NY Daily News: Kenny Atkinson is on Knicks coaching list: report

kenny atkinson would probably be the best coach we’ve had since jvg….. yes better than mda…

This will be a tough call. I’m sure Dolan would like to try and stick it to the Nets, but I have to believe the job is basically Thibs’ because of Rose.

If it’s Thibs, I’d think they would only go for guys with top-level athleticism – just a guess. Hampton, Cole, Kira… maybe even Okoro? I would bet on Kira.

Hiring Thibs over Atkinson seems nuts. But that’s me.

My vibe is that most here are generally ok with Thibs. Most probably aren’t wowed by him but definitely think he’s a safer pick than most of the other names that have been thrown around (Mark Jackson, etc.)

Feels like Hastings on Hudson

I’ve been on a few short boat trips along the hudson… it would be nice to take a little longer trip along the river…

damn, add river cruises to gardening and yoga – more shit that when I was younger I never thought I’d ever wanna do in life…

now that I’ve come to better terms with home schooling and working from home – been spending a lot more time in the garden lately…

gardening out here is a challenge if you like green things, the sun can be brutal, I have a couple hundred square feet of space and I got three umbrellas, huge rose bush, lemon tree and a couple of hibiscus for shade, and – it ain’t enough…

actually had a random redwood seed land in the flower bed…I’ve planted everything except the rose bush, so when this little stick started coming out the ground I was curious to see what it was…took me about 3 years to figure it out…it didn’t look like anything else nearby…finally saw something similiar at a local park, some huge redwood tree…

had to cut it down when it was about 5 or so…broke my heart, great shade, birds absolutely loved the tree…

hoa though…plus, I knew it wasn’t in the right spot, it started growing really fast…it was funny – the gardner had a hell of time cutting it down…kept stalling out the chain saw…

wanna pick up another one of those waterfall patio things, I wanna get one in a bamboo style, I like that rhythmic wood click…they really help block out surrounding noise…

Nah, farther north. And the property taxes are insane.

Well since you’re hiring Thibs exclusively for his defensive chops (we know he’s a mediocre offensive coach and has regressive ideas about minutes and player conditioning) the question is what the hell happened with the defenses in Minnesota.

If you believe it was exclusively a talent issue and he’s still an A+ defensive coach then yeah it’s probably a good hire. I’m still worried about it being more of the same “eat what you kill” garbage on offense, and I think you’ll need strong oversight from the front office to make sure the minutes thing doesn’t get out of control but those are theoretically addressable issues and there was a time where he was considered a great, great coach plus the JVG lineage thing is a nice bonus.

On the other hand I think there’s a strong case to be made that he made his defensive bones with a system tailored to a very specific period – after the removal of the illegal defense rules but before the 3-point explosion, where he basically cracked the code. But teams have now gone to a completely different level in terms of willingness to shoot a diet of strictly 3s and it may be that his style of defense is just antiquated now. If he can’t adapt you’re maybe getting a guy whose supposed strength as a coach is now a borderline liability. I think he has real questions to answer at this point and it sure seems like the league largely shares that view – he’s not exactly getting bandied about as a name for a lot of other jobs since he left the Wolves.

IMO, these are the 9 best proven playoff caliber coaches in the NBA. Only 1 of them is available.

Hiring Atkinson feels like a short term developmental move with the hope he can prove himself later in the playoffs when the game changes and adjustments matter. If he can’t we’ll be looking for another new coach in 2-3 years.

Why not just hire the best available coach?

Brad Stevens
Greg Popovich
Erik Spoelstra
M. Budenholzer
Nick Nurse
Rick Carlisle
Steve Kerr
Doc Rivers
Tom Thibodeau

Ding ding ding. (It’s not as great as the NYT stories make it seem.)

Too easy.

Give me another.

djphan,

What you are basically suggesting is that we are better off hiring a coach with a good developmental record even though he couldn’t get along with his star players, was fired, and is still unproven as a playoff caliber coach. If he fails in the playoffs later then we should hire someone like Thibs when we are actually ready to complete.

Thibs was doing very well with the T-Wolves. His problem was that he made some poor salary decisions as an executive. Then Jimmy Butler refused to play with Towns and Wiggins because of their attitudes. If it was just Thibs that couldn’t get through to Towns and Wiggins, I’d hold him responsible and consider a black mark. But Butler still says great things about Thibs. That means the problem was Towns and Wiggin and not that he can’t develop young talent. He took that team from garbage to playing playoff basketball. They they fell off the cliff again as soon as he left.

I like Atkinson. He also kind of fits the stage we are at now, But Thibs is the way more proven coach. It’s not even close.

When did it become an accepted irrefutable truth that there are “development” coaches that are only good with young teams and “win now” coaches that are only good with good veteran teams that are ready to win it all?

A good coach is a good coach and should be able to do both. I’m sure this dichotomy might be true in some instances but I think it’s rather silly that this has become an accepted truth in basketball.

I maintain my position that as long as we avoid major fuck-ups we can build a winning team. The only consistent cellar dwellers are those that consistently make major fuck-ups. I don’t think either of these coaches are major fuck-up moves, so whatever.

When did it become an accepted irrefutable truth that there are “development” coaches that are only good with young teams and “win now” coaches that are only good with good veteran teams that are ready to win it all?

A good coach is a good coach and should be able to do both. I’m sure this dichotomy might be true in some instances but I think it’s rather silly that this has become an accepted truth in basketball.

I strongly disagree with this take. Being a basketball coach is an amalgamation of a ton of quite different skills. Everything from effectively managing a staff, communicating with the media, getting along with players, installing effective systems, making tactical adjustments, helping players improve their skills, and a bunch of others (most of those listed could be further broken down as well). Every coach is stronger in some aspects and weaker in others and will be a good fit in situations where their strong aspects are emphasized and a bad fit in situations where their weak aspects are emphasized.

