ESPN.com: Frank Ntilikina Single-Handedly Snaps Team USA’s 58-Game Winning Streak

And yes, I expect some teams will be interested in trading for Ntilikina.

The Celtics heavy team US was so easy to root against.

Frank Twitter is exploding. I can’t stop laughing.

Fredo??
@goknickstape
FRANK NTILIKINA JUST LED FRANCE TO A WIN AGAINST TEAM USA

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

FRANK NTILIKINA JUST LED FRANCE TO A WIN AGAINST TEAM USA

Knicks Addict Retweeted
Fredo??
@goknickstape
The same Frank Ntilikina Celtics fans slander is the same dude who just put Kemba Walker in prison

Simon Stéphan
@Simon_Stephan_
Frank Ntilikina, 21 ans, fait la leçon aux Américains en quart de finale de Coupe du monde

Translated from French by
21-year-old Frank Ntilikina teaches Americans in World Cup quarterfinals

French Knicks Pod Retweeted
Parejista
@Parejista__
Welcome to Frank Ntilikina tournament
@usabasketball

Frank was just given a spot in the democrat debate because he’s polling higher than Biden and Warren! lmao

Kevin O’Connor
@KevinOConnorNBA
Anyone who watched Frank Ntilikina as a prospect knew he’d stink on offense as a young NBA player. But passing vision and feel gave hope while defense was his foundation. In FIBA, we’ve seen his typical lockdown defense, plus a tighter handle and smoother jumper. He just turned 21.

Reposted from previous thread:

Just to bring it in balance, Frank is still very raw on offense. He’s still going to have a lot of games where he contributes very little on offense or goes 1 for 6 etc… That goes double on a “low IQ”, “isolation heavy”, “create your own shot” type of offense like the Knicks will probably run where he’ll get fewer easy looks. However, he’s clearly making progress and can contribute on a good NBA team right now if used properly in a smart offense. They played him down the stretch of this critical game and he was very good on both sides.

In the end, it’s going to take at least 2-3 more years for him to reach whatever his potential is.

I’m not sure the Knicks are smart enough to see his potential value or have that kind of patience to wait for it.

I’m pretty sure Frank is smart enough to know to get out of town and go to a good organization if they aren’t developing him or using him correctly.

The idea of throwing in the towel on Frank now was always extremement ridicule. Never made an iota of sense.

Big day for Strat.

Question: What should the Knicks offer Frank for his next contract?

If the biggest Ntilikina fan on this site thinks that Frank will still be a bad offensive player next season and won’t reach his potential for another 3 years, how much is he worth until he gets ‘there’?

$3-4million a year for 2-3 years? I have no idea how you would value something that’s still so nebulous.

Frank had a good game, would still like to see a few more rebounds and assists.

I agree playing him next to RJ is ideal for him.

Tommy Beer
@TommyBeer
It’s seems like Frank has been a under a spotlight in NY forever, but it’s important to remember the kid just celebrated 21st birthday last month.

He’s younger than most of last year’s lottery picks, including Deandre Ayton, Miles Bridges, and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, etc.

I’ve also got to think taking Mitch over a bunch of the USA dregs would have helped them a lot.

I really wouldn’t be surprised if Frank Ntilikina started at the two slot for us on Day 1. For all of his warts on offense, he’s a tone setter defensively and I think that will show itself to be true in training camp.

I didn’t get to see any of the game but I’m tickled by the notion of Frank Ntilikina shutting down and embarrassing overrated Celtic Kemba Walker.

OHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!

Weren’t we all basically like, “imagine Team USA losing to a team led by Ntilikina at the one”?

I know we’re, for the most part, anxious to see when not if Frank gets moved. But if he plays anything like he has in this tournament, it would behoove the team to keep him. Imagine our defense spearheaded by Ntilikina, Morris, and MitchRob

If he and DSJ can shoot a respectable 34% from 3, they should absolutely start in the backcourt. That is gonna create problems with Knox. Barrett is gonna play on the wings 11 times out of 10 over Knox. Unless of course, Knox can manage the 4…

First time I’ve ever been happy about a Team USA loss. Go Frank. I really hope the Knicks become the type of team that values and develops this type of player.

Tweet of the year…..

Gerald Bourguet @GeraldBourguet
about 1 hour ago
Frank Ntilikina outscored Team USA 7-5 by himself over the final 7 minutes. Yeah, I’m guessing the big names will be back for the Olympics.

reply retweet like

If you had something like Payton, Frank, RJ, Randle and Mitch the Knicks would have 4 guys who can pass on the floor at the same time for the first time in a long time. That lineup would also rebound really well. Frank’s inept offense would still be a big problem.

Outside shooting in general seems like it’d be an issue.

So would you trade Frank for a 2nd round pick? A week ago I would have said categorically yes, but now I’m kind of intrigued to see if he somehow grew a set of balls over in China.

Worst case, he sucks again this year and we get nothing for him. I’ll take that chance.

@BobNeptune (from last thread)

I just don’t understand why some here are more invested in the pristine status of their “opinions” than the success of the team they say they are rooting for….Kemba Walker had a shitty game, but I’m sure he had nothing to do with that either….This was probably the biggest game he ever played in his life and sacked up and played very well at crunch time. The guy is 21 fucking years old. Can someone let this guy marinate a little bit please.

Let’s dial it down a bit. He played OK, not great. Saying it was the “biggest game he ever played” might be true to some extent, but it wasn’t in the NBA. It was big because France beat the US – no other reason. Kemba wasn’t great but Frank couldn’t stay in front of him, but who can? He was good defensively, not all-world. Gobert had more of an impact defensively than Frank. I agree about giving up on a kid. I’m in his camp but watching him and Mitchel on the floor at the same time was painful. Donovan is in a different class. Frank’s ceiling is probably lower than Mitchel’s floor.

But why am I surprised…. 45% of this country is on their knees praying for a recession so the can get a certain someone out of the Oval Office.

