NY Post: Superagent Rich Paul lays out Mitchell Robinson, Knicks vision

I assume most of the players are working out in a gym somewhere in the same way they would in the off season. It’s kind of a blessing in disguise for very young players to have the extra time to work on their handle, shot, FTs, and watch film etc… Hopefully we’ll see more progress from Mitch and the rest of the Knicks “if” the season ever resumes this year. If not, next year. I love Mitch as a prospect, but I’d hate to see him limited to dunks and put backs long term because he has no handle or shot. I’d like to see him become more of an option and tougher to shut down because he can do more things.

Let’s be real, the young players who should be practicing are instead mango juuling and surfing TikTok for the latest insufferable memes

Lol John Wall, you already celebrating 4/20 like I am?

Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: Facilitate a 3 team trade with Utah and Washington that includes Randle and Gobert with Wall coming to the Knicks.

No way, man. John Wall sucks.

But you brought up Paul… Totally different scenario, and one I’m even more willing to bet on now than before. With all the wear he saved on this season being truncated, it’s fair to expect him to be able to come close to this season’s production over the next two seasons. Maybe it only comes in bits and spurts over 60 games instead of 80, but I’m ok with that.

When I was watching that Knicks Heat game 5, by the way, I realized that Patrick Ewing was 3 months away from his 37th birthday. Yeah, he was nowhere near his peak. But he was far from washed.

I will take Chris Paul’s age 35 and 36 seasons at $40mm, provided we are willing to do smart things around that, the way the Thunder did. We’d still have half the salary cap to make smart deals with.

Think of it this way: the Knicks are a hospital with a mask shortage, and Chris Paul is an N95 mask at a 300% markup. Is it good value in vaccum? No. But I can get enough value from him to justify the cost.

Rich Paul has an odd way of promoting his client.

No, absolutely not

I’m all about getting back more picks but we do have a surplus of first round picks now. Including this year’s draft we have 8 first round picks over the next 5 years. I’m not sure if the strategy should be to continue to stockpile picks at this point ESPECIALLY if it means taking on a hugely onerous contract like John Wall. With CP3 at least he can still play but its still a lot to take on.

IMO, we might actually be in a position now to make a trade for a disgruntled star with all of our extra picks. I’m not advocating a clear the cupboard for Melo type trade BUT we could do a trade for a star and not gut our roster or clear out all of our picks. Remember we all ready were thin on picks when we traded for Melo cause we had used some to clear cap space for 2010.

We are in a very different scenario now cause we have these team options we can decline to open up cap space. We have an expiring contract now with Randle, who despite his warts is a young player with useful skills that team might want to take on (and could pick up a team option on if he worked out for them).

So, I don’t know. Just spitballing something crazy here but we could make a play for AD this summer and do a trade for Donovan Mitchell. The Lakers were definitely title contenders but now the playoffs may not happen and even if they do, they will be weird. Lebron is still Lebron but he is getting older. Without Lebron, then its AD carrying the load completely on a team without a lot of future building assets. Coronavirus might have totally changed his way of thinking. We could renounce the team options and find a trade for Randle and sign AD outright to a max. Then trade a handful of our picks for Donovan. Would love to do that without giving up RJ obviously.

On Mitch’s instagram he’s destroying dudes in the gym off the dribble which is funny because in the NBA he can’t dribble more than once.

Rest assured that no matter how many picks are there, they’ll be liquidated for whatever disgruntled flashy volume scorer that hits the market before the All-Star Break next year or the year after. Beal, Booker, Mitchell, McCollum? Hell, could add LaVine and Collin Sexton to the mix before long.

It’s weird that Buddy Hield started just two-thirds of his games this season but still managed to be 15th in FGA.

Hubert: When I was watching that Knicks Heat game 5, by the way, I realized that Patrick Ewing was 3 months away from his 37th birthday. Yeah, he was nowhere near his peak. But he was far from washed.

That’s funny, I thought he limped his way through game 5 vs. Miami, had a TS% of .470 vs. the Hawks in 27 mpg and partially tore his achilles during the Indiana series. Then in 1999-2000, he was paid $15 mill (top-5 in the NBA) to put up at or below league-average advanced numbers. If that isn’t washed, I don’t know what is.

Not saying Paul is the same case, just correcting that perception.

Jowles, just curious. You usually poo-poo any trade scenario for any star.

Given The Knicks asset situation and cap flexibility situation, what is trade that you would be ok with or who is a young, rising talent that you would want? Is Donovan Mitchell no good for you? Is there a realistic trade that we could put together that you would like?

I mean, we could potentially trade 3 first round picks and still have 5 over the next 5 years. To me that is very different than trading our last remaining picks for Melo.

I wouldn’t want Beal but Mitchell, given his age, I think could be compelling. You seem to be on the conservative side when it comes to making any trades for upgrades. I know you’re gonna say win curve, but at some point shouldn’t we try to upgrade at least to a place where we have one bona fide young star on the team? I mean Donovan and Robinson sounds like a pretty good place to start as far as building a young team.

Who are some young players you would trade for and what would you give up that is reasonable without emptying the cupboard. We’ve been shitty for a long time now. We are in a position that is pretty good pick wise and cap wise. At what point do you start to make some moves?

If you’re trading for Wall with the expectation that he’ll provide value on the court, then that is a big mistake. He’s probably done as a Top-15 starting PG, and may miss a ton of time with debilitating leg injuries. He makes $41m, $44m, and $47m over the next three seasons.

That said, if the Wiz offer a load of picks to take him, it’s worth considering. The Knicks are not close to any kind of success right now. If we have to saddle ourselves with Wall to re-stock the cupboard with a bunch of picks from a talent-poor Wizards team, that could be part of a good long term strategy.

Washington doesn’t have a load of surplus pick to offer, so I can’t see why they would dump Wall with sweetener unless they have a rockin’ FA signing in the works, which seems unlikely.

Speaking of Washington, anyone like Davis Bertans as a UFA target? Great 3-pt shooting on high volume, sort of like a more athletic Novakaine. Or are Latvians not in the cards post-KP fiasco?

According to the Trade Machine, if the Knicks trade Randle, Gibson, and Ellington to Washington for John Wall, it projects that BOTH teams will lose ten additional games. Subtraction by addition and subtraction?

I get what you are saying but if the Raptors didn’t have DeRozan, they can’t trade for Kawhi.

C’mon now. Kawhi was, at the time of the trade, a top 5 player in the league, perhaps top 3. Are you really advocating for carrying a bloated contract for a midrange dinosaur in the unlikely event that a true superstar, in the midst of his prime, demands to be traded for reasons totally unrelated to winning?

Let’s also remember that the Raptors had a 59-win core. You bet your ass that if the Knicks ever have a 59-win squad and can acquire an All-NBA 1st Teamer at any cost to future flexibility, I will co-sign that deal eight days a week.

The Kawhi deal was a heist on the level of Pau Gasol-to-the-Lakers. But it was the result of incredible luck and a disciplined approach to team-building. The Knicks don’t make their own luck like that. Haven’t in twenty years. I’m genuinely not coming after you with this reference, but the Knicks followed up their strong 2012-13 performance by trading multiple draft picks for Andrea Bargnani. That’s not something that Masai would have done following the best season in Raptors history.

You even say you wouldn’t trade for Harden because he can’t take Houston all the way, which is crazy to me.

No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that even with a player of Harden’s caliber, the Rockets have failed to even reach the Finals. How do you think Beal would fare? Booker? (Note that neither of those “superstars” are leading teams anywhere close to a playoff slot.

I’m not a championship-or-bust guy. I too want a playoff team with young players. I just don’t want the team’s ceiling to be 45 wins and a first-round exits, followed by desperation trades to kick us up to 48 wins and maybe a 2nd-round sweep exit.

Utah is a top 10 team, they’re not trading a 23 year old all star, least of all to a team with one good player.

I’m not just talking about lip service to “changing the culture.” But being respectable, decently good, a young playoff team that can win a first round series. That has 5 or 6 years of being that caliber of a team ahead of them…that would be a HUGE win for this franchise in my opinion.

Right. And I’m telling you that you’re not going to get that by trading the farm for Brad Beal. You’re going to get that by avoiding the bonafide scrubs we’ve drafted in the lottery for three consecutive years. And you’re going to get that by making organizational decisions like telling your head coach that there is no circumstance in which he should be playing for a meaningless W against the Hawks, one that had the potential to fuck up your lottery slot, but became especially egregious when the season ended abruptly. Go back to 2018 when the 29-win Knicks were separated from the Mavericks by 5 wins in a draft when the teenage Euroleague MVP was not expected to be a top-2 pick.

Do you know how good the Knicks would look if they had tanked harder in the last three or four years? We got unlucky last year but the previous years’ shitty lottery showing were the result of catastrophic mismanagement on and off the court. Everyone in the Knicks’ front office and on the coaching staff should have been fired after the Ndour game winner, but instead we got more years of stupidity, winning late-season games at the expense of a better chance at top lottery pick.

Stop and consider that the Mavericks are going to be a playoff team for a solid decade without even trying.

Why aim that low?

Watch when it happens this year of all years.

Going to chime in from my day job where a barrel of WTI oil is currently trading for -35 dollars. It started the day at 17 bucks. Sadly, this is unlikely to mean that people will be paid to fill up their cars the next time they go to the gas station.

I have had a feeling for years that I would never see a Knicks championship but the world today provided me a sign that anything is possible.

geo:
on a positive note:

– so cal traffic – ain’t that bad at the moment
– pollution is down all over the place
– i’m able to work in my underwear
– my house is cleaner than it has ever been before

lol same here in ny!

>Going to chime in from my day job where a barrel of WTI oil is currently trading for -35 dollars. It started the day at 17 bucks. Sadly, this is unlikely to mean that people will be paid to fill up their cars the next time they go to the gas station.<

I don't know much about the oil market or futures, but that's screaming that the market is broken. Someone or some entity may be being forced to sell. I don't care how large the glut is or how hard it will be to store excess oil, that's way too extreme to reflect the underlying economic reality. Someone, somewhere, with a 3-5 year outlook is going to find a way to make a lot of money in the oil market going long.

Good point Hubert

Jowles, you partly retort to me by responding with all of the mistakes draft wise that The Knicks have made, which doesn’t really make sense. We can’t undo Kevin Knox or Frank. And seriously…RJ is a scrub?

But what we can do is potentially make a good trade for a disgruntled rising star who is only 23 without crippling our cap OR depleting our picks/assets. I keep mentioning Mitchell and you keep responding with Bradley Beal.

Yes, you are right. If we’d not picked Knox or Frank or had drafted a few slots higher we’d be in a better position now than we are. But we didn’t do those things. I’m focusing on the future, not the past.

Here is another question for you. Ignore the likelihood of him wanting to come here, would you sign AD right now to a max contract outright? He’s theoretically available and would cost us nothing but cap space. Would you do that despite our win curve?

If you can get one of your big 3, you get him and you pay the salary. Then you try to keep moving forward from there.

I don’t disagree with much of what preceded this. I’m probably lower on Mitchell than you are, and I sure as hell ain’t gonna re-litigate KP but besides that stuff I think you were mostly correct until this part.

Here’s the problem: when you pay for the #3 guy before you have the #1 and #2, that makes it much, much harder (in many cases literally impossible) to get those (more important) pieces.

It’s not like the Jazz are going to do us a favor and peg Mitchell’s cost to his objective value. His reputation is “23 year old all-star” and thus the price for him is going to reflect that. In your terms, we’d be paying #1 guy money for a #3 guy.

So we clear out our asset chest to get him, and then next year we have to give him something like 5/$180M. This all happens, again, before we have the players we need to contend with him. So how are we going to get those guys with no trade assets and limited cap flexibility?

This is basically just a version of your standard win curve argument, but maybe we won’t talk past each other if I frame using a specific situation.

“They shortened their rebuild by years grabbing KP from us for garbage.”

While this may be true the jury is far from out. They may have also hung a huge albatross around their neck. Or as Chico Marx says in “A Night at the Opera in his best Italian immigrant accent, “Hey Stuffy…. Don’t be so glad!”

KP sat out 10 consecutive games needing a PRP injection on his “good” 24 year old knee. I’ve had lots of horses get PRP injections and they don’t do that for trivial conditions.

Upon returning from his 10 game hiatus mid season they felt it necessary to manage his load by skipping 6 of the next 24 games after skipping only 1 of the first 32….. so that tells you they are concerned about his long term health as they should be.

He DID rebound a lot better but playing with a playmaking savant who demands extra attention he shot 3.5 more 3’s a game but made almost 5% LESS than the previous season. He TS% increased by a whole .001 to a very mediocre .540!

