2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ The Team That Missed Out On Both Frank Ntilikina AND Dennis Smith Jr. in the 2017 Draft

Is this the most caustic Brian pre-game recap we’ve seen so far? I’m digging it.

Total dig.

The ultimate knicksy stat: the guy Knox allegedly roasted in that infamous 3-on-3 game may be the only rookie from that class who Knox is better than. Click HERE and look at the two players at the bottom.

It would be kind of funny if Knox really did just crush the guy in 3 on 3, but only because he was the only other lottery guy worse than Knox.

this team will never start mitchell robinson

Knox is ready to doninate as a C-Male Gnu on the next seasons.

top quality thread intro btw, Brian

Portis showcase game – nice.

I think mitch can shoot and work from the post…I just know he can hit that sky hook…

forgot gorbert is playing tonight…should be a good night for frank…seems to play well when one of his french team buddies is around…

Only down 5 !
We’re goooood

Knox and RJ can watch some film of themselves doing the wrong thing defending the pick and roll

when wally says rj is too good of shooter to be a bad ft shooter what is he talking about?

Another strong drive by the General

Look like shit but only down 6 !!!
Wow

the jazz are a good team, playing well right now…

ellington, knox and portis are going to kill us tonight…

we can’t stop the gobert pick and roll at all

that was new little hesi step back from knox there on that foul line miss

all these shots right in front of portis with mitch sitting on the bench…. smh…

and we got bobby out there to hit that one 3… hope that was worth it…

Not bad !

as the only man left standing i need to tell you they are looking at another portis melo head swipe right now

Going forward Pills have to retool the team around Booby Portis! Such a talented young man with an intriguingly modern game chock full of upside – it’s a no-brainer to take his patented “shoot a bunch, get some boards and crazy eyes” play style over that unproven schmuck Robinson’s empty calorie highlight reel blocks and dunks!!!

/s

frank career hi 2 pts away

Frank’s game yells:
This one’s for you stat freaks !

My wife is from Utah and I can attest that the racial makeup of the dancers is an accurate representation of the whole state.

we appreciate the real time shooting % updates… glad we can count on you for that…

do you track anyone else or just frank?

well i actually appreciate 2p% on volume but i’m sure you know what the nswer to that is…

or you could update everyone on that too while you’re at it since you’re being so thoughtful….

Frank is still going to have his share of bad shooting nights and temporary comas, but if you still can’t see what he can become in 3-4 years when he reaches his peak, I don’t know what to say.

He’s getting better at virtually every facet of the game, albeit very slowly. As his confidence grows (something that’s been holding him back), it’s not impossible he takes a bigger jump up than even the optimists expect.

And not so long ago some people wanted to trade him for a bag of beans rather than pick up a few million of salary.

Frank is still going to have his share of bad shooting nights and temporary comas, but if you still can’t see what he can become in 3-4 years when he reaches his peak, I don’t know what to say.

I was told a few hours ago that no one has ever said anything like this

wait a minute now early bird, so are you stating that hoping for a fiery demise of our front office is a little extreme…

that all I really should be hoping for is 30 point losses…that in of itself should be sufficient for any sort of fandom service…

I’ll be honest, I’m really thinking a well placed meteor would speed the whole road to contention process along rather quickly…

Wasn’t someone saying quite snidely the other day something, something about how we should carefully monitor the great gem E. Payton’s +/- vs poor incompetent Frank????

May the words you choose be soft and sweet because they soon may be the words toy will have to eat…..

Frank’s back story is so crazy I find it impossible not to outwardly root for him.

https://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/frank-ntilikina-s-family-ties-run-strong-1.16802314

Separated single mom escapes genocide and come back to a refugee camp to bring her family to Europe….. works and puts one son through medical school and another becomes an NBA player ….someone I can feel unabashedly good rooting for.

I realize his first two seasons have been mired in varying degrees of suck, but he is getting better and is still a child. I find it pretty funny his TS% is within .002 of a Max player who we sold “on the cheap” for 2 #1 picks and a ton of cap space and is 3 years younger than said player, but it is unpossible for Frank to become a useful NBA player.

I for one am very happy for Frank’s real progress this year and wish him the best. He is a completely easy guy to root for if you have realistic expectations.

It isn’t his fault he was the 8th player taken in the draft.

Frankie Bust now has a higher WS/48 than Elf the Floor General.

I know where my love for Frank stems from…it comes from the genius nerve nebula storage facility in my brain where both pitcures of young Miles Davis and Frank lay one over another and I can’t tell them apart.When I see Frank I see Miles…They apear and love chimes in. One picture one emotion…love and adoration.
I suspect that Frank was misplaced there by some mistake or by the shere greatness of Davis’ gravity force.
Now Frank “only” has to find ways to earn that position in my brain. So far he didn’t pay any rent in the facility.

My wife is from Utah and I can attest that the racial makeup of the dancers is an accurate representation of the whole state.

It certainly is… as someone who exiled themselves to the University of Utah in the early 70’s (it was 480 miles to the nearest race track Centennial Downs in Denver) Utah is the most under rated spot in this country for beautiful women.

The Mormons sent huge numbers of missionaries to Scandinavian the late 1800’s and early 20th century. If you look through the Salt Lake phone book you’d think you are looking at the Copenhagen directory.

God bless those “Granola Girls” from Utah…….

Frank’s TS% in January so far is 61.8%. Just sayin……

I know where my love for Frank stems from

So do I.

Other than his poor handle (which makes him ill equipped to be a team’s primary ballhandler), nearly all his issues seem to be mental and stem from anxiety. I’ve never argued that his numbers aren’t bad or that the numbers themselves don’t tell the whole story. He has been shit and I know it.

But I suspect he currently suffers from incredible anxiety and imposter syndrome, something I know all too well about. When you put someone who thinks too much and isn’t sure of himself in an environment dominated by Alpha males where even the talentless ones have no self doubt at all, those people will struggle in the beginning. They need to be managed by intelligent people who see their talent and help them work through the mental aspect. Frank has been in the total opposite environment, he got beat on every day for not being aggressive, that has only doubled down his anxiety and self doubt.