As for rooting for a recession, that would be idiotic. I admit to hating the SOB, but I like my 401K and my stocks to do well. He’s cost us all a lot of money because of his stupid ego. He hit NY/NJ middle class hard with the new tax laws (I personally got hit with a high 4-digit tax increase). He hurt my stocks several times with trade war tweets and it hurt worse because it was on expiring stock options that were winning big until he tweeted. I wish he would shut up and let the big boys run our economy until we oust his fat ass.

Brian Windhorst:
“Of course people are going say it was a big upset because of who we are and what this team has done in the past over the years,” said Kemba Walker, an All-Star who was largely outplayed by Frank Ntilikina.

Let the bidding war begin!

GoNYgo, Trump’s tweets can have such sn effect on the market that JP Morgan has created a Volfefe Index, which tracks the impact of Presidential tweets on interest rates.

I didn’t watch FIBA Frank play, so for those of you who did, is he playing the one? I’ve long agreed with those here that he needs to move to the wing to have a chance in the NBA. Sure, his D is good, but will he ever shoot well enough?

However, are his PG skills looking better, or is this just a case of a guy having a solid game? Is he driving more, handling the ball better, etc.

Frank plays the one.
His D looks solid but need to say that he’s not playing only man to man but also zoneD which is not permitted in the nba.
His handling is solid too and his shooting stroke looks great.
I wouldn’t say he’s ready to kick ass in the nba yet but he definitely looks improved.
His drives look smooth, have rhythm and they’re very effective but they’re not many.
His game yells: Tony Allen.

Well, I mean. Frank still sucks, but reputation is huge in this League. If by any chance France can advance to the final game and he has a goodish game there his value would be the highest since hitting that three pointer in the fourth quarter vs. Indiana in November 2017.

Judging by the box scores Frank is considered shit by numberjunkies.
Watching the games tell a slightly different story.

Now why a guy who sucks in almost everything and his numbers yell ‘trash’ plays starter minutes as the Pg of a very talented & ambitious national team is one of the big unresolved mysteries of bball….

@58

It actually is a “mystery” with a very easy answer. Thomas Heurtel, the French starting PG, who plays for Barcelona, suffered a big injury in training camp, leaving only Frank and Andrew Albicy as PGs on the roster. Albicy is very undersized and quite frankly also not very good, so Frank got the starting nod. DeColo, the other guard on the roster, is seen as a 2 guard by their coach and mostly backups Fournier and plays crunch time minutes with Fournier playing 3 and Batum at the 4 alongside Gobert.

Knew Your Knicks, this is a stats-based Knicks blog. It says it right in the title. See that thing up there at the top? Statistical analysis, humor, Knicks? We talk about stats here, this is kind of like the only place to do this on the internet. We don’t ONLY talk about stats, but it’s a core part of the discussion at the site.

Maybe I can help steer you to a more appropriate discussion board:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/

Talking about stat black holes is a part of talking about stats.

@60
Very easy indeed.
You forgot that coach Collet was Frank’s ex coach in Strasbourg.
Luck & PR !

@65
Let me give it one more try:
Frank played man to man D but also “ZoneD for over 3sec” in many parts of the games of fiba wc.

I’m not aware of these 2. Sorry…
I always considered myself as the love child of horny Pan and Lady Justice….

It would be nice if there was actual evidence that Frank was a defensive savant. Ten years ago, this article about Shane Battier in the New York Times explained how effective he was for team success despite his mediocre counting stats. The article mentions that he loved getting statistics about his opponents’ tendencies and shooting percentages on various plays / court locations before each game, and would use this information to maneuver his opponents into taking their least productive shots. Thus, he was a very productive player despite his unassuming box score output.

If Frank is something like Shane Battier, great, but I’ll need to see the evidence.

I seem to remember some zone called a box and one being played in the NBA finals.

Tough to make the ‘2nd round picks are worthless’ argument when the Knicks best player was picked in the 2nd round just last year.

The Knicks have a somewhat solid track record with 2nd rounders the past couple drafts. If anything, they should be trying to get more of them. Especially if acquiring them is as easy as ‘E’ claims.

Yeah, and there’s even plenty of other success 2nd rounders around, like Draymond, Manu, Jokic, Beverley, Isaiah Thomas, Dragic, Marc Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, etc… its obviously a crap shoot most of the times, but there’s definitely value, and even sometimes if you’re lucky superstar value, to be found in the 2nd round.

The Nba teams are Sooo good at Zone D that almost got fucked by the Turkish team and lost by 10 by the French team.
Zone to the bone !

All im saying is that Nba is clueless about zone d.
Nba allows “pseudo zone”.
Not even Popovich could handle it…

One argument proffered around here by the pro-Frank contingent was that even if he didn’t turn out to be a big minutes guy, he’d still be a great guy to have around come playoff time when you needed big stops in big games

This is ironic bc there have been literally 2,000,000 Frank arguments proffered around here and I don’t ever remember reading this one.

The allure of Frank is that he would appear to be a good switchable defender: quick enough to hang with speedy point guards but big enough and long enough to guard bigger wings. That IS a valuable commodity. I think his status as “savant” is overstated.

I think the allure of Frank is he can disrupt the most important play in the game at an elite rate, arguably better than anyone in the league. That’s a helluva weapon to have if you can deploy it.

I also don’t think it’s as easy to neutralize him as y’all make it seem. Switching isn’t mandatory. You can just tell Frank not to peel off the primary ball handler.

Or just have him guard an area, since most PnR are in the center of the court. If you can force a team into doing side PnR action instead of being able to initiate it at the top of the key, you’ve already won something major in the possession

One argument proffered around here by the pro-Frank contingent was that even if he didn’t turn out to be a big minutes guy, he’d still be a great guy to have around come playoff time when you needed big stops in big games and … well, we pretty much saw exactly that play out today.

finally people are starting to listen to me…for how many years have i been telling everyone that frank is the exact missing piece to our championship run…

looks like i’m finally vindicated and due my due…

hmmmm, now if we can only find 10 or 12 other championship level players, along with frank, to fill out our roster…

i think frank’s a plus defender but you have to be careful taking much if any information from synergy pnr defensive ppp numbers for all the obvious reasons. do you know who the best pnr guard with at least 100 possession defended was in 18-19? kyrie. other guards finishing “better” than frank included defensive stalwarts devin booker, goran dragic, tyreke evans, marco belinelli, jeff teague, terrance ross, james harden and seth curry.

the year before frank’s rookie year the four best 100 poss pnr synergy guards in the league were…jj redick, ben mclemore, jj barea and eric gordon.

it’s tempting to lend more credence to the reliability of evidence when it fits your prior but that doesn’t actually make the evidence itself any more reliable.

