2020-21 SEASON OPENER Thread: Knicks @ Pacers

Quick quick

So did Burks, though, and Burks is coming off of a much better season.

Bullock didn’t play with Payton anywhere close to enough to have earned a start. He did play well with Quickley.

It’s a strange lineup; all that can be done is that turning the offense over to Payton/Randle is on its last legs even if those legs last until the end of 20-21. Look for Payton/Randle to hog and not look at anyone else and RJ to stand in the corner or at the arc never getting the ball. Maybe a miracle will happen and that will change. Not really sure what exactly it is Thibs and staff are seeing. This lineup was dreadful in the preseason.

so that means off the bench we are going to see Obi, Noel and Burks. If Rivers was healthy, that would be 9. Meanwhile, we have Frank / Knox and even Smith who need minutes or why bother? Not sure why Bullock sees the floor (unless of course we are trying to win?)

Gimme Win or gimme Win!

The real winners are the time we spent together as fellow Knick fans

Knickerbloggers tilt heads and stare off into distance.

Cue flashback to KBers yelling at each other over Frank, politics, & Covid.

One single flashback about a pleasant time discussing music.

Back to yelling at each other, this time over Killian Hayes, IQ, and somehow Frank still.

Return to present, KBers smile and nod their heads knowingly.

Jesus, Wally — Randle did not have a “phenomenal” preseason. Just stop already.

Since it’s the dawn of a new era, figured I’d try something new. Ledaig 10yo, from the Isle of Hull.

cybersoze:
Was going to vote for the Knicks, when i saw the last option… there was no chance i wouldn’t click on that marvelous option (it’s the GOAT of options on our polls)! 😉

Go NY, go NY, gooooooooo!!!

I had to +1 that …. for obvious reasons!

What should be noted is that everyone in the lineup played on the team last year. They’re familiar with each other.

Ugh, I’m staying at relative’s house for a few days and only just now realized that my access to MSG via Comcast is in-home only. So even though I’ve got the Xfinity app on the TV here, plus my laptop, I appear to be out of luck for the game, unless anyone has a quick suggestion.

UPDATE: Nevermind. I thought MSG Go wasn’t going to work for me here, either, but I finally got it to work by switching browsers.

GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever:
What should be noted is that everyone in the lineup played on the team last year. They’re familiar with each other.

Yeah I was thinking thar re: Bollock, more of a tiebreaker seniority thing. I think Bullock is a better 3pt shooter and defender, while Burks is a better at shot creation. Bullock might be the better fit with RJ

By the way, Joinone was right, I can’t watch the game on Ten EBr sports. Instead I was given a link for a free stream. Amazingly, it’s in English, but, on the other hand it’s the Pacers broadcast. I’ll be able to watch the first quarter or so on the bus going to work

here’s to being undefeated!

Haiku for a new season…

Youth be served today
Basketball is back in play
This marks a New Year

Randle already in mid-season form.

Has anyone ever seen Zach Randolph and Julius Randle at the same time?

It just sort of hit me they are very similar players.

Maybe do a pick and roll? Just one?

they call him R Trey now

That was an offensive foul on Sabonis that wasn’t called.

Sabonis is a weird looking guy

Sabonis is soooooo good.

That was a BS call on Mitch, though. The first foul was legit. Not that one.

no foul there

The spacing on offense is so shitty now.

Personally, I don’t care if Mitch starts or not. I want to maximize his minutes on the court because he’s the better player. If he gets in foul trouble quickly against good big men like Turner or the craftier Sabonis, what good is starting if he plays less minutes than he would coming off the bench dominating scrubs and playing less minutes against players that will know to and try to get him in foul trouble. We want him at the end too. Good test for him tonight.

And just like that, here we are already.

Don’t care if the Knicks lose all 72 games, if RJ looks this good it will be worth it.

I am listening to the game on SiriusXM and there is about a 2/3 second delay from the board. I feel like everyone here is psychic when you call made shots.

To be fair, you may be psychic for all I know.

Why was Mitch on Sabonis anyway? Let Randle guard him…

And just like that, here we are already.

It wasn’t a foul, though. Hard to knock a guy for fouling when the refs call a fake foul on him.

NBA officials are trash.

Mitch should have no fouls on him. Sabonis clearly initiated contact on the first and the second was a clear block.

The Sabonis move at least doesn’t get called often. The other foul was just a total botched call.

I am listening to the game on SiriusXM and there is about a 2/3 second delay from the board. I feel like everyone here is psychic when you call made shots.

To be fair, you may be psychic for all I know.

oh my goodness perverse osmosis – i totally knew you were about to write that…

What was Bullock doing there?

Just a brain fart. He was playing hard, at least.

Mitch did a good job on Sabonis, and he’s more likely to be near the basket than Turner which is where you want Mitch.

I want Mitch near the basket, but on man-to-move coverage, I’d like Randle on Sabonis.

Beautiful block by Noel!

What a move by RJ!

If RJ can shoot and drive like that. Oh my.

Whatever actor RJ resembles, he’s looking fabulous so far. Love it.

Why is Payton passing it to a man pinned to the sideline?

The flaw in replacing foul happy Mitch with Nerlens is that Noel is at least as foul happy as Mitch is

I can’t believe how good RJ looks this season.

Barrett has 10 points in 10 minutes!

Payton looking like ass lol

Brian Cronin: It wasn’t a foul, though. Hard to knock a guy for fouling when the refs call a fake foul on him.

I understand what you are saying, but Sabonis is very crafty and knows how to create contact and draw fouls and fake them. This kind of stuff won’t happen against scrubs (like on the Cavs). When Drummond was matched against Mitch he also made some moves on him. So yes, he’s the better player with way more upside than Nerlens, but against some players he may get fewer minutes or be less effective if he starts instead just dominating off the bench. He’s got to get past this eventually. It’s part of the learning process.

I understand what you are saying, but Sabonis is very crafty and knows how to create contact and draw fouls. This kind of stuff won’t happen against scrubs (like on the Cavs). When Drummond was matched against Mitch he also made some moves on him. So yes, he’s the better player with way more upside than Nerlens, but against some players he may get fewer minutes or be less effective if he starts instead just dominating off the bench. He’s got to get past this eventually. It’s part of the learning process.

But his backup is Noel, who has two quick fouls, as well. There is no logical reason to not start Mitch.

We have our first instance of the season of Clyde saying the other team is in disarray!

We’ve been pretty sloppy, too, but RJ and Randle are both playing like the best versions of themselves so far. And now Quickley’s in. (Meanwhile, who would have thought that in the season opener, Obi would at best be the fourth guy off the bench? I thought for sure when Noel picked up his second foul, Thibs would go to the Obi/Randle frontcourt.)

The reason not to start Mitch is to have him play less against Sabonis.

Maybe, Pepper? Here’s Duke as a young man. Not quite RJ, but the eyes are in the area. It’s a cliche for me, but I feel like it’s someone from The Wire, maybe? Or Aldis Hodge? It’ll come to me…

Breen thought Mitch’s 2nd foul was a clean block, fwiw. He doesn’t disagree with the refs without reason.

Knicks lead the NBA in 3pt%

Bill Duke, the pride of Poughkeepsie.

These refs stink.

Refs really suck

McDermott throwing it down?!?!

God, I love that Quickley is already making defenders nuts with how he draws fouls on shots that have no hope of going in.

lol Quickley taking advantage of the crap reffing. love him

Mike seems to think that pass was real sweet but it was telegraphed from the other side of the damn country, which is why Randle got stuffed.

McConnell did the same thing that Bullock got whistled for

Mike seems to think that pass was real sweet but it was telegraphed from the other side of the damn country, which is why Randle got stuffed.