As this was the core struggle of my early professional career, it’s pretty easy for me to see when others are suffering from it. Granted, there could be a bias in me that projects it on others. All of us are a little narcissist and tend to see ourselves in people when we’re not really there. But even my ex-girlfriend, a practicing psychiatrist, took one look at the guy giving an interview and with no prior knowledge of him said “he’s having a panic attack right now.”

Cont’d….

there just isn’t any doubt that he’s getting a lot better this year

based on what? what exactly has improved that isn’t explained by him having to get down to a microscopic # of attempts? most of his rosy shooting #s are explained by exactly that… and the fact that other teams decide to just leave him open most of the time….

a month ago we were talking about career highs in stls and blks…. that has and is rapidly evaporating… we were also talking about mr no doubt knox improving also… that also has rapidly evaporated…. can we even find those guys anymore? where have they gone?

maybe this is sustainable for the next 5 games… but over the entire season? well maybe that too… but don’t pitch this as some good thing long term… it’s most definitely not that…

i would enjoy it… if you’re a fan of frank this is about as good as it gets…. but pawn off garbage analysis as some no doubt thing… that’s gonna end up looking quite stupid in not too long a time….

I am happy to get anyone on the record saying WS48, BPM, etc. are good ways to evaluate Frank Ntilikina.

Call me a wet blanket, hater, whatever all you want, but last night’s game as actually a very good illustration of why I’m not buying the Ntilikina leap.

After going 3-3 from the 16<3 range last night, he's now at .523 from there on the season and takes a boatload of his shots (21.5%) from that notoriously inefficient area. Dirk Nowitzki’s career high from that range was .513, and he was only at .500+ 3 times.

That accounts for the overwhelming majority of the “leap” we’ve seen, because he really hasn’t gotten better in any other areas as djphan alludes to above.

So yeah, if you think Frank is now better than Dirk Nowitzki at hitting long twos you should feel free to dunk on me and be very excited. You’re putting an incredible amount of faith in a trend that seems flagrantly anomalous to me, but hey, I hope you are in fact correct and we now have Frank Ntiliwitzki.

and interestingly enough, DeAnthony Melton, who we all loved coming into the draft (but we took Mitch instead).

admittedly it’s about forever early to be calling game on this, but i don’t see how anyone can stop me:

ptmilo
June 21, 2018 at 9:48 pm
now I’m rooting for Melton to fall to 36. I have silly drama of him being the new Alvin Robertson.

http://bkref.com/tiny/9aS8s

not sure why it autocorrected into drama instead of “dream” like i was gennady golovkin

a month ago we were talking about career highs in stls and blks…. that has and is rapidly evaporating…

for the record he is still averaging career-highs in steals and blocks.
and career lows in turnovers
and career highs in offensive rating
and 2p%
and 3p%
and TS
and FT%
and FTR
and AST%
and OWS
and DWS
and WS/48
and OBPM
and DBPM
and BPM
and VORP
and PER
and RPM

nobleface – i hear what you’re saying, but his TS is also improved related to better higher 3 point rate, slightly higher 3p%, and at least compared to last year, better and more frequent finishing at the rim.

Frank does take a bunch of shots from the mid-range. But, unlike Melo or Nowitzki, who also took a lot of mid range shots, he seems to be wide open when he does it. I think that’s sustainable if the shots aren’t from close to the three point line. Melo and Nowizki were always guarded, so they are not fair comps. If Frank numbers go up and teams start to regard him as an offensive threat, teams might start guarding him closer. Then his mid range shots will go down again, but that’s ok, it make the offense a bit easier for the rest of the team.

I have always liked Frank and always been a little more optimistic than the pessimists. But I still don’t see how all this ends with us signing him to a deal that generates major surplus.

Still, I definitely like watching him play and when he rose up last night and swished that 18 footer it was the most excitement I have felt for a midrange jumpshot in years.

everyone goes through anxiety…when it happens on the court.. it’s usually a sign of someone being overmatched..

can we blame anxiety for darkos failures? what about kwame?

You get through anxiety by doing stuff… Practicing.. Gaining skills.. knowledge and experience… Over the long run.. you can’t blame performance issues on anxiety alone.. it means you either don’t have the ability or you’re not preparing…

Out in the real world… You can blame external factors… Bosses or clients giving unrealistic targets is just one example… Out on the court.. unless you’re injured.. if you’ve been given plenty of opportunity.. which Frank has
gotten (despite some efforts to say he’s been held down when he’s gotten 3600 minutes so far).. and not having injury… Which Frank hasn’t (despite some efforts to make one up for him)… then you need to perform..

And he hasn’t.. and there aren’t indications that he will get there …

Yes, how dare Frank actually make the shots he takes!

Like I said, I hope he keeps doing it! I don’t care one bit about having been right or wrong about his future prospects–if I’m wrong, and he is in fact now a Nowitzki-level midrange shooter, I will be perfectly comfortable with the process I used to come to my conclusion.

My point is that if you normalize his 16<3 FG%, everything else starts to look a lot more like the Frank Ntilikina we saw in years 1-2.

Frank (the poster) is right that he’s taking a higher percentage of his shots from 3, but he’s taking so few shots in general these days that his 3PA/36 is actually down compared to last year. He’s also right that his FTr has seen a bump…but again, we’re dealing with such tiny usage that has amounted to 1.6 FTA/36 compared to 1.4 and 1.2 from his first two seasons. Same story with his TOs–he’s turning it over less because he’s doing few things, but his TOV% is actually up from last year.

In other words, if you’re buying the leap, you’re buying the He Became Dirk Theory, because everything else is variance with little-to-no statistical relevance.

Seriously guys, I’d much rather the Knicks have a secret two-way stud on the roster than be right on a message board. I promise you that. I am simply saying why I personally don’t think he’s made a quantum leap 😉

I’ll actually put some skin in the game and predict (barring injury that ruins the sample size) that his 16<3 FG% comes down, and it brings his TS% to .480 or below on the season. Signing this post with a regular refrain: hope I'm wrong!