That was sobering.

I’m hoping (probably against hope) that Frank grew up a little in this FIBA tournament. He always had that “deer in the headlights” look when he was on offense for the Knicks, never sure what to do, never forcing his man to defend him, never drawing fouls.

Maybe now he’s gained a little confidence and will stop doing his usual “bring the ball up, pick up your dribble and pass laterally to a man 35 feet from the basket”

Like I said, hoping……

His FIBA stats support the proposition he has had a pretty pedestrian tournament, but the few French games I have seen the one obvious improvement is he is not picking up his dribble unnecessarily and does look slightly more aggressive (albeit at a glacial pace). That being said, he still is definitely not aggressive enough considering he has averaged 1.2 FT per game for the tournament. Against some of the Defences he has faced in the tournament, this stat really needed to be higher if there was going to be any indication he was a new Frank.

He is also ranked 76th in the tournament for assists per game (tied with Andrew Bogut). Given the opportunities feeding Gobert in the post, I think his assist rate should be a tick higher than the 2.7 he his averaging a game at the moment.

Enough about Frank. Lets do something fresh like hating Kobe….

https://twitter.com/onlxn/status/1171871317932441600

https://twitter.com/nicjbae/status/1171884995847303169

I am starting to understand people’s reservations about twitter. It is deliciously evil.

It also is making me feel like a real dumbass. There is a whole world of people out there who hate Kobe Bryant!

The English teacher in me just shakes my head in sadness whenever I read that certain draft picks are “worthlesss.” Please look the word up before using it. Every time a team makes or trades a pick, they are illustrating that it has value. Some team might use one to trade for Frank. And the Knicks can then use it to get an exclusive look at a player for a time. That has value, even if such player is not very likely to end up good. As someone already noted, the Knicks got Mitch with a 2nd rounder.

Recently on a Jets board I frequent, the Jets traded 7th round pick for G Alex Lewis. In the ensuing thread, one guy said he was okay with using the pick since they are worthless. Uh, the trade just proved him wrong. For the Jets, that pick was worth G Alex Lewis, who is now on the team.

If picks were worthless, I think we’d seem more teams Pass rather than actually try out players…
🙂

@94

Damn, I feel better for saying Kobe is a piece of shit now, what a ridiculous post.

here’s the argument for Frank-
he can legit guard 1 through 4 in the NBA. In fact, he guarded Kemba really well in the 4th quarter just as Kemba was trying to do his superhero thing, then basically stoned Harrison Barnes, an actual NBA 3/4 player, in the post during the same portion of the game. He’s given Kyrie fits when guarding him. Trae Young couldn’t even dribble the ball against him. The only 2 players that he looked like he couldn’t guard well at the point of attack were Westbrook and Wall, and, well, that pretty much applies to any PG in the league. So while the league has gone to switchable players, players who are actually an asset regardless of who they’re switched onto are still really valuable. Good luck to any team that tries to get a switch on Frank + Mitch.

Guarding the point of attack is the thing the Knicks haven’t had in literally forever. Correlated with this is the Knicks haven’t had a good defense in basically forever. I think DSJ is an ok defender, but I sure would feel better in a big spot if we had Frank + Mitch in the game.

The big questions with Frank are: 1) can he be a 35% 3 point shooter; and 2) who is he best playing with? Theoretically speaking, if Frank can shoot 35%, he’d be a great fit next to RJ, much like Mario Chalmers was a great fit next to LBJ/Wade. In fact, a bigger Mario Chalmers would be a really nice 90+% percentile outcome for him — an important contributor on a contending team.

@100

I co-sign on that entire post.

I’ll just add that he also gave Harden FITS!

A great basketball team does not need 5 scorers on the court. It needs 2-3 high level/elite scorers. The other players only have to command enough respect that you have to guard them. You want those other players to be elite at OTHER things to maximize the TEAM output otherwise you wind up creating diminishing returns on the scoring and lack other things.

Of course, you can argue we don’t have the scorers yet (especially with KP gone), but that’s a separate issue. Maybe Barrett will become one of those players in 2-3 years and maybe Randle will be able to extend his game on a high level also. That’s a worry for another day.

Guys like Frank and Robinson can be the perfect complimentary pieces on a team with enough scoring talent. They can have a HUGE IMPACT on the game even if they have a limited tool kit on offense by taking away the opposing team’s primary weapons and disrupting their offense.

If people want to argue that Frank’s offense still has a long way to go to be at the level it needs to get (consistent 3 pointer) , that’s a legitimate observation. To not understand his potential value and not see the progress he finally seems to be making when finally healthy is simply basketball ignorance.

And USA loses again to Serbia.

Boxscores contain a lot of useful information, but they don’t contain defense and other important skills. They also can’t measure the impact your role, teammates, and the system you play in have on your stats. Finally, they can’t measure how players fit together to maximize output.

If the opposing team has a player that averages 23 PPG, a 57% TS%, and 6 assists and you hold him to 18 points, 50% TS, and 4 assists you are pretty much in contention for MVP of the night even if your own boxscore says 8 points, 3 rebounds and 4 assists. The fact that you didn’t score much is almost meaningless on a properly constructed team. A properly constructed team will still get its shots and be efficient. However, your contribution on defense is having a huge impact on the final score of the other team because you are making their key player and the team overall less efficient by several points.

When a guy like Frank puts Kemba in prison, it’s having a monstrous impact that far outweighs whether he scores 8 points per 36 or 15 points per 36. He just has to keep the 8 efficient enough to earn the respect of the opposing defense. That’s what he’s doing in FIBA.