Your post is like asking when it became accepted that there are “shooters” and “shot blockers” . A good basketball player is a good basketball player and should be able to do both.

Comparing a coach to a player in regards to skills is not fair at all.

I’m not saying there aren’t different skills to being a coach or that some coaches might not be better at development and others are better at managing veteran teams. Just that I think its a fallacy that its been accepted now as an irrefutable truth that a coach can only do one or the other.

I mean, when does a coach become a win now coach? Does a coach who coaches a really good team automatically get put into the win now category?

Was Kerr a win now hire by Golden State? He had never coached before. If he coached The Warriors before Mark Jackson would he have failed at developing that team because he could only take them to the next level once they were good?

The Bulls were 41-41 the season before Thibs took over. They were the 8th seed. I mean, that’s the definition of an average team so obviously they had a foundation. But the next season they won 62 games! That’s a huge increase. Was player development completely out of the equation when calculating for why they improved so much?

Drawing up plays in time out. Rotation management. Defensive and offensive schemes. Getting the most out of your players. These are things that development coaches and win now coaches need to do and if a coach does these things well, it will benefit a rookie and a veteran.

I have always felt coaches are window dressing. Certainly, they shape the experience of rooting for the team quite a bit, the narrative around it. On the edges they probably matter some. For the most part though, the teams with the best players and with the biggest superstars are generally going to win.

It’s always been fascinating to me how much credit they receive and how much a part of the story they always are.

I do think Thibs would be terrible window dressing but I don’t think he’ll matter one bit when it comes to wins.

and seriously…. getting along with kd and kyrie isn’t exactly a problem unique to atkinson….

When we hired Fizdale i thought, well, his record with the Grizzles was reasonable and he was a modern coach but some players resisted modernity. I had high hopes for him. But it turned out he wasn’t good and Memphis had reason to move on from him. I’m getting the same vibe about Atkinson. He’s like Fizdale in that his team seemed to do well with him, just that some players wanted someone different. Now I’m thinking maybe NJ was right to move on from him and we will find out why if we hire him.

I don’t get the same feeling about Thibs. He was fired by Chicago because of conflicts with management, not players; and he was fired from Minnesota for his GM performance, not his coaching performance. Even though I worry about his maybe overusing players, this board has convinced me that may just be smoke. I’m willing to to take a chance on him and prefer him to Atkinson.

That said, Miller seems quite competent. I’d prefer Miller to Atkinson. I don’t know who to pick between Miller and Thibs.

when thibs was coach… andrew wiggins and jamal crawford had higher usage rates than KAT….

there were absolutely a lot of things wrong with thibs’ coaching performancing in minny…..

Not sure how i only became of aware of this Game of Zones episode today but this is hilarious.

I kind of feel like at least one of the Malamuts is on this board. I can’t believe there is any other way that a Tyreke Evans to the Knicks on a 5 year contract joke got written.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUcn2OhbWb4

when thibs was coach… andrew wiggins and jamal crawford had higher usage rates than KAT….

This should be disqualifying. Seriously, what more do we need to see? They had a good offense because Karl-Anthony Towns and Jimmy Butler are very good at basketball, but it seems like Thibs impeded that more than anything else.

It boggles my mind that people are worried about Atkinson potentially not getting along well with stars. I mean, newsflash: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2020.html

The Nets were top 5 in 3PA every season Atkinson was coach. I understand that on its own is not some perfect indicator of quality coaching, it sure would be nice to have a coach who has a grasp of the modern game for once.

His record on player development is also unimpeachable, which again, I understand is largely attributable to the players themselves, but we’ve had a series of coaches who sure seem to actively get in the way of developing young players.

Atkinson’s drawbacks appear to be that he doesn’t get along well with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant. What relevance does that have to our coaching decision?

If you think Robinson, RJ, Frank, Knox and whoever we draft this year won’t be able to handle a tough coach that demands hard work, then we are drafting the wrong players not hiring the wrong coach. I look at that list and think every one of them will be down for working their asses off for Thibs.

OH MY GOD A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.

Look, I get the younger of players isn’t like the old school dudes and the bobby knight approach to coaching doesn’t work anymore. But forgive me if I think we should be afraid to pick a coach because he might actually try to push young players to get better and not moddycoddle them and stroke their egos and tell them they’re doing a great job when they aren’t.

We want players who want to get better. Period. Jimmy butler was a second round pick and put in an insane amount of work to get better. Is he an asshole? Sure, maybe. He’s also a great player. Lebron can be an asshole too. They don’t all need to be Jordan and that extreme maybe doesn’t work as much anymore but I don’t want players who need to have their hand held and told how great they are when they aren’t. I get these dudes all have egos and are all ready insanely talented and put in work to get where they are now. But I don’t want players who will rest on their laurels and get their ego’s hurt when a coach dares to sit them when they fuck up or ride them when they aren’t doing their best.

it’s not like atkinson’s a terrible coach that won’t demand hard work….

he had less talent on the nets and had just as good a record as thibs did… what exactly are we using as evidence that thibs actually knows what he’s doing?

he’s a good coach? ok show it….

Sarcasm Alert!

Tyron Lue is a proven champ.
3 Finals in 3 years! 1 chip only but a historic one.
He may be even better than Kerr.
Why not go after him ?

I’d be happy with Thibs or Atkinson or Miller or even Mark Jackson!
I see all of them as good coaches and id love to see their different approach on our young core.

Miller showed something this season.
His gentle and mild demeanor preached patience and high character.

