Pablo Torre posted a leaked e-mail from Dolan to folks in the Knicks organization explaining why Dolan won’t be making an official statement about George Floyd (28 other NBA teams have, with the Spurs being the only other team not to make a statement).
It’s not gassing a bunch of peaceful protesters so that you could clear out the area in front of a church for a photo opportunity bad, but nor is it good.
278 replies on “As You Would Expect, James Dolan Has a Terrible Take on George Floyd”
So fucking stupid to not put out a statement stating that they stand in solidarity with the family and peaceful protestors during a difficult time in the US.
Use those deep pockets to make a donation to a worthy cause in his honor as well. Jesus Christ…
This is why the Knicks (under Dolan) can’t land those big free agents. They just can’t get the simplest things right. The top free agents can pick the place they want to work, for the most part. Why on earth would they choose this organization?
And that’s true of not just players, but coaches and GMs as well. This will never be a good team with this idiot owner.
Whether or not they put out a public statement or not doesn’t matter, in my opinion. That stuff is all for show anyway, and doesn’t indicate a greater level of care, concern, or action from an organization. It’s what people do that matters, particularly when no one knows or are watching. Not what they say. And certainly not what they say through press releases.
I have no issue pointing out issues with Dolan. I am not pissed off at him for this.
I can only see a part of the letter on that Twitter pic…
dolan may have signed off on it, but, it is definitely not his writing…way too literate for that…
sounds like he’s trying to use that jordan: “republicans buy sneakers too” line…
I’ll tell you, the fact that dolan is the owner always hits hard whenever it looks like maybe this team might just be ready to dig themselves out of a hole…
espn just showed the whole letter…all I can think about now is guitar jimmy sitting down with michael kay and occasionally feebly fumbling through that sad looking notebook/binder thing of his…
maybe jimmy d is saving up all his empathy for a song…
Is this really surprising? Dolan is a known Trump supporter.
> Whether or not they put out a public statement or not doesn’t matter, in my opinion. That stuff is all for show anyway, and doesn’t indicate a greater level of care, concern, or action from an organization.
Yeah but that’s the easy part and he can’t even get that right. What message does it send to players when he can’t even make an empty statement?
I think treading water in this situation isn’t going far enough. And most players know that. Especially when this is on the other side of the ledger.
https://twitter.com/SBondyNYDN/status/1267623402996711426?s=19
As sure as the sun sets in the west, Dolan will make the wrong decision. If his drapes were on fire and he was holding a glass of water and a glass of kerosene, he’s tossing that kerosene.
He is an awful, awful little man.
Sure, this is a horrible statement, but just wait until you hear the sweet ass tune Guitar Jimmy writes to commemorate this event. I’m thinking he might be able to do it as part of a medley with his song about Trayvon Martin.
Sadly it does not appear that the great bluesman treated his ‘rona with the recommended Clorox and hydroxychloraquine cocktail. Bummer.
“Our company is committed to upholding our values, which includes creating a respectful workplace for all.”
Haha. Okay. Shall we stroll down memory lane…
“Would you find it offensive also for a black male to call a black woman a bitch?” he was asked. Thomas responded, “Not as much and I’m sorry to say, I do make a distinction.”
According to Browne Sanders, not only did the Knicks do nothing to end the harassment or discipline Thomas, they fired her.
Actually it was worse. According to Sanders she was first threatened by Steve Mills who said he would spread rumors about her, that she was cheating on her husband with a member of the coaching staff, if she didn’t drop her complaint.
And Mills was her friend! He’s the one who brought her aboard! That’s why I always found Mills to be of low character.
Let’s keep this in the news as much as possible so as to maximize the chances that Dolan will wind up lashing out and saying something racist or at least racist enough for Silver to finally make him go. It’s the perfect atmosphere for it.
Just look at the response from winners: Mark Cuban, Greg Popovich, LeBron James and Steve Kerr just to mention a few. We know what we have in Dolan.
Dolan may be a Trump supporter, but I don’t think he’s a racist. Just look at his hiring record.
Strat you can cycle through usernames as much as you want, if you keep firing off takes like this, and doing the whole “smart teams are coming for Ntilikina” thing, people are going to know.
In all seriousness, if James Dolan/MSG/The New York Knicks had a history of operating in a manner that demonstrated the slightest bit of concern for marginalized people, perhaps they could be forgiven for not issuing a public statement right now.
The main problem is the obvious way in which it fits into a larger pattern of petulant, unempathetic, snide behavior from the top down. You can argue it doesn’t matter all day and night, but players around the league rightfully pick up on this.
Always nice to get a reminder that no amount of front office restructuring is going to make a dent in this team’s fortunes until the head of the snake is dealt with.
This is the organization that is still paying all its employees despite them having no work because of the virus and which made significant contributions to charity for others affected by the virus. So I forgive them for not making a public statement.
>Strat you can cycle through usernames as much as you want, if you keep firing off takes like this, and doing the whole “smart teams are coming for Ntilikina” thing, people are going to know.<
As usual you are proving that you are a moron.
That was not me.
If you want my take, I'd be glad to give to you in the next post even though you are an asshole that knows nothing about basketball, most likely nothing about policing or the stats on these cases, and even though you are enough of a prick to attack or accuse someone of making a comment they did not even write.
Go crawl into a hole you fucking scumbag.
The hardest pass of all time.
George Floyd? Wasn’t really understanding why they were looting Macy’s but makes sense- seemed like a bit of an overreaction to Thibodeaux being in pole position for the Knicks coaching job.
This is all pretty terrible. Quite worried about how ugly it can get. And seeing my conservative friends on social media only makes things worse.
Very proud of all the people out there protesting peacefully.
RIP Wes Unseld
Dolan should have made a statement because no sane human being is in favor of the kind senseless police brutality we saw in this case. That’s all he had to do. Just comment on the policing.
If there’s any divide it’s on whether all these cases are racially motivated.
The fact is there are plenty of senseless white on white, black on black, black on white etc.. police related beatings, shootings, and deaths. Even in this case the 4 cops were not all white. The stats adjusted demographics and crime in the area are all available for those that want them.
We can’t have cops like this of any nationality or race behaving anything like this with people of any nationality or race. Whether they are racist, not trained well, suffering from PTSD from being cops, or something else, they all need to be off the force and in jail when they commit crimes like this.
I feel terrible that other innocent people are getting hurt and killed over this. Some are losing their homes and life savings as their businesses are getting looted and destroyed. Many are black, None of that is helping.
I’m a 61 year old retired white guy living in a very mixed neighborhood with friends in the community of virtually every nationality, race, and religion.
You know what my gut reaction to this is?
I can’t control the police and I can’t control how people react to bad policing. This may be a dangerous place for me to live!! That’s a terrible way for me to feel, but totally rational given what I see going on.
We are in an endless loop of crime, bad policing, and protest/riots and until we solve the core problems we won’t escape the loop.
>The hardest pass of all time.<
You owe me and even the forum an apology you dickhead.
Don't ever accuse me or anyone else of saying something they didn't say on a forum like this.
Yesssss.
I think you misunderstood him, friend. He just meant he didn’t want to hear your take.
Welcome back. Let’s not cause any strife about this. Not a time to stand out with contrarianism. This is one of those rare things where there is really just one take.
One doesn’t really say anything about the other. Plenty of people at his level believe that African Americans who have risen to the top deserve to be welcome, while privately being in complete support of the systematic racism that keeps large parts of American citizens oppressed.
>I think you misunderstood him, friend.>
I know he didn’t want to hear my take.
Earlier in the thread someone else posted something he thought was a terrible take and he accused me of saying it via a different ID. That was not me. That was way out of line. If some asshole comes here some day and says some terrible things, how would you like it if I attributed those words to you and said it was your burner account or another ID. You’d rightfully be very pissed off at me. He owes me and the forum an apology.
I am sorry that your takes are so consistently bad that when I see a bad take on this board I think there’s a fairly good chance you wrote it. Going forward, I pledge to do a better job of recognizing that other people have strat-level awful takes too.
And racism isn’t an all or nothing proposal. Trump may hire Black people (Omarosa, Ben Carson, etc.) and still call peaceful Black protesters “thugs” and think that the Central Park 5 are guilty. One act of a anti-racism doesn’t override other acts of racism. Dolan can write a song about Travon, and MLK, and Nelson Mandela, and still support policies and politicians that hurt people of color.
Btw considering how political LeBron is, I wonder if that’s one reason he turned down NY as a destination? Or alternatively, I wonder if a more woke owner would have appealed to him?
It’s a ridiculous argument. Donald Sterling hired plenty of Black personnel too.
You just want to hate on Dolan. You can’t admit he might have good points as well as bad points.
thenoblefacehumper.
Don’t worry. Just because you are an asshole when you are young like now does not mean you will remain asshole your entire life. There’s plenty of time to outgrow it and also to learn about the subjects that interest you like basketball.
I feel you. While you were away, some asshole spent three days attributing all sorts of words I didn’t say to me.
But it does seem like you began posting under the Lockwood moniker. It’s understandable to think you might do it again.
I can’t speak for everyone, but I’m sure many are willing to accept that you’re not NativeNYer if you say so.
***You just want to hate on Dolan.***
I want to eat, breath, and hate on Dolan.
I plan to live my life in a way that leaves people like you thinking I am asshole
Hey, there are successful black people in America so racism must be over!
Gonna substantively respond to the point that plenty of well-known racists have hired Black employees or nah?
I’m happy to admit he has a strong hiring record and give him all the credit in the world for that.
I’m just saying it doesn’t mean anything other than that he has a strong hiring record.
“And racism isn’t an all or nothing proposal. Trump may hire Black people (Omarosa, Ben Carson, etc.) and still call peaceful Black protesters “thugs” ….”
Mike I understand this is your site but I have to call absolute Bullshit on you for this torturing of reason. Trump’s actual quote is below:
“These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won’t let that happen,” he tweeted. “Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!”
You would have to be the looniest of the loonies to read that statement and think Trump was calling “peaceful Protesters “THUGS”
The THUGS he was referring to were clearly the looters and the firebombers….. not the peaceful protesters. How on God’s green earth could peaceful protesters dishonor the memory of Mr. Floyd?
Trump says plenty of silly shit but it is not necessary to make shit up.
You want to be angry at someone…. try these two beauties out:
https://jonathanturley.org/2020/06/01/two-new-york-attorneys-arrested-for-throwing-molotov-cocktail-at-police/
I’m pretty sure you said you were about results, not process. Sounds like you got grabbed by the pussy.
That’s not the only time he’s used the words thugs in regard to protesters.
Just one of many examples: “The organized group of people, many of them thugs, who shut down our First Amendment rights in Chicago, have totally energized America!” -Trump, 2016
He said protesters should be roughed up at almost every campaign rally he had in the summer/fall of 2016. They weren’t looting. Their only crime was not supporting him.
“I’m pretty sure you said you were about results, not process. Sounds like you got grabbed by the pussy.”
I’m pretty good at reading but is there an English translation for this.
And once again Jowles doesn’t address an issue. Another upset. Is there as reasonable person who read Trump’s quote an actually thought he was calling peaceful protesters “THUGS” and not the looters and firebombers?
And tell me there is a single one of you who doesn’t wish in your heart Guilani was Mayor this past week and not the current putz in chief……..
We’re really gonna debate whether “thugs” is a dog whistle word? The fuck outta here with that.
I guess when you’re a dog, it just sounds like a regular whistle.
Give me a case of someone who hired an entirely minority top management team, but was clearly a racist. I don’t know of one. I consider his hiring record suggestive of lack of racism, even if you don’t. Of course, he could still harbor secret racist Instincts, but I don’t consider his letter about the lack of a public statement from MSG evidence of this. He has a long history of protecting people in his circle, whether they are Isaiah Thomas or anyone else. I consider his letter that he doesn’t want to make a statement likely to stem from this rather than racism.
Sigh…
I..
Lookit..
I’ve got so much to say about the climate we’re in. It’s such an emotionally stressful time, that I often don’t say what I should when I should. But I will say this:
There are too many people lookin at the surface and either erroneously focusing on the surface, or not taking it seriously enough to give them a chance to see the underlying issues. Historically, we’ve been citizens, but not humans to the (for lack of a better phrase) powers that be. Our entire existence in America, we(and I mean people of African descent) have either been property, or a threat. Or at least that’s the way we’ve been handled. It hurts. Bad. As a black man, I really REALLY appreciate those of other races and in other countries protesting the atrocities that happen far too much in America. But what we need is not people standing alongside us protesting because American society hurts- disparate effect or not- blacks. It’s been going on for too long. What we need is help getting the people who dehumanize and demonize us to see the human as well as the color. We need the whites of this country to stand against America’s crimes against humanity. I mean, there are people who don’t even realize the pain caused by the bigoty they perpetuate because it’s been normalized. Society has been conditioned to be desensitized to it. It’s gonna be a helluva fight, but isn’t it worth it?
I know there are plenty of people who don’t agree with that POV, but the dialogue has to start somewhere adjacent at least. We have to have these painful conversations, ask the hard questions, and do the self reflection- because if we just stand by then we are all guilty by association.
“WeLL, aCcOrDiNg tO MeRrIam WeBsTer, ThUg iS dEfInEd aS…”
So I guess Donald Sterling is not a racist because he hired Elgin Baylor to run his franchise for 22 years.
“We’re really gonna debate whether “thugs” is a dog whistle word? The fuck outta here with that.”
I guess when you’re a dog, it just sounds like a regular whistle.
Thug is an noun to the non canine among us. I suppose you can make everything in the English language a “dog whistle” if you care to.