It’s not abut the boxscore. It’s about skills and fitting them together properly.

Frank is a long term project. He always was, despite how high he was drafted. Most college basketball players are like AA prospects in baseball. Most lottery picks are AAA level. Frank was a single A player when we took him. Single A players need patience and need to be developed. They will also look terrible if you throw them in the majors.

This FIBA tournament doesn’t prove Frank belongs in the NBA, but it does demonstrate that handling Frank like he needs to be handled can lead to better performance. If we don’t want to treat him with kid gloves and build up his confidence, then just get rid of him off the heels of this tournament. If he comes back and you’re going to bench him every time he’s hesitant, he’ll go right back to being the bum he’s been.

Finally, they can’t measure how players fit together to maximize output.

Except, you know, that whole “final score” thing.

well, that solves it — Frank played kinda good in a FIBA game, definitely an NBA player now

He played better than kinda good against a FIBA team that was comprised of well above average NBA pros…. Just tell the truth even if it doesn’t fit you particularly staked out narrative.

None of this obviates anything other than it is possible for a BB player to improve greatly under competent management form his 20 to 21 year old season.

Not to worry… it will take Fiz and Co. about 42 seconds to crush his newfound comfort by yo-yo ing him all over the place.

Frank is also a -1 against teams not named Jordan and the Dominican Republic.

And the game turned the moment he was put in down the stretch specifically because he locked down one of the best offensive players in the NBA on defense and scored key baskets under pressure.

I want Frank to succeed as much as the next guy but there’s a strong “Frank cannot fail, he can only be failed” tone to a lot of the comments here. I sincerely hope that Fiz & Co. continue to treat this team as being primarily in rebuilding mode and emphasize giving minutes to the younger guys, but whatever we may think of Frank’s potential to evolve into a useful and maybe even quite good role player, he has been indisputably awful to this point in his NBA career.

FIBA may be the start of a breakout, or it may be that sometimes even very bad NBA players can string together 120 respectable minutes against mostly very weak competition. I really hope the coaching staff gives Frank a chance to show whether he has made some real strides, but if he continues to perform at the levels he has shown so far in the NBA and gets benched, I’m not sure it’s fair to the coaching staff to call it “jerking him around”. Guys performing at worst in the league type levels tend to find themselves out of the rotation.

Its OK to acknowledge that Frank has played well in FIBA and came up big the other day in what was definitely the biggest game of his career. It doesn’t mean you’re wrong about the pick being bad or about the probability of his future. Give the kid his props. 7 points in the last half of the 4th quarter with good defense to help turn the game around is a good showing for him. He does look stronger, more confident, and is shooting better. I hope he takes this into camp and can prove us wrong. Even Frank turning into a decent bench option for us would be huge for the progress of this team. Frank and Mitch on the court together is the start of a good defense.

And let’s also acknowledge something else. +/- wise he’s been the top Knick the last 2 seasons. I know that isn’t really a stat and there are a lot of variables with +/- but when its over 2 seasons playing with the garbage players we’ve had…its gotta mean something. He could be a case where his own stats aren’t going to be good but he makes his teammates better.

I’d love to see Frank, RJ, Knox, Randle, Mitch or Peyton, RJ, Frank, Randle, Mitch

The rotations on this team are going to be VERY interesting.

I really don’t agree with that take on Fizdale. Frank was hurt A LOT of last season. We have no idea what his minutes would have looked like post KP trade. We did get DSJ in that trade but we sent out Hardaway and Burke, so more minutes would have been on the table for him if he’d been healthy. But he wasn’t.

And let’s also acknowledge something else. +/- wise he’s been the top Knick the last 2 seasons. I know that isn’t really a stat and there are a lot of variables with +/- but when its over 2 seasons playing with the garbage players we’ve had…its gotta mean something.

this is a tempting conclusion, but it’s provably wrong that “its gotta mean something” or even that it very likely means something. the variation inherent in on/off data (what this is means really is how much the data can be bounced around by completely noisy factors) is so fucking enormous that it is unfortunately impossible to learn much of anything from 2600 minutes. for example look at these four players on/off over those two years:

………..MP …..net diff/100
Frank 2610 …..1.78
Dotson 2478 …..1.81
Burke 1474…..3.14
Jack 1578…..4.4

can we tell much of anything about those players from that list wisp of data?

(To answer my own quasi-question posed in #121):

Michael Kidd-Gilchrist’s extension with Charlotte is an example of a team investing long term in a player that was drafted on physical potential, showed lock-down defensive ability, but hadn’t yet become the player they envisioned. They rolled the dice and gave him an extension. He just exercised his players option this summer, probably to the chagrin of management, who would probably have preferred he opt out and sign with the Knicks this summer, like a few other lottery picks who took too long to develop and their drafting teams decided not to pull a Charlotte and double down: namely Elfrid Payton, Julius Randle, and Noah Vonleh.

What’s it called when you ignore 2400 minutes of NBA play and instead focus on 80 minutes of FIBA play to illustrate your point?

we can at least agree that once you learn the pistons cut michael beasley to sign joe johnson you have all the data you need to fully understand the pistons

And .Jowles, if you assume that players never improve, then a few minutes of FIBA time don’t count for much. Most of us don’t assume that, however, especially for twenty one year olds, so those minutes matter to us.

And .Jowles, if you assume that players never improve, then a few minutes of FIBA time don’t count for much. Most of us don’t assume that, however, especially for twenty one year olds, so those minutes matter to us.

I would be blind and illiterate to suggest such a thing. When his numbers are continuing to be total shit through Christmas, are you willing to accept that a small FIBA sample is probably not representative of much?

We have an open 2 way contract, I think. I’d give Wooten a shot based on college. He can absolutely block shots in the NBA. Hinton played DII ball, Peters is tiny and can’t shoot and VJ wasn’t even a good college player. Maybe Hinton is worth trying to develop, but Peters and VJ are wastes of time.

