Knicks Morning News (2022.11.03)

I propose a moment of silence in honor of our hopes of a good season, i’m almost certain they passed away yesterday.

That was a complete disaster, and yeah it’s only 7 games into the season, but if they don’t wake up fast, the season will be a lost season a lot sooner than we expected. I still think we can right the ship, like starting Quick or Grimes instead of Fournier. Or even better, shipping out Fournier and Randle for a defensive stopper. On the reverse, if we keep losing, maybe this will grant TNFH’s wish and we’ll tank to get Wembanyama.

And right now, i’m only wondering how many F’s will Max give on his game recap grades. 😛

Hard to watch last night without agreeing with the premise that the construction of this roster and particularly the starting five is quite awful. Only can hope that last night was the nadir of the first quarter of the season.

Copying forward as new thread posted while I was writing it!

If RJ and Randle can’t shoot, then the starting lineup is toast, full stop. There is a grand total of one plus defender in that lineup (Mitch). There’s one average defender in RJ. And 3 minus defenders in Brunson, Randle, and Fournier. So let me check my math:

3 non-shooters PLUS
3 below-average defenders PLUS
1 head coach who insists on playing this lineup for the most minutes in the league EQUALS
exactly what we’re seeing here.

There might be enough sheer individual talent on this team to beat bad teams, but we’ve gotten our asses handed to us by any good team whenever that good team decides to start trying.

That starting lineup is now -8.8 per 100 possessions even with the addition of Brunson.

Here’s an interesting (small sample size) exercise:

Lineups with Fournier + Randle: -8 net rating (331 poss)
Lineups with neither Fournier nor Randle: +6 net rating (215 poss)
Lineups with Fournier but no Randle: +17.4 net rating (only 22 poss)
Lineups with Randle but no Fournier: +16.6 net rating (138 poss)

Of course out of the 4 possible lineups here, the one Thibs plays the most is the worst one.

Trading out Reggie Bullock for Fournier (especially considering the contract) has turned into one of the most disastrous decisions this FO has made.

It is honestly time for Julius to become a 28-30 minute player and Obi to take the rest of the minutes. And for Grimes (or Quickley!) to enter the starting lineup. Cam has potential but still too many boneheaded plays. You can’t have 3 nonshooters and 3 non defenders at the same time.

Can..can we not talk about the team today. I’m disgusted.

I mean..we can spend the day talking about anything…
How the Mets collapsed..
LOLNETS..
Jeezy’s last album (I felt like it was 06 and I was listening to Can’t Ban The Snowman for the first time again. How Deep is a banger…sheesh!)

Anything but the Knicks today.

Well I do wanna say something in defense of Fournier at least. He can’t be THIS BAD of a player. I’m sure of it. Maybe the fact that he is officially a role player is killin him because he’s not adjusted to it yet. Which is why Grimes has to get healthy and Fournier and Cam can battle it out for minutes with the 2nd unit. You have to believe Fournier would look much better runnin with the 2’s.

I still like the team tho. Thibs has got to manage his rotations better.

That Jeezy and DJ Drama tho!!

This one sent me fully over to the Dark Side. One bad game is one bad game, but this was just a more exaggerated version of the kind of bad game we were getting all the time last season. The bench players are consistently better than the starting players (other than Brunson > Rose), yet Thibs is so damn stubborn with his rotations, with his substitutions, etc. Julius and RJ won’t stop shooting even on nights when they clearly can’t shoot, etc. And they just stopped trying. The whole freaking point of having Thibs is that he will get maximum effort from his players and will a less-talented roster into overachieving. If the guys are letting go of the rope, what are we even doing here with this coach?

Just feeling very down. There are still ways out of this calamity, but they involve:

1)Firing the coach

2)Telling his replacement (presumably Johnny Bryant) to prioritize developing and playing the young players above everything else

3)Being willing to eat some or all of these contractual mistakes, whether that’s just sitting someone like Fournier, attaching one of our protected picks to dump him or Randle, etc.

4)Accepting that we cannot trade for high-end talent until we demonstrate that we have some of our own, whether that comes from growth from our own kids or for finishing high up in the lottery for a bit.

It’s bad. The vibes are bad. I hate it.

No grades today, it’s not funny to write a sad column of Ds and Fs.
Yesterday was nothing new, nothing that hasn’t happened before, with this players, with this coach.

While I totally understand that this roster isn’t well constructed I’m now fully convinced is not well coached too, and that’s far, far worse.

I repost here my comment on today Macri’s newsletter:

Elfrid Payton, Derrick Rose, Kemba Walker, Alec Burks, Jalen Brunson.
The PGs change, the coach don’t.

In the meantime this team is unable to survive even a modest amount of press (be it fullcourt or halfcourt), can’t attack zones and keeps coughing up huge leads.

And can we talk about the situations in which hot players are substituted after strings of baskets and left to cool off on the bench until frozen? Or units that are working are changed “because it’s time to do it”? Or players’ accountability is different if your name is Julius?

Quinn Snyder is available.
Fire this coach.

And now I take my disgust and retire somewhere, until we have a new coach.

Poindexter, I feel you. There are definitely days when I do not want to come to this site because of the understandable level of negativity after a terrible loss. I can’t promise to not talk about this team, but I can at least introduce some more frivolous topics, like the fact that Atlanta devoted its third-to-last episode to a mockumentary about the making of A Goofy Movie, and how the (fictional) head of Disney at the time wanted it to be “the Blackest movie ever made”?

I’m not going to belabor the Thibs thing beyond saying that the biggest problem with him is his clinging to the surpassing need to protect the paint as if it’s still 2010. Not only does that give up way too many easy threes ( *) but it turns the lane into a mosh pit offensively because of the presence of the “rim protector.” The defining feature of his offenses ever since he got here is the crowded lane.

Modernizing that obviously at this point requires a new coach, but my focus is more on the specifics of what the new coach should do rather than on Thibs.

And at that point, you obviously need to figure out what to do with Mitchell Robinson. Can he modern rim run? Probably. So move him out of the lane, run high pick and roll with him. If it works, great; if it doesn’t, we have to move on. And clearly if you move him out to a more modern position, you’re going to lose some of his putbacks. (**)

I certainly don’t mean to single out Mitch because he’s not the problem. I also don’t mean to single out Brunson, either, because he’s not really the problem — but he’s even worse defensively than my modest expectations for him on that end. He’s a flat-out poor defender.

(*) And no, please let’s not start with the “Thibs knows how to leave the right guys open at the triple line” stuff. He doesn’t.

(**) The idea of pounding the other team on the offensive glass went out of style in like 2006 in any event.

No grades today, it’s not funny to write a sad column of Ds and Fs.

Year, after year, after year, after year, …

The ship be sinking.

Even on r/nyknicks the mood has turned dour—the most upvoted comments are about how we’re mediocre with no clear way to get better or worse, how bad the Randle and RJ contracts are, etc.

Macri is usually reliable for the most realistic optimistic take on the state of affairs. Not today. His newsletter was a devastating, though fully accurate, broadside against the front office.

We can overanalyze the current roster all season and lord knows I’ll participate in that, but we’re just going to be talking around the intractable issue(s): the team isn’t very good, because the players aren’t very good, because the front office thought it could defy the laws of NBA gravity and build a good team without having to make any of the hard choices associated with doing so. We asked for mediocrity and got it.

I’m sure at some point another star player will hit the trade market and we’ll all go into our respective trade vs no trade corners. Let’s not kid ourselves about this theoretical future time being any different though, there was nothing unique about the Donovan Mitchell situation. The market told us the young players we have are essentially throws ins, so the price for us is some variation of “all the picks you can trade.”

We’ll be making the same no-win calculation we were making with Mitchell—do we want to go all in to get a star that still won’t make us all that good, or do we want to maintain the arguably even duller status quo? There’s a reason virtually no one else has succeeded in building a contender by trading for two stars.

We’ve got one trick left up our sleeve if we want to use it: the draft. People have broken their arms patting the Rose regime on the back for not trading future firsts. Welp, now it’s time to actually make that work for us instead of just trading our pick for 2-3 worse picks in the future.

How we can effectively tank with the roster and cap sheet in the state that it’s in, I do not know. But Leon Rose gets paid a lot more than me and has a lot more time to dedicate to these questions. Figure it out.

A lot of the teams currently worse than us project to get better, if only because they have no other choice (e.g. Brooklyn, LA, Golden State). A good tanking effort could get us in the running for someone who could change this dreary story.

It’s obviously not a great plan, but neither is winning 37 games with no exciting roster developments to speak of and picking 10th. It is at least a plan.

Awful game. But, on the bright side (ducks), the minutes allocation was fairly even.

RJ 33
Brunson 31
Randle 30
IQ 29
Hart 25
E4 19
Mitch 18
Obi 18
Rose 17
Cam 15
Grimes 5

Point is: we want more data. Thibs is giving us more data. Obi, in particular, blew a golden opportunity to make (half of) this board correct about his skills. He started very strongly but then had some truly terrible minutes in the second half. IQ had a strong-ish overall game — 16 boards, 4 assists, hit all his FTs — and got a chance to play through some shooting woes.

The result was god awful — BUT — we need Thibs to let the kids fail as much as succeed. Let’s hope he keeps giving them minutes, and guys like Obi keep getting a chance. He should get more minutes next game IMO, not fewer.

The Prime Rib sandwich is pretty good value, especially if you have a discount code and are really really hungry.

Oh, and yeah, it was super strange they brought Grimes in after the game was decided. Maybe he needs to get his sealegs but we could have used some perimeter defense before the 47 point swing happened.

Also, the defensive rebounding was truly awful last night. Some of it was maybe some odd bounces and there were a couple very bad loose ball fouls called, but the -5 offensive board differential was very deceptive.

Also, fucking hell Mitch. His fourth foul was super super dumb. He fouled two guys at the same time trying to get a ball he had no possible chance at.

Looking forward to my 20 game embargo being over.

I’m not happy with how last night went, but come on. The Hawks lost by 30 to the Raptors in the previous game and I doubt that their fans were jumping off a bridge.

I’m sticking to my 20-game leash. Last night was indeed terribly reminiscent of last year, but all of the other games have been at least competitive.

Thibs has done worse with the minutes allocation, but if you really want to collect data on a guy “18 minutes maximum” is just not going to cut it. I mean look at this shit:

Top 10 picks in the last 15 years with fewer minutes per game in their career than Obi Toppin:Thon Maker (2016)Anthony Bennett (2013)Thomas Robinson (2012)Jimmer Fredette (2011)Hasheem Thabeet (2009)Joe Alexander (2008)I wish this was a joke— Teg🚨 (@IQfor3) November 1, 2022

I am aware of the explanation that in 2,000 total minutes the Knicks’ brilliant front office expertly concluded that Obi Toppin is JaVale McGee with a cooler name. I won’t belabor the point(s) about his numbers, Randle’s numbers, my skepticism about the value of “shot creation” when the “shots created” are being missed almost all of the time, etc. I do not buy it.