A peaceful protester cannot by definition be a thug no matter how you want to contort language….. its just silly.
I understand all things ORANGE MAN BAD but the Greek chorus loses credibility more that occasionally….
““WeLL, aCcOrDiNg tO MeRrIam WeBsTer, ThUg iS dEfInEd aS…”
Hmmmmmm…. should I listen to the Webster dictionary or the dishonorable cock jowels…. tough question.
Bob N, I’m curious to hear your take on protesters being hit with tear gas and rubber bullets so that Trump could walk across the street and hold a Bible up in the air in front of a church?
I mean, you’re really going to have to twist yourself into a pretzel to come up with a justification for that. Even Trump’s buddy Lindsay can’t come up with anything.
I mean JK said all you need to know. Bob is not going to acknowledge that “thug” is a loaded word, because the entire strategy behind using words like it as opposed to more on-the-nose racial terms revolves around people like Bob maintaining thinly plausible deniability.
Echoes of William Barr’s confirmation hearing: “I’m trying to grapple with the word ‘suggest.'”
***Is there as reasonable person who read Trump’s quote an actually thought he was calling peaceful protesters “THUGS” and not the looters and firebombers?***
What about these, Bob?
“The protesters in New Mexico were thugs who were flying the Mexican flag. The rally inside was big and beautiful, but outside, criminals!” -Donald Trump, on non-violent protesters
“We have a protester! By the way, were you paid $1,500 to be a thug?” -Donald Trump, on non-violent protesters
“The Mayor of San Jose did a terrible job of ordering the protection of innocent people. The thugs were lucky supporters remained peaceful!” -Donald Trump, on rewarding his supporters for not being violent to non-violent protesters
“Many of the thugs that attacked the peaceful Trump supporters in San Jose were illegals. They burned the American flag and laughed at police.” -Donald Trump, on protesters that violently laughed
The Knicks should have said something for PR, I guess, but NBA teams are full of shit. For example, the Sixers said this:
“It is unacceptable, and we cannot and will not tolerate it in our community. Now, more than ever, we must strive for accountability, including ensuring that our community is treated with fairness, transparency, and dignity. We must stay united and strong during the conflict and hurt we are experiencing. The 76ers are committed to using our voice and taking action to support and drive change that is long overdue.”
“For our city. For our country. For our future. For each other. #PhilaUnited”
but their owner lends Jared Kushner money and has advised the Trump administration. It’s just PR.
***Is there as reasonable person who read Trump’s quote an actually thought he was calling peaceful protesters “THUGS” and not the looters and firebombers?***
What about these, Bob?
“The protesters in New Mexico were thugs who were flying the Mexican flag. The rally inside was big and beautiful, but outside, criminals!” -Donald Trump, on non-violent protesters
“We have a protester! By the way, were you paid $1,500 to be a thug?” -Donald Trump, on non-violent protesters
“The Mayor of San Jose did a terrible job of ordering the protection of innocent people. The thugs were lucky supporters remained peaceful!” -Donald Trump, on rewarding his supporters for not being violent to non-violent protesters
“Many of the thugs that attacked the peaceful Trump supporters in San Jose were illegals. They burned the American flag and laughed at police.” -Donald Trump, on non-violent protesters (that violently laughed?)
“Bob N, I’m curious to hear your take on protesters being hit with tear gas and rubber bullets so that Trump could walk across the street and hold a Bible up in the air in front of a church?”
Sure…. does the President of the United States have the right to move at his convenience from point A to point B in Washington, DC ….. hmmmmmm that a tough one….. I would say yes.
Did the authorities ask the protesters to move and they refused, or did the authorities come out with guns blazing just for shits and giggles. If it is the later they would be wrong…… if it was the former then they got what they deserved.
If the secret service tells people to move 200 meters to the right so the President can safely pass and they refuse, well….. then they are going to move you whether you like it or not.
So this is the big injustice…. the secret service/DC police moving a crowd so the President can pass….. but not uncontrolled looting and firebombing nation wide….. you fellas are’t the least bit concerned about that????
sadly, i don’t think that is ever happening…people hate, just to hate…it’s a part of who they are…we need transparency and better oversight of our police forces…
two things that have really stuck with me the last few days has been Kareem’s characterization of racism:
“In his L.A. Times op-ed, Abdul-Jabbar described racism as like dust, barely visible, permeating the air.”
“Have you ever been in a room and you feel a little something itching in your nose?” he said. “There’s something in the air, a dust or pollen that you can’t see. But if you take a flashlight and shine it through the air, you see all these little dust motes in the air and little particles.
“Racism is like that. It’s ingrained in our society. And it’s taken for granted. And all of the things that are taken for granted can accumulate and be deadly on certain segments of the population. It comes down on the heads of poor people and people of color.”
and will smith’s quote:
“racism isn’t getting worse. It’s getting filmed.”
i don’t know, probably foolish optimism, but, hopefully this time – positive change will follow these recent tragic events…
How telling is it that Bob literally cannot conceive of the possibility that the President of the United States would make the following calculation:
“I really want a picture taken of me holding up a bible in front of a church. However, getting that picture taken at this exact moment might require physically harming innocent people. So I will not get that picture taken at this time.”
It’s incredible. It’s just a given that President Big Boy has the right to do whatever it takes to act on his own whims.
I’ve criticized Obama plenty and I can back that up upon request, but Bob, can you say with a straight face that he would’ve made the same call if he wanted the same picture?
Any word can become loaded if the media defines it as such and even if by its actual definition it’s not loaded.
Since “thug” (like “posse”) as defined by the media and SJWs are now loaded (even though technically they shouldn’t be), they are now loaded. That means you are better off not using them no matter what your intent. Even if your intent is to talk about criminal acts (thugs) or close friends (posse) it will be interpreted as racist. That defeats your effort to communicate clearly and opens you up to attack by your enemies. It was a dumb word to use. It should go on the long and growing list of words that used to mean something else but are now barred from use.
Any word can become loaded if the media defines it as such even if by its actual definition it’s not loaded. Using those word defeats your effort to communicate clearly and opens you up to attack by your enemies. It was a dumb word to use. It should go on the long and growing list of words that used to mean something else but are now barred from use.
I don’t even want to respond to Bob as he’s just the worst sort of twisted apologist for what is a shit stain on our country, but Trump did not specifically call out the looters as thugs. As he has so often done since well before he took office, and throughout his term (remember Mexicans are rapists?) he paints a broad swath of people with the most foul sort of racist trope. It’s what he does, over and over. For people to try and defend it (oh no, he meant just the rapist Mexicans!) is the most base kind of hypocrisy.
“I mean JK said all you need to know. Bob is not going to acknowledge that “thug” is a loaded word, because the entire strategy behind using words like it as opposed to more on-the-nose racial terms revolves around people like Bob maintaining thinly plausible deniability.”
Wow…. you have the soaring intellect of Vizzini to suss that one out great logic!
Wm of Occam would likely say…. nahhhhhh thug means a violent person especially a criminal…… which is the absolute perfect description of the people that fomented violence upon the entire nation .
You geniuses realize many (maybe most?) of the thugs who perpetrated the recent violence were Caucasians of the laughable anarchist bent, right….
https://nypost.com/2020/06/01/nyc-targeted-by-anarchists-to-loot-high-end-stores-nypd-chief/
My 2 cents is the following:
1- Everyone should be appalled at what happened to George Floyd
2- The way the police is recruited, trained, managed, and overseen needs overhaul
3- Most cops are probably (yes, I said probably) good, decent, or not bad people.
4- Trump is not a good man.
5- The response to the killing should be different. Peaceful protests are fine. I don’t care if people go down to wall street and lay down to keep the economy from running, they deserve to. But this video I literally just got of a forklift tearing down a Target? DC on fire? Rodeo Drive broken? Peaceful citizens hurt? Cops killed? Macy’s and the rest of NYC looted? No cops in sight in NYC, probably because they don’t want to risk their lives and careers for a public that hates them? So-
6. There should absolutely be policing going on right now. Looters, rioters, anarchists, people who want to assault and beat people who are defending their lives and property should be found, arrested, and prosecuted.
We do live in a country of law and order, despite whatever twitch that causes you to feel. And I work in the most inner of inner city areas in Brooklyn- I am scared to go to work, and I haven’t seen any cops near my hospital for a couple of days now, which is weird.
Long rant, but fk it. We should all stand together to condemn these cops’ actions, and to prevent it from EVER happening again. But don’t sit there and tell me I’m against the protest if I think the mangling of this society by these riots is detestable and – yes – we need MORE police, national guard, etc. so that we can get back to society.
If I had one wish, Twitter would go off-air indefinitely, and we start to realize that 99% of us have similar wants, needs, and philosophies – we CAN work together – and the foaming at the mouth 1% would just go to whatever hole they lived in before they had a mouthpiece.
“I don’t even want to respond to Bob as he’s just the worst sort of twisted apologist for what is a shit stain on our country, but Trump did not specifically call out the looters as thugs.”
You wanna know what hypocrisy is? Try advocating nullifying Federal Law for years and then being surprised when a large swath of the populace believes it can disregard ANY law it cares to and you end up with anarchy.
The chickens have come home to roost to quote one of my favorite philosophers….. enjoy your city……
“Thug” is number one with a bullet on the “racist dog whistle word” top 40. It’s a long-running #1 too.
Oh but of course Trump and Stephen Goebbels didn’t mean it that way. That’s all just some liberal snowflake shit. I mean the great man who is president would never do something such as use racially loaded language for political gain. Oh no. He’s a much better man than that, amirite?
My 2 cents is the following:
1- Everyone should be appalled at what happened to George Floyd
2- The way the police is recruited, trained, managed, and overseen needs overhaul
3- Most cops are probably (yes, I said probably) good, decent, or not bad people.
4- Trump is not a good man.
5- The response to the killing should be different. Peaceful protests are fine. I don’t care if people go down to wall street and lay down to keep the economy from running, they deserve to. But this video I literally just got of a forklift tearing down a Target? DC on fire? Rodeo Drive broken? Peaceful citizens hurt? Cops killed? Macy’s and the rest of NYC looted? No cops in sight in NYC, probably because they don’t want to risk their lives and careers for a public that hates them? So-
6. There should absolutely be policing going on right now. Looters, rioters, anarchists, people who want to assault and beat people who are defending their lives and property should be found, arrested, and prosecuted.
We do live in a country of law and order, despite whatever twitch that causes you to feel. And I work in the most inner of inner city areas in Brooklyn- I am scared to go to work, and I haven’t seen any cops near my hospital for a couple of days now, which is weird.
I agree with every word of this message…..
If I’m understanding this discharge of Fox News Brain correctly, there are protestors acting badly because of New York City’s policy regarding local law enforcement’s cooperation with federal immigration authorities.
It must be so, so exhausting to pretend to be this stupid if you aren’t actually this stupid.
Seems like a lot of the looting in Los Angeles at least is being done by coordinated and organized groups. There’s a stew of legit protestors, agitators, anarchists and regular old thieves out there on the streets. Presumably from across the ideological spectrum.
This is what happens though when cops fuck up over and over again and nobody ever gets held accountable. Eventually you spark a revolt that’s too big to contain and opportunists take advantage. Maybe try not being murderous power-abusing cunts for a period of time and see how that goes, and you won’t create opportunities for people to loot the Target.
And if you hate this country so much, and think it’s for some reason BASED on racism, and that because I’m white, I MUST have some DNA that predisposes me to ending Black life, fuck you. You don’t know my life story, but believe me, I am very, very not racist. If you think you need to burn the country down to restart to eliminate the systemic racism that is supposedly ‘everywhere’, then what about the actual racists? Are you just lumping all white people and corporations together to be burned to the ground, and thus not achieving ANYTHING AT ALL? Don’t people realize how counterproductive it is to say “there is so much racism, and every one of you thinks black people are a threat, so we’re going to burn everything down”?
I think if you’re on board with what’s going on, you’re probably part of the problem.
Protest. Vote. PLEASE. But don’t tell me I have to be ok with all this shit because I’m not. Especially not when it DETRACTS FROM THE FUCKING MESSAGE.
Sorry, had to rant, and scream. My sincere apologies. Needed an outlet. My mask is really painful too, it’s been a long time, my patients seem to be acutely aware of my whiteness, and I hate everything about everything in the last 3.5 months
“I would guess the conversation inside the White House went something like this:
“Mr. President, maybe we should postpone the photo op, there’s a ton of protestors out there and we could just do it another time”
Trump: ” Hell no, do you know they’re making fun of me for holing up in a bunker? Fuck the protesters, do what it takes to get them off the street. No one tells me what to do!”
“(sigh) whatever you say Mr. President”
So you are saying the President of the United States doesn’t have the right to move around the capital whenever he pleases? Duly noted. Or maybe he SHOULD kowtow to protesters? Sorry I don’t agree.
I hate this statement so much. You’re blaming cops, who are basically ‘murderous power-abusing cunts’, for creating the opportunity to loot a Target? Are you freaking kidding me? This country is so, so broken.
Dolan’s hiring of black people is based on a psychological urge I’ve already taken a stab at explaining and that urge is premised on their status as black people. I’ll leave it to others to decide whether that’s racist.
The killing of George Floyd was awful and the story of him calling for his mother when he realized his doom and his fate was heartbreaking. It’s another in a long line that soil the country’s history and are properly and honorably protested.