Yeah, it looked nice, but I agree that it really didn’t set Randle up to succeed there.

That second foul on Mitch. Heartbreaking. But this Quickley foul is a karmic makeover.

They look good so far. So do the Pacers. Myles Turner is one of the few guys in the NBA who can legit matchup with Mitch. I also really wish we had signed Brogdon, though that wasn’t ever happening. I really like him,

Also, watched a little bit with my 6 year old son for the first time which is a story for tmw.

IQ took a step forward before he jumped up which probably helped seal it

Fine opening quarter.

Sadly, I don’t think the Knicks will continue to shoot 63% from three.
🙂
I see Randle leads the Knicks in assists and turnovers.

Watching Payton play makes me puke every single time.
Randle is a rollercoaster ride that I’d rather avoid.
Barrett’s playing really well.
Quickley alone has more BBIQ than Payton and Randle combined.
The referees are baaaaad.

The Pacers are missing so many open threes.

Why aren’t they trying the pick and roll at all?

Never mind who RJ looks like. Sabonis looks like every 80’s villain.

Huh? That quote 3 posts above wasn’t by me.

That’s the kind of foul Mitch simply cannot afford.
Come on man.

randle is going to lead the league in minutes… and rj is going to be #2…

Knicks lead!

How did no good teams want Burks?!?

Sabonis is a problem.

First Cronin of the year!

Toppin’s jumper looks extremely dehydrated

I can’t believe Burks has been in the year for 10 years

I’m shocked by how bad Sabonis’ free throw shooting has been tonight.

I’m honestly a little surprised Burks was available at 1/$6M. Feels like a pick waiting to happen if we don’t insist on chasing the 10th seed.

I’m honestly a little surprised Burks was available at 1/$6M. Feels like a pick waiting to happen if we don’t insist on chasing the 10th seed.

It didn’t make any sense.

Oh Knox.

Excellent d right there

When did McDermott become this good?

You can only hope to contain Doug McDermott.

obi needs to drive….

McBuckets is slashing and dashing

We could probably use McDermott. #nevermind

is Smith jr still on the team?

McBuckets is slashing and dashing

Him throwing it down earlier was nuts.

Kevin Knox still looks like a runaway car with no breaks on the fast break.

Brian Cronin:
I’m shocked by how bad Sabonis’ free throw shooting has been tonight.

He worked with Keith Smart this summer.

dere you go obi

I did not have Doug McDermott on my “best player of the game” list.

rj having a strong half

Knicks up two, with the Pacers shooting 2 for 15 from three and the Knicks 7 for 12.

Toppin’s passing and willingness to do so is a nice development so far in his young career.

quickly getting minutes

Nice pass by Obi!

Pacers are really pushing it with the fouls.

Alec Burks seems to be this year’s Marcus Morris.

Shit, hopefully Quickley’s hip is okay.

Thibs shoulda challenged.

Brian Cronin:
Shit, hopefully Quickley’s hip is okay.

Yeah, hopefully just a tweak

Yeah, you don’t want to see that. And right when I was about to note how conspicuous Payton’s absence had been.

Here I am already wishing we’d signed Burks to a 3 year deal instead of 1.

Here I am already wishing we’d signed Burks to a 3 year deal instead.

Oh, I wanted that right away. I imagine he specifically wanted the one year deal to build his value, though.

Bo Nateman: He worked with Keith Smart this summer.

rotflmao

7 for 7 from RJ!

Great finish from Barrett there. He’s a wow so far. Unreal game. Feeling like I might be wrong about this one. And I like it.

TJ Warren looks like he needs some practice.

RJ looking like he learned how to shoot around the rim and I’m beaming

Randle having some trouble finishing shots he should be making.

Everyone of you who doubted RJ Barrett owe the #BarrettBros a 1,000 word essay on why you were wrong. And we need 2,000 words from those of you who think Brandon Clarke is a better basketball player.

thank god we didn’t get stuck with zion

barrett is unconscious

I guess RJ Barrett is not going to have a sophomore slump. lol

toppin… nice dee

Pretty entertaining first half!

I am prepared to eat a lot of crow if RJ never misses a shot again.

Seriously though, holy fucking shit. That was the best half of basketball I can remember a Knick playing.

66 points?
RJ 8 for 8 with 20? Do we have a star?
Toppin waking up.
I’ve been laid up for a week with a bad back. I hope IQ doesn’t have what I have.
Randle is playing unselfishly? 8 assists?

that was an unbelievably ridiculous half from rj….

mind you… last year he had a really good debut against the spurs and a pretty decent first 5 games so don’t get carried away but if his shooting at the line is real then it’s going to carry over in other ways and we might be seeing the fruits of that….

YOUNG PLAYERS NEVER GET BETTER except with hard work and a good development staff!

#ImLovingMeSomeRJBarrett

Other than Elfrid Payton, this is one of the most unexpected halves of basketball i think I’ve ever seen.

Hope Quickley’s hip thing is not a thing.

Barrett reads KB and wants me to eat crow, which I will if he plays like this for even a full month of the season

I have rarely wanted to witness someone eating crow as badly as I want here, Jowles. He’s not gonna go 8-for-8 in many halves, but my gosh, he looks great.

It’s weird that they’re calling RJ a guard. He’s clearly been the 3 tonight.

I found myself smiling during long portions of this half. I can’t remember the last time that happened. Damn! Three couch pounds already!

What a huge difference not signing 4 power forwards to play for a clueless coach. Just wow.

How about Burks?!

The way Randle is playing so far this year he may have a few triple doubles this season. Unfortunately, the way he turns the ball over he may have a couple of quadruple doubles too. 🙂

I really don’t get why some good team didn’t try to sign Burks.

Except for Mitch’s fouls and Quickley’s hip, loved this 1st half. Now off to bed, as here it’s 1AM. Enjoy the 2nd half, folks. 😉

Still, 8 for 15 vs. 4 for 19. That’s clearly the story of the game right there.

Even more so that the outstanding gams by Burks and RJ.

And the Pacers missing five out 16 free throws is an issue, too.

Yeah, Burks was incredible too. But RJ is the story because he was so godawful last year.

I mean, we did got 8-15 from 3 and 10-11 from the line and we are only up 5. But that was a great half. And Sabonis clearly pays the refs.

I adore the disclaimer in the FanDuel-sponsored Knick segments. “Gambling problem? Call this number.” Yes, I’m sure you’re verrrrry concerned about gambling problems.

I expect he Pacers to foul RJ hard in the second half if he gets good looks.

They’re going to want him to prove it on the FT line.

Tempering enthusiasm for what happened five seconds ago? On my internet?

Man, I just looked at Jared Harper’s portrait on NBA.com

He looks just like Marlo from The Wire!

Damn, looks like no more Quicksanity tonight.

PAYTON 3!!!!!!!

I looked up “hip pointer” and the prognosis is missing 1-3 weeks? Fuck.

Credit where it’s due: Randle has been a pretty damn good version of himself tonight

Hip pointer for Quickley. Not going to return. Ugh. Annoying.

Still perfect from the field for Barrett!!!

TJ Warren should probably have been benched tonight.

Ok, what did Thibs do to RJ? Keep doing exactly that please. 9/9 from the field now

Again, why put mitch on Sabonis?

Amazing D by Mitch on Sabonis.

This is the most invisible Mitch has ever looked in a game. Good defense there on Sabonis though they could have called a foul.

Man, Toppin has a LOT of arc on his shot

And Elf looks terrible

This is the most invisible Mitch has ever looked in a game. Good defense there on Sabonis though they could have called a foul.

Part of it is no pick and roll and a lot of it is smart Pacers offense to mostly stay away from him.

