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2022-23 Game Thread – Knicks vs. Raptors (MLK Day Game) – Love is Just a Four-Lettered Word?

The Knicks are back to having MLK Day matinees at the Garden after getting ripped off in 2020. I always loved these games when I lived in the City. I went to three or four of them over the years. It made me so mad when the Knicks didn’t get a game in 2020, so I’m happy that they are back.

Let’s keep the winning streak going! My 49-win prediction is still in play!

Let’s go, Knicks!

137 replies on “2022-23 Game Thread – Knicks vs. Raptors (MLK Day Game) – Love is Just a Four-Lettered Word?”

Knicks want another NBA Global Game, Max. Maybe we can be the opponent to the Mavs on the game the NBA is planning to Madrid (because Luka played there for Real Madrid). It’s half way for you and for me. 😉

Stupid random predictions I’ll wish I’d not written by the end of the first quarter: big games from Mitch and RJ today.

Brunson read KB and made the interior pass to Mitch, but Mitch didn’t prove us right.

Toronto’s dearth of big men and some Knicks’ staffers reading Knickerblogger give Mitch a lot of chances 🙂

Not in Detroit anymore…

Yeah, we need to step up if we want to win this game, it’s not going to be a walk in the park like yesterday.

Randle and Mitch have played together for four years and I think 75% of all of Randle’s assists to Mitch have occurred in the last 10 minutes

We always seems to forget about Toronto’s length and quickness, carelessness and slow thinking are not allowed…

>We always seems to forget about Toronto’s length and quickness<

When I look at them, I see a VERY good team. I can't figure out why they are underperforming so badly relative to what I would expect, but they always seem to show up against the Knicks.

Hartenstein gets absolutely no respect from the refs on either side of the ball.

I’m calling BS.

Watching that Hart five-minute-long rebound-grab-and-gather for the layup, I think I’ve finally figured out why Hart seems to struggle out there…

Randle simultaneously looks just as strong as he used to but lighter.. He’s doing something right diet and workout wise. Whatever it is, I need it.

That’s the highest I’ve ever seen Hart jump.

Might also be the only time I’ve ever seen Hart jump…

Quickly correctly realizing he’s the only guy on the floor with any prayer of scoring in the half court

When you watch the team without Randle and Brunson you wonder how Thibs avoids playing them both 48 minutes

Also Deuce is probably not an NBA rotation player. I’d be looking to upgrade the bench PG position if I was running this team

Outcome of today’s game notwithstanding, I think the most apropos phrase for the 2022-2023 version of the New York Knicks as currently constructed and playing is this:

“Greater than the sum of its parts.”

No superstars. And although there are many things about it that would typically make it seem as if it *shouldn’t* be working, well…….it seems to be working.

And that’s good ’nuff for me.

Clyde is the best!
“I think you and I are going to be the only ones not in trade rumors, Mike” 😀

Randle should DEFINITELY play all 48 minutes.

Run Obi as backup point guard to make JK47 happy.

I love Quentin Grimes.

Grimes is just one of those guys who does everything right. Trying to think of a comp, maybe Iguodala?

Randle pretending to have a handle when he really doesn’t and dribbling and dribbling badly until Toronto just took it away from him was one of the funnier things I’ve seen this season.

Despite my making fun of Randle on that play, it’s another Randle-Brunson game. Without both of them this isn’t even a close game.

In that special way he has, Barrett somehow on his way to his hot garbage 20 point game…

Without both of them this isn’t even a close game.

Without Brunson and Randle we’d probably be with the best odds to get Wembanyama.

“Also Deuce is probably not an NBA rotation player. I’d be looking to upgrade the bench PG position if I was running this team”

I agree on Deuce at this stage, but I think we’ll see Rose before they give up an asset for backup PG. If they do try to improve the bench scoring and are forced to give something up, I think it will be for a SF.

(Of course that’s why I thought it was mistake to take Cam out of the rotation entirely. He has the size, length, can switch, and can score if you ask him to be aggressive. Playing him 10-12 minutes here or there would not be an issue and he might improve further).

This would be one hell of a team if we replaced RJ with a real starting SF, but imagine if we had a real plus two way SF. That could also solve the bench problem. RJ could probably score a little more efficiently against bench players without doing as much damage as he does as a starter.

I’d be willing to give up a 2nd round pick to get someone on the team that would lacerate RJ’s finger. haha

I’m an incredibly patient guy when it comes to development or even bad years when I think there’s a legitimate excuse, but he’s losing me. We need a starting SF. He is not a starting SF.

Every time we take a dumb shot they score, it’s a rule.

And now we missed two incredible, but not dumb, shots at the rim…

It feels like we get no respect from the refs even at home. Some are obviously close but legit calls, but typically the home team gets a little “benefit” in the calls.