I wouldn’t quite be taking a victory lap with him just yet at 151M

It seems like I messed up that link, so here it is again:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Donovan Mitchell&player_id1_select=Donovan Mitchell&player_id1=mitchdo01&player_id2_select=Tim Hardaway Jr.&player_id2=hardati02&idx=players

Note that 2p%, 3p%, and TS% are each within .001 over a large sample. eFG% clocks in at a whopping .005 disparity.

This guy is going to kill whatever team extends him. The Jazz are smart to be looking for a sucker now. For once, let it not be us.

As far as Donovan Mitchell is concerned (or any other player for that matter) There is a price where any player makes sense. DSJr’s value might be the proverbial “warm bucket of spit” but there is an equilibrium price for every asset. TGhere is some price where Mitchell makes sense to the Knicks and it is their managements responsibility to be proactive and see if something THAT MAKES SENSE FOR THEM can be done. If not move on.

The Knicks should be in the positive asset acquisition business. The have 8 #1 picks in the next 5 drafts plus Mitch and that’s about it for value. Maybe Barrett too but wing players that can’t shoot at all and don’t really excel at anything…. I’m not looking for lot there. I think his “rep” is more valuable than he is.

Well, I think this is the first time one KBer has told another to strip. And it was uncle geo, of all people.

>Here’s the problem: when you pay for the #3 guy before you have the #1 and #2, that makes it much, much harder (in many cases literally impossible) to get those (more important) pieces.<

I agree 100%.

I don't have good response other than if you keep waiting to sign your #1 you may be old, grey and balding like me before you actually land him. 🙂

With solid cap management (and to be fair to current management they have done that much well) you can usually fit your #1 and #2 under the cap before running into issues to fill out the rest. The key would be not overpaying for any of the role players or a marginal #3 before you have those other slots filled.

If you think Mitchell is not a #2 option, I'd disagree, but that doesn't mean I'm right. I'd go for it in the same way I would have signed KP. I think KP has the way higher all around upside, but the injury risk I guess kind of makes them similar values.

Honestly, I think we may already have prospects for #2 and #3 in Mitch/RJ. if Mitch can add anything to his game he can be a #3 and for all we know RJ could blossom into a #2 or maybe even a #1. We don't have a clear #1 though and that's the toughest thing to get. So I agree we need to be careful. We need space and assets to try to land whoever that may be.

Mike Honcho: Since you’re a principal (IRRC), what do you think public school district budgets will be looking like in the fall?

Mike, I am indeed expecting budgets to be very tight, and I have no idea how things will look in the fall but I am bracing for the worst. I was just discussing that in a meeting today, in fact. Also, a teacher just informed me that she’s retiring and I don’t know if the funding will be there for a replacement. The good news for you is that ELLs require mandated services and if you can get on that teacher pathway you should have no trouble getting work well into the future (although posting on this site raises questions about your intelligence :-D). As a para, it’s a bit murkier, I’m not sure if there is any mandate for bilingual para’s so in NYC you could get boxed out by seniority rules. I was once told that a para is a para is a para. There are seniority rules for teachers as well but you can’t replace a qualified bilingual teacher with a non-qualified teacher. Same is true with Special Ed certified teachers. My school only has like 2% ELL students and we share a bilingual teacher with another school. She is guaranteed to be on our team next year no matter what how the budget situation turns out. OTOH, we’ve never employed a para on the basis of being bilingual.

Hope this is helpful. Let me know what you decide and how things turn out.

>Adding Donovan Mitchell, and then having to pay him 5/$180M, to this team (minus whatever we’d have to trade to get him i.e. almost certainly RJ and/or Mitch) does not do that.<

I'd be WAY more willing to give up picks than promising players because have an excess of picks and a shortage of promising players. If that can't be done, then obviously we shouldn't do it, But you are right, the question is more theoretical than anything else. I'm simply not opposed to paying a #2 option the max.

Whew, I just got whiplash from Z-man sounding so competent and knowledgeable.

; )

Leon’s memo (should look like)
1 Build around high character and team ball
2 Don’t rush trades/Wait for bargains and garage sales
3 Trade Randle

Knew Your Nicks:
Leon’s memo (should look like)
1 Build around high character and team ball
2 Don’t rush trades/Wait for bargains and garage sales
3 Trade Randle

At least this is an improvement over having to tell everyone in the front office to stop trading away 1st round picks for overpaid, crappy players… I hope

It was exactly 69 degrees here in SE Portland at 4:20 PM today. It truly is a special day.

If Leon can trade DSJ for… anything…. we should immediately retire his shirt.

Last year at this time I was with my son in the Viper Room in W Hollywood, feeling no pain. Now I’m a lump on my living room sofa watching some talking head on cable news talking about COVID-19. What a difference a year makes 🙁

Thank gawd liquor stores are essential businesses.

Hi bidiong, I’m glad to hear all is well. I hope it keeps up.

god i suck as a teacher…the damage i’m doing to my poor godson as he goes through geo’s 3rd grade boot camp hopefully won’t be irreversible…

god bless our teachers…

i mentioned it before but, at one point i got certified and hired to teach middle school over in the orlando area…i lasted about a month…actually just two weeks of having students in front of me…i lost my cool maybe a total of 4 times in my nine years of active service…i passed that mark in my first few days of trying to teach kids…

patience is just not a virtue i have in abundance…got to remember to use those kids academy youtube vids more…my words are simply causing a blank stare…

awwwww thanks, i appreciate your words z-man…yeah, I definitely need to adjust my thinking…how I’m looking at the situation…

it’s a whole lot easier to play at dad than to actually be a dad…

Thoughts on signing Christian Woods from Detroit?

>I’ve been wanting the Knicks to get Wood for a while<

I haven't seen him play much at all, but from the stats it looks like he can be the kind of stretch PF that can also be efficient around the basket that the Knicks could use and team with Robinson.

I had asked the other day about Davis Bertans, would he be a reasonable target?

Brian Cronin: 1 Rookie point guard
2 Shooter at the 2
3 Barrett
4 Bertans
5 Mitch

Some nice spacing there.

Or, trade for CP3 (include Randle, DSjr, vets, maybe 1 Dallas pick (yuk!)

Paul/lottery pick
Frank/Dotson/Trier
Barrett/Bullock/Iggy
Bertans/Knox
Mitch/Hinton/Late 1st pick

I wouldn’t do it but it would be fun!

Why don’t we just pencil in Cole Anthony since that is surely going to be the pick?

Why don’t we just pencil in Cole Anthony since that is surely going to be the pick?

After making Barrett their pick, can even the Knicks be dumb enough to go with another total non-shooter with a high lottery pick? It’s fine to get one guy like Barrett, but you can’t go with two with back-to-back lottery picks….can you?

Oh man, they totally can, can’t they?

Blood in the ground baby….

Bertans did shoot 42% on nine threes a game this season. That’s kind of bonkers.

Morris actually shot better this year (44%) but on “only” six a game and had never cracked 39% a season before this one (Bertans was at 43% just last season).

It had to be. That was the rumor at the time (that he wanted to go all in on Russell while the less foolish members of the organization did not). The Rozier stuff is a bit trickier, but I think it was Mills, too. It’s possible the future first in the Rozier deal was the second Dallas pick.

Brian Cronin:
Bertans did shoot 42% on nine threes a game this season. That’s kind of bonkers.

Morris actually shot better this year (44%) but on “only” six a game and had never cracked 39% a season before this one (Bertans was at 43% just last season).

Funny you bring that up….given how SA ditched Bertans to sign Morris, who proceeded to screw them over by reneging.

The first time I noticed Bertans was when he and KP were playing together on the Latvian national team. I thought he was really good and wondered how we could land him, not realizing that he had already been drafted in 2011!

Only five times has a Knick player averaged more than seven threes a game.

THJ twice (including last season, where he was traded midway through the season), Crawford twice (the last time was when he got off to a scorching start to the 2008-09 season under D’Antoni and then they traded him, so it probably shouldn’t count) and Starks in 1994-95.

Of the four seasons, excluding Crawford’s 11 game stretch? The peak 3P% of those four seasons was 36%. Daaang.

***1 Rookie point guard
2 Shooter at the 2
3 Barrett
4 Bertans
5 Mitch***

Whoever it is, I hope the nickname Shooter At The Two sticks, and it gets put on the back of his jersey, and he gets a tv show spin off, and by the end of the year we don’t even remember his real name.

Brian Cronin: He’s been playing the 4 the past two seasons. If he wasn’t a 4 here, then whoever is coaching the Knicks would be a fool. So…yeah…he’d probably be a 3 here.

How else are we going to force RJ to play the 2?

For all prospective new coaches or GMs, there should be a simple test – “What position should Barrett play next season?” and everyone who says “the 1 or the 2,” should be dismissed.

Bertans has been playing the 4 the past two seasons. If he wasn’t a 4 here, then whoever is coaching the Knicks would be a fool. So…yeah…he’d probably be a 3 here.

We need a shooter at the 2, and he’s a shooter, so he should play the 2. While we’re at it, let’s move Randle to POINT guard, because he leads the team in points.

TheOakmanCometh: I wouldn’t mind LaMelo, but man, he is a rough fit with RJ and Mitch. That’s already three non-shooters in your starting lineup of the future. You can’t have a top-15 offense in today’s NBA without at least three shooters on the floor. We’d basically need to sign Bertans and peak Ray Allen to make up for LaMelo-RJ-Mitch.

Maybe LaMelo can evolve into a decent shooter. I don’t have much faith that RJ will ever be a floor-spacer.

Yeah this was my point, the PGs at the top of the draft not named Haliburton can’t shoot.

Bertans is the exact type of PF to give Randle-money to. Randle’s game is so antiquated I don’t get why we thought he might be a good signing.
I think Morey may have a point when he said he traded Capella because (paraphrase): it’s not cost-effective to have an expensive center these days.
Its so much more important to have shooting.
wtf are we doing guys talking about this in the middle of a pandemic theres no games or moves to even fking discuss whats wrong with us my kids are screaming I’m having an knicksistential crisis

I think if you don’t think LaMelo is going to develop into a shooter you shouldn’t be drafting him

DRed: I think if you don’t think LaMelo is going to develop into a shooter you shouldn’t be drafting him

I only agree to a point…if you are talking about 3-pt shooting, I don’t agree at all. By that, I mean that if you think he has the ability to develop into a reasonably efficient “scorer” with “adequate” 3-pt shooting while being a savant passer and rebounder, I think you still take him. Doncic is in another realm in terms of being a “sure thing” pick, but LaMelo has some of the same attributes. The passing and rebounding seem like sure things. The 3-pt shooting should come around. What seems to separate Doncic the most is his FTr and 2pt%, and those are much more difficult to project.

So what I would say is that if you don’t think LaMelo will improve his 2-pt% and FTr, you shouldn’t draft him.

Anyway, the larger point is that the bigger concern about LaMelo is 2-pt% and FTr. Same with Cole Anthony, although he has another glaring issue (below-average court vision for a PG).

NBATV showing Game 5 of the Pacers vs Bucks in the 1st rd from 2000. Forgot how close the Pacers were to losing that series which would’ve meant either 76ers or Bucks in the Conference Finals vs the Knicks who would’ve had homecourt. Would’ve been back-to-back NBA Finals for the Knicks although I doubt they would’ve had much of a chance vs the Lakers considering how banged up the Knicks were by the end of the Conference Finals. Still would’ve been fun to have had a Knicks-Lakers NBA Finals in 2000 though.

And anyone know who the fk Brock Aller is? He’s the new ‘capologist’ and ‘right hand man’ under Rose.

“Aller is highly respected in league circles. He was considered Dan Gilbert’s close confidant and was instrumental in Cleveland’s run to the 2016 NBA title. Known as a “capologist,” Aller’s savvy in that field led to key moves like Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith being traded from the Knicks to the Cavs in 2015.””

[Begley] Once the deal is completed, Brock Aller will be a chief strategist for Leon Rose’s Knicks, sources say. League sources say Aller will be one of Rose’s right-hand men and will have influence in many aspects of the organization.

I mean… that’s a finals team that won despite the front office if there ever was one.. Iman Shumpert, really?

I’d rather have a draftologist, shotologist, tradeologist, developologist than a capologist from the team that did nothing right in the past five years other than bungle back into LeBron

Oh, by the way, just as a little extra twist of the “Knicksy” knife, remember how OKC was willing to trade their first rounder for Shump but Phil wanted to use Shump instead to clear JR Smith’s $6 million of cap space off of the cap so that Phil could sign Derrick Williams and Aaron Afflalo?

That first round pick (which, of course, you can’t assume that the Knicks would have drafted with that pick) is a 22 year old shooting guard currently hitting 39.7% of his threes for the Sixers on five threes per game.