Who’s the best of those 4 ?
I really can’t tell. It’s a multidimensional thing and luck has to do a lot with it.
It’s like a relationship.
You just Never Know what’s going to happen….

Ready to Enjoy any possible ride!

But apparently basketball has changed so much in the last 5 years

Thibs coached a team in 2017-2018.

They were dead last in the league in 3PA.
5 guys saw 33+ MPG.
Jamal Crawford (.519 TS%) and Andrew Wiggins (.505 TS%) had higher usage rates than Karl-Anthony Towns.

He got his second chance and failed.

Players matter more than coaches when teams are winning.
But when teams are losing it’s always coach’s fault.
It’s almost like…like an NBPA conspiracy.

Or maybe he made the worst of it

You’re conveniently leaving out the part that they only won 47 games because Butler got hurt right after the All-Star break and missed 17 straight games where they went 8-9. That was the only time the Wolves have made the playoffs in the past 16 seasons.

For the sake of this site I hope Atkinson is hired because if the Knicks hire Thibs every game they lose will have a bunch of people complaining it’s Thibs fault and saying they would’ve won if Atkinson was the coach. Hell even games they win people would be bitching because he played somebody too many minutes or they didn’t shoot enough 3pters. It will be even more nauseating than the tiresome Frank debates.

If we get to the point where we lose a gentleman’s sweep in the first round, I’m sure people will complain. People complained when we lost a hard fought series to the pacers in the second round. But I promise, I won’t complain.

I just think it’s funny that on a stats driven blog that also talks about sample size everyone is salivating over Atkinson and dissing Thibs when the stat that matters the most for coaching clearly favors Thibs over Atkinson.

I mean how many times have I been ridiculed (and probably rightfully so) for making excuses or trying to explain why a certain player is or isn’t living up to their potential but when we talk about coaches apparently their win-loss record isn’t a real indication of how good of a coach they are.

You coach the players your given. Rose and Noah were certainly good players before Thibs but they played like superstars under thibs. Butler became a legit all star under thibs. His record is a winning record. Period. And he did better with Minny than they did before or after him. These facts are irrefutable as is his coaching record.

I’m not saying Atkinson wouldn’t be good. But the love he gets is based on two decent seasons with The Nets. And I don’t get why it’s ok for him to not get along with Kyrie and KD but it’s not ok for Thibs to not get along with Wiggins and KAT. KD and Kyrie are legit all stars. Wiggins most certainly is not and with KAT it’s debatable bc he hasn’t achieved shit in his career yet despite some nice offensive numbers.

But I get it. Artkinson is a development guru and a thibs is a dinosaur.

Thibs won a playoff series where they won Game 7 on the road in Brooklyn and Nate freaking Robinson was the Bulls 2nd leading scorer for the entire series! That alone should put Thibs in the HOF lol.

when the stat that matters the most for coaching clearly favors Thibs over Atkinson.

Is this a joke? Do you think the top 10 coaches on the all-time wins list are the 10 best coaches ever?

I’ve already spent more time arguing about this than I should’ve. This decision won’t matter much–we’ll get good players and we’ll be good, or we won’t and we won’t.

The evidence that Thibs is suboptimal is staring us in the face. We’ve been in the bottom third of the league in 3PA every year since 2013-2014 and I’m personally getting a little sick of it, but I guess some people think our offensive schemes have been just dandy,

We haven’t made the dumb decision yet guys, we don’t have to talk ourselves into it yet! We can still hire the guy who could at least, like, probably tell you what true shooting percentage is if put on the spot.

I mean yeah his prior two coaching stints have pretty much ended in disaster for everyone involved, but have you considered the strong institutional culture of the New York Knicks? Things like that just don’t happen here.

I really don’t believe any coach could have made us good three point shooters. Our point guard rotation was Payton, Ntilikina and DSJ. After Morris, our most consistent three point shooter was Portis. Should we really have started Portis because three pointers are good? Let’s not play Robinson at all because he can’t shoot three pointers? Our offense was terrible and probably could have been better with different coaching (but probably our defense would have been worse). But let’s not pretend having Atkinson as coach would have suddenly made us a good three point shooting team.

From the Ringer piece Raven linked to…

Knicks fans aren’t as eager. Yet. This New York Daily News article stating that Thibodeau would be a “good hire” is the only endorsement I could find online. Surely they’ll come around. It seems many fans want former Nets coach Kenny Atkinson to fill the position over Thibs, an opinion I don’t fully understand since Atkinson is known for developing players, fostering good culture, and turning previously incapacitated rosters into fun League Pass teams with upside, while Thibodeau can do cool things like alienate an entire roster and go weeks without seeing the sun. I mean, what the hell?

Heh.

thenoblefacehumper:

We haven’t made the dumb decision yet guys, we don’t have to talk ourselves into it yet! We can still hire the guy who could at least, like, probably tell you what true shooting percentage is if put on the spot.

Shit like this is what I’m talking about. You really fucking think that Tom Thibodeau, a guy who was an ast coach on teams that went to the NBA Finals 3 times and won a championship who also was head coach of a team that won 62 games in a season is not as smart as you? Plus the guy was a head coach from 2010 thru 2019, not exactly the stone age.

Again man listen I’ll be thrilled if Atkinson is hired and gun to my head I’d choose Atkinson over Thibs. But my God it’s ridiculous the takes on here about what an awful coach Thibs is, all this coming from people who probably have never coached even a little league team in their lives but look at basketball reference and assume they are smarter than most NBA coaches.

BTW I coached my little brother and won championships in both baseball and basketball at the 14u levels so I know what I’m talking about! Granted this was in 2000 so I’m pretty old school but I can adapt if forced to coach today lol.

Again man listen I’ll be thrilled if Atkinson is hired and gun to my head I’d choose Atkinson over Thibs.