I don’t think he’s clinically anxious in any serious sense, but I do think there was a significant adjustment to the American expectations of how a point guard is supposed to play, which had significant mental effects on things like assertiveness and confidence. That adjustment is ongoing.

And, let’s face reality, he’s had to do all this adjusting for a dreadful coach with a record of borderline prejudice against Europeans, and a dreadful, pitifully incompetent organization.

I’m not going to make any predictions because I think his groin is still hurt. (I’ll eat the no skin in the game accusations.) He’s running and moving with his …. glutes … stuck out in a way that he wasn’t before and, while he’s still an excellent defender, he’s not the whirling dervish holy terror he was prior to the Boston home game when he tweaked it.

Which is why he’s perpetually listed as questionable in the pregames.

That’s the easy way out, yeah, but that’s my good faith belief. He’s got good shooting form, takes good care of the ball, and is an elite defender. Those are the raw materials that can be built upon. I’ll leave it at that.

My point is that if you normalize his 16<3 FG%, everything else starts to look a lot more like the Frank Ntilikina we saw in years 1-2.

I like this analysis of Frank’s shooting. The way I’m seeing it is Frank was previously good at nothing on offense. He now has a bit of a bread and butter – he runs a pick and roll and pulls up around the foul line. He has been making that shot very consistently, it’s also been extremely uncontested consistently, in part I think because a lot of NBA defenses now are geared to give up that shot – they want to prevent the PG from driving or pulling up from 3 but will live with that shot – and in part because they probably haven’t been treating Frank as much of a threat.

I would add to your point about regression to the mean that there’s also the question of how far you can take an offensive game with that as the core strength. That’s exactly why NBA defenses are designed to give up that shot, because even if it’s open, and you hit it at a good rate, there’s still a cap on how efficient you can be doing that. So making that shot has been a good way for Frak to go from truly awful to only kind of awful in efficiency terms, but the next step to true respectability will probably have to look significantly different even if the midrange shooting is real. Still I think seeing him add anything to his offensive game (after two years of largely failing to do so) has to be encouraging.

I agree that hitting an open foul line jumper off a pick and roll isn’t going to drive volume shooting or great efficiency, but it makes his pick and rolls better, which is a very good thing. I predict that if he keeps hitting that shot, defenses will start paying attention and he will get fouled more, which will contribute to good efficiency.

Absolutely, or a grave injury. I doubt we’ll see him for awhile — that’s ok.

I think part of Frank’s improved play is again due to Miller. It’s just eyetest, but it looks like Miller is able to have Frank start the PnR near the FT line rather than the 3pt line. By putting Frank closer to the basket it allows him to rely on his passing and minimizes the need for his still semi-terrible handles. Moreover I think Frank can use his length to shoot over people the way Mudiay does (Mudiay continues his ridiculous midrange shooting this year). It’s not an optimal 3 or layup play but it does appear to maximize Frank’s skillset.

FWIW, RAPTOR and RPM both still rate Payton significantly higher than Frank. Both have him better on offense. RAPTOR even prefers Payton’s defense by a lot.

So if you guys want we can always argue about that now, can’t let the Frank arguments die.

Highest TS by a country mile (cringe)
Best AST:TO ratio (2.4:1)
Best 3P% (cringe)
Best on/off net rating also by a mile (+6.9)
Best offensive on/off (+5.2) despite being thought to be an offensive zero
Obviously the best defender
Youngest

I don’t know where you got the AST:TO number but I’m fairly certain Payton is significantly better. Not trying to start an argument, just curious if you’re seeing that somewhere esle. Per BKRef:

Payton Totals: 113 AST, 45 TO
Frank Totals: 113 AST, 38 TO

Payton AST:TO = 2.97
Frank AST:TO = 2.51

Dotson actually leads the team in AST:TO ratio at over 3, but both total numbers are of course minuscule

As a side note, Payton is inexplicably having his worst shooting year, worse than even his rookie year (although it could change after a game). Could that be a lingering hamstring issue or something else? Stress from a pregnant spouse?

1st – …For the actual entire season his 2p% has increased to 45.6%, which while not great, is, you know, a lot higher than the 37 and 38% he shot his first 2 seasons…

why are we looking at this in a vacuum? his attempts in 2p territory have gone down over 25% to do it.. and these are the widest of open opportunities.. he wasn’t even guarded or contested on any of his makes last night.. what skill has he actually gained?

2nd – he’s cut his turnovers from 2.8-> 2.2 -> 2 per 36 –

if his attempts are down that means he’s actually handling the ball less.. and hence less turnovers.. as a function of his overall ball handling ability these are fake gains also…. tov% captures this..

3rd – his free throw rate is “up” to 17.1%.

again a function of his decreased attempts across the board…

4th – the team just plays better with him on the floor.

claimed without evidence…

djphan – i know you are invested in Frank sucking because you’ve come out so adamantly against him and because you’ve spent so much time watching film. But the numbers are right in front of you.

the difference between you and me is that i don’t just stop as soon as i find something good to talk about frank…. i’m in the frank sucks camp because he sucks. and for whatever reason there’s a very loud contingent who refuse to accept it.. and for whatever reason whenever he has a strong game we get the same cast of characters popping out of the woodwork to wag their fingers at the rest of the people but for a month we managed to get some silence…. which oh so happened to coincide with frank sucking…

if you want to shove variance in ppl’s faces and claim victory go ahead.. i imagine you’ll retreat onto your frank island shortly with rest of the cast of characters until theres more variance you can come up for oxygen on..

By putting Frank closer to the basket it allows him to rely on his passing and minimizes the need for his still semi-terrible handles.

That’s an interesting observation. I haven’t picked that up but seems plausible.

this has the makings of a solid pivot to a 300-post pizza/bagel thread

A while ago we discussed at length why RAPTOR is a terrible metric.

I missed that discussion or don’t recall it unless it was more generally about all-in-one numbers or using +/- data. I’m always skeptical about defensive data. I do think people on this board overrate Frank’s defense a lot. He’s a plus, but he’s not an all-world, game-changing defender outside of a 6 game stretch.