It’s funny, a trending thing on Twitter right now is “Name five perfect movies” and I just assumed There Will Be Blood was trending because of that, and I was certainly more blissful thinking that over learning of this shitty take.

You’re right Brian, the details of the trade are better than I remembered.

I’m guessing he also had some responsibility for the extensions both guys signed though. Those were pretty crappy deals for the Cavs even if they were going to be capped out regardless. Not the sort of ‘capology’ I want to see at MSG.

Also LaMelo can’t play defense at all. You’re counting on him to improve from the least efficient player in the league AND the worst defender. That’s not a #1 pick in my book.

Don’t know how accurate or meaningful it is, but the Stepien’s defensive Synergy numbers places LaMelo in the 3%ile of defenders.

In reading about, watching and studying LaMelo, I am suspecting that he has ADHD.

The main reason I think he’s worth the risk of a high pick is that if he stalls in his development and we read it early, he will still have significant trade value. He’s got star power that will inflate his value for a couple of years…the size, the passing, the occasional flashy play on O or D…in that sense, his trade value floor seems higher than his actual floor as a player. Sort of the way DSjr had trade value even though his shot looked completely broken and he looked to have a terrible b-ball IQ…he had star power. I think he will develop into a legit star player, but even if not, he can be ditched for something in return. Not the case with Frank.

Film club meets Thursday. Settling down to watch Jowles favorite movie tonight, Mulholland Drive. First time.

BigBlueAL:
I doubt very much LaMelo will have high trade value regardless of his play, from some of what I’ve read many teams will steer clear of him because of his dad plus looks like he might have a reputation of being immature and nowhere near as level headed as his brother.

I dunno, the world is used to Lavar now and Lonzo seems to have moved on from him. LaMelo is definitely immature and has some big question marks. The thing is, so does everyone else. I don’t see a Ja Morant or a De’Aaron Fox or even a Lonzo Ball in this draft in terms of a guy with a high floor. But the elite size, court vision, passing, ball-handling and rebounding all look for real. None of that stuff is going to go away, especially the size. I don’t think the kid has been properly coached in a stable environment yet…he’s bounced around and played short stints on either the best (Spire) or worst team (LIT-1 and NBL) in his league. But it seems clear to me that the things he already has simply can’t be taught and are possessed by very few non-elite players. I think the risk of taking him and regretting is less than the risk of passing on him and regretting it. He’s just that unique.

i just watched this video of LaMelo and Mike Schmitz breaking down his NBL film. I have to admit it gave me a bit of pause. LaMelo didn’t say a single thing that came across as insightful.

Brian Cronin: You’re killing me with how depressing this draft is.

The only saving grace is that it hurts less when we inevitably move down to #9…

Dan Gilbert loves Aller and now he’s with the Knicks. That’s two reasons to think he’s not any good. I’d throw In adding JR Smith and Iman Shumpert as negatives also, but I guess when you have LeBron on your team and you are located in Cleveland, that’s much less of a debacle than having them in NY with Melo trying to keep them under control. Seriously, that team won a championship, but there’s no way the Cavs couldn’t have added better pieces than those two fools. People forget how desperate we were to get rid of Smith and how no one on earth wanted anything to do with him. Shumpert came in as a somewhat promising player, but the injuries and partying with Smith every night made him clear toss. I see nothing in this guy’s resume to like. The best thing I can say about him is that he was lucky enough to work for the Cavs while LeBron was there.

Was he involved in giving up 2 first rounders for Mozgov?

I’ll always appreciate Shump for his contributions during the 2013 playoffs. Was by far the Knicks best player in Game 6 at Boston and I will never forget him mocking Jason Terry by doing his flying jet celebration after hitting a 3pter. Not to mention his insane putback dunk in Game 2 vs the Pacers and being the only player besides Melo who actually showed up in Indiana for Game 6.

But it was all downhill from there for Shump in NY.

That’s two reasons to think he’s not any good. I’d throw In adding JR Smith and Iman Shumpert as negatives also,but I guess when you have LeBron on your team and you are located in Cleveland, that’s much less of a debacle than having them in NY with Melo trying to keep them under control. Seriously, that team won a championship, but there’s no way the Cavs couldn’t have added better pieces than those twofools.

Well this is just revisionist history. The Cavs were capped out and asset strapped–it’s quite literally true that they couldn’t have added anyone else at that deadline.

By the way, JR went on to have a .565 TS% for them (.390 3PT%) that year, and was a prominent rotation player for them the year after in which they won the championship. Picking him up for free because Phil Jackson was terrified he might exercise a $6M option, thus making it a bit harder to sign Courtney Lee or something, turned out to be a great move.

Yeah, and think about it, for just Shump, the Knicks were asking for a first rounder. They were willing to get no pick if the team in question took JR off of their hands. So the Cavs got two useful players and got to keep their pick in the process just by adding to an already capped out team.

Yup. Obviously I have no idea what Aller’s role was specifically and I’m naturally skeptical about anyone the Knicks hire, but the Cavs made a number of nifty moves during their run and it was noted at the time. I do view it as a small positive that they went out and got someone who isn’t a “name.”

God, Phil Jackson was such a moron. With all the money he saved by not just taking the first-rounder for Shump, he got us one glorious year of Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams.

For the record, I don’t buy media “reports” that so and so could have been traded for “x”. Most of the media is full of shit (Woj being one exception). Most of the reports are speculation and hearsay that have no basis in fact. Unless a GM or high level executive comes out and says that a certain deal was on the table, it was never a legitimate deal. It was some idiot working for a newspaper or website making things up for clicks or reporting the nonsense he heard from someone with an agenda.

Plus, it was Woj who was reporting the “Knicks looking for a first rounder for Shump” rumors at the time.

Once you have Michael Jordan the tanking debate definitely gets more complicated. I am not sure what implications you think that has for the New York Knicks.

https://www.si.com/nba/2015/01/06/dion-waiters-jr-smith-iman-shumpert-cavaliers-knicks-thunder-trade-grades

“Nitpickers will bemoan the fact that Shumpert, who looked like a 2011 draft steal and was linked to big-name targets in trade rumors for years, departs for basically nothing. However, Shumpert has failed to post a Player Efficiency Rating of 15 or better during his four-year career and his market value took a major hit when he suffered a serious knee injury in 2012. He is also heading for free agency this summer, a fact that naturally limits interest in him. Knicks fans might lament Shumpert’s departure, but it’s difficult to argue that retaining him was a higher-priority than digging in on a full rebuilding effort considering New York’s performance this season.

Charley Rosen on the trade

“I asked [Derek Fisher] what players were the biggest distractions. He said that although J.R. [Smith] never talked back to him, he always walked around under a dark cloud. Derek was worried that negative energy was contagious.” Phil Jackson, in January

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/13269490/the-phil-files-part-4-trade-shook-new-york

There were no good deals available for Shumpert and the priority was dismantling the team AND GETTING RID OF JR SMITH which required adding in Shumpert who they probably weren’t going to resign in free agency and whose market value had declined due to poor performance, because he was hurt at the time, and because he was a free agent.

None of that matters much. The Cavs didn’t win a championship because they had JR Smith and Shumpert instead of Waiters. It was just a better place for them to be than NY for the reasons I suggested. If that’s the best we’ve got for adding this guy to management, I’m not impressed.

At said it a few weeks ago.

We should hiring high level people with a great track record from well run winning organizations. The Cavs are not what I had in mind.

…..And Justin Holiday…

Also if Charley Rosen says bad things about someone that automatically elevates my opinion of them

I get that its different to be the 9th seed and sneak into the playoffs than to be a lottery team and fall back to 8 or 9 because of one or two wins. The Bulls did all ready have Jordan.

But we could have used those Knox and Frank picks to pick much better players. Donovan Mitchell was there for taking. Its not like he was picked at the end of the first round or second round and was some huge surprise. He was picked like 4 or 5 spots after our pick.

Does anyone besides me like Kira Lewis Jr. in a trade down or trade up scenario? Mid-lottery is probably too high for him, but is he really any more risky than Cole Anthony?

Really enjoying the Bulls doc on ESPN (even though they jump around chronologically quite a bit)

Episode 2 has some highlights from the Bulls first round series against Boston in 1986 (Bird says that was the best Celtics team he ever played on) Jordan had won ROY the year before, but this was really his coming out party. 49 points in game 1, 63 points in game 2 in an OT loss. And the Celtics threw every player they had at him to try and stop him. I remember watching in awe and realizing how ridiculously good Jordan was.

Reminded me a little of the Knicks-Celtics series in 1984 when Bernard King and a bunch of scrubs took a similar Boston team to 7 games and Bernard averaged 34.8 points.

Yeah I’d walk that one back

Damn, that’d be a 2- or 3-seed in the East!

In 2012!

Hey you’ll never be able to take away my Derrick Williams memories doe

Them shits is forever

My predictions

1 Trade our starting unit for CPaul and then make him our capologist.

2 Send DSJ to the Harlem Globetrotters.

3 Bring back Melo Chandler Amare JRSmith JKidd Sheed and Shump.

4 Draft the ‘Anthony Bennett’ of this draft.

5 Hire Tyron Lue as a coach.

6 Bring back Lance Thomas and stretch him till he becomes a strech 4.

Is this what you’re saying?

(1) The Knicks’ former front office used lottery picks on bad players.
(2) Those executives were fired and replaced.
(3) The Knicks should not place much value in future lottery positioning because of the failures of the since-departed decision-makers.

Is this what you’re saying?

(1) The Knicks’ former front office used lottery picks on bad players.
(2) Those executives were fired and replaced.
(3) The Knicks should not place much value in future lottery positioning because of the failures of the since-departed decision-makers.

I think his point is that making the playoffs as an 8th seed that got swept was more beneficial to the Bulls, when they had 22 year old Michael Jordan, than increased lottery odds. This proves you should be a ruff rydah and not tank.

The problem is he’s kind of glossing over the whole “22 year old Michael Jordan” thing.

Any chance to re-live old trade threads!

http://knickerblogger.net/breaking-knicks-trade-shump-j-r-for-second-rounder/

More than anything, that trade was a signal that Phil Jackson wasn’t beholden to CAA, which makes it ironic that it is the trade that is being used by Rose to justify hiring Brock Allard.

Any chance to re-live old trade threads!

http://knickerblogger.net/breaking-knicks-trade-shump-j-r-for-second-rounder/

More than anything, that trade was a signal that Phil Jackson wasn’t beholden to CAA, which makes it ironic that it is the trade that is being used by Rose to justify hiring Brock Allard.

I didn’t do a full read through but my god if JK47 isn’t prescient as hell…

This team has five wins in January. It’s fast becoming one of the worst teams in the history of the league. The roster is completely barren of talent; next year’s roster is Carmelo Anthony, Pablo Prigioni, Jose Calderon, and Tim Hardaway, and that’s pretty much it. That is a pitiful talent base.

How do you fix that with $27M in salary cap space? You can’t. There are too many holes to fill. The Knicks need perimeter defenders and they need interior defenders. They need rebounders. The shooting guard and power forward positions are absolute black holes, and the point guard and center positions could also use beefing up. The young players under team control are all very iffy propositions: the mediocre Hardaway, the raw Antetokuonmpo, the D-League longshot Galloway… Sure, you’ll have your lottery pick next year but even if you get Okafor or Towns those guys are gonna be 19 years old when the season starts.

$27M seems like a lot of salary cap space, but not when you have to fill almost every role on the team. There is no quick fix for a team playing .135 ball.

I hope one day Phil Jackson does an in-depth interview in which he tries to explain what the “strategy” was here.

Hopefully we’ll be left with 2 of Haliburton, Hayes, Avdija, and maybe Toppin to choose from, and all those guys seem better than Edwards. Heck, I‘d even consider Hampton. Maybe Okwongu will fall and that would be great. Personally, I like the 7-9 “high floor” category more than the “future star” top picks.

But things were different in 1986, and their fans would have been right to ambivalent about it. From 1984 to 1987, the draft lottery had equal odds among all non-playoff teams. In 1986, the Bulls had a 1-in-7 chance of a #1 pick, regardless of whether they had won zero or 29 games (as did the Cavs, who failed to make the playoffs just one W behind the Bulls; they picked first overall).

Brad Daugherty would have been an interesting get for that Bulls team but I don’t think it would have changed the course of history.

This is absolutely the draft to trade down for future picks. Not even trade down for who, just more down the road. That’s obviously not going to happen, and the (ugh, sorta-kinda) youth movement is over. Dolan tried not trading picks and it didn’t work, so the Knicks are hiring execs with proven records of building winners in free agency.