Why?

Also this stuff that Thibs has no idea how to coach on offense, in his 7 full seasons as head coach twice his offense was in the Top 5 and 3 other times they were in the Top 11 in offensive rating. No he isn’t D’Antoni and his teams didn’t take that many 3pters which of course is a concern but the guy isn’t exactly clueless on the offensive end.

On second thought..
I am beginning to be really intrigued by Jerry Stackhouse. I would not be mad if he got an interview, and the job. Stack kinda feels like the ideal coach for this situation. U would actually hire him before Atkinson. Say Stack were to be offered the job…would Miller stay on with him? I would love to see that

Shit like this is what I’m talking about. You really fucking think that Tom Thibodeau, a guy who was an ast coach on teams that went to the NBA Finals 3 times and won a championship who also was head coach of a team that won 62 games in a season is not as smart as you?

What a bizarre thing to say. I certainly did not weigh-in on Tom Thibodeau’s intelligence, nor did I compare it to mine.

I pointed out that by taking a cursory glance at Minnesota’s underlying stats under his coaching, it’s easy to come to the conclusion that he hasn’t embraced important offensive trends, hasn’t budged from his position of “pick 5 guys to run into the ground and ignore everyone else,” and doesn’t seem to be the defensive guru his reputation suggests.

If you disagree, the burden of proof is on you to point out why they took so few threes, why Jamal Crawford and Andrew freakin’ Wiggins had higher usage than a historical offensive talent in KAT, and why those Minnesota teams had such insane minutes distribution (and, what do you know, looked gassed in the playoffs).

Merely pointing out that they were nominally successful is silly. I don’t think there’s a coach in the history of the NBA that couldn’t cobble together a decent team with KAT and Butler in their primes. We can’t measure Thibs’ effect with precision, but you’ll have to excuse me if I take a look at the aforementioned stats and infer that, at a bare minimum, he was not a net positive.

all this coming from people who probably have never coached even a little league team in their lives but look at basketball reference and assume they are smarter than most NBA coaches.

I will have you know I am a hot commodity in the Miami-Dade County middle school basketball coaching circuit, sir.

*takes Rose colored glasses off (pun unintentionally intended)*
Truth is..as bad as things have been, the Knicks are really in a great position to build something good and sustainable. Problem is in years past- impatience quickly overtook faith and logical foundation building. Clearly the motto moving forward should be “DON’T FUCK THIS UP” . They should plaster that in every exec’s office. Winning 50 games every season feels great, and the Ewing era spoiled us in that regard. But I personally have no quarrel with young and improving talent on the floor working toward that 50 win plateau. None whatsoever. I can absolutely deal with losing 50 games if it means guys like RJ, Mitch, and Ntilikina are getting closer to being more like..I dunno..Grant Hill, Tyson Chandler, and Tony Allen. Who knows? Their ceilings could be higher, I’m just trying to come up with some kind of comp to make my point- it’s not an actual expectation. Anyway..so Rose & company should not let impatience get in the way- unless Giannis or Kawhi comes aboard lol. That’s how not to fuck this up. So far, Rose has made moves that imply patience and logical foundation building.

We shall see lol

I don’t think Thibs would be terrible, persay, but why would a team in our position as a pathetic laughingstock with little-to-no legimitate NBA talent pick him over the development guru who has already shown the ability to help teams in our position? Not sure why this is controversial. Seems pretty clear that the tier list right now for candidates is Atkinson > Thibs > anyone else > two hundred rats in a trench coat > Mark Jackson.

Really psyched that Premier League is coming back in June, but it’s gonna be very weird without fans.

But I’ll take it over zero live sports (unless you count Korean baseball)

How can we pull that off? Would Orlando be amenable to giving us Gordon for Randle? Or a 3 team trade that sends Randle to Sacto and we get Gordon with some high dollar guy going to Orlando with one of the Dallas picks goin to Orlando as well?

Yeah…. Aaron Gordon is just what we need…. a PF with a .511 TS% 30% from 3 and 68% from the line who doesn’t rebound either….. also has a year more on his contract than Randle…. Good move pitching in a Dal #1 for this gem!!!

If you want to make a trade with Orlando and pitch in a #1 try Mo Bamba for 30% of the salary.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Aaron+Gordon&player_id1_select=Aaron+Gordon&player_id1=gordoaa01&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Julius+Randle&player_id2_select=Julius+Randle&y2=2020&player_id2=randlju01&idx=bbr__players&player_id3_hint=Mo+Bamba&player_id3_select=Mo+Bamba&y3=2020&player_id3=bambamo01&idx=bbr__players

Good point..I just feel like Gordon’s game is a better fit with Mitch..but Randle is the better perimeter shooter..by a smidge lol. Sucks that there’s no real perimeter PF’s to trade for using Randle, unless you can stomach Love’s deal..or Blake Griffin. But dude may never be healthy again

I just feel like Gordon’s game is a better fit with Mitch

Gordon’s game would fit very nicely into the #11 seed

I’m not sure who would trade for Randle, even for essentially nothing in return.

A tweener big who can’t defend the perimeter or shoot the three very well — but wait — he also doesn’t defend the rim and turns it over a lot?

I don’t think there will be a line outside Rose’s door.

Wait..no..I think he missed it, and the exchange was more like “Do you make that shot? When do you work on it?”..somethin like that

Seems pretty clear that the tier list right now for candidates is Atkinson > Thibs > anyone else > two hundred rats in a trench coat > Mark Jackson.

that got me smiling this morning…thanks mike 🙂

that got me smiling this morning…thanks mike 🙂

No problem Geo haha. . . I remember reading something about rats starved of restaraunt trash turning to cannibalism and infanticide, so I figured that if Mark Jackson was a plausible candidate, a bunch of starving rats in a trench coat would probably also be desperate enough to try and coach the Knicks.