And, of course, it could be poor because he wasn’t ready to play in the NBA *and* he is being forced to play a style that he’s not built for by an incompetent coach who openly disdains european players and their style of play.

There’s a lot going on with Frank. That’s why the only reasonable conclusion I see is “be patient.”

Except, you know, that whole “final score” thing.

That same argument could be made for Frank’s strong +/- numbers.

What is it called when you act like 2400 minutes of NBA play acquired before a player turned 21 is definitive data?

Am I the one making dispositive claims about Frank’s development/ceiling on the back of a tiny ass sample in a completely different league? No? Not me? haha ok

This may or may not be a fascinating alternative to another Frank discussion, but this (rather bland) article got me thinking who I want to represent the US going forward.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/9/12/20861645/team-usa-next-generation-zion-williamson-world-cup

Tjarks identifies four locks, according to him: Zion, Trae, JJJ, and Devin Booker. Not sure I agree with that last one. Let’s assume you can’t change the minds of Harden and AD, and guys like Lillard and Beal who withdrew remain uninterested. Who would you build the team around?

Young seems perfect for international play and definitely holds down the starting PG for me. I think backing him up would be either Ja Morant or De’Aron Fox.

Donovan Mitchell played really well for Team USA. I’d look to him and Jamal Murray at the 2.

While the backcourt is easy to cast, it’s tough to find a big wing I like. Tatum and Brown can fuck off.

JJJ is going to be a stud. Is he a Center in international ball? Or are we looking at Wendall Carter, Jarrett Allen, and Mitchell Robinson to play the 5?

Marvin Bagley would be on the team, too.

i think putting mitch on would technically violate the geneva convention

This Mets team can hit. They can run some deadly lineups out there. Catching and throwing isn’t really their thing, but they can mash. Even Robinson Cano’s bum ass has been mashing.

If they made the playoffs they probably wouldn’t fare that well because sheesh that bullpen, but it’s been a fun season.

@147

+1

This is why the “Frank just needs to shoot 35% from three” thing is so annoying to me. He’s real far away from competent, even if he could hit 35% of his threes. He’d need to bump up his 3PT volume, figure out some way to average more than one free throw made per 36 minutes and learn how to convert at the rim at a non-pathetic rate. There aren’t enough 35% three point attempts that can make up for all of that other stuff.

Lottery picks that have had their 4th year options declined:

Joe Alexander
Earl Clark
Terrance Williams
Jordan Hill
Johnny Flynn
Hasheem Thabeet
Xavier Henry
Cole Aldrich
Al-Farouq Aminu
Wesley Johnson
Jammer Fredette
Jan Vesley
Kendall Marshall
Austin Rivers
Thomas Robinson
Anthony Bennet
Mario Hezonja
Jahlil Okafor
Dragan Bender
Marquis Chriss

None of them have turned into anything noteworthy (only Aminu turned into a useful player to a decent team), and all of them were demonstrably better at basketball than Frank Ntilikina in their first two years.

(*also note the disproportionate number of #8 picks on the list)

Weird to be in the position of defending Frank, but I think posts @147, @148 and @150 are built on certain assumptions that don’t necessarily apply to Frank. Each of those guys had a fatal flaw that made him a negative player by definition. Frank is certainly going to be a plus defender and has some aptitude on offense if he is employed correctly (read: not at PG, ever.)

His driving and finishing is not going to stay where it was, and he certainly looks like a guy who can hit 3’s at a decent clip at reasonable volume, so long as he stays off the ball. He also has a bit of a pick and pop game. His rebounding should also improve somewhat if he is coached properly.

What I like is that he has no chance of displacing either DSjr or Payton, i.e. he HAS to be played off the ball this season. As much as I’ve criticized the pick and his game, they should give him a good, long look this season, especially to see if he can stay healthy (a big problem for him.) His option will almost certainly be picked up, and that would make @150 moot. He was drafted younger than nearly all of those guys, so it’s really not useful to think of him as a 3rd year player.

I think the Knicks should pick up all four of Frank’s years. There is no immediate path to contention, so you let him develop to see where he’s at. And if you start getting 5/9 3PT games out of him while he locks down the opposing primary scorer, you lock him down before anyone notices.

But don’t sit here and tell me that this borderline NBGL 12th man is a legit NBA player for a future contender because of some anecdotally-good games in FIBA. That’s not right and I won’t have it.

If after 30 games he’s scoring .500 TS% and playing All-NBA defense, I will completely dismiss the past two seasons. I’m not going to do that for FIBA minutes.

People excited about Frank shooting 7 for 17 from the shorter FIBA 3pt line is really something.

I know this is an imperfect analogy and I will probably get killed for it.

I’m not going to kill you for it, but I am going to try to perfect it for you:

Let’s say when you start your business it’s the worst business that’s ever been started. And then you plug away at it for a year, and it doesn’t get better, in fact it gets worse. And, on top of that, there is a socialized government in your country that tells you you have to pay all sorts of taxes and minimum wages and also has a rule that after 4 years of business you need to decide whether to marry yourself to the business long term, or simply turn it in and take somebody else’s business from them.

I’m not saying it would be wrong to keep your business, but you’d better be pretty sure about that little three week spike in sales, because many, many, many competing businesses have been duped by that and ended up with $30,000,000 Jerome James businesses. Just saying.

Did anyone, like me, miss the Jameis Winston cringe from last year?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L2p9fldkZ0

uggggghfhhfhhghghhghghghghgh I can’t

The implied question in many of the posts in this thread is “Did Ntilikina improve over the summer”. Nobody has explicitly said this but it’s the obvious question when people cite his stats from the current FIBA. Of course it’s a small sample size, but it’s all we’ve go to look at. So we talk about it. Of course his previous two years of stats are lousy, but they only serve as a basis of comparison in thinking about whether he improved or not, they are a not a contradiction or argument against the current stats.