Avdija is 18 or 19 playing in the second best league in the world for a top tier team which says something. He only has a tiny sample of minutes there, so those numbers are not that telling. Here’s his numbers from the Israeli league: https://www.proballers.com/basketball/player/74971/deni-avdija

Still pretty underwhelming. The scouting reports I’ve read indicate he’s a better passer than his numbers show. Perhaps the thinking is he’ll continue to improve as a playmaker in the PnR and can run that more consistently in game at some point? Perhaps he’s also benefiting from fitting into the same mold as Luka, despite clearly being worse. I personally don’t want him at all.

Early Bird:
Avdija is 18 or 19 playing in the second best league in the world for a top tier team which says something. He only has a tiny sample of minutes there, so those numbers are not that telling. Here’s his numbers from the Israeli league: https://www.proballers.com/basketball/player/74971/deni-avdija

Still pretty underwhelming. The scouting reports I’ve read indicate he’s a better passer than his numbers show. Perhaps the thinking is he’ll continue to improve as a playmaker in the PnR and can run that more consistently in game at some point?Perhaps he’s also benefiting from fitting into the same mold as Luka, despite clearly being worse. I personally don’t want him at all.

Sure, he’s a good flier late in the first round or a draft and stash pick in the 2nd, but picking him in the top 10 seems insane,

More than anything, that trade was a signal that Phil Jackson wasn’t beholden to CAA, which makes it ironic that it is the trade that is being used by Rose to justify hiring Brock Allard.

I like going back to the threads from Phil’s first year to affirm just how much I gave Phil every benefit of the doubt that you could imagine. He was doing trades I didn’t like, but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he had some brilliant plan for the cap space that made it imperative that it be preserved. Then that offseason occurred, and it was clear that, nope, he was just a moron.

It might be fair to say that people looking for the next Steph were seduced by D’Angelo Russell and Trae Young. Trae is really good, but is he more Steph or more Isaiah Thomas? Or something different altogether (better passer than any of them, but a really bad defender)?

Oh, that was totally the reasoning behind taking Trae.

Oh man, all of those Orlando/Indiana/Chicago games back then were so amazing to watch (and then Miami games a couple of years later).

The Honorable Cock Jowles: His ceiling is “greatest offensive player of the modern era.”

That’s a pretty tall order, unless the modern era means after 2019…

He doesn’t have what Bird, or Jordan, or LeBron had at 21, accounting for the era in which they played. He will never have what they had. My guess is that he’s probably very near his ceiling. But yeah, what he’s done at this point is certainly phenomenal. We’ll see.

I always thought Dragan Bender, drafted 4th overall despite not really having any kind of track record, benefitted from the relative success of another enormous European guy drafted the previous year who has been discussed here once or twice.

Whatever his faults, Dolan is a charitable man and I applaud that.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29084640/knicks-owner-james-dolan-donate-plasma-coronavirus-recovery

The headline talks about plasma, but in the article it mentions he extended the date to May 31 that he will Keep paying MSG employees. He also started an employee relief fund and donated significant money to it.

Yeah, Dolan is philanthropic. It’s hard to give him his due given how petty and vindictive he is all the time but it does have to be said.

thenoblefacehumper: I admittedly wasn’t alive, but my understanding is people said this kind of thing about Jordan himself when he was as young as Luka. The documentary touches on that a bit. Maybe give the 21 year-old legitimate MVP candidate a little time to prove he has whatever it is you’re looking for?

I thought I kind of implied that I was giving him more time…but if we had to bet now, I would take the under. There’s also a few others he has to reckon with…Curry, Durant and Harden come to mind…to be considered “the greatest offensive player of the modern era.” Then there’es that LeBron guy…

http://bkref.com/tiny/l0uTg

There’s as big a delta between the 2020 Mavs (#1) and the 2019 Warriors (#2) as between the Warriors and the 1996 Bulls (#9). Doncic was 20 years old for the majority of the season and they were 34-20 when he played, 6-7 when he did not.

Again, the 2019-2020 Dallas Mavericks were the #1 overall offense in NBA history and Doncic was, by far, the greatest contributor to it.

If Tyson Chandler is considered the 2nd best Center of the league then the Center position is in deep trouble.

I mean, I don’t even think Luka has ever even worked on his body yet vis-a-vis weightlifting and diet…

And if what most posters here often assume is true, he’ll improve his outside shot as he ages. What’s scary about Luka is how he’s already a top-5 player (top-10 if you’re a pessimist) but actually has areas where he can improve.

There’s no doubt that Avdija is a lesser talent than Luka at the same age, but nearly every player was – Luka was sort of a child prodigy in that respect.

I think Deni can be decent, but he will be a role player and not a star. He doesn’t have the handle to be a primary facilitator like Luka, but he does seem like a very good passer and he rebounds his position well.

I would be very disturbed by the free throws, though, as that has been consistently bad. He could easily become a craftier Knox, which isn’t good. If he shoots threes/fts well, defends his position, and becomes a secondary playmaker, he could become a Joe Ingles type, but that’s probably his ceiling.

Dirk was hard as a pornstar’s Dick during the Mavs-Heat finals.
Got the ring without big3s or active allstars.
Huge Balls.

Now I’ll never be able to look at that patented one-legged fade-away without thinking he had to develop it because squared-up jump shots were too uncomfortable. Thanks for that.

From now on, I’ll call Dirk one-legged jumpshot “The Diggler Jiggler”. Case closed.

Farfa! Great to hear from you. How’s it… um…, hanging out your way?

>In 2010-11, Chandler had a BPM of 1.5 (60th in the league, 0.6 in the playoffs) and a VORP of 1.8 (74th in the league, 0.5 in the playoffs). Yet if I go back to that time, I believe I could find some of some prominent young poster touting him as definitively the best player on the Mavs (Dirk included) and one of the all-time great offensive centers.<

lmao

Chandler was a very good player and critical to Dallas's championship run.

Dirk was all all time great player that virtually carried that team on his back to a championship. That was a legendary finals series and performance.

Dirk is probably a top 25 all time player and I'm probably underrating him.

Chandler is probably a top 25 all time Center and I'm probably overrating him.

Anything that says otherwise is too ridiculous to waste the energy discussing. That wasn't the broken model era. It was the very broken model era when people were looking at Wins Produced and other such nonsense to value Dirk, Chandler, and Kidd .

It’s hard to be mad at Dolan right now, as he’s donating plasma, extending the pay to employees for at least another month, and is not actively destroying the Knicks organization or reputation… is this a good omen for things to come? O_o

Who was a better basketball player at his peak is an interesting debate between Jordan and Lebron. They played in very different eras, so I don’t think you can definitively answer it either way. When it comes to who had a better NBA career it’s Lebron and it’s not even close because he played so much more high level basketball than Jordan.

LeBron has already played about 20% more minutes (reg. season and playoffs) than Jordan did in his entire career. If he plays three more years, he’ll be at about 40% more minutes. That’s got to be a factor when comparing their careers.

There are the numbers and the trophies and also there are the impressions and the feelings.
There is also the peak of something and the decadence.
Imo Jordan played incredibly intense basketball at the highest level on the peak of the league and left the impression that he was closer to God than to athlete.
As a knicks fan i hated him but couldn’t deny that he was the best bballer i ‘ve ever seen.
Lebron is a great player.
MJ is God.

Lebron is 3-5 in the finals typically beating up a terrible eastern conference teams to get there. He has a loss to a vastly inferior Dallas team, a win because Kyrie was great down the stretch of a game, and a win on a fluke ending against the Spurs where other players made the winning plays. He was teamed with another all time great in Wade and had Bosh who would be a #1 or #2 on any solid playoff team yet went 2-2 with then. That’s with a team that caused massive controversy because they had so stacked the deck in talent everyone thought it wasn’t fair.

He’s a top 5 player all time and incredible all around talent, but he’s not on the same planet as Jordan and a few others among the all time greats in being able to close out hyper competitive games and series under extreme fire. His talent and skills will beat almost anyone every might, but not someone that’s just as good, fights back harder, and handles the pressure better.

>Oh, we’re getting peak eyetest Strat today.<

No, we are getting aspects of winning and losing at the highest levels Strat,

When two competitors are very similar in talent and ability, winning often comes down to who is tougher mentally and who wants it more and not some random bounces of the ball or minuscule difference is statistics. Jordan was WAY tougher mentally and as a competitor than Lebron. It's not even close. The closest thing I've seen to Jordan in any other sport is Rafa Nadal, but Rafa at his peak (as great as he was/is) wasn't as good all around at tennis as Jordan was at basketball. He was however unquestionably a mentally tough and competitive monster.

It does seem like Lebron gets kind of unfairly maligned because of the 3 for 8 thing. It seems a little unjust to penalize Lebron for that while simultaneously pretending that Jordan didn’t have better help than Lebron typically had.

Lebron is 3-5 in the finals typically beating up a terrible eastern conference teams to get there.

Playoff runs, year, opponents + SRS

1991 Bulls, 8.57 SRS (1st)

Knicks -0.43 (15th of 27)
Sixers -0.39 (16th)
Pistons 3.08 (9th)
Lakers 6.73 (3rd)

1992, 10.02 (1st)

Heat -3.94 (21st of 27)
Knicks 3.67 (7th)
Cavs 5.34 (5th)
Blazers 6.94 (2nd)

1993, 6.19 (4th)

Hawks -0.67 (16th of 27)
Cavs 6.30 (2nd)
Knicks 5.37 (5th)
Suns 6.27 (3rd)

1996, 11.80 (1st)

Heat 1.46 (13th of 29)
Knicks 2.24 (10th)
Magic 5.40 (5th)
Sonics 7.40 (2nd)

1997, 10.70 (1st)

Bullets, 1.77 (13th of 29)
Hawks, 5.51 (5th)
Heat, 5.56 (4th)
Jazz, 7.97 (2nd)

1998, 7.24 (1st)

Nets, 1.88 (14th of 29)
Hornets, 2.45 (12th)
Pacers, 6.25 (4th)
Jazz, 5.73 (5th)

I’d rather have Jordan’s career, but hey, that’s just me.

I will say this. If we were having an intergalactic basketball war and you picked prime Jordan, I wouldn’t be bummed about getting stuck with prime LeBron.

We’re bustin out, we couldn’t wait
We’re bustin’ out ‘cause we’re too damn straight
Now we’re all a little free to communicate
And we’re all a little stoned and we freak when we’re at home
And for me I only freak when I’m bustin’ out

what’s up freaky folks…hope all is well for everyone…

looks like the sesh is shut down…dang…fortunately got some business cards the last couple of times i visited…just got to work out the instagram thing (where you can buy stuff that ain’t “actually” for sale)…never really used that or twitter before…guess i gotta start catching up…unfortunately prices for this commodity go up about 30 to 50% when you step inside a storefront…

been able to stay off the pills, never got much pass a few glasses of wine, slowing down on beer and wine altogether – it usually just dehydrates me real fast…

the real trouble is though – i can’t really get high…i mean, i’m trying, but…things have been a bit busy at work, busy at home…when i’m real engaged in life, the adrenaline switch just stays stuck in the on position…it’s hard to mute that motherfucker…

new thread time…

LeBron the occasional failures of his front offices to construct an elite team around him. Even in Miami, Bosh was quite a letdown as a third-fiddle (1.3, 0.8, 1.3 and 0.8 BPM in his four seasons with LeBron) and Wade was 29 when their run began.

None of this takes away from Jordan’s accomplishments. He was consistently the best player in basketball from 1987 through his first retirement, and then came back as an All-NBA first-teamer with a late-prime Pippen and a stacked team around him. You can blame those early playoff losses on his shitty team as much as you can LeBron’s Finals losses (for the most part). Jordan is probably a more consistent playoff performer, but man, LeBron’s peaks were really something. 2009 has yet to be surpassed by any individual player, and may never be. Still, bounced in the 2nd round!

There have been a lot of incredible single-season and single-playoff performances in the NBA over the years. No one wins 72 games — or two three-peats — without a ton of help. You put an early-prime LeBron on the 1991 Bulls in Jordan’s place and I think there’s a good chance they win six in a row, too. (I believe that the Bulls would have won all eight had Jordan not been secretly suspended for gambling.)

Those SRSes are fascinating, Jowles. Boy, Lebron dragged some shitty ass teams to the Finals.

the playoff teams themselves were generally better.