The number can be wrong or the perception can be wrong, it could be A it could be B.

My point, Hubert, was more that when we start speculating about people suffering from anxiety issues, when there’s no real indication (specially coming from the guy himself), we trivialize the subject. Anxiety is a very real thing that in my opinion needs to be treated carefully, with proper help and through proper channels. Once we start speculating about people who might seem uncomfortable to us as spectators with no real information, I think it’s a dangerous path to take and its disrespectful to a person who well, we pretty much don’t know anything about except his back story and what the media tells us.

I know you said you were just projecting and I acknowledged that, I just think nowadays people tend to diagnose others too quickly through unreliable information and that makes it seem like mental health issues are something trivial we can ascertain through uninformed perceptions.

Whenever we all reach a consensus on his offense (haha) then we can actually move onto the difficult question, which is how good is this guy actually on defense.

IMO, he’s not elite, but the evidence clearly indicates he’s a plus defender. To which I’ll add, he’s also 21. It’s not like defense doesn’t get better also as you learn and develop physically.

the difference between you and me is that i don’t just stop as soon as i find something good to talk about frank…. i’m in the frank sucks camp because he sucks.

you must have been a master debater in high school. you’re right because you’re right. got it. sorry for even disputing that.

if his attempts are down that means he’s actually handling the ball less.. and hence less turnovers.. as a function of his overall ball handling ability these are fake gains also…. tov% captures this..

TOV% is the thing that is fool-able. Remember when Melo had the lowest TOV% in the world because he just took more shots? Shooting the ball a lot and increasing the denominator does not mean you turned the ball over less, it means you shot more shots. And the purpose of offense is not to make your own shot totals go up, it is increase the team’s overall efficiency. Frank is shooting better this year himself. The team shoots better with him on the floor (eFG 50.5 vs 48.4). The team turns the ball over less with him on the floor (TOV% 13.9 vs. TOV% 15.3). The team’s ORtg is better with him on floor. Caveats to on/off stats, sure, but unless you have evidence of the contrary, the team plays better with him on the floor.

why are we looking at this in a vacuum? his attempts in 2p territory have gone down over 25% to do it.. and these are the widest of open opportunities.. he wasn’t even guarded or contested on any of his makes last night.. what skill has he actually gained?

this is an interesting point. lemme process: I thought we were trying to generate open shots, but you are asking him to take more guarded and contested shots as evidence that he’s a better offensive player, and the fact that he’s not taking more guarded and contested shots is therefore evidence he hasn’t improved on offense. got it.

btw he is not handling the ball less – see tracking data.

More troubling for me is his lack of improvement in rebounding, and his low assist% on low usage.

i think maybe you’re confusing ast% with assist ratio — ast% is the % of teammates’ field goals he assists on, and should not be affected by his usage.

Assist “ratio” = the percentage of a player’s possessions that ends in an assist. Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]

Frank’s assist% is pretty much in line with other PGs who are not the primary initiators on their team – ie. George Hill, Brogdon when he was in MIL, and is actually better than guys like Beverley, Avery Bradley, etc.

His assist ratio on the other hand is where you’d expect it to be — #13 in the league, in line with the other pass first guards.

A certain 221 cm. tornado of controversy recently received a platelet-rich plasma injection in his now balky right knee. That sounds … not good.

this has the makings of a solid pivot to a 300-post pizza/bagel thread

We haven’t touched on whisky in a while. And last time was in the middle of the summer, which is distinctly not Scotch season.

I just discovered The GlenDronach 18. Pretty epic:

https://www.glendronachdistillery.com/en-us/our-whisky/allardice-aged-18-years/

A certain 221 cm. tornado of controversy recently received a platelet-rich plasma injection in his now balky right knee. That sounds … not good.

Doesn’t matter. Dallas can flip him for 4 firsts. He’s a top 10 asset, don’t forget it.

I would love to get a running list of Opponent-Drink Pairings from KBlogger

He’s a top 10 asset, don’t forget it.

Top 17, but probably not so much anymore.

Also, I think it is a no-brainer that a guy who is improving, is 21, and seems to be trending up, should play more than a guy who has 5 seasons of track record and who has not improved basically at all. I like Payton just fine but he’s a backup PG. We non-djphan people don’t really know completely who Frank is yet.

wait are you arguing that frank is not only improving… but that he’s good? i’m right because he unequivocally sucks.. not because i am inherently so… do you want to make the argument that he’s good?

Unless they changed the definition of “sucks” since I went to school this can’t be a serious assertion.

The only model that says he sucks is PER and that model sucks. lol

On all the other models, it’s a debate about how “below average” he is depending on how BAD you think those models are at measuring his individual contribution to the defense.

Some models use a team level adjustment as part of the individual defensive calculation (which in NY’s case sucks). He’s clearly better than average within the team. Only a crazy person would argue otherwise.

He’s also doing things like getting deflections, causing issues with passing lanes due to his length, switching more effectively than average, playing above average man defense against most matchups, and sometimes helping delay the possession until late in the clock with pressure on the ball handler.

All the evidence suggests he’s a plus defender whose ratings are to some degree getting dragged by team level adjustments and/or incomplete models.

So subjectively tweak whatever those models say or look at adjusted plus/minus, on/off, and lineup based data to try to understand his value in a way that doesn’t suffer from as big a deficiency of measuring players that are more defense oriented (or very poor on that end).

I say he’s a small net negative player.

That’s doesn’t mean I’m exactly right, but no way he “sucks”.

@128

Once Upon a Time in the West is arguably the greatest Western ever made. Ennio Moricone should’ve won an Oscar for his theme music. Word was that Leone played his compositions during the filming the movie because he wanted the actors to synchronize their scenes with the music. I still get chills listening To The Man With the Harmonica. It’s basically Death’s rattle.

I would pair Friday’s matchup vs New Orleans with a wine made from sour grapes.

Wouldn’t sour grapes be the logical choice for any Knicks game?

I always thought Pacers was a reference to car racing as in the Indy 500.

watching once upon a time in the west right now…just watching bits and pieces of it at a time to pass a little bit of time during the days…

I’ve been doing the same. I was sick earlier in the week and found it incredibly frustrating because I could tell how good the movie was but couldn’t entirely focus on it.

I would watch a Sergio Leone movie filming nothing but a person’s face for 3 hours, with music of course provided by Ennio Morricone. Then again I watch the Knicks every other night, so it’s a low bar.

@131
Once Upon a Time in the West is my all-time favorite western. Way back in the 80’s I had a chance to see it at an indoor theater in all its glory.

I did see Mudiay throw a ball into the stands yesterday while getting guarded by Frank. There is some of that.

I don’t know, I can believe Frank will be rosterable but I can’t believe he will ever be worth 4 and 48 when the time comes for his second contract.

As for the drinks, we probably need a sommelier or a bartender who really likes the Knicks to help.

I do think a little ouzo over ice would work for Giannis and the Bucks. That’s how the Greeks drink it, although it works better when it’s hot out. The taste is surprisingly sweet in your mouth, kind of like when you are getting beaten by 20 by the Bucks but it’s ok because he is going to be a Knick in two years.

I’m notsure why you suggest four years and $48M for Frank. If you look at this chart, you can see that point guard salaries are all over the map, but point guards who aren’t starters typically get less than $10M a year. A good comparison might be Elfrid Payton, who was signed to a two year $16M contract. Franks is not as good overall as Payton this season, but I can imagine him getting better and being close to him at the end of the season. I don’t see why the Knicks would or should spend more than that $8M a year on Frank’s next contract. If they give a longer contract, they probably could sign him for less per year.

KnicksFan – What’s the best case scenario for his second contract? We going to sign him for 4 years at 5 million per and then have him breakout?

Frank definitely sucks right now by almost every measure of NBA suckitude.

-He has no trade value at all
-He is grossly overpaid for his production
-He is unlikely to improve to the point of being worth his contract for the duration of team control
-He is unlikely to be worth matching as a RFA
-He is unlikely to be worth extending

Any evaluation that says that he doesn’t suck is based on rosy predictions about his development. But if he topped off at this level, he’d AT BEST be a minimum-salaried end-of-bench guy for the rest of his career. Which means that there is nearly always someone available at a minimum salary or on a 2-way contract that can duplicate his current production (WS48 below .050, BPM below -2.0, VORP at 0.0) And that means that he currently sucks. He doesn’t suck as badly as he did the last 2 years (i.e. worst in NBA bad) and has definitely improved to “rotation player on a bad team” level, so there’s that.

Z-man those statements can’t all be true. If there is no trade value at all why would anyone make him a large offer when he’s a restricted free agent? On the other hand, if someone makes a big offer, then he’s clearly worth something. Note that I am talking open market value. That may not be the same as what you consider his actual
Value.

If Frank continues to play at this level for the rest of the season (something I have my doubts about, but whatever) he could easily produce enough to be worth 6 million dollars if he improves a bit next season. i don’t know what it is about frank that makes both his haters and the francophiles so prone to overly dramatic estimations of his value but you don’t have to be particularly effective to be worth 6 million bucks.

the big question on frank though is what his next contract (which didn’t even seem like much of a possibility six months ago) will look like…

9 million a year maybe…

see in this world there’s two kinds of people, my friend. those with loaded guns and those who dig.

nice argument for the good, bad and ugly z-man 🙂

Ouzo tips:

-Ouzo needs water. Till it becomes milky coloured. Less water makes it more heavy and more water makes it lighter in taste/alcohol.

-Icecubes may cause headache and hangover. Better use cold water instead of icecubes.

-Ouzo demands “mezethes” (appetizers) salty/spicy/fried/grilled stuff varying from meat to fish to anything that comes to mind and you feel appropriate to eat while drinking it.

-Modern/Alternate and very tasty way of drinking it is with lemon or orange juice instead of water.

salty/spicy/fried/grilled stuff varying from meat to fish

i’m thinking of getting that statement tattooed on my body inside a big heart…

If you get Frank for a couple of million a year, which I hope is a possibility, that is a bargain. Jordan Clarkson makes 12.5m and is not a great point guard. He does shoot better but he also six years older.

ouzo and everything else with an anise flavor is disgusting

The words you say
Never seem to live up to the ones inside your head
The lives we make
Never seem to ever get us anywhere but dead
The day I tried to live
I wallowed in the blood and mud with all the other pigs

i’ve noticed the longer i stay at work…the music i enjoy seems to become increasingly more morose…it’s good to reach out and try to live though…i wish i could be there for the get together on the 14th…

i first ran in to ouzo over in germany at about the same time i discovered gyros (maybe greatest food ever – i just love watching it go around and around on the spit with all those juices/grease oozing out)…i actually thought ouzo had opium or something in it…i was young and had no idea…

i do remember the first time i went out to eat (some horrible cracker like pizza stuff – young new york geo: this shit ain’t real pizza) and ordered a few beers in germany, seemingly no big thing at the moment, but, holy shit was that beer strong over there…i stumbled home that evening…

took me a while longer to discover there was such a thing as a double bock beer – pretty much a beer milkshake, without the milk…my waistline went on a downward spiral for a while after that…

at this point i’m pretty much tied to tequila and vodka…although, i don’t think i’ve kept a bottle of alcohol in the house for years…beer and wine kind of guy normally…

#notsosophisticatedgeo

@165

DRed cannot be GM of the KB drinking club

this thread is bad for my Dry January

I had some interesting as a in whiskys over new years. Mikaki, and a Tawanese one I forget the name of. The latter was really interesting, almost a Pennsylvania bourbon thing going on, though no corn so probably from the barrel. The Mikaki was sort of scotchish, aged in a Japanese cedar barrel.

That sort of taste is always interesting, though I’m happier with a nice Death in the Afternoon these days.

If we re serious about landing Giannis we must become ouzo & gyros specialists.
Jimmy should start syrtaki lessons with Stevie and Scotty.

#aniselife

Pervert’s choice
Anise flavored booze during summer tastes like… freedom & kinky sex

The Good…is also a great western. Once Upon edges it out just a bit for me for various reasons, inc. the uber powerful reveal right before the final gunfight. Oh, and I think there might be a fairly attractive actress in that film, also.

Swarthy gunfighter: “Looks like we’re shy one horse.”
Harmonica shakes his head slightly. “You brought two too many.”
Gunfire erupts.

Speaking of Gallo, when I was in Italy I drank a variety of fine Grappa drams pretty much every day…love that stuff!

Basketball-Liquor-Westerns…we’re runnin the triangle here at KB

dang z-man but you old…are you over there sweating dust 🙂

Claudia is ridiculously attractive

The Wild Bunch is my favorite Western. I saw it in 70mm at the Castro Theater in SF back in the 90’s and it was one of my favorite cinema experiences ever.

I watched Unforgiven again recently. I’d kind of forgotten how good it is.

Yeah, geo, I recall seeing Claudia Cardinale in Once Upon… back in my early to mid teen years. I was, uh, very impressed.

for years I thought she was sophia loren…I didn’t really know who sophia loren was though, just that she was beautiful and from europe…

I think that was the first film I noticed jason robards in…

oh yeah, howdy missus jowles…I hope all is well in the world for you…spoil the heck out of one another…you each deserve it…

Frank Ntilikina sucks.

cp3 nutmegging that big kid on houston then intentionally fouling a rocket so they could take him out of the game because it was over is so tremendously disrespectful. What a legend.

nice…

well done, forgot to add it…yep no country for old men most definitely qualifies as a western, and, is no doubt a great film, loved woody harrelson’s performance…tommy lee jones does one of the best movie narrations of all time…

Speaking of Logan, Shane is excellent too.

It’s one of my dad’s fave movies and made a huge impact on me when I was a kid.

The Westerns genre is regarded as the red-headed stepchild in the movie industry. Nonetheless I’ve always been very attracted to them even to this day. Daniel Boone starring Fess Parker was my favorite TV show as a kid. I wore a coonskin cap about the house. My parents once told me to choose a restaurant for my birthday and I selected one where the booths were stagecoaches. In my top 5 favorite western movies would be a couple which are a bit different from the average western and maybe not quite so well-known: Hombre starring Paul Newman and The Fastest Gun Alive starring Glen Ford. Great stories and tension with minimal gun play but very much westerns.

I didn’t think I liked westerns, since most of the ones I enjoyed are not straight westerns – anti-Westerns like Unforgiven, buddy films like Magnificent 7. Now maybe I think I just don’t care for John Ford – a friend swore how The Searchers is The Best Western, and it leaves me cold.

Does Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid qualify as a western? If yes, that goes to the top-10 on my list.

I don’t think No Country for Old Men qualifies because it’s too modern. If the majority of transportation isn’t horseback, it’s out.

Scotch: Give me that peat + smoke. Talisker, Laphroaig, Ardbeg are usually in the rotation. Lagavulin 16 when I’m feeling fancier. If you don’t mind blended Compass Box makes Peat Monster, which is really good.

Westerns: Surprised no one mentioned Deadwood. Some of the best written dialogue in any tv/film. Brutal and beautiful. The movie from last year could’ve been better though. McShane is an all-timer.

Surprised no one mentioned Deadwood

We’ve spent weeks discussing Deadwood here. It’s presumed that everyone here either loved it or thinks Porzingis is a top 15 player in the NBA.

ouzo and everything else with an anise flavor is disgusting

That was what I thought. Then I got a Greek mother-in-law. It’s really good over ice on a hot day. Completely changes the flavor. And as Knew Your Nicks said you have to drink it while eating.

215 – +1

I didn’t think I liked westerns, since most of the ones I enjoyed are not straight westerns – anti-Westerns like Unforgiven, buddy films like Magnificent 7. Now maybe I think I just don’t care for John Ford – a friend swore how The Searchers is The Best Western, and it leaves me cold.

Yeah the John Ford movies seem really dated. The Searchers and Man Who Shot Liberty Valance I mentioned above are considered among the best. But for my money Sergio Leone, any Sergio Leone, blows it out of the water.

Also shout out to Akira Kurosawa for basically directing A Fistful of Dollars which is literally just Yojimbo if you CGI’d guns over the samurai swords.

Daniel Boone starring Fess Parker was my favorite TV show as a kid. I wore a coonskin cap about the house. My parents once told me to choose a restaurant for my birthday and I selected one where the booths were stagecoaches. 

that’s funny…I can’t remember when I started really liking westerns, I think it may have been later in my teens though…

No Country is a neo-noir Western IMO

curious as to what you thought of the assasination of jesse james by the coward robert ford jowles…

it received a lot of mixed reviews when it came out…definitely not everyone’s cup of tea…even for a western it’s pretty slow paced…

a lot of excellent performances…sam rockwell though was just magnificent in it…

almost finished now re-watching once upon a time in the west – a comment someone made above really sticks out to me now: it is hard to take your eyes off the screen during the entire film…I don’t think I ever really appreciated that fact before…the whole time leone is able to keep your eyes (and ears) riveted to the movie…

the other thing that stuck out to me – holy cow can the sun can do a bunch of damage to your skin…not that there’s anything wrong with the rough and weathered look, but, maybe being pale and pasty ain’t such a bad thing…

I lack the charm to diss Laphroaig lovers as gracefully as DRed can put down Ouza drinkers, so I’ll try to politely state that I think anyone who likes Laphroaig is on the Frankophile side of the argument, i.e. you love it in spite of overwhelming evidence that it’s terrible.)

Lol, I’d probably agree. It tastes like iodine mixed with liquid smoke. Feels like you’re drinking some old-timey snake oil elixir. And I love it.

You can’t really go wrong with Kurosawa in my opinion, but I really recommend Throne of Blood, Rashomon and specially Ran, which is not really a samurai focused movie but it might be one of the most beautiful movies ever.

I know literally zero samurai films outside of Akira Kurosawa, but he makes so many good ones I’m not sure you need any others. I’d argue Rashomon, Throne of Blood, and Ran are a little slower and more politics heavy and thought provoking. All excellent films, but Yojimbo and Seven Samurai are more focused on the samurai themselves and move a bit quicker.

