The Knicks Select Obi Toppin With the #8 Overall Pick

Here’s the summary of Vecenie’s scouting report on Toppin:

Ultimately, right now Toppin is a dominant offensive player where teams will have to figure out how much he’s going to give back on defense. His role is tailor made for the modern NBA on offense. He will score points and play well within a team construct as a mismatch problem at both the 4 and the 5. But where you fall on Toppin ultimately comes down to how much you think his defensive game can improve. He’s a mismatch problem for his team on both ends. College coaches who spoke with me think so much of it came down to the offensive role. That because he’s a good kid and good teammate, he’ll work harder on defense at the next level when held accountable. But the tape is the tape and it’s not particularly positive. And the ways in which its not positive create massive concerns for his NBA future. I’m such a fan of the offensive game’s translation that I have him rated this high in the hopes that a young player can figure out how to use his athleticism in a positive way to at least not be a disaster on defense. He’s one of the few guys in this class who have legitimate 20-point-per-game upside in the right situation, which means it’s worth taking a flier on it and hoping it’ll get figured out. But he’s potentially a role player, microwave offensive option if it doesn’t.

Like Brian said, it’s hard not to want to root for the kid after that interview. I’d have preferred Hali, Deni, or Vassell, but there are no perfect prospects in this draft and I look forward to seeing Thibs, Payne, and Bryant work with Obi.

Wow, Spurs didn’t take Haliburton. Thought that would be a sure thing.

Spurs gonna Spurs

Nice pick for the Spurs though I’m surprised they didn’t take Haliburton. If Haliburton gets past Sacramento New Orleans has to pick him. He’d fit in perfectly there.

Halliburton’s girlfriend is hot…

I’m not mad at it. I’m surprised that the reaction has been so negative all-around, but I didn’t watch him in college and was mostly sold on him from the Lowe Post podcast with Mike Schmitz and Jonathan Givony. He’s a beast offensively, obviously, and sounds like his bball IQ (and character) is high enough to at least maybe mitigate some of the defensive stuff and be a decent team . And honestly after a few years of drafting disappointing 18 and 19 year olds I don’t mind drafting someone who’s a little more developed.

d-mar:
So like 6 GMs think less of Hali than we do.

Speak for yourself.

if we somehow come away with Lewis, Nesmith or Dotson I’ll forgive the Toppin pick…

and for the record…toppin isn’t super terrible … he has a chance to be something unlike some of the other bad picks we have…. we probably could’ve done a lot better tho…

Halliburton and Foxy! Sign Buddy Hield up baby!

I really don’t think Obi is that bad of a pick at 8. But he doesn’t fit the mold of modern PFs and that worries me a lot. For this draft he’s fine but Haliburton was the love of this board and unexpectedly still available at 8. If he wasn’t there I’d feel different.

BigBlueAL:
One thing about Obi, to say he’s efficient is an understatement.He’s crazy efficient at a pretty significant usage.This is not a Kevin Knox situation.

It’s just really hard to project that efficiency to the next level when the tape looks like he really capitalized on being a man playing with boys.

The fact that his defense is awful and his offense has a legitimate question like that should have disqualified him with guys like Halli, Avidja, Vassell, Bey, Nesmith all on the board.

I wish I believed as much in his offense as it seems like all the serious draft watchers do. I just can’t get past the mismatch between the body and the game. He’s in a wings body and has primarily a bigs game. The tape looks a lot like what I’d expect from a guy playing against younger, inferior competition. I don’t see him as a dominant offensive player, more a good one.

We hired an NBA version of Bodie Van Wagonen. It’s going to be another 4-5 years of ineptitude for the Knicks.

I have more faith in Obi than our last three lotto picks, but that’s not saying much.

Whatever, I’m interested in who we grab at 23

Hubert: It’s just really hard to project that efficiency to the next level when the tape looks like he really capitalized on being a man playing with boys.

This is the same BS logic re: Steph Curry…beating up on low-level D1 players, older, etc.

man new orleans just keeps making good picks…..

Toppin Dunkin Son
not d-ing up any1
nice write up, farfa!!!

how’s that?

Trust me I agree, I wanted Haliburton or Vassell. But I do see some potential optimism in Obi, drafting him makes more sense than Frank and Knox did. I know that’s setting the bar super low but that’s all we got right now.

Brian Cronin:
I mean, at least Obi can shoot. That honestly is something, ya know?

He’s got a 70% FT percentage and took 81 3’s in two seasons. Are we sure he can shoot?

°°°The last time a Halliburton got a contract in New Orleans things didn’t turn out so right.°°°

Hahaha. That’s good.

well devon dotson and tyrell terry or bust now….

Highlights make him look like a 21st century Clarence Weatherspoon. But what do I know.

That’s way too spot on. Yikes. Hopefully he’s better than that! I at least like the fit between Toppin and Mitch. Let’s say they get two guys who can shoot in the backcourt in free agency. You’d have two shooters then a frontcourt of RJ, Toppin and Mitch. It’s something.

He’s got a 70% FT percentage and took 81 3’s in two seasons. Are we sure he can shoot?

Well, at least we’re not sure he CAN’T shoot!

JK47: Well, at least we’re not sure he CAN’T shoot!

This is what progress looks like… I guess

Well, at least we can say he wasn’t a reach. But he’s really going to need a good point guard throwing him the ball.

Woj: Minnesota is acquiring Oklahoma City’s Ricky Rubio, the 25th and 28th picks for a package that includes the No. 17 pick, sources tell ESPN.

GoNYGoNYGo – Ready for 2020 Knicks 2.0:
If Obi is Amare light, like his scouting report says, and he can shoot 36% from 3pt range, that would be a steal.

I don’t think he is. Amare was a much, much better athlete than Obi. Obi’s got good straight line speed and leaping ability but has no lateral speed, agility, or the ability to change direction.

Obi drew all the attention in college and dominated. Not saying he’ll be successful in the NBA, but this is like light years from a Kevin Knox pick.

Edit: I misread the Rubio trade

Magic saving us from Cole. I like Hampton at 23 if he makes it.

Calling a 22/23 year old college player “Amar’e Light” kind of defeats the purpose of the analogy as the entire point of Amare was that he was a fast breaking dunking machine in the NBA coming out of HS as a teenager.

It’s like calling Dwayne Bacon “Michael Jordan Light”….

thank god Anthony is off the board

i was hoping nesmith dropped. now i’m hoping for bane. but some of the small guards like dotson and terry seem okay, too.

Is Mills still secretly running the team?

We took the athletic scorer that plays no defense. I’m seeing a pattern here.

I thought it was lock we going to take Haliburton when he dropped. He looked like a perfect fit, but some smart people passed on him (like the Spurs). So maybe there’s something we are missing.

weird trade shamet for the 19?

edit: clippers are getting kennard actually so a little less weird

Deeefense:
Is Mills still secretly running the team?

We took the athletic scorer that plays no defense.I’m seeinga pattern here.

I thought it was lock we going to take Haliburton when he dropped. He looked like a perfect fit, but some smart people passed on him (like the Spurs). So maybe there’s something we are missing.

Isaiah.

Draft nerds love that Poku kid, seems like a nice swing for the fences from OKC

If the KB hive mind had made the pick, it clearly would have been Haliburton. And if the KB hive mind had a second choice it would have been Vassell.

Bookmark for future reference.

Hubert: It goes for literally 0% of the players in the lottery .He’s 22.Every other player in the top 10 was 19 years old.

Most of those guys will go all Mudiay/Ntilikina/Knox/RJ on their teams

It’s likely we take one of:
Tyrell Terry
Precious Achiuwa
Desmond Bane
Tyrese Maxey
Saddiq Bey
RJ Hampton
Theo Madelon

I’m good with any of them

Owen:
I feel like Randle is a better comp for Toppin than anyone else mentioned

Randle at #8 in this draft would not be a bad outcome.

Owen:
I feel like Randle is a better comp for Toppin than anyone else mentioned

Rui Hachimura

Shamet can shoot a lot better than anyone in this draft

there’s talent out there…moving around…free agency starts on friday…need to check to see which are repped by caa…

It goes for literally 0% of the players in the lottery .He’s 22.Every other player in the top 10 was 19 years old.

Age has nothing to do with it. Edwards was physically dominating guys. Wiseman absolutely looked like a man among boys in the few games he played. Same with RJ Barrett last year. These guys won the genetic lottery and have the size and athleticism to dominate the average college players. It’s nice to see someone actually dominate when they are supposed to.

MJG1789:
Ntilakilla
November 18, 2020 at 9:40 pm
Calling a 22/23 year old college player “Amar’e Light” kind of defeats the purpose of the analogy as the entire point of Amare was that he was a fast breaking dunking machine in the NBA coming out of HS as a teenager.

It’s like calling Dwayne Bacon “Michael Jordan Light”….

Harold Miner!! The man could dunk. Preferably in an empty gym.

Yeah, Minor was the right comp with MJ.

I should’ve called Bacon “Kobe Bryant Light”…

Is it fair to say that the FO has shown some restraint?

Really hoping someone takes Maxey before the 23rd pick…

Now if we take Maledon over Terry…

Steve Nash seems like a steadying influence upon a team.

Hopefully, he isn’t a paranoid, backstabbing alchy like Jason Kidd.

Heat with another smart pick.

I fucking hate that Pat Riley could’ve run our franchise once upon a time.

Trading our second to move up 4 spots not looking super intelligent right now

He actually had a higher TS% his freshman season than he did last year so it’s probably not a question of him just being older than other players. Toppin was 6’5″ his senior year in high school, wasn’t recruited at all and played a 5th season at a prep school before he got to Dayton. Hopefully, he has a little more wiggle room to improve his strength and lateral movement than the average 22 year old given how late his growth spurt was.