Beyond that, the events and the actions following the murder, and their meaning, are too complicated to distill into a format suitable for internet message boards and social media, and those forms and the critical methods they foster are insufficient to the task of analysis, so I won’t bother. I will say that those communications vehicles are meant to do something other than analyze and deliberate and to foster analysis and deliberation. Keep in mind that there are very valuable businesses — extremely valuable businesses — who make their money from stoking perpetual outrage, hitting our brains with drug-like tidbits that tap into the outrage chambers, and that favor the loud, the quick, and the obnoxious. Those businesses have become a clear and present danger to the country.
Well it’s easy for you to say, wetbandit, because you’re not the one getting abused by piece of shit cops.
Fuck you. You’re a dick. If you look up “white fragility” in the dictionary there’s a picture of your raggedy ass.
Shocking as it may seem, there are people who wish the President had any ability whatsoever to consider the fates of people who aren’t himself.
Anyway, I’m sure you would feel the exact same way if President Obama forcefully dispersed a Tea Party protest because he wanted a picture taken. 100%. For sure. Just ruthless consistency from people like you.
Who built it?
“If I’m understanding this discharge of Fox News Brain correctly, there are protesters acting badly because of New York City’s policy regarding local law enforcement’s cooperation with federal immigration authorities.”
No Vizzini…. the protesters (actual legitimate protesters) aren’t acting badly for the most part…. the THUGS are acting badly as expected. THUGS being defined as violent people especially criminals.
Legitimate protesters don’t burn down storefronts and firebomb police…. Thugs do…. capisce?
It’s not really hard …. even for a lawyer.
What the hell? I took care to call out your statement not your personage.
This. Right here. This communication. This is what’s broken. I hate it. This country is just so broken- look at how we talk to each other. I’m so burned out. I try to help people for a living, trying to help the unfortunate in this shitty hospital and a dick on the internet called me an I don’t know what . I’ll just say it – Life sucks now. I’m so burnt out. Fk everyone
I wonder how much all this gathering and rioting is going to impact Covid-19 cases and deaths.
The sad irony is that more people might die from complications related to extra Covid cases as a result this than from burnt out, badly trained, and racist cops over the next few years.
You went on an unhinged rant denying the very existence of systemic racism in America, and now you’re shocked it rubbed some people the wrong way?
Let me ask you, what efforts have you made to see the point of view of people who say racism is deeply embedded in American society, as opposed to just being a problem we encounter from a few individuals?
I don’t like you because you seem to be really preoccupied with making sure nobody says anything bad about white people. The fact that you’re so offended by the 1619 project says a lot about you. Your comments today fit right in with that. We get it, WHITE PEOPLE JUST HAVE IT SO ROUGH.
Thanks for your work at the hospitals but your takes are lame.
Thank you, wetbandit, for trying to help people for a living. I believe you do that, and you do that to the best of your abilities.
A way to help un-break this country is to acknowledge that it is broken and where it is broken. You’ve stated here that you don’t believe this country is founded on racism, which is wrong, and you are now complaining about the effects that thoughts like that have on a population that knows the truth through centuries of experience.
“Anyway, I’m sure you would feel the exact same way if President Obama forcefully dispersed a Tea Party protest because he wanted a picture taken. 100%. For sure. Just ruthless consistency from people like you.”
This is so where you suffer from epic cluelessness. With the exception of the tax code, I try to follow the law as best I can. If President Obama was trying to go from point A to Point B for whatever reason and the secret service told a crowd of Tea Party people to move, they had best fucking move tout de suite.
Unlike you, I believe in the law. That doesn’t mean I agree with every one on the books, but individuals don’t get to pick and choose. Once that process begins it necessarily ends up in anarchy and a shit storm. There is a legislative remedy for such things and work to elect people who agree with your POV.
Democracy can’t function without the consent of the governed.
That’s exactly my point. Perfect example. We weren’t taught to talk to each other this way and other than people younger than maybe like 20, every single person here has firsthand experience with a way of talking to each other and a way of politics and politicking that was completely different than this. (And, needless to say, far superior.)
No, this is learned behavior, behavior we have been conditioned to engage in by companies like Twitter and Facebook who have made billions of dollars from the behavior in which they have conditioned us and encouraged us to engage. This is not our natural state; this is our induced state. We are the rats scientists experiment on, like the ones they give the cocaine clicker to by way of seeing how bad the addiction can get. The results of the experiment are now clear. We cannot continue to function if this process of perpetual inducement to outrage continues as it is today. I have no idea how to change this, beyond things like banning Twitter and Facebook, which can’t be done. But we are in just a terrible place now and the reasons are pretty clear.
yeah, it’s going to be hard to ever forget the year 2020…hopefully it brings change for the better…i know i need to pay a lot closer attention to the people and measures on these ballots…
i can feel what you are saying…pretty hard to see the whole forest when you’re busy trying to save one tree at a time…sometimes just taking it one day at a time doesn’t even work…keep yourself healthy and strong bandit…
i know we’re accountable for our thoughts and words…personally, i think a person’s actions are much more telling of their nature…
You have literally said on this very board that America was not founded on racist principles, which is, I assure you, racist. You might not say the n-word, and you might have black friends, and you might be polite and kind to your POC patients, but whitewashing history by denying the systematic oppression of black people in North America since 1619 is…. racist.
Right. If you’re down with cops killing citizens with impunity, you’re probably part of the problem. Yet let’s wring our hands about this kind of lawlessness — rioting, looting — while ignoring that it wouldn’t exist without the lawlessness of the very people appointed to carry out the execution of the law/em>.
Twitter, Facebook, blah blah, ignorant takes are ignorant, period. I’m not really in the mood to be polite to “this country wasn’t built on slavery” white fragility bullshit today, and probably not ever again. Calling out that bullshit forcefully is important.
Why don’t you go ahead and google “lynching of black Americans” and tell me how many of those gatherings were organized through social media platforms.
This shit has deep roots.
The country was not founded on racism. Racism existed at its founding, and it made the hideously poor decision to compromise with the slave states, but it was not founded on racism.
After its founding, racism continued to exist, including in its state-sponsored form in the same states with whom the founders shouldn’t have compromised and those decisions are still with us, and there are still racists and racist policemen to this day.
But the country wasn’t founded on racism. We probably couldn’t have even gotten this much of the racism out of it — most, but not all — if not for the institutions and principles on which it was actually founded.
“I don’t like you because you seem to be really preoccupied with making sure nobody says anything bad about white people.”
Just out of curiosity, why should anyone say bad things about white people or black people or yellow people or some other amorphous group or whatever. Is it impossible for you to judge people as individuals and not of members of a group?
If they’d had social media back then, the lynchings would have been far more prevalent. Probably would have wound up in flat-out genocide. Social media is a tool that would have enhanced those attitudes and made the lynchings even easier to organize. (*) Every time a black guy looked the wrong way at a white woman, it would have been posted to Twitter. Lies about it happening would have been posted to Twitter. What would have happened after that is obvious.
But more to the point I was making, this exchange is yet another example. I wrote something, you used it as a jumping-off point to chide me for, instead, not expressing outrage about something unrelated to my point.
(*) Just as Twitter is making it easier to organize looting locales.
Well now we’re into a semantic debate about what “founded on racism” means but human chattel slavery was a preeeeettty significant part of this country’s development and that should be awfully fucking obvious.
Yeah, well, Stay At Home isn’t trending anymore so now it’s ok to ignore Dr Fauci, the CDC, and the imperial college report that said 2,000,000 people will die if we don’t avoid mass gatherings.
When Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and Trayvon Martin and Philando Castile and Botham Jean get treated as individuals and not as members of a group then I’m all in.
Until then the “I don’t see colors” shit doesn’t fly.
i missed your words E, glad to see you back…i disagree though about adversarial engagement not being a part of who we are as a species…i think it is definitely a part of our core…shit, just pick any random day of the year and read our posts…it’s in our nature to fight and compete…it’s so sad that so little has changed since rodney king and ’91…
the trick is, how do we transcend…how do we develop systems that protect us from what we are…
genocide and slavery is still alive and well in the world today – and hell, most of that ain’t even about the color of someone’s skin…
It’s going to be horrible and it’s going to undo a lot of the hard social distancing work we’ve done. Many will die. I expect to see massive spikes very soon.
So the condition that black people could be kept as slaves, by threat of violence, was not racist.
So the condition that black people could not vote until 1868 was not racist.
So the condition that black people could not testify in a court of law until the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment was not racist.
So the use of law enforcement and militia groups to seize black bodies and trade or transport them to white owners, even after the abolition of slavery, was not racist.
Got it.
I mean, motherfucker, please: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford
How could you possibly argue that this country was not founded on racist principles?
“[Black people] are not included, and were not intended to be included, under the word ‘citizens’ in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States.
On the contrary, they were at that time [of America’s founding] considered as a subordinate and inferior class of beings who had been subjugated by the dominant race, and, whether emancipated or not, yet remained subject to their authority, and had no rights or privileges but such as those who held the power and the Government might choose to grant them.” – Chief Justice Roger Taney, writing on behalf of the United States Judiciary’s highest court, March, 1857
SPIN IT, PLEASE
They were racist, but they weren’t the principles on which the country was founded. The country wasn’t founded so that black people couldn’t vote anymore than it was founded so that women couldn’t vote or that people under 21 couldn’t vote. Those were things present at the founding, but were not the reasons for the founding.
Another example where you’re inviting me to be outraged about those things, and I’m happy to agree they’re outrageous, but I’m making an actual point unrelated to the expression of outrage. I’m outraged about slavery, I’m outraged about Jim Crow, I’m outraged by a lot of things in our history, but I’m making a different point. My outrage doesn’t make true things false, or false things true. They’re different things.
EDIT: I’m outraged about Roger Taney’s infamous Dred Scott decision ….
This thread is like a textbook example of white fragility, the inability of some white folks to confront the issue of racism.
I don’t really know how you fix anything when you have otherwise intelligent people who are making the argument “this country wasn’t founded on racism” with a straight face. It’s 2020 and the country is on fire and this kind of attitude is a serious problem.
This is why I didn’t really want to engage on the substance, for the reasons I laid out in my initial posts, and it was a mistake for me to dip my toes in. I’m done. Carry on with the outrage, I’ll hang up and listen.
Not only do you love to move the goalposts, but you are also speaking contrary to historical consensus. The Somerset v. Stewart (1772) English common-law ruling established grounds for the abolition of slavery in England, leaving the status of the institution in the greater empire up for debate, which in turn agitated Southern colonists to protect their chattel via secession.
So yeah, you can talk about the Boston Tea Party all you want, but the British judiciary set conditions that would later ban the practice outright, which in turn galvanized Southern colonies toward revolution.
And again, the Dred Scott decision means that the United States Government endorsed a view of citizenship predicated on the proto-Originalist argument that people of African descent were never intended to be protected under the Constitution of the United Fucking States of America.
WHICH IS FUCKING RACISM
Wow. Ok I’m out. I’m so out.
you are most definitely not alone in feeling that…try to stay positive, understand your role and how you can help – tomorrow, today, the next hour, the next moment…
there is so much beauty in this world – disconnect and go and find it…
Because you’re acknowledging that your opinion is historically inaccurate, or because you think this is an opinion you’re entitled to carry as though it were based on fact?
I will say that I did enjoy expressing a socio-cultural hypothesis about our times and modern media and then seeing it case-study proven to a virtual “T” within like half an hour. Totally unexpected development to be sure, but nice. Leads me to think the hypothesis isn’t too far off.
Still fingers-crossed for Dolan to say something stupid. Cautious optimism, though unlikely. Doesn’t matter whether he’s a racist, he still might say something racist.
Do you think we’re not familiar with the term “troll?”
No… because I was called a racist too many times for daring to have a different opinion than you. This is how you shut down debate. I can’t do it. Not today.
Then stop being a racist who creates fictitious histories of America.
***They were racist, but they weren’t the principles on which the country was founded. The country wasn’t founded so that black people couldn’t vote anymore than it was founded so that women couldn’t vote or that people under 21 couldn’t vote. Those were things present at the founding, but were not the reasons for the founding.***
The first line of our first national document was:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Written by a man who owned slaves.
He was writing about white people, and only white people. It couldn’t be more clear. This is THE principle the country was founded on. And it’s taken 245 years to try to dig out from under that.
“Unexpected.”
One last thing and I go – this site is awesome. But it has a distinct political bent – this part is fine- but is completely intolerant of other people’s opinions. It’s probably a sign of the youth of today, and I’m a young guy, but it’s absolutely, incredibly, and let me say it clearly now, abhorrent. And the site creators are probably fine with it, and it’s their right, but man, does it fuck up an otherwise great site.
Because you’re acknowledging that your opinion is historically inaccurate, or because you think this is an opinion you’re entitled to carry as though it were based on fact?
No… because I was called a racist too many times for daring to have a different opinion than you.
because you think this is an opinion you’re entitled to carry as though it were based on fact?
a different opinion than you
an opinion you’re entitled to
opinion
How about this opinion? The sun is an enormous radiant space heater (made in America, by a shadowy shell company funded by the CIA) placed in the sky 30 years ago after the original one died, located approximately 3,000 feet above the flat earth that was created 6,000 years ago by the sun god RZA. And birds are robots planted by the Chinese government to spy on us.
Respect my opinion.
I mean you’re free to keep your wack political opinions to yourself and keep it strictly b-ball but the people here are too intelligent and opinionated to let “1619 project sux why is errbody so mean to white people” go without commenting on its inherent wackness.
Not founded on racism?
Got talk to a few Native Americans on a reservation…see what they have to tell you…..
“When Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and Trayvon Martin and Philando Castile and Botham Jean get treated as individuals and not as members of a group then I’m all in.