The Knicks Wall
@TheKnicksWall
The New York Knicks versus Scott Foster
A tale as old as time⏰

This is one physical game. Surprised (pleasantly) that Randle didn’t get T’d up there…

At what point does Quickly start getting some 6th man of the year consideration?

I’d assume if he has a big 2nd half he’d at least be in the conversation.

This team’s length is a problem for our smallish guards and SF on both sides. We need some length. Tough loss, but it was a tough game on a B2B after all the minutes some guys played yesterday and were asked to play today. We need bench help.

Worst non call of the game was on RJ’s dunk. He got mauled could have won the game right there.

“Worst non call of the game was on RJ’s dunk. He got mauled could have won the game right there.”

Correct. 1000 times correct.

The NBA’s review of some of these calls and non calls should be interesting tomorrow.

These Raptors scare the crap out of me. I know their record is not that good and there’s supposedly some unhappiness in the locker room, but they are way better than their record and a terrible matchup for us if we happen to run into them in the play-in or playoffs. The are too long for us at multiple positions. I expect them to make a big run after the all-star break if they remain healthy.

Our bench was exposed there. We can’t expect Randle and Brunson to play 40+ minutes in a street brawl overtime game on a B2B.

Why is every god damn game somehow exactly the same

It is crazy how similar all of their games are! I had a meeting and so I had the game on on mute and had to bite my tongue to not react through it all. That was one hell of a dunk by RJ, though! That was tough not to react to.

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To Z–man’s point, may be time to review the bench rotation.

How about having a freakin’ bench?!?! There are way too many players on this team who will just never see the court in a competitive game. It’s such a waste of roster spots. All in the hopes that someone will suddenly want to trade a first for Cam?

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Knicks need to start playing their home games on a neutral site or just play every game on the road cause it’s become embarrassing how poor this team plays at MSG.

We can’t expect Randle and Brunson to play 40+ minutes in a street brawl overtime game on a B2B.

That’s why playing them 40+ against the fucking Pistons was insane.

Funniest thing of the night for me, the italian broadcasting crew lambasting our iso-heavy offense and calling out Thibs over and over all night long… no, I wasn’t in the broadcast booth 😀

I hate this loss, I hate JB’s decision on the last shot, I’m pissed as hell…

good decision. 2 seconds at release. two guys back. not enough time to throw the lob (edit: well, maybe) . need to be 70pct on the 2pa to make it even money. nowhere near it.

Yeah, JB’s 3 point attempt reminded me of the Butler ECF 3 point attempt last year–a good decision that was widely panned at the time. Think about it this way: you have two good defenders back, no time on the clock, and 2 only gets you to 2OT (when your team is clearly gassed). A relatively open above the break JB 3 gets you the win, and probably goes in >=1/3 times. It was the right choice, and a good look.

Tough L but it shows that we need to rely on our starters less–the difference was energy and fatigue at the end this time round.

Our winning coincided with the 9 man rotation, but I don’t think that was the entire reason for the success. The media was pushing that narrative. It helped the defense to have Mcbride on the court and shrink it a bit, but I think we overshot and it became a bit unbalanced to remove all of Rose, Cam and Fournier.

With Deuce, Hart, and Obi on the floor (especially with Obi still less than 100%) there’s not enough shot creation. Quick and one of the starters can’t carry that load every night. It becomes draining for whichever starter is asked to play 40+ minutes even if they are successful some nights.

We all know the downsides of both Cam and Fournier, but no one is asking both of them to play or one of them to play huge minutes. But one of them can play 10 minutes off the bench.

Rose is also a forgotten man. He used to be one of the main engines of the successful bench unit we’ve had in recent years.

I get trying to ease Deuce into the backup PG role, but he’s not really a PG or enough of a weapon on offense for this to work with these teammates. The most obvious solution (absent a trade) is to play Rose 10-15 minutes a night until we find a better long term solution. If not him, then Cam or Fournier should get 10 minutes.

We can go back to 9 or even 8 in the playoffs when there are no B2Bs and everyone is shrinking their lineups.

Tough loss but it’s on a b2b, we got a million bad calls, and our guys played their hearts out.

I had no problem with Brunson’s last shot. It was a pretty good look.

Yep, doing a playoff rotation in the playoffs makes perfect sense. That, though, also speaks to the classic Thibs knock of “By playing playoff-style basketball for 82 games, there is no second gear when the actual playoffs come.”

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“Yep, doing a playoff rotation in the playoffs makes perfect sense. That, though, also speaks to the classic Thibs knock of “By playing playoff-style basketball for 82 games, there is no second gear when the actual playoffs come.””

…while the Raptors seem like the classic “we have a second gear for the playoffs” team.