One thing about basketball stats is that management often has to make decisions about players even though they have only a small data set. This is the case for Ntilikina. No doubt Knick’s management would like more data before they decide on Frank’s option. But they don’t and won’t have it. Personally, I hope they pick up the option. I finally watched the France US game. Frank wasn’t great, but he did do some things on offense that were better than before, and they weren’t just shooting. He did some nice pick and rolls with Gobert and passed to him for easy baskets to the point where, when he did one again in the fourth quarter, both defenders went with Gobert and he immediately drained a dagger of a three pointer.

I say anyone who drinks scotch on a Thursday is okay by me.

Congrats, sir!! Good week, bad week…a fine single malt on the peaty side always hits the spot for me!

Of course the last two years of stats are relevant. But if you want to know if he improved over them, which he could have because summer is when players have time to work on their games, you have to use the limited FIBA data. I was replying to those who post comments that imply those two years of stats are the be all and end all of evaluating him. They are not.

@168

I’m sorry, but this makes no sense. The point about disregarding small sample sizes is that they don’t prove anything, they don’t allow is to know if he improved over those 2 years of a much bigger sample size. You don’t have to use the FIBA data as it is simply not conclusive to anything, it’s been like what, 150 minutes of gameplay? That would be the same if he sucked in FIBA, it wouldn’t prove or allow us to know anything more than we do.

The small sample size shows that, during this 150+ minutes, he is playing decently, that’s all it shows. It doesn’t mean that this improvement will be meaningful for the season or that it will stay consistent over the course of the next 2000 minutes he plays in the NBA. If you cut small 150+ minute sample sizes, I’m pretty sure you can make any scrub that has played consistent minutes in the NBA look like he’s good, I mean, Jerome James got a 30 million contract out of a 200 minute sample size in the playoffs.

The only thing that matters is if Ntilikina can play at this level consistently over a much longer period.

I haven’t laughed so hard at a comment in awhile, thanks @169

got me thinking about Nick Collison — without peeking, everyone take guesses on how many seasons he played

From December 9th through December 14th, 2017, Frank Ntilikina played 103 minutes against four NBA teams. He shot 14-33 from the field, 7-13 from 3 point range, 3-4 from the FT line, grabbed 15 rebounds, dished out 21 assists, nabbed 7 steals, and tallied 38 points while the Knicks went 3-1 during that stretch.

That night, one of the regular KB posters and resident Frank optimist wrote: “I wouldn’t do a Frank for Kemba [trade] straight up. I think there’s a 10% chance Frank is the best all around player on the team in 2-3 years. He’s consistent shooting, learning to defend without fouling, and a few less rookie errors away from being very good right now. A break out could happen later this year. It would be insane if it did at 19, but it could.”

Needless to say, Frank Ntilikina reverted back to his usual form, and 18 months later the same folks are pining over an almost identical run of lipsticked mediocrity.

Esp 71 – Aus 71
Overtime !
Bow WOW !

Marc.

The Frank-o-sphere is alive!!!

“I wouldn’t do a Frank for Kemba [trade] straight up. I think there’s a 10% chance Frank is the best all around player on the team in 2-3 years. He’s consistent shooting, learning to defend without fouling, and a few less rookie errors away from being very good right now. A break out could happen later this year. It would be insane if it did at 19, but it could.”

If that wasn’t me, it should have been.

I don’t expect people here to agree with an assessment like that because everyone here is primarily focused on his current poor rating on boxscore models I disagree with.

But I still think he’s got a chance to become a cross between Patrick Beverly and Draymond Green where his defensive and playmaking impact on the court overwhelms his limited scoring ability. He has to stay healthy, be developed and used properly, and work his ass off on 3 point shooting.

I’d take a 6′ 6” or 6′ 7″ Patrick Beverly that switches 3-4 positions and locks down the best guards in the league all day every day!!!

His defense is impactful already and his defensive upside is elite.

He’s a consistent 3 pointer and a few years of experience away from becoming a player like that. So when he’s hitting 3s and looking a little better going to the basket, I’m dreaming of what he can become and not praying he fails so I can say I was right like the faux Knicks fans here.

What’s it called when you ignore 2400 minutes of NBA play and instead focus on 80 minutes of FIBA play to illustrate your point?

Are you going for the record of straw men raised in a single thread? Not a single human has said Frank has played well offensively and quite objectively he has been putrid.

But most players never enter the NBA at 18.5 He is a college aged player who has elite defensive skills and is a willing and better than average passer at this young stage. That’s what the argument is

I can’t believe how much older and different Luis Scola looks. Still balling though.

Frank had a good 3rd quarter from what I saw. Hit a good three and finished a strong drive and played solid defense. France has allowed way too many offensive rebounds.

And then just nailed a beautiful jumper dribbling to his left. Not sure I have seen him hit that shot as a Knick.

Then a bad turnover on a pick and roll with Gobert.

Argentina is a tough team. Feels like a scrappy mid-major that’s better than the big conference team…

Scola FTW

Thank god i stopped gambling.
I would have lost my house during this tournament !

France sucked.
Frank f…..

HUGE RESPECT to Argentina.
That was A’ Class Team Ball.
Hope they win the WC.

While accepting that it was a small sample size, I think this tournament supports the arguments of some (myself included) that the kid would look better outside of Fizdale’s cracked basketball system that only values aggression and looking for your own shot.

I’m not willing to write him off until I see him play a full basketball season at a proper age in a proper system.

Scola and Marc Gasol putting up vintage performances, this will be a very fun finals. Argentina never backs down from anyone and I really think they have a shot against the more talented Spanish team.

All that said, Frank has played well–credit to him. You want to see Frank play well on this level, but it doesn’t justify throwing out your prior or all the previous evidence.

Also, is it just me or does Scola look a lot better with the haircut than the mop he used to have? Always respected his game, he deserves the praise.

French Knicks Pod
@FrenchKnicksPod
Just read something interesting.

By a NBA Scout :

“If Frank Ntilikina is unrestricted Free Agent next summer, we will sign him for sure in our franchise, our coaching staff have a great system & Frank will fit perfect with us”.