Until then the “I don’t see colors” shit doesn’t fly.”
The Floyd case will get its day in court and the others went through or are going through the process. If you don’t like the out come of those processes, why don’t you criticize those responsible for overseeing the police in Hennepin County for the past decades. You know….. AG Ellison, Former AG Klobacher, former US AG Susan Rice and former USAG Eric Holder?????
You realize that Mr Castile was shot by a brown man and acquitted. Mr. Martin was shot by a half brown/half white man and was acquitted. Ms. Taylor was shot in a hail of gunfire after her boyfriend opened fire on officers executing a no-knock warrant.
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/26/745731839/new-study-says-white-police-officers-are-not-more-likely-to-shoot-minority-suspe
Cliff’s Notes:
JOSEPH CESARIO: The race of a police officer did not predict the race of the citizen shot. In other words, black officers were just as likely to shoot black citizens as white officers were.
Free your mind….. your ass will follow
Do the courts serve justice equally and impartially?
Having an opinion is one thing. Making up your own facts to comfort yourself in your opinion is something else.
I mean come on the Three Fifths compromise is in the actual Constitution. Slaves were not considered a whole person…in the Constitution. You can’t go and say racism isn’t a part of the founding of America when the founding document of America has explicit racist language.
To me the very fact that this discussion is about race when 1 cop was white, 1 Asian, and 2 either Latino or some combination of black/brown (not sure) and they all participated in kneeling on him and all looked the other way when it got extreme shows how screwed up people are.
This particular case had very little to do with his race. It had to do with poorly trained, angry, power hungry, burnt out cops abusing their position on a man that happened to be black.
The same shit happens to whites, Asians, Hispanics, Middle Eastern etc.. in every combination possible. The data controlled for demographics and crime in the area is out there.
That racism is sometimes part of it is unquestioned by anyone! But the very premise of the debate today is wrong and so are the protests, violence, and looting unless you are protesting the very general poor policing problem we have in the US because this case was not about race.
I agree 100%. I like having diverse opinions on the site. Too many posters are being forced out for not being what other posters consider PC. Also, people often aren’t reading what other people write, instead they just assume certain people must be wrong and insult them personally.
For the record, I think the US was founded mostly as a tax revolt, not in order to protect slavery even though many slave owners were in favor of revolting because of their own interest in maintaining slave holdings.
Hahahah, this is some real Boomer shit.
How come it’s never a white guy getting choked out on the street, begging for his life, crying for his momma and desperately crying “I can’t breathe?”
Kinda always seems like it’s a black guy. Weird coincidence.
See, I don’t get it. “This site is awesome”, except that it’s political views “fuck up an otherwise great site”?
The site is an opinion site generated entirely by the community. There aren’t even original pieces written for it anymore. It is nothing but posters posting their opinion.
And we are educated, and intelligent, and, more often than not, right about basketball and the Knicks. But none of us are professional basketball pundits. So what’s the point of telling us to “stay in our lane”, or “stick to basketball”. Many of us are experts in diverse fields. Why shouldn’t we come together and discuss things unrelated to basketball? And when we do, it shouldn’t be too hard to imagine we are going to agree. Stupid basketball moves get shit on here, stupid governmental moves get shit on here. People with opinions that are valid are celebrated, and people with opinions that are base, oblivious, and are wrought with hypocrisy are dismissed.
You beat me to it. The displacing (that’s a “nice” word) of Native Americans seems to have been pretty essential to the founding of the US, or at least to the expanding of it (see the Trail of Tears, for example).
you leave Farfa alone, you swine
Who the fuck is forced out? Maybe reub but he was a colossal asshole. If you’re reading, fuck you, reub.
Nobody else is “forced out” of anything. I hear a lot of whining when people’s opinions get challenged, but forced out? Nah fam. Nah. Put on the big boy pants already.
I can at least respect bobneptune at some level because he doesn’t cry about it when somebody challenges his dumb ass opinions.
Exasperating right? Now imagine if you were black.
Wait, so your position is that because the cops weren’t all white that it wasn’t about race?
As if the dehumanization and criminalization of black people hasn’t been a thing for centuries in this country?
You must not realize why Amy Cooper said she was going to call the cops and tell them an African American man was threatening her. And why he left before the cops came when he did nothing wrong and she was breaking the law.
““We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Written by a man who owned slaves.”
OK…. it all sux because it was written by old racist white guys on dead animal skins. Got it.
The Founders were also the GOAT of political theorists. They were of their time and imperfect. America paid its dues in blood 1861-5 and it took another 100 years for a semblance of justice to prevail. Everyone acknolowedges this.
Look, the colonies were established
Stop moving goalposts.
He didn’t say is all sux… The point mentioned in this case is that racism has been embedded in America since its founding. If that’s not the point you’re arguing (for or against), what exactly are you railing against?
“I can at least respect bobneptune at some level because he doesn’t cry about it when somebody challenges his dumb ass opinions.”
That is simply because I never hold any dumb assed opinions…..
I must admit I do enjoy a nice verbal joust. But really some of you fellas need to “tape an aspirin” to it and stop sniveling under assault .
Also, what constitutes a post in need of moderation?
Broken record, but that intolerance is a direct result of Twitter and social media. It’s a little more subtle than old-school intolerance, though; a big part of it is the manner of how one gets attention on Twitter. Coin of the realm on Twitter, et al. isn’t to debate; it’s to self-validate through the very act of expression.
It’s a little weird, right? We’re not really debating here in any true sense. We’re talking and we’re a group, but it’s more like we’re talking with each other than to each other. But the real coin of the realm is self-validation — “I’m outraged.” To the extent there’s any debating, it isn’t over substance but instead about why the “other side” isn’t also outraged. Even if you agree — “Yes, I’m outraged” — it still isn’t enough. You must accept every iteration of the ever-growing outrage, in precisely the form in which it’s expressed. Anything else is unsatisfactory.
I have to go to a meeting so this might not work, but there’s probably some valid analogy with a bunch of kids hanging out together but all independently looking at their phones that illuminates all this.
I think bobneptune pretends to be this stupid, but Strat is legitimately this stupid. I don’t know which variant of reactionary is more infuriating to deal with.
Anyway, Black people make up 13.4% of the American population and 23.4% of those killed in police shootings (Statista 2019, US Census Bureau). Just a bunch of wild coincidences huh?
To be clear, what is being requested is a literal safe space for conservatives. They want to be able to air their views here (totally allowed) without being criticized (hell no).
I don’t ever want to hear “liberal PC college campus culture blah blah blah snowflakes” from any of you again. You’re showing your true colors–you are completely fine with policing speech as long as that speech is critical of conservative points of view.
“Stop moving goalposts.
He didn’t say is all sux… The point mentioned in this case is that racism has been embedded in America since its founding. If that’s not the point you’re arguing (for or against), what exactly are you railing against?”
I wasn’t responding to you ego boy…. I was making a general statement in response to Donnie Walsh
>>How come it’s never a white guy getting choked out on the street, begging for his life, crying for his momma and desperately crying “I can’t breathe?”
Kinda always seems like it’s a black guy. Weird coincidence.<<<
The data is out there on police shootings, complaints against police, crime rates, demographics of police, demographics of community etc.. It all has to be controlled for crime in the area and race of cops to understand when it's race and when it's not.
People like thenoblefacehumper are too foolish to understand that. He's still looking at the BPM and WS48 stats of this issue. lmao
Generally though, white people (especially in the media) don't care much if some redneck with a few missing teeth, illegal guns, and a bourbon still in his backyard gave some troopers a tough time and they knocked the rest of teeth out. They don't even care if the police dumped his body in a ditch or shot him in the back when he started to run. White liberals hate that guy. Pretty much no one cares about that guy at all. His own family probably thinks he was an asshole and deserved it. lol
Can you cite an example of “intolerance” in this thread? Because someone (e.g. bobneptune or Strat) saying something, and then having it responded to with factual information as to why it’s false is not “intolerance.”
“The Honorable Cock Jowles
June 2, 2020 at 3:28 pm
The Floyd case will get its day in court
Do the courts serve justice equally and impartially?”
Oooooooh…. a tarp! I’m not sure but I’ll have to consult OJ on this one. I’m pretty sure you have a better chance of acquittal if you have access to lots of money?
I am pretty confident this fellow will be convicted…. the question is of what and that depends on the final disposition of the coroner’s report.
I really hope the other three dicks who stood idly by while the life was ebbing out of Mr. Floyd get the maximum allowable because their actions were sub human. An example needs to be set for other police officer that standing idly by when murder is being committed is defacto culpability.
Yeah, you see, when an unarmed Black person is murdered by cops, it’s actually okay if other Black people, unbeknownst to the murder victim, may have committed crimes in the general vicinity.
This is the kind of nuance you can only learn through watching a lot of horse racing!
Give Thomas Jefferson a little more credit people. He didn’t just own slaves, he fathered them too.
You know what, Strat? I’mma try hard to be nice to you here.
A man got a knee put to his neck for nine minutes, he begged for his life and cried out for his momma and they kept the knee on him for three full minutes after he stopped crying out and it was tragic and awful and a clear example of how police simply do not value the lives of people of color. He was subdued and posed no threat and they (yes THEY) had no regard for his safety. He died a painful and agonizing death. This apparently doesn’t mean shit to you, and you’re content to piss on his grave by telling us his race had nothing to do with it. I’m embarrassed for you. You are absolutely humiliating yourself on this thread and you should stop.
So don’t tell me about the hypothetical redneck getting his teeth knocked out and the hypocrite libs not caring about it. That is an affront to decency. An actual man died in a horrific and brutal way. Nobody gives a fuck about your idiotic hypothetical situation. Show some fucking respect. You’re better than this.
>I really hope the other three dicks who stood idly by while the life was ebbing out of Mr. Floyd get the maximum allowable because their actions were sub human.<
There is video of at least 3 kneeling on him at the same time. I saw it. So they were not standing idly by. They were active participants. Even during the most damning part of the video when 2 of the cops are not visible, Floyd was begging, and the Asian one is standing idly by, they other 2 may have still been kneeling on is lower body for part of that time. We just don't have the correct angle to see it. Either way, those other cops were active and there is video of it. Only the white guy has been charged so far because his actions were far and away the worst and there is a lot of video of him, but the others are unlikely to get away with what they DID DO because it's on video.
Talking out yer ass again Strat. Look up the Daniel Shaver shooting. Many of the people who called for the cops to be held accountable for his murder are the same people who want the cops to be held accountable for Floyd’s murder (full disclosure: I’m one of them). ‘White liberals’ also made a big deal about cops murdering Kelly Thomas and a bunch of other white people. This shit was all widely reported in the media.
Get it together man.
I said right there in the part you quoted that it’s a bit different than pure “intolerance,” and I tried to at least try to sketch out the thesis.
Essentially, it’s that attempts to analyze actual words and history and the like are met with “Yeah, but I’m really outraged by the US’s racial history” followed by “If you’re not outraged, too, in exactly the same form, you’re fragile/part of the problem/an enabler/whatever.” The outraged person isn’t really debating, but instead seeking validation of his outrage, as well as the self-validating act of expressing it to other people. There’s probably a better word than “intolerance” for it all; it’s not as much that the intolerance runs to the opinion, but instead the perceived rejection of the emotion.
It puts other people in kind of an unfair position, too, in that by arguing against the outrage-expressor, they’re naturally going to be seen as arguing against the validity of the emotion. There’s more than a little emotional manipulation there, to be sure.
>>How come it’s never a white guy getting choked out on the street, begging for his life, crying for his momma and desperately crying “I can’t breathe?”>>>
I do know of four friends of mine who were beaten by TA police on a platform at Penn Station and then were taken into a holding cell in Penn Station and beaten with night sticks while handcuffed to a pipe defenseless til they needed 5 days in the hospital. Then they found they were charged with assaulting the TA cops.
Interestingly and coincidentally enough both cameras on the platform and in the holding cell “malfunctioned” that day. Imagine that!
I know because I had to loan one of the guys $10,000 to hire Marvin Kornberg (a friend from the horse business) to pick up the phone to keep him out of jail.
All four cops are going to be prosecuted. At least that was the statement today.
That’s horrible, and another data point to suggest that way too many cops are violent pieces of corrupt shit, and the whole system needs massive reform.
How many of them died of asphyxiation while begging for their lives? Right on camera, with a crowd of bystanders watching? Lemme guess, none?
>This apparently doesn’t mean shit to you, and you’re content to piss on his grave by telling us his race had nothing to do with it. I’m embarrassed for you. You are absolutely humiliating yourself on this thread and you should stop.<
I'm trying to be nice too and have a great deal of sympathy for the victim.
You can't humiliate yourself by telling the truth.
The national statistics "when properly controlled for crime in the area and demographics" are what they are. I didn't calculate it, but you have to look at the controlled data.
We may not see lots of cases of the police doing things like this to white people on TV, but they do exist in large numbers also.
I was also pointing out that 1 of the cops is white, 1 Asian, and 2 look like Latinos, light skinned blacks or some combination of brown. That's not exactly a group of cops that are likely to be members of the KKK. All 4 are horrible cops guilty of various degrees of crimes, but it's hard to scream racism when it was a multi cultural group of cops all guilty of the crime. They are just fucked up cops and the victim in this case was black .
TNFH,
I consider the personal insults and ad hominem attacks to be intolerant. They are all too common recently.
Owen
June 2, 2020 at 4:13 pm
Give Thomas Jefferson a little more credit people. He didn’t just own slaves, he fathered them too.