At least there is some interesting stuff happening in the rest of the NBA.

I am willing to take bets that Tari Eason will be better than Jabari Smith Jr.

Dwight Powell +25 last night to save Luka from irrelevance.

I think passing on Desmond Bane might be another one of those inflection points we were talking about. In general, it’s amazing how many useful players the Grizzlies have.

Strat probably couldn’t sleep after the numbers KP put up last night. Hell of a game. Major Unicorn energy.

Lauri Markannen > Julius Randle

Enjoying Zion’s passing so far but the overall line is pretty tepid.

Anthony Davis seems to still be an elite player

Having Philly and Boston lose always makes me feel good

rephrasing my post from the end of the last thread.

Today is not a day to look at stats or player analysis for what went wrong yesterday. An epic collapse in front of a capacity home crowd with a healthy roster. A coach cannot let that happen. This is 100% on Thibs.

In terms of the Spida situation, Markatan (*) was far and away the best current player on offer to Utah. How much of a factor that was I suppose remains at least somewhat unclear, but there’s no doubt about the substance.

(*) It’s both easier to say that way and spell that way, so I’m going with it. Thanks, Clyde!

And as bad as things are now, there are still some storm clouds on the horizon. They very well might get docked a 1 for tampering with Brunson.

I’m on the 20-game sample before I post anything, too, but have to say this is how it felt last night:

Lucy
Football
Air
Pain

We’ve talked about the question of whether any team in the league would trade their roster for ours. But let’s go more granular than that. Is there a team in this league whose best player is not better than Jalen Brunson, or whomever you feel is the Knicks’ best player? If you look at the tanking teams, OKC has SGA, Utah has Mark-a-10, Hornets have LaMelo, etc. You could maybe make an argument for Detroit, but Cade and Ivey have more upside than anybody we have. Am I missing somebody?

“Let’s Talk Knicks (LTK)
@LetsTalkKnicks_
I give permission to Julius Randle to lose his cool just once this season… as long as it’s against Evan Fournier #knicks”

🙂 🙂

No need for a 20 game sample when this is just last year’s team with a somewhat improved point guard.

He’s an easy scapegoat and his knee did what his knee was expected to do, but it shouldn’t be forgotten that Kemba had some *really* good games last year. The improvement over that Kemba really isn’t much of anything. It might even be a downgrade.

We’ve seen the core of this roster now for three years running. It sucks.

LMAO at this thread

The things we needed before last night are the same things we need this morning. Absolutely nothing has changed except we played 1 more game.

Randle and Fournier for Westbrook a protected pick and filler? Who says no?

Can the people who wanted to let RJ hit RFA run their victory laps yet? Another early extension that’s biting the team in the ass. At least the Knicks didn’t hurt his feelings or whatever by letting him play out his deal. Or was the argument by the pro-extension people that the team needed to extend him to signal a ‘culture change’?

Just another self-inflicted wound by Leon. Over it.

“Is there a team in this league whose best player is not better than Jalen Brunson, or whomever you feel is the Knicks’ best player?”

***********************************

Maybe San Antonio? That’s about it. Shitty teams the Knicks are “expected” to beat out — Wiz and Pacers and Pistons for starters — have two.

I said before the year that I’d rather have each of the top 6 picks in the draft than Brunson. At this point, I’d extend that to 7.

Okay sure, 20 games. I’m sure the glaringly obvious flaws in the way this team was constructed will sort themselves out in another 13 games.

I’m familiar with this part of the narrative, the part where everybody knows the front office is incompetent but we have to wait for the gruesome string to play itself out. We’re in the “bargaining” stage right now. Give it 20 games. Sure. 20 games.

What’s a record over the next 13 games that would convince everybody that this is turning around?

I’m not rabidly anti-RJ extension, but the way they did it — spiteful reaction from losing Spida followed by front office leaks that they really didn’t want to do it (*) — was typical Knicks Keystone Cops shit.

(*) HUH?!?!?!?!

We already knew that our best player (whoever that is) couldn’t crack the top 60 in preseason ratings that virtually every team had at least one, and usually more than one, player better than our best player. And if anything, those ratings were generous.

It also means that any team trading their roster for ours is going to be down at least one actual or legitimately potential all-star, meaning someone who they probably wouldn’t trade for any of our players on their current contract, even 2-for-1 or probably 3-for-1.

Not that impressed with Ivey and Cade.

Cade’s college numbers in particular were very underwhelming to me for the hype he was accorded. It was quite clear at the time that he isn’t a great athlete.

I’d set the over/under on him right now at Shaun Livingston

Yes this game sucked, but that’s because the team was actually good in the first half (even though, at this point, we have all come to expect that type of collapse).

To my eyes, that doesn’t mean all our players are flat out terrible, although we could obviously use better defenders and 3pt shooters… It means we have a coach who cannot adjust when the opposing coach adjusts and who cannot keep our guys energized after halftime.

I’m 100% out on Thibs. There were a lot of things he could’ve tried during that 50-point swing that he didn’t… put fucking Deuce in… anything!

I just can’t look at his perplexed mug anymore.

Owen,

“Strat probably couldn’t sleep after the numbers KP put up last night. Hell of a game. Major Unicorn energy.”

I try my best to not be emotional. I obviously “lose it” from time to time but I recover. KP’s potential was obvious to me. The biggest shame is that all the injuries not only delayed his development by a few years, they probably capped his peak at quite a bit below what it could have been. And of course we are only a handful of games into the season. He’ll probably get hurt again soon. At least he finally got away from Dallas and his role as a glorified floor spacer for Mr Usage.

Now if you want to see me really lose it, let Frank get over his latest series of injuries and start dropping 3s at 40% regularly. 🙂

Top 10 picks in the last 15 years with fewer minutes per game in their career than Obi Toppin:
Thon Maker (2016)
Anthony Bennett (2013)
Thomas Robinson (2012)
Jimmer Fredette (2011)
Hasheem Thabeet (2009)
Joe Alexander (2008)

Some of these guys were due to injury, no? I’m not saying that they weren’t bad, I’m just saying they were bad AND they were hurt. And that’s the only reason they’ve received fewer minutes.

Also surprised to not see Jordan Hill on this list. Not sure if that’s a knock on Knicks’ drafting ability or Thibs.

On second thought, it’s probably both.

Strat, if he doesn’t get injured it will be your best take.

The numbers he has put up in Washington through 25 games are pretty eye popping.

I agree that he’ll probably get hurt again and it’s entirely academic at this point, but a healthy Kristaps Porzingis is an excellent basketball player. That brief fleeting notion that it was some great stroke of fortune to be able to “trade his cap space for Julius Randle” has … cough … not aged well.

In terms of what it means for the here and now, which is really the only thing that matters, it means for the here and now that if Beal and KP stay healthy, the Wizards are better than the Knicks.

So I missed the second half due to cooking a monster dinner at the half and then peeking and seeing the collapse ongoing.

I think the one thing that’s mostly missing from this discussion is how the hell did we get out to such a commanding lead? And then why did we utterly collapse? I mean, Thibs, of course, but what happened, really? We were briefly the best team in the NBA for a third of a game before becoming the worst.

My short take (as they started to give it back) along with reading comments is that they reverted to doing dumb shit, each player going back to their own special dumb shit (e.g., Mitch reaching, RJ and Randle throwing bricks into the ocean). Is that about right?

Is there a team in this league whose best player is not better than Jalen Brunson, or whomever you feel is the Knicks’ best player? ….Am I missing somebody?

Spurs? And they are the undisputed masters of the art of perfectly timed tanking.

“Okay sure, 20 games. I’m sure the glaringly obvious flaws in the way this team was constructed will sort themselves out in another 13 games.”

The expectations (or hope) for this year was to win about 41 games (plus or minus a few), prove that Brunson could handle the starting PG job, and hope a couple of the young players show some progress (especially RJ).

The needs were a #1 option (which is why we have all those excess picks and have been bypassing drafting probable role players) and a stretch PF to replace Randle.

We have to be patient with finding the #1 option. That may not even happen next year. It certainly wasn’t going to happen in the first 7 games this year.

The search for stretch PF is actually encouraging. Obi is clearly still improving and at a minimum is a threat if left wide open from 3 (on top of the cuts and transition baskets). So we may already have that player.

RJ’s shooting is notoriously volatile. Let’s give it some time before deciding if he’s made progress.

Brunson has been fine, but our spacing issues are a problem for him too.

There’s nothing to panic about just because we lost to a better team at home last night. 41 win teams lose 41 games too.

“What’s a record over the next 13 games that would convince everybody that this is turning around?”

A better question is: What does “turning around” mean?

As you said, we have lots of nuts and bolts, and no chrome and leather.

So turning it around for me means having the nuts and bolts fit together in the best way possible. Meaning reasonably improved play on an individual level, and reasonably improved cohesiveness on a team level.

This team should be at least what 538 odds say they are, a just below .500-ish team. All I’m saying is that it is too early to judge whether they have at least some upside beyond that realistic prediction.

If anyone was delusional enough to think that we should have beaten MEM, MIL, CLE, or ATL, that’s on them. Here are the 538 wins predictions for those teams:

ATL: 48-34
CLE: 49-33
MEM: 51-31
MIL: 54-28

We got out to a commanding lead because mediocre and shitty teams do that to good teams at home all the time in the association and then the good team wakes up.

It was delusional to think we could beat Atlanta at home? Well then we fucking suck and should be full on tanking.

Nobody’s “panicking” or “overreacting,” just musing on the moment of clarity put on offer when a team people sort of kinda hoped the Knicks might be on something like par with completely toyed with the Knicks.

The Hawks didn’t even have their best player for most of it but once they woke up and got rolling it was varsity versus junior varsity stuff. That’s clearly going to get people to the keyboards.

“It was delusional to think we could beat Atlanta at home? Well then we fucking suck and should be full on tanking.”

I used the word “should.” Big difference, no?

“It’s delusional to think the Knicks could beat a 48 win team at home” and “let’s be patient and give it 20 games” do not fit together in any logical sense.

E and JK, why not just quote what I wrote rather than change a key word?

And E, I also said “I’m sticking to my 20 game leash” and didn’t say anything about what you or anyone else should do. For someone who bitches about how often I purportedly misquote others, you are putting on a clinic today.

OK, but I don’t see how it matters (beyond the fact that everyone should be quoted accurately; that I entirely agree with so my bad).

They got toyed with at home by the Hawks and this is essentially the same roster we’ve seen for a long time now. Who cares what people’s perspectives going in were?

And, ok, stick with the 20 game leash, but the rest of us are under no obligation to. This roster stinks. Their best player is a Tier 4 guy and their top usage guys can’t throw the ball in the ocean. The coach remains attached to basketball principles that are 5-10 years out of date.

The ship be sinking.

The one thing, and I’ll stick to it, is that I’m willing to give the three unathletic lefty lane foragers (*) a modernized open lane before I give up for good. But I don’t see that that will ever come to pass. It obviously won’t with Thibs at the helm.

(*) Not one. Not two. Three!!

Mr. November has a string of games like this every year, where he looks like a cross between prime Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Larry Bird for a short time.

Sadly he invariably bumps into a teammate at practice or sneezes too hard then finds himself on the bench in street clothes for six weeks. Lather rinse repeat.

You’re really litigating “could” versus “should” this hard at this point? Seems like a distinction without much of a difference to me.

Fine, dude. I guess it was “delusional” to think the Knicks “should” beat the Hawks. Either way it sure seems like this team is not very good and that Leon Rose is a suboptimal NBA executive!

“Our best players are all slowish slashers who are crafty and can get into the lane pretty well. Hey, I know — let’s put our center by the basket so both he and the other team’s best shot blocker can *both* get in the way of our slowish slashers!! Then our center will be close enough to the basket to get offensive rebounds!!!”

Genius at work.

The KP cycle tends to be:

Comes out like gangbusters –> gets injured –> has trouble coming back from injury, can’t recapture the early season production if/when he does

If he can ever break it, no one ever doubted the potential. I ain’t holding my breath and I’ll still never have any regrets about it not being our problem.

“If anyone was delusional enough to think that we should have beaten MEM, MIL, CLE, or ATL, that’s on them.”

Well then, I can only assume you became a very wealthy man last night, as Las Vegas was delusional enough to think the Knicks could beat Atlanta at home.

Having said that, it’s funny to be accused of overreacting to seven games when what’s really happening is almost the opposite: the seven games have produced no reaction in me whatsoever. I think basically all of the same things about the state of the team as I thought prior to the 7 games, maybe a little more strongly.

Needless to say, I was pretty down on the state of the team before the season. They had the opportunity to change that this season, and hey, they still do, but 7 games in it doesn’t look like we’re getting an RJ leap or a Randle Renaissance that takes his contract out of the running for “worst in the sport” or a surprisingly high win total or a surprisingly low win total or any of the other things that could’ve materially altered my view of things.

It just looks like a lot of us were right when we pegged this team as being exactly where you don’t want to be in the NBA.

Like magnetic force field clockwork, Julius Randle’s TS% has gravitated back to .511, essentially where it’s been the entire time since they reopened the buildings in the spring of 2021.

Took seven games. There’s your sample. Big picture: They paid him and he’s sucked ever since.

If Leon decides to sacrifice Thibs to protect himself, which outcome do you think is more likely?

1)He tells Bryant, Quinn Snyder, or whoever takes over the job to try to do the Thibs thing, only better — i.e., wring as many wins as possible out of this group, by any means necessary; or

2)He feels confident that the firing makes him bulletproof for at least another offseason, and thus tells the new guy to play the kids, perhaps aim for ping-pong balls, etc?

I’d want it to be the second, but I have to imagine it’s the first. To paraphrase an old TV show I’ve been thinking about a lot lately, Welcome to the MSG, [expletive deleted]! This is how it’s done in Madison Square Garden.

OK, but I don’t see how it matters

For the same reason we shouldn’t judge the season by the first half, either.

“There’s nothing to panic about just because we lost to a better team at home last night. 41 win teams lose 41 games too.”

Being a 41 win (optimistic, but whatever) team with no clear avenues for improvement is something to panic about, sorry.

I mean the picture your nominally optimistic post paints is actually quite bleak. We’re a mediocre team with some decent parts that don’t fit together that is desperately searching for a star and not close to landing one.

People are not “panicking” because of one loss, they’re accurately characterizing the very situation you described as shitty.

If anyone was delusional enough to think that we should have beaten MEM, MIL, CLE, or ATL, that’s on them. Here are the 538 wins predictions for those teams:
ATL: 48-34

I was planning to refute Z-man’s comment by pointing out that using ATL w-l prediction is not a correct benchmark because it does not reflect home and away records. Figured I would use home/away splits from the teams that were 48-34 last year–Toronto and Denver. Turns out Toronto had identical 24-17 home and away records, while Denver actually had a better away record than home.

Leon is too far down the “win now” rabbit hole, and now we’re stuck with multi-year contracts for bad players. It would take a much more skilled GM than Leon Rose to fix this clusterfuck but sadly Leon Rose is the horse we’re riding on. Let’s just hope he doesn’t make too many more mistakes before he is inevitably canned.

I’m not in full blown panic mode, but one thing that bothered me a lot about last night’s game was the Knicks looking completely flummoxed by the zone defense the Hawks occasionally threw at them. We actually had guys like Randle dribbling around in the paint when Coaching 101 tells you to put someone in the high post and move the ball into the post and out for open looks. And then what usually happens at that point is the opposing coach immediately goes back to man to man

This one’s on Thibs, you can’t let the other team beat with you a fucking zone defense.

Before the season there was complete agreement that a ~37-41 win season in which no young player made serious improvement and everyone else just did what they always do would be a disaster.

It sure looks like that’s exactly where this is headed, so naturally the goalposts are getting moved.

Now picking 11th with no players anyone really wants was the plan the whole time.

Frank, I agree with a lot of your rant at the end of the last thread but not this part “ 1 head coach who insists on playing this lineup for the most minutes in the league ”. I looked at the box score from last night and Barrett played 33 minutes which was the most of any starter. Randle played 30 minutes which actually matches your target playing time range for him. Now I didn’t see the end of the game so I don’t know if these minutes are a little skewed because Thibs put in the reserves at the end of the game because it was garbage time. But even if they are skewed it’s only by a little and Thibs is very far from playing his starters the most minutes in the league. Actually, Thibs is being pretty flexible. Quickley is a bench player and he played 29 minutes, which is almost starter level minutes.

My problem with the Leon Rose move the entire time is that there are two types of people who leave their cushy jobs for a brand-new career doing something different (but related) to their cushy jobs. There are the go-getting cocky people who think that they’ll take on the new arena easily, whether they flame out or not (think Ovitz and Disney, Tina Brown and Talk Magazine, Bob Myers and Golden State, Brodie and the Mets, etc.) and then there are the people who are wooed to this new field and don’t really want to make the move, but it’s too intriguing to turn it down, and those people tend to specifically NOT want to flame out, as they don’t want to have left their cushy job behind just to get fired right away, so they are much more conservative and risk-averse. That’s what we’re dealing with with Rose. He didn’t seek this job out, Dolan, like a moron, sought Rose out and offered him an amazing job – head of one of the most famous NBA teams in the league – and Rose wasn’t going to take it and then lose it right away. Instead, he has followed a path designed to not get him fired right away, which also involves never speaking to the media, so that the media can’t use his words against him. In terms of just not getting fired, Rose is brilliant. Much smarter than Phil, who was actually in a fairly similar situation (and also took a fairly conservative approach with the Knicks, just one that was so poorly done that he still accidentanked, because he was terrible).

I still think back to what I said when Rose was hired – if the Knicks want to emulate good organizations, why not try hiring guys who have already proven to be good at their jobs, instead of handing the job to guys who’ve never done it before (Neither Isiah, Phil, Mills or Rose had ever even been assistants to the head of a basketball organization. I mean…whaaa…? Only Grunwald stood out as a guy who was at least an underling before getting promoted. Walsh doesn’t count because the league forced him on Dolan).

It’s crazy to think that Julius Randle’s miraculous bubble season could be the worst thing to happen to this franchise since — I don’t know — Isiah’s disastrous reign?

They had no expectations for him, so drafted Obi Toppin.

Team completely overachieved, so rather than tear down, they built up for 21-22 with a truly disastrous offseason, signing Kemba, Fournier, letting Bullock leave, and giving a new contract to Burks, and extending Julius. I mean, that is super disastrous.

Team completely underachieved in 21-22 but because Julius won 2nd team All-NBA and because Thibs is Thibs, Obi and the rest of the young players never actually got to play. And Thibs gave Julius carte-blanche to torpedo the entire team and season.

And now? We’re in between a teardown and trying to win now.

It is without a doubt true that Obi Toppin is not a great defender, but his offensive numbers just cannot be ignored. Per 36 he’s averaging 22.2 points, 77 rebounds, 2.9 assists against just 1.6 turnovers, and has a TS of 62.9 and 22.1 usage. His OBPM is 4.8 and even with a negative DBPM (-0.8) he’s a 4 BPM guy so far this young season. He is so good on offense that you have to just live with the defense (never mind that his on/off defensive numbers are actually good, FWIW). On top of that, Randle is bad at defense! So it’s not even like you’re trading offense for defense!

There is no justification for the minutes allocation right now other than that the guys that make the most $ have to play the most minutes. Maybe this is what you get when an agent runs the organization, and maybe that’s the reality of the NBA when it comes to what’s in the players’ heads. But it is totally nonsensical now, and has been for Thibs’s entire tenure.

I mean, come on, JK. There is a HUGE distinction between “should” and “could”. That you would minimize the distinction comes across as kind of petty.

Tell me, were you were actually “expecting” a win last night, even though any realistic comparison of the two rosters would have given ATL a significant advantage, because we “should” have beaten them?

Or were you “hoping” that we would beat them because if enough things went right, we “could” beat them?

ATL just went all-in on Dejounte Murray, and it is looking like a great move so far! He’s shooting 40+ from 3 (including 5-12 last night) and their roster was significantly better than ours even before that move. They could legitimately be a top-4 team in the East if that continues. And it’s not like they are good out of the blue, they are 1 year removed from an ECF appearance and have essentially the same core roster plus Murray.

No one in their right mind should have felt going into that game that we “should” have beaten them. Same for CLE, MIL, or MEM. The manner in which we lost isn’t really all that important to me. If you put all of our losses in a basket and shake them up, this one kind of balances out the overtime loss in Memphis and the largely competitive losses in MIL and CLE.

We are still pretty much at chalk for the season. Pre-season analysis by every serious analyst concluded that we are a “compete for the play-in” team, probably for the 9-10 spots.

I agree that it would be wrong to think that we “should” be better than that with this roster. That was true before the season started, and nothing that has happened in the first 7 games “should” change that “evidence-based” take.

I’m holding out on what we “could” do on both sides of that take until the 20-game mark. That is in no way a call to others to do the same. Nor is it a refutation of any criticism aimed at the roster, the coach, or the FO.

Not sure why anyone would take any umbrage at anything I posted today considering the words I actually used.

*** surprised to not see Jordan Hill on this list. ***

Not to date us, but Jordan Hill was drafted 13years ago, outside the purview of this search.

That said, Hill, like a lot of the players not on the list, managed to average more MINUTES PER GAME because he had one season where he started for a 21 win team when he was 27 years old, three bus stops after the team that drafted him. I have no doubt Toppin will get there if he’s good enough, making this list pointless to re-post. It looks a lot different if you only take the first 3 years into account.

“Thibs is very far from playing his starters the most minutes in the league”

He’s not far at all from doing this. Our starting lineup is the 4th most used lineup in the NBA, even though it has a -8.8 net rating.

Last season he was saved from finishing in the top 5 by having two starting lineups, one with Kemba and one without him. Remarkably, both of our starting lineups were still the 7th and 8th most used lineups in the NBA.

Phil had an agenda, which was to prove himself smarter than everybody else by being the only guy in the league playing basketball the “right” way. Phil sucked as a GM because he was arrogant, brought down by his own hubris. He embarrassed himself.

Nobody other than basketball fanatics really knows who Leon Rose is, so he doesn’t come with that same air of gravitas. But it’s becoming increasingly clear that he doesn’t know how to assemble a coherent team, and is just gonna fake-it-till-you-make-it his way through this gig until Dolan gets bored and starts looking for a new flame to starfuck.

It’s crazy to think that Julius Randle’s miraculous bubble season could be the worst thing to happen to this franchise since — I don’t know — Isiah’s disastrous reign?

When I think about the bubble season, I think a lot about the Giants in 2011. Obviously, a Super Bowl title is a vastly better outcome than a first-round playoff exit. I’m not an idiot. But at the same time, that second SB win over the Patriots was much flukier than the first, involving a roster being held together by spit and baling wire, and an organization in desperate need of a top-to-bottom rethink about how they did things. And instead, Eli worked his magic one more time, the Maras and Jerry Reese and everyone else became convinced that The Giants Way still worked, and it led to a decade of horrific football before the owner was embarrassed enough to make a change.

In the Sliding Doors scenario where Julius Randle does not turn into the second coming of Bernard King for a season, Obi Toppin still may not become more than an energy bench guy. But we would have had a much higher draft pick in an absolutely stacked lottery. We would not have felt compelled to trade for DRose, wouldn’t have re-signed so many of our vets in the offseason, definitely wouldn’t have extended Julius, etc.

While I agree with Brian that Leon is conservative by nature and looking to not get fired, I also believe that if the team had been bad that year, he would have leaned into it, sold Dolan on the idea of creating our own stars, etc. But the mirage of Bubble Julius made all of that impossible.

TNFH, I don’t see the goalposts being moved. Rather some posters think 7 games is premature to conclude where this is headed. I am among those, although I have concluded that RJ making the leap is not going to happen which is a crucial component of Leon’s hybrid approach. So I am left with Obi, IQ, and Grimes, much better coaching (Thibs or someone else) or a mega trade. All were less likely than an RJ leap, but likely enough to wait another 20 games or so.

I don’t think anybody here said we “should” beat the Hawks. I for one am not surprised at all that the Hawks embarrassed us in our own building, because I believe they are a clearly better team than us, despite being a non-contender themselves. I’m not doing the could/should argument with you because I don’t give a shit about it.

We’re not good, therefore we SHOULDN’T be able to beat good teams very often. I don’t believe that we disagree here.

“It is without a doubt true that Obi Toppin is not a great defender, but his offensive numbers just cannot be ignored.”

The answer you’re going to get is that we so desperately need the shot creation abilities of the guy with the .511 TS% that the world would end if he ever played 29 or fewer minutes in a game.

The benefits of said shot creation cannot be seen in Randle’s individual numbers, the individual numbers of anyone else, or multiple seasons’ worth of lineup data, but alas, they are so great that we are not allowed to even see what the team would look like without them.

In all seriousness, I’m not unaware of the need for shot creation on a team. Many, if not most, successful offensive sets involve the defense giving a particular offensive player a disproportionate amount of attention.

But saying that we’re really reaping the benefits of the shot creation abilities of a guy with near league worst efficiency is like the opposite extreme of saying “Melo should’ve given all of his shots to Tyson Chandler.” It’s patently ridiculous at this point.

I mean, Al Jefferson was probably a better “shot creator” than Dwight Howard in their respective primes. No one on Earth would’ve preferred him to Dwight Howard though, because there’s a bare minimum of shots you have to actually hit in order for your shot creation abilities to outweigh a bunch of other considerations.

If a .511 TS% isn’t low enough, how poorly does a “shot creator” have to shoot for his shot creation abilities to not outweigh *everything* else? .400? .300?

I agree with everyone that last night’s game was depressing, but I’m not sure about the cause. If our roster is hopelessly mismatched and lacking on offense and defense why is Thibs to blame for the loss? If a different minutes distribution or in game strategic adjustments could have brought a win is our roster really so terrible?

It hurts that the loss was at home. But home court advantage doesn’t seem to be much of an advantage for the Knicks. Last season they were 20-21 on the road and 17-24 at home.

Tommy Beer posted a photo of Obi Toppin which was actually a photo of a Ferrari in a barn covered in sawdust.

It’s clearly a good chunk of what we will be discussing the next two months.

“ He’s not far at all from doing this. Our starting lineup is the 4th most used lineup in the NBA, even though it has a -8.8 net rating.”

This isn’t the same as playing the starters a lot of minutes. It indicates that Thibs plays a full ten man rotation where he plays the starters together and then brings in a bench unit without starters. Other teams play different sorts of rotations where they substitute for one or two starters at a time. The starters can still play a lot of minutes, they just don’t play them all together as a unit.

“…put someone in the high post and move the ball into the post and out for open looks.”

Thibs, I’d like to introduce you to Mr. Hartenshtein. He plays center for your team and is an acknowledged high-post passer.

“The manner in which we lost isn’t really all that important to me.”

This is where we disagree, partly because there is so much to dig into with this question with this game. Forgetting that we’re roughly a .500 team and in purgatory until such time as we’re not (which is true, but so utterly boring to say over and over because, yeah), what the hell is going to go on with this season (and in particular with this game)?

We literally had the platonic ideal of this team for the first quarter and a half. And then we literally had the worst version of our team for the rest of the game.

Again, I missed most of the second half, but from what I watched we passed like peak Golden State early on, then just stopped doing that and started chucking with no passes. And with our shitty shooters, that’s a recipe for disaster.

Going cold while the other team gets hot is a common thing and it’s why the NBA is a league of runs. The problem is that the Knicks go away from what works for them. And it ends up not in the expected run by the other team that makes it a close game, but a complete collapse. I just don’t understand why Thibs allows that.

You’re all welcome to rail at the front office all you want, or complain about our inefficient and badly spaced front court. I just want to see that platonic ideal, and I curse Thibs for being unable to manage the game in a way that doesn’t let it slip away. Because clearly it COULD be. Even, dare I say it, should be?

Obi had 2 wide open 3’s in the fourth quarter that would have cut the Hawks lead to 7 that he bricked. Would have been a huge momentum swing.

(Unfortunately, I can’t really argue that the guy he subs for would have done any better, his 3 point shots are so off right now it’s scary)

Even with so much stink on the roster, Hartenstein is an infuriating player. He’s a stretch 5 who rarely shoots, a gifted passer who has practically no assists, and an energy guy who does not know how to box out. Thibs is so desperate to trust Hart that he is blind to the truth- Hart is a journeyman scrub.

happy Thursday KB!!!

well, at least the knicks are dependable…we all got that going for us today…

what’s really got my interest at the moment though is the big meal raven put together…details, details, details, please…

This Josh Primo thing just got much uglier. This victim (team psychologist) told the Spurs GM about it in spring and he allegedly did nothing. So now she’s suing.

So it sounds as if the timing wasn’t because the Spurs just found out he was doing this, but that they knew the lawsuit was coming.

” If our roster is hopelessly mismatched and lacking on offense and defense why is Thibs to blame for the loss?”

It can be the case that the roster construction sucks and the coach is a bad fit for it. I’m under no illusion that things would get drastically better under a new coach–Red Holzman couldn’t make Julius Randle and RJ Barrett hit shots–but if the team is going to be bad we should have a coach dedicated to finding out who can make it better in the future. Thibs is quite obviously not that.

“This isn’t the same as playing the starters a lot of minutes.”

I don’t want to be snarky, so can you tell me what “playing the starters a lot of minutes” means if “playing the starting lineup more than almost anyone in the NBA” doesn’t qualify as such?

Even with so much stink on the roster, Hartenstein is an infuriating player. He’s a stretch 5 who rarely shoots, a gifted passer who has practically no assists, and an energy guy who does not know how to box out. Thibs is so desperate to trust Hart that he is blind to the truth- Hart is a journeyman scrub.

I do agree that Thibs seems to have an oversized amount of trust in Hart, even when he’s not doing anything out there.

If you brought the world’s greatest GM in here right now, how would the world’s greatest GM even go about fixing this team? Job one is you’d have to unload Randle and Barrett’s contracts. There are no young players you can build around, but maybe you try to go with a Toppin/Quickley/Grimes core, strip the rest of the team to the studs and go full tank? I honestly don’t know what you’d even do to begin getting this ship heading in the right direction.

There’s no way out of this that isn’t a long and painful slog.

Maybe Thibs follows Kourtney Kellar on instagram and is hoping to meet her?

TNFH, again I think you oversimplify the Randle vs. Obi argument. Shot creation is part of it, but the much bigger part is probably defensive awareness and ability.

“Maybe Thibs follows Kourtney Kellar on instagram and is hoping to meet her?”

Beauty and the Beast

why on earth did I ever think the Spurs were a “model organization”

So it sounds as if the timing wasn’t because the Spurs just found out he was doing this, but that they knew the lawsuit was coming.

which makes their picking up of Primo’s option even more head-scratching — why would they do that?

Obi Toppin is a better basketball player than Julius Randle, virtually without question. That doesn’t mean, however, that Obi is anything special, because Julius Randle is awful. I think this is one of those situations where the symbolism irks more than the reality. Understandably so, but still.

Given his age and his skillset and his limitations, I give Obi very little chance to rise above The Athletic Tier 5 as a player. Better than a JAG (*), but not much above that. There’s nothing wrong with that; Tier 5s are very useful players — but the team’s issues go far beyond their stupidity re Obi/Julius.

(*) Just a guy.

I don’t think the “greatest GM in the world” would want out of RJ’s contract just yet. Randle’s for sure, but not at the cost of assets.

I think they would fire Thibs, waive DRose, hire a young, promising coach, and order that coach to marginalize Randle and Fournier in favor of playing the kids until they can be traded at minimal cost.

Doing that would ensure winning less than 30 games and would buy at least a >5% shot at Wemby and a real good shot at a top-8 player in what seems to be a strong top of the upcoming draft.

As to RJ, he would free up the coach to rein in his game significantly, telling him that if his TS% doesn’t hit .550 like fast, he will be replaced in the starting lineup by a better shooter.

I also think he would be looking to sell high on Mitch, Hart, Obi and Grimes before the trade deadline, in that order.

Z-Man, I pretty much agree with your last post. The solution here is to strip this to the studs. There is nothing here to build around.

Pretty grim.

BTW, RJ has played statistically pretty well in his last 2 games, so he’s not really the problem at the moment…although he might just go back to sucking…that’s another part of the “wait 20 games” feeling on my part.

“I also think he would be looking to sell high on Mitch, Hart, Obi and Grimes before the trade deadline, in that order.”

************************

That group, I’m sorry to report, really wouldn’t bring much back.

The next brick to fall on the 12 Stages of Grief tour we’re about to endure is that the team’s young players really aren’t all that good. Which isn’t to say they’re bad — they aren’t — but that’s a different question.

Consider the following example. Imagine the call I hypothesized to the Pacers late in the preseason. “We’ll give you RJ Barrett, Obi Toppin, Immanuel Quickley, Mitchell Robinson, and Quentin Grimes and you give us Tyrese Haliburton, Bennedict Mathurin, and Chris Duarte.”

Other examples are out there, naturally, but this one has been thrown out before so let’s stick with it.

This right here is virtually the sublimely pure and essential example of NBA Purgatory. They really don’t get much better than this.

I know folks think that we should get assets in return for taking on Westbrook, but maybe the smartest GM in the world says “fuck it, I’ll throw in a protected pick if you take on Randle, Fournier, and Rose.” We’ll even throw in Cam.”

The only move any good GM makes is to strip this thing down and start over. Maybe you hold on to RJ. There is no other serious alternative. It would probably cost all the “extra” 1s to do it and I doubt there’s a single player on the roster that brings you back a single unprotected 1 from anything other than a legit contender or something very close. *Maybe* Brunson does, but I doubt it.

Regarding Porzingis – we should have totally stuck with him through the bad and waited the 7 years for him to develop*.
/s

*not an admission that he has actually developed into something useful at this point in time.

E, They got Tyrese in return for a very good player in Sabonis. So I would limit the discussion to players both teams drafted.

There are at least some options for the World’s Greatest GM (we’ll call him DRed for short) for everything except Randle. Having a $27M AAV guy signed for *four years* that literally no one in the NBA would take for free, or probably even with a protected first, is just a devastating problem.

To make matters worse, there’s no way to trade him painlessly without playing him more because he has to rehabilitate value for that to be possible. Such playing time comes at the direct expense of arguably the best young player on the team (says more about the talent pool, etc.), which prevents Obi from building value of his own.

If we want to go about rebuilding the team in a semi-normal way, we’ll probably eventually have to give up on rehabilitating Randle’s value. We’ll be left praying another team eventually starts to think they can fix him even without seeing proof of concept, and in the absence of that accepting we won’t have real cap flexibility for four seasons. Not good.

It’s the combination of a mismatched roster and nonsensical coaching orthodoxy that dooms the team to actually performing below its mediocre potential in games like last night.

A main lineup of say:
Brunson
Quickley
Barrett
Toppin
Hart

Would be something that a lot of posters here could get behind. Playing RJ Randle and Mitch together is literally pouring gasoline on the fire that is the roster problem. It’s so bad it’s almost comical.

Ok ok ok..I do have one thought on last night’s game.

Watching the first half- I knew we’d likely lose. Look at the way the team was playing before the Murray run. We got most of that 23 point lead by playing one on one basketball. RJ and the 2nd unit were the only ones moving the ball. Julius was in “It’s the Hawks and I usually play well against them” ball-hog mode. Brunson was keyed up because he was going against our new Reggie Miller. And Fournier was in “I’m not a fuckin role player” mode. It was not good basketball even though we jumped to a big lead. And Thibs did nothing to check it. When the 2nd unit was moving the ball and getting easier buckets, he never got in the starters’ ass about too much hero ball. Last night was a total implosion, and it should inform Thibs on how to handle the rotation moving forward. Right now, Thibs is making me eat my words with my “he’s a good coach” talk.

I hate it

Also, is Chris Duarte all that good, i.e. any better than Obi, Grimes or IQ? He’s 25 years old and is a shooter who hasn’t shot all that well, with a BPM of -2.6 (-5.1 so far this year!) And that’s for a #13 pick.

What awful conduct by the Spurs. Downright disgusting. The absolute bare minimum was ensuring Primo and the therapist were never, ever so much as in the same zip code and they wouldn’t even do that.

I’d like to think Pop somehow didn’t know about any of this, but that seems unlikely.

This is some thread. smh

I’m not sure whether I should be rolling on the floor laughing or recommending therapy.

No one on earth thought this was a good team or a finished product yet. We had a poorly constructed mediocre team decimated by injury last year. We added a solid PG and backup C. That’s progress.

We still have a lot of young players that are slowly inching forward and a boatload of 1st round picks. There is still a lot of upside in what we have now and a LOT of excess assets for trades.

The target date for “contender” is probably still a couple of years away unless we land a whale right away (which is unlikely). Many of our young players are still multiple years away from their peak. So we have plenty of time.

One loss to a team that most people assumed was better than us to begin with is not the end of the world. Take a pill and calm down!

If Grimes is ready for some serious minutes, any chance that Thibs might move him into the starting five, sliding Fournier to the 2nd unit?

The hope would be that, at least, the starting five’s defense would improve a bit, and Grimes might be fine with the “role player” mode that Fournier might not.

Fournier might do better in a “run and gun” second unit rather than the “let Brunson, Randle, and RJ take turns dribbling into the lane” offense.

Randle, Fournier, and Rose for Westbrook. No sweeteners or picks involved either way. I’d do that. It works in the trade machine. Then simply give Rose’s role to Westbrook. Move Toppin and one of Grimes/Quickley into the starting lineup.

Fire Thibs.

Then begin to sell off the other pieces for draft capital. The NBA is wide open this year so there should be some interest for some of the more useful pieces around the trade deadline.

Strat, the Knicks will continue to do this your way until Leon Rose is fired.

You can own the results, because they’re doing what you wish for them to do.

Let me ask you this: which of our young players do you think project to be above average NBA starters?

“It’s the combination of a mismatched roster and nonsensical coaching orthodoxy that dooms the team to actually performing below its mediocre potential in games like last night.”

You are right, but you are wrong.

Do you think Thibs is dumb?

He’s not.

He knows there are spacing issues because of Mitch, Randle and RJ.

They want to move Randle, but they don’t want to attach an asset or at least not a good asset. If Thibs benched Randle there’s no way that’s going to help his market value. He’s the better all around player, but he’s struggling again and has to be moved. So you just go with it.

It’s similar with Fournier. He wants to play Grimes, but Grimes has been hurt, Grimes is not the proven shooter that Fournier is and they need space, and they also want to move Fournier, but without attaching an asset.

This is a meaningless season other than trying to improve our players and hopefully tweaking the roster further. There is no rush. We have to be patient in order to do the right things at the right prices.

Hey Strat, can you give us a date at which point you’ll concede this shit doesn’t work? 2027? 2028? 2040?

No one is “impatient.” The problem is not that “it’s taking too long to build a contender.” We’d all be willing to wait years upon years to see a contender. Hinkie my shit up, fam.

The problem is “a contender is not being built.”

This is where you start:

Players who are worth their contracts and have positive asset value (no particular order):

Brunson
Reddish
Toppin
Quickley
McBride
SIms
Grimes

Maybes:

Robinson
Hartenstein

Probably not:

Barrett

Definitely not:

Rose
Fournier

Are you fucking high?:

Randle

“Strat, the Knicks will continue to do this your way until Leon Rose is fired.”

This is NOT about which way to do it.

We tanked to get KP and RJ.

We drafted Knox over Bridges and Frank.

We drafted Obi instead of Hali.

How much evidence do you need before you finally realize that the path is not the issue. It’s luck and execution.

I’m not defending Rose. I think he made a few mistakes.

I’m saying for a bunch of guys that are all about 6-10 year tankathons there is absolutely no patience and an incredibly ridiculous overreaction to a single loss. Thank God you guys aren’t gamblers that had to deal with random losing streaks.

Strat, all that stuff is yesterday’s news and/or sunk costs. The fact that they’ve fail-tanked before is irrelevant to what should be done now.

“Hey Strat, can you give us a date at which point you’ll concede this shit doesn’t work? 2027? 2028? 2040?”

It has worked and continues to work and tanking has worked and continues to work. It has nothing to do with the path, but one is more dependent on lottery balls and draft luck which is harder to value.

We tanked twice to get KP and RJ.

We drafted Knox over Bridges and drafted Frank.

We drafted Obi instead of Hali.

How did drafting work?

Oh I get, if they were only competent they would have selected….. lmao

Well, guess what, if they were only competent they wouldn’t have signed….

“It has worked and continues to work and tanking has worked and continues to work. It has nothing to do with the path, but one is more dependent on lottery balls and luck.”

Sir I asked if you could give us a date

Did the Knicks really intentionally tank twice?

It used to be quite popular around here to make fun of the Sixers for taking 4 seasons to build a perennial 50+ game winner from scratch.

We still doing that?

“Did the Knicks really intentionally tank twice?”

No, Phil Jackson was talking about making the playoffs before 2014-2015. He was just so bad at figuring out which basketball players were good he wound up with the worst team in the NBA.

Prior to 2018-2019 they arguably did, but it was still without any of the asset accumulation you’re supposed to accompany with the “being terrible.”

“Strat, all that stuff is yesterday’s news and/or sunk costs. The fact that they’ve fail-tanked before is irrelevant to what should be done now.”

What they should now is exactly what they should have been trying to do before last night – keep developing RJ, Quick, Obi, Mitch, Hart, Cam, Grimes, Deuce and Sims.

Try to move Randle and Fournier.

Use our excess picks and surplus young players to try to upgrade the roster (especially stretch PF) and keep enough dry powder to swing a big deal when one becomes available (and it will). Those excess picks can also be used in future drafts if something is available.

Good case from Dan Favale for firing Thibs that doesn’t obscure how much blame the front office deserves: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10054506-its-time-for-the-new-york-knicks-to-fire-tom-thibodeau

“What they should now is exactly what they should have been trying to do before last night – keep developing RJ, Quick, Obi, Mitch, Hart, Cam, Grimes, Deuce and Sims.

Try to move Randle and Fournier.”

So keep hoping against hope that some players acquired by this front office have untapped star potential they have yet to show, and try to get get rid of some other players acquired by this front office.

And to think some people blame the front office for our predicament!

>Did the Knicks really intentionally tank twice?<

Don't listen to the Phil haters.

When Phil came in he had almost no 1st round picks and an old roster.

He took over at the end of the prior season and didn't have much time to evaluate the roster, but he started to move players that were trouble or wanted out (Felton and Chandler).

They started the season intending to try to complete but they got off to a slow start because Melo was playing hurt, Amare was struggling and hurt, and JR Smith and Shump were being tag team idiots.

He concluded that the team was not salvageable. So he shut Melo down for surgery and blew up everything for a tank and Towns. They got KP. No pick the next year etc…

He made more than he share of mistakes while in charge. But he purposely tanked the moment he had a chance to evaluate the team, saw that Melo was hurt, saw that JR Smith was an unmovabe idiot etc…

“So keep hoping against hope that some players acquired by this front office have untapped star potential they have yet to show, and try to get get rid of some other players acquired by this front office.”

As I said, I’m not going to defend every move Rose made.

I’m also not going to say “If we had just won that lottery or if we had just selected Hali and Mikal etc..”

That’s all bullshit. It’s about positioning and execution. We are still positioned fairly well. We’ll see if they can execute with all these picks and excess assets.

Omg, not another Phil debate…strat, let it go, I’m begging you!

“Sir I asked if you could give us a date”

As soon as you can give me a date for when I can be certain if we tank we will not only win the lottery but there will be a healthy #1 option there waiting for us.

When I think we are positioned poorly, I’ll be the first one to let you know.

“He made more than he share of mistakes while in charge. But he purposely tanked the moment he had a chance to evaluate the team, saw that Melo was hurt, saw that JR Smith was an unmovabe idiot etc…”

And then immediately after, signed Carmelo Anthony to a 5 year deal with a full no trade clause, signed Derrick Williams and Arron Afflalo instead of getting the pick from the Kings that eventually became Jayson Tatum, signed Courtney Lee to a shitty contract, signed Joakim Noah to a shitty contract that is now enshrined in the all-time shitty contract Mount Rushmore, and as his parting gift used a lottery pick on one of the least talented NBA players I’ve ever had the displeasure of watching in Frank Ntilikina.

Other than that stuff though he was truly a genius.

>Omg, not another Phil debate…strat, let it go, I’m begging you!<

I didn't start it, but I will call out total bullshit.

Don’t worry, I’ll be checking out shortly. I have to prepare for the Breeder’s Cup races. I’ll leave all the people melting down over a single tough loss in your hands. I’ll be back Sunday.

“As soon as you can give me a date for when I can be certain if we tank we will not only win the lottery but there will be a healthy #1 option there waiting for us.”

If we were tanking, I would be more than willing to point to a date in the future at which point I would concede the strategy has not worked. If, for example, we started tanking in 2022, and by 2032 we still hadn’t won 50 games, I would say the strategy failed.

Are you willing to do the same for the hybrid nonsense strategy?

Jesus, which one of you malcontents is named Dan Favale?

This is pretty damning, however:

“Almost two-thirds of Randle’s baskets were coming off assists through the Knicks’ first three games. That share has essentially flipped in the opposite direction over the past four contests, and his total time of possession aligns with the increasing number of touches to nowhere you’re watching. In this span, meanwhile, he is shooting 13.6 percent on jumpers (3-of-22), including 0-of-11 from downtown.”

TNFH,

It may be time to consider a chill pill.

How many times can I say Phil made a lot of mistakes and how many times do we have to see teams fail or succeed using every approach to realize the approach doesn’t matter. It’s the luck and execution. The data is out there. Your a stats guy looks at the stats.

That’s not what we are debating.

Saying he didn’t purposely tank for Towns after evaluating the roster and seeing that Melo was hurt is not true. And not considering the fact that he was missing 2 1st round picks when he took over that old team is ridiculous.

Thibs made a huge mistake of taking out a cohesive red hot bench unit playing with maximum effort on both sides in the second quater like its business as ussual and anothe rday in the office. It wasnt.

If he continus to play the bench and brings starters back in at the begining of the 3rd quater, then we likely win this game. Hope he learns from it.

During Charlotte game, Brunson made the buckets necessary to stop the bleeding. Last night he missed them and then passed the ball laterally deferring to RJ, Randle and Fournier. That can’t continue. He must stay selfishly aggresive and make plays for himsels and set up others when high percentage possesions are crucial.

Phil was hired in 2014. The Knicks had no 1RP that year (Bargnani Lol) but Phil did have a 1RP in 2016 (KP) and traded a previous 1RP for a second 2016 1RP. That player (Jerian Grant) turned out to be a worse player than the player that was traded for him (THJ) but whatever. Then in 2017 Phil had a 1RP that he used on Frank Ntilikina. He was fired before the 2018 draft, but the Knicks had a 1RP that year too. Hellooo Kevin Knox!

So he was not down two first round picks, only one.

Can we all start writing to our senators or something to get DRed installed as GM as soon as possible

strat… the strategy does matter… if you notice with our previous gm’s… even with how bad they were at identifying talent… they’re best picks came at the top of the draft….

phil jackson with a top 5 pick? kp didn’t turn out that bad… phil jackson with a lesser pick…. frank…. steve mills with a top 5 pick.. rj barrett… steve mills with a lesser pick … kevin knox….

you always have to identify and pick the best players no matter where you pick but the higher you are the bigger the pool you can pick from… and the biggest and brightest stars are usually so unanimously so that you won’t be able to pick them later… sometimes you can uncover hidden gems whether thru luck or skill… but the lower you are.. the larger amount of luck required….

and again the hinkie process turned out to be a much quicker process than any of the knicks gms have put forth in the last 20 years… and that came with a host of draft mistakes along with a gm who was determined to throw it all in the waste basket…. that’s the power of getting that generational star…. and picking at the top of the draft just puts you in a better place to get them….

Hinkie took over in 2013 and had four losing seasons, but they’ve been a perennial playoff threat in the five years since then and have won over 60% of their games in that time period. Seems like a better outcome than the dumpster fire we keep alive year after year over here.

Wait a minute, I’m totally wrong, he didn’t have a pick in either 2014 or 2016. The 2014 pick was from the Melo trade and the 2016 pick was the Bargs trade, for some reason those two things were conflated in my mind. So yes, he was short two 1RPs.

He was still terrible.

i mean..there’s so much crappiness in our managmenet and organizational bad luck to sift through ….it’s overwhelming…

in the recent term…seeing Zion and Ja every night do what they do…and watching RJ…it’s really discouraging to see how close we were to really having a superstar versus what looks to be someone who will be a middling starter at best (likely a bench guy for most clubs)…

He was still terrible.

So, so bad.

“you always have to identify and pick the best players no matter where you pick but the higher you are the bigger the pool you can pick from… and the biggest and brightest stars are usually so unanimously so that you won’t be able to pick them later… sometimes you can uncover hidden gems whether thru luck or skill… but the lower you are.. the larger amount of luck required….”

It’s amazing we still apparently have to repeat this even though it’s a concept a five year-olds understand. There’s a reason elementary school kids picking teams for kickball fight over who gets the first pick.

At least we’re currently slated to pick 10th, 14th, & 16th

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold up. With all due respect to wiser posters here, last night was exactly what should have happened (except we lost). This entire year exists only to answer these questions:

Can Obi really play?
Can Mitch compete against top tier centers?
Can RJ improve his efficiency?
Can IQ find a consistent role?
Can Cam contribute?
Can Grimes walk?

Contrary to last year, and in all cases, Thibs gave these exact players the chance to answer these exact questions (agreed, TNFH, 18 minutes could/should be more for Obi, but it *is* still more than usual).

So — bummer — last night, our young guys were awful except for some good-ish work from IQ, plus Grimes proved he can still walk. But that’s okay. I know y’all disagree, but I insist It Is Okay They Sucked. We just need the data, because now:

Will Obi come back strong or shrink from the spotlight’s glare? (He really f-ed up last night, so it’s def. on his mind). Will Mitch bounce back? Can RJ play even more within himself? Someone above mentioned RJ’s efficiency is “improving.” He had a couple nice assists (5). He’s 22. More data, please. Does Cam have anything else to show? Can Grimes do more than just walk? As long as Thibs doesn’t bench any of those guys for their failures last night, we’re still in the correct business of getting more data.

And, yes, yes, yes, yes, I know, “We should trade Randle, waive Rose, trade Fournier, draft Hali (;-))” and so on, but we’ve known that for two years. The whole time we’ve been begging for games like last night. It was an abject failure and some of the ugliest basketball we can imagine and yet I’m eager for more 😉

“Hinkie took over in 2013 and had four losing seasons, but they’ve been a perennial playoff threat in the five years since then and have won over 60% of their games in that time period. Seems like a better outcome than the dumpster fire we keep alive year after year over here.”

Yeah, people used to say that he took embarrassingly long to put together a good team (and dismissed the Colangelo sabotage as nothing but an excuse) but you hear that less and less these days because it’s obvious the Knicks are going to take longer to put together a worse team.

At least we’re currently slated to pick 10th, 14th, & 16th

Wow! Great point! Come on, Wizards! And come on, rest of the Western Conference!

What’s the problem, though? We signed the fifth best player on the school next door’s kickball team!!

Strat, you don’t need the number 1 pick for tanking to be effective. It often helps, but there’s plenty of stars even if you miss the top pick.

For instance this upcoming draft should be very deep. It’s not just Wembanyama. Its Scoot, it’s the Thompson twins, it’s a bunch of players I don’t want to need to start watching yet, but the talent is there this year if we decide to tank for it.

KBA, I don’t disagree with your suggestions as to what we should try to glean from this season. The reason this thread is going to be 200+ comments is because the Knicks, as represented by some combination of the coach and the front office, disagree.

We’re not going to find out much about Obi, either for ourselves or for other teams deciding how to value him, because Julius Randle is guaranteed 30+ minutes every single night. We know he has great per-minute numbers, but we have no idea if he can keep them up with starter’s minutes and other teams will regard him as a bench player until we find out.

We’re not going to find out much about Cam, because seeing what he can do runs the risk of the answer being “what he’s always done, play badly.” I think we should take that risk, as high as it is, because finding out definitively is much more valuable than winning some extra games, but again, the Knicks do not agree.

We *will* probably collect good data on RJ, IQ, and Grimes largely because we don’t really have a choice. So that’s good. Sadly the early returns on that data are looking pretty grim in RJ’s case, pretty unexciting in IQ’s case, and non-existent in Grimes’ case.

RJ has 1, I repeat 1(!!!) steal in 244 minutes this season. Is he wearing a straight jacket? Having a player who applies zero ball pressure guarding the opposing teams best guard/wing ain’t gonna work. Obviously it’s only because neither Brunson or Fournier can keep anybody in front of them but RJ’s got to at least try to get into guys a little bit. If Grimes can stay healthy and is at least decent from three he’s almost certain to slide into the starting lineup eventually.

I’m all for the hybrid method, if you’re Pat Riley or Masai Uijiri. It takes some top notch talent evaluation. Leon Rose is not the guy you want doing that job. He’s not a basketball guy, he doesn’t know X’s and O’s. He’s not going to be able to compete with the Pat Rileys of the world, he simply does not have the knowledge base to consistently make shrewd incremental moves the way the truly brightest GMs can.

So to fix the Knicks:

(1) Fix Randle & RJ’s 3pt shot
(2) Play IQ more & Fournier less
(3) If Randle doesn’t shoot better, play Obi with the starters more often
(4) Grimes and/ or Deuce should be used to solidify the defense

Yes, TNFH. Do the Knicks front office and coach agree or disagree that our priority should be getting more intel on Obi, et al? That really is the question.

Until this year, I totally believed Thibs was too rigid (obvs), but he now shows signs of change, and I believe the minutes allocation last night bears that out. We didn’t lose with Julius and/or RJ playing 40+ minutes. Honestly, if Obi hits 1 of his 3 late threes, plus that put-back layup, and that dunk (!), we are likely having a different conversation this morning — even in a loss. EDIT: Because I think Obi would have stayed in the game.

Mainly, I hope Thibs does not regress, does not shorten his rotation, does not penalize the young players for screwing up last night b/c all young players screw up. That’s the point. Credit to coach for putting Obi in a position to contribute for real last night. Obi failed, but I hope Thibs continues to do so. Credit to coach for drawing up a play for Cam several games ago that tied the score. I hope Thibs continues to do so. This year coach is not yet the same guy who set our watches with his Elfrid Payton substitutions.

Likewise, I do not believe the front office is in total win now mode. Everyone always says that about the Knicks, but I don’t see it this year. I’ve argued before that Leon has a parallel interest in getting data on his young kids — win or lose — b/c Ainge et al believe they are overvalued. I think Leon wants to prove his case and will suffer some growing pains to wring trade value out of whomever he can, if only to ship them out for a star.

The fans show up either way. I think Leon gets that. The Nets being on fire across the river is also a help.

I agree with TNFH almost entirely. I will say one relatively counter thing though, which is that the association decision makers don’t necessarily need full data on, say, Obi Toppin playing starter’s minutes to be able to make a sensible, if not in some instances very insightful, projections and decisions as to how Obi Toppin will play in starter’s minutes.

Indeed, that’s how one team can fleece another (in basketball, other sports, or assets). Team 1 doesn’t think Obi Toppin can play well as a starter, Team 2 thinks he can and is able to obtain Obi Toppin from Team 1 for far less than he’s really worth.

Unfortunately, the other implication/ramification of this reality is that it’s not entirely accurate to say that Obi Toppin’s value on the market has been dampened materially by the fact that the Knicks haven’t played him starter’s minutes. This follows directly from the initial observation.

As armchair “GM,” I project Obi as a Tier 5 guy and I’d pay Tier 5 prices for him.(*) I don’t see a lot of extra info gain if he plays 28 or 32 minutes than if he plays 20. I’ve seen enough of him to formalize my projection and opinion. (But let’s not confuse this with the different question of whether for strictly immediate basketball reasons Obi Toppin should be playing way more minutes in lieu of Julius Randle — he should.)

(*) I personally think he’s in Tier 5 right now even though the Athletic guy didn’t put him there. I don’t project him to ever go any higher than that. Tier 5 again is essentially, paraphrasing, “clearly better than JAG, contributor of some but not a lot of equity to a championship-level team.” Tier 4 is a pretty big step up from that, your Jalen Brunson types.(**) I don’t expect Obi to ever get there.

(**) Dejounte is a Tier 4 guy as classified, but that’s an underbid. But it shows the general magnitude of the step up from 5.

As armchair “GM,” I project Obi as a Tier 5 guy and I’d pay Tier 5 prices for him.(*) I don’t see a lot of extra info gain if he plays 28 or 32 minutes than if he plays 20. I’ve seen enough of him to formalize my projection and opinion.

Again, this is the key. Many here, like you, have made up their minds about Obi’s value (and RJ’s, Mitch’s, IQ’s, Grimes’s, Cam’s). I don’t begrudge you those opinions. I think this season exists to convince the rest of us — right or wrong.

Keep it going, KBA, i’m getting more optimistic reading your comments. 😉

It is in fact my precise fear that another team will buy low on Obi in this fashion. Thing is, I’m actually cautiously optimistic the Knicks wouldn’t abide, because they tripped over themselves to draft Obi and seemed intent on giving him the reigns before they got had by a goofy season in which fans weren’t allowed in arenas.

I think the Knicks know the status quo with Randle and Obi sucks, they just have no ability to do anything about it because no one wants Randle and, as of now, they’re unwilling to just accept Randle is a sunk cost.

How much more god awful play we’ll need from Randle before the latter becomes a more serious option is an interesting question. If at the all-star break he’s still rocking a farewell tour Kobe TS%, marking 120 or so games playing terribly, what happens?

I am totally with KBA on this one. I’d add we got some important data on our starters, and some of the non-kid bench guys. Unfortunately very little of it was good. But as the scientists say, negative data is also good data.

And much more interesting to parse those data than to lean one’s chair back against the general store wall, start whittlin’ and spittin’, and argue about that high school football game y’all lost back in the day…

With the case now settled, anyone thinking Miles Bridges to the Nets?

It’d be a great fit, in so many ways…

ObiMuse
@ObiMuse

Obi Toppin has 9 less FGM this season than Julius Randle, with

— 105 Less Minutes played
— 48 Less FGA

Huge break for the next game, giving the Knicks a very good shot at getting back to .500. Embiid is out, but Harden is going to miss a month from a tendon injury. So the Knicks should be able to beat up an Embiid-less/Harden-less Sixers team.

The worst thing about yesterday to me is that they appeared to give up. All the bad habits are back. They may be beginning to tune Thibs out. If they don’t come out with some fire against Philly, it may be time to let Thibs go and bring in a new voice.

I’m betting on a Tyrese Maxey career high. 😛

After last night’s game, the Knicks are 15.6 pts/100 better when IQ plays (+8.7) than when he sits (-6.9). Conversely, they are 20.2 pts/100 better when Fournier sits (+11.0) than when he plays (-9.2)

Fournier has looked really bad and needs to sit.

I wonder if Kyrie’s press conference — a catastrophe even by the standards of the modern non-apology apology — will finally force Adam Silver’s hand about suspending him. This is not going away. Nor should it.

Cyber is exactly right. Thanks to Brian, Maxey is now going to score 70.

This Kyrie stuff is total malarkey.Unless malarkey can’t be dangerous which this clearly is.

As for Miles Bridges, the deal keeps him out of prison, but pleading no contest to those charges could also keep him out of the league. Or, yes, maybe the Nets will lean even harder into this heel turn and sign this piece of trash to play next to Kyrie and be coached by Udoka.

***Huge break for the next game, giving the Knicks a very good shot at getting back to .500. Embiid is out, but Harden is going to miss a month from a tendon injury. So the Knicks should be able to beat up an Embiid-less/Harden-less Sixers team.***

And even more importantly, De’Logan Melton had his knee Kendall’d in a dumbwaiter (or something like that) and missed yesterday’s game for the Sixers, further opening the door to the knicks losing in tragic, undermatched fashion.

I don’t want to be snarky, so can you tell me what “playing the starters a lot of minutes” means if “playing the starting lineup more than almost anyone in the NBA” doesn’t qualify as such?

Z-man, i did explain but apparently I wasn’t clear about it. Consider a two man lineup example, where the starting lineup is Mitch and Randle. One coach plays Randle and Mitch together for thirty minutes. The other eighteen minutes neither play and instead Obi and Ihart play so they each get eighteen minutes. Another coach plays Randle with Mitch for eighteen minutes and Randle with Ihart eighteen minutes. Mitch also plays for the twelve minutes Randle wasn’t in the floor. In the first case the starting line up plays thirty minutes a game and the starters (Mitch and Randle) play thirty minutes a game. In the second case the starting lineup played eighteen minutes a game even though Randle and Mitch played thirty six and thirty minutes respectively. By starting line up time (the stat you quoted) the first lineup is starter heavy. But by actual minutes played, the Randle plays more in the second case. So leading in line up total minutes together doesn’t mean leading in total minutes.

Wow, the Nets did something. Amazing. Good for them.

https://twitter.com/shamscharania/status/1588316913016655872?s=61&t=C8mI9d_c86VeusXoj9aJQQ

Wow indeed. ‘Unfit’ is fairly powerful language.

Now we just need to ensure that the 45 million QAnon followers also ‘satisfy a series of objective remedial measures.’

As the line goes, that’ll work…

I’m glad the Nets did something. But it just drives home the point they should have traded Kyrie at the beginning of last season to some team where he would have played all the games instead of refusing to play in more than half of them.

I’m sure Kyrie is going to get right to work on those remedial measures.

I wonder if we’ll see him in the NBA again.

“Now we just need to ensure that the 45 million QAnon followers also ‘satisfy a series of objective remedial measures.’”

Wait…is someone commenting on a New York Knicks blog ignorant of the long and well established history of anti-semitism among African-Americans? Hint: It predates Qanon by a lot.

Mike

Now that the hope of signing Kyrie in the offseason seems dead, I wonder if the Lakers will be more willing to acquire pieces with contracts past this year. I’m not saying they will take our puu puu platter, just that they might be willing to take Hield or somebody else with a longer contract.

“Z-man, i did explain but apparently I wasn’t clear about it.”

You were to me, but not to someone else 🙂

will be interesting if the NBPA (which I believe he is like the co-head of or something) will side with him or just be silent…

I have zero sympathy whatsoever for Kyrie and I’m delighted he’s *finally* facing something resembling consequences, but I also find this all pretty sad.

It’s just a horror story about the modern internet. The guy probably had no opinions about Jewish people until he went down some rabbit hole one day, and because he’s an idiot he quickly developed Stage 4 YouTube Brain.

I don’t have any brilliant ideas as to how to fix this problem, but I know tons of people across generations are encountering garbage on the internet and in many cases the consequences are worse than Kyrie’s dumbass spouting off nonsense on Twitter and at press conferences.

How about a point guard we all like?

SGA 17 points in the first quarter on 6-7 and 7-7 from the line. Also a -13 somehow.

OKC is 4-3. Didn’t realize that.

Kyrie, as evidenced by past nonsense, is clearly susceptible to nonsense. And this particular rabbit hole is one of the oldest ones around.

But KFINJ, we can very easily see how many minutes Thibs plays individual starters. Last season Julius Randle was 10th in the *entire NBA* in MPG despite being arguably the worst player in the league. RJ was 21st despite also being terrible. This is a pattern with Thibs dating back years–he always has players on these leaderboards regardless of the merits.

At least Thibs has some company this year with Doc Rivers playing Harden huge minutes despite coming off of a soft tissue injury and then, shockingly, he now has a tendon injury putting him out of commission for a month.

Kyrie is never going to back down, right? So is this it for him as a Net?

I subscribe to what TNFH said.

I’ll also note that it sounds like Kyrie gave essentially an “all lives matter” answer. I’m having a hard time understanding — outside of the sheer conscious exercise of power — why that isn’t sufficient. As a matter of grammar and English, it plainly answers the “charge.” I confess to being confused as to why there’s some mandatory *requirement* that the explanation *must* be on*precisely* the terms demanded, if it’s otherwise grammatically correct and shows no sense whatever of any racism/antisemitism.

Seems a bit like bullying. Some human beings out there get their backs up when other people gang up on them and start making demands. It’s a perfectly normal human reaction, even if we as humans vary in our propensity to do it.

Anyone out there ever hear “Welcome to the Terrordome”?

The Primo thing is very weird. It appears that his therapist is claiming that his private parts were visible under his workout shorts on 9 separate occasions. Even if it was inadvertent, once she notified the Spurs FO, obviously they were obligated to act on the complaint. That’s like “hostile workplace 101” shit.

It reminds me of the annual online training webinars I had to do for the DOE…the scenarios were so blatantly obvious, and this one would have fallen right in.

E, the answer he gave was that he can’t be anti-Semitic because he “knows where he comes from,” which seemed to be an allusion to the very conspiracy theory espoused by the video that started this disaster (that the people known to be Jews are actually faking it, basically).

When you read through the lawyer speak and bluster of Primo’s lawyer’s statement, it basically amounts to a full confession. They must really have him dead to rights.

I meant the “I love all races” answer (or words to that effect).

I’m getting some of this secondhand — it’s frankly too stupid and old hat (the Terrordome reference) to warrant much more attention — therefore running the risk of a big ol’ egg on my face, but my general understanding is that he was asked to denounce antisemitism and said in words or substance, “I love all races.” I think there was a tweet to that effect and a verbalization.

That could be wrong and I reserve the right to change my mind and withdraw all this if it’s factually wrong. I don’t think it is, but it might be.

I guess Kyrie hates money?

And the book he was referencing is apparently now the #1 book in two categories. (General purpose racism? Niche racism?)

When you do something like this you generally have to apologize for what you have done. Not just say I love all people.

I don’t know, he’s a dipshit and not worthy of our time. I think we all agree on that.

And further more, E, who cares if Kyrie feels backed into a corner to act contrite and use specific words to disavow his offense? You offend enough people, you will be backed into a corner.

I almost want to get back on twitter just so I can tweet at Kevin Durant. “Hey, Kev, how cool are the Nets right now?”

Also, if the Knicks got KD are they top 4 in the East?? Asking for a friend. 😬

He wasn’t suspended for the all-lives matter type answer. He was suspended because:

1) He was given a chance to apologize for promoting a book/movie that, among other things, denied the Holocaust, and he didn’t do it

2) When he was asked point blank “are you anti-Semitic” he seemed to allude to an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory

It’s just a horror story about the modern internet. The guy probably had no opinions about Jewish people until he went down some rabbit hole one day, and because he’s an idiot he quickly developed Stage 4 YouTube Brain.

It really seems like he’s looking for rabbit holes though so I can’t absolve him for that. Amar’e went down that same rabbit hole- his mother was a Black Hebrew- but with genuine curiosity and wound up converting to actual Judaism and becoming an Israeli citizen. Kyrie’s just a toxic jerk.

SGA has 25 points in 11 shots in 19 minutes against a pretty good team…

First there was The Borg. Then there was The Dort.

Jokic always looks like he just got punched in the nose or has a terrible cold…

Jokic with maybe the worst pass of his career…

OMG the Magic players must have gotten yelled at for not tanking this game, Banchero just turned it over with 4.9 left and up one…but Klay misses so lol! Suggs finally looked like a #5 pick tonight…

“Jokic always looks like he just got punched in the nose or has a terrible cold…”

yeah…what’s up with that…he’s like Rudolph…

SGA is unstoppable tonight

Lu Dort seems like a guy I would love if he were a Knick

Warriors have lost 4 in a row to the Hornets, Pistons, Heat and Magic

Fire Steve Kerr?

Poku! Doing some fun stuff out there.

Grant Hill is on an elite list of ballers who don’t annoy me when they commentate.

There actually seem to be a few former players coming in who might better than Mark Jackson. Strange

It’s possible that all five Thunder players on the court right now combined weigh less than Jokic…

After a mostly injury plagued rookie year it became popular to cite Jalen Suggs as an example of the perils of tanking. The Early Victory Lap Curse is undefeated it seems.

Wow, nice dunk from Murray

JAMAL MURRAY!! What a reverse one-handed jam in traffic!

Amar’e went down that same rabbit hole- his mother was a Black Hebrew- but with genuine curiosity and wound up converting to actual Judaism and becoming an Israeli citizen. Kyrie’s just a toxic jerk.

I too mentioned Amar’e and his history during the Hawks game bc he was featured in the box with Starks. I wonder if there’s a way to educate Kyrie with Amar’e taking some sort of lead role for the NBA. At least from a PR perspective it might make sense if not actually change the mind of a committed flat-earther.

Poku is just crazy to look at but he has done some really nice stuff.

can’t really remember seeing a finish quite like what murray just did. more a backward dunk than a reverse dunk.

Triple double for Jokic

Yeah, and doing it through/over two guys

“can’t really remember seeing a finish quite like what murray just did. more a backward dunk than a reverse dunk.”

Yeah, kind of, he was like going away from the basked and just cuffed it behind him. To quote my man Avery Johnson, “WowWow!”

Jeff Green has to be the most average player in the history of the NBA. With 90 million in career earnings.

But KFINJ, we can very easily see how many minutes Thibs plays individual starters. Last season Julius Randle was 10th in the *entire NBA* in MPG despite being arguably the worst player in the league. RJ was 21st despite also being terrible. This is a pattern with Thibs dating back years–he always has players on these leaderboards regardless of the merits.

I was referring to this season, not last season. That is what Z-man was discussing in his original post. I don’t know how to look up most minutes per game bynn be players in the NBA, but last season Randle played 35.3 minutes per game and so far this season he’s playing 32.) minutes per game. So I doubt he is anywhere near 10th in the league this season.

I do agree Barrett is playing too many minutes. But in Thibs defense, Obi is better this year and getting more minutes as Randle’s backup. But Barrett’s backup seems to be Reddish, and I suspect Thibs considers Reddish a weaker substitution, especially on defense. But it something to be discussed.

The Kyrie stuff is almost to insane to get into. Maybe he will move to Africa with his remaining money and start a kibbutz (if a Semite like him doesn’t know what that is, he should look into it.)

NBA’s not looking so hot these days. Pickleball, anyone?

“Jokic always looks like he just got punched in the nose or has a terrible cold…”

yeah…what’s up with that…he’s like Rudolph…

it’s magic dust…a little magic dust for the reindeer, a little magic dust for jokic…

i can’t take anymore of this world series…fuck the astros…

Randle is tied for 61st in mpg so far this year. RJ is 30th. Brunson is 45th.

Fun fact: Julius has not hit a 3 pointer in 4 straight games (0-11) and was 2-9 in the game before that, making him 2 for his last 20.

After a mostly injury plagued rookie year it became popular to cite Jalen Suggs as an example of the perils of tanking. The Early Victory Lap Curse is undefeated it seems.

Who’s taking the early victory lap now? He had a good game and I think he’ll be fine but one nice game proves absolutely nothing. It was ridiculous to write him off last year but just as ridiculous to think he’s proven that he was of a high draft choice off of one game- obviously tiny sample size but he came in with a .506 TS% and turnover rate of 25%.

It’s just a horror story about the modern internet. The guy probably had no opinions about Jewish people until he went down some rabbit hole one day, and because he’s an idiot he quickly developed Stage 4 YouTube Brain.

I don’t have any brilliant ideas as to how to fix this problem, but I know tons of people across generations are encountering garbage on the internet and in many cases the consequences are worse than Kyrie’s dumbass spouting off nonsense on Twitter and at press conferences.

you got the right of it noble, this is something…not something new, but, something similar on a whole other level of capacity for transmission…

very much like the ever increasing lethality capability of – just about everyone and anyone times 7.whatever billion people – this weaponization and transmission of violence based ideas is really alarming…

it is something…old but new and potentially way worse…

So RJ is the minutes leader on the team and he plays fewer minutes than the top 29 guys in the league. If those 29 guys were all on different teams then every single team would be playing its leading starter more than Thibs is. I know Thibs has overused players in the past but it sounds like he’s at the opposite end of the coaching spectrum now. Whatever is wrong with the Knicks it’s not that Thibs is overusing players.

So I will have the pleasure of going to Sat night’s Knicks-Celtics game. Never mind that it’s on the tail end of a b2b. Me and Owen might bump into each other in a trauma support group…

Candace Parker is terrific on NBATV…

SO excited that what I wrote awoke The Bunge from his ‘wretched state,’ even if he did completely misinterpret what I wrote.

In today’s Post article, Thibs seems reluctant to make changes to the starting lineup (surprise, surprise) but they wrote this about our defensive rebounding:

“Atlanta slaughtered them on the offensive glass, producing 18 second-chance points on 17 offensive boards. In the previous game, the Cavaliers had 19 offensive rebounds. The Knicks want to run and create transition opportunities, but that only can happen if they are able to control their defensive glass. Thibodeau has liked their half-court defense. The Knicks are second in the NBA in field goal percentage defense at 42.6 percent. But they have to finish those possessions.”

That’s a huge issue right there. We need to box out better, period.

https://nypost.com/2022/11/03/kyrie-irving-can-go-to-hell-with-his-anti-semitic-stupidity/

Here’s the full Post link with Thibs’ quotes, btw: https://nypost.com/2022/11/03/tom-thibodeau-not-in-rush-to-shake-up-knicks-starting-lineup/

Like they used to say on Battlestar Galactica, all of this has happened before, and it will all happen again.

I notice that as soon as Kyrie was suspended for five games he issued something that seemed like an actual apology. They should have been tough with him sooner.

Yep, our regional nightmare is now over it appears.

I wonder what his next flight of fancy will be.

Recent Posts

Recent Comments

Archives

222 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.11.03)”