I’m sensing one of two things will happen. Either we will make some sort of deal or deals involving Rose, Fournier, Cam, and one or two other pieces to bolster the bench, or McBride will be benched in favor of either Rose or Fournier. They might be trying to survive without Rose and Fournier until they can swing a deal, but if Feb 9 comes and goes and they are still on the roster, they have to play in that second unit.

Brunson’s last shot didn’t bother me but I thought he got caught up going back and forth with FVV- 29 shots against 2 assists and 4 turnovers definitely didn’t help the cause. Also, as well as RJ played in the second half he got worked on the offensive glass by Barnes. I don’t know what happened to RJ on the defensive end this year but he’s been terrible- fixing that is every bit as important (or at least close) as getting his efficiency up going forward.

While I feel a bit funny defending our bench, because, well, they sucked, our Big Three took 72 shots and hit them at a 38% rate — with RJ Barrett, the guy most of us would have dragged behind the locker room and shot at half time to put him out of our collective misery, having arguably the best statistical game. Which is categorically insane, as many posters here were clearly stating he was actively trying to lose the game single-handedly. I would have written the exact same thing but I was blissfully kept off the site for most of the game (blissfully for you guys) and had to keep my very cranky thoughts to myself.

And Quentin Grimes should not be taking 5 shots a game.

Tough loss but it’s on a b2b, we got a million bad calls, and our guys played their hearts out.

Yeah, this is how i’m feeling too.

Should have known it was going to be a loss when we were up by 10 in the 4th…

Didn’t catch the game but seems to be a high correlation between Knicks who played over 40min last night and Knicks who shot significantly below their season TS% today.

Not going to read much into it, sometimes the schedule just sucks.

@Z-Man

I feel the same way, they can try to hold the fort until the trade deadline and then make the changes, but it can be very dangerous.

After WASH we go to ATL and TOR then, closing in on the trade deadline, the schedule gets harder: CLE, BOS, BRK, LAL, MIA, LAC, PHI (feb 5th).

The current bench unit may cost us a lot in those next 10 games and there’s a chance we’ll burn our main 6-men too.
Maybe thay’ll better act sooner than later, oh wait I was forgetting…

I understand trying not to mess with what’s working, but we really need to have a better bench. Outside of the starters and IQ everybody should be available to upgrade our bench unit. And even a small trade like sending Fournier, Cam and one of our protected picks (WAS) for good backups at SG and SF would go a long way to stabilize our bench unit. We could then get back to a 10 man rotation, and if the new guys are ok defensively maybe Obi gets better too, because Thibs will let him focus on offense again.

…while the Raptors seem like the classic “we have a second gear for the playoffs” team.

Ay-yep. Hopefully either A. the Knicks avoid the play-in games entirely (in a good way 😉 ) and B. the Raptors don’t make the play-in games.

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The big question now is whether a close, hard fought loss on the back end of a b2b is enough to bring E out of hibernation.

Non-Knick related news, but it’s still pretty cool to see, is that Kawhi Leonard averaged 36 minutes a game over 4 games last week. It’s good for all fans of good basketball to see him back at full strength. Hopefully his injury is behind him and we get a few more great years out of him going forward.

Part of Grimes only taking 5 shots was on him. During the game a couple of us were lamenting that Grimes was passing up too many open 3pt looks. I get that he likes to drive by the close out and it usually leads to him getting into the paint for a layup or a pass off to someone for a layup but I thought today too many times he over did it and it wasn’t successful.

That’s funny, Al (and likely true) — I was just thinking earlier today that outside of the lob to Mitch, the Grimes drive-by is one of the more get-up-out-of-your-chair plays in the Knicks repertoire, as something exciting almost always happens, good or bad. And it’s usually good.

Watching this Griz/Suns game, Jaren Jackson Jr had 5 blocks in the first five minutes of the 4th quarter, four of them while his sub was waiting for a dead ball to check in for him out of mercy. The Suns could not get the ball anywhere even near the cylinder, even 7’8” Bismak Byimbo catching it 1 foot from the rim.

And the Grizzlies, as a team, are growing and gelling together the way the Warriors did. If they are healthy come playoff time, the Griz may be a legitimate championship threat (now, and for years to come).

today felt like a loss before the game began…

back 2 back, raptors kind of give us trouble, heck, just about every team not named the pistons give us trouble…

we could have won, but just not meant to be…

a couple of games this week where we’ll be favored…no doubt the knicks will have us sweating through both…

easy to imagine us losing both…

some games the short rotation doesn’t seem to make much sense…with players coming in off a tough game yesterday, probably would have been helpful to have some fresher legs for the fourth…

I know it’s the guys out on the court who really matter – thibs though doesn’t give me much confidence in close games…

Shortening the rotation was the right move when it was made in the sense that we were getting little-to-nothing from Cam/Fournier/Rose, so we naturally improved a lot when we stopped giving them minutes.