Per KnickfaninNJ’s logic, slave owners couldn’t have been racist because they chose blacks for jobs at the highest level, like Thomas and virtually all others.
Strat, you are assuming that because someone is not white that they can’t be racist towards other non-whites. That isn’t the case at all.
Mike chose certain keywords in the past to make a post go to moderation. I honestly don’t know the words. The most common one (and the one that trips people up the most) appears to be “criminal.” We must have had a troll years ago who kept calling things criminal or something like that.
“That’s horrible, and another data point to suggest that way too many cops are violent pieces of corrupt shit, and the whole system needs massive reform.”
Anyone who violates the law needs to receive swift and sure justice. Assuming they are guilty giving long jail terms will give the next guy pause. Guys who have multiple complaints (legitimate) should be fired before that can snap.
The police departments/unions need to be serious about this sort of stuff.
By the way, am I reading this correctly that strat is saying he wasn’t that other poster, when he obviously was?
Don’t lie about that, strat, it is just silly. I assumed you were just switching names up. People do that. I wasn’t begrudging the new name, but to deny it is just silly.
To feign anger over people correctly noting that it was you under a different screen name… that’s a bit more objectionable.
Z, you are putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say. I did say that I didn’t take Dolan’s letter as evidence he was racist. I also said that he hired an all black front office and that unless there was evidence other than the letter that he is racist, I personally doubt he is.
I don’t doubt most slave owners were racist no matter who they used as an overseer, because the old south was clearly a racist culture.
>Strat, you are assuming that because someone is not white that they can’t be racist towards other non-whites. That isn’t the case at all.<
I wasn't clear enough. I'm saying it's less suggestive of "white" racism and racism in general especially because I think one them IS black or at least partially black. There is also no other evidence of racism in their words that typically goes hand in hand with a racist act. It certainly possible that 1 white, 1 Asian, 1 Hispanic, and 1 black or part black cop only did this because the victim was black, but that's a pretty rough assumption unless you are biased towards that view.
Never responded to my question about Donald Sterling. Was he a racist? Elgin Baylor was his sole GM for 22 years.
Baby Mario must be feeling the heat as he scapegoats de Blasio and the NYPD:
I must admit some Onanistic pleasure watching the rats turn on each other…….
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/02/cuomo-urges-de-blasio-to-use-more-cops-against-looters-after-nyc-protests.html
Oh no Strat, that’s gonna do some damage…
I got busted in Central Park in 2008 on my 36th birthday, for smoking a joint. This is at the height of stop-and-frisk. The two plainclothes white cops came up to me, politely asked me where the weed was at, and I handed them the roach in my pocket. They did not search my backpack, which had a quarter ounce of weed in it.
Instead of hauling me into jail, they wrote me a “desk ticket,” which meant I would be able to walk free when they were done, but I’d have to return to the city to appear in court. I am not kidding, one of them literally said “stay out of trouble, kid” and they sent me on my way. They didn’t tousle my hair but they might as well have.
I didn’t even have to go to court to deal with the case because I hired a lawyer who went in my place, and the cops didn’t show up and didn’t even bother to fill out the paperwork correctly so the whole thing was thrown out. Years later I got a check in the mail for $600 as part of the city’s “stop and frisk” settlement.
The cops just wanted an arrest statistic to add to their record, and hey, I was breaking the law, so fair enough. But does anybody believe for one fucking second that the situation would have played out that way if I wasn’t a dorky white guy in Buddy Holly glasses? Is there any doubt to any of you that I would have had my ass hauled off to the dungeon in a rather unfriendly manner if I happened to be black?
This is WHITE PRIVILEGE. It exists. It is real. I have seen it firsthand and benefited from it. If I tried to pass a counterfeit $20 I wouldn’t end up dead in the street, that absolutely would not happen.
Exactly this — the whole system needs major reform. There were red flags galore about this shithead, and his right to carry a gun and police society with force should have been taken away years ago. It’s inexplicable that it wasn’t. Start there.
There really should be a zero-tolerance policy for any misplaced violence by a cop. One time, you lose your gun. You can maybe stay in your job, but you’re right to use gun and force against a citizen is gone for good. Then add something like yearly psych tests administered by a honestly-unbiased administrator and if things aren’t up to snuff on that, no more gun and force.
:sigh:
I’m sure you missed it because the comment was stuck in moderation for a while but here.
Also, do you know how a lot of neighborhoods, demographics and economic opportunities in a city were created? There was a whole institution of racist practices that prevented black people from getting loans at the same rates as whites. Redlining is not a myth and the impact of decades and decades of such policies can not be understated. Because the downstream effects of such practices are extremely damaging.
bobneptune
June 2, 2020 at 4:42 pm
“That’s horrible, and another data point to suggest that way too many cops are violent pieces of corrupt shit, and the whole system needs massive reform.”
Anyone who violates the law needs to receive swift and sure justice. Assuming they are guilty giving long jail terms will give the next guy pause. Guys who have multiple complaints (legitimate) should be fired before that can snap.
*
This is true, and something we can agree on, but first there needs to be trust from the people that the law is going to be enforced equally, and justice is going to be executed blindly.
And that can’t happen until we have an economic and political system that creates at least a pathway toward an equality of conditions.
It’s so easy for older white men to say “I believe in the rule of law, and if you break the law you should get swift punishment”. But in reality, blacks make up 14% of the US population, but 34% of the US prison population. If you see the discrepancy as being unjust, then stop with the “anyone who violates the law needs to receive swift and sure justice” talk. And, If you don’t see the discrepancy as being unjust, and you think blacks are 250% more criminal than non-blacks, then you are a racist.
Brian,
I took on the RobertLockwoodJr ID hoping for a fresh start. I thought it was pretty obvious it was me because the musicians here know I am a blues fan and probably recognize that name. But the pinhead with whom I often argue (thenoblefacehumper) accused me of being “Native NYer” in his attack on that person’s post above and that is 100% NOT ME.
bobneptune
June 2, 2020 at 4:42 pm
“That’s horrible, and another data point to suggest that way too many cops are violent pieces of corrupt shit, and the whole system needs massive reform.”
Anyone who violates the law needs to receive swift and sure justice. Assuming they are guilty giving long jail terms will give the next guy pause. Guys who have multiple complaints (legitimate) should be fired before that can snap.
*
This is true, and something we can agree on, but first there needs to be trust from the people that the law is going to be enforced equally, and justice is going to be executed blindly.
And that can’t happen until we have an economic and political system that creates at least a pathway toward an equality of conditions.
It’s so easy for older white men to say “I believe in the rule of law, and if you break the law you should get swift punishment”. But in reality, blacks make up 14% of the US population, but 34% of the US prison population. If you see the discrepancy as being unjust, then stop with the “anyone who violates the law needs to receive swift and sure justice” talk. And, If you don’t see the discrepancy as being unjust, and you think blacks are 250% more likely to violate the law simply because they are black, then you are a racist.
If that was the only information I had about Donald Sterling’s character I wouldn’t assume he was a racist. I would probably lean the other way. Of course now we have much more information and I do believe him racist, despite him hiring Elgin Baylor.
Brian,
If you can check the IP address or anything else to verify that please do. It will prove that I am telling the truth.
On my mother’s life “Native NYer” was not me and I am pissed off at thenoblefacehumper because I think he’s a know nothing prick that was attacking me for someone else’s post. And to be honest I’m not so thrilled that you are saying the same thing even though it’s not true.
Fair enough, Strat, that’s correct, you only had the one screen name change.
I think it’s a bit unreasonable to be that offended that someone would think you’re using a second different screen name when you were already using an other different screen name (remember how many reub went through?), but that’s correct. You are not that Native NYer poster.
Strat’s reactions to things:
-Watching a man slowly get asphyxiated to death by those sworn to serve and protect him: well you see, it’s very complicated. You need to look at crime rates in the area.
-Getting incorrectly accused of making a post on a New York Knicks based internet forum: MOTHERFUCKER I AM COMING FOR YOUR THROAT.
I’d really like to see some enforcement against low level violations by police as well. It’s not the same as kneeling on a man’s neck until he dies but you can’t spend five minutes around cops without seeing them pushing the envelope. Running red lights, parking illegally, placard abuse, covering up badge numbers, turning off personal cameras. A lot of that is trifling shit and obviously in some cases there are exceptions (I don’t expect cops in an emergency to sit at a red light). But in order to earn the right to wield deadly force against your fellow citizens you should be held to the absolutely highest standard and instead we have a police culture in this country that largely treats them as above the law.
It had a better chance of being class privilege.(*)
I mean, let’s face it, if George Floyd had committed his financial crime through something like insider trading in his job as a Goldman analyst, he would have been allowed to surrender himself and quietly booked at the station. That’s the way upper-middle and upper class people rip people off and they rip off way more than $20.
Mr. Floyd ripped his guy off the way lower-middle and lower class people rip people off, and therein lies the main difference.
The racist part is that black people don’t have the same pathways to the classes that surrender themselves when they rip people off, instead of being pursued and cuffed on the street and thrown in the cop car. They have some pathways, but not as many and not all the same types.
America is a massively classist society, and it’s gotten much more so. There’s a stupid, pernicious, status-quo-reinforcing myth that we’re a classless society — a howler for the ages — and this myth gets in the way of fully accurate social/cultural analysis.
(*) And class, not whiteness, is what your invocation of dorkiness and Holly glasses was really aimed at. Those are class signifiers, not race signifiers.
Close but no cigar. Police unions need to be straight-up dissolved. They are one of the biggest obstacles to reform. We already have laws that ban unions among the military. If the cops want to do their lil army cosplay with the tanks and assault rifles then we should start treating them like it.
Cities need stronger civilian complaint review boards. The power to subpoena police documents, forcing cops to testify, etc. Just very basic accountability. Yet police unions will fight it tooth and nail despite not doing anything themselves to hold ‘bad apples’ accountable.
I live in Newark, NJ. The Justice Department mandated us the strongest CCRB in the nation because Newark PD Internal Affairs were found to be woefully inadequate. And it’s been working! Our cops still aren’t perfect, but there’s been a decrease in police brutality and excessive force complaints. Increased transparency and oversight definitely help. Police unions will always fight that.
This is the old “Intentional Fallacy”, written by Wimsatt and Beardsley. We used to have these argument’s all the time in college. It essentially states that the author’s intent is irrelevant, all that matters is the text.
The principle is not racist. The people who wrote it were, as were the people who wrote its laws.
So, founded with racism? Absolutely. And it creeped into every institution and we’ve needed to fix that over the course of our history.
But founded on racism? It’s not in the text.
>I think it’s a bit unreasonable to be that offended that someone would think you’re using a second different screen name when you were already using an other different screen name (remember how many reub went through?), but that’s correct. You are not that Native NYer poster.<
Thank you for clarifying that.
The simple reality is that I think thenoblefacehumper is a know nothing pain in the ass that makes a point of trying to disagree and attack anything I say and making my experience here as unpleasant as possible because my views often run counter to the consensus. This was another example of it and he couldn't even get that much right. It wasn't me.
i have an inherent weakness towards your particular brand of cynicism, you raise some really interesting points on the influence and effect social media is having on us…but, yeah, the answer as to why we engage: to commiserate and self-validate…
ugh strat – how old are you sir – who gives a fuck what any of us think…you got sixty something years of living…outside of family and friends, who gives a fuck what anyone says or thinks…the true end game (outside of “legacy” i guess): ashes to ashes (funk to funky) and all – but, it is not in your health’s best interest to engage on this level…
wet bandit was a little late getting there, but, he got it right: fuck everyone…once you have that established – then you can cautiously let others in…
i know you got shit to say and share…just fire away and find cover, stop standing up in your foxhole…
stop empowering others to hurt you…say what you think and feel, and, let it go…
i think your stress, makes me stress – so, stop stressing strat 🙂
Not true! If you were to say something like “systemic racism is a major problem in America” or “Austrian economics is a bunch of empirically falsified bullshit” or “Phil Jackson was a bad NBA executive” I would back you up wholeheartedly.
We turned cops into heroes after 9/11, in part because they committed great acts of heroism and sacrifice, but it’s boomeranged out of control. Maybe this will be, finally, the pushback that changes things. I for one am long tired of turning every cop and every soldier into some kind of fucking hero and for police forces and the military branches to be the constant source of celebration. That stuff clearly fundamentally changed police attitudes.
“The police departments/unions need to be serious about this sort of stuff.”
It’s an easy thing to say. David Smth was murdered in almost identical fashion in 2010 in Minneapolis – tasered and then kneeled on for 4 minutes. There was a 3 million dollar civil settlement and the City promised to run all its officers through retraining in 2013. They could not confirm whether that training actually happened when asked after the most recent prone restraint fatality.
I know Michael Barbaro is way too liberal but the piece they ran today on The Daily on all the reasons why its basically impossible to try cops in the criminal justice system, from constitutional protections, to union protections, to prosecutorial reluctance, is pretty good.
They had a stat that was pretty amazing. Of 2600 complaints made by the public against Minneapolis police officers since 2012 only 12 resulted in formal discipline.
I think my biggest problem with the conservative take is the blithe assumption that cops are brought to justice when they do stuff like this. It’s incredibly rare and according to many experts unlikely to happen in this case also.
>Also, do you know how a lot of neighborhoods, demographics and economic opportunities in a city were created? There was a whole institution of racist practices that prevented black people from getting loans at the same rates as whites. Redlining is not a myth and the impact of decades and decades of such policies can not be understated. Because the downstream effects of such practices are extremely damaging.<
I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of racism in this country where other people are arguing. I already know how racist this country was and still is.