Which is a nostalgic-old-man thing to say, with no evidence whatsoever. I’m not ascribing it to you, but still dismissing it as unproven.

i was most certainly better back then…people actually wanted to see me naked…nowadays i’d either need to pay for the pleasure or risk incarceration to make that happen…

He was consistently the best player in basketball from 1987 through his first retirement, and then came back as an All-NBA first-teamer

This is really only true of his final year with the Bulls and the 17 rusty games in 1994-95. ’96 is Jordan’s 2nd best career season by WS/48 with .317, and he followed that with a league-leading .283 in ’97. His style was different, but the results show he was still the best player in basketball by different means (TOV% in those seasons was particularly insane given his offensive role).

If he wasn’t the best player in the league those years, who was? Robinson? Malone?

Hmm, I don’t think so BBA. My recollection is lots of forced last shots and lots of misses.

I remember him hitting one very early on as a knock, like maybe his 3rd game, and I think it was at Detroit. He ran up the court shouting “I do this”.

Then I think he blew every one after that until the bulls game. And usually it was a forced shot while double teamed when someone was open.

Naturally this is the eye test but I’d be surprised if anyone can remember that many more game winners.

This is not NYK Melo, but here’s an article that had him as once the BEST game-winning shot maker in the NBA, and as of 2009, “Carmelo Anthony has slipped from the former top spot, but still a worthy challenger with the best fg% of any player with at least 10 makes.”

I disliked Melo as a Knick as much as anyone, but I guess he might have wanted to amend that shout to “I did this.”

https://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

But it gets weirder. Just found this, from a 2020 Blazers game description: “Anthony has the most game-winners under five seconds since he first entered the league during the hailed 2003-04 season and if looking at the last 30 seconds of a game, he’s topping some of the best names in the past two decades.

The Blazers vet has 26 game-winning field goals in the final 30 seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime periods, the most of any player since his rookie season. More than Kobe Bryant (22), LeBron James (20), Dirk Nowitzki (18) or Dwyane Wade (18).”

The Clutch Melo narrative was a big thing. He had the best numbers in the league in Denver. In New York, he….. did not. It was something we talked about a lot, how he clearly felt he had a reputation to live up to that led to terrible late game decisions.

That’s interesting that Melo was actually good at them, relative to the league. But they’re such bad shots overall and he so frequently created his own when it wasn’t necessary. When the best players are only hitting 25% you wouldn’t see the brawny players of old indulging in such pissantery.

Yeah, the definitions each of those pieces use for last-minute/clutch/game winners are all different, so there’s that. But it seems right that Melo used to be really good at it, then came to the Knicks and sucked. I do feel like I remember all 22 of the ones he missed WAY more than the 8 he made. I hated them so very much…

“Yeah, the definitions each of those pieces use for last-minute/clutch/game winners are all different, so there’s that. ”

This is right. It was his numbers close and late that really suffered as I recall. Everyone shoots a terrible percentage on game winning shots by and large.

Drafting for need when you stink. My favorite thing.

Especially when there was no consensus on who the best OL is but there is a consensus on the best LB by far in this draft and GOD knows the Giants can use a playmaker at LB, haven’t really had one since Jessie Armstead although Pierce was really good.

BigBlueAL:
Especially when there was no consensus on who the best OL is but there is a consensus on the best LB by far in this draft and GOD knows the Giants can use a playmaker at LB, haven’t really had one since Jessie Armstead although Pierce was really good.

Andrew Thomas may be fine. He may be Erick Flowers. I don’t really know. I do know he was not worth the #4 pick. Isiah Simmons was. If that’s the kind of guy you want, trade down.

The worst part is we all knew Gettelman was going to fuck it up. I still can’t believe we don’t have a 3rd round pick this year bc of that Williams trade. Fuck this guy.

BigBlueAL: I wish Melo hadn’t passed to Jared Jeffries at the end of Game 2 vs Boston in 2011….

Haha. Touche.

Hubert: Haha. Touche.

I’ll never forget that game cause that was the only time ever THCJ praised Melo for his performance lol

Why are the Giants fans here mad? I thought that kid was a reasonable pick.

Who was the better pick? The kid from LSU?

and, he’s a linebacker…the g-men’s defense sucks…really sucks…

“Another brutal decision by Giants GM Dave Gettelman. If he were a governor, his state would have 2,000,000 cases of coronavirus. ” ‘

Ummmm…. NYS actually does have 2,000,000 people who have contracted coronavirus according to Cuomo today 🙂

You have 20,000 dead people in NY and somehow Cuomo is some sort of hero….lol.

He wanted 7 times the hospital beds he needed and 6 times the ventilators he needed and all you guys were cursing Trump for only giving him 4400 which was MORE than he needed. Fuck Detroit and New Orleans…. we are New Yorkers and we deserve everything even though we were completely unprepared and spent almost a billion on windmill factories that go belly up. Nice work Governor.

You are as wrong about this pick as you were when he drafted his franchise QB last year.

I gotta be honest, I was a little surprised those big cats at the zoo caught the virus…

I take that back…I was a lot surprised…

“This whole corona thing is almost worked out anyway. The “inject bleach” solution sounds really promising.” That is commonly done to racehorses by he way…. sodium hypochlorite is a hell of a buffer and not easily detectable

Real men drink bleach

it works on horses, ok?

The only tricky part is getting the dosage right.

I do think this comment will hurt Trump. It’s the wrong kind of stupid.

bobneptune: giving him 4400 which was MORE than he needed

I am curious, what is the required number of Ventilators?

There are 214 Hospitals in NYS. How many patients should they be able to treat?

Point of clarification. Cuomo does not need ventilators, People dying from complications of Covid-19 need them.

Here’s what we have:

Saquon Barkley
Nate Solder
Daniel Jones
Dexter Lawrence
Andrew Thomas
Leonard Williams

Here’s what we could have:

Saquon Barkley and extra picks from trading down to get him.
Josh Allen (made the pro bowl in his rookie year)
Daniel Jones
Isiah Simmons
The 4th pick in the 3rd round pick of this draft
Enough cap space for a franchise LT
Enough cap space for Jadaveon Clowney

I don’t know, man. I’m not feeling being wrong on this one.

That is commonly done to racehorses by he way…. sodium hypochlorite is a hell of a buffer and not easily detectable

Hahahaha haha this dude is defending the “let’s try injecting bleach” idea

Just take the L on this one homey

Remember when people said Trump doesn’t really want to be president. I’m really starting to believe that is the case. That’s why he’s recommending people inject themselves with bleach, encouraging people via twitter to protest, etc. He knows his words and actions will most likely cause his own supporters to die and thus decrease his chances of getting re-elected.

I wondered if Fox News would even cover the Lysol injection strategy. They did! Here’s the headline:

Media erupt over Trump comments on disinfectant as coronavirus cure: Here’s what he said

Let me annotate that.

Media

who are professional liars, as you know

erupt

that’s an emotional outburst, like a menstruating woman

over Trump comments

which came from Trump, so they’re either uniquely wise, deeply strategic or an intentional joke

on disinfectant as coronavirus cure: Here’s what he

actually

said

THCJ, you do realize you’re a true American hero? All those posters you told to drink bleach are now immune from the corona virus.

Well done, sir!

Clearly the President is unaware that the only acceptable context in which it’s okay to tell people to consume cleaning products is if they say something like “Carmelo’s missed shots actually create a lot of opportunities for his teammates”

Is bleach finally going to be his watergate?

I get that sexual assault, extortion, bribery and self-dealing are obscure concepts that are difficult for the american public to grasp.

But drinking bleach? We may have a winner.

About the only opinion I have this morning that’s stronger than Jordan > James is that the all the mainstream media outlets are intrinsically evil and the people that listen to them are dumber than a pile of rocks.

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:
OMG, Hubert, i have met you personally and think you are an alright dude. But your hot take just now is BobNeptune levels of awful. Please apologize for that post. It’s bad dude.

If you show me a clip of Trump telling people to ingest bleach, I will apologize.

Every time you guys say “This just happened,” I look at the clip, and I see that “this, in fact, did not just happen, but everyone is saying it did.”

The Jared Kushner thing was just the last example. What he meant was obvious, and y’all collectively and willingly took his statement out of context to further your narrative.

That’s not a defense of Kushner, who I think is scum. But call a spade a spade.

>By the way, RE: the last thing everyone here got up in arms about… Jared Kushner was right. NY did not need more ventilators. In fact NY is currently donating excess ventilators. Y’all took an L on that one.<

I don't know if this is true because the source is a mainstream news organization in the US (so it's most likely a lie, spun, half truth, incompetent reporting etc..) but it says that when Bloomberg was mayor he stockpiled ventilators and face masks on the off chance NYC would eventually be faced with a pandemic and De blasio auctioned them off. Here's one source.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/491651-new-york-city-auctioned-off-extra-ventilators-due-to-cost-of-maintenance

No, dude didn’t tell people to drink bleach.

He DID suggest that injecting bleach or disinfectant might be something worth looking into. Which is really a special brand of stupid.

I can’t believe we’re sitting here parsing all of this. This isn’t a media creation, this is some stupid shit that came right out of that dumb motherfucker’s mouth.

Do keep defending it though, because that shit is hilarious.

Hubert, if you like, we can have a thoughtful discussion and revisit your take on early mitigation efforts. That’s fair game. But right now, you need to decide whether you are taking the L on bleach. It’s very simple. Do not obfuscate the issue.

Complete the full quote:

“I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning? So it’d be interesting to check that. [Points to his head] I’m not a doctor. But I’m, like, a person that _______________.”

1) has a good you-know-what
2) breeds racehorses
3) reads the comments sections of NBA blogs

It’s going to be delightful when his supporters try to then argue “Biden has dementia!” in the fall.

President Super Villain is a pip. https://twitter.com/PresVillain

Hubert, when you get in front of a podium and address millions of people, you should prepare. If you want to know if bleach is effective, you ask that question before you get on stage. You do not use this incredibly valuable air time to guess at the cure.

But alas, you have officially lost all of your credibility with anyone on this board who is *checks notes* not a complete fucking idiot.

Z-Man, if you ever go to war with Hubert, you can consider me a friend. These times cause strange bedfellows.

Sweden has one of the highest per capita death rates from COVID in the world.

Who are you and what have you done with Hubert

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:
Hubert, when you get in front of a podium and address millions of people, you should prepare. If you want to know if bleach is effective, you ask that question before you get on stage. You do not use this incredibly valuable air time to guess at the cure.

What makes you think I disagree with this?

Here’s what I said:

I’m not going to even bother to google what this latest bru-ha-ha is, but I’m pretty confident that if I did, I would find something a lot less sinister than a video of Trump telling American people to digest bleach.

Was I wrong? Did Trump tell people that bleach is an effective cure?

Don’t present a counterargument that I agree with and act like I don’t. That’s some straw man shit that I expect better from you.

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: This man is the leader of the free world. His time on the podium is not supposed to be random guessings about cures. He should be spitting MISSION CRITICAL facts to guide the planet on how to handle the virus. that is the job of the POTUS.

Good job answering Hubert’s post 6 posts *before* he posted it. Man, I’m so tired of tha politcs-talk that invaded everywhere in society. Nobody admits to a mistake or backs off. I’m surprised people haven’t injected disinfectant yet and claimed they’re healed. It’s probably coming though.

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:
YES!!! You accidentally arrived at the point. Trump essentially told people that bleach is an effective cure.That’s how human interaction and interpretation and public speaking work. When you ask a question in such a forum, you are making a suggestion. Everything in our world is contextual. If you strip the context from any statement, you can always arrive at your pre-determined outcome.

I disagree vehemently with the part you put in bold, and that’s where we differ here.

If someone watched that video and injected himself with bleach, good for the human race.

Also, if someone is getting medical advice from the President instead of their doctor, I’m not shedding tears over him, either. No one needs to be watching these press conferences anyway.

JK47:
Sweden has one of the highest per capita death rates from COVID in the world.

Who are you and what have you done with Hubert

Sweden is at 17.2 deaths per 100,000 while doing essentially nothing. New York is at 76.2.

I’m not suggesting we should have done nothing, but we didn’t choose the right path.

thenoblefacehumper: I’m shocked that you think your anti-quarantining take has been vindicated, Hubert.

I was not anti-quarantine.

I was anti canceling 6-12 months of the country.

. mean New York alone has 263,000 confirmed cases (god knows how much higher the actual figure is) and over 15,000 deaths (same applies here). Both of those numbers would be exponentially higher if people were going to work, kids were going to school, etc.

New Yorkers were running around up until around March 15th as if nothing was wrong. There’s space between locking everyone down and acting as if everything is normal. That was my take.