However we’re now seeing why no other teams really do this “X, Y, and Z can never, ever play under any circumstances” thing. It puts a lot of pressure on the guys who do play in terms of both minutes and production. Getting so little from Obi/Hart/McBride is killing us. Shortening the rotation to nine is one thing, effectively shortening it to six is quite another. Definitely might want to see if Fournier and Rose have gotten their act together. Not Cam though. #NeverCam

Honestly it’s a minor miracle we’re as good as we are while lighting so many roster spots, and so much cap space, on fire. It speaks to how much surplus production we’re getting from Brunson, Randle, Mitch, Grimes, and Quick.

Of course, I suppose the idea of phasing out McBride’s minutes in favor of Fournier and Rose raises some deeper questions about what our goals should be for the season.

Personally, it’s hard for me to get excited over lost Deuce Development given that 1) we’re substantially better than I thought such that most teams would probably make some kind of tradeoff of this nature and 2) perhaps more importantly, it’s sadly getting hard to see a path for Deuce in general. The defense is *very* real, but you really can’t play offensive zeros in the current NBA

We’re more than halfway thru the season and the Knicks are in the 6th seed and legitimately deserve it, by all metrics they’ve been one of the 10 best teams in the NBA so far this season. So honestly screw the development of a 2nd rd fringe NBA player, if possible try to add a legit player or 2 to help the bench this season.

Don’t care if it’s a rent-a-player like Eric Gordon, the front office at this point I think owes it to the current core and coaching staff to help them improve the roster to secure a playoff birth. Nothing crazy is necessary, I’m all for mostly standing pat and seriously reevaluating the roster and it’s future after the season. But similar to acquiring Rose 2 seasons ago I’m sure there is a possible trade or 2 that can be done to improve the bench without giving up any legitimate future assets.

Regardless of who our bench players are, – Thibs wont play them.

I don’t accept the notion that neither Rose, Cam, Frenchie or Obi are not worthy NBA players of 12-16 minutes against Kevin Knoxy level Detroit players while spotted 15+ points on the 1st game of back to back afternoons.

Its a Thibsian side effect that I have learned to ignore.

How we are relative to the rest of the league is hard to gauge since, you know, no one else does the whole 6 man rotation in January, you know? If we can get a guy who will be here a long time like OG, great. But we shouldn’t give up assets for an Eric Gordon type. If we need this much help when we’re treating games against Detroit like game 7, getting a stopgap veteran is a waste of resources.

If we need this much help when we’re treating games against Detroit like game 7, getting a stopgap veteran is a waste of resources.

Exactly, my thoughts. Also, Fournier > Gordon, if not same player. Rose is better than both. He just never got in rhythm this year.

Randle is 22nd in the NBA in minutes per game, RJ is 38th and Brunson is 40th. Toronto who apparently is run by a genius GM and head coach have 3 of the top 6 players in minutes per game (Siakam 2nd, OG 3rd, FVV 6th). Several of the best teams have their top 2 players both in the Top 20 in minutes per game. This narrative of Thibs running his best players into the ground compared to other brilliant head coaches is tiresome.

Rose & Fournier have been terrible this year, that’s a large part of why they’re not playing.

Not sure how Gordon has played but it’s hard to be worse than Fournier.

“So honestly screw the development of a 2nd rd fringe NBA player”

Now you’re just making me mad. The team was 9-9 when Deuce started getting regular minutes. They’re 17-12 since. I bet someone can tell me how the team’s defensive standing changed from before Nov 20 to after, but I believe it was a huge shift. (Someone? Anyone?)

All on the back of one little Miles? Ball don’t lie.

But goddamn it, I wish he’d score a few buckets now and again…

Walker Kessler had a 20-20 game.

Wasn’t available when we would have picked. And we couldn’t have used him this year or really any year.

***This narrative of Thibs running his best players into the ground compared to other brilliant head coaches is tiresome.***

As I mentioned above, Kawhi Leonard, for whom load management was basically invented for, and following an 18 month ACL recovery, played 38 minutes three times this week, with two of the games decided by double-digits. The idea that fit adults in their 20s can handle 32 mins but will break if they play 4 minutes longer should be put to rest.

i’m past wanting thibs coaching the knicks, even with the understanding he’s the best coach we’ve had in a very long time, and consistency counts…

we lose waaay too many close games, or so it seems…

Yup stupid of the Knicks to gamble on getting a player who put up a 4.5 BPM in 1200 min for $8M. What were they thinking…

There’s something so wrong about how good Lebron is playing for such a middling Lakers team. It’s like Jordan on the Wizards, only Lebron is playing so much better, so it is extra painful.

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