***Yeah, no thanks to Mark Jackson. I think we are all in agreement there.***

The Greek Chorus here is really pathetic. Mark Jackson will make the Knicks great again. He taught Charlie Ward everything there is to know about bringing religion to center court.

We’re gonna need Mark Jackson to teach Cole Anthony how to point guard

#Razor

Swift, you say in your own post that you don’t know enough to comment on about like half the guys you listed. Not exactly an inspiring argument. Also, I don’t think the opposing argument is that all coaches in the top 15 are terrible, but rather that being in the top 15 (or whatever arbitrary number you pick) is not a guarantee of excellent coaching (see: Brown, Mike). Of course many of the best coaches are going to be on the list, but that doesn’t mean that being on the list is in and of itself proof of coaching excellence, which is a nebulous and difficult to measure concept as it is.

I never said it was. But my point is that if a coach has a winning record over the course of his career, especially if its more than a few seasons, the chances are he’s a good coach.

Bold case for hiring Vinny Del Negro! Can’t say I agree, but respect the opinion.

In all seriousness, obviously, many of the best coaches will in fact have strong records/winning percentages. It does not logically follow that having a good record/winning percentage necessarily makes you a good coach, as you are basically arguing in the case of Thibodeau.

For someone who regularly rails against the alleged overuse of metrics, you’re being shockingly formulaic here. Context matters a lot! “We should ignore this guy’s glaring flaws because he has a good winning percentage” is a very bad argument.

I remember reading something about rats starved of restaraunt trash turning to cannibalism and infanticide

my favorite nyc rat story…back in the mid 8o’s i used to like to come down from school and stay at the soldiers and sailors club over on lexington…

like 3 or 4 am one sunday morning was walking back from the funhouse over on 11th with a buddy of mine…always loved the city in the early morning, it was like you had the whole place to yourself…about halfway from the club to the hotel walking up either 5th or 6th and saw this huge rat (i swear, it had to be like 10 plus pounds) crawl out from between some grate in the street…

it wasn’t so much the sight of the rat, but, just how huge it was and its ability to squeeze through the bars in the grate…it just dispelled any reason for being able to get its huge body through those relatively narrow spaces between the bars of the sewer grate…

The Bulls improved by 21 wins by replacing Del Negro with Thibs 🙂

Sorry just had to tease you with that fact TNFH, all in good fun.

Del Negro’s Bulls outperformed their pythagorean record by 5 games. Thibs’ Bulls outperformed it by 1.

These are equally meaningless facts (unless you want to attribute Derrick Rose going from a league average-ish guard in his second season to an MVP candidate in his third to Thibs) but just teasing ya back.

Like I said, this isn’t a hugely consequential decision. I’d take Thibs + good roster decisions over Atkinson + less good roster decisions 100% of the time. There’s just such an obviously better alternative to Thibs in this case!

As part of the anti-Thibs group I’m happy to acknowledge that his overall record is really good. From the beginning I’ve been saying that I think he was an excellent coach in Boston and Chicago – I think he basically cracked the code on NBA defense during that period. I tend to agree that most coaches are only making a difference at the margin but if you get someone who is successfully innovating strategically I do think you can find yourself in a situation where a coach is a legitimate difference maker. Thibs was that for a time.

However, the league has been evolving dramatically over the last decade. In 2010-2011, his coach of the year season, the median team attempted 17.7 3s per game. This year it was 33.5 and every team averaged at least 27.5. That’s an extreme change in the way teams play offense and consequently things that worked defensively even ten years ago may not work now. Thibs built his entire defensive system around overloading the strong side and protecting the rim at all costs. However those costs are a lot higher than they used to be. It’s possible he’s capable of adapting but he was extremely rigid about sticking by that system in Minnesota despite its failures.

I’m not saying he’s an awful coach now or anything like that, just that I think there’s real reasons to focus more on his Minnesota tenure than what came before it, and that part of his resume is pretty shaky.

No one seems to be considering the possibility that Rose ends the “build via draft” phase after this year’s pick. I think it’s fairly likely he’s going to start adding veteran talent via free agency and cashing in some of that young talent and those excess picks in trades. I’d venture to guess the only untouchables are Robinson and Barrett. Ntilikina, Knox, the Clipper’s pick, the 2 Dallas picks, and even some of our future 1st rounders are all assets that can be used to create a mix of young and veteran talent that can make the playoffs next year and still have years of upside. That’s a Thibs team.

Shooting a lot of 3 pointers is only smart basketball if you have good 3 point shooters.

What good is some guy that shoots 3s at 30% clip if you can run plays that get you reasonably close to 45% on “high quality” mid range shots and draw some fouls while you are at it?

The whole point of the 3 point revolution was to avoid the very inefficient longer and tougher 2 pointers. It was not to just shoot more 3s.

The T-Wolves didn’t have the right players to shoot a lot of 3s. If they shot of lot of 3s, it would have been bad coaching. Give Thibs a team of sharp shooters and if they still aren’t shooting 3s then you have a legitimate reason to argue he doesn’t understand the modern game.

He has spoken about the efficiency of corner 3s loads of times. He understand the basic arithmetic. He just hasn’t had the right players. He was maximizing the efficiency of the team he had.

No one seems to be considering the possibility that Rose ends the “build via draft” phase after this year’s pick.

Even if he did, there’s no way that they have enough assets to acquire enough players to be a good team in year one (they have one above average player and one other good prospect, plus hopefully whoever they draft), so it would still be a waste of Thibs (Everyone plays 36 minutes a game on the march to 10th in the East).