Brian Cronin:
President Super Villain is a pip. https://twitter.com/PresVillain

been thinking of you the last couple of days bc…got my boxes of comics laying all over the place as i go through them…not sure if you’ve had any extra time in your life (work, family, virus shit) to have a chance to go through any collection you might have…no doubt your probably a much bigger fan of comics and graphic novels than myself – are there any old storylines which you’ve been going through lately?

about 90% of my collection was published between ’95 and ’05 – any suggestions for some of the more “mainstream” characters which may have some more recent interesting stories to go through?

recently picked up this power ranger/teenage mutant ninja turtle cross-over for the kids which looked cool…also picked up this DC: “year of the villian: lex luthor” which looks really good…

are you okay with those figures, particularly the latter, getting in order to prevent economic damage?

I am extremely ok with economic damage. Avoiding damage is not my concern. Public health is more important than short term economic impact.

But I believe thorough economic destruction is worse for public health than the coronavirus, and that’s what these policies are putting in play.

Early Bird:
Guys, stop listening to doctors, epidemiologists, and other experts. This poster on the internet once predicted that KD would leave Golden State!!!

Doctors, epidemiologists, and other experts are saying what I’m saying, too. Try listening to Dr Amesh Adalja from the Johns Hopkins University Center for Health Security. They don’t put him on the news because his takes aren’t hot enough, but I hosted a call with him on Monday and will likely do so again. I can get you the dial in information if you like.

I am extremely ok with economic damage. Avoiding damage is not my concern. Public health is more important than short term economic impact.

But I believe thorough economic destruction is worse for public health than the coronavirus, and that’s what these policies are putting in play.

You didn’t answer the question. We’ve got 15,000+ confirmed deaths in New York alone. That number would undoubtedly be higher if we didn’t quarantine aggressively and take all the other measures you don’t like.

What number are you comfortable with if it means avoiding “thorough economic destruction?”

I’m not unsympathetic to the health effects of poor economic conditions–they’re well-documented and shape much of my worldview. But we can mitigate them to a large degree with stimulus, unemployment insurance, etc. (and if you don’t think we’re doing that aggressively enough, I’m right there with you). We have no similar ability to mitigate the public health effects of a fucking coronavirus. You can’t pass a bill that relieves fevers.

Also, even putting aside economic hardship mitigation, you’re out of your god damn mind if you think more people will die from these economic conditions than would die if we just kind of ignored the whole coronavirus thing.

Again, we’re talking about over 15,000 deaths in New York alone (and very, very, very much counting) with a near-total shutdown (albeit a late one) baked in. There’s no telling what that number would be if most people were still working, kids were still going to school, etc. You really think the number of deaths resulting from current economic conditions will be higher still? Or have you just dug into this shtick too much to back out now?

Good point, Hubert, I will take the L.

For all the world, I take the L.

I am not treating the “anti-lockdown” crowd with dignity. Instead, I prioritized the dignity of those with co-morbidities.

Dear Flying Spaghetti Monster, when my day has come, and you pass judgment upon me, please find it in your ultimate saucy wisdom to excuse my dismissal of the dignity of the anti-lockdown crowd beneath the dignity of those with co-morbidities. Also, in this lifetime, please give me the strength to treat the “anti-lockdown” crowd with true dignity, and in the immortal words of Hubertoinette, “let them drink bleach”.

Exactly what I suggested nearly 8 weeks ago: stop the spread and protect the vulnerable without a total lockdown that destroyed the economy.

Holy fuck do you sound dumb here! “Stop the spread!” “Protect the vulnerable!”

Oh, okay! That’s a strategy! When I teach my friends chess, should I say, “All you have to do is do the checkmate?” Or when I was teaching English, “All you have to do is make the sentence?”

Hong Kong has:

(1) extremely high testing rates per person
(2) mandatory testing for all people entering the administrative region
(3) mandatory quarantine for all those who test positive upon entry
(4) mandatory hospitalization to ensure that infected patients cannot spread the disease without being tracked
(5) a pre-existing medical infrastructure from HK having dealt with deadly respiratory disease in the near-past

You guys believed full lockdown was the only way to react, and now that we have more information, it is clear that you were wrong. Sweden is another country that avoided lockdown and is proving that you were wrong.

Sweden!? Sweden is your success story? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Stay 6 feet away from people not in your household, wash your hands, and talk to your doctor if you’re sick. And wear a mask if you need to go to a public place. That is literally all we needed to know to get through this.

Holy shit.

been thinking of you the last couple of days bc…got my boxes of comics laying all over the place as i go through them…not sure if you’ve had any extra time in your life (work, family, virus shit) to have a chance to go through any collection you might have…no doubt your probably a much bigger fan of comics and graphic novels than myself – are there any old storylines which you’ve been going through lately?

The bulk of my collection is still in a storage unit that I thought I’d have emptied out in October of last year. But various nonsense (and now a pandemic) has kept it there.

about 90% of my collection was published between ’95 and ’05 – any suggestions for some of the more “mainstream” characters which may have some more recent interesting stories to go through?

Sure. Grant Morrison’s All Star Superman was end of 2005. His Batman run started in 2006, I believe. That’s worth getting, as well.

Jonathan Hickman’s Fantastic Four run, then his Avengers run and now his X-Men run.

Matt Fraction’s Hawkeye was a lot of fun. So was Mark Waid’s Daredevil run. And Ed Bruabker’s Captain Americas run (the Winter Soldier stuff in the movies comes from that run). And Jason Aaron’s Thor run (the upcoming Thor movie is based on Aaron’s run). And Vision by Tom King (the upcoming WandaVision TV series is pretty much based on that run).

There are others, but those are the easiest ones to recommend. I also did a reader poll where people voted on their favorite comics of the 2010s. You can check that out here and see if anything strikes your fancy.

Sweden is at 17.2 deaths per 100,000 while doing essentially nothing. New York is at 76.2.

Sweden: 64 people per sq. mile

NYC: 26,403 people per sq. mile

now take the L you fucking hack

thenoblefacehumper: What number are you comfortable with if it means avoiding “thorough economic destruction?”

You sincerely think I have an answer to that?

I’m not unsympathetic to the health effects of poor economic conditions–they’re well-documented and shape much of my worldview. But we can mitigate them to a large degree with stimulus, unemployment insurance, etc.

No, TNFH, you can’t. You’re talking about destroying the thing that funds everything.

Hubert, a lot of the country is interpreting Trumps words the way most of Knickerblogger and maybe not paying any attention to parsing their literal meaning. That means he shouldn’t have said what he did.

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:
Do deaths from Trump’s miracle hydroxychloroquine cure count? Or do you literally want to see someone drink bleach before coming down from your mountain of death and ignorance?

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v1.full.pdf

You pivot really fast.

KnickfaninNJ:
Hubert,a lot of the country is interpreting Trumps words the way most of Knickerblogger and maybe not paying any attention to parsingtheir literal meaning. That means he shouldn’t have said what he did.

Or it means you shouldn’t be doing that.

Or it means you shouldn’t be doing that.

No, it means that if you are the President of the United States and thus have literally the largest platform on planet Earth, you should filter your words at least as carefully as the average fucking high school student raising their hand in class and not say anything that can be reasonably interpreted as “people might want to think about putting toxic chemicals into their bloodstreams.”

Also, in an absolute shocker, turns out he likely got this cockamamie idea from one of the countless snake oil salesmen with the ear of the god damn White House.

You sincerely think I have an answer to that?

Yeah, well, you kind of need one if you’re going to try to make this ridiculous point.

No, TNFH, you can’t. You’re talking about destroying the thing that funds everything.

I mean, we just sent everyone $1,200. What’s the equivalent thing you could do if the economy was in better shape, but far, far more people had COVID-19?

I’m clearly punching above my weight class. I retire. I don’t know how you guys do this every day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKsIWM_-6y8

News Flash: Hubert is dug in on a moronic position!

Yeah, well, you kind of need one if you’re going to try to make this ridiculous point.

Can you tell me what is ridiculous about my point? And please do it without telling me what’s ridiculous about Donald Trump’s point or what’s ridiculous about a never-quarantine approach, since neither of those points were ever mine.

I’ll give you a specific argument of mine that I haven’t made here yet, and you can tell me what’s ridiculous about:

Pittsburgh could have been open two weeks ago. It has a strong medical community and sufficient testing capability. And its citizens are much more educated about social distancing and hand washing now than they were when all those numbers you cited were being accumulated. There is no need to continue keeping Pittsburgh in lockdown because of the problems in other parts of the country.

I’ll hang up and listen.

https://local.theonion.com/man-just-buying-one-of-every-cleaning-product-in-case-t-1842493766

3/25/20 2:18PM

Too good. Just too good indeed.

I’ll give you a specific argument of mine that I haven’t made here yet, and you can tell me what’s ridiculous about:

Pittsburgh could have been open two weeks ago. It has a strong medical community and sufficient testing capability. And its citizens are much more educated about social distancing and hand washing now than they were when all those numbers you cited were being accumulated. There is no need to continue keeping Pittsburgh in lockdown because of the problems in other parts of the country.

I’ll hang up and listen.

Where are you getting the idea that Pittsburgh specifically has anything approaching South Korea-level testing capacity? And let’s put ourselves in the fake world where they do for a second–what’s their plan to completely isolate their major metropolitan city from the rest of the country? It doesn’t matter how educated you are regarding social distancing when you are forced to go back to work in conditions that do not allow for it.

Sweden: 64 people per sq. mile

NYC: 26,403 people per sq. mile

I’mma be honest.

If some of these dumbshits who attended “open the economy rallies” catch COVID and then try to treat it by injecting bleach, that is probably a net positive for society as a whole.

So in that light Trump’s comments were actually kinda smart

Hubert, Sweden has performed much worse than it’s neighbors. Sweden didn’t close down, Norway and Denmark did. Norway and Denmark because they share a lot of similarities, including culture, geographical proximity, and population makeup (since we still don’t know how big an impact genetic susceptibility has on death rates yet). Numbers are Covid-19 deaths per million citizens and come from the covid dashboard which takes it’s numbers from the John Hopkins tracker.

Sweden: 203.92
Norway: 36.56
Denmark: 68.71

Sweden is not a success story. The US has obviously done far worse, but Sweden is also a warning that keeping things open kills people.

Hubert, the complete denial of anything gray or subtle is what defines the modern left these days. You’re never going to win.

Oh give me a fuggen break. I have a high paying job that’s in jeopardy because of the shutdown. You bet your ass I’m for opening the economy safely. So no, it’s not black and white and nobody is suggesting that we should leave everything shut forever until the virus is completely gone. Leave the straw man alone, he never did anything to you. He’s lying in the gutter with straw blood coming out of his straw ears, he has suffered enough.

Better testing, contract tracing, give me some of that shit. I’m super down for all of that. Let’s not rush back without any of the data we need though! Because guess what happens then? We have to do all of this shit all over again.

There’s some shades of grey for you.

Oh hey, Early Bird got there before me. What I get for not refreshing. So much tumult today!

Anyway, the estimate from the other day based on random testing by the state (very very peliminary numbers, huge bags of salt, ect) was the NYC has an infection rate of around 21%. Which gives a death rate of 0.78! Which is still very serious, but is better than some numbers were indicating.

Still a really really long way to go to normal, but that’s a good sign.

Watching Trump flail around on this bleach incident is pretty hilarious.

Now that he realizes he said something unfathomably stupid he is retconning that shit and reframing it as a sarcastic joke.

It’s exactly the equivalent of Tommy Wiseau telling people he intended “The Room” to be a black comedy after people started laughing uproariously at it.

By the way, Chris Cuomos wife Just bathed in bleach.

I work on a TV show. By nature people are working in close proximity on a set. Not me— I’m in post-production— but many people. At any given time there are dozens of electrical engineers, lighting techs, sound guys, carpenters, camera ops, hair and makeup people, you get the picture. A whole fuckload of people.

There is no way for this industry to run without massively improved testing. On-screen talent is not going to be willing to walk into an environment where there are dozens of crew people wandering around who may or may not be infected but there’s no way to really know because the testing is inadequate.

This isn’t a niche industry in my town, TV and film production are the lifeblood of this city. There is not really a viable way to open up that industry without comprehensive testing and contact tracing.

In other words my ass is probably out of a job unless California figures this shit out on her own.

There’s a lot of space between doing nothing and total lockdown.

That’s actually true! Unfortuantly what we are doing now is a long way from ‘total lockdown’. Total lockdown means you don’t get to leave your house. Cops hand out crippling fines to anyone caught outside without a permit. You get groceries and medicine delivered by schedule by a person in a hazmat suit. There’s no amazon delivery, no pick up/drop off laundry, none of that.

What you’re advocating for requires rapid mass testing and contact tracing. Like, everytime you go into your office building you get tested on the spot with immediate results style of rapid mass testing. There’s probably a better way to do it, maybe documents of a clean test that expires in 3 days? I dunno, I’m sure people are working on options. But you also need effective contact tracing so we can stop outbreaks before they get going.