Ntilakilla:
This organization does not like defense. I am convinced.

I don’t know about that. Their defense was much better than their offense last year and part of that was due to playing time choices. Ntilikina got more minutes than Smith for example. There a long history of offense only players having value in the NBA. I don’t think he’s a horrible pick. It’s a very different pick than Knox. Toppin is at least really good at some things. Knox could do lots of things but wasn’t good at any of them.

I left Tre Jones out on purpose.

Funny, I am thinking the exact opposite. Some good players are still available.

I think that’s the argument for not doing the deal, though, no? Since there would still be good players at #27 and then you’d still have the second round pick.

Yeah, between Hampton, Terry, Bane, and Flynn, we should come away with a good guard prospect.

Ty Terry is still on the board baby!

should be someone good available… dotson is at the top of my board right now with terry close behind… i would be ecstatic if it was one of them….

but it will probably be jaden mcdaniels or something….

Yeah, my point is there are a bunch of guys I’d be happy taking a chance on still left

dtrickey:
Good pick by Philly. Still holding out for Hampton at 23

Me, too.

Brian Cronin: I think that’s the argument for not doing the deal, though, no? Since there would still be good players at #27 and then you’d still have the second round pick.

Not if the good players still available are taken between 23 and 26…which is very possible…

Early Bird:

So Presti traded for Poku?

Never heard of this Zeke character

Zeke Nnaji? wtf?

Terry or Hampton here makes this a good draft for us.

I think the only way they screw up this pick is if it’s another PF… lol
Looks like folks want either Terry or Hampton. Let’s see…

Go all the Way with RJ!

RJ or Terry would make me merry!

Leandro Bolmaro?!?!

With so many decent prospects we shouldn’t have squandered that extra draft pick.

Woj says it’s Bolmaro. I’m heartbroken.

Oh… another forward. Fuck?

Or he’s a guard?

Guard. He’s not bad. It’s just that he would have easily been there at #27 and, well, you know, I wanted Terry/Flynn/Bane bad.

lol we traded down for a clear win!!

Who?

WTF?

Ntilakilla:
We traded away an extra pick to choose Leandro Bolmaro.

Bwahahahahahahahaha!

Well, I am partial to Argentines

we are geniuses! turned 27 and 38 into 25 and 33!

We’re trading him to Minny for 25 and 33! I’m on board. Either Terry or Hampton will be there, and we also get a very high second for somebody like Tillman.

Wait a minute, we’re trading down, getting 25 and 33

Dolan really needs to hire people who understand the analytics value of having extra draft capital in drafts like this.

Was this Argentine worth trading away a 2nd round pick to move up four spots in this draft?

This is GM-ing 101.

OK!

Lol, this is great. Well played!

I don’t know much about this guy, but a quick look at a few mocks have him between 23 and 26, so seems about the right range maybe. Not super keen on the pick with Terry and Hampton on the board still.

Interesting… are the Knicks playing chess for once?

Wow, Rose fleeced Minnesota here.

Smart move to wheel and deal down.

Looks like we are trading the pick for 25 and 33

Rose playing 3d chess!

Bolmoro for 25 & 33. Means we turned 27 & 38 into two better picks!!!

Minny giving up 33 to move up two slots and pick someone nobody was talking about is ???? But it’s nice to be on the other side of one of those

So the Knicks turned 27 and 38 in to 25 and 33.

I’m not sure what they had in mind but it worked.

They’re going with Immanuel Quickly

That was definitely an “error establishing database connection” moment

Immanuel Quickley? Well, he can shoot the ball that’s for sure.

Quickley seems okay, but that could have been done at 33 potentially.

oh fuck this….

TheClashFan:
Well, Quickly is a pretty good name for a PG.

Yeah, but it looks like he’s a pretty bad passer for a PG.

Picking Quickley made me feel a bit sickly

Welp, that didn’t take long. I’m officially over the Rose Era.

How has Terry fallen this far?? It’s a dream that he could fall to 33, right?

vincoug: Yeah, but it looks like he’s a pretty bad passer for a PG.

He’s not really a PG. He’s a shooter, which is okay, but not a PG.

Knicks going to go hard for VanVleet?

Picking Quickley made me feel a bit sickly

You have to hope that the Kentucky guys know something we don’t. But yeah…a CAA player whose agent is Rose’s son and a lesser known Kentucky prospect. It very well may work out, but the optics are not good.

This kid is a 3 and D guard. A very niche specialty for where we took him. We’re just reaching for favorites now.

He was projected as a 2nd round choice.

Quickley can shoot but can do fucking nothing else and Terry can shoot and do other things what the fuck

We could have had him at 38!!!

He’s never going to be a starter. This is much worse than the Toppin pick. Huge reach…

I mean, shit. The trade was nice. And Quickley has at least one discernible skill, which puts him ahead of any number of Knicks draftees.

27 and 38 for 25 and 33 was a great swindle. Too bad we had to waste it on this stupid thing.

Honestly, that’s fucking disgusting. His son’s client just got a four-year guaranteed deal from daddy? Seriously?

27 and 38 for 25 and 33 was a great swindle. Too bad we had to waste it on this stupid thing.

Yeah, the trade was so good and then they use it on a guy who they could have easily gotten later in the second. So odd.

This kind of adherence to a small clique of players is so fucking predictable when you hire an agent. They are lazy scouters and always overestimate their own clients and friends. CAA has done this kind of shit before. Its one big insider’s club.

Honestly, that’s fucking disgusting. His son’s client just got a four-year guaranteed deal from daddy? Seriously?

I think the optics look bad, but it’s unfair. The son is an agent for a big firm and Toppin was supposed to go in the top five. So it isn’t like they drafted a guy projected to go #20 at #8. It was the opposite, in fact.

Quickley can shoot. His ceiling is Lou Williams.

Knicks traded 27 and 38 but got 25 and 33 back? How’d Leon pull that off?

I don’t think we should get too bent out of shape out of who they select at #25 and #33. It’s a losing proposition at that point, luck reigns supreme. This draft comes down to the Toppin pick.

This will forever be known as the Hunter Biden draft.

Knicks traded 27 and 38 but got 25 and 33 back? How’d Leon pull that off?

The Wolves were worried about losing Bolmaro, for some reason, so the Knicks got #25 and #33 in exchange for #23, which they traded #27 and #38 for.

Looking at IQ’s numbers and I don’t hate them at all. He’s old for a sophomore, but he’s actually good at basketball and played even better in conference than his overall numbers.

I’m okay with the players we’ve taken so far. I would have gone a different route, but I’m okay with this. If it were my draft, I probably go Lewis Jr at 8 and Desmond Bane at 25.

Quickley isn’t a bad pick. Terry just seems to check more boxes on the offensive end for a combo guard. Quickley does have a real advantage on the defensive end though—he’s a good defender. Optics are bad, and it’s hard to know where he would’ve gone since this draft is so weird. I’m disappointed but it’s not an out and out bad pick I think. Please pick one of Devon Dotson, Tyler Bey, Bane, Ramsey, or Xavier Tillman with the number 33 though please

Looking forward to Clyde commentating Quickly. So there’s that, at least.

Agree that late picks are a coin toss, but Terry could have easily been a late teens pick.

So we valued 3PT shooting in this draft it seems. That’s one major byline I can discern between our 8th and 27th picks.

Quickly shot 43% from 3pt. Both Obi and Quickly can stretch the floor.

Bane to Memphis, dammit. Getting annoyed all over again. Maybe Xavier Tillman at 33?

Terry could still be there at #33.

Man, Shakespeare would’ve had a field day with a guy named Quickly who is a “shooter” with a “quick release.”

For reference, look up Mistress Quickly, an inkeeper/former prostitute in several plays. IIRC, she later may have married Pistol, a guy with a quick temper/well endowed member… It was either her or her friend/prostitute Doll Tearsheet.

I’m not making this up.

Terry to Dallas, perfect fit in the Seth curry role smh

Brian Windhorst
@WindhorstESPN
After executing second draft day trade today, Knicks now looking to trade pick 33, sources said.

Link to tweet

And, of course, Tyrell Terry goes to Dallas. Everything we love winds up in Dallas. Mavsblogger, anybody?

This will forever be known as the Hunter Biden draft.

that’s funny pennies…

Vernon Carey is a bit old fashioned but that’s a good pick for charlotte

Brian Cronin:
How did Dallas get the #31 pick?

Apparently a trade back in 2016 with GSW for Bogut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_NBA_draft#cite_note-31st-30

Carey at 32 could easily end up being better than Toppin at 8.

We’re apparently taking Daniel Oturu. A center who can’t pass or defend in the pick-and-roll, per the one scouting report I’ve read.

Time is a flat fucking circle. I’m going to bed.

Owen:
Carey an excellent pick. Although much more of a widebody than I realized

He has supposedly lost a ton of weight and his outside shot looks improved! (sorry owen)

Oturu is a strange pick. If we’re keeping it, then we really have to ditch Randle and Portis.

Philly just got Seth Curry???

Oturu being traded to Clippers for a 2023 2nd rd draft pick.

Wow, Dallas got Terry at #31 to replace Seth Curry and then traded Curry for Josh Richardson and the Knicks’ original second round pick.

Man, good jobs by both GMs. Fucking Morey has rehaped Philly pretty damn quickly.

The Knicks traded the pick to the Clippers for a 2023 2nd rounder. rian Windhorst tweet

Daniel Oturu, Immanuel Quickley, and Obi Toppin. This is not the draft I wanted, at all, but all of these guys were really productive players when last seen so I can’t say I hate it.

I’m okay with the results.