I am saying 2 simple things.
1. When you control for crime statistics and demographics (most important crime statistics because that's where most stats studies on the subject fail) you'll find that racism in the police force is less frequent than the perception. There are loads of bad cops for sure, but they come in all colors and so do their victims. Whatever the actual racism component of it is, it's a lot lower than the perception.
2. In this case, it's hard to demonstrate racism even though the victim was black because of the ethnic and racial makeup of the 4 cops. Also, to my knowledge no words were used to indicate race was a factor. What's at work is a bias towards thinking it was racism because of the perception about cops in general. These were very bad cops, but not necessarily racist cops.
i’m a big believer in trust yourself first…trust me though – you are wrong…i understand though: no amount of words will help you to see that…and, you know what – that’s okay…you know what you know…
>Not true! If you were to say something like “systemic racism is a major problem in America” or “Austrian economics is a bunch of empirically falsified bullshit” or “Phil Jackson was a bad NBA executive” I would back you up wholeheartedly.<
Bullshit.
You come here looking through my posts trying to find things to attack me for because you are an ass (and a know nothing ass on top of that). You made that clear earlier today.
And you are wrong on 2 of 3 of those things.
>i’m a big believer in trust yourself first…trust me though – you are wrong…i understand though – no amount of words will help you to see that…and, you know what – that’s okay…you know what you know…<
Words won't change my mind. I trust the data when properly controlled for demographics and crime, If the data was different, my opinion would be different. I've looked at quite a few studies. Most are flawed, but there are good ones that control properly. If the data changes, so will my opinion.
the older i get, the less i like being around people – thank god though for all those people out there today doing what’s right…gathering with others to do the work that needs to be done…
shit, i’m just sitting here watching it on tv…getting ready to go to work, thinking about my next meal, worrying about my family…thank god for those whom have the will to take action…
the next ballot i fill out, i’ll try to do a much better time of giving it the effort and focus it truly deserves…
stratomatic:
I don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of racism in this country where other people are arguing.I already know how racist this country was and still is.
I am saying 2 simple things.
1.When you control for crime statistics and demographics (most important crime statistics because that’s where most stats studies on the subject fail) you’ll find that racism in the police force is less frequent than the perception. There are loads of bad cops for sure, but they come in all colors and so do their victims.Whatever the actual racism component of it is, it’s a lot lower than the perception.
2. In this case, it’s hard to demonstrate racism even though the victim was black because of the ethnic and racial makeup of the 4 cops. Also, to my knowledge no words were used to indicate race was a factor. What’s at work is a bias towards thinking it was racism because of the perception about cops in general. These were very bad cops, but not necessarily racist cops.
Suck on this data…https://datausa.io/profile/soc/police-officers
8 of every 10 police officers are white and male..how you can even posit on the above given that data is comedy at best….
Gotta say, this is a good point. No one does anything racist without declaring “I am hereby carrying out this action due to my racism.”
here’s a crazy tidbit for you – our minds are flawed…we are flawed…
what we believe – what we “know”, may not be accurate…our truth – may not be reality at all…
until you accept that, you’ll stay stuck in place…which is 100% your right…but, until you accept that our minds, ourselves aren’t perfect machines with perfect output – any challenge to your paradigm will affect you, negatively…
Sorry, Strat, you’re even wrong about this. Data are plural.
And if you’re wrong about this, then maybe… maybe… ah, never mind.
twice in life i’ve had an injury or illness which significantly compromised my cognitive abilities for a significant period of time…
crazy thing is – when things aren’t working at 100% upstairs – chances are good you won’t even realize it…
the ground you are standing on strat – is just not as solid as you may believe…
OMGGGGGG
I mean the lack of empathy here is really just astounding. It honestly blows my fucking mind that this is the SECOND “I can’t breathe” incident in recent memory, the SECOND time a black man has begged for his life while being slowly choked to death by a white cop and we’re going with “maybe it wasn’t racism” and pretending that’s a valid viewpoint to have.
THIS IS WHY THE SHIT DOES NOT GET SOLVED. This was a fucking outrage. This DOES NOT HAPPEN TO WHITE PEOPLE. There is no white Eric Garner, no white George Floyd begging to be allowed to take a breath while the camera rolls and instead being slowly and painfully asphyxiated.
It’s just completely fucking ghoulish to me to suggest that racism was not involved here. I can’t wrap my head around it. I’m stunned.
I should probably have added that the only cop who has actually gone to prison in Minnesota for this kind of thing (on duty fatality) in decades was a Somali-American cop named Mohamed Noor who killed a white Australian woman. He got 12.5 years.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/us/minneapolis-police-sentencing-mohamed-noor.html
By the way, if you want to argue that non white cops are also biased against black men, that could be true. But that’s obviously a somewhat different thing that the standard white against black racism we are talking about. It’s more likely the result of PTSD and other stress factors and experiences related to their job that all cops go through. The stress of being a cop has to be pretty tough over time. Regular mental health checks and a willingness to take cops off the street when they are burnt out has to be part of the solution even after better recruiting.
who knows the true number – but, there are a large amount of people whom believe that way…that’s why this is happening now and continues to happen…
since i was a kid, i’ve always tried to get people to speak their truth or true feelings – it tough to listen to, but, it’s better to know…
practical to understand and accept you can not easily change the beliefs of others…
sadly, “power” and control are what matter most…
Go Pete Alonso!
Right, but this is a 60s and 70s critical theory position, not one that was adopted by any American jurist in the 18th or 19th century. The fact is that “original intent” has been a cornerstone of American jurisprudence for a very long time, as you can see in Taney’s decision in the Dred Scott case.
It seems hilariously pedantic to argue that the Framers created a document that could, in theory, extend to black Americans the Fifth Amendment’s protections — “No person … [shall] be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law” — when chattel slavery was part of the bedrock of the American economy.
You’re being a textualist instead of a descriptivist/realist, and that’s kinda weird when the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments were required to amend the pernicious vagueness of the original document. If you were to describe the Constitution’s definition of citizenship in 1790, it would probably look similar to Taney’s assessment: “Blacks are not afforded citizenship here.”
Acting like the Constitution was some sort of see-saw in equilibrium that got tipped by the slave-owning interests, just because the language itself doesn’t remark on blacks (or women)? Nah, that’s not how it happened.
Is it technically correct to use “was” if he were using the (rapidly-becoming-archaic) subjunctive, though?
***I wasn’t responding to you ego boy…. I was making a general statement in response to Donnie Walsh***
I’m Donnie Walsh, and I support Scorpio Dragon (née, ego boy) in his response.
JK47,
You aren’t thinking clearly.
I can feel disgusted by what I was saw and think it was horrific and still conclude there isn’t any evidence it was motivated by race. If the main guy was clearly a racist, his partners would surely know that of him and have done something to stop him during the incident. Yet at least 2 others actively participated in kneeling on Floyd also (it’s on video) and neither of of them was white. So that means we are assuming 4 cops of 4 different ethnic backgrounds (one I believe is at least partially black) are all racist against black males even though they never said or did anything else to indicate race was a motivating factor (I guess it’s possible). More likely we are dealing with 4 bad power crazed, stressed out, poorly trained, irresponsible bad cops.
I would be mildly surprised if “hate crime” was added to the list of charges and very surprised if they were convicted when there is no indication of that. They will all go away for murder, manslaughter, or lesser crimes depending on their individual involvement.
“I am the least racist person you’ll ever meet,” Trump said, pointing to Don King, in the crowd at his rally, for validation.
So, per the “all that matters is text, author’s intention should be ignored” fallacy, Donald Trump is, literally, the least racist person I’ll ever meet?
Sorry, but when the context is staring you in the face, and you don’t use it, you are committing intellectual seppuku.
The founding documents are clear. They said “all men are created equal, endowed by the creator with inalienable human rights like liberty”, but they didn’t really mean all men. That doesn’t mean we need to throw them away. It means we need to acknowledge where they were wrong, and work toward fixing it, so that we can become a more perfect union.
>Is it technically correct to use “was” if he were using the (rapidly-becoming-archaic) subjunctive, though?<
OK, at least we are getting a little lighter now. 🙂
My writing skills were never my strong suit. It's a clear limitation. The way you express yourself is sometimes more important than the case you make.
it’s a normal grammatical mood, find a new slant
I don’t think there is a principle that suggests all words uttered are true.
I agree with all this.
That doesn’t mean the country was founded ON racism. It just means racism was prevalent at the time of its founding, and it was practiced by those who founded it, and racist intentions are ingrained in the institutions that we developed and need to be weeded out.
It may seem semantic, but it’s a point of pride that the principles themselves speak something that is not racist at all. It’s a very forward thinking set of principles that, like you said, we’ve been working 245 years on actualizing.
Most countries ARE founded on racism. The whole point of France was that their tribe is different and better than the neighboring tribe. We’re founded on ideals that went beyond the racism of the era and laid the groundwork for progress to be made.
In case anyone wants actually talk Basketball, I just listened to a worthwhile podcast. It was by Hollinger and Duncan (they have a joint podcast) and it discussed the “the best overseas veterans for the NBA”. In the beginning they discuss Euroleague characteristics that need to be taken into account when evaluating players there. Then they discuss a bunch of players. Most of them were bigs, and didn’t interest me but there was one two guard who is a great three point shooter.
After the protests, violence, and looting finally ends and these cops get prosecuted, imo a LOT of people are going to consider looking for a safer place to live and/or to restart their business. Given that some of the hardest hit areas are already in need of investment and help, that’s going to leave the remaining people in even worse shape than they are now and add to the very problems we want to correct.
I’m already having that conversation with my girlfriend.
We’ve been thinking about getting a larger place together. The idea was to stay in the same general area. Now she’s talking about moving upstate or getting a 2nd home further away so we can leave during pandemics, race riots, and other disasters in the city.
Why would anyone want to live or invest in a business in a higher risk area when it can all be taken away in a moment?
The next flight out of the cities is going to start once the pandemic and these other issues settle down.
i’ve heard tales that Woolsthorpe is really nice this time of era…and yes – time is relative, thank you 🙂
Holy shit, these two sentences side by side are pure gold. The irony! The fucking irony!
saw somewhere that we have a 9% chance at the #1 pick in the draft…i think the latest is to go with 22 teams, with a play in tourney for the 7th and 8th seed…
i like the idea of a play in tourney…those 1 – 8 and 2 – 7 match-ups will be really interesting if the 7th and 8th seeds get to play a series before they face the 2nd and 1st seed…
Despite the infighting, both extremes in this argument acknowledge some core premises here:
George Floyd was heinously murdered, and there is a tragically long and well-documented history of police brutality in the United States, especially of its most marginalized people. There is an equally long and well-documented history of failings by the justice system to prosecute and convict officers guilty of said brutality.
Also givens:
A system that consistently produces outcomes like this is clearly dysfunctional, reform is crucial ASAFP, and protests that serve to expedite said reform are good thing (with masks, personal space, etc. sufficient to minimize public health/pandemic hazard). Firebombing and wanton violence are not.
Lots of the disagreement is to what degree the failings of the police and justice systems are attributable to racism. I’m an extraordinarily privileged and light skinned dude. My role in “the conversation” doesn’t extend beyond the scope of personal condemnation and the little political capital I can marshal. But I (and anyone else who’s ever spent a day in his life running regressions) know how control variables work. And Strat, this “data control” drum you’ve been beating doesn’t the have the resonant timbre you think it does.
The raw numbers are very clear: POC are disproportionately affected by the police and justice systems, in terms of both legal enforcement and flagrant excesses. An underlying control variable for crime would be useful only if it also accounted for income inequality, an extremely well documented confounding variable. If not, the study, at best would shift the implied causality from:
(a) direct personal racism of the murderers with badges involved, to
(b) hundreds of years of woefully persistent political and economic disenfranchisement.
Either way, institutionalized racism would be a contributing factor. Whether the blame lies directly with the perpetrators or indirectly with a shitty…
>8 of every 10 police officers are white and male..how you can even posit on the above given that data is comedy at best….<
First. there are more whites than blacks, Hispanics, or Asians etc.. in the country. So naturally some of that 80% is explained away quickly. To offset the rest, there are often active efforts to recruit more minority cops to police minority neighborhoods specifically to avoid these kinds of events. But there is never a guarantee of equal desire or outcomes in any career or field – including basketball. I think more minority cops is a great idea though.
Given that 8 out 10 cops are white (I'll assume that's right without checking) that means 8 of 10 crimes committed by cops against citizens will probably be perpetrated by white cops. So right away we have a problem of perception.
Who they commit those crimes against will be a function of the demographics in the areas they are assigned and the crime level in those neighborhoods. That's where it gets tricky. If there's more crime in poverty stricken black areas with projects, drug abuse, joblessness, hopelessness, etc… than in the suburbs where more privileged white people live, there will be a lot more white on black police altercations because of both the demographics and total crime related altercations. Now the perception is doubly bad.
How you interpret this all properly gets tricky.
You have to look at what happens among black cops in the black areas and black cops in the white areas for some more clarity. You also have to understand that black cops get burned out and suffer from PTSD in the high crime areas too and then do things they might otherwise not do if mentally healthy.
In the end, you have to study these things carefully and not be weighed down by your own biases or the narrative you want to be true. Most of the studies out there are flawed or start with a conclusion and try to make the data fit.