DRed:
How did IQ hurt his hip?

Banged into Myles Turner

Payton looks like shit

payton is shit

It’s really hard to play point guard if you can’t shoot and you can’t consistently get to the hole…

this version of obi shooting 3s and throwing floaters up isn’t gonna last too long in the nba…

Right? He’s like an end of the bench player right now. It’s not encouraging.

I think STAT is the answer to the trivia question. I was at that game.

I’d rather have Ntilikina in the game than to watch Payton take another shot

It’s early etc. but I was totally wrong about Toppin’s role. I figured he’d be something of a go to guy. Instead he’s playing like Novak with a mediocre 3PT shot. Not ideal.

djphan:
this version of obi shooting 3s and throwing floaters up isn’t gonna last too long in the nba…

He’s not going to overpower NBA players like he did 19 years olds (at least not right away) and NBA defenses are going to take away most of the leak outs. He has to add to his game or he’s kind of a waste of a pick without a 3 pointer.

I’ve been saying this kind of stuff all along.

Toppin’s post up game was embarrassing as fuck.

People now wondering if Quickley made a real difference or what?

Payton is now being backed up by Alec Burks if people want to get mad about him playing

So much for perfect RJ… Oh well.

Meanwhile, it speaks really poorly of Thibs’ feelings about Frank and Smith that he basically brought Burks in as the point guard (or perhaps returned to Fizdale’s Point RJ experiment) when Elf came out.

Payton destroys every semblance of a decent offense.
Watch his defender sagging 8 feet from him and playing safety on the passing lanes,
with him on the floor we’re always attacking 4 vs 5…

Thibs gave Payton the starting PG gig.

Never forget.

Great pass by Obi, but he was also being easily guarded by Justin Holiday. The Pacers can’t buy a three.

Toppin’s interior passing is promising

Jesus, Toppin’s drive game looks weak.

Pacers bricking threes and free throws.

Obi looks intimidated, but not hopeless. He’s played some good D, has had a nose for the ball, made a few good passes – he just isn’t ready for the level of competition. But I don’t think it’s beyond his ability.

McDermott with another dunk!

Did not know Doug Mcdermott could dunk, let alone like that

rj…reversion

What a bullshit quarter.

As much as I can’t stand him, the Knicks are really missing Julius Randle.

They miss Quickley too, but not having Julius Randle to brute force his way through a defender is really hurting right now.

Thibs better tweak that rotation. If Burks is his 3rd PG then something’s wrong.

It’s amazing how different the team looks when Quickley is in the game. Turner is having a monster defensive game. This Pacer team is a good defensive team.

IQ getting hurt threw rotations out of whack… super disorganized offense in the third q

he just isn’t ready for the level of competition

The problem with this is he’s almost 23

Brian Cronin: They offered McDermott and Turner for Hayward, but Ainge wanted either Warren or Oladipo instead of McDermott, like a dick.

What a moron. I think Stevens has made him look better than he really is as GM.

Thibs needs to roll the dice and get DSJ in there at PG. And I’m not a DSJ fan.

Edit…looks like Frank gets the call.

I like the idea of giving Frank burn, let’s see what he does

Frank is in. Excited to watch him D up.

At least Obi has made three threes.

Obi’s rainbows are beyond Dirk level.

Why would any Pacer soot a three at this point?

Toppin’s shot is so bad he’s making shots off the glass.

I mean one of Toppin’s three was a bank shot that bounced off a rafter but yes, good he hit it.

they need to do the thing they did to tony parker to obi… 5k penalty for every 3 he shoots…

Beautiful finish by Knox

Frank still playing the same way he did as a rookie … giving up his dribble, passing and running to the corner, no attempt to even intiate a threat of any kind

That was some Indiana Hoosier shit from McDermott there.

Good finish from Knox. Doesn’t normally convert those.

What the fuck, Noel?

The way the foul shots and 3s have gone reminds me of the days teams would tighten up the rim on one side.

Glad Turner isn’t injured. Hell of a block from Noel actually.

Turns out I don’t miss those McDermott back cuts.

Immanuel Quickley actually won the starting job by getting injured.

I will probably be accused of Not Being Able to See the Greatness but not loving the year 4 Frank Ntilikina experience so far

Not a horrible performance, some things to build on. I wish IQ was available.

This half is much less fun so far. I just wanna see some more from RJ before the end, even if we lose as predicted.

The games rotated on himself with the Quickley injury.
Knicks’ offense is so different with him playing,
with Payton (horrible), Frank (bad, but it’s not his fault if Noel miss a bunny from 2 feet) and Burks (poor guy) everything reversed to last year…

As pointless as Frank looked, he wasn’t worse than Payton

The defense has been pretty terrible tonight considering the Pacers missed approximately 87 uncontested trees.

Can’t have a much worse game than Payton did tonight

Wow, this team fell apart. It all avalanched.

Thank you for fact checking me Z-Man. i just mean it’s a good go to for him.

Some interesting scores around the NBA.

Z-man:
Oladipo looks great

Destination Dallas

Deeefense: Destination Dallas

With what trade capital?

Sabonis having a career night and making it look easy.

Pacers are a good team.

Even worse, the Celts are beating the Bucks

Mitch in concussion protocol? I haven’t heard any injury updates from the broadcast.

Can we trade Knox for McDermott?

it’s the (total lack of) hope that kills ya.

I can’t believe Thom Thibodeaux isn’t starting a guy who didn’t play point guard in college on the basis of two preseason games against maybe the worst defense in the NBA

DRed:
I can’t believe Thom Thibodeaux isn’t starting a guy who didn’t play point guard in college on the basis of two preseason games against maybe the worst defense in the NBA

The great Elfrid Payton has to get his minutes in despite being a horrendous fit for the of type of offense he runs.

Mitch in concussion protocol? I haven’t heard any injury updates from the broadcast.

That makes some sense, actually. He did take a big smack.

It’s the first fucking game of the season. If IQ is good it’ll show and then they’ll play him more.

dred about to get the fury of kb in 3…2…..

DRed:
It’s the first fucking game of the season.If IQ is goodit’ll show and then they’ll play him more.

it already does. There are only two players who were in plus +/- for the game. One was Burks, who had a monster efficient game. Guess who was the other one.

I truly can’t think of a more Harden-friendly starting four than Brogdon, McDermott, Warren, and Turner..

I mean, there’s nothing in this game that we didn’t expect. If RJ is good, nothing else matters.

I still think we have a team but now I’m sure is a bad one 🙂

Bad habits looms just under the surface, Thibs and the staff need time to work.
The first half was too good and the second looks like shit.
A competent PG makes all the difference, but I think there are some positive signs to take home from this game (first half ball movement and defensive effort).
Payton is borderline unplayable, hope IQ’s injury is not serious.

P.S. Dear Clyde, this is not “down the stretch”, this is straight garbage time.

I’ve been a Frank guy for a long time. But if anyone was going to get something out of him it would be Thibs. Frank, DSJ, Knox are not really NBA players. I’d give it a couple months and move on and try new blood off the scrap heap.

Btw Thibs did not overplay the vets. Especially starting Mitch.

RJ was a huge positive. Randall, Burks play like this they are great trade bait.

I don’t think there was too much to be learned by this game other than RJ further demonstrating that he has taken a solid step forward. He’ll be even better of we ever get consistent space and PG play.

We already we knew we had a problem at PG unless Quickley becomes the guy, but he got hurt. So be it. He’ll be back.

Randle has added a new dimension to his game as a better passer, but because we suck he’s still being asked to do too much on offense and that results in some bad shots and TOs. His decision making is still a problem when asked to do too much.

Robinson is Robinson. He can dunk and block shots, but he can’t do much else and on some nights good teams will get him in foul trouble early and/or pretty much neutralize him and take advantage of him.

Toppin has some limitations at the NBA level at his point. His shot arc is crazy. I’m not particularly happy with what I’ve seen so far.

Knox looks a little better, but starting from such a low level he’s not a player yet.

It’s pointless to have Frank bring up the ball, run to the corner, and stand there. That’s not going to work with the players we have. Just trade the poor guy already. He belongs in Dallas where there’s already plenty of scoring and space and they need help on defense at the guard position because Doncic can’t guard anyone, especially not fast PGs. They must have a 2nd rounder they can send to us. Maybe he can have a role off the bench there.

I mean, Sabonis and Turner is about the worst matchup Mitch will have this year. And if he gets a block rather than a foul against Sabonis in the first quarter his whole line would look a lot different. He got into the game in the second half and looked himself. But whatever. It’s one game.

Giannis can really do some shit out there. That handle on a 7 footer is something.

Wally sounds like the Knicks won

Giannis just went off on the Celtics. It felt really good.

DRed: The guy who didn’t play the half where the team got outscored by 20?We’re really doing single game plus minus for a guy who played 12 minutes?

He was also in the positive for the first half with the rest of the backups he played with. I checked halftime. The starters were in the negative. Just keep adding it to the tally of how much better the team performs with him in the lineup vs. with him out of it.

LOL @ half the Rockets team violating COVID protocols or waiting for test results causing a delayed game.

Giannis came to play in the second half. Great game.

Defense might be an issue for the Bulls this season, Hawks shooting 68%

Ntilakilla:
LOL I feel like I am taking crazy pills here with people bring up individual volume stats to quantify game impact.

Does no one see the superior spacing and ball movement when one PG is in the lineup vs. everyone else?

The ball stagnated the entire second half.

If you’re going to quote 12 minutes of +/- on this website, then you’re going to get ignored.

Brian Cronin:
I agree with the more general point, though, that the PG play is so bad that Quickley’s presence is big just by not being terrible and being able to hit from outside. Really basic stuff, but basic stuff the Knicks don’t have.

+1

Why doesn’t divincenzo pull that one back out?

I’m really depressed. The future is so bleak.

I had the same thought re Devincenzo but Teague pulled off some crazy shit with that strip.

Holy shit Tatum. Goddammit

lol Tatum

Webber: “Taking their time and getting the best shot available”

He is so bad.

rj was a revelation today… he had some strong takes to the hoop and the 3s were finally falling…. he struggled some against indiana last year vs turner in particular and he did challenge him better and also just avoiding him most of the time… really promising stuff…. important to be mindful that he started off hot the first 5 games last year as his 2p% was over 50% and it looked like it would stay that way… then he fell into some bad habits…. so just having this consistent approach is going to be the biggest key for him….

obi is concerning…. the reason taking too many 3s is worrisome is because the bulk of a frontcourt player’s offense should be coming from inside…. he’s supposed to be athletic. and dominant inside…. that’s why he was a lotto pick…. not because he’s shooting half of his shots from 3… that’s kelly olynk or bobby portis and while they have their uses… we didn’t draft obi #8 with those kinds of players in mind…

Giannis has to become a better free throw shooter.

Yeah, Chris Webber sucks.

That was a tough call by the refs against the Celts but sadly ball don’t lie

Giannis missing 1 there could be seen from a mile away

How is there no late national game? it’s the first real night of the season

Mavs/Suns at 10:30 on ESPN

Pop is such a brilliant coach. Even when you might want to tank, he comes up with a lineup with DeMar DeRozan starting at power forward and Lonnie Walker at small forward against a playoff team and wins. Wow, he’s so good.

obi is concerning…. the reason taking too many 3s is worrisome is because the bulk of a frontcourt player’s offense should be coming from inside…. he’s supposed to be athletic. and dominant inside…. that’s why he was a lotto pick…. not because he’s shooting half of his shots from 3… that’s kelly olynk or bobby portis and while they have their uses… we didn’t draft obi #8 with those kinds of players in mind…

Yeah, instead, he had trouble posting up Justin freakin’ Holiday. There was an earlier post up where he was dribbling for, like, 14 seconds where it was just blatant that he had no chance in the world of scoring (and he didn’t).

If R.J Barrett develops into a star I couldn’t care less about anything else as most of the players on the court tonight, barring Mitch and Toppin hopefully, won’t be a part of the next good Knicks team anyway. That’s my philosophy for watching this entire season, so this was a positive game overall. I won’t get into the endless PG discussion because it is what it is, Quickley has shown basic competence which should earn him minutes, which he got until the injury, Payton has a history of basic competence so he gets minutes too, everyone else is irrelevant. Burks might be the Marcus Morris of this season, Randle looked better than usual and everything else was pretty much expected.

Brian Cronin:
Pop is such a brilliant coach. Even when you might want to tank, he comes up with a lineup with DeMar DeRozan starting at power forward and Lonnie Walker at small forward against a playoff team and wins. Wow, he’s so good.

He’s a legend. Every year I fear it could be his last and try to watch the Spurs as much as I can just for him.

Rozier and Hayward combined for 70 and the Hornets still lose to Cleveland as Lamelo went 0-fer (but his passes are oh so beautiful).
We’re in good company in the Tank Run.

Recap (abridged):
RJ: A-
Randle: B
Mitch: D
Payton: D
Bullock: C
Burks: A
Knox: C-
IQ: Inc
Noel: D
Obi: C-
Frank: F
Thibs: B-

There are guys who’ve done 5 to 10 for throwing games who played better than Elfrid Payton did tonight. He should be shot to the sun tomorrow.

Knox: C-

I hope that stood for “we should see less of him.”

Z-man:
Recap (abridged):
RJ: A-
Randle: B
Mitch: D
Payton: D
Bullock: C
Burks: A
Knox: C-
IQ: Inc
Noel: D
Obi: C-
Frank: F
Thibs: B-

RJ: A
Randle: C
Mitch: D
Payton: F
Bullock: C-
Burks: A-
Knox: D
IQ: C
Noel: E
Obi: D
Frank: D
Thibs: C

Brian Cronin: I hope that stood for “we should see less of him.”

Lol

Mitch and Noel were both Fs. Sabonis utterly destroyed them. Really disappointing.

Embiid will shoot 40 free throws on Saturday and Iggy will finish the game at center.

halliburton looks good…oh what coulda been…

Obi should start lifting some weights, get stronger and attack the rim fearlessly.

Our Centers are cool, sexy and spectacular but not so smart.
Protecting the rim while avoiding fouls ain’t that hard.
Nobody asked them to dribble or shoot 3s.
Just protect the fkn paint wo fouling…

1st half showed that We Can.
2nd half showed that if we relax against a good team it’s over.
We need Top D against good teams otherwise we’re going to become garbage time collectors.

#The guy who didn’t play the half where the team got outscored by 20? We’re really doing single game plus minus for a guy who played 12 minutes?#

How about also thinking that if that guy had played in that half the team probably wouldn’t have been outscored by 20?

It’s gonna be a fun season. On KB at least. So much to argue about.

A search for Mudiay on nba.com comes up empty.

i didn’t see the game, but the descriptions of Obi’s high arc makes me think how horrible it must be to scrimmage every day against either Mitch or Noel. I know I’d be taking moon shots…

I know people are upset about Payton starting over IQ, but IQ played 12 of the 21 minutes in the game before getting injured. He was in line for some big minutes tonight.

Thibs knows what he’s doing and will give IQ the chance to prove himself, or at least show the minimal competence necessary to win the PG spot. For now I don’t mind bringing him off the bench.

Is it more painful than the lap dance Mark Jackson is giving Devin Booker on national television?

Or how bad Luka is playing?

It might be. Its actually what I came to post about. Also, I bet Jalen Smith will turn out better than Obi.

any word on the IQ injury?

it looked like some kind of “hip-pointer” thing…

Crazy ending to the Nuggets Kings game in OT

There were like four amazing plays. Porter had an insane three point block.

Then Fox had a crazy black and Barnes took the rebound coast to coast.

Then Barnes stripped (fouled) Jokic on the inbound and then Fox tipped in the rebound of Barnes miss off the ensuing scramble as time expired. (Barnes was hammered but they didn’t call it either.)

Worth watching those highlights

Thibs saying he may play Burks more at point says worlds about what he thinks of Frank and DSJ. Probably Payton too.

Have the Timberwolves ever had a good team uniform?

Goddamn, man, they need to get that dude some fucking help. How is your star player talking about how he just pretends to get by day to day and you’re just, like, “Okay, cool, good luck with that. Just don’t miss practice, K?”

I feel for KAT.

I just got out of quarantine. My whole family has had it and despite my parents being a billion years old they made it through ok. That was an agonizing sweat of course and then you imagine seven people in your family dying including your mother.

Just insane

djphan:
not exactly a high bar but after an iffy preseason … anthony edwards looks like the #1 pick… although that’s more graded on a curve since almost every rookie looks terrible right now….

i watched that sacto game tonight and halliburton looked pretty good to me…

i haven’t checked it out yet but i’m sure he was solid… and will wind up haunting us for years…

but it was nice seeing edwards do well considering ppl thought he was dogshit in preseason….

Owen:
I feel for KAT.

I just got out of quarantine. My whole family has hadit and despite my parents being a billion years old they made it through ok. That was an agonizing sweat of course and then you imagine seven people in your family dying including your mother.

Just insane

His mother lived down the street from me. Out here in Central Jersey we were in the middle of the some of worst of Covid pandemic in the late Spring due to our proximity to NY and density of the state. It was real sad to hear about his parents, but fortunately his dad pulled through.

Obi quote from Vorkunov’s gamer:

“I just felt like I was trying to find a flow of the game and those were the spots I found,” Toppin said. “I think I had a couple of inside shots but I rushed it a lot. I’m still learning. This is my first real season game and I have a lot to learn. I’m going to take my time and allow everybody to give me feedback on the team and just learn from it.”

Definitely seems as if our 22-year-old college player of the year rookie is a much less finished product than several younger guys we could have taken at that spot. His upside had better be worth it, and achievable, because man would somebody like Hali or Vassell look really useful on this squad.

well that second half was much less surprising than the first.
I am not at all shocked that an Elfrid Payton-led team got crushed. In today’s NBA you just cannot have a non-Ben Simmons / non-Giannis primary ball handler that can’t shoot at all – it just decapitates your offense.

I really do not like the idea of Burks playing PG – those were some of the ugliest minutes in the second half. I thought Frank was fine although he really seemed like he was playing tentatively. He did draw a shooting foul on a drive and did make a nice baseline drive with a dish to Mitch which ended up in a shooting foul.

They should shoot DSJ and Payton into the sun and let Jared Harper play. Harper would’ve been abused by Brogdon, but Payton was beyond awful (and has no ceiling even when he is playing “well”).

Re: hip pointers – hard to find any data on that but FWIW Devon Dotson had one in January and played 39 minutes in a game 1 week later.

A quick note on Barrett.

The one year the Knicks actually actively tanked, they got to draft RJ Barrett.

Sooo…yeah, the Knicks really didn’t know what the fuck they were doing for so many years.

First half was much better than expected against a good Pacers team. As much as I liked IQ’s play (a lot), crediting him with RJ’s perfect play, Randall’s 8 assists, and everyone hitting their 3s seems silly. That was unlikely to continue regardless of who was at point.

Am I wrong to think that Mitch and Noel’s festival of fouls can be trained out of them?

Mitch had a couple BS calls against him, and Sabonis is just a really tough matchup for a foul-happy center anyway…

And re: 1st half v 2nd half — there was bound to be some regression in terms of us hitting 3s and RJ hitting everything, but there’s just no question the offense runs better with IQ. He just has to be guarded everywhere, which opens the entire floor up. Payton was outlier-ish bad yesterday, which I assume won’t continue to the same extent, but he’s just not a good player. He’s on a 1 year $5M contract – there is just no reason to play him except whatever obsession Scott Perry has with him.

DRed:
Trae Young scored 37 on 12 shots in 25 minutes so far.

If he learns to defend just adequately (a long path based on last year) people are going to stop laughing at Atlanta for passing on Doncic to get him (and I think eventually Cam Reddish). He’s the WAY better outside shooter, also a very good playmaker, and not such a bad rebounder for an actual PG that theoretically could stay with fast PGs. Doncic is a point forward that will never be able to cover them. Reddish got steadily better last year and may turn out to be a legitimately very good starter. He earned the starting spot yesterday and played well. He’s only 20.

If he learns to defend just adequately (a long path based on last year) people are going to stop laughing at Atlanta for passing on Doncic to get him (and I think eventually Cam Reddish).

In other words, people are never going to stop laughing at Atlanta passing on Doncic to get him and Reddish.

Obviously no firm declarations can be made yet, but the Obi situation is looking like a five-alarm fire if we’re being honest. I didn’t like the pick, but even I thought he’d be one of the more productive rookies by virtue of his age and the nature of his game.

Instead he’s been less productive than players 2-3 years his junior, and outside of the odd nifty pass here and there he doesn’t seem to be confident in his ability to do anything but chuck ugly looking threes.

Perhaps this isn’t wholly unrelated to the lack of PNR discussion–it would assuage some of my fears to see him convert a few simple PNR looks because right now he looks completely lost.

This must be a very satisfying fantasy. lol.

Top 5 in minutes played in 2016-2017: Carmelo Anthony, Courtney Lee, Kristaps Porzingis, Derrick Rose, Justin Holiday

Top 5 in minutes played in 2017-2018: Courtney Lee, THJ, Enes Kanter, Frank Ntilikina, Michael Beasley

There is literally nothing about these seasons that is compatible with asset accumulation, especially considering we never got the First Round Pick for Courtney Lee That We Could Get Whenever We Want.

Phil Jackson was desperate to snag an 8th seed because he thought that would vindicate the triangle or something, and Mills was a) similarly stupid and b) stuck with Phil’s roster dreck.

We “tanked” one time, and it got us RJ Barrett.

I’d say even if more of Obi’s threes were going in and his numbers thus artificially looked good, his shot distribution would still be a major cause for concern.

The guy is never going to be Davis Bertans. There’s no world in which his value on offense comes primarily from shooting threes. If he’s going to make an impact offensively, it’ll be from around the basket.

Of course it goes without saying a viable 3PT shot will both help him with this and make him more productive in general, but right now it feels like he’s just defaulting to shooting threes because he’s terrified to do what got him to the dance.

I figured he’d immediately be an offensive presence inside and the real test would be how well he could supplement that necessary but insufficient skill. If we can’t even take that as a given…yikes.

Obi is 22, but he is very young in terms of basketball played — played against basically no competition at all in high school and mostly as a guard from what I can tell, didn’t play much his freshman year at Dayton, and then of course against A-10 competition his sophomore year.

If this was meant to be calming, it sort of had the opposite effect for me. 😉

“Had terrible competition in high school, wasn’t academically eligible as a college freshman, wasn’t good enough to play much as a redshirt freshman, then he beat up on much younger players in a relatively weak conference as a redshirt sophomore, so it should all work out for him now in the NBA.”