Know nothing about this guy but the statistical profile is nice. 59% from 2, 36% from 3 on pretty good volume. A strong rebounder and shot blocker also.

Why would you trade a #33 for a likely 50+?

PG Simmons
SG Curry/Thybulle
SF Green
PF Harris
C Embiid

That’s an interesting team, with a lot of room to make more moves now. Morey is really good at his job.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

The 2023 2nd rd pick from the Clippers is actually Detroit’s 2nd rd pick.

It’s Detroit’s 2nd next year that they get. Strange. There has to be more than that, right?

Z-man:
Why would you trade a #33 for a likely 50+?

cuz ur clueless

The 2023 2nd rd pick from the Clippers is actually Detroit’s 2nd rd pick.

Ah, that explains that. That’s probably in the 30s, at least. Fair enough. Still, the third pick in the second round should be a good pick, right?

It makes zero sense to an early second now for a future second from the Clippers, who have Kawhi Leonard on their team. What the fuck? We’re just throwing away perfectly good picks now for the fun of it? This draft has been a genuine head-scratcher from the Knicks and it’s making me dread FA

So we traded Daniel Oturu for a Detroit 2023 2RP, which is likely a year where they will be tanking to draft Michigan’s own Emoni Bates.

I guess we’re overpaying for FVV or doing something exceptionally stupid

BigBlueAL:
The 2023 2nd rd pick from the Clippers is actually Detroit’s 2nd rd pick.

ok that’s better i guess…fwiw that should be a stacked draft

Should have drafted Quickley 33 and one of several other people 25.

That does seem to make a lot more sense to me.

pepper: cuz ur clueless

and ur drunk

Trading a good 2nd round pick for a 2nd round pick 3 years later makes absolutely no sense at all. Just completely baffling

It’s not great value for the pick, agreed. But at least it isn’t the Clippers’ pick.

lets go rangers!

Obi Toppin and Immanuel Quickley wouldn’t have been my absolute worst case scenario, but it wouldn’t have been terribly far from it

Looks to me the team had an alright to decent night maneuvering through a draft short on high-end talent. They made some incremental moves within the margins and drafted an athletic floor-stretching 4 and a legit 3&D guard who can handle the ball some – all of which are team needs. I’m good.

So I’m not mad about the Quickley pick because as an avid listener of the Knicks Film School podcast, Macri had on a host of draft guys and the consensus I got was that the draft was very fluid from pick 15-40. A quick look at his height, wingspan, and stat profile it’s hard to be mad about taking a 6’3″ combo guard with a 6’10” wingspan who shot 42% from 3 and 92% from the stripe. If he’s Allonzo Trier with defense that’s a good player.

We were never going to pass on Obi Toppin. I think he has a chance to dominate on offense, and hopefully he’s not a Kanter type on defense.

I’m disappointed we didn’t go all back court, but it’s not like you have to look at the stat profiles of these guys and talk yourself into a player. These guys were good college players.

We could’ve had Vassell, Terry, and Tillman. That would’ve been great, but it also would’ve required us to be able to have nice things, which isn’t allowed.

it is amazing how many people we hire for gm or pobo and every single one of them disrespect the most important part of the job…..

It’ll be interesting to see who the Knicks have furtively signed to be the starting point guard. Who’s a CAA client?

If Rose is getting Brandon Ingram and Van Vleet in free agency, then I’m ok with this draft.

Maybe they end up keeping Randle to platoon the 5 with Mitch? I assume Obi will get lots of minutes. And maybe the team is just really high on Frank?!?!?

This was a bizarre draft. First, I didn’t know shit about any of the players because COVID cancelled the NCAA season.

Then, Toppin, Vassell, and Halliburton all fall to be available at 8, and while I also liked Halliburton and Vassell better, it is also pretty funny to see how much picking Toppin trolled our PTSD-ridden Knicks fan brains.

Then, the FO pulls off an honest-to-god One Red Paperclip move by moving both their late 1st and 2nd round picks up a few spots and giving away nothing in the process.

Then, they pick two guys not on the KB shortlist of late round talent, and we smear pig’s blood on our faces and Leon Rose and Walt Perrin are burned in effigy.

The capper is trading the 2nd round pick for a high 2nd rd pick in… 2023?? This is an exquisite headscratcher.

But at least it’s not Kevin Knox bad!

The new front office is the same as the old one.

Just a ficking joke while Presti and Morey are out there doing Cirque du Soleil shit

Front office is something we can spend as much as we want on.

detroit could be good in 2023!

I think I’m getting league pass this year and officially adopting the Grizzlies as my B team

Owen:
The new front office is the same as the old one.

Just a ficking joke while Presti and Morey are out there doing Cirque du Soleil shit

Front office is something we can spend as much as we want on.

Whut?

Doug Chu: The capper is trading the 2nd round pick for a high 2nd rd pick in… 2023?? This is an exquisite headscratcher.

Not accurate. the future 2nd round pick surely has more trade value than Daniel Oturu.

There will be lots of hand-wringing over this draft by other teams. We did not do poorly, especially given the speculation over the last few days, e.g. trading #23 and #8 for #5.

As to “buying” picks, we could do that whether we made the trade or didn’t. It comes down to, is it better to have the future pick or an available player right now?

An answer about why they traded for the 2023 2nd round pick….

2023 will be a double draft because that is the 1st year they will allow high school players to be drafted.

There are some interesting UDFAs but we are dumb and won’t sign any of them so not gonna bother

That is a myth. No one picked at #33 or after at this moment had more value than the Detroit #2 pick in 2023. Hindsight could change that, but right now, that’s a fact.

Maybe. You’re also projecting future value that’s inherently unknown. Knicks need to put baby birds in their fucking hands.

We don’t know how good Detroit is going to be in 2023. There are only 2 second round picks better than the 3rd pick in the second round. Even assuming 2023 is the year they let HS kids back in the draft-which is not a sure thing-if Detroit is good that pick is still going to suck.

We should also really try to sign Dotson, he’s a pretty decent PG prospect. Should have just drafted him.

They both can shoot. The both can score inside and out. I have to imaging that they’re signing their starting point guard and that the deal is and has been in the bank.

Quickley shot 48% at the rim and 38% inside the arc. He did get fouled a decent amount, but he was otherwise a terrible inside scorer

There is one good NBA player on the Knicks roster, we should be trying to get more good NBA players. Just one man’s opinion.

DRed: Quickley shot 48% at the rim and 38% inside the arc.He did get fouled a decent amount, but he was otherwise a terrible inside scorer

His 2Pt% was 41% and much of his scoring was driving to the rim. From your post it seems he needs to work on a mid-range game. But if he’s taking 5 shots from 3pt range per game and making 41% of them, maybe he should never take a 10 footer?

Meanwhile, here’s where our cap stands post draft. Sounds like Bullock is definitely getting his option picked up. Payton might, or we might sign a free agent. So for the moment, that gives us a roster of

PG: DSJ/Payton (or free agent TBD)/Quickley/maybe Jared Harper
SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
SF: Knox/Iggy/maybe Pinson or Dameyan Dotson (Devon Dotson signed with the Bulls)
PF: Toppin/Randle
C: Mitch/Wooten/maybe Taj on a cheaper deal

That is… not a great roster at the moment. A lot is going to depend on Thibs’ schemes and how well Payne, Bryant, and the other coaches can develop the younger players. If seeming lost causes like Knox and DSJ begin looking like viable rotation players, and if Thibs can improve on the general competence of the Mike Miller era Knicks, we’ll still be bad, but at least competitive. If not, I’ll get all my tank gifs ready!

(A lot may also depend on who Free Agent PG TBD winds up as. Fred Van Vleet is a very different result than DJ Augustin, though I wouldn’t mind Augustin.)

Alan:
Meanwhile, here’s where our cap stands post draft. Sounds like Bullock is definitely getting his option picked up. Payton might, or we might sign a free agent. So for the moment, that gives us a roster of

PG: DSJ/Payton (or free agent TBD)/Quickley/maybe Jared Harper
SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
SF: Knox/Iggy/maybe Pinson or Dameyan Dotson (Devon Dotson signed with the Bulls)
PF: Toppin/Randle
C: Mitch/Wooten/maybe Taj on a cheaper deal

That is… not a great roster at the moment. A lot is going to depend on Thibs’ schemes and how well Payne, Bryant, and the other coaches can develop the younger players. If seeming lost causes like Knox and DSJ begin looking like viable rotation players, and if Thibs can improve on the general competence of the Mike Miller era Knicks, we’ll still be bad, but at least competitive. If not, I’ll get all my tank gifs ready!

(A lot may also depend on who Free Agent PG TBD winds up as. Fred Van Vleet is a very different result than DJ Augustin, though I wouldn’t mind Augustin.)

I agree, not a great roster. Two comments. We are not heavy on power forwards anymore and two, I just can’t see putting DSJ ahead of Frank at PG.

“Alan
November 19, 2020 at 12:55 am
Meanwhile, here’s where our cap stands post draft.”

Cool, Joakim Noah is the third highest player on the payroll. #knicks.

My guess is Julius Randle is none too happy at the moment.

Well, I have no idea about the draft, and I always feel like “big boards” and “mock drafts” make it seem like everything is graded smoothly, but afterwards there are busts or all-stars all over the place. So, rootin’ hard for our new Knicks. However, I really wanted some playmaker in this team and this seemed a good draft to get one, Rubio was traded to Minnesota for not too much, and no FAs with those qualities (I find Van Vleet to be a streaky shoot-first guy, not the PG the Knicks need). A bit disappointed then, but I guess we will have to wait for half a season to start knowing the players we have drafted.

I’d feel a lot better if we had gotten one more decent player. If we could add Terry or Bane or Carey or even Tillman or Dotson I’d be a lot more okay about this draft.

I think I can come around on Toppin and Quickley. But we just mismanaged our assets. It’s really like we didn’t care to bother to get a third player so we just reached for Quickley and went home.

If Quickley was from literally any other school, I might applaud drafting an insanely talented shooter and solid defender. But now it seems like a reach for a player they could have grabbed at 33 and drafted another solid prospect this year.

Toppin is fine for this draft. Again, I would have more confidence if I knew this was due to the scouting department and not nepotism.

Trading into the double draft is smart in general but there were players available who look like solid prospects. I’ll be upset if we don’t find some good value for all 15 roster spots and the 2-ways in free agency.

And the best news of all is that we will get to see them play in a couple of weeks!

Why would we not even go after Devon Dotson as an undrafted free agent??

This team will never fail to mystify me.

ess-dog: Why would we not even go after Devon Dotson as an undrafted free agent??

Yeah, it would have been nice but probably not a big deal.

Tweets say Dotson grew up a huge Derrick Rose fan and really wanted to go to Chicago, FWIW.

My preference for Obi over Vassell was recorded in real time for posterity and I’m happy my laptop survived. When an Amare 2.0 type is available at 8, you take the risk and you take him and you thank the fates that led to teams above you taking people like Patrick Williams lol. The Knicks need stars. When there’s a guy with actual star potential sitting there at 8, you take him.

I’m cool with Quickley. Guy can shoot and that’s a massive skill, SEC player of the year. Happy with the draft. Sublime asset-managing perfection? No, it was not.

I agree with this from Z-man:

There will be lots of reasons to kill this FO forthcoming, but tonight was at worst meh and at best a solid B+-A-. Both guys were excellent college players and we need everything.

But not this from The Athletic:

Quickley is an absolute shocker, a good shooter but undersized and not much of an athlete. I’m not sure anybody had him in their top 40, and one wonders if the Knicks overrated him based on the Kentucky connections in their front office.

I mean, we just hired an analytic guy and a draft guy who are reputedly very good at their jobs. Why should we assume that some magazines’ judgement of players late in the draft is better than the Knicks team’s judgement. (Even if it’s a quality magazine, which it is, their draft evaluation resources are certainly smaller than a pro teams). If our analytics guys have reason to believe certain player attributes compensate for lack of size in Quickley, they might be right. It’s worth waiting and seeing.

Also, that Quickley response on The Athletic is from Hollinger, who absolutely hates the Knicks, and takes cheap shots at them in basically every column, even ones that otherwise have nothing to do with them. Obviously, this organization has deserved most of the scorn it’s gotten over the years, and everyone was surprised Quickley went that high, so he could be entirely right. But the glass half-full look is that he’s an elite shooter, and guys with one elite skill — especially that one — can be better bets to have good pro careers than guys who are good at a lot of things but elite at none. Terry, Bane, and Flynn all still seem like smarter choices at 25, but we also hired two assistant coaches with spectacular resumes for player development. Hopefully, they can help both Toppin and Quickley maximize their respective potentials.

If you’ve got 8 minutes to spare, here’s a good conversation between Zach Lowe, Mike Schmitz, and Jonathan Givony about Toppin’s pros and cons. Some red flags, but also some really promising things, especially since they were talking about him in the context of the top 3-5 picks.

A lot of it’s age illusion. People project things that aren’t there onto 19 year olds because they’re 19, and miss things that are there about 22 year olds. There’s a risk that boomerangs back and bites the Knicks in the ass, but it’s a risk worth taking. If a Patrick Williams had stayed at FSU, the odds that he’d be tearing up college basketball at 22 the way Obi did, are very low.

CAA reps half the league and I don’t know if you know this but UK has a pretty good college basketball program.

It’s also “good” that March Madness got cancelled or else Obi would have had a nice run and probably moved up on boards.

Gotta love how we have to second guess all the FO’s moves because of our glaring conflicts of interest. I guess if we could endure the immortal Chris Smith saga, we can endure an overabundance of Kentucky players over the next few years.

RE: the draft, mixed feelings. I was pleasantly surprised to see them improve our draft position at no cost by fleecing another team, but then they immediately dashed that by how they handled the last pick. It really seems like we could have had Terry and Quickley instead of Quickley and a second round pick in the double draft in a few years. If we had come away with Toppin, Terry and Quickley I would have been very happy with the draft.

I like Quickley. I like Toppin. My concern is limited only to the process that went into picking these two.

If they were both at the top of the draft board for the Knicks, then everything is fine. But there’s the itch in the back of my mind, the place where all conspiracy theories are born, that’s whispering something is rotten.

Even then, I feel better about this draft’s results than the last 3 and an overwhelming majority dating back to 2000.

Meanwhile it seems they guaranteed Bullock. I imagine they will let everyone else go today, and maybe bring Taj back at a lower number.

I don’t know if we would have had Terry and Quickley. I’d peg the Mavs as the team the Knicks worried about scooping him.

The Seth Curry trade says the Mavs were looking for a replacement there and Terry & Quickley most fit the mold.

I do think there’s merit to targeting specific players but you better be damn sure your draft guys know what they’re doing and I’d argue most NBA offices don’t.

The draft is so hit or miss that if you’re sure, then you shouldn’t hesitate to go all in on the guy you like. Again, I would not trust most offices to do it but it can work.

I’m going to reserve judgement until I see some of these guys play a little, but I still have some thoughts,

The Knicks need a PG, stretch PF, some perimeter shooting, and ultimately a #1 and #2 scoring option.

Haliburton is a PG with almost the exact profile I look for in players (good playmaker, very high basketball IQ, very team oriented, good outside shot, a perfect fit with RJ and/or Frank). The only thing that’s missing is plus defense, but I haven’t heard anyone say he’s bad.

Topin is probably way more ready to contribute now because he has an NBA body. He’s also a much better scorer. Maybe he can become a reliable scoring option. But I really worry when I keep reading that he’s a “tweener” (in a negative way as opposed to having versatility) and when other people are saying he’s almost hopeless defensively. I’m also worried about his ability to stretch his 3 point shot out to the NBA line and the kind of fit he’s going to be next to Robinson because they both like to go to the rim. He’s going to need to stretch that shot.

Personally, I think it’s way easier to find a quality stretch PF via trade or free agency than it is to find a young quality PG. So for me, given all the above, Haliburton would have been the clear preference. But as I said earlier, several teams also passed on Haliburton, including the Spurs. So there may be something I don’t know that scouts have seen that suggests his game won’t translate to the NBA as well. I wish I had seen more college ball.

The fit between Obi and Mitch is really the swing “skill” of this draft — if Obi’s 3 pointer is not real, then we have a serious problem. But– if it’s real — big IF – then that plus Obi’s short roll passing could be lethal with Mitch in the dunker spot.

interesting to see what happens with Knox and Randle now. Maybe Randle moves to backup 4/5 , and Knox plays backup 3? (or both get traded)

Unless they think Topin is not ready to come in and start, I think this seals the deal that Randle is going to be traded. I’ll say this again and again. Randle is better that he showed in NY last year. It was just a horrible fit and situation for him asking to be the #1 option (when he’s more like a 3rd option) and putting him on a court with no space. So if we trade him, we’ll be selling LOW.

I know this has been said a lot, but I can’t wrap my head around the fact that the Knicks did some great arbitrage there, moved their 1st and 2nd round picks for nothing, only to basically waste that late 1st on someone who in all likelihood would be available for their 2nd round pick, which they promptly threw away. Amazing stuff.

So for the moment, that gives us a roster of

PG: DSJ/Payton (or free agent TBD)/Quickley/maybe Jared Harper
SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
SF: Knox/Iggy/maybe Pinson or Dameyan Dotson (Devon Dotson signed with the Bulls)
PF: Toppin/Randle
C: Mitch/Wooten/maybe Taj on a cheaper deal

That is… not a great roster at the moment.

quibbling with your positions for a bit…

i think bullock is a very important player for us. he can shoot and is competent. I’d rather have him out there making life easier for the good prospects than sticking Frank or Knox in there.

Bullock-Barrett-Toppin-Mitch should be our core lineup. If Toppin‘s outside shooting is real and he can mesh with Mitch better than Randle did, there’s a lot to like there. it gives Barrett what he needs to make a leap, if he can. having him be the primary ballhandler with four offensive threats will be a lot different than what he had to work with last year.

of course we need a stopgap PG who can shoot to make that happen.

Unless they think Topin is not ready to come in and start, I think this seals the deal that Randle is going to be traded.

I think it’s important to keep in mind that on top of the fact that the overwhelming majority of rookies are bad (from Partnow’s excellent piece yesterday about 1 in 3 rookies is above replacement level and <10% are above average), this class faces some really unique challenges. Normally guys have months to get to know the coaching staff, get in the conditioning program, get on the right diet, play summer league, and just generally adapt to being a professional basketball player. These guys are facing training camp in like 10 days and trying to do all that on the fly, plus they haven't played a real competitive game in like 9 months and it's going to be a super condensed schedule with minimal practices once the season kicks off.

Expectations should be rock bottom for immediate contributions from this class and even though Toppin is older I do not think it's wise to pencil him in as a starter right away.

Yeah trading the 33rd pick for a second rounder in 2023 is a bit of a head scratcher. But even if its not the “double draft” all we really did was push a second round pick down the road a bit. I guess it could be a worse second round pick. But that year we will have 2 first rounders and now 2 second rounders.