Mills and Perry also tried to end the “build via the draft” phase after RJ Barrett and it was terrible.

I remember when Thibs was the Bulls coach one of the things mentioned about his defensive system was not allowing corner 3pters. Now I don’t know if they were actually good at limiting corner 3pters, dont know if there are synergy stats back then for stuff like that, but I do know that 62 win season the Bulls were 1st in opponent 3pt% and 1st in fewest 3pters made while allowing the 4th fewest 3pt attempts. So obviously those Bulls teams knew the importance of defending the 3pter but as mentioned above it is one thing to defend 17 3pters a game compared to 30 per game nowadays.

It’s hard to take Kyrie Irving criticism seriously. I’d take Durant criticism more seriously, except he hasn’t actually played for Atkinson! So what the fuck is his problem? Heck, Kyrie has barely even played for Atkinson and they were still a playoff team without either of them.

But again, if the Knicks end up with a superstar and he wants Atkinson out, I’ll call him a cab right away. 😉

Oh true, I mean a legit one. If the Brow says he’ll come to New York, but only if they bounce Atkinson, then I’d kill Kenny (I know, I’m a bastard).

Now I have South Park on the brain. I’ll never look at Atkinson the same way again

On a serious note, I recall the atkinson was reputed to be good with developing players but got some criticism for out of timeout plays and stuff like that.

We are in true offseason mode

bet you ain’t got no cool rodent related stories to share…

actually, you know – i partly blame you, bruno and everyone else here for my relatively recent interest in world events – and, tuning in to the news, cuz, i’m way too lazy for primary resources…although, i guess a video recording could be considered primary…the thought of consuming hundreds of pages of non-fiction detailing in depth just how degraded some of my fellow human beings are seems completely demoralizing…reality, live and in color…

cuz, i’m way too lazy for primary resources

lemme stop you there, uncle geo

We’re just talking about the next coach who’ll be fired two and a half years in, having inherited a dogshit roster full of “upside” with no viable path to even an 8 seed, nevermind actual contention. It’s fucking irrelevant.

I mean it’s kind of like discussing which flavor of failure you prefer. Butter pecan, or pistachio? Either way it’s still failure. Sorry to be on Team Pessimist but until this team shows me something I’m going to assume it’s 29 wins per year for the rest of eternity.

“Their team 3PT% was ,357, 19th in the league, and would’ve been better if not for Thibs’ own decisions regarding playing time.”

I’m not a scout that watched all the T-Wolves games, but a good coach would not be against taking all 3s. He would evaluate his talent and realize that even below average 3 point shooters occasionally get good enough opportunities to take them given the location and that player’s preference. In those case they would be encouraged and the efficiency would be fine.

JK47:
I mean it’s kind of like discussing which flavor of failure you prefer. Butter pecan, or pistachio? Either way it’s still failure. Sorry to be on Team Pessimist but until this team shows me something I’m going to assume it’s 29 wins per year for the rest of eternity.

In this case, the answer is always pistachio — especially if its from Saffron & Rose.

Perry is a placeholder with little real authority. He’s a well-respected guy in basketball circles, so no harm in keeping him around until the right guy comes along.

It would be nice tho to have the parallel universe option and see How Many decades it would take to Perry/Mills to make the Knicks contenders and also How !

“Perry is literally in the same position he was in during Mills’ tenure. So, if he’s a wildly incompetent basketball person, then that already says something about the people Rose is bringing in, no?”

See my prior post.

I think Perry is terrible. I can’t evaluate the rest of the management team, but poaching from Utah and OKC is more encouraging that poaching from losing organizations. Hopefully Perry will be out after this year.

Sound like Thibs may be in the drivers seat. According to a report, he’s already making feeler calls to assemble a staff. If true, the Knicks will finally have a competent coach with a winning history, deep playoff experience as both an assistant and head coach, and a focus on defense.

Honestly, we already have a competent coach (Miller). I’m not convinced Thibs is better, but changing coaches is one of the things new front offices do, Thibs is a competent coach too. I’m not sure why you say now we will have a focus on defense. True, that’s Thibs’ reputation, but his Minnesota defenses were bad, while the Knicks defense last year was something like 21st, and much better than the Knick’s offense

How did Lenny Wilkins work out?

And Brown had just won his ring, and got narrowly Horryed out of another!

PLAYERS WIN AND LOSE BASKETBALL GAMES

I think it’s more a statement that past success doesn’t necessarily have a connection with coaching a rebuilding team. In other words, Larry Brown had literally just coached a team to a title and then he came here and it was a terrible fit because the team was really bad and he still coached like a guy who was trying to win every game. And then they tried to do “win now” moves to match Brown and the win now moves were terrible.

Think about it – would the Knicks have traded Trevor Ariza for Steve Francis if they were just trying to develop their young players? No, right? “Win now” moves when you’re not winning now are terrible and they’re often driven (in part, at least. Obviously the GM has to be agreeable) by a coach who is used to winning and wants to win as soon as possible, whatever the cost. Unlike a developmental guy, who will have some patience.

For once, they should try hiring a developmental coach while they are a bad team. It would be a nice twist.

Let’s say that Popovich, Rivers and Atkinson were all available right now and wanted to join the Knicks (Extreme Fantasy)
Would you still go with the developmental guru ?

My point is:
Do we prefer developmental coach or we re just not fully convinced that Thibs can be better than Atkinson’s projected career?

All a coach does is add or subtract value to the players he is given. His record is a function of the players he is given plus the value he adds or subtracts.