In the absence of that any kind of sane reopening is going to look a lot like exactly what we’re already doing.

How many people think that the tough-talking, rough-riding, economy-opening, finance industry badass is out there volunteering to help those in need and putting his life on the line?

I’m a physician typing this at a hospital. Dude. Come on.

You’re not listening, people. You’re not listening to opposing points of view. They’re not even opposing. How many times does Hubert have to reiterate his statements?

What I love about Trump’s disinfectant bullshit the most is that he waited, like, a full day before he decided that it was just him being sarcastic. So he let his media people defend his original statement as not bullshit, he let his water holders go out there in comments sections and blogs and Facebook and rail against the media for misinterpreting how Trump’s statement wasn’t really bad and then he comes back, a day later, with “No, I was just joking.” That’s some hilarious shit. I can only imagine his Press Secretary, “Damn, dude, you have to tell me the lie we’re telling before you let me tell them a different lie!”

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:
How many people think that the tough-talking, rough-riding, economy-opening, finance industry badass is out there volunteering to help those in need and putting his life on the line?

Or … is he … safely working remotely at his finance job while …. demanding that mostly poor people and minorities go back to work and do things like ride public transit?

Oh, now I’m demanding poor people and minorities go back to work? Interesting. Here I thought I was just thinking we open up restaurants again in some cities (not New York) and get some limited projects that have been put on hold and don’t threaten anyone’s lives going again so some places didn’t have to go out of business and can continue employing people.

BTW I don’t know if you know this but poor people and minorities never stopped going to work and have been riding mass transit for the entirety of this time because the list of essential workers in this state is absurd. I think there’s 62 million? That could be stale data.

So, just to recap your position for you: it’s ok for our government instill a lockdown that forces minimum wage workers in NYC grocery stores and pharmacies to take the subway every day (bc they’re deemed essential for us to be able to stay home). But if I want a guy who has a business putting aluminum siding on houses in rural Pennsylvania to be able to go back to work to save his company, its employees, and their families, I’m some sort of animal.

I still love how I missed one game thread because it was Christmas and I later hear people talk about the bleach incident and I’m like, “Huh? How did I miss that?,” not thinking that it would have happened on a Christmas thread!

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: Or … is he … safely working remotely at his finance job while …. demanding that mostly poor people and minorities go back to work and do things like ride public transit?

I despise me some Hubert, but I have to call a flagrant 2 here. What one does in his/her job with his private time should be pretty much off limits here.

Brian Cronin: What I love about Trump’s disinfectant bullshit the most is that he waited, like, a full day before he decided that it was just him being sarcastic.

It was locker room talk.

It’s exactly the equivalent of Tommy Wiseau telling people he intended “The Room” to be a black comedy after people started laughing uproariously at it.

Such a good analogy.

What one does in his/her job with his private time should be pretty much off limits here.

IIRC I specifically told you to drink bleach because you strongly implied that I was a pisspoor educator, or at least lacked the moral character to be a good one… but carry on.

😉

All joking aside, I’m kinda with Hubert as far as the overall danger of people consuming bleach. If somebody is stupid enough to Darwin themselves because they followed medical advice that was dispensed by Donald Trump at one of his MAGA rallies disguised as a press conference, well that’s kinda just too bad.

I was angry that he began his gambit by saying, “I’m not going to read the thing you’re all referencing, but you’re probably misinterpreting it because that’s what you do.”

When you start there, it’s gonna be a bad time.

JK47: Better testing, contract tracing, give me some of that shit. I’m super down for all of that. Let’s not rush back without any of the data we need though! Because guess what happens then? We have to do all of this shit all over again.

There’s some shades of grey for you.

I think we have some commonality here. We may disagree on how much of this we already have. Some places have more of this than others. I mentioned Pittsburgh because it’s a healthcare hub of the country and it has enough furloughed government workers positioned to be retrained for contact tracing (which is actually not difficult to be trained for and doesn’t require medical workers).

Even if I were completely callous and only cared about the economy, everyone who is invested in the economy (and I mean the economy, not the stock market) knows that the worst thing you can do is open up too soon and have to shut down again.

But the goal wasn’t to stop anyone from getting it. The goal was to keep the hospital system from overloading. It never did. No one in NY was denied a respirator who needed one. The standard of care for every patient has been what it should be. If that’s what happened in NY, then other places without nearly the issues we have should be able to proceed with caution.

One cruel irony is that it seems that nearly everyone who was put on a ventilator in NYC died anyway.

wetbandit: Hubert, the complete denial of anything gray or subtle is what defines the modern left these days. You’re never going to win.

I appreciate the support, but let’s be honest: this isn’t a characteristic of the left. It’s the entire national conversation. I mean, just look at this blog. Some people think I’m a trump supporter and the most prominent Trump supporter thinks I’m a Bernie Bro. If you say anything that disagrees with someone, their natural instinct is to assume you belong in the other camp. It’s not a left or right thing.

They’re not even opposing. How many times does Hubert have to reiterate his statements?

Reopening restaurants in places that appear to have crested peak infections but are clearly still on the downslope is most defiantly and opposing viewpoint. It’s also a real fucking good way to jack those infections up higher than they were before. Assuming people actually go out, which seems iffy.

Huberts points are good. They’re being discussed by administrators and top experts, like, right now.

Hubert certainly seems to be saying that we should be doing this shit right fucking now, which is a far far cry from the people who are having constructive conversations about how we can most safely open things back up in the future when it is reasonable to do so. You should not conflate these two, extremely different, things.

EDIT: definitely, not defiantly.

Hubert: think we have some commonality here. We may disagree on how much of this we already have. Some places have more of this than others. I mentioned Pittsburgh because it’s a healthcare hub of the country and it has enough furloughed government workers positioned to be retrained for contact tracing (which is actually not difficult to be trained for and doesn’t require medical workers).

My sister was a physician in a Pitt hospital. Pitt serves as a regional medical hub for western Penn. Have you ever taken a look at the obesity rate in western Penn? They have a nickname for it at the hospitals there. It’s called the Pittsburgh Unit. A Unit is 200 pounds. People are described by their weight in terms of Units. Obesity is a co-morbidity that turns COVID into a super plague.

I don’t believe in God, but if I did, I would pray for the people of western Penn that nobody listens to Hubert’s crap.

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: My sister was a physician in a Pitt hospital. Pitt serves as a regional medical hub for western Penn. Have you ever taken a look at the obesity rate in western Penn? They have a nickname for it at the hospitals there. It’s called the Pittsburgh Unit. A Unit is 200 pounds. People are described by their weight in terms of Units. Obesity is a co-morbidity that turns COVID into a super plague.

I don’t believe in God, but if I did, I would pray for the people of western Penn that nobody listens to Hubert’s crap.

Your sister’s bosses who run her hospital are the ones who told me this “crap”.

Ok, I didn’t think anyone here was advocating opening right now.

I’m discussing safely opening in certain areas that are way past their peak- NYC in a couple of weeks, probably- because the second round of COVID infection that starts when people get out IS going to happen, so I would slow it with mitigation measures (social distancing, no dining in restaurants, take out only, work from home whenever possible, etc). It’s worth talking about in more sparsely populated areas, like rural counties. I could be wrong, and open to hearing alternatives. But we’re obviously not shut down until a vaccine comes out. So then, when?

Hubert: This is an article about cancer patients who died because they couldn’t get their treatment because hospitals wouldn’t admit people at high-risk.Don’t you think that’s moving the goal posts?

You said the hospital system isn’t overloaded. But in fact, the hospital system is overloaded. Would you like articles about delayed routine-vaccinations for young children? Because right now my 20-month old daughter is not getting her regularly scheduled vaccinations, which means entirely preventable diseases may kill her.

wetbandit:
Ok, I didn’t think anyone here was advocating opening right now.

I’m discussing safely opening in certain areas that are way past their peak- NYC in a couple of weeks, probably- because the second round of COVID infection that starts when people get out IS going to happen, so I would slow it with mitigation measures (social distancing, no dining in restaurants, take out only, work from home whenever possible, etc). It’s worth talking about in more sparsely populated areas, like rural counties. I could be wrong, and open to hearing alternatives. But we’re obviously not shut down until a vaccine comes out. So then, when?

Wetbandit, this above is a well-reasoned argument. I agree with your take here. This is the practice of nuance that you argued for previously. However, let’s be clear, this is not the approach that Hubert was advocating.

I don’t believe in God

oh yeah, baby…you’re on the fast track to hell with those kind of crazy thoughts…oh wait, you probably don’t believe in hell either…well damn, guess you actually got nothing to worry about then…you’ll end up just occupying some copy universe somewhere else caught up in all that weird quantum shit when you’re time here is done…

geo: oh yeah, baby…you’re on the fast track to hell with those kind of crazy thoughts…oh wait, you probably don’t believe in hell either…well damn, guess you actually got nothing to worry about then…you’ll end up just occupying some copy universe somewhere else caught up in all that weird quantum shit when you’re time here is done…

Wait, this isn’t hell?

wetbandit:
Ok, I didn’t think anyone here was advocating opening right now.

I’m discussing safely opening in certain areas that are way past their peak- NYC in a couple of weeks, probably- because the second round of COVID infection that starts when people get out IS going to happen, so I would slow it with mitigation measures (social distancing, no dining in restaurants, take out only, work from home whenever possible, etc). It’s worth talking about in more sparsely populated areas, like rural counties. I could be wrong, and open to hearing alternatives. But we’re obviously not shut down until a vaccine comes out. So then, when?

Yeah we’re talking about the same thing. Grocer misstated my position. I was also talking about rural areas, places that didn’t have outbreaks, and cities that can already meet the necessary medical standards.

As you seem to know, we’re not waiting til we have a cure. Flatten the curve never meant we stop the spread, it meant some catch it now, some catch it later, but no one should catch it when we don’t have the capacity to care for them.

The argument Grocer seems to want to make is that we should open up not when we have capacity to treat everyone, but when the disease goes away. I’ve not touched that, because it’s not going to happen.

Don Lemon et al’s rants are also so dripping with condescension (and dishonesty half the time) that I can’t watch more than a few minutes. Not that I can watch Fox News dry hump Trump posters all day, or MSNBC burn photos of him… but come on, CNN is supposed to be somewhat neutral… what am I supposed to watch, man?

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: Wetbandit, this above is a well-reasoned argument. I agree with your take here. This is the practice of nuance that you argued for previously.However, let’s be clear, this is not the approach that Hubert was advocating.

It is literally what I advocated.

“I am curious, what is the required number of Ventilators?”

The required number is the number needed to accomplish the task. The entire USA inventory (federally) was around 10,000 and he gave NY 4,000 and then an additional , He had to hold some back for the other 315,000,000 Americans although he was roundly pilloried here a month ago for that wise decision. He actually played that perfectly.

Unlike the famous “New Yorker” cartoon…. all people living west of the Hudson River aren’t valueless barbarians:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Steinberg_New_Yorker_Cover.png

It is literally what I advocated.

you have angered the mob, thirsty for some payback – your are the living embodiment of our not so esteemed potus…today is your day hubie 🙂

if you got any lifelines left – ya better call in bob for backup…

In response to a remark made by President Trump, officials across the country are having to warn people against ingesting cleaning products. On Friday, after receiving more than 100 calls to its hotline seeking more information about the president’s claim, the Maryland Emergency Management Agency advised residents against using disinfectant products to treat the coronavirus.

“This is a reminder that under no circumstances should any disinfectant product be administered into the body through injection, ingestion or any other route,” the agency tweeted.

The onslaught represented the most calls the state received on any single topic since the coronavirus pandemic began, said Mike Ricci, a spokesman for Gov. Larry Hogan (R).

The Twitter account for the Washington state Military Department and Emergency Management division cautioned: “Please don’t eat tide pods or inject yourself with any kind of disinfectant.”

The Milwaukee Health Commissioner announced that the city will have data on poisonings tied to disinfectant ingestions next week, according to several media reports.

The problem with Trump and the idiotic things he says at his “press conferences” is that there is so much conflicting information being dumped on the public everyday. And people on all sides of the political spectrum are scared and confused. But instead of stepping back and letting his team of experts talk to America, he gets up and pretends that he’s the one that’s got all the good ideas.

It’s like if Dolan came to the Knicks practice and started diagramming offensive schemes that involve Payton jumping back-and-forth across the half-court line while Mitch stands in the paint for 4 seconds, and Barrett uses the scorers table as a screen to get open. And when the players question the legality of his plays, he turns to the coaches and asks them to validate him while reminding them that he has a great you-know-what and that he likes to fire people. So they say nothing.