If we project that the Knicks are better by 2023, then our first round picks may not be lottery picks. With 4 total picks you have the ability to trade up (like we did yesterday). So maybe the thinking is, hey, in 2023 we’re going to be better so our first round pick won’t be good. Doncic will be in his prime so the Dallas pick won’t be good. But that draft could have really good players even in the teens, so having another second rounder could help us move up and add a good player to a team on the rise.

Plus now we have RJ, Mitch, Frank, Knox, Toppin, Quickly. That’s 6 young players that we will want to get significant PT this year. Then you throw in Iggy, DSJ, Wooten, etc….plus a few vets. There’s not a lot of spots left. G-League may not happen too.

I’m just encouraged that we were able to turn 27 and 38th into 25 and 33 without giving up anything. We’ve never done something slick like that.

I’m also encouraged that we drafted 2 guys based on their output and stats, not based on “potential” and they both seem like high character dudes.

I think we will go after FVV hard. I know some people won’t like that move but if we do get him our starting line up could be:

FVV
Quickly
RJ
Toppin
Mitch

That ain’t setting the league on fire but its young line up with lots of room to grow and on paper could theoretically make a lot of sense together.

if you think the moves are fine i’m pretty sure you’ll be in for a rude awakening….

the first pick is defensible but indicative of where they are in terms of talent evaluation…. the fact that they were about to trade up for obi is most concerning…. the second pick is not…. and trading out of the 33 is indefensible…. we are terrible and saying that we don’t need extra stabs at good players now is dumfounding…..

watching decent players goto competent front offices is super frustrating when we basically give away our picks for nothing…. it’s indicative of a very bad process that they don’t know how bad our guys are… philly has championship aspirations and they have more respect for roster spots than we do….

this is right in the neighborhood of the frank and knox drafts in terms of how telling it was that our front office is terrible…. and we are about to do more terrible things too…..

thenamestsam: Expectations should be rock bottom for immediate contributions from this class and even though Toppin is older I do not think it’s wise to pencil him in as a starter right away.

I understand everything you are saying, but these days most rookies are younger. Topin specifically seems to have an NBA ready body and is going to a terrible team like the Knicks. So if anyone can make the jump it would be him. If not, then maybe they’ll continue with the awkward Robinson/Randle combination for awhile and trade him later.

I really don’t get how an analytically-oriented board here doesn’t agree with the logic of trading the #33 pick in this year’s extremely weak draft for a future 2nd rounder in what is likely to be a much stronger draft. The odds that the player we would have selected would have more value in a trade package two months from now than that future 2nd have to be like 10% or lower. The most likely 5-year outcomes for a guy drafted at #33 are vet’s minimum deep bench guy or out of the league. If the FO did not see a player that they felt would swing the odds in their favor, then kicking the can down the road to a deeper draft makes perfect sense.

Could we have gotten Quickly at 33? Most likely… But, if we did that, then CAA super-client John Calapari would have one less player get drafted in the first round! How is he going to keep recruiting one and done players if he can’t show them Kentucky is the best path to the NBA? I admire Rose’s dedication to his clients!

djphan:
if you think the moves are fine i’m pretty sure you’ll be in for a rude awakening….

the first pick is defensible but indicative of where they are in terms of talent evaluation…. the fact that they were about to trade up for obi is most concerning…. the second pick is not…. and trading out of the 33 is indefensible…. we are terrible and saying that we don’t need extra stabs at good players now is dumfounding…..

watching decent players goto competent front offices is super frustrating when we basically give away our picks for nothing…. it’s indicative of a very bad process that they don’t know how bad our guys are… philly has championship aspirations and they have more respect for roster spots than we do….

this is right in the neighborhood of the frank and knox drafts in terms of how telling it was that our front office is terrible…. and we are about to do more terrible things too…..

So for the record, what would you have done?

I expect them to go hard after FVV too. Isn’t Wood redundant at this point with Toppin and Mitch in the fold? Quickley will not start so you are looking at:
FVV
Bullock
RJ
Toppin
Mitch

Yeah, there’s no point to a Wood signing now. In addition to a PG of some kind, we could probably use another wing, unless you believe Iggy is read to be part of the rotation. Is there anyone on the market who can shoot and wouldn’t cost a ton? (Or, at least, would cost a lot on a short deal?)

the clippers trade was us giving them a dime for nickel. “double draft” has no value. time has value, and being at the top of the round had value. we sacrificed both and didn’t get compensated for it.

that trade needed to be 2 future seconds for it to make sense.

djphan:
if you think the moves are fine i’m pretty sure you’ll be in for a rude awakening….

the first pick is defensible but indicative of where they are in terms of talent evaluation…. the fact that they were about to trade up for obi is most concerning…. the second pick is not…. and trading out of the 33 is indefensible…. we are terrible and saying that we don’t need extra stabs at good players now is dumfounding…..

watching decent players goto competent front offices is super frustrating when we basically give away our picks for nothing…. it’s indicative of a very bad process that they don’t know how bad our guys are… philly has championship aspirations and they have more respect for roster spots than we do….

this is right in the neighborhood of the frank and knox drafts in terms of how telling it was that our front office is terrible…. and we are about to do more terrible things too…..

well said.

like in every draft…. my board is posted…. so what i think about any particular draft is an open book…..

Dink: Same here. The Rose era will likely be mediocre at best. Knicks’ front office is still light years behind other teams like Memphis, Denver, and Dallas. Overdrafting Quickley and trading the 33rd pick for a future pick that will very likely be lower was very dumb. Still no guarantee the 2023 draft will be the ‘double draft’; it’s insane for Rose to make that trade without getting another asset.

It’s going to take more than nepotism and Kentucky connections to build this team into a contender. Not sure Rose has it in him.

This is an incredibly jaded and logically flawed take. I already pointed out the fallicy of the traded #33 pick…quality of draft and uncertainty matters in asset valuation for trades. As to Kentucky, more good NBA players have come through Kentucky than any other college, why is is a bad idea in and of itself to have an inside track with those players? As to CAA, they are the most prominent agency in the NBA, why is it a bad thing in and of itself to have connections there?

Regardless of these issues, the proof is in the pudding. Toppin should be judged by how he performs relative to his draft slot, Quickley is a late first round flier in what is by all accounts a weak draft, and the #33 pick is most likely to land a bust or vet’s min player easily replaced on the waiver wire and we already have more prospects than roster spots.

If I’m an NBA free agent and look at this mess of a team I am not signing my career away with the Knicks. When is spring training?

For all the posters looking at our team now, the Knicks are far from done. We have a ton of cap space, some players that might be on the block, and still need a starting PG. Let’s debate the team when it’s set. Right now I think the debate is about the quality of our draft selections and how they fit with RJ/Robinson/Frank/Knox who are all likely to stay. (maybe Knox is out, but I actually heard some very positive things yesterday about his off season development).

with all due respect, Z-Man, I think the flaw in your logic is your assumption that the 2023 draft is going to be some spectacular bonanza. the standard deviation on projecting second rounds 3 years away is as high as it gets. the rest of us just see it as a random pick in 3 years and don’t assign extra value to it bc it’s in 2023.

the cost to move into the high second round has been clearly defined over the years. this pick was worth either two seconds or a future late first. the fact that leon rose either didn’t know that or didn’t care about that is of great concern.

Early Bird: You do when we’re the team with the most money

Only if you suck, are chasing the money and need to find a sucker. (See Joakim Noah)

GoNYGoNYGo – Ready for 2020 Knicks 2.0:
Name the team(s) in the NBA that have a worse lineup than the Knicks.

Arguably, Chicago, Charlotte, Cleveland, and Sacramento. Not sure about anyone else.

if Obi’s offensive game transfers directly into the NBA, our lineup doesn’t suck at all outside the PG position.

and it’s reasonable to expect significant improvement from Barrett in year 2.

there’s at least something to look forward to.

Did we sign any UDFAs or was Vernon Carey the last prospect in the draft we thought could be a useful pro?

vincoug: Arguably, Chicago, Charlotte, Cleveland, and Sacramento. Not sure about anyone else.

Sacramento drafted Haliburton. Charlotte got LaMelo.
I’ll grant you that Cleveland and Chicago are in the hunt for worst lineup.

The Quickley pick is a D-. Here’s a spreadsheet that shows how mock drafts, analyst big boards, and statistical models ranked every player in the draft.

There is just a ton of herding / groupthink in these mock drafts. So showing me how x number of mock drafts all say X doesn’t really mean much to me to be honest.

What does mean something to me is how much interest teams show in players – ie. how much of a team’s limited time have they actually spent with prospects?

Immanuel Quickley’s trainer Jide Sodipo has told me that the Kentucky guard has talked to almost all NBA teams except the Blazers.

And of the 29 teams, he has already interviewed twice with the Knicks, Lakers, Thunder, Jazz, Bucks, Pistons, and Heat.

So of those he interviewed twice with, Lakers and Jazz had picks between 25 and 33. Mavericks took a similar player at 31 in Tyrell Terry. But basically everyone other than the team with both Dame and CJ McCollum had interest in him.

EDIT- that second quote is from @alderalmo (from Empire sports) twitter account. just wanted to attribute it.

It’s the price that was available. The only choices were to either exercise the pick or take the best deal available.

C’mon, this logic is silly. We all agree there’s some price below which you just take whoever is highest on your board even if you don’t love that guy, you can’t say “This trade is good because it’s the best they could do”. Ultimately the trade is either good or it isn’t on the merits .

And it doesn’t really matter that the 2023 2nd rounder is likely to be a lower pick in a roughly equal draft. For the next 3 years it is highly likely that the perceived value of that pick will be higher than the actual value, and more valuable than whoever we would have picked will be. You yourself said “If all you want to do is preserve trade value you’re probably right.” Isn’t that what asset management is all about?

I mean “asset management” is a means, not an end, but this is an interesting philosophical argument. It seems like you’re kind of arguing that making any draft pick (maybe outside of slam dunks) is for suckers and the smart move is always to roll it over into a future equivalent draft pick which will hold its value better. I mean why would we ever make that pick in 2023 when it’s extremely likely that whoever we pick will be a known benchwarmer within a couple months. We could probably get a 2026 2nd rounder instead if we play our cards right. This is kind of an argument for using draft picks only as trade pieces.

Doesn’t Quickley look a lot like Malik Monk on paper? That’s a fine pick at #25, I suppose, but Monk hasn’t exactly thrived in this league as an undersized 2. And Monk’s profile was a bit better coming out of the same role for the same organization.

Ntilakilla:

hahaha

fucking leon has as much brodie in him as he does gettelman. it’s not what you want.

Monk was the better all around scorer and player, but Quickley is a better three point shooter, rebounder, and defender. I think Quickley also knows his role a lot better than Malik, and is not an inveterate chucker (but his 2pt% outside of floaters is ghastly–please gain 20 pounds of muscle!) so he might have more staying power than Monk, since Quickley fulfills a high-demand NBA role if he hits, and Monk would not, unless he really hit, which he didn’t do.

GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: It’s the worst FA class in a decade and, as I said, none are going to play for this team unless they are in it just for the money.

This has been a chronic problem partly due to our style of rebuild and incompetence, but we have new guys in charge here now. We aren’t going to attract stars yet, but we may still get a few good players on fair contracts as a step towards better things.

thenamestsam: I mean “asset management” is a means, not an end, but this is an interesting philosophical argument. It seems like you’re kind of arguing that making any draft pick (maybe outside of slam dunks) is for suckers and the smart move is always to roll it over into a future equivalent draft pick which will hold its value better. I mean why would we ever make that pick in 2023 when it’s extremely likely that whoever we pick will be a known benchwarmer within a couple months. We could probably get a 2026 2nd rounder instead if we play our cards right. This is kind of an argument for using draft picks only as trade pieces.

god bless you for having the patience to explain it so well!

i truly appreciate everyone who wants to look on the bright side, but Knicks’ Front Office Apologists are literally winless since the blog was created. and i’m not saying i haven’t been one sometimes. i like me some wait and see. but when you see, you see. don’t close your eyes.

Toppin and Quickley look fine if you hold them up separate from the rest of the world. Weird, but intriguing. My problem is when you hold them up with the rest of the world as backdrop. Quickley seems like a poor man’s version of Haliburton, who we could have gotten with 8 — I think Tyrese is a likely solid starter as a hybrid 1-2 on the right team, while I have a hard time seeing Quickley topping out as anything more than a potentially useful bench player. And Toppin seems like Randle 2.0, who we already have, albeit for more money. Maybe Randle is out the door, but these moves don’t seem to actually improve the team in any meaningful way — more like shuffling the deck chairs. I hope I’m wrong, but that’s my view this morning.

Frank:
TBH – Frank + Quickley + RJ + Obi + Mitch is at least interesting.RJ will be a good defender, and Frank+Quickley has the possibility of being very tough at the point of attack.Mitch can probably clean up some of the Obi stuff. I just hope Frank’s shot has continued to improve.

yeah as a jumping off point, i’m into this. it’s an intriguing combo of O and D.

One other quasi-defense of trading out of the 33rd pick: training camp is going to be about a month this year, and it’s possible there won’t be a G-League season. So taking a prospect now who won’t be part of the rotation and may gather dust over the course of a long and strange year isn’t ideal from a player development standpoint.

Toppin dominating the NCAA is better than Toppin NOT dominating the NCAA, but the players that dominate both the NCAA and the NBA are few and far between. There are the Anthony Davises and the Tim Duncans, but most of the guys that dominated in college are older dudes who had much less impact in the pros: Frank Kaminsky, Doug McDermott, Frank Mason, Jimmer Fredette, and Tyler Hansbrough, among others.

Frank: I assume if you make a draft pick then that person needs one of the 15 roster spots or else you relinquish rights?

You still have to sign the player you draft, so you have some time to cut other players. Not 100% sure how this works though. If we did go over the roster cap, we wouldn’t forfeit the rights. Also, the NBA expands roster size to 20 for training camp most years. I assume this takes effect within the time frame to make it a non-issue but again don’t know for sure.

thenamestsam: C’mon, this logic is silly. We all agree there’s some price below which you just take whoever is highest on your board even if you don’t love that guy, you can’t say “This trade is good because it’s the best they could do”. Ultimately the trade is either good or it isn’t on the merits .

What’s silly is that you just said yourself that I was “probably right” in terms of asset management. So the trade was fine on its merits, in your own words. I don’t get your attempts to spin what I said into “just burn assets for whatever you can get, regardless of what that is.” That’s incredibly disingenuous, as is idea that “you should have gotten more than what you got” without any evidence that a better deal was out there. Just because it’s not what you would have done doesn’t make it a bad move, especially when you yourself said that it is arguably trading a lesser asset for a greater one.

thenamestsam: It seems like you’re kind of arguing that making any draft pick (maybe outside of slam dunks) is for suckers and the smart move is always to roll it over into a future equivalent draft pick which will hold its value better.

This is an intellectually dishonest reductio ad absurdum take. Clearly I am referring to this specific instance only. However, in general, I believe that if you want to improve your team, you should continually make transactions that result in assets with higher value coming in and assets with lower value going out. In this case, you can make an argument either way. What I object to is making a sweeping generalization about Rose et. al. because you think that taking someone at #33 was some kind of no-brainer. Again, you yourself said that it probably resulted in a more valuable asset coming in than going out.

***Quickly could be Monk. He could also be Tyler Herro or Jamal Murray. ***

Maybe. But both Herro and Murray were younger, bigger, and better coming out of college.

Quickly could be Monk. He could also be Tyler Herro or Jamal Murray. That’s why it’s a draft.

“He could be a guy he profiles very similarly to, but he could also be guys who profiled much better than him” is not a very compelling argument

comment awaiting moderation?

thenoblefacehumper: “He could be a guy he profiles very similarly to, but he could also be guys who profiled much better than him” is not a very compelling argument

Malik Monk would be a well above average outcome for a #25 pick.

Malik Monk would be a well above average outcome for a #25 pick.

Malik Monk also had a much better profile than Quickley in college. I’m sure there are examples here and there but it’s very hard to find guards with Quickley’s ghastly 2PT% who went on to have long NBA careers.

“I’d rather wait and see.”

+1

Z-man, I think you’re making more of a totally minor disagreement over an extremely minor transaction than is necessary. Nobody is trying to “spin” what you’re saying or anything like that. You came in asking why the board wasn’t impressed by trading #33 for 3 year out 2nd round pick. I made my case that the difference in the drafts is probably very minor and I think it’s pretty clear that historically the price for #33 would be higher than what we got in return. Obviously I have no idea if a better deal is out there but if you make a deal and get back less than is customary I don’t see why you’d expect people be to be impressed by that. I haven’t made anything even approaching a sweeping generalization about Rose based on that, so maybe you have my comments mixed up with someone elses, but I just think it’s a mediocre return for #33. Anyway I’m not willing to take the tone to the place it seems like you want to go so I’m going to disengage on this topic.

Quickley’s ghastly 2 point percentage are the result of his inabiltiy to finish at the rim, but he was able to get there, which shows he has at least some skill/athleticism. Off the top of my head guy who got to the rim but couldn’t finish in college who has succeeded in the NBA is Fred Van Vleet (who still can’t finish at the rim).

The Knicks need a lot of things, but they don’t need another G league player

You mean like Christian Wood, who is about to get paid up to $18 mil a year for his services?

Frank Kaminsky, Doug McDermott, Frank Mason, Jimmer Fredette, and Tyler Hansbrough, among others.

In most cases, I would agree with this sentiment, but these guys are all much less athletic than Toppin, who most draftniks consider to be an elite athlete.

donovan mitchell was another although his problem was more shot selection than ability to finish…. terry rozier is also another… and he’s basically barely made it over the mendoza line to keep himself playable throughout his career…

other than that… the pickings are slim….

trying to generate some optimism but largely failing. toppin has some spectacular traits. he looks like a mix between tatum and lma out there but he’s shooting 3s and doing dunk contest things in game. but i am so sure he will suck defensively and that his handle will prevent him from being a real threat off the bounce, that you’ll mostly just end up with a talented player who dunks a lot. if he hits 3s that’s enough to mostly be useful even if the D sucks. but even in that case you might have a guy that’s a liability in a playoff series. it’s just very hard to be the sort of tweener-big toppin is — even an elite version of one — and end up a really useful player. maybe i’m overdoing how bad his D looks to me.

Malik Monk has short arms, so if arm length is your thing, there IS that I suppose.

Also, to inject a human interest story into this draft, I remember the 1995 draft and my realization that I was older than all the top picks that year. It was a weird feeling. But this draft was the first draft that all the top picks were younger than my children. (I can’t wait for the 2045 draft, when all the top picks are younger than my grand children). Life through the lens of the nba draft…

Sometimes you buy more food than what you can eat.
It’s not crazy or stupid to put a part of it in the deep freezer instead of cooking it.
It’s called economy.

is it possible to get food poisoning from a fortune cookie

thenamestsam: I mean “asset management” is a means, not an end, but this is an interesting philosophical argument. It seems like you’re kind of arguing that making any draft pick (maybe outside of slam dunks) is for suckers and the smart move is always to roll it over into a future equivalent draft pick which will hold its value better. I mean why would we ever make that pick in 2023 when it’s extremely likely that whoever we pick will be a known benchwarmer within a couple months. We could probably get a 2026 2nd rounder instead if we play our cards right. This is kind of an argument for using draft picks only as trade pieces.