These are some of the questions to ask

1. is he using his players correctly and effectively given their skills
2. do the lineups make sense
3. are the players responding to him and playing hard for him
4. are the players fit
5. are the players prepared for a variety of circumstances against different teams and matchups
6. is the team running good plays out of timeouts
7. is the team making successful adjustments to the game plan if the original plan isn’t working
8. does it seem like the the advance scouting and game plans make sense
9. are the young players getting better

Some people may not like aspects of Thibs coaching style

Some people may want to continue building out of the draft and developing young players so they prefer Atkinson

However, anyone saying Thibs is not a very good coach is wrong. We should thank God he may be willing to coach for Dolan and the Knicks. If we hire him, he’ll get more out our players than anyone else available.

And yes, I would prefer that we continue to attempt to build via the draft and minor FA acquisitions/trades for at least another year, and hire a developmental coach or just stick with Miller for another year. If another team wants Thibs, they can have him. My guess is that he will be available next year as well. He’s not exactly a hot commodity out there.

What I don’t understand is why there are no rumors about who the Nets are considering for coach. You would think Thibodeau would be on their list but this never comes up in articles about Thibodeau as a possible coach for the Knicks. The only thing I can think of is the Nets are expecting Mike D’Antoni to be available and to want to coach for them. He would be a good fit and, if there is some gentleman’s agreement in place, it would explain why they parted ways with Atkinson.

The Nets are probably inching towards becoming a star-ran organization with the firing of Kenny Atkinson and the benching of Jarrett Allen for DeAndre Jordan. I think all signs point to Tyron Lue for the Nets job.

I do wanna stray away from coaching though. I think we should be paying more attention to Devin Vassell out of FSU. He’s a plug-and-play 3&D type who has a ton of offensive potential. I know a lot of the discussion has been point-guard centric, but I’m more focused on getting shooting and defense on this team. Vassell’s shooting numbers check out (over 50% from 2 and over 40% from 3), his defensive counting stats are good, he has a prototypical wingspan, and the tape checks out on him too. Talks here are centered around Halliburton vs Hayes vs Ball, but I think Vassell might be the drafts best two-way player and has a top 3 ceiling in the draft class. I also think he has the most natural fit in this class between RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson, so he’s my guy. Ideally we can get him with our pick and hopefully Vernon Carey is available with the Clippers pick.

Iiterally put down Cryptonomicon to receive the latest ptmilo offering and this is the gift I get

here is my cryptonomicon review:

i really, really liked the first two thirds of it, even though his theory of money motifs don’t get me out of bed in the morning.

also i just read dfw book on the history of infinity. i got a
little worried when the neal stephenson intro seemed more like a defense of booby knight’s boorish table manners than anything particularly encouraging about the psychedelic sideways 8 lectures that lay ahead. and then i read it and understood why. feels heretical to write so need to add maybe i just wasn’t up to it.

What happens with Ntilikina and Knox?

Rose has no draft ties to Ntilikina and Knox. He can be objective about whether they fit his vision for the team long term or not. If the stories of prioritizing a penetrating, scoring, outside shooting PG are true (not sure how Ball fits into that since he’s a bad shooter), then he will probably move on from Ntilikina. Ntilikina is going to be a high quality role player for some team, but not on the team it appears the Knicks want to build.

He may give Knox one more year because of the ties to Perry and Calipari.

I wish he’d talk to the media so we could get a read on his views about trading draft picks and adding veterans.

djphan:
i like vassell too but you have to be careful about 3pt %…. his ft% sort of lines up with a guy who’s probably not going to be a 40% 3pt shooter… he might be ok….

his offensive game is a bit limited so i don’t know much about his offensive upside but he is a solid prospect…. his teammate patrick williams is another to watch and i have them both in my top 10…

I’m optimistic about Vassell’s offensive game because he makes quick decisions with the ball and can shoot both off the catch and off the bounce. I don’t think he’ll ever be a guy you run a half court offense through, but I do believe he’s the type of player who would fit on any team in any offense. The 40% from 3PT range I agree is a little noisy, but between the 3s (106 3PA on the year) and the free throws (65 FTA on the year) you can argue either way because the sample size is relatively small. Either way it’s inconclusive and I’m using his shooting form in tandem with the numbers to make a judgment on if he’s a good shooter or not.

I just want to see Mitch, Vassell, Barrett, and Ntilikina play defense together under a good head coach, and then if we suck I’d take Cade Cunningham over any of the point guards in this class so it works out for us any way.

I didn’t know much about Vassell until I started reading some mock draft write ups on him, looks like a Top 10 pick worth looking at if the Knicks are picking 7-9 and Haliburton is gone. Might come down to Hayes or Vassell as the best guard available when the Knicks pick?

I was just bemoaning the other day that he was falling out of the public consciousness a bit and he came out with that amazing op-ed. Well done by him.

Speaking of documentaries, I caught a few minutes of the Epstein one and Stratomatic’s favorite primary source comes across as a real shitbag. But, then again, I guess that’s why Strat is (was) wrong about everything. Alas.

Speaking of Jabbar I’ve always wondered why a guy like Porzingis never said to Jabbar, “here’s $500,000… come up here for a month and teach me the mechanics and the footwork of the skyhook.”

But bazingis would rather work on his cross-over dribble………

If he had any inside threat like that you could never play him with a small and THEN he could take the big away from the basket sometime to open up the inside for Luka et. al.

“Speaking of Jabbar I’ve always wondered why a guy like Porzingis never said to Jabbar, “here’s $500,000… come up here for a month and teach me the mechanics and the footwork of the skyhook.”

I’ve been asking that for decades about a lot of players.

bobneptune:
Speaking of Jabbar I’ve always wondered why a guy like Porzingis never said to Jabbar, “here’s $500,000… come up here for a month and teach me the mechanics and the footwork of the skyhook.”