Thank you for sorting out my weekend.

You, too, EB.

@230,

In all fairness I last saw many of Kurosawa’s movies when I was a teenager so the quicker pace and more light-hearted stories appealed to me more. Also, even if you haven’t seen Yojimbo or Seven Samurai you’ve probably seen them. Just based on the name you can figure out which western movie Seven Samurai became. Both have been remade a number of times, something less true of your 3 Kurosawa films (except the one based on a Shakespeare play, but his version is iconic). Even the Mandalorian basically had a Seven Samurai episode.

Macri is the guy who is running Knicks Film School now.
Seems he is trending up – started off as one of the Knicks Wall guys, then KFS (and unclear why the original guy Jeffrey Bellone seems to be on the outs of KFS), now is writing for SI also and getting media credentials for games. Hard to know if he has real sources but he might. He does seem tight with Clarence Gaines who is actually still listed as part of the Knicks front office interestingly enough.

I wish we had a little more info on Marcus Morris’s injury — this is the 2nd time he’s missed time with a neck issue. With our luck the FO will finally decide to trade him, get a great deal, and then he’ll fail the physical.

Celtics fans seem to be giving up on Hayward en masse which is pretty funny to watch

I think one component of a good western is the use of the landscape/environment as an additional character…

Well-said and so true Geo. Same is true for film noir.

I’m happy to see Ntillakilla (who I assume is young, but I may be wrong) is such an avid western fan. I’ve always feared that genre will fade away as we become more culturally distant from frontier history. I don’t find a lot of Milennials with an affinity for (or even an awareness of) spaghetti westerns.

My father is a great fan of the genre. Showed me the final showdown between Harmonica and Frank when I was a kid. Henry Fonda’s grinning visage as who know who is hanging from a tree in the desert haunted me ever since.

I don’t think No Country for Old Men qualifies because it’s too modern. If the majority of transportation isn’t horseback, it’s out.

Now we’re getting into great movie classification debate territory, like whether or not Die Hard or Lethal Weapon qualify as “Christmas Movies” (which, IMO, they certainly do). In my opinion, the Western is not defined by a set period beyond the creation of a Western Frontier, and as a borderland between civilization and wilderness the Frontier is something which has been with us since the era of Manifest Destiny. I feel the one writer who really gets this is Cormac McCarthy. You see it in all of his works from Blood Meridian to No Country For Old Men to even The Road.

This decade, we’ve seen some very good contemporary Westerns written by Taylor Sheridan in the form of Sicario, Hell or High Water, and Wind River.

Genres are fluid in postmodern art but I welcome categorical hot takes

And yeah, it’s pretty weird that a guy with the patience for 3+ hour chess matches (imagine spending a half hour or more calculating one move) and who has stared at the last stubborn quadrant of a Saturday xword for an hour can’t seem to be drawn in by a moving picture held in such high esteem. You know what? Give me one Western to watch and I’ll do it just for you, geo.

I love Zatoichi. Set in the Late Edo period in Japan, where the gangsters rule each town.Every thing the Kung Fu television series should have been.

I love Zatoichi. Set in the Late Edo period in Japan, where the gangsters rule each town.Every thing the Kung Fu television series should have been.

If you want to watch an anti-Samurai film which was very ahead of its time watch a 1962 film titled Seppuku set during the early Edo.

My wife and I both had The Lives of Others as our favorite movie on our first date. Too many great movies out there though to pick one.

How about an Mideastern soap opera. Resurrection Erdugrul, poor band of turkic shepherd’s caught between the Christians and Mongols. 1320. Horses, bows and arrows and sword fighting.

My wife and I both had The Lives of Others as our favorite movie on our first date. Too many great movies out there though to pick one.

I have The Lives of Others as #2 in my best foreign films of the 2000s, surpassed only by The Secret In Their Eyes. That’s such a great movie and what a brilliant stroke of luck to take a date on for the first time. You both must have been so uplifted having seen it. It’s so beautiful and faithful in humanity’s innate decency even in the face of an alienated and inauthentic existence. I am always in a better mood after watching it. The ending is so brilliantly understated.

eally wish Kubrick had tried making a western. A Barry Lyndon-style journey of a guy making his way thru the west before, during, and after the Civil War.

Brilliant idea. Would’ve been amazing to see how he’d have handled the genre. Word was that he was planning to make a movie about Napoleon Bonaparte when he died.

Celtics fans seem to be giving up on Hayward en masse which is pretty funny to watch

Interesting that they’re making Hayward their scapegoat when golden boy Jayson Tatum puts up back to back stinkers and is still rocking a pretty awful .526 TS%. (Hayward .597)

We were on our first date and favorite movies came up and TLOO was our mutual choice. Which is surprising because it was relatively obscure despite having won the Oscar. I saw it at a film festival at a midnight showing, my fourth movie of the day, and was completely blown away. Still remember the feeling walking out of the theater.

Will check out The Secret in their Eyes.

@259

Your relationship was fated for great things having begun while sharing such a wonderful piece of art together. It’s the type of movie you can go talk about for hours over coffee. The Secret in Their Eyes is another one you should watch with your wife. It’s another great date movie men and women will equally enjoy. But please don’t make the mistake of seeing the shitty 2015 American remake with Julia Roberts and Nicole Kidman. The original is about as perfect a movie as I’ve ever seen but the remake comes across like a 1980s romantic thriller.

Surprised no one has brought up Unforgiven. I never saw it but everyone said it’s fantastic. No?

The lives of others has one of the best last lines of any movie I’ve seen.

Seeing it a second time, I was wondering, when was the last time an American film just let the characters be for a few minutes?

I recommend a 2013 movie called Blue Ruin. I am a very big fan of the director’s work.

Blade Runner 2049

That film is a consensus top science fiction films of the decade. I have it only behind Snowpiecer and Arrival.

Ahh, westerns…I’m old enough to remember looking forward to weekly episodes of The Guns of Will Sonnett

Z-Man

Holy Crap!

When I was young, I used to watch that show with my father (who has since passed). It was one of those shows that created a better relationship between us. We loved it together.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rerun on TV.

When I bring it up among my friends (similar age) not a single one of them has ever heard of it.

I’m so happy I’m not the last living human being that loved that show.

Frank says he’s going to be fastest improving PG in the NBA “No brag, just fact”. 🙂

Z-Man,

Here’s Frank talking about the other PG’s in the league compared to himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j1qkorFszY

If were talking science-fiction from the last decade, I’d make an argument for some genre straddling borderline scifi movies from the last decade.

Melancholia is my favorite movie from the last decade. I don’t consider it SciFi at all, but I’ve talked to some people and read some reviews that thought it was. The movie is really about the two main characters dealing with depression. I love Lars von Trier’s visual style in it. There happens to be a meteor hurtling towards Earth as a background piece that’s pretty irrelevant for the focus of the movie, it could have been anything. To whatever extent that’s scifi I have it above any others.

Mad Max: Fury Road has elements of Sci Fi in it too and also fits in the category of popular movies that I hold in high regard. Also crosses over a bit into our western discussion and I think based its sweeping visuals of the landscape on western flicks. As someone up-thread mentions how westerns use the environment as a character itself, definitely done in this film.

Finally, Spiderman Into the Spiderverse. Obviously a comic book movie but incorporates heavy use of scifi elements. The animation is revelatory.

Also Snowpiercer and 2049 were definitely excellent. Cannot believe I still haven’t seen Arrival.

Fun Western: Silverado (Brian Dennehy at his peak, Kevin Kline, Scott Glenn, Danny Glover and Kevin Costner and a spunky Linda Hunt) – crackles in every way possible.

Other favorites:
3:10 to Yuma
Pale Rider (the showdown scene with the trenchcoated killers is great Eastwood)
The Stalking Moon (Gregory Peck) – hasn’t aged well, but was a family favorite
Red River – imagine 48 Hours as a 1940’s western without Eddie Murphy

Z-Man,

Here’s Frank talking about the other PG’s in the league compared to himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j1qkorFszY

Funny! Did you also watch Branded with dad?

Kurosawa is easily on my Top 7 directors of all time next to:
Fellini
Kubrick
Bergman
Bunuel
Coppola
Hitchcock
Ran and Red Beard are my faves from him.

Funny! Did you also watch Branded with dad?

Not that I can recall. I was born in 1959. Most likely I did because he was huge western fan and that’s what we mostly watched together when I was a boy. It was either westerns or Eastside Kids/Bowery Boys stuff. I love those shows and movies too. I practically cry when I watch “Angels with Dirty Faces”. It’s partly because I love the movie so much, but also because the memories are so strong I can almost touch them.

Spring Breakers

Harmony elevated trash to a high art form in that film. God, Franco was so skeevy in that role.

Scarface is awesome in a marginally camp/ironic sort of way.

I like Scarface and think it gets a bad rep because of its excesses when the film’s excessiveness is the entire point DePalma is trying to make about the hollowness of the American Dream. The problem was that too many wannabe gangsters from the barrio and hood did not see Tony Montana as a tragic figure but as a anti-hero to emulate so all of that ended up getting lost among its many fans. Though, in my opinion, Carlito’s Way is the superior collaboration between De Palma and Pacino.

Fun Western: Silverado (Brian Dennehy at his peak, Kevin Kline, Scott Glenn, Danny Glover and Kevin Costner and a spunky Linda Hunt) – crackles in every way possible.

I was going to include it on my personal faves list for Westerns. That film is an outlier of sorts for the time. It was an unapologetically fun Western with a terrific ensemble the kind you saw in the 1950s before the genre got very grim and gritty made in the 1980s when audiences wanted to have a good time again.

3:10 to Yuma

Another personal fave that ranks as one of the best post-Unforgiven Westerns.

Ran and Red Beard are my faves from him.

Agree about Ran. I think its among his most underrated because I also have it as my #2 behind Ikiru – a movie which EVERYONE should at least see once.

‘Dead man’ is a Western winner!

the memories are so strong I can almost touch them.

what a beautiful way to relay that feeling…

my lovely missus wanted to go to the Opera for her birthday

we have an opera house down in anahiem…on my list of stuff i’d like to do…my aunt suggested to forgo the full opera experience and just go to check out a performance of “arias”…

my first experience with opera was listening to a performance at a small amphitheater location inside a quiet neighborhood…they host musical events at the location throughout the summer…i’ve gone a bunch of times before…

when the singer started really letting her voice out (i had no idea what someone sounded like live singing opera – i was blown away by the sheer force of their voice) a dog a few blocks away started barking and howling…that had never occurred before…it was kind of surreal at the moment…

We’re seeing La Traviata at the Met, first (and probably last?!) opera for me.

Give it a chance. The Met’s amazing, but the best opera experiences for my money is in small spaces. Going to see Blood Moon in a couple of weeks. It’s a new piece, a conversation between a man and the ghost of his dead aunt, who he abandoned to die 40 years before. I’m extremely excited. Probably tells you something about me..

Resnais
‘Last Year at Marienbad’ is a cinematic experience.
Extremely artsy but totally mesmerising.

Resnais is one of the truly greats. Hiroshima Mon Amour is beautiful. For a more approachable and recent one in his catalog, check out Wild Grass.

French New Wave contains by far my favorite directors and movies. Truffaut (Jules & Jim), Godard (Breathless), Varda (Cleo from 5 to 7), Rohmer (Claire’s Knee, but all of the “Moral Tales” are great) and Melville (Army of Shadows), Malle (Elevator to the Gallows) are all in the pantheon.

Glad that i found other Resnais enthusiasts !
I thought that i was the only cuckoo out there blown out by Marienbad!

French New Wave is definitely great and deserves deep searching.

I prefer Seppeku though, it has an almost Resnais feel to the movement and space.

You have a great eye. Seppuku is a story which sneaks up on you that way. That final battle in the palace courtyard was as genius for it didn’t show as for it did show.

Ikiru is probably the best film ever made.

I have it up there. But even more importantly, I do think Ikiru the most important movie anyone can see.