I don’t know that there’s a single thing in sports where there’s a higher discrepancy in fucks given between the real people doing the GMing and player personneling, and the armchair versions of same, than with NBA second round draft picks. This very same version of the actual people in the arena essentially giving zero fucks about them plays out every … single … year.

I wanted Oturu as Mitch’s backup.

GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever:
I wanted Oturu as Mitch’s backup.

Isn’t that going to be Randle’s job?

I’m not crazy about the way that draft night went down…as I said, I would have picked Hali and either RJ Hampton, Terry or Bane, all of whom were available when we had #23. There are very legit reasons to fear that Quickley will not be a legit rotation player and that Obi will be a defensively-challenged highlight reel with a limited offensive game. At least in the Kevin Knox draft we came away with Mitch…we could wind up with essentially nothing.

But I’m not buying into the whole CAA/Kentucky doomsday theory. Not yet, anyway. There will be a time for that if and when they start doing some unequivocally dumb shit, like trading draft picks for Westbrook or wasting cap space by overpaying for the likes of Portis and Ellington. Toppin and Quickley….and Leon Rose and Thibs…deserve a fair look-see. I’ll give them until New Years Day before passing judgment.

Based on my read of this thread I’m pretty sure we should put Topin and Quickley on the block immediately while they still have some value because they are clearly busts. Maybe we can package them with Frank and Knox (who I heard finally reached puberty in the off season) for a 2nd rounder that we can use to draft a G League player. Gee wiz, let’s see these kids play and let’s see what the new coaches can do to improve on their weaknesses and add to their strengths before we get too down on them. It takes time to develop and build like this. I’m more interested in what they are going to do with the cap space and some tradeable assets like Randle and maybe DSJr.

Sounds like we’ve signed Myles Powell, according to Begley.

Does Quickley have a cocaine problem?

If not, then he might end up being better than Monk.

Yeah the negativity here is a little crazy.

Both Toppin and Quickley have good college numbers. Aren’t we supposed to like that?

Toppin was projected to go higher than #8. But we didn’t trade up or trade away an asset to get him. Isn’t that good thing?

We turned 27 and 38 to 25 and 33 without giving up anything. Isn’t that some slick GMing that we’ve never seen the Knicks do?

So we traded away 33 for a second round pick in 2 years. I get people think we need players everywhere but honestly…adding Toppin and Quickley to a team that all ready has RJ, Mitch, Frank, Knox, Iggy etc….how many youngsters do you expect to get consistent minutes on this team? There might not even be a G-League this year too.

Quickley at 25 is NOT a reach. To act like this is Knox 2.0 is dumb,

“is it possible to get food poisoning from a fortune cookie”

only if you trade it with an undercooked poultry such as an albatross

I did think it was revealing that when they had Calipari on to talk about Quickley he quickly said some banal nice things and then immediately pivoted to talking about how Tyrese Maxey went way too low.

this is definitely you projecting your feelings onto what Calipari said – he was really effusive with his praise:

“We win the league by three games and he’s a player of the year in our league,” Calipari said. “He’ll stretch the court. He’s culture, faith-driven. This kid is going to get so much better. He can play on the ball, off the ball. The Knicks got something. The Kniiiiiiiicks got something. I can’t wait to watch him play.”

Re: Myles Powell – someone mentioned his concussion on twitter and how his shooting went downhill after:

Concussion was 12/14/19
Prior to that he was 36/91 (39.5%) from 3
After the concussion he was 43/167 (25.8%)

Apparently it was a bad concussion –
One can imagine maybe he is undervalued right now? Supposedly was a possible 1st round pick going into this past season.

See, I can find optimism anywhere.

Maybe I am projecting but that doesn’t sound like that much of a ringing endorsement, especially compared to what he said about Maxey

ptmilo:
payton portis dotson wooten gone

Gibson?

Myles Powell is a reasonable pick up. He’s a bit short for a 2 guard, but he has long arms and was a good college scorer. Seemed to have a bit of a down year his senior season-anyone here follow Seton Hall?

ellington gibson gone too. steve mills getting the harvey keitel treatment.

Now seeing Ellington & Gibson gone.

I could see Taj & Payton coming back on cheaper deals. Supposedly Portis & Knicks have mutual interest.

Maybe Wooten gets signed to training camp? Does that make any sense? Compete for the two-way.

I don’t think Wooten has any real NBA prospects unless he starts hitting threes (unlikely) but damn would he be fun to watch.

Elfrid is the interesting one I think. Outside of FVV there really isn’t anyone on the free agent market that I’d consider a significant upgrade over him and his deal was totally reasonable for 1 year. It’s always possible that the new management just prefers a different placeholder option, but this definitely increases the odds that we’re planning a splash at that position, meaning most likely either FVV or Westbrook.

Trading away the second round pick is not a move I was a fan of. There were some interesting players still on the board. Theo Maledon wasn’t worth a flyer? Tyler Bey? Elijah Hughes? Tre Jones? Nico Mannion?

I’m a Raiders fan in the NFL world. And they’re doing okay this season. But Rose’s draft strategy here seems a lot like Jon Gruden’s draft strategy. Gruden has guys he gets fixated on, and he has no problem with reaching for them even if it’s a complete waste of draft capital. If the guy he wants gets picked one selection ahead of his, he won’t have a backup plan and he’ll just trade away the pick.

I just don’t understand why we’d convert a pick in 2020, when we’re in clear rebuilding mode, for a pick several years down the line when that pick might be less valuable to us. It’s a waste of draft capital and it doesn’t speak well of this front office. I’m okay with the two guys we drafted but the process seems off. Sure, Rose pulled off a nice moving up both of our late picks while giving up nothing, but then he just gave all of that capital right back.

So as we stand now:
Mitch
RJ
Randle
Frank
Bullock
Knox
Obi
Iggy
IQ (love it!)
DSjr
Harper
Pinson
Powell

Does that sound right?

trying to recall our current roster at the moment, but, seems like we’ll need to bring in at least six or so free agents/trades to fill out the roster…

thanks z-man, just saw you posted the list:

Mitch
RJ
Randle
Frank
Bullock
Knox
Obi
Iggy
IQ (love it!)
DSjr
Harper
Pinson
Powell

wow, that is a lot of young guys, solid 20 win team there…

This smells like a big trade/FA signing coming our way.

JK47:
I just don’t understand why we’d convert a pick in 2020, when we’re in clear rebuilding mode, for a pick several years down the line when that pick might be less valuable to us. It’s a waste of draft capital and it doesn’t speak well of this front office. I’m okay with the two guys we drafted but the process seems off. Sure, Rose pulled off a nice moving up both of our late picks while giving up nothing, but then he just gave all of that capital right back.

People were saying here yesterday that the 2023 Draft could be the mythical “double-draft”, when high school prospects would be once again allowed to enter the Draft without going to college for a year. If that’s true, the trade was good.

IMO, we are making WAY TOO BIG a deal over trading a trash 2nd round pick in a draft they clearly didn’t like anyone else in for a pick in the future.

This is like crying because you traded some leftover Chinese food you found in the back of the refrigerator for a meatball sandwich a couple from years from now.

Who cares?

We got something back of value we can trade or use at a later date.

Even “if” there is some very small difference in value (and I’m not sure there is), it’s like not bending over to pick up a penny you see on the street. It’s not like we walked past a $100 bill.

The Westbrook/RJ/Knox/Toppin/Randle lineup is gonna be dynamite with their 185 Defensive Rating!

The Glass Half Rebuilt:
Just came down the pipe that Klay has indeed torn his achilles. That’s really tough.

Daaamn.

Draymond and Iguodala must be feeling like “Final Destination” characters right now :/

cgreene:
Does anyone think GSW goes into rebuild if Klay has a torn Achilles?

I don’t think they really have to….and Steph isn’t getting any younger.

Z-man: I don’t think they really have to….and Steph isn’t getting any younger.

Why don’t you think they have to? They aren’t making the playoffs out west. Imagine what they could get for Steph.

My current thinking is the Knicks wanted IQ because he fits in nicely next to Westbrook.

IQ
Westbrook
RJ
Toppin
Mitch

That would be fun. Still don’t want Westbrook.

cgreene: Why don’t you think they have to? They aren’t making the playoffs out west. Imagine what they could get for Steph.

I just can’t see the Golden State Warriors doing something like trading Stephen Curry after he spearheaded 3 championships.

Regarding Toppin: he feels like his best case comp could be healthy Blake Griffin, given his size, athleticism, and college dominance. However, take away the college dominance, which isn’t the greatest sample, given the conference, and another comp could be Trey Lyles, who’s been a decent but underwhelming pro, and about the caliber of player you’d expect from an #8 pick in a weak draft.

IMO, we are making WAY TOO BIG a deal over trading a trash 2nd round pick in a draft they clearly didn’t like anyone else in for a pick in the future.

This is like crying because you traded some leftover Chinese food you found in the back of the refrigerator for a meatball sandwich a couple from years from now.

There are good players selected in the second round pretty much every year. If you can’t identify somebody who MIGHT potentially be a useful piece at 33 maybe you should let somebody else take a crack at this whole “drafting” thing. You know what we have as a talent base on this team? As my Italian grandfather would say, we got stugots.

Donnie Walsh:
Regarding Toppin: he feels like his best case comp could be healthy Blake Griffin, given his size, athleticism, and college dominance. However, take away the college dominance, which isn’t the greatest sample, given the conference, and another comp could be Trey Lyles, who’s been a decent but underwhelming pro, and about the caliber of player you’d expect from an #8 pick in a weak draft.