To me, the single most chilling detail of the Floyd video was Chauvin’s body language as he dug his knee into Floyd’s windpipe for nine agonizing minutes. The officer did not appear to be under any real duress or in the throes of some “heat of the moment” adrenaline rush. Rather, he just sat there, cool as can be, hands in pockets, as if he were some bored clock-puncher whiling through another day on the job en route to the end of his shift. Real banality of evil shit.
I have no idea what makes Derrick Chauvin tick. I have not read the specifics the 16 previous excessive force complaints against him. I don’t know what was in his head at that moment. Whether he was thinking about the stories he’d tell the fellas at the next Boogaloo Bois meetup, his inability to satisfy his wife, or his decimated 401K while he sat blandly crushing the life out of George Floyd, I couldn’t say. But he KNEW there was a host of bystanders witnessing his actions; he KNEW he was likely being filmed and yet he appeared utterly unfazed by that knowledge. As if he also KNEW that no matter what the outcome, he and his partners would likely face minimal consequences for it.
Now that’s racism. Chauvin may not have been feeling a white hot burning hatred for the Other at that moment. Although that’s how racism is commonly portrayed in the movies and on TV, it’s not the only kind. There’s also the kind that allows a police officer to coolly choke the life out of a man, ignore that man’s anguished pleas for relief, all while witnesses are standing by. Would Chauvin have behaved in a like manner had Floyd been a white man? If the answer to that is “no,” then QED
Unfortunately after reading many of the comments here I have only reinforced my belief that if a person doesn’t acknowledge the existence of systemic racism, there’s no intelligent debate to be had with that person.
Who the fuck cares if the cop who killed Floyd was an actual card bearing member of KKK or if there’s any “hard evidence” of him being racist? It’s never been about this, this is literally the least important thing about the debate. What matters is that we live in a world where this motherfucker felt powerful enough to outright murder a black person on camera because he’s a cop. What matters is that there’s a structure set in place for centuries that divides human being into tiers of perceived humanity, with black people being assigned the lowest tier when it comes to race, that enables this type of behavior and empowers fucking idiots like him to act like he did. If you can’t understand or won’t bother to understand the pervasiveness of structural discrimination, you really should be quiet.
The only fucking way you can take a knee to someone’s neck for minutes until that person dies is if you have a perception that that person is less human than you. That can come in many flavors, the person can be perceived as less human because it’s a trans person, a LGBT person, a black person, just a white “communist”, a woman, a jew, a lot of things. Floyd was a black guy, which put him into the position to be dehumanized, so that’s why the conversation is shifting towards racism. It’s a system that organizes death and hits the most vulnerable people at insanely high rates. If you can’t see racism, you’re a racist, it’s simple.
***That doesn’t mean the country was founded ON racism. It just means racism was prevalent at the time of its founding, and it was practiced by those who founded it, and racist intentions are ingrained in the institutions that we developed and need to be weeded out. It may seem semantic, but it’s a point of pride that the principles themselves speak something that is not racist at all. It’s a very forward thinking set of principles that, like you said, we’ve been working 245 years on actualizing.***
Hubert,
I do understand what you are saying and the semantical nuances. And I am not saying we need to tear down everything (a la the French c. 1789, or the residents of Ilium, NY in Player Piano). The country was founded on tremendous philosophical ideals. I am a student of Madison, and Montesquieu, and Marcus. I don’t want to throw out the baby with the bath water. I believe Jefferson to be a genius, and his contribution to history should be valued at the highest level.
But the high ground of the founding doesn’t “trump” the low road that ran parallel, and can’t be ignored. If, as a nation, we acknowledge what is wrong, we can move forward toward healing. Instead of saying things like “When the looting starts, the shooting starts” and other incendiary comments that glorify what is wrong and ignore what needs to be made right.
>Gotta say, this is a good point. No one does anything racist without declaring “I am hereby carrying out this action due to my racism.”<
Your point is well taken, but generally in hate crime cases there actually has to be some evidence that race was a motivating factor. There's nothing like that here yet. As of now it's a vile act with an assumption of racism by some people because that's the way they are wired to think and because the worst offender of the 4 multi racial cops was white and the victim was black.
Here's some background on hate crimes. I'm not holding speculation to the same standard as a courtroom, but it's worth reading.
"Not every crime committed against a racial minority or a person who is gay is a hate crime. In order to convict a defendant of a hate crime, the prosecutor must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime because of the victim’s race or sexual orientation or for some other prohibited reason. Proving that the defendant acted with hate crime intent can be challenging, unless the defendant admits (to police or others) that the crime was motivated by bias"
"Aside from defendant’s own statements, relevant evidence of bias might include:
defendant’s membership in a group that espouses hatred for certain groups (such as a black separatist group or an online chat group that opposes homosexuality)
defendant’s possession of literature or symbols associated with bias, such as Nazi memorabilia or anti-Semitic texts
defendant’s own writings, graffiti, or tattoos
the use of biased slurs or graffiti during or at the site of the crime
the date of the incident, if it coincides with a significant holiday or anniversary, and other hate crimes committed by defendant".
You mean the hate crime laws written by the aspiring white ethnostate? What could go wrong
Strat — Has anyone else mentioned hate crimes on this thread?
Why are you bringing up hate crimes?
It’s the attention. Even if it’s abuse, if Strat can make the thread about him, he’s been successful.
“The only fucking way you can take a knee to someone’s neck for minutes until that person dies is if you have a perception that that person is less human than you. That can come in many flavors, the person can be perceived as less human because it’s a trans person, a LGBT person, a black person, just a white “communist”, a woman, a jew, a lot of things. .”
Everything you are saying is essentially true except there are also fucked up cops of every color that do fucked up things to people of the same color, same sexual orientation, same sex, same political affiliation etc… because they are power mad lunatics that never should have been cops to begin with or because they are burned out psychos full of range and anger from their job as cops and should no longer be cops.
Being burnt out is a fundamental problem with policing. A lot of these guys are in the same mental shape as men that return from war. They have to removed from duty or at least from the streets at the first sign of psychological problems.
Because I can’t sleep, I want to make my comments clear.
1. People don’t want to read nuance. There is no room for nuance in discussion. I never said any of the things I was accused of saying.
2. I never said there is no systemic racism. I said it is not ‘everywhere’ and we should not burn down the whole country via riots, looting, assault and arson to be rid of it.
3. I do stand against what happened to George Floyd, and against police brutality and racism.
4. At the same damn time, I can also stand against riots, looting, assault and arson, and call for order. Where I live, people have been hurt, property destroyed. I don’t get why it is ok or ‘understood’
5. I still do not think – and these were my words before – that “this country is based on racism.” I don’t think it is. If you think it is, fine, I can tolerate your opinion. I think for their time the founders were very fair and egalitarian. Things have been corrected since then. Guess what, things will continue to be corrected until the sun burns out. You too will be thought of as a backwards thinking goon in 100 years. But this country was built on certain amazing ideals that brought my parents here, and those same ideals directly oppose racism.
6. We cannot simply yell “racist” at each other as if it is a little thing. If untrue, it dilutes the word and is deeply offensive.
7. I think, instead of yelling at each other over the merits of civil unrest, and debate whether or not society deserves it, but to ask ourselves: what is our next step? How do we get there? You cannot defeat an evil by committing evil.
From the person who ran the club where Chauvin worked as a bouncer.
“She said Chauvin got along well with the club’s Latino regulars, but his tactics toward unruly customers on what she referred to as “African American” nights led her to speak to him about it.
“I told him I thought this is unnecessary to be pepper-sprayed. The knee-jerk reaction of being afraid, it seemed overkill,” Santamaria said. “It was a concern and I did voice my opinion, but police officers have a way of justifying what they do.”
>?Strat — Has anyone else mentioned hate crimes on this thread?
Why are you bringing up hate crimes?<
There is an assumption of racism in this case, but I have been saying that's not necessarily true for a variety of reasons. I brought in the standards of "hate crimes" as a way of pointing that at least legally, making the leap to racism requires some evidence. Speculation is fine, but there is no evidence whatsoever that this was a race related act albeit as disgusting a video as you'll ever see. They should and will go to jail for this either way.
he must be snorting hydroxycholorquine…
>1. People don’t want to read nuance. There is no room for nuance in discussion. I never said any of the things I was accused of saying.<
Get used to it unless you follow the party line. You'll spend more time clarifying what you said than actually making points.
We aren’t in a fucking courtroom. And your compulsion to advance this pedantic argument is so far beyond the point that it raises questions to me about your motivation.
Like, are you really trying to argue that people on this random Knicks stats blog aren’t proving beyond reasonable doubt that this individual murder was motivated by racial prejudice? Well no shit. It’s a group of internet commenters, not a legal team. If your point is that the arguments on this blog wouldn’t be sufficient to convict, it wouldn’t be shocking (if it were true) and more importantly, it’s completely out of scope of what matters here. It’s a pointless tangent that the people who engage will inevitably spiral through.
And beyond that, why are you citing random studies you haven’t even read with data that you don’t seem to understand? Or that because there were some “mixed brown” (wtf dude?) officers, therefore no racism. It’s a pointless aside that you’re defending tenaciously with shitty arguments?
And why is the standard you’re applying to other voices completely out of sync with your own arguments. Honestly, is it just because your arguments happen to line up with your preconceived notions developed over decades of extremely subjective experience? This “I’m old, therefore I know what I’m talking about even though I can’t justify it and therefore everyone else is wrong” schtick just reeks of bad faith, and I think it’s one of the reasons why some of your comments are so inflammatory.
You’re not being bullied. You’re just being really insensitive to some serious shit, derailing the conversation with pointless minutia, failing to support your claims, accusing the board of failing to support its claims, and crying foul when people like tnfh don’t like what you have to say. I hate falling victim to the latest iteration of reductio ad hitlerum, but it’s no wonder you tend to sympathize with 45
Brian,
I’d still prefer you block my ID so I am not even tempted to read this forum.
It’s best for me and the forum.
Here it comes, the same old sob story about how people won’t recognize nuance and whatever.
There is no nuance. As long as I choose to discuss with you, I have to confer some validity to the claims you are making to make it an actual discussion. I cannot, and will not, accept the validity of the claim that “structural racism isn’t everywhere”, or that you somehow need to find hard evidence that a crime was racially motivated to see the racial aspects involved in it. If you can’t, for once, shut up for a second and actually listen to the people who are protesting about what angers them, and instead you choose to make the debate around what you personally think in your very limited experience on the subject, you’re directly making this only about yourself. Not that any of this is surprising, because it obviously isn’t.
I’ll go back to my self-imposed exile.
>And beyond that, why are you citing random studies you haven’t even read with data that you don’t seem to understand?<
I did read them and that's why I am saying the perceptions in this country are not quite equal to reality when it comes to policing. If this forum doesn't want to accept that information and reality, so be it. It's the reality and very much part of the discussion of this case, cases like it, and the reaction to them. I'm very much aware of the racism in this country but I don't automatically find it when it doesn't exist. I find it when it does.
It isn’t “nuance”. It’s just pointless. Out of scope, overzealously defended, and under researched. And the fact that you’re so precious about this tripe is irritating. Especially because you seem like an altogether decent fellow. I think most here like to engage in arguments when there’s a chance that it’s a good faith discussion
story time:
not nearly up to par with mister jk’s roach in the pocket story, but – sometime during the mid 80’s i remember being around 42nd and being down in to the subway (i have no idea why – cuz, i don’t think i’ve ever actually ridden on the subway)…i had a joint tucked behind my ear…for some crazy reason – i didn’t even think anything of it…as i was leaving the subway i had a cop walk up to me and ask me what the hell was wrong with me, didn’t dawn on me what he was talking about till he pointed at my ear…i don’t think he even made me throw my weed away…
this is some years now, but, was in a car in a parking lot at the mall getting ready to go in to a comedy club with a bunch of other latin folks in the car…as we were parked there i opened up a beer and fired up a joint, sat and smoked and drank like it was nothing…the other folks in the car though, with much darker complexions than myself, wanted nothing more than to get the fuck out of the car and away from me – they were sure the police, mall security, somebody was getting ready to raid that vehicle…
unless you’ve been the target of racism, i don’t think it’s something you can truly sympathize with…
Strat – Do you like have a “Jump to Conclusions” doormat, but one that you make sure never to jump on?
Thank you for your assiduous efforts in preventing us from seeing racism where it may not exist but does.
Just saw your reply. I’m not trying to be a dick here, but this response doesn’t really address what I was trying to elicit from you. For one, It clearly doesn’t have an impact on how we interpret the footage. What it might do, at best (depending on its methodological treatment of confounding variables – I’d still like the link if you have it), is to suggest that police misdeeds (however they’re defined in the study) are more class related, and attributable to historic disenfranchisement. If that’s the point you’re fighting to make, I guess I just don’t see the point of this argument. Lots of controversy for something relatively milquetoast
Ok I definitely don’t fit in here.
Yeah.
Wow, so I suspect you’re furious with the guy who, in this thread alone, has said:
“As usual you are proving that you are a moron.”
“…you are an asshole…”
“Go crawl into a hole you fucking scumbag.”
“You owe me and even the forum an apology you dickhead.”
“People like thenoblefacehumper are too foolish to understand that.”
“…he’s a know nothing prick…”
“…thenoblefacehumper is a know nothing pain in the ass…”
“…you are an ass (and a know nothing ass on top of that)”
more weird and irrelevant tales please – said no one…
i remember visiting a girl friend and her family whom lived in bowie, md…her dad was black, mom was this feisty asian lady…i remember she took me to the silver springs mall…we were in there for about 5 minutes or so before i realized pretty much everyone in the mall was black…
didn’t feel fear or nothing, i did though feel very different from everyone else…it was like i had a spotlight on me…not a comfortable feeling…
it’s funny, i had a similar experience in st. pete once…was driving though this section of the city at a stop light when i noticed that all the people on the street and in their cars were all old…
it’s very hard to imagine what it’s like to always be in the minority…
This is the issue with everything right now. Right wingers (or perhaps Trump supporters or whatever you want to call the immovable conservatives) will only believe the sensory information they’ve experienced — not the experiences of others, nor the work of scientists, nor accredited reporters, none of it.