I’d rather trade him before the season starts. Fizdale doesn’t like him and will tank any perceived value he currently has. Frank’s never going to work out here. We don’t have the patience.

(And is there anything more messed up than a team with no visible path to contention lacking the patience for player development?)

Early Bird, sounds like you’re advocating for the Tim Hardaway Jr method of player development.

Early Bird, sounds like you’re advocating for the Tim Hardaway Jr method of player development.

Tim Hardaway was missing the fairly important “being good” part of the strategy. Also Hardaway was overpaid even for what promise he did show. In my estimation, Frank needs a few years before he even has a chance to play well in the NBA. I think it’s perfectly possible to let him develop overseas for several years and bring him back before his value skyrockets too much. Like many people have said, he doesn’t hit his peak for another 3 years. If he ever does make the jump, it may take until then. If he looks like he might make the jump, then sign him at 23. If not, then you didn’t waste three years.

Again, I’d be okay keeping him for multiple years for cheap. We currently don’t have him for multiple years on the cheap. We have him for 1+1 for around $6 million. If we do get him for multiple years, he may breakout just as that contract is ending anyways. 4 years @ $3 million per puts him at 25 and we’re upping his salary once he’s hit his prime. If we can sign him on the cheap when he’s 23 for 4 years we have him locked up during his prime on a high value contract.

frank isn’t a value trap he’s a busted ipo. sometimes they are homeruns when the renters skip town just before some strategic buyer tries their hand at bottom fishing. other times not. i would play frank significant minutes and keep his option. one of the minor but real problems of this offseason is that a front office needs to navigate the reality of their coach. if you bring in guys like ellington and bullock and already have two point guards and 3 or 4 young wings ahead of a guy like frank, you make it very hard to get him on the floor unless you are highly aligned with your coach. of course maybe they are, but just not in a frankophile sort of way.

I’m dreaming of what he can become and not praying he fails so I can say I was right like the faux Knicks fans here.

Strat, go ahead and cram this up your ass.

You seem to root for a lot of players and coaches and executives to fail so you can brag about how right you are, and you also shade a lot of things in a way that is favorable to Phil Jackson so you can prove how right you were about him too.

Don’t pull that “if you’re not a pollyanna you’re not a fan” shit here. You’re better than that. I thought Frank was a decent pick and I was embarrassingly wrong, and I can own up to that because at the end of the day I care about the truth more than I care about being right on a blog.

I still think he’s got a chance to become a cross between Patrick Beverly and Draymond Green where his defensive and playmaking impact on the court overwhelms his limited scoring ability. He has to stay healthy, be developed and used properly, and work his ass off on 3 point shooting.

I’d take a 6? 6” or 6? 7? Patrick Beverly that switches 3-4 positions and locks down the best guards in the league all day every day!!!

It’s interesting that both the players you think he could become like were second round draft picks, therefore cheap to develop, and came into the league many years older than Ntilikina did. And Patrick Beverly, in his first two years, looked like Michael Jordan offensively compared to what Frank Ntilikina has done.

The Knicks will have to spend $27,000,000 just to get him to the same age that Patrick Beverly was when he was a rookie. At that point the year would be 2022, and after 28 years of not extending their draft picks past their rookie contracts, Frank Ntilikina, with his long torso and Patrick Beverly game, is going to break the streak?

As someone that has followed the Knicks closely since the late 1980, I would find it fitting that of all the players to invest their heart and soul into over the past 28 years, the franchise would choose Frank Ntilikina, with his historically terrible stats. But I think the chances of that are slim, and that the Knicks should find the Stratomatic of General Managers out there and deal him while his FIBA stock is soaring.

And to be clear, I’m not saying that Frank won’t ever improve and become a useful player. I am saying that by the time he improves and becomes useful, it will most certainly be for another team, which makes it kind of pointless to dream big about him as Knick fans.

The smart money has been Frank breaking out as a Spur in 2024….

I think I just referred to myself as the smart money….

Respect to Shaun Livingston, who just retired. I was a big fan of him and I was stunned that he ended up having the career he had. One of the best stories in NBA history.

(And is there anything more messed up than a team with no visible path to contention lacking the patience for player development?)

This and what ptmilo said are the heart of the problem. We have a team full of hired guns most of whom will probably be out to improve their individual stats. That makes it harder to develop Ntilikina.

That said, I think it wouldn’t be impossible for Frank to outplay DSJ for the second point guard spot if we had a coach with a different style. But we don’t, so I predict he’s gone soon.

Is that quote a slam on European players specifically or is he just saying that winning a championship in a euro league is not the same as winning an NBA championship. That quote is certainly not diplomatic but its also not false.

Winning an nba title with 3-5 hall of famers in your team ain’t more impressive to me than winning any title on any league with youngs & scraps against big budget teams.
If Fiz is unable to develop our young assets and build a winning culture maybe he needs a trip to Europe to learn a few things about bball development….id suggest him taking a seminar by Duda Ivkovic.

Sure, he played Mario. And there’s no way he would have hated Kristaps if he were here scoring 27ppg. I’m happy to amend my position:

There is a style of basketball – one that is predominant in Europe and that Frank fits into – which Fizdale openly disdains. You can see it in his quote and you can see it in his rotation decisions.

Thus, whether Fizdale “hates european players” or not (an over the top statement, I admit), I am confident stating that Fizdale is not a good coach for Frank, and extremely confident in my belief that he will bury Frank on the bench this year. Therefore we should trade him now if he has any value after this tournament.

I will never understand why reub tried to pass for a soccer mom for a while

Iso-Zo should buy Fiz a new car every month

I will never understand why reub tried to pass for a soccer mom for a while

Maybe the joke is on us and a soccer mom pretended to be reub.

this is what the commentators had to say after Frank drove to the basket and scored on a tough shot.

“I think the Knicks have potentially a really special player.

Knickerblogger community: presents 2500 minutes of evidence stating the Knicks don’t have a special player.

Stratomatic: posts the opinion of a commentator whose name he doesn’t know stating the Knicks do have a special player.

Shall we call this debate a draw?