Querly Q-Word, Pen Name of Pen Name Early Bird: Raw /- is a useless statistic. It has no meaning or correlation with being a good player at any sample size.

Wut? This is funny. Me using /- differentials to illustrate why IQ absolutely deserves to be starting PG will get me frozen out of here but multiple people dismissing IQs impact with even more flawed volume statistical logic like this I was responding to won’t?

One assist in 12 minutes! He’s clearly the future.

This isn’t serious. No way.

Shit, use any raw metric you want (WS/48, On/Off Court, ORtg, etc) for the small sample size of minutes he played, and you’ll see the same confirmation of my underlying point: IQ definitely had a positive impact on the game compared to the point guards that replaced him.

You’re tripping. The rest is nonsense I’m not going to belabor for days like others here.

Obi is different from Kaminsky in that Kaminsky just isn’t a good enough athlete to play in the NBA. At least Obi has that going for him.

I think he will be fine. Might take a while for the coaching staff to figure out how to best use him, and for him to figure out how to best pick his spots. And the game will slow down for him. He just seems rushed and tentative at the same time if that’s possible.

Deeefense: Doncic is going to need a Beverley type player on the court with him because no way he’ll ever be able to defend fast PGs. He’s a forward.

This is why I think if Frank washes anywhere it will be Dallas. He was made to play with a high usage/ball-handling/no defense playing floormate like Luka.

Once Melo got hurt and it was apparent the team was full of mal-contents, players we didn’t want, and players that were washed up, the entire team was stripped down (JR and Shump were traded, Amare released, Dalembert released, Melo put on ice to recover), and we tanked the rest of the way trying for Towns. We were in position to get him until the last game or so and then dropped one position in the lottery,

Wow, Jackson decided to “tank” after the team he specifically noted he thought could compete for the #8 seed was 5-35! That was a bold plan. The idea of you acting like Jackson should get credit for that is ill-considered.

Say what you want about injuries and max contracts, but RJ, KP, and Mitch would be a pretty nice combo. Oh well.

I don’t disagree, but I don’t believe that Kevin Durant wasn’t coming here before the injury (KD’s BS stories about his plans are hilariously contradictory), so imagine RJ, Durant, Kemba Walker and Mitch. That’d be even better.

Say what you want about injuries and max contracts, but RJ, KP, and Mitch would be a pretty nice combo. Oh well.

I definitely would not be happy with that combo solely due to KP’s contract and injury history. That’s why a number of posters here would have been cool with KP leaving for nothing in FA if that’s what it came down to.

What is clear to me is that the Knicks need another capable point guard, someone to push Payton into the seat now occupied by Dennis Smith Jr., who needs to go. That extra point guard, and I don’t care if it’s a starter or the first guard off the bench, needs to be able to run an offense. Sadly, I’ve looked around the league and don’t see one we could trade for. Halliburton. Oh, how I wish we had Halliburton.

thenoblefacehumper:
Seriously what are we even arguing about?

I dunno what anyone else is arguing about. But these are the nonsense statements I take issue with.

I can’t believe Thom Thibodeaux isn’t starting a guy who didn’t play point guard in college on the basis of two preseason games against maybe the worst defense in the NBA

The guy who didn’t play the half where the team got outscored by 20? We’re really doing single game plus minus for a guy who played 12 minutes?

One assist in 12 minutes! He’s clearly the future.

I know there are people who will rush to wipe Thibs’ ass in the general Knicks fandom right now in the honeymoon period. But its clear he’s fucking up every extra minute he leaves Elfrid Payton in a starting lineup with RJ Barrett. I don’t see the point of it beyond satisfying a guy on a one year contract who will be gone in a season’s time.

But what about Toppin last night looked like he was such a good athlete? He couldn’t post up Justin Holiday!

I’m not even saying he won’t be a good athlete, but nothing I saw last night seemed like he was an NBA-level power forward (or center) from an athletic standpoint. His only visible skills were passing and shooting.

+1. This is what’s worrying me most about Obi is that he doesn’t pop from an athletic perspective at all. It’s true that we’ve seen in preseason that if you give him a straight line to the hoop he can dunk the ball from the top of the square. That’s cool stuff but it’s pretty different than applied NBA athleticism. Have we seen him get one dunk that wasn’t uncontested yet in all his games? He just can’t get to the rim at all when he’s defended even slightly right now and absent that talking about his “athleticism” is basically just talking about the cool dunks he can do in an empty gym.

RJ produced more Win Shares in his one game last night than he did in all of the 56 he played his rookie season.

I’m confused we are not supposed to be up about IQ bc of “small sample size” “one game, 12 minutes” yadayada but we are supposed to be concerned about our other rookie Toppin?

But what about Toppin last night looked like he was such a good athlete? He couldn’t post up Justin Holiday!

His defense, actually. Not that it was good – the game is too fast for him at the moment – but there were a variety of plays where he made very athletic moves to get a deflection, recover from a mistake, or block a shot. He is definitely quick.

I’m not saying he played well in any way. He was intimidated and tentative, as I said during the game. But I am not freaked out by that, since despite his age he is still a rookie, and what matters isn’t where he is now (with no summer league, no real training camp, and not even the second half of his college season). What matters is how he learns as the year goes on. Just as people need to slow down the Quickly train (though I think there’s an NBA player there at minimum, and probably a good one, and possibly a quality starter), they also need to slow down the “I’m worried he’s a bust” train. He wouldn’t have been my pick, but Jesus, give him maybe 30 games before coming to any conclusions?

Quickley came in relatively early, played 12 straight minutes, and probably would have finished out the first half if he hadn’t crashed into Turner. I think Thibs knows he’s a more promising option than Elf right now. As he said pregame, starters matter much less to him than overall minutes distribution and who finishes the game.

If Quickley is better than Payton he’ll probably snag the job before too long. Insisting on him getting it before he does that seems like a fight you pick when there isn’t anything more interesting to discuss, which, yeah, fair.

I’m just ornery after last night’s win, especially considering the way we lost it and the fact there are people still here playing the “only a few preseason games” card for why we have to qualify what we’re seeing with the team when IQ is in the game.

Brian Cronin: Wow, Jackson decided to “tank” after the team he specifically noted he thought could compete for the #8 seed was 5-35! That was a bold plan. The idea of you acting like Jackson should get credit for that is ill-considered.

I’m not giving him credit. I’m stating reality.

The reality is he inherited a catastrophe of mal contents that no one wanted (Felton, JR Smith and an emerging problem with Shump/JR ), players that wanted out (Chandler), no 1st round picks for 2 out of the first 3 years, some washed up players (like Amare and Bargs), and Melo.

He went into the season hoping to compete, but he was wrong. Some guys were washed, others were idiots, and Melo was hurt (he was only playing because he wanted to play in the all star game moron that he is).

So Phil did the obvious and right thing. He got rid of everyone that could contribute any wins that he didn’t want long term anyway so we could get Towns.

Is it so hard to say “we tanked” because you hate Phil so much or because of how much you love tanking and admitting that Phil tanked for KP sets our tank starting date back?

We’d be in great shape if we still had KP or got a good player for him (if Mills/Perry were afraid of the injury risk). He’s the exact player we need. We need a stretch PF creating space that can also play C if Mitch gets into foul trouble or to team with a guy like Randle at times. If it wasn’t him we certainly could have done better than DSjr. They screwed the rebuild up chasing fantasies. But the tanking rebuild started with KP.

i still can’t believe that ppl want to talk about quickley’s 12 minutes over rj’s game ….

this is really like frank all over again…..

But we get half a win for leading after the first half, right?

Obi looks like Frankenstein’s monster out there, like his upper and lower bodies don’t match up. The hope is that he will work really hard to adapt and improve, but the way he moves is unsettling. He has good court vision, which is hard to teach. He puts a ton of arc on the ball…also good if it goes in. But he has a lot of skill/footwork work to do if he is going to come anywhere near justifying a lottery pick.

I’m not going to get too excited about anything any of the rookies do until they’ve been scouted and the league starts game-planning for them i.e. taking away their strengths. But the reasons why virtually nobody here would have picked Obi over the next 5-6 guys picked are pretty much in evidence right now.

djphan:
i still can’t believe that ppl want to talk about quickley’s 12 minutes over rj’s game ….

this is really like frank all over again…..

Because he’s actually easier to replace on the team right now with the preexisting roster than Quickley is. And it’s not because IQ is the better player, BTW, but because our remaining rotation of PGs are so booty. Like its a night and day difference between Payton/Frank/DSJ/Burks at the #1 and even someone who is just serviceable there.

But, yes, let’s talk about RJ. Dude is so smooth. I don’t want to jinx it because the irrational reptilian part of my brain steeped in a superstitious Catholic upbringing tells me that in celebrating his apparent arrival God will curse our hubris with a wrath Torahaic in its proportions.

Re: RJ, the 3-pt stroke looks better, no doubt about it. He looked like a #3 pick last night, which is all you can ask for at this point.

The research I did says 1-3 weeks. Maybe icing it right away helped to get it down to 1. No rush, though, let Frank get some burn.

Considering we haven’t had a notable PG prospect in, like 100 years, I see no problem with discussing Quickley on any level. Folks here can multitask in case anyone hasn’t noticed.

The best thing for Quickley’s rep would be to miss the next two games, see the Knicks look terrible as they fall to 0-3 and then return for the Cleveland game and lead them a win. 🙂

Brian Cronin:
By the way, I knew that the Knicks had a tough opening schedule, but I didn’t realize just how tough. It’s hard searching for realistic wins in there. I’m sure there will be some upsets mixed in there, but dang.

yeah, hopefully it will pay off in some realistic reckoning about what it takes to win.

RJ’s jumper looked incredibly smooth. Just the motion looks so much better than last year that I actually want to believe in his shot. Keith Smart is the worst thing that could have happened to the Knicks last year and that’s saying a lot. We have a bunch of players who need to improve their shot and he set them all back at least a year. I’m ready to eat all the crow when it comes to RJ. At this point I’m pretty convinced that he’ll have an exceptional year.

Based on the few minutes he played w/o a PG, I’d say RJ still can’t create against a set defense. It’s not a huge concern to me since he’s more of a 2nd or 3rd star and young enough to keep working on that part of his game. Hopefully he proves me wrong here too.

IQ may honestly benefit from sitting our next 2 games against Ben Simmons and Jrue Holiday, arguably 2 of the best (or are they actually just the 2 best?) PG defenders in the league (maybe this part of why Thibs wants IQ off the bench to start the year, Brogdon, Simmons, Jrue is a hell of a welcome to the NBA?). I’d expect whoever we run out there the next 2 games will look bad pretty much no matter what.

Z-man: yeah, hopefully it will pay off in some realistic reckoning about what it takes to win.

In your formulaic sports movie scenario focused on a bunch of lovable loser type protagonists, this would be the period where the underdogs get their asses kicked by the main antagonists/best teams in the league before the midpoint where they begin to figure things out and ascend to unlikely winners.

Querly Q-Word, Pen Name of Pen Name Early Bird:
@Ntilakilla,

Sorry my issue is really more with/- than IQ himself. I like IQ. Also got a little carried away after a frustrating loss. Did not do agood job of expressing myself.

Same here. Friends? Let’s kiss and make up.

one of mitch’s second order problems is that he is destined to get a “bad whistle” because he is uniquely bad at idling and/or verticality. it’s both a feature and a bug. like strat with one hand on a tvinikie and the other at the claw machine of a pub in st. petersburg in 1937, he just can’t control his inner pokémon.

so on that first foul last night when sabonis kind of elbows him backward, he doesn’t provide the who-me silhouette of a tim duncan mannequin you need to get a fair share of those whistles, either rightly or wrongly. a similar thing happens with cases like the second call (clearly unfair) where his hands are coming down and splay like the flailing tarantula he is, as opposed to a straight and languid sculpture like gobert would be. he can definitely cut down on his truly stupid fouls like going for steals 30 ft out, but some portion of this probably won’t ever change.

Yeah, Doug McDermott was a one man Princeton offense. Not sure where the defense is going to come from.

I said it about 250 comments up but the Pacers are a really good complete team.

I sat my son down to watch the game last night, our first game ever together. We snuggled up on the sofa under a blanket and it was magical. I explained to him that I had loved watching the Knicks when I was a kid and that my father had watched them win a championship. I told him about Clyde and Willis and Patrick. Then I said we hadn’t been good for a while and it might be a while before we were good but that as a 6 year old he had a reasonable chance of them being good during his childhood.

Then I explained that the team we were playing, the Pacers, was very good and we were probably going to lose by a lot. He asked me what a Pacer was and I said it was a race car.

“Dad, I want to root for the Pacers.”

“But I root for the Knicks.”

“I know”

“They play in Indiana. You should root for the team in your hometown. All your friends will root for them too.”

“I don’t want to. I am going to be a Pacer fan.”

“Forever?”

“Forever Dad”

Smart kid

mitch just can’t seem to not bite on fakes. He has to learn to keep his feet on the ground and not care if someone scores over him so much.

Brian Cronin: What struck me was that Noel and Mitch weren’t actually bad at rim deterrence, but the Pacers were just doing a great job at avoiding them. Noel and Mitch were sort of like islands on defense out there. No support around them.

Yeah I agree. I’m not trying to put it all on those two – as I said they didn’t actually play all that much and we’ve got a bunch of other issues – bad defenders at the 4 and a lack of physicality on the wing that mean for sure too often the rim protection mandate falls entirely on those 2 when a good defense needs it to be a group effort. I just didn’t think either had a particularly good game and that’s kind of what we need from them if this is going to be a good defense given the other limitations. 3 blocks for Mitch and a couple other nice moments but I didn’t think his overall level of intimidation was quite what we’ve seen at his best, maybe thrown off the early foul trouble a bit.

Yeah, Doug McDermott was a one man Princeton offense. Not sure where the defense is going to come from.

Yeah, so many times there were these backdoor cuts where Mitch and Noel couldn’t do anything about it. That has to be their other guys. The other guys weren’t there at all. But credit to the Pacers for exploiting that. The Pacers’ offensive intelligence went up a lot since last year with this new coach. Why doesn’t everyone just steal from the Raptors coaching tree going forward?

he may improve on the margins, but the vast majority of guys don’t make major improvements from mitch’s extreme tendencies from watching film of very diffeeent athletes. roy hibbert is an example of a guy who got a lot of acclaim for learning verticality but he was a gazillion miles from mitch. hakeem was a guy who mitch’s incredible reflexes but also always, always had a strong element of seemingly intrinsic control. in 7 years noel has learned to make modestly fewer mistakes but is still a huge biter of fakes and is still well below average at taking charges and verticality. i suspect that if mitch managed to teach himself to not bite on fakes it might come at the expense of much of what he is good at, and he would look josh smith did when he just randomly started stopping in the paint like he was playing freeze tag.

i am definitely not saying he can’t improve on the margins or that the margins don’t matter. in fact last year i was hoping he’d do a better job grabbing some of the low hanging fruit than he did. but i think it would be almost as hard for mitch to watch tape of tom duncan and translate much of it to his game efficiently as it would for knox to watch tape of bernard king to learn body control on offense.

Mitch and Noel are a good tandem, but they need to be a trio because of the way that they play and NBA refs use their whistles. The rules make it tough for a center to defend the paint. Shrewd opponents will get them in foul trouble, like Sabonis did.

but multiple people dismissing IQs impact with even more flawed volume statistical logic like this I was responding to won’t?

His NBA career is 12 fucking minutes long. You can’t make any statistical arguments about it.

Mitch and Noel are a good tandem, but they need to be a trio because of the way that they play and NBA refs use their whistles. The rules make it tough for a center to defend the paint. Shrewd opponents will get them in foul trouble, like Sabonis did.

They have a pile of guards that Thibs will never play, so I guess they might as well add an emergency center. Kenny Wooten is available!

The way RJ is playing seems sustainable to me. He’s playing a smarter brand of ball, his shot seems improved and so does his finishing at the rim. He didn’t get to the line much last night but his FT shooting in the preseason is another sign that he really worked on his game during the offseason.

Which also confirms that he has strong intangibles. I’m liking his game a lot, he’s showing some good basketball IQ.

The Knox pick is always going to bother me more than the Frank pick, tbh. If we’d gone with sort of draft consensus in 2017 we would have probably drafted DSJ or maybe Monk, and they also suck.

Hohoho! Merry X-mas to you all!! 🙂

Yup. After the fact, there were some rumblings that Phil liked Mitchell, but preferred Frank as a guy to run the triangle, but at the time all the smoke was about Frank, DSJ, and Monk as the three candidates for our pick. Whereas either Bridges would have been a better version of the guy they thought Knox was, SGA was clearly the better prospect from the same damn team, and Porter was the more clear high upside play. Frank was a bad pick, but Knox was so, so much worse. There was no defending it that night, and there’s been no defending it since, not even on the nights where he looks like Novak 2.0.

See, I’m just considering this as Knox’s rookie season. He is actually younger than Quickley after all and this is the first season where he looks remotely physically ready to compete. His 2-5 with a couple of steals ain’t half bad for a rook just getting his feet wet! Go Kev!!

ptmilo: a similar thing happens with cases like the second call (clearly unfair) where his hands are coming down and splay like the flailing tarantula he is, as opposed to a straight and languid sculpture like gobert would be. he can definitely cut down on his truly stupid fouls like going for steals 30 ft out, but some portion of this probably won’t ever change.

lol and a guilty tarantula at that. That’s why the coach has to tell the refs f* you, he’s my star center and you’re letting me keep him in the game or I’m getting on your case like a drunk alligator.

Burks at point guard. Bloom coming off the Thibs rose pretty quickly for this fan.

Everyone remembers the old saying and it certainly applies to Frank. In basketball, as in life, Yahweh/Allah/Zeus/God/Jupiter/Whomever helps those who help themselves, and Frank never seems to help himself. That said, it’s kind of like he’s just always been … on probation.(*) I’d have liked to have seen him be developed as opposed to always being on probation, especially when people like Elfrid Payton are never on anything close to probation.

I pretty much always hate when coaches get and maintain their little tic obsessions, and Thibs’s little tic obsession seems to be that you need a “scorer” at PG, which probably comes from his earliest days as a head coach with MVP Rose. It isn’t true in the least, and it just shows stubbornness and it’s even more silly when you realize that Elfrid Payton … is not a scorer.

Toppin is one of those dudes that are too smart and perceptive for their own good and it makes them think when they should be just playing. The fact that he’s moved up a level is obviously in his conscious mind and that comes from being too smart and perceptive and he just needs to get it out of there. That can come with time. He needs to play like he gives zero or at most one fuck and he plays like he gives five.

With all that said, if RJ keeps developing toward 1/1A/high 2 quality (**), things could look up, although there’s always the very reasonable fear that Dolan’s Razor will lead to him wanting to leave like KP wanted to.

(*) Zach Lowe’s among the more dedicated and perceptive watchers of the association, and he said this today:

It’s not quite a make-or-break season for Frank Ntilikina, Kevin Knox II, and Mitchell Robinson, but we’re getting there. Ntilikina and Robinson should get closer to maximizing their massive potential on defense under one of the greatest defensive coaches ever. (Ntilikina is already really good. Play him, Thibs!)

(**) One of KB’s many charms is the manic depression routinely on display, which we see today in RJ being a walking, talking justification for tanking whereas a few short days ago, the Clarke Bars were saying he was a clear bust.

(*) Zach Lowe’s among the more dedicated and perceptive watchers of the association, and he said this today:

Zach went behind the ESPN paywall a few weeks ago, along with most of the ESPN writers I like, and while I pay for many other sports sites like The Athletic and Defector, ESPN at the moment hasn’t made that list. I’m curious where he ranked us on the League Pass ratings. Pretty low, I’m guessing.

If you pay for ESPN+ don’t you get access to the writers behind the paywall too? I have a yearly subscription to ESPN+ and I get access to all their insider content too, really is worth the price.

(And I say this fully aware that my employer put up a paywall this year, too. It’s hard out here for media companies.)

DRed: His NBA career is 12 fucking minutes long.You can’t make any statistical arguments about it.

Yes you can, which you did with that “1 assist” comment. Just because a sample is small doesn’t mean you can’t make an inference on the data in that sample. The question of whether you can infer anything beyond it is another question altogether. As of now we’re seeing how much better the team looks with iQ in the lineup vs. every other PG on our roster. That may change, but until then what we’re seeing is pretty clear.

Time of possession leaders for rebuilding Knicks:1. Elfrid Payton 4.7 minutes2. Julius Randle 4 minutes3. RJ Barrett 3.1 minutes Touches for rebuilding Knicks:1. Julius Randle 932. Elfrid Payton 513. Alec Burks 494. RJ Barrett 46 https://t.co/UP2ZUtZfOs— Bootum (@DaRealBootum) December 24, 2020

Z-man:
PS Indiana is very, very good. I wouldn’t want to play them in the first round.

The Pacers are actually my model for what a Knicks rebuild should look like. They are definitely good, but they didn’t get that way by attracting big name free agents or by having high lottery picks. Their highest lottery picks in the past 20 years were two number 11’s and a number 10. They did do well with those picks (Myles Turner, Paul George and Bayless) but that just supports my conclusion that they got good by making lots of smart decisions over time, not by one shot miracle transactions or draft picks.

siiiilennntt niiigghtt….

not the best article but the knicks blurb is interesting
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2921989-every-nba-teams-biggest-question-entering-the-new-season?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

coincidentally “all things must pass” just came up on my play list…

Christmas Spirit
Just 1Win away from 50% Record!

One good game and Alec Burks (who is a 29 year old backup scrub) should have been signed to a multi year deal.

4-5 minutes of play, 2 missed shots and 1 steal and Frank still sucks.

Knox probably does still suck, but he’s showing some flashes of improvement and is still a kid. Let’s give him 20-30 games.

The same people that said RJ was a terrible pick are suddenly finding some love after one very good game even though the kid showed plenty of talent and skill in college AND last year but played in the worst circumstances in human history for his skill set.

Robinson can literally do nothing on a basketball court except dunk and block shots and even there he can be neutralized by any really good team that bothers to try to stop him or get him off the court, but he’s a star. smh

Our problem is more than a lack of talent and the obvious problem at PG. It’s still team construction. We have players on this team that are better than they look, but they aren’t necessarily good with each other. Hopefully, Quickley helps a little there, but asking a rookie to be the savior is a bit much to ask. We should be hoping he shoots well when teams start focusing on him and can still run the point well enough to get Payton on the bench. That would be progress. Other than that, 1 game doesn’t mean much.

At least Zach Lowe understands basketball.