Now imagine he does this in public, and that the success of the Knicks was the most important thing in the world to everybody, everywhere. Would Dolan have any supporters here? Would Hubert say “he’s just being harmlessly sarcastic”? Would Bob say “Donald Sterling was worse”? Or would everybody agree that he should put the best team of players, coaches, and managers together and get the fuck out.

Hahahaha haha this dude is defending the “let’s try injecting bleach” idea

Just take the L on this one homey”

Are you really a school administrator? Can you read?

I said clorox is injected into horses as a BUFFER. It is used as a sly way to circumnavigate the TCO2 test and delay lactic acidosis which causes fatigue (which is a bad thing in racing horses.)

I posted it to say that large mammals can tolerate injections of clorox in small amounts. I wouldn’t recommend it without supporting clinical data.

I AM curious, though…. when someone offers to buy you a drink in a bar and you accept, do you always order “Vinegar and water?”

***Are you really a school administrator? Can you read?***

Not that it matters, and yes he can read, but JK47 is a keyboardist.

Are you really a school administrator? Can you read?

I said clorox is injected into horses as a BUFFER. It is used as a sly way to circumnavigate the TCO2 test and delay lactic acidosis which causes fatigue (which is a bad thing in racing horses.)

Dude, I know you love the fragrant aroma of Trump’s farts but this was some dumb motherfucking shit the guy said. I don’t really give a fuck about Clorox being injected into horses and whether that is a viable procedure. This MF was talking out his ass, trying to sound all sciencey like he thought of some shit the doctors hadn’t considered.

“You spray Lysol on the virus and it dies. Why not INJECT the Lysol? BOOM, CORONA CURE BITCHES, TRUMP 2020. LOOK INTO IT, BIRXY. YOU’RE WELCOME.”

You don’t have to try to defend every dumbshit thing the guy says. Just let it go. Get ’em tomorrow, tiger.

JK47 is a keyboardist

JK is our music muse who makes me feel almost famous…

and, there is no substitute:
BOOM, CORONA CURE BITCHES, TRUMP 2020. LOOK INTO IT, BIRXY. YOU’RE WELCOME

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: Claiming that NY was a success

I have consistently said that I think NY is the biggest failure in the world.

But we did not run out of respirators. So Jared Kushner did hang an L on you.

You only get to go to the stockpile when you run out. That was the point. I don’t like the man, but that was his point.

You don’t have to try to defend every dumbshit thing the guy says. Just let it go. Get ’em tomorrow, tiger.

And then Trump says, “Yeah, that was intentionally dumb, I was just joking” after people bent over backwards trying to explain why it wasn’t. It must be awful to defend the guy’s dumb points and then have the guy himself go, “No, that was purposefully dumb. It was sarcasm.” I expect the next time Trump says something dumb and people defend it, Trump will say the next day, “Yesterday was Opposite Day.”

bobneptune: The required number is the number needed to accomplish the task.

Not really an answer. How can you state the ask was too much if you don’t have a measurable value for the demand? I worry about statements getting tossed around that sound like Cable TV Opinion outlet echoes.

4,000 Ventilators is less than 20 beds per hospital in NYS. I don’t know what the right answer is, but projecting the amount of cases, 20,000 have died in NYS alone, and a quarter million known cases, 20 beds can fill up fast. So the ask was unreasonable vs the available inventory, and skewed as “greedy”, but perhaps reasonable for the projected demand. I can’t imagine the ask was made in a vacuum, without doing some sort of projection of need.

I suppose its simple naive math on my part, but it passe the scouting eye test.

Most of NYS is west of the Hudson.

NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: We only had the necessary capacity because people STOPPED going to the hospital. How is that a victory?

The first sentence is probably your first good point of the day.

The second sentence is irrelevant bc I never said NY is a victory. I was making a distinction between people who think the point of lockdown is to end coronavirus vs the reality that it wasn’t. I get that you’re having a hard time answering my main point, because I’m right, so you’re either shifting the goal post or focusing on one thing you can find that wasn’t written well.

I’ve said it 100 times and I’ll say it again: I’m advocating a solution between total lockdown for all parts of all states and going back to the way things were in January. If some people get that I’m saying that (and some definitely do) I know that if you think it’s something else, it’s not the message, it’s you.

this is game over right? right? right?

wait, what…there’s a game going on…here…what’s the prize?

Hubert, you wrote the following: “Did he actually create enough of a danger that lysol needed to tell people not to drink bleach? This was the idea that I objected to.”

The answer again is yes. He did create the danger. And now government agencies are responding to it.

You keep writing that I read your posts too literally. But this is how the process of argument works. You make assertions, and then you build on those assertions to form claims. The problem here is that your underlying assertions are false. Thus, your claims are weak.

ma scheduled us for the nasal swab thing next week…i have mixed feelings about going to go do any test unless it’s to tell me whether or not i have the antibodies…i guess it’s better to know…i’m surprised i’m this hesitant to want to do it though…

still a bunch of things i’m not sure about regarding the virus…number one is that i heard that contracting the virus and getting over it may not guarantee immunity going forward (i’m not really sure why – cuz it mutates?)…

i remember also hearing at one point, early on i think, that the probability of contact over the next year or so was around 80% of the US population…i’m not sure if that’s still true though…supposedly only about 5% of us at this point have come in contact with the virus…

i mentioned it earlier – but, kind of freaked me out a bit that those tigers and a lion at the bronx zoo have the virus…that’s a disturbing thought that this thing can pass between species at this point…i don’t know – i didn’t think that was a normal thing with viruses…i guess maybe it is…

I need to cook dinner and have sex with my neighbor now. Good night.

oh yes, we soooo need zoom…i want in on hubert’s world…

Where is Bill Goldman when we need him….

What does anyone think of the Giants pick or the Jets trade down?

The Jets got players at positions of need that were highly ranked. Though other than QB and S every spot is a spot of need.

“i think dave gettlemen is really weird for sitting in an empty room (in his house i presume) with a mask on…”

The man recently recovered from cancer after chemotherapy and has a compromised immune system and he has young tech guys in his house for the logistical support…. hence the “weird”{ mask

I would have liked for the Jets to have picked up Zach Baun…

Unfortunately this is the Jets so the fear/assumption is they will cut Adams loose

The task then is developing them. Not a historic strong point, but these are new people so I will hope.

Deference to ancient wisdom…

Mask off…musta heard you geo

“i like the peart pick…skipping on simmons still burns from yesterday…”

I’m guessing Daniel Jones and Saquan Barkley are pretty happy with the OT choice 🙂 It’s pretty hard to be a competitive offense if you can’t block it up…. Now if he can find a center…….

The goal was to keep the hospital system from overloading. It never did.

It’s not a pedantic W, and you’ve placed the pedantic mask on the wrong face. The goal was to keep the hospital system from being overwhelmed and unable to to provide the care they normally provide. The system ended up massively overwhelmed, a huge failure, and not just in NYC. NY State’s estimate for Covid-19 deaths includes people who weren’t tested but showed symptoms. Total deaths over that period are still significantly higher than typical after discounting the covid-19 deaths, despite the fact that massive economic contractions historically reduce mortality. Not many traffic related deaths, for instance. That discrepancy exists in a lot of other places in the US as well.

But to your credit, based on what you meant if there’s a pedantic W here I suppose it belongs to you. You and Kushner, providing you believe the numbers on ventilators. There’s not much reason to do so, since at best it means other types of patients went without. Whatever. Glad you’ve come around on the need for mass testing and contact tracing.

i’m guessing Daniel Jones and Saquan Barkley are pretty happy with the OT choice 🙂 It’s pretty hard to be a competitive offense if you can’t block it up…. Now if he can find a center…….

I ain’t gonna bullshit bob, I don’t really pay that close attention to details when it comes to my favorite teams…maybe a little bit with the yanks…but, even that’s years ago…

I’ve watched a handful of giants games over the last 3 or 4 seasons…just got tired of watching them lose….

if it wasn’t for ya’ll, I’d have probably stopped caring about the knicks years ago…

I’d say this though about gettlemen, I just don’t have a lot of faith in him…sure barkley is great, and jones in of himself (discounting his draft position) seems like a good pickup – both high character, face of a franchise type people…but, drafts and free agents, coaches – the whole picture thing, it just seems like the game has moved past him…

call it age discrimination, but, he doesn’t seem right for the job – today, and, if the team doesn’t make some strides in the next two years, he’ll be gone…

I’m too lazy to look at which gm’s are successful, but, seems if you can’t get an existing good GM, go young at least…

despite a super bowl appearance, I’m not sure he did that great a job in carolina…

and yeah, turns out he did have some tech in the room with him…

gotta love belichick chilling on nantucket letting his dog take his seat…

Hubert: It’s a human resource problem.

We’re not waiting until we have enough kits to test every civilian.You need to have the capacity to test the same number of civilians consistently and see a drop in the % positive.We’re going to extrapolate.But we have to keep the level consistent. You can’t be finding less cases because you’re testing less people.

Pittsburgh didn’t have a lot of cases, so it doesn’t need a hard-to-procure amount of test kits.NYC had a lot of cases, it needs a lot of test kits.

The bread and butter is in the contact tracing, and it’s dependent on the strength of each region’s local health department.It’s very resource intensive and requires a work force that needs to be ramped up considerably in most places. Some as much as 50%.If you happen to be in a city with a lot of medical students, like Pittsburgh, you have a distinct edge in your ability to produce the amount of workers your local health department needs to test and do the contact tracing and the lab work.It’s also not super hard to train people to do this, and we expect to be able to repurpose nonessential government workers to be part of that work force. That’s another area that Pittsburgh happens to have resources on hand for.

You also need to have enough of a medical force so that you don’t divert medical resources from the rest of the community.Places with large medical university centers are going to have a distinct advantage in that area, too.You can use a student to do the contact tracing and let the cardiologist do what he’s supposed to do.

^ yeah, this is a guy who doesn’t believe in testing or understand contact tracing.

Perhaps Bob hit the nail on the head and you two are so NY-centric that you can’t even conceive that someone is thinking of places that aren’t NY or large cities.

I’m not sticking around to find out.

“I expect Thomas to be a good tackle bc I trust Gettelman’s ability to identify talent. But he was projected to go between 10 and 15. There was a special player available at 4. I agree with everything you’re saying about his fit and what he’ll do, I just hate passing on a special player to draft for need at #4.”

I really don’t get this position. The Giants are bereft of OT’s. You can’t run an offense without the edge protection and lack of drive blocking they have. They needed to land at the very least a starting right tackle in this draft if they want to keep Jones alive for the year.

You may say Thomas was projected to go 10 – 15 but clearly the Giant staff though him by far the best tackle prospect in the draft. The logic was clear…. he dominated in the SEC for 4 seasons facing the best pass rushers in college football. They had tons of film on him and thought him the best OT in the draft. And in that film he bitch slapped Josh Allen when they faced eachother.

The 3 most valuable positions in the NFL are QB, edge rusher and LT. They don’t need a QB. and edge rusher wasn’t available so they went for the best player at the most valuable position.

Clearly the were willing to trade down if something was available in the top of the draft where they would still grab a OT they loved. Thomas “might” have been the only one they loved but there wasn’t a team 7-12 or so that was willing to pay for Tua or Herbert

Just for an example… would you feel comfortable picking Beckton who checked into Louisville at 390 last season?. His dad runs about 420 or so and his mom is was over 200 and is a professional soul food chef. What are the chances this kid goes keto and becomes buffed. Better chance he eats himself out of the league

You asked about Nate Soldier….. it’s been pretty ugly.

However while they did over pay him about 20% to market value in 2018, you really didn’t want Eli Manning being protected by Erick Flowers, did you on the left side?

He was their most glaring need (LT). He was 29 years off coming off 7 seasons keeping Brady upright against the best competition in the league. The had a glaring need and they fill it with a player that everyone loved at the time.

That he injured his neck in 2018 training camp and the played through an ankle injury that necessitated surgery at the end of the 2019 season where he missed all the OTAs for 2020 and almost ended up on the pup list I don’t see how that is the GM’s fault.

They certainly overpaid about 20% at the time, but they needed a plug n play LT after the previous regime had left the cupboard completely bare.

bobneptune: Wow…. Earth to pot…… Earth to pot…. we have a black kettle here with your name on it……

First nice day we’ve had in a while…all kinds of slimy things are crawling out from under rocks.

Sorry I reread you comment, I guess I’m being a bit sensitive and your point wasn’t that we were making too big a deal, it was that maybe other places can relax their social distancing because even NYC wasn’t overwhelmed. That’s still wrong because your premise was wrong (NYC hospitals were overwhelmed, even if ventilators were not explicitly rationed).

this thread isn’t complete without this gem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPDPzbLFeP4