center piece great. If not I’d be willing to part with Grimes and less draft capital or Obi and more draft capital.

    An incredible stat from Macri’s newsletter this morning, among players who have played 1,000+ minutes this season RJ Barrett is dead last in deflections per-36 minutes at 0.8.

    wanna guess who is lower than rj and second lowest of all players w 500 mins

    It’s becoming clear that RJ is like Zach Wilson, a young high pick that just hasn’t learned to do what he needs to do. You would hope he would be a better defender, that he would become an amazing 3pt shooter. He’s neither.

    I would send him home to Canada as part of a trade for OG. They love him there.

    How much of an upgrade is OG over RJ alone in the starting lineup?

    “wanna guess who is lower than rj and second lowest of all players w 500 mins”

    Gotta be Dillon Brooks, who actually starts for the #2 team in the West

    It has to be someone on the Knicks. It has to be either Reddish or Jericho.

    I am going to go with Cam. Having two dookies in the same bucket would be hilarious.

    I keep saying this, but I’ll say it again: it’s not just that RJ isn’t very good, it’s that his development arc is a flat line. He improved from his rookie to sophomore year, then has not budged. There have been really no incremental improvements. So I’m not expecting a major leap, given the glacial rate at which the Maple Mamba seems to process new information. 22 yo RJ is the same player as 20 yo RJ, and that ain’t good.

    RJ isn’t getting better partially because RJ hasn’t had a reason to get better. He plays and plays no matter what he does. And now he got paid for being who he is, not for who he should be…at least that’s how he probably sees it and has no reason not to.

    I hope both he and Thibs wake up and smell the coffee. Nothing good is going to happen if he is coddled, yet Thibs will have a real problem on his hand if he benches him.

    No bueno.

    RJ has improved his shooting a “little”, but it has been accompanied by virtually no progress passing or in his Mamba attitude towards personal stats. IMO he also took a step back on defense this year. The net is not good.

    I will guess that the answer is Xavier “The Human Deflection Machine” Tillman, because only an ironic answer would make sense.

    (ps, what’s a deflection?)

    it’s jericho.

    rj has made some improvements. he definitely got better with his right hand, both handle and finishing. he added a few wrinkles in the lane, especially the drop step up and under, and got better at changing speeds with the ball. his short range decision making is modestly better, but still poor. i don’t think he’s a terrible defender but his defense seemed obscenely overrated last year. he does some things well but he’s the opposite of a disruptor.

    So what we seem to be saying here is that Thibs is a very poor developmental coach, largely because he plays favorites and only holds certain players accountable.

    Sounds correct to me.

    RJ Barrett cannot be bad because he has cleared that elite bar and is now averaging an idyllic 20.1 points per game, the clearest sign of a burgeoning all-star.

    donnie, a deflection is when someone asks why you spend all day talking about the knicks and tv shows when you claim to have never seen a basketball game in your life and only watched television once when al gore did a harmonica only vhi unplugged concerto and you respond with a joke about how hard it is to compost with 18 kids.

    RJ isn’t getting better partially because RJ hasn’t had a reason to get better. He plays and plays no matter what he does

    The hope with RJ was that he had the mentality and drive to improve. I thought he did based on press reports of his off-season regimen, etc. And he talked the talk especially him taking pride in getting better at D. But maybe the skills just are not there, he knows it and grabbed the extension rather than betting on himself, and now Thibs belatedly is accepting it. Could get worse, so if he winds up in Toronto I won’t bemoan the lost upside if the return gives us a better player today.

    “So what we seem to be saying here is that Thibs is a very poor developmental coach, largely because he plays favorites and only holds certain players accountable.

    Sounds correct to me.”

    Don’t know about others, but I’m certainly not saying that…

    the deflections thing is not surprising given that’s highly correlated with steals… rj’s has been a poor defender and it’s apparent through his steal/block rates which have ramifications in other areas…. and not just on the defensive end either…

    but again… some of the comps to IQ.. in particular the shooting relating ones …. just two weeks ago RJ and IQ were exactly tied in TS… that IQ has been hot is good… but we are taking snapshots at the peak of volatility and annointing saviors everyday it seems…. a few weeks ago we were talking about Grimes drawing shades of klay thompson and now he’s shooting barely better at 3 than RJ is….

    and look RJ has deserved a lot of criticism… he’s not where he should be at this stage in his career… the range of outcomes are definitely narrowing and has been narrowing … i’ve been concerned since midway last year… but there is absolutely still hope for him to be a good to very good player… this is just what you have to deal with in young imperfect players… which is what he always was…

    what exactly are the alternatives? that the guy you think is trash is going to be sent off to canada for a guy who’s really good? to masai no less? despite our collection of superstar players.. we are going to be the 7th seed and unless we empty the cupboard (and even if we do) it’s not going to be much more than that…

    so whether you think IQ should be starting or RJ buried… that’s not going to change that equation one bit… the whole idea with tanking which 80% of this board is in favor of is to play the young kids with the highest upside in the hopes that they can develop…. so you play them and see where they end up…

    we’re not getting any high draft picks to replace RJ… we’re capped out and unlikely to even get someone of his age and caliber on the open market for half his price anyway…. and a deal to upgrade over him is going to cost a whole lot… this is not unlike what we’ve had with randle… TWICE… and while nobody here was exactly patient with him in either occurrences… just being patient by accident by not having any better alternatives can save you from making a grave mistake….

    Meanwhile, the only guy on the team that draws charges on the Knicks is Jalen Brunson (he leads the league btw which is impressive)

    (The day I see RJ step into the lane and get run over by an opponent is the same day that Deuce makes multiple 3 pointers and pigs go airborne)

    Hey— I just did my own independent research into what a deflection was (I learned that from strat) — you all forgot to mention who was leading the league in deflections!

    (He’s also leading the league in deloobrecs btw)

    I don’t know what the alternatives are with RJ. I would unload him anywhere we can for whatever we can. But I doubt other front offices are missing what we are noticing.

    and mind you this is the trappings of the strategy of what this front office is employing… if you’re tanking or doing the hinkie thing… you can afford to only hang onto the super obvious guys who are panning out while recycling out any marginal guy…. because you just go back to the well that is the draft…. we had one chance with a top 5 pick with RJ then we signed some vets.. then we had another chance at a top 10 pick with Obi.. then we signed even more vets….

    we’re not getting those picks back for awhile and so we’re forced to see these through.. that’s what makes this strategy inferior… you have to thread the needle and hit big on these or you keep running through the mediocre treadmill… and we’ve had better than average luck in a number of areas and we’re still here…. god forbid randle put in another year like last year or else it’d be #11 pick all over again…

    “I don’t know what the alternatives are with RJ. I would unload him anywhere we can for whatever we can.”

    is whatever we can include someone like Austin Rivers? we can all agree that’s a waste right?

    look.. if it’s any comfort… portland is going through similar things with Anfernee Simons.. who in a lot of ways is very similar to RJ .. they were trapped into having to give him a huge extension also because they can’t get anyone like him anywhere else…. and so they have to see him pan out… and he’s inching in some aspects and doing ok but disappointing in others… for my money i’d rather have RJ but many teams go through this also and have to make these difficult choices but more often than not you’re just stuck with the guy you drafted or just literally having to pickup Austin Rivers….

    So what we seem to be saying here is that Thibs is a very poor developmental coach.

    So what about IQ? OR does Thibs only get blamed when a young player doesn’t develop and no credit when they do?

    I’m really confused!

    rj’s contract doesn’t look great, but i would guess we could still trade him for positive value to a few gms given his age, pedigree, points and position, albeit nothing too exciting. would troy weaver trade bey and bojan for rj and cam (and a minimum guy to make the poison pill $$ work)? i kinda feel like he would.

    Z-Man, you said this:

    “RJ isn’t getting better partially because RJ hasn’t had a reason to get better. He plays and plays no matter what he does. And now he got paid for being who he is, not for who he should be…at least that’s how he probably sees it and has no reason not to.”

    Isn’t this Thibs’ fault? And if it’s Thibs’ fault, doesn’t that mean Thibs is a poor developmental coach, or at the very least has done a poor job developing a very important young player for us? “He plays no matter what he does” seems to be a damning indictment of Coach Combover.

    Something Thibs could’ve experimented with is RJ at the 4 as he seems completely inept at guarding the perimeter at the moment.

    At the beggining of last season he was looking like a monster on defense locking up the likes of Beal and Lavine. Not sure where that all went but he probably needs to drop some weight to gain more mobility.

    I don’t know. Maybe development is partially on the player, partially on the coach? Maybe there’s a type of player (skill set, mentality, etc) that Thibs is good at developing and a type of player he isn’t good at developing. Maybe RJ got the bag and doesn’t care anymore? Or maybe he does care but his ego is a stumbling block right now?

    I don’t know. You can have the best teacher in the world and if the student doesn’t want to learn, there isn’t much you can do. Conversely, a really motivated student can reach new heights of understanding even if they’re at a bad school or have a bad teacher.

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. Some players are clearly getting better under Thibs. I think RJ is probably getting coached as much as any other player; he’s just not improving as much as some of them are. The blame for that is certainly not entirely on Thibs.

    Edit: My comment crossed with Walker’s. We are saying the same thing.

    JK, Thibs has his warts and blind spots. So does nearly every coach in the association. However, in my opinion, his “blind spot: re: RJ doesn’t justify a sweeping generalization that he is a “poor developmental coach.”

    I have some major qualms with his stubbornness: RJ’s longstanding immunity from losing PT is among them, So is Obi’s dearth of PT, and the concept of permantly benching guys in general.

    But RJ is not being “poorly developed” in my view, even though he seems to be “developing poorly.” Thibs clearly believes in his long-term potential, and probably believes that having a long leash with him at age 22 is beneficial to his development. I don’t think that’s wrong per se. It may be that he currently believes more in Grimes and IQ than he did previously, and is now going to use that to manipulate RJ into being more mindful about his in-game decision-making.

    It’s a delicate dance with a #3 pick who has shown lots of positives but has been maddingly inconsistent. You risk alienating the player and his supporters in management, in the stands, in the locker room.

    The primary visual manifestation of Thibs and development is his stupid mosh pit lane. That’s bad for players like RJ Barrett.

    I don’t think we’re trying to compare IQ & RJs shooting. We’re comparing everything they do besides shooting.

    Thing is, RJ is our most significant prospect, the guy who needs to be developed the most. So if what we’re saying here is that the coach is giving him an extra long leash and not holding him accountable, and as a result the player is stagnating and cultivating poor habits, that’s a pretty bad look on the coach. It’s great that Immanuel Quickley is playing well, but the rest of the young players we have drafted over the past few years aren’t exactly bursting at the seams development-wise.

    Even Quickley himself– yes, he’s playing well, but he has always played well. This is not like a huge breakthrough season for Quickley either, he is playing pretty much the same was he played as a rookie, it’s just that in Quickley’s case he actually played well as a rookie.

    The curious case of Obi Toppin speaks for itself. Much better last year, and then a major regression this year. His role seems unclear. I dunno, I’m not seeing a lot of young players improving greatly under Thibs’ watch and the sample size is getting bigger. That’s not to say all of these guys stink, it’s just that zero of them have become substantially better in their third or fourth years.

    Simons has a TS% a full 5 percent higher. It’s a 93 ts plus vs 102. That seems like a distinction that is a difference. Not that I think Simons is great or even good but it seems like a more valid pretext for hope.

    I just want to know when enough is enough. Four seasons?

    “I just want to know when enough is enough. Four seasons?”

    Which in my view depends on the age of the player. At age 22, 4 seasons is not enough.

    “I was in the Virgin Islands once. I met a girl. We ate lobster, drank piña coladas. At sunset we made love like sea otters. That was a pretty good day. Why couldn’t I get that day over and over and over?”

    One thing that is kind of irking me about the narrative around trading for OG, possibly using RJ, giving RJ an extension, etc.

    I’ve already read several of the pundits say something along the lines of “this wouldn’t make up for missing out on Donovan Mitchell” and/or “this would prove giving RJ the extension was a mistake.”

    And yeah, OG is not a star like Mitchell is.

    But the Brunson/Mitchell back court would be a disaster on defense. OG is almost exactly would we need in our starting line up and would improve us defensively. Plus if its say RJ and a pick or two (or like OBI/CAM and 3 picks) that would be WAY less than what Ainge was asking for Mitchell. It would have been RJ plus another young player plus 4 or 5 first round picks.

    So we’re talking about an upgrade that fits a need perfectly that would cost us far less than what Mitchell would have cost us.

    Seems like, depending on what it costs us, this could actually be a way better, though admittedly less sexy, move than getting Mitchell.

    BTW, forget the “RJ is from Canada so it’d be great for the Raptors to get him” narrative.

    Masai couldn’t give a shit whether RJ was from Canada or Turkmenistan, he knows he sucks

    It sounds like the bidding war for OG is getting too rich for us anyway unless we’re willing to do something really stupid. The Grizzlies and Pelicans are involved and presumably, rightfully willing to pay a “one piece away” type of price.

    “So if what we’re saying here is that the coach is giving him an extra long leash and not holding him accountable, and as a result the player is stagnating and cultivating poor habits, that’s a pretty bad look on the coach.”

    I think that, rightfully or wrongfully, Thibs truly likes and believes in what RJ does out there overall on most nights. In other words, it’s more that he believes that RJ is actually helpful towards winning than about “giving him an extra-long leash” even though it costs him wins. But I also think that benching him for long stretches in a couple of recent 4th quarters and overtimes suggests that he’s not satisfied with some aspects of his play compared to his peers.

    But I don’t think he’s done anything detrimental to RJ’s development in the long run.

    On that note, I’m interested to see how RJ responds tonight…this is a really big game and Jimmy Butler is probably going to take it right to him.

    i don’t really subscribe to binary outcomes for players (invest or give up) ….. i think if you could get any kind of good deal for anyone you should take it.. in the real world you rarely get offered favorable deals and so you have to seek it out but it seems we’re less aggressive in this whether by design or we’re forced into it… or both….

    RJ’s .. and any players… pivotal year is their third year… or if you take an age based approach it’s 23-24. and since key metrics like steal/blocks and 2pt fg% stagnated… all-nba is probably not in the cards… this is very obvious to everyone… the question now becomes whether he will be good or very good.. and that question is very much less clear but it is narrowing…. names like jeff green start popping up as higher possibilities and names like demar derozan become less and less real…. at the time of the draft i thought a jason richardson outcome was most likely and i think that’s still in the cards but he may even miss that….

    but if you do subscribe to invest or give up.. you really should factor in this upside is unless you think we’re now in full contention mode… i don’t think we are… so if you’re giving him up for say saddiq bey you should be pretty sure that he has more upside than RJ or why do the deal… you already have quentin grimes and IQ and so what role would bey fit? you might think that RJ has zero upside and if you do then you should absolutely trade him for whatever you can right now…. hell just do a straight dump for a second rd’er…

    if you treat these things like any other relationship… you invest as long as you feel it’s worthwhile… and you give up when you think the time invested is not worthwhile… for me… i dont look at it this way but if i did … we’re not competing so it’s worth a look to see what he can do… it literally costs us nothing besides the hairs that he loses us…

    there’s opportunity cost to consider which is closer to how i look at it… but i dont think there’s a deal out there for a 22 yo that has even a tiny chance to catapult us that’s not either sideways or cutting your losses…. and you can cut your losses at any point for players that are readily available for pure cap space or low first rd picks anyway….

    Letting RJ rack up points with as little detriment to the team as possible is probably the only way to handle him right now. He isnt gonna get you anything now so we can only pump up his counting stats going into next season then evaluate what he can get for us then.

    Also wonder how this RJ mess affects how we approach the draft as it is Wing heavy. A few of them I like better as prospects than RJ especially with this core.