Iso-Zo should buy Fiz a new car every month

lol

Shall we call this debate a draw?

You have some very fine people on both sides

@237
I know man.
Nba is the best league for sure.
But let’s not call it a great accomplishment getting an Nba title while being the favourite to win it even before the season started.
What’s the difficulty ? Staying healthy ?
Even me, you or my kitten could get the nba title with the Heat or the GSW teams on their prime.

92 Dream Team fucking their opponents wasn’t an accomplishment.
Just a supremacy parade.

What that supposed Fizdale quote means (to me) is that just because you were a good player in Europe or played on a championship team doesn’t mean you’re owed something or have accomplished anything in the NBA. And he’s not wrong about that. It doesn’t mean european player suck or aren’t man enough or anything like that. Just that its a higher level of competition to win a title.

And teams like The Warriors and The Heatles don’t just happen overnight and aren’t exactly easy to put together. The Heat lost 2 of the 4 championships they competed in. The Warriors lost 2 of the 5 they competed in. The Bulls won 6 titles with Jordan but it took Jordan until his 8th or 9th season to reach that level of dominanace. Shaq and Kobe 3peated but it took bringing in Phil and other key role players and Shaq reaching his peak for that to happen. Its never “easy.”

Well there’s a thrice-microwaved hot take that’s also a very bad take

One more for the back seats:

Patrick McCaw is a 3 times Nba Champion.
Wow !
What an accomplishment !

Answer: to lend some “female” credibility when he vomited his latest misogynistic bullshit onto this site’s logs

Even if the literal meaning of the quote is something innocuous, it definitely gives the impression of contempt for European basketball.

forgot to record the game this morning…there’s a re-broadcast on espn (not sure exactly which channel) of our young fiba warrior, frank’s game…

turns out – i didn’t really miss watching all those games much at all – and, a hearty fuck you espn plus…

Fizdale was just repeating what common sense often dictates about European players and their leagues, I mean, people still genuinely think college teams have a chance against teams like Barcelona and Madrid for example. I don’t think its anything that proves he hates Europeans, outside from well, if your coach is just regurgitating reddit level takes when dealing with superstars, he might just be a hack, but we kinda already understood that from the shit he was saying during last season. I think he’s just bad at his job, which is a bigger problem for us in this case.

I don’t generally respond to Giana or Knew Your Nicks because they are both incomprehensible morons of the nth degree.

if your coach is just regurgitating reddit level takes when dealing with superstars, he might just be a hack, but we kinda already understood that from the shit he was saying during last season. I think he’s just bad at his job, which is a bigger problem for us in this case.

yikes, that sounds frighteningly close to the truth…

I’m gonna stay positive though and think that – maybe that guy mike miller can really coach…

@258
Didn’t see that coming !
Looks like losing people’s attention for a couple of days can really hurt someone’s ego….to the point he loses his cool.
Best Wishes that you ll be soon back doing all the things you love.

I call dibs on spotting Fizdale’s ineptitude 🙂

@262 my recollection is that he owned up to making mistakes with Gasol. He did it in a clunky way, but he did take some responsibility. Gasol took his share of responsibility as well, and the two have apparently patched things up.

I’m not a Fiz fan, generally speaking. He’s too much of a gabby preacher in my book. However, it’s hard to read anything into last year. His job was to tank into the top lottery spot and he did that splendidly. I disagree that he prefers iso play over ball movement. I disagree that he has anything against European players.

I vehemently disagree that he mishandled Frank or has any bias against him for any reason. he averaged 21mpg, same as he did his rookie year for a different coach, and he was equally putrid both years, as in league-worst putrid. He did not belong in the NBA at all, so if anything, coach was stupid playing him in a league where he was physically (and skill-wise) overmatched to the point where injury and embarrassment was inevitable. Again, he was drafted 2 years too early (who said “He’s 2 years away from being 2 years away!” about Caboclo?) and way too high but that’s water under the bridge.

@262 sorry, NYN, that was overly harsh. I just think your posts are uninspiring. You try to be clever by speaking in metaphors and it just doesn’t work for me.

And you’re clearly not in reub’s class of being a pox on this site. Sorry for including you in the same sentence.

@268
Apology accepted.
The truth is that i use metaphors as tools to communicate truth/facts/beliefs but its not always easy to Succeed on that especially not on my mother language.
Sorry
And I find many posts in here tiring, narcissistic, hateful, dumb or negative in general but that’s not a reason to characterise/insult their writers.

Would you like a better ‘world’ ?
Hit the posts, not the posters.

Fighting through screens is a lost art in today’s switch-heavy NBA. Clyde sometimes talks about how Willis would get ornery if he didn’t fight over a screen…to paraphrase, “I ain’t chasin’ no guards around out there!” Now the emphasis seems to be on guarding multiple positions. Knox was not particularly good at guarding any position, so fighting over screens would not matter much with him.

As for Frank, he’s actually pretty good on switches so it all depends on whether the other defender can handle the switch. But I don’t care what kind of shape you’re in, if you keep running into bigs on screens, you aren’t going to last long, especially when you have long-ass arms that will eventually get your shoulders wrenched out of joint. See: Ron Baker

In my summation, I think this is the year we’ll learn a lot about Fiz. I don’t think you can totally discount those who are skeptic of his coaching abilities, but for me I can’t judge much from a clear tank year.

Self promo plug: here’s a sample of my work with our Athletics Department. My interviewing skills are quite rusty; it’s my first voice recording of any kind in over a decade. I also began maintaining the school’s athletic site in the spring.

Thanks, geo!
It’s been a real ordeal these first six months – my designed position is Sports Information Specialist, but because our department secretary retired in the Spring I have to pick up that slack as well until we hire another one (remember that I essentially work for the gub-ment – they don’t do quick hires). So I’ve just been on a steep learning curve.
The latter half of this week has been the first time in awhile I haven’t felt overwhelmed. Oh, and that same coach you heard in that interview is the Laker fan who on team #lolKnicks who just knew Kawhi to the Lakers was done. Doesn’t stop him from trolling me occasionally.