The world contains way too much information for a single person to ever take in. Believe women, believe minorities, believe scientists.
I remember being in line for a shitty club with a big group of guys from school. Two of the group weren’t allowed in because they “didn’t have the right look”, despite being extremely well dressed, and frankly, handsome dudes. I was allowed in, despite literally wearing pajama pants.
I thought it would be a good idea to press the bouncer for the specifics. Unfortunately, one of the “wrong looking” friends was unsurprised and completely clear headed about everything. Fortunately (for me) he knew how to recognize shit brewing, and steered my head away from a fist
***Brian,
I’d still prefer you block my ID so I am not even tempted to read this forum. It’s best for me and the forum.***
Don’t be a pussy. Man up and walk the fuck out if you think that’s what’s best.
Hahaha….agree with the “pussy” citation…last time i used it in that connotation was when someone asked me about reggie miller….
I’m still scratching my head about the hate crime prosecution guidelines’ connection to the murder, and delayed prosecution, of George Floyd. I think I need to start researching the Frye standard so I can use it against Lady Jowles next time we get into a domestic spat. Might help me understand Strat a little better.
If there’s really anyone on this thread who doesn’t understand the racism aspect, or considers only hate crimes as racism, just go back and read the Christian Cooper story. It’s literally textbook – like they should teach it in college. She actually said, “I’m going to call 911 and tell them an African American man is threatening me.” Not “a man.” She knew what that meant, and she knew that he knew. It was 400 years of systemic racism leading to astonishing moment of white privilege being wielded like a war hammer. For those of you still missing the subtext, it’s back the fuck up or you’re going to Rikers — or if the wrong cop shows up, getting knelt on until you’re dead.
Dolan used his mulligan. Might have scraped over the bar.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/06/02/knicks-owner-james-dolan-defends-his-silence-george-floyds-death-protests/
And here is Rex Chapman. Coming a long way from being the king of fail videos….
https://www.kentucky.com/opinion/op-ed/article243210281.html
I’ve been out all day and just checked this site for the first time today, holy shit….
Wes Unseld was a true badass.
Yeah, it’s a shame that his impressive life is not going to get as much attention as it deserves.
Maybe when the season restarts they will honor him appropriately.
I mean, in a league with Wilt, West, Chamberlain, Oscar and others, for him to win the MVP as a rookie is an enormous accomplishment.
I was just thinking earlier about Unseld and just about how impressive it is to win the MVP in the NBA period. Look at how many amazing players never achieved it. Heck, look at the amazing players just this season alone who aren’t going to win it! It’s really one of the more impressive awards around. The basketball Hall of Fame is a bit of a joke, but even with that in mind, it’s still interesting that the NBA MVP Award is pretty much the only award where, just by virtue of winning it, you’re pretty much a Hall of Famer. The only exception in NBA (and ABA!) history is Derrick Rose, which is kind of crazy when you think about it. Also, though, A. Rose shouldn’t have won the MVP over Lebron that year and B. Rose had a career-altering injury at the way too young age of 23.
“If there’s really anyone on this thread who doesn’t understand the racism aspect, or considers only hate crimes as racism, just go back and read the Christian Cooper story. ”
There is no question this woman is a POS. You are correct she knew precisely what she was doing. Ipsa Loquiter that the woman is a racist. No one argues that. The argument doesn’t lay with whether racism exists but whether it is as pervasive as some of you here seem to think. I get it that one case is one case to many but you cannot legislate solutions to human behavior. You can disincentivize it through legislation, but it will likely never end 100%. That may be a depressing thought.
The question is…. what’s the remedy or the best course of action? is burning down thousands of minority businesses a wise course of action? Is shooting 4 cops in St Louis or 1 in the head in Vegas the appropriate response?
People here have the right to freely assemble for whatever reason but 2,000 people do not have the right willy nilly to assemble on I-95 or wherever when ever they please in an uncontrolled mass. Once local government is derelict in their primary duty (to protect the public) the civil society breaks down and you get the anarchy you’ve seen the past week.
And could the politicians please stop grandstanding. We don’t need Mike Pence and Biden at the victim’s funeral in Minneapolis.
The sound of ultimate suffering. Will they attend this poor girl’s sister’s funeral:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_IjvBQwIAQ
Keep explaining yourself, Jimmy. Keep explaining yourself.
Maybe in the current environment the thuggish tactics aimed at Charles Oakley and to a lesser degree Spike Lee will start looking more like the racially-based things they very well might be. There’s a lot of Amy Cooper eyes in the “threat” to “safety” Oakley was deemed to pose.
Hopefully, some intrepid journalists will go back and re-evaluate the contemporaneous wording Dolan used about Oakley. It wasn’t pretty.
treatment of wetbandit in this thread was pathetic. if you have any useful intent as opposed to scoring points in the ether or spewing cathartic netrage, ‘fuck off you racist’ whether you want to brand it intolerant or bilious is literally counterproductive. you don’t have to be a dissonance ninja to know that shit pushes people away from any inkling of a possible rethink. some posters are incorrigible, whether by design or as victims of their own inexorably hardwired thought loops. kick the accidentrolls or don’t it really doesn’t matter. i find it fun. i hardly ever agree with wetbandit, including about basketball, but he’s plainly not on the immutable end of that continuum. precisely everyone here is a fucking racist sometimes somehow so let’s save the generalizations for the more extreme cases.
Has anyone ever had an encounter with police where their presence ever helped and made a situation better?
They’re not on our side.
Oaktrees – As a New Yorker who was here for 9/11, I can confirm that there were a lot of cops who were on our side that day.
Oaktrees
June 3, 2020 at 8:40 am
Has anyone ever had an encounter with police where their presence ever helped and made a situation better?
They’re not on our side.
Hmmmmm… I’ll go with the words of John Mayall….. “Don’t throw rocks at policemen…. but get the knots of the law untied.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5ROJctoIVs
I’ve been seeing many encounters this week of the police doing great and brave things to participate in the current demand for justice.
Makes two of us, but how long can you suck their ass for doing their job one day nearly twenty years ago.
You don’t help police. They brutalize, lie and look out for themselves and state above all else. Don’t kid yourself and believe they have your best interests at hand.
Miss me with that kneeling pig prop too.
The police aren’t exactly garnering any sympathy with the hundreds (maybe more now) of videos showing them brutalize peaceful protesters. New polls are showing a majority of Americans (57%) now believe the police are more likely to use excessive force against black people. 20 points higher than it was in 2014 or 2016. The public is more likely to support police reform now than at any point in our country’s history.
As I said upthread a good place to start would be much stronger civilian complaint review boards. Wouldn’t even need police or mayoral support, the US Justice Department could mandate it like they did in Newark. Giving civilians the power to subponea police documents and to force cops to testify is a must. If we can’t get rid of police unions then strong CCRBs are a good way to counter them. It won’t come close to fixing everything but it would be a start.
ptmilo, I think it’s the other way around. See, I’m not saying that I’m not racist. I am, through my implicit biases and my participation in the system that continues to exploit based on race. wetbandit, on the other hand, doesn’t think he’s a racist, and wants to focus our attention on the “actual racists”:
The frustration comes from wetbandit’s refusal — draped in the cloak of “that’s just my opinion” — to acknowledge that one can be, and likely are, racist because of the things you don’t do, as much as the things you do.
I think Donnie summed it up:
Again, further frustration from wetbandit’s repeated and adamant refusal to acknowledge simple historical fact, like that black people were not afforded rights under the Constitution, were held as chattel slaves for the first 70ish years of the nation, were violently repressed or excluded from equal political/economic participation in both the Jim Crow South and the industrializing North, and so on and so on and so on.
So if it helps– wetbandit, I humbly (and sincerely) urge you to read more on the racist history of America, and to not take personal offense to being a racist, like the rest of us, in a society that systematically and ubiquitously pumps racism into us from childhood onward. I’m not asking you to wear a scarlet letter. I’m asking you to acknowledge that you are more like me than not.
And until the day comes where I can say, ah thank goodness the police showed up, they made a bad situation better. I will be vehemently anti police. If and when that ever happens, I’ll gladly change my tune.
If we defund the police and a woman gets beaten by her husband or raped by a stranger, who is she going to call to have the beater or the rapist arrested? Is the idea that everyone just has their own private bodyguards, like a lot of celebrities do now? What if they can’t afford one?
And, then, ok — Macy’s hires their own security force and in the middle of a shoplifting they overreact or misinterpret and badly harm or kill a black person. What then?
And, you know what? Yeah, black neighborhoods are overpoliced. No question. But the police aren’t really there overpolicing just to protect white people.
Instead of just turning up the outrage meter to 11 (*) all the time, maybe a little stop-and-think might be in order.
(*) “The 21st century American police are the worst organization in the history of the universe!!!!” See? Anybody can do it. It’s not hard.
Well, there are courageous cops who put their life on the line and who do the right thing and also bad cops who commit despicable acts. Maybe I am naive but it seems to me that that making blanket generalizations about classes of people is what we are fighting against, no? Unless they work in editorial content at Fox News. Those people are the devil.
You can absolutely cut their budgets. Police departments shouldn’t be para military. Instead of giving city pigs weapons of war, put some money into youth programs. The disparities in the budgets are stunning.
What other profession can 40% of the workforce can be known wife beaters?
I don’t think you’re entirely off-base and my response to wetbandit was “[l]et me ask you, what efforts have you made to see the point of view of people who say racism is deeply embedded in American society, as opposed to just being a problem we encounter from a few individuals?” Make of that what you will.
However, I do think you’re being unrealistically optimistic about his willingness to change his mind given both the substance and the tone of his posts. Basically I think he’s further down the continuum than you acknowledge. If you read his posts and thought “this is a person with some misguided ideas, but who is open to hearing other points of view,” god bless you.
And another thing that’s very strange is that there is probably more consensus around the fundamental question of unjust police aggression than at any time in American history as we sit here today, and yet the mechanism by which that can be turned into meaningful concrete action is as broken as it has ever been. There’s a good chance nothing concrete or only marginally concrete is going to come out of this. We have to move from the performative to the substantive.
I hope this analysis is wrong, but I’m pessimistic it is.
As Oaktrees said, part of the problem is this:
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/1033_program
I agree with you there E, big time.
A friend of mine who’s interested in this weird “Cock Jowles” alter-ego wrote this after reading the thread:
[6:09 PM, 6/2/2020] I try to only engage when the other person is acting in good faith
[6:09 PM, 6/2/2020] Otherwise it’s wasted energy
She may have been referring to my intermezzo railing against the phrase “true facts” (not for its redundancy, but for the quality of opinion that often accompanies it) but I think it’s relevant here.
The militarization of the police in terms of equipment and attitude and practice has been a disaster. I read somewhere today that something like 40% of recent new hires have been ex-military, which is also a terrible idea. The perception of a cop as just a different kind of soldier has to go away immediately. I’m not sure how you do that, but it’s a fundamental underpinning of the problem.
The defunding question is pretty simple: why are police budgets historically high when crime rates are historically low? No one seems to have a good answer besides “cops have a lot of political power.”
Total non-sequitur. Even full-on police abolitionists acknowledge the need for some kind of service one can utilize when there is real danger. The fact of the matter is it would be both more cost-efficient and more ethical to deal with plenty of situations currently dealt with by police via some combination of social work and community involvement.
I think you put that really well.
It has come for a lot of people, which is why your stance will get some backlash. Granted, those people are going to be overwhelmingly white, like me. But I’m not gonna sit here and tell you that your stance on policing should be based on my experience with police.
I hope that day comes for you. That’s what we’re working for.
Me too Hubert, me too.
Someone earlier up mentioned how they got treated when they were caught smoking a doob in Central Park. I had something very similar. Drinking a beer on the platform of the Marcy J (yeah, young and dumb). Anyway, two sips in, the backwards hats booted goons show up. The actually let us CONTINUE drinking and FINISH our beers as they wrote a summons for a $35 dollar mail in fine. I remember these black kids looking at us with their jaws open. It was embarrassing, but really drove home how there are two systems, things could of gone very differently.
Hopefully a real change comes from all this.
The answer would be something like “[hurr durr] Fox Butterfield effect”
Maybe everybody when they turn 18 should have to go to basic police training, then serve 4 years as a police man/woman, policing their own neighborhood.
You mean no one your age has a good answer. There are some of us who remember what the urban landscape was like when the criminals had higher budgets than the police. You can’t even imagine my first Knicks game as a 6 year old in 1984.
Para military is way too far (it’s not the political might of the police force that made it that way, it’s military weapons contractors), but you don’t want to be in a city where the police are not winning the arms race.
I’ve always wondered how do you not become a worse human when you interact with the worse segments of our society…
when people instinctively lie to you all the time…when you’re consistently charged with dealing with the worse of humanity…
I don’t have an answer…I would imagine policing attracts a certain personality type…different from our soldiers, teachers, firefighters, health care workers – others whom serve our society…
policing seems like a pretty shitty job to me…I’m thankful though there are folks whom do want that responsibility…
somehow though our society needs to control their actions…it just feels like they have a blank check to act in any manner…