    Just as RJ has fans here, it seems likely that RJ has fans in other FOs. If we need to I think we can deal him, but why not see his upside through unless something really good pops up?

    and i don’t think there’s a huge difference in opinion on rj’s play and future outcomes… this is not like those Frank arguments…

    i do think there’s a huge difference in opinion on where we are on the win curve… the difference between whatever RJ is doing and whatever alternatives that could be cooked up is the 7th seed which may turn into the 8th seed or heaven forbid the 9th or 10th seed…. but for others they might be really invested into that outcome and so what rj is doing now is probably really important within that context…. that to me is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things tho…

    on the margins you may think he has zero upside…. and that’s fine too.. but if you really believe that then you should think about what’s the lowest return you would accept for him and see if that is really true…. i dont think many do actually believe it is truly zero but i do think many think very small chance equates to zero… which may seem like the same thing but as we’ve seen with Randle and many other cases with young players.. these sorts of seemingly moonshots can and do occur a lot more than you think…..

    I think djphan’s take here is pretty reasonable: we can lower the ceiling on RJ after watching him this season. “Franchise player” seems like a very unlikely outcome at this point.

    I ‘unno, if I’m looking at this team and how to improve it, RJ seems like a good guy to try to move. It seems like a low risk that you’re going to get badly burned in a trade if the guy’s upside is Jeff Green or Jason Richardson. I wouldn’t be looking to dump RJ for Saddiq Bey, but if we have to throw RJ into a package along with picks to get a real impact player, I wouldn’t hesitate.

    JK, in your review of who has developed under Thibs, I think you left out Robinson.

    For the most part, I’m left to try to figure out how sea otters make love, but doing while also trying not to picture it is proving to be challenging.

    I’m not sure why this is so complicated.

    Right now RJ is a volume scorer that’s a negative defender. That’s a bad player.

    When it looked like he was a neutral defender that was improving on that side, you could be patient with the development of his shot, shot selection, play making etc… But if he’s going to be a negative defender why does it make sense to wait on him to become a somewhat more efficient scorer? That’s still not something to get excited about. It sounds more a like scorer that belongs on the bench because of his D.

    I’d WAY rather have a guy that’s a hugely impactful plus defender now and wait on him to develop on offense and at least come up with a consistent 3. That’s at least a player with a clear cut path to an important role on a contender if that 3 point shot improves.

    Robinson is the kind of player who tends to thrive under Thibs, and he has certainly gotten better over the years. So sure, he gets credit for that one. Thibs probably IS quite good at developing that type of player.

    I think all our young players are better now than they were.

    Quick is better now as a playmaker, rebounder, the diversity of what he can do, and monstrously on defense.

    Mitch was green as all hell when he started. He couldn’t even stay on the court. Now he has a huge impact on defense and on the offensive boards most nights.

    Obi has improved his 3 point shot.

    RJ improved his FT shooting, right hand, and shot overall.

    Improvement comes slowly for most players. That is the norm. The guys that explode forward are the exception.

    For the most part, I’m left to try to figure out how sea otters make love, but doing while also trying not to picture it is proving to be challenging.

    LOL

    I wouldn’t trade RJ for Bey but if someone came along offering at least two 1sts, then I’m interested in hearing them out. Presumably some GM out there still believes in him. Some idiot GM traded a 1st for Cam Reddish last year.

    I had to look it up: Mating is aquatic and often involves violent and prolonged copulations during which the male approaches the female from behind and grasps her face and nose with his teeth, sometimes pulling her head underwater while attempting to subdue her.

    @TommyBeer
    Yikes. Knicks announce Jalen Brunson (Non-Covid Illness) is out for tonight’s game against Miami.

    We either get The Immanuel Quickley Game, or this gets ugly fast.

    For whom the bell toll? It toll for me.
    It’s the 1:00 AM bell and bring JB’s bad news.
    Sweet dream guys 🙂

    And Julius should be all smiles because he just earned himself a million dollar bonus if I’m not mistaken.

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