How about tutoring MitchRob? Bringing Kareem home to NYC worth major karma points.

RLJ, those reports could be right, I wasn’t disputing their veracity. I was just expressing my distaste for fore ordaining a particular style of play.

I’m especially unhappy if that management wish is real because, a: our current team is completely unsuited to that style of play and b: the players needed for that style of play are the most valued players on the market. So we will have to completely retool the team and be buying high on the players needed to do it. As you said, the smarter and more patient teams could be interested in Ntilikina. If we are planning to get rid of him you have to wonder about our new management’s smarts and/or patience.

Kareem’s offensive repertoire for half-court sets included skyhooks, turn-around jumpers and one handed shots. He was so practiced at Sky Hooks that he could make them well north of 50% of the time. Based on the numbers, what Kareem did not do was capture offensive rebounds in proportion to the rest of his game – averaging only 2.4 offensive boards per game for his career. This was much lower than most Hall of Fame centers (Moses Malone averaged 5.1). Similar to Patrick Ewing (2.3), Kareem’s shooting momentum took him away from the basket which would affect his offensive rebound numbers. Kareem and Patrick averaged above 50% from the field so the trade-off was probably worth it. Considering the lousy shooting that his Knicks teammates perpetrate each game, MitchRob should add offensive skills like the Sky Hook and increase his workload. Any evolution in his offensive game added to his slams and putbacks is more welcome than our current inefficient scoring options.

Although a RFA…Bogdonavic on Sacto would be a positive addition…just needs some coaching on shot selection

I’m still scouring the landscape for a SG and PG that can shoot.

This is exactly the difficulty with Rose’s strategy. Such players are not easy to find. We’d be better off being patient, looking for good players in the draft and waiting for good trade opportunities to come along. I know I’m sounding Strat like in this, but he was right this is a good way of team building.

Is that true…Bruce Lee 30 for 30? I’m all over that….

howdy pepper…hope all is well in the world for you…yes sir…our very own comic book resources has a preview on the upcoming show: “Be Water”…

Swiftandabundants point is another example of what’s bad about Rose’s reputed strategy. Randle is our best scorer, but not a good three point shooter. He’s reasonably young and paid a reasonable salary for a twenty and ten guy. But the reputed strategy seems to mean we should ditch him and play a more Rockets or Golden State style. We will get pennies on the dollar for Randle. It’s better to find a way to build a more balanced team around him.

I will reiterate my view that anyone fretting about a well-run team swooping in and stealing Frank Ntilikina out from under us need not lose any sleep over the matter

doesn’t seem like our beloved knickerbockers will be heading back out there this year…i guess that’s a good thing…

not sure who i’ll be rooting for once the season resumes…maybe the bucks and grizz…

This site has taught me not to put any stock in the eye-test, but it’s still really hard for me to understand why George Floyd needed one autopsy, let alone two. It’s like checking basketball reference to see if Steph Curry can shoot 3pters.

“Randle is our best scorer, but not a good three point shooter. He’s reasonably young and paid a reasonable salary for a twenty and ten guy. But the reputed strategy seems to mean we should ditch him and play a more Rockets or Golden State style. We will get pennies on the dollar for Randle. It’s better to find a way to build a more balanced team around him.”

I’m in the minority among Knicks fans. I like Randle. I just don’t like him on a team with Robinson, RJ Barrett, Payton and other non shooters. I think his down year was almost entirely the result of who he was playing with and asking him to do too much as a primary option. This is one of many reasons I don’t like Perry. The free agents he signs every year are either terrible or don’t fit together.

I’m not suggesting dumping Randle for pennies on the dollar, but I think if we want to maximize Robinson, he should play with a stretch 4. Randle would do better on a team like the T-Wolves with a stretch 5 like Towns, playing center in small ball lineups, or off the bench. Maybe if Robinson can stretch his game next year and RJ improves his shooting it will all work better with Randle.

but it’s still really hard for me to understand why George Floyd needed one autopsy, let alone two

The first one was needed to complete Derek Chauvin’s run of thirteen consecutive dismissed conduct complaints.

It would be nice if there was some equivalent value player we could trade Randle for but who was good at different things than him. I don’t know who that would be though.

***I’m guessing you got a curfew alert on your phone too donnie…first time I’ve ever seen one of those…strange days indeed…***

1pm curfew (on top of a stay-at-home order), plus the national guard stationed up the street from me. Should be interesting….

Oh shit, I think this is correct

I didn’t know that it was even a secret. I thought he just changed his screen name.

Oh shit, I think this is correct
I didn’t know that it was even a secret. I thought he just changed his screen name.

What are you talking about?

“Scorpio Dragon
June 1, 2020 at 10:24 pm
Bruno Almeida:
And players are now apparently furious that MSG has stayed completely quiet about BLM… I mean, what else could we expect from Dolan.

Well, good luck trying to get decent free agents while he’s in charge.”

OH, please……

Had the Knicks taken SGA and Donavan Mitchell instead of Frank and Knox both Kyrie and Durant would be Knicks today for better or worse. They signed with NJ because the Knick’s roster was devoid of talent because of years of bad drafting and the KP fiasco.

They didn’t get rejected by FA’s because Dolan doesn’t virtue signal hard enough. They got rejected because of over a decade of awful management. Dolan is responsible for the bad management.

I read a poll yesterday where 96% of Americans believe the cop involved should be charged with murder and rightly so. You can’t get 96% of Americans to poll on one side of whether the Sun will rise in the east this morning tomorrow FFS. There is no discussion here.

The Hennepin County DA is Keith Ellison who is AA and one of the most progressive Congressmen of the last decade and former DNC vice chair so I’m fairly certain those responsible will be charged to the maximum the law allows in the fullness of time.