The thing about Obi Toppin is you can see a healthy NBA scoring diet from him early on. You let him shoot corner 3s, attack close outs with one dribble, and you get him running in transition. The problem with Toppin is on defense, and I think he has both the right mentality and the right coaching staff to get him right on that end. He also has a 7’2″ wingspan and a Mitchell Robinson. Those two should get him out of trouble more often than not.

Ok you guys convinced me on the Steph thing.

Sure does seem like the Westbrook train is warming up and ready to leave the station. Thing is I heard that new Rox GM was being pretty demanding in what he wants in return. May actually prevent us from making an enormous mistake.

I know he’s the enemy now, but I wonder what Amare’s thoughts were when the Knicks got Obi. And the goofball in me really wishes Toppin had said “THE KNICKS ARE BACK” in his post-draft interview lol

The Glass Half Rebuilt: The thing about Obi Toppin is you can see a healthy NBA scoring diet from him early on. You let him shoot corner 3s, attack close outs with one dribble, and you get him running in transition. The problem with Toppin is on defense, and I think he has both the right mentality and the right coaching staff to get him right on that end. He also has a 7’2? wingspan and a Mitchell Robinson. Those two should get him out of trouble more often than not.

The problem with Toppin is that he doesn’t have any secondary skills beyond scoring. He’s a bad rebounder, an atrocious defender, and a bad playmaker for others. If he’s anything less than Amare as a scorer he’ll be out of the league.

Yes, we all know Obi’s weaknesses. Those could change.

Z:
“vincoug
November 19, 2020 at 2:08 pm
The problem with Toppin is that he doesn’t have any secondary skills beyond scoring. He’s a bad rebounder, an atrocious defender, and a bad playmaker for others. If he’s anything less than Amare as a scorer he’ll be out of the league.”

Sounding more and more like Al Harrington by the day.

That’s an interesting negative comp…

We just opened up 40 million in cap renouncing Taj, Ellington, Portis, Payton and Dotson.

Taj they think could come back for less, which I don’t mind.

I think the plan is to go hard after FVV. He fits the timeline better, is a better fit than Westbrook and won’t cost anything but cap.

I think Westbrook will be a possible fall back option if they can’t entice FVV. I gotta say, I think we have a fair shot at FVV. I think our main competition for him will only be Toronto.

Maybe a more forward-y Aaron Gordon?

Z:
“vincoug
November 19, 2020 at 2:08 pm
The problem with Toppin is that he doesn’t have any secondary skills beyond scoring. He’s a bad rebounder, an atrocious defender, and a bad playmaker for others. If he’s anything less than Amare as a scorer he’ll be out of the league.”

Sounding more and more like Al Harrington by the day.

Derrick Williams is who I keep thinking of.

swiftandabundant:
My understanding is Obi is a pretty good passing big.

If he is, it’s not reflected in the stats. Two years ago he averaged 1.8 assists to 1.9 TO/game. Last year, it was 2.2 assists and TO/game.

Worth watching this cut-up from Dayton vs Kansas (ie. Obi vs. Azubuike)
Definitely mixed on defense.
Some frankly amazing blocks by Obi – as a weak side rim protector he might have some promise. Held his own at times against Azubuike but several times just got overwhelmed (Azubuike has like 4 inches and 60 lbs on him). But on the other side, Azubuike clearly could not deal with him on offense.

The offense looks fantastic, including a stepback 3 which looked pretty smooth. He can put the ball on the floor with either hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PonQFZBkzFc

If that stepback three over a tall guy is really a consistent part of his NBA repertoire, look out. Sky’s the limit at that point.

Beyond trying hard and the occasional strip, he can’t guard low post first round talent 5s playing low post ball, but there won’t be any need for him to do that.

@JeffreyBellone
It seems Myles Powell will likely be signed to an Exhibit 10 contract which will allow him to participate in training camp and either be converted to a two-way or given a nice bonus if sent to G-League, depending on how that works out this year

So they’re not just slotting him into Wooten’s old contract position.

Some frankly amazing blocks by Obi – as a weak side rim protector he might have some promise.

I don’t buy the Amare comps on offense really at all, but it’s funny I do see shades of Amare in his defense. Amare also had that thing where sometimes he’d make a play on D that would remind you “oh yeah, that’s one of the most athletic guys in the league” but he just wasn’t in position consistently enough to make an overall positive impact on that end and that’s what I see with Obi. When the moment is perfectly aligned for him and he needs to run in a straight line, jump, and use his and eye coordination to block, those are all things he’s really, really good at.

I expect he’s going to make enough highlight reel plays on D that by midseason the MSG crew are going to be pushing the narrative that he’s been better on defense than anyone expected. The question is how much he’s taking off the table the rest of the time and that we will have to wait and see I think.

the pistons sorta seem like they are not going to pay more than their early bird max for wood now that they made the ariza and dedmon trades? i lost interest in wood when it looked like there might be a bid into the mid to high teens, but he might be interesting in the 10-12 range, which will be above the early bird max.

edit: i didn’t see snell was in the dedmon deal, that makes it close to no cap impact. still, they might not have more cap room than their EB max

I’m officially worried now that the Knicks have cleared up all that space. Westbrook is coming. And they waived Wooten to boot.

Everyone’s gone!

Taj, Portis, Elfrid, Ellington, Wooten & Pinson all waived or had options declined.

This is the team as it stands:
RJ Barrett, Obi Topin, Julius Randle, Mitchel Robinson, Dennis Smith Jr., Frank Ntilikina, Immanuel Quickly
Reggie Bullock, Ignas Brazdekis, Kevin Knox, and Myles Powell

“Z-man
November 19, 2020 at 2:17 pm
That’s an interesting negative comp…”

Hey, Al Harrington was a woulda, coulda, shoulda kind of talent. He’s just the same size kind of over-sized tweener forward who could score with creativity, but did little else out there, despite having all the tools…

al harrington earned almost 100 million during his career…

Stein:

The Knicks have been aggressive in their pursuit of Gordon Hayward all week, sources say

Amid a growing belief leaguewide that Hayward will decline his $34 million player option for next season, New York may loom as Hayward’s best option given all the Knicks’ newfound cap space

UPDATE: Begley counters with this:

Filed this to SNY a few minutes ago: some Knicks decision makers have indeed had interest in acquiring Gordon Hayward. But it’s seen as less likely now that the club used its draft picks last night. Full story posting soon. Ringer and NY Times also noted NYK-Hayward interest

Al Harrington was never a nuclear athlete like Obi is. He was mostly a below-the-rim player. His max # of dunks in a season was 81 in 66 games, and Obi had 107 this year in 31 games.

Also Al’s HIGHEST FG% in a season was 47.5%. Obi Granted that’s in the pros and not at Dayton, but they’re really just not comparable at all. Stylistically he is far closer to Amare than Harrington – and he shoots 3s also, whereas Amare never did for whatever reason.

I’m just not sure what all the doom and gloom is here. For Pete’s sake, even Jowles has some optimism about Obi. Dude had a TS of ~70% on 25+% usage with dunks galore, shot 40% from 3 point range on over 100 attempts, and even knows how to pass the ball a bit. Who cares if he is 22 years old – and FWiW he put up roughly he same #s in his age 21 season. And his numbers held up against tougher competition – it wasn’t just against 6’5″ white guys. vs Kansas and Azubuike he went for 18 points on 11 shots, 9 Rebs, 3 blocks, and Dayton nearly pulled the upset to boot despite him being the only player on Dayton remotely close to being an NBA player (as opposed to Kansas having Azubuike, Dotson, etc and being the #1 team in the country) – ie. not just empty numbers.

You know, for all the talk about FVV and/or Westbrook, the Pelicans’ guard rotation now includes Lonzo Ball, Eric Bledsoe, George Hill, JJ Redick, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, and Kira Lewis.

By the way, which one of us is Dan Devine again?

Thoughts on this?

@VinceGoodwill
The Minnesota Timberwolves have made guard Malik Beasley available in discussions, and the New York Knicks are one of several interested teams, according to sources. He averaged 20 after being traded from Denver to Minnesota last season

my hypothesis: we’re trading randle and maybe another player a Dallas 1rp to houston for russ, then signing hayward to a long term deal (4 years to make up for the loss compared to opt-out) with the rest of the money. I then promptly kill myself, either before both their legs stop working or after.

There are good players selected in the second round pretty much every year. If you can’t identify somebody who MIGHT potentially be a useful piece at 33 maybe you should let somebody else take a crack at this whole “drafting” thing. You know what we have as a talent base on this team? As my Italian grandfather would say, we got stugots.

We don’t need guys that are highly likely to either not make the team or become some filler at the end of the bench. We need bonafide starters and all stars. If you don’t see a real gem down there, imo you are better off not making a selection just for the sake of it. Maybe we can use that future pick as a small part of deal that nets us a real player at some point the future. That’s my preference. I also think the idea is to eventually consolidate assets (like the Dallas picks) and whatever else someone may be interested in into a real player. I’m not a fan of the shotgun approach. To me, that’s an admission that you don’t know what you are doing and are trying to get lucky with diversification.

Kendrick Perkins compared Obi Topin to Blake Griffin.

Hayward opted out of his Celtics contract. It’s between us and ATL.

Shams called the opt-out.

Perrin did draft Hayward. Gulp.

We’ve traded for Ed Davis. I am now getting Scott Layden PTSD flashbacks

Doug Chu:
We’ve traded for Ed Davis. I am now getting Scott Layden PTSD flashbacks

Please be a salary dump and the Knicks get a pick…?

Dink: Looks like it is. Woj reporting that the Knicks are also getting two 2023 2nd rounders in the trade.

Nice. Rose